The Freeway Phantom Murders PT 2

Summary

Buried Bones Podcast – "The Freeway Phantom Murders PT 2"

Release Date: March 4, 2026
Hosts: Kate Winkler Dawson (journalist), Paul Holes (retired cold case investigator)
Podcast Network: Exactly Right & iHeartPodcasts

---

Episode Overview

This episode continues the exploration of the chilling, unsolved case of the Freeway Phantom—a serial killer who targeted young Black girls in Washington D.C. and Maryland in the early 1970s. Kate and Paul revisit the known victims, dissect investigative efforts of the era, discuss prime suspects (including Robert Elwood Askins), and reflect on the challenges that hinder progress in resolving the case. Using both period and modern forensic perspectives, they consider links, contradictions, and the legacy of fear and trauma left by decades of unanswered questions.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Summary of the Case So Far

• Victimology & Pattern

  • Young Black girls (ages 10–16), abducted while on foot (e.g., running errands), generally found clothed but often shoeless.
  • Bodies dumped near roads—sometimes in proximity to where previous victims were discovered.

    "He's really not hiding the bodies. He's doing what I call a dump and run with these bodies...there is a chance that he's really wanting these bodies to be found." – Paul (05:57)

  • Notable redressing of victims, evident sexual motivation (confirmed or suspected sexual assaults), communication with victims' families (e.g., victim allowed to call home).

• Escalation & Details

  • The timeline between disappearance and discovery of bodies began to shrink, suggesting increased killer confidence, risk-taking, or urgency.

    "It feels like they're getting closer, but how many more kids are going to have to die for them to figure out who is doing this." – Kate (04:47)

  • Notable: More details emerging in later cases, e.g., make and color of suspect’s car.

---

2. Fifth Victim – Brenda Denise Woodard (Nov 16, 1971) [(07:31–13:04)]

• Discovery
  • Found off Route 202 near Prince George’s County Hospital.
  • Fully clothed but with clothes in disarray (inside-out sweater, missing buttons, misplaced wig).
  • Wig discarded nearby; Paul maps the possible movements of the perpetrator based on body and wig locations.

    "He dumps her body. As he's driving away...he's going, 'oh, shit, her wig is still in here.' Now he comes up to that median, dumps it off, and then continues on." – Paul (11:28)

• The Taunting Note
  • Handwritten note in coat pocket: "This is tantamount to my insensitivity to people, especially women. I will admit the others when you catch me—if you can. Freeway Phantom."

    "I'll admit to the others when you catch me, if you can. So that's a challenge." – Paul (13:33)

  • Link to the Zodiac killer suggested—public taunting and craving of notoriety.
• Handwriting Analysis
  • Debate whether Brenda herself wrote the note under duress; missing school notebooks.

    "Handwriting comparison is one of those really loose types of, if you want to call it a science...I'd want to see her examples of writing." – Paul (22:22)

---

3. Victim Profile Shift: The Murder of Brenda Denise Woodard

• First apparent deviation from established pattern: Brenda Woodard (age 18) physically fought back—defensive wounds, broken neck, was stabbed (likely by a left-handed person, per wounds).

  "She fought. There's a lot of force being used during this combat between her and the offender...she's probably the most physically capable of all the victims so far in this series." – Paul (20:14)

• Forensic analysis found both Black and Caucasian hairs—but may be explained by investigator contamination.

---

4. Investigative Efforts & Criminal Profiling (23:08–25:46)

• Period criminal profiling suggested a sociopath, possibly suffering recent trauma or with an absent father figure—conclusions Paul finds too generalized to be operationally useful.

  "All these characteristics that they're saying about this freeway Phantom is something that's internal. Nothing I can use to narrow the suspect pool." – Paul (24:39)

• Renewal in public and law enforcement pressure; increased FBI involvement.

---

5. Sixth Victim – Diane Denise Williams (Sept 6, 1972) [(26:38–34:01)]

• Found near where earlier victims were discovered.
• Wet clothing, strangulation, presence of semen, green synthetic fibers.
• Case overlap: Diane had just visited her boyfriend, left on a bus, witnessed getting off at an unusual stop with "two hoodlums."

---

6. Fiber Evidence and Investigative Links

• Persistent presence of green synthetic fibers (now believed to be bath mat fibers, not car upholstery as previously suspected).

  "If they're saying it's a bath mat, then I believe that." – Paul (55:00)

• Importance of fiber uniqueness and risk of cross-contamination.

---

7. Green Vega Gang Theory (34:34–39:46)

• Police explored involvement of the "Green Vega Gang" after prison informant “Fatsy” implicated gang members (and described crime scene details).
• Paul and Kate express skepticism: Possibly a fabrication for a plea deal. No solid evidence aligns the gang’s profile or practices with the Freeway Phantom’s MO.

  "I'm not buying this at all...I've literally seen authorities during interviews feed those details to the person." – Paul (36:54)

---

8. Prime Suspect Focus: Robert Elwood Askins (39:54–65:01)

Background & Offenses

• Linked due to proximity (St. Elizabeth’s Mental Hospital) and history of violent offenses—dating back to the 1930s.

• Notorious for misogynistic violence, multiple killings and assaults (stabbing, poison, strangulation).

• Pattern of abductions, forced bathing/cleaning of victims, and in at least one assault, making the victim write a self-incriminating note.

  "There’s some overlap with the previous cases...the taking back to a residence, you have the sexual assault, the cleanup, forcing her to take a bath, and then forces her to write a note." – Paul (42:42)

• Crucial Differences:

  • Later attacks on older victims; survivors.
  • Assaults occurred after the Freeway Phantom’s known crimes—age and timeline present some doubts.

• Detective Davis’s investigation yielded circumstantial, but not definitive, links (e.g., Askins was left-handed, off work during killings, and had a legal doc containing the word “tantamount”).

  "I'm not blown away by that [finding the word 'tantamount' in docs] as an item of evidence." – Paul (54:11)

---

9. Missed and Lost Evidence; Ongoing Frustration

• As of 2001, at least 95 suspects identified but no resolution.
• Reward still offered; most crucial physical evidence lost or destroyed, leaving few leads for new forensic testing.

  "Without that objective physical evidence...you can sit there and develop circumstantial cases...and you'll be wrong." – Paul (61:01)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Victimology:

  "It's not unusual to find offenders that committed similar types of crimes...you have to find something that ties them to the Freeway Phantom cases." – Paul (50:00)

• On Old-School Profiling:

  "Pretty specific without being specific at all." – Kate, on vague profiles and suspect psychology (24:21)

• On Evidence Integrity:

  "We ended up finding evidence from old cases when our property room had to do a complete inventory...That is the type of effort that would be needed." – Paul (62:30)

• On the Toll of Unresolved Cases:

  "It has an impact on the people that are working the case...you know, the professionals that are actually working these cases just like this Detective Jenkins, I'm sure this has had a massive impact on her as a person." – Paul (65:05)

• On the “Denise” Theory:

  "Almost all have Denise in their names...So there is a lot of theory, of course, running around in the 70s that he has a fixation or a trigger around the name Denise. How would he know these girls’ middle names?" – Kate (57:39)

---

Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Content | |:-------------:|:-------------------| | 02:56 | Brief recap, case summary by Paul | | 03:19–05:57 | Review of victim pattern and escalating circumstances | | 07:31–13:04 | Detailed discussion of Brenda Woodard & taunting note | | 20:14–22:22 | Analysis of victim resistance and forensics | | 23:08–25:46 | Profilers & psychological speculation | | 26:38–34:01 | Discovery and investigation of the sixth victim, Diane Williams | | 34:34–39:46 | The Green Vega Gang theory | | 39:54–65:01 | Deep dive on Robert Elwood Askins as a suspect | | 57:39–58:36 | The “Denise” name theory among the victims | | 60:57–65:52 | Evidence loss, lack of closure, and its impact |

---

Theories, Challenges, and Unanswered Questions

• Main Suspects Explored:

  • Gang theory dismissed due to lack of psychological match and plausible methodology.
  • Askins remains strong if circumstantial candidate due to MO overlap, but timeline, age, and lack of evidence are problems.

• Challenges for Modern Investigators:

  • Destruction and loss of physical evidence is the chief obstacle to closure.
  • Open status of the case blocks researchers and the public from viewing official files.

• Enduring Community Trauma & Hope for Justice:

  • Lasting legacy of fear, pain, and frustration for DC’s Black community.
  • Ongoing (if slim) hope that modern forensic technology may one day allow for new breaks in the case.

---

Episode Takeaway

Kate and Paul illuminate just how confounding and frustrating the Freeway Phantom case remains: an elusive, calculating predator; plausible—but never certain—suspects; and a legacy complicated by institutional failures to preserve evidence and prioritize Black victims. Their message is clear: only diligence, luck, and perhaps future forensic breakthroughs keep hope alive for closing this dark chapter.

---

Next Week: A new case on Buried Bones.

Transcript

[Amica Insurance Announcer]

This is exactly right.

[Public Investing Announcer]

Shake it up with vital proteins, collagen, and protein shake. It's a high quality, ready to drink shake with 30 grams of protein and 10 grams of collagen to support healthy hair, skin, nails, bones and joints. With 0 grams of added sugar, no artificial sweeteners, and absolutely no carrageenan. It's a clean, delicious way to fuel your day so you don't just age gracefully, you age powerfully. Vital proteins stay vital. Learn [e-mail] this is Matt Rogers from

[Matt Rogers]

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Ryan Reynolds]

This is Bowen Yang from Los Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Matt Rogers]

Hey, so what if you could boost the WI fi to one of your devices when you need it most?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Because Xfinity WI fi can. And what if your WI fi could fix itself before there's even really a problem? Xfinity is so reliable, it does that, too.

[Matt Rogers]

What if your WI fi had parental instincts? Xfinity WI Fi is part nanny, part ninja, protecting your kids while they're online.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And finally, what if your WI fi was, like, the smartest WI fi?

[Matt Rogers]

Yeah, it's WI fi that is so smart, it makes everything work better together.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Bottom line, Xfinity is smart and reliable. You deserve the peace of mind of having WI fi that's got your back.

[Matt Rogers]

Xfinity. Imagine that.

[Jacob Goldstein]

This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need to check out. Odoo at O D O O dot com. That's O D O O dot com.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.

[Paul Holes]

And I'm Paul Holz, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

[Paul Holes]

And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to insights to old mysteries.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens.

[Paul Holes]

Some are solved and some are cold. Very cold.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is buried bones. Hey, Paul.

[Paul Holes]

Hey, Kate. How are you?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm doing well. I think you should give the summary of The Freeway Phantom Killer. Because people love it when you do the summary. They like it when I do the summary, but they love it when you do the summary. I don't know. I choose. I pick and choose what to be offended by. I'm not offended by that. So why don't you do the heavy lift and do our summary for everyone

[Paul Holes]

at the point where you left off last last time? We have an offender that apparently has been abducting and killing younger black girls ranging in age from roughly 10 up to 16 years old. He appears to be contacting the victims while they're on foot, like they've been sent to go to the store, whether it be a Safeway grocery store or like a 711 convenience store. Appears that some of the victims are possibly taken back to a residence or maybe a work location or someplace where he is holding them captive for a period of time. He is killing them through strangulation, whether manual strangulation, ligature strangulation, or a combination of both. Appears that he is consistently redressing these victims. So they are found with their clothes on. Most of the victims, three of the four victims don't have their shoes on when their bodies are found. And then the fourth victim has shoes on with another shoe left behind. And authorities think that that other shoe possibly belonged to the second victim, which is a very interesting aspect. There's no question that these are sexually motivated crimes. And these crimes appear to be taking place in the general D.C. upper Maryland area. How's that?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You did great. A couple of interesting points. I know you want to talk about the apparent killer. Ledge Killer has been calling a couple of the families, and he allowed Brenda, one of the victims, to call her family, too, which we said was pretty unusual. It feels like the discoveries versus the kidnappings are getting closer and closer together. So, you know, we remember Darlenia was so decomposed, they really, you know, couldn't even identify how she was killed. And then we have, you know, the third victim, Brenda, who went missing on July 27, and then her body was found the next day. That might have just been luck because it was in a grassy shoulder of Route 50. And then the last victim that we've talked about, who is Nino, you know, she was discovered a little more than an hour and a half after she was last seen getting into a blue car. And we seem to be getting more details, like a blue Volkswagen with a yellow stripe is pretty specific. So it feels like they're getting closer, but how many more kids are going to have to die for them? To figure out who is doing this.

[Paul Holes]

Right. You know, And I think when it comes to, you know, where he's placing the bodies, you know, they're not being placed too far off the road. And you think about some of the younger kids, they're not going to be huge individuals. They're not going to be a lot of weight. So I'm assuming an adult man would be able to, if he needed to, really carry them off the beaten path, so to speak, to further hide the body. He's really not hiding the bodies. He's doing what I call a dump and run with these bodies. That may just be out of risk management, not wanting to loiter too long where he's dumping the bodies, but also there is a chance that he's really wanting these bodies to be found. And we know he makes a phone call to. I think it was in the second case on the Darlenia case. And he's making a phone call saying, you know, I've killed this girl and her body is in this general area. It just took law enforcement like 11 days to finally find her. And she had been, you know, dumped right next to her first victim. Had been dumped?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Basically, yeah. Yeah. In Darlenia's case, he called the mother and said, I killed your daughter. And then he threatened Dorothy Wheeler, who was that community organizer. And then Brenda, the third victim, calls home twice. And we have so far not heard anything about Nino, the fourth victim. But we are gonna be coming up on a fifth victim where we take a slight detour from what we've seen before. And then we actually have some good pictures for you to look at, I think.

[Paul Holes]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So they make no forward motion on Nino Yates, the 12 year old who had been seen about an hour and a half before they discover her body. And she had been dry and it was. So this feels like it's getting closer and closer. We already talked about the man exposing himself. It seems like a different person. You don't know, but this seems pretty risky for a killer who is, in some ways taking a lot of risks by what you just said, you know, leaving these girls in areas where they're going to be found. But at the same time, he seems to be, you know, he's washing them and he. Some of them. And he's trying to be clever at the same time. So it's unusual. I know. Let's get to the next incident. What we have, okay? So when Nino is kidnapped, that is October 1st, and we have a month where nothing happens. And they try to investigate. And I Said at this point, the FBI is involved. So on November 16th, we're still in 1971. It is 4:45 in the morning and there is another young black girl who was found off of Route 202 near Prince George's County Hospital. This girl's body is lying face up. Her eyes are open. Her arms are stretched out with the right arm thrown over her head. Okay. She is fully clothed. She has her shoes on, although her clothes are in a state of disarray. Her sweater is inside out and there is a hole in the front of the sweater. Her skirt is not zipped. There are buttons missing from her skirt and her dark coat. Her wig, she was wearing a wig. Is abandoned in a median about 30 yards from her body. So I have photos. Photo one is going to point to the area where she was found. So this is off Route 202. And then the second photo shows where her wig is found.

[Paul Holes]

Okay. So the first photo is an aerial photo taken of the freeway. It's showing an interchange and there is what I'm assuming the hospital in the backdrop. And then there's a large arrow that is pointing at a location right next to. It's a curved area of the street that's not feeding directly up onto the freeway. So that curved area of the street goes down to what appears to be a primary, a very large road, but not a freeway at least. It almost looks like it says it's Route 202. So this is sort of like a road where her body was found is just right off of a. It's a pretty major road, but it's not a prime arterial road. And it almost looks like the area where her body was. Was deposited is possibly. It's. There's a forested hilly area in that area. But along the stretch where her body's found looks like it's mostly just brush and trees. So it's a pretty good location to hide a body, especially if he's taking the body deep into these. The trees. But he doesn't do that. He's depositing it close to the side of the road. So that's a purposeful choice on his part.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. And if you look at the second photo, so that's a close up of the area and I'm trying to figure out where there's a Baltimore sign and a Washington sign and it's the third photo that shows the wig and you can actually see the wig where it's at the median. So I still have a hard time kind of piecing together where this stuff is and all of that, but.

[Paul Holes]

Oh, I can tell you where it's at. Okay, so in the. In the first photo where her body is found, if somebody is driving in the direction going down on as. As the photo is, you come to that intersection, and you can see the median that's right there. That's got the right shape. And then you can see the building to the left. That's where her wig is found, is on that median. And so he dumps her body. And I'm determining his, you know, direction of travel is he is driving on the side of the. In which her body is found. He continues driving down, comes to that intersection, and of course, you have to stop there. Right. And now he's dumping the wig out. Out of the driver's side window. So it's possible he dumps her body. And as he's driving away, he's going, oh, shit, her wig is still in here. Now he comes up to that median, dumps it off, and then continues on. And after that, don't know which direction he takes, you know, but there is a little bit of reconstructive information in terms of. Is going on between the body dump location and where the wig is found.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So let's see. They are searching through her clothing. Remember, she's fully clothed. They're. This gets so weird. In the pocket of her coat is a handwritten note, and it says, this is tantamount to my insensitivity. Written incorrectly to people, especially women. I will admit the others when you catch me, if you can. Exclamation point. Freeway Phantom.

[Paul Holes]

Okay, So I think it's also. It's important to point out when this case is taking place. 1971, at this point, we haven't crossed into 1972 with any of the crimes up to this point. 1971, what was the big case that had the nation completely riveted out there in the Bay Area?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

California Zodiac. Right.

[Paul Holes]

What was the Zodiac doing?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

He was writing notes.

[Paul Holes]

Exactly. And had this moniker. Right. Like Zodiac, and is doing these taunts to the police and is trying to capture the public's attention and keeping everybody in fear. Well, I think this guy has most certainly got to be aware of the Zodiac case, even though it's all the way across the country. And now he's seeing that he's got his own moniker. You know, he is liking the fact that he's getting some notoriety, and now he's leaving. A taunt, if you will. I'll admit to the others when you catch me, if you can. You know, so That's a challenge. So it's, it's interesting and I often pay attention to handwriting and this, this looks like the handwriting of somebody who's got some serious issues.

[Matt Rogers]

This is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Ryan Reynolds]

This is Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. What if your WI fi was more than just WI fi? What if your WI fi made everything in your whole house just work together better?

[Matt Rogers]

Well, Xfinity WI Fi pretty much does exactly that. It's powered by their best, most elite high performing tech.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Allow us to paint a very realistic example. Everyone in your house, everyone is on their devices at the exact same time. Gaming, working, swiping.

[Paul Holes]

Right?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Because of course they are. And the finale of your favorite show of all time of the week is on at exact same moment. Well, you can boost the WI Fi to your device with Xfinity.

[Matt Rogers]

And have you ever asked yourself, what if my WI fi could keep watch over my kids for me? Well, probably not, because that's a weird thing to ask yourself. But Xfinity WI Fi has parenting skills, even if you sometimes forget yours. Xfinity's like, don't worry, I'll monitor the WI Fi.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It's completely proactive, fixing issues before they even happen. Bottom line, Xfinity is smart and reliable. You deserve the peace of mind of having WI fi that's got your back.

[Matt Rogers]

Xfinity.

[Amica Insurance Announcer]

Imagine that at Amica Insurance, your time and peace of mind matter. Bundle your auto and home coverage with us and enjoy savings that make life a little easier. As a mutual insurance company, we're built for our customers. We prioritize your needs and are here for you when you need us. Amica Empathy is our best policy. Visit amica.com and get a quote today.

[Public Investing Announcer]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor supply growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosures

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

okay, so there is a missing person report out. So they look at children, they look at adults. And this is an 18 year old and her name is Brenda Denise. So this is another Brenda. I mean certainly by coincidence I'm sure. But remember we have another Brenda. She is a teenager. She's interested in fashion and music and you know, it sounds like she wants to be kind of maybe an elementary school educator. She was kicked out though of her high school. This was called Springard. She threw an empty beer can at her ex boyfriend so they kicked her out for that. And she had been taking night classes at Cordoza High School. Here's what happened that day. At 6:45pm on Nov. 15, Brenda left her parents home in Baltimore and she went to Cardoza High School where she's taking the night classes, which is in Washington D.C. she does her classes at 9:45. She and a friend from class go to Ben's Chili bowl for dinner and then they're there for about 40 minutes and then they both get on a bus. So she Transfers at the 8th and H Street northeast stop and she never gets home. So the last time her friend or anybody saw her was at this transfer.

[Paul Holes]

Now you know what I'm trying to figure out is where does the offender contact her? Well, he could contact her at the transfer station after she has separated from her friend or he could contact her. If this bus is, you know, going all the way out to Baltimore, then he's contacting her as she's getting off the bus to maybe walk home. So where her body is found? Where is her body found?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So we have conflicting information about whether she lived in D.C. or whether she lived in Maryland. But the reality is that her body is found in Maryland off of 202. Now we know who she is. She is taken to the Maryland medical examiner for the office and this is, you know what the results are. Violently raped. Her neck is bruised and broken and she has defensive wounds on her hands and blood under her nails, you know, which means a struggle. There are hairs from a black person and a Caucasian individual that are found on her coat, on her boot on her shirt, her bra. She was riding a bus, so that doesn't surprise me. And. Oh, and then they say that the, the hairs belong to a crime scene investigator, they think, who covered the body with a blanket from the trunk of his or her car and disregarded his evidence. There are also the telltale green synthetic fibers found on her socks and in her underwear. And unlike the other victims, though, this is different, Paul. She's been stabbed four times and they say likely by a left handed individual. And the wound to her right chest was the fatal wound? They believe so. This is different. Do you think it's that he got up close and figured out that she's older and she fought? She must have fought like hell.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, well, I would say that with the. I mean, the fact that she has a broken neck, I mean, that's not easy to do. It's not like what you see in the movies where a guy just, you know, twists the head of, you know, some enemy. And so she fought. There's a lot of force being used during this combat between her and the offender. So, you know, she is fighting back. She's the oldest. She's probably the most physically capable of all the victims so far in this series. And he potentially really struggled to get her under control. You know, now sometimes I'll see certain things and I can get a guess of sort of the difference between the offender and the victim in terms of their, you know, size and strength and capabilities. I can't say that with, with whoever is attacking Brenda just based off the fact she has a broken neck, but I would say, yeah, she, she fought back. But he still carries out a sexual assault. Can't sequence when the sex assault occurred relative to, you know, the fight between the two. But the stabbing in part may be due to him trying to get her under control or he's just trying to ensure she's dead. The broken ne, which may not necessarily have resulted in death or even paralysis, depending on what they found.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And you know, I was thinking that. Boy, the knife seems different for me. But one of them had cuts on her.

[Paul Holes]

Yep. Nope. For sure.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So there's a knife involved somewhere else too. You're right. Okay, so here, I'm gonna throw you another curveball and you gotta tell me what you think about this. The note, the tantamount things. Misspelled note. So there's a handwriting expert that says this is Brenda's handwriting because they have her handwriting samples, obviously from school. And he said, this is it. I don't find. It's under duress so three of her school notebooks were missing. She had been carrying them that night from the high school. So of course the theory is, is that he made her write this note.

[Paul Holes]

Handwriting comparison is, you know, one of those really loose types of, if you want to call it a science. Yeah, I'd want to see her examples of writing. You know, how much examples did this handwriting expert supposedly have? Yeah, but sure, you know, if, if, if the offender made her write it, you know, it's in some ways a way to minimize in his mind, you know, the evidence that law enforcement could use back in the day with fingerprints to try to identify him. You know, so he's saying he's not touching that piece of paper. He's having Brenda do it. But I don't know, I'd have to judge the handwriting myself to see if I, if I agreed. And I'm not going to say I'm a handwriting expert, but I definitely, you know, know what I'm looking at.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. Well, before we continue on the route we've been on, we have to introduce some new people. We have 1971 style criminal profilers, which I always find profilers from the past to be really interesting. I mean, some of them now are interesting too. They have medical experts who are trying to build this profile of whoever is doing this. Now that we have five people who are dead and they have two from the Springfield State Hospital, and they think that the killer is a sociopath who has recently suffered a traumatic event. And there's a third physician who says this is an intelligent paranoid schizoid sadist who is under the influence of drugs and might be interested in necrophilia. And they're saying, you know, that the reason that he's leaving these girls in plain view near major highways is that, you know, we've already said this, he craves publicity and attention, and that means feelings of inadequacy. And it's possible that now we're really digging in here. There's a missing father figure in his life. And of course, other people think that he himself is an intellectual and that he is a sexual sadist and loner. He derives pleasure more from violence of his actions than through any sexual activity. Pretty specific without being specific at all. I mean, like I said, I'm sure you could throw a rock at a lot of people, a lot of men in the D.C. area at this time. But what do you think about that

[Paul Holes]

assessment, you know, their conclusion or their opinion that he is a sexual sadist? I mean, there is a possibility he Is, you know, when you start getting into sort of diagnosing him from afar, you know, in terms of he's, you know, paranoid schizophrenic, you know, right. Now, I've worked with profilers my entire career, and all these characteristics that they're saying about this freeway Phantom is something that's internal. You know, it's nothing that I can use to. What I say is narrow the suspect pool. There isn't a database to give me a list of all the paranoid schizophrenics in the D.C. area that are black males. You know, it's like, I can't do it. Now, if I run across a suspect and fits these types of characteristics that can be discerned, then sure, that might be helpful. Right now, I really can't draw any conclusions as to their opinions because it's nothing that, you know, that is externally available to. To flesh out a suspect.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay. All right. Well, let's move on. There is a incredible amount of pressure on the police. There's media everywhere. The FBI are around. There's lots of community involvement. And so the phantom goes silent for 10 months. Now, you know, that is kind of what logically in your head would say is what happened. He got scared. But you and I know lives change. Things happen. Maybe he was in prison. Maybe he was confined in a psychiatric facility. Maybe he got married. We don't know. But this is what the common knowledge would be that he is laying low, but not for much longer, because In September of 1972, there is a sixth victim.

[Paul Holes]

72. Okay. So, yep, 10 months later. And so let's hear it. What does he do?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, so September 6th, 1972. It is 8:04 in the morning, and the body of another black girl is found on the shoulder of i295, basically next to where Darlenia's body was found. And you'll see it on the map. But let me tell you the circumstances first. So she is found face down, eight feet from the shoulder of i295. She is wearing wet clothing and white sneakers without shoelaces. She has been manually strangled to death. And there are fingernail marks creating divots in her neck similar to Carol, I believe. There is a small bruise on her rib cage and abrasions on her left elbow. There's semen found in her vagina, in her mouth. Now, the note here is that it doesn't appear like she has been sexually assaulted. I mean, you know, by 1971, 1972 standards, I'm sure that's what police said, but she obviously has been. There are hairs from black and Caucasian individuals that are collected from her body. Green synthetic fibers found in her bra. Without those fibers, is there any argument that this could be just copycats? I mean, isn't it the synthetic fibers, besides of course, the semen, which they can't really do anything with in 72, but is it the fibers that are connecting all of these? Besides circumstantial stuff?

[Paul Holes]

Besides circumstantial stuff? The consistent presence of fibers is interesting for sure. You know, this, this is also, you know, part of the concern is what is there a source within the source of those types of fibers that may be due to contamination, you know, during the evidence processing. So they would have to eliminate that. But assuming these fibers are actually from something that the offender is got, you know, at his residence, an area rug, carpeting inside his vehicle, those as. As long as they're reasonably unique. You always find blue cotton fibers everywhere. Everybody has blue cotton fibers on them. Just because the prevalence of cotton, you know, blue jeans and stuff like that. But with these synthetic fibers, if they are doing, you know, fairly rigorous testing on those characteristics I mentioned before, you know, it's. What kind of fiber is it? What kind of cross sectional shape does it have, is the dye that is used? You know, and if all of that is adding up with all the fibers across each case, then you're probably, I would say, yeah, that's, that's a fairly, it's. It could be a fairly strong link if. If this is a reasonably rare fiber.

[Matt Rogers]

This is Matt Rogers from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[Ryan Reynolds]

This is Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. What if your WI fi was more than just WI fi? What if your WI fi made everything in your whole house just work together better?

[Matt Rogers]

Well, Xfinity WI Fi pretty much does exactly that. It's powered by their best, most elite, high performing tech.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Allow us to paint a very realistic example. Everyone in your house, everyone is on their devices at the exact same time. Gaming, working, swiping.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Because of course they are. And the finale of your favorite show of all time of the week is on at the exact same moment. Well, you can boost the WI fi to your device with Xfinity.

[Matt Rogers]

And have you ever asked yourself, what if my WI fi could keep watch over my kids for me? Well, probably not, because that's a weird thing to ask yourself, but Xfinity WI fi has parenting skills, even if you sometimes forget yours. Xfinity's like, don't worry, I'll monitor the WI fi.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It's completely proactive, fixing issues before they even happen. Bottom line, Xfinity is smart and reliable. You deserve the peace of mind of having WI Fi that's got your back.

[Amica Insurance Announcer]

Xfinity Imagine that at Amica Insurance, your time and peace of mind matter. Bundle your auto and home coverage with us and enjoy savings that make life a little easier. As a mutual insurance company, we're built for our customers. We prioritize your needs and are here for you when you need us. Amica Empathy is our best policy. Visit amica.com and get a quote today.

[Public Investing Announcer]

Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductors, conductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S P500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete disclosures [e-mail] disclosures

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

okay, so now they need to ID her and they look through the missing person reports. Thank goodness people are reporting these girls missing. They identify her as 17 year old Diane Denise Williams and she is a responsible and trusting hard working girl who hoped to become a model. I mean these are all good man. Just like I'm not hearing anything about gang activity or you know, heavy involvement in drugs or anything like that. These are just all good kids. After spending September 5th with her family she met up with her 16 year old boyfriend who's a kid named James Pryor and they were gonna just listen to Records. When 10:30pm rolls around and Diane has not come home, her parents get very nervous and 11 o' clock comes and her parents report her missing So I don't know if they know about James or what, but they don't seem to call him. They call the police.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. And, well, James most early was interviewed and he said Diane took off. Right.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, so this is what he says. He says that, but he and Diane had had sex the night before.

[Paul Holes]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So that night that she went missing, she gets on the bus. She boards a bus at 10pm to go back home. So when police go to the bus driver, he said, yeah, she was on my bus. She had gotten off at 19th and Benning Road, which is further away than where she should have gotten off, which is at 21st to get to her house. He says she got off with two who he calls hoodlums. And investigators don't have any idea why. Who are these two people she got off the bus with? And why is she not waiting to get closer to home? And so, you know, then they're left with a big mystery from this girl. So James said, yeah, she hopped on the bus. That's to answer your question in a roundabout way. Yes, we had sex. She hopped on the bus. So that could be where the semen comes from.

[Paul Holes]

It sounds like she at least got to a location where she's getting off the bus. I think what's important is she is observed by the bus driver getting off at that particular stop. You have the other two thug guys getting off at the same time. So she's on foot, and that's the last time she's seen. So that's entirely consistent with how many of these other victims are likely being contacted by the offender. And you got two in a row now that have a connection to riding the bus?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. Okay, so the note about the hoodlums who had gotten off the bus, supposedly with Diane, the police start turning to a gang called the Green Vega Gang. And this is happening in May of 74. So you were in the city when this is happening, Paul, I don't know if you remember this notorious gang. So Metropolitan Police detective named Lewis Richardson meets with an informant at the Lorton Prison. And it's this guy named Fatsy, and he's a member of the Green Vega gang. It is a group known to commit violent abductions. And I don't know if they say or it's been proven, but they have been known to have raped as many as 1,000 women in the D.C. metro area between 69 and 73, which is, of course, when the kills happened or when these murders happened. Okay.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So the name of the gang is in reference to the Emerald Green Chevrolet Vega that they used for their crimes. And Fatsi had been convicted of four rapes, armed robbery, kidnapping. And he wants a sentencing deal. So he tells investigators he has information about the Freeway Phantom. And he says, I, of course he says, I had no involvement. But he names off four different gang members that are to blame. And he takes investigators to the locations where Brenda and Darlenia and Brenda Crockett had been discovered. He gives details, according to the police, about Brenda Woodard's murder that they say only the killer would have known. I don't know what those details are. I'm pretty skeptical, and I think it was fairly well publicized where these bodies were found. But Fatty is fingering one guy whose name is John Davis, who is the one who is the kind of the gun wielding leader of the gang that fits the profile. And then, you know, we can kind of talk about that. But then I will tell you, Fatsy does recant. So he essentially says this was all a hoax and he just wanted a reduced sentence and that's it. I'm a little confused about what info he had. I also think the police were under so much pressure that that was a lie, potentially. Who knows?

[Paul Holes]

Well, it is true that, you know, these gangs not only are, you know, selling dope, selling guns, you know, killing other gang members, rival gang members, et cetera. You know, that's all part of what people perceive as gangs, but they also get invol involved in sexual assaults, for sure. You know, and, and there's, you know, they literally do gang rapes at times. So that, you know, that adds up from. Yes, you know, you absolutely could have, you know, these gang members that are truly sexual predators and are participating in crimes that have sexual motivations with other gang members. You know, it was interesting, you know, this green Vega Chevrolet, you know, and of course, you've got the synthetic green fibers. You know, that would be an easy thing to try to figure out. Could those fibers have originated from the upholstery that was commonly used within these Vega vehicles? I just, you know, for this series, this seems inconsistent with the type of offender that is involved with this series, especially with the, the taunting, you know, the writing, the note, the phone calls. I'm not buying this at all. And part of my concern about, you know, the authorities at the time saying this, Fatsy, that he's providing details that only the killer would know. Well, I've literally seen authorities during the interview feed those details to the person that they are interviewing. And the person just regurgitates those details. Yeah, they just, you know, and that is sometimes just incompetence by the interviewers. Sometimes it's purposeful because they're just trying to close a case and they're going to frame this guy just so they can say they've made an arrest. And that's why we have the Innocence Project.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I mentioned this guy, John Davis, and they look at John Davis, who's a member of the Vega gang, and he is not a good person, of course. He becomes easily enraged, and he seems to get pleasure out of causing other people harm and misery. He has a history of pedophilia. He has a rape victim who says that when he took her to the woods to sexually assault her, he said, this is where I kill little girls. Now, I know that it's a scare tactic, you know, so I don't put any weight on that. I assume you don't either. I mean, if I were gonna intimidate somebody, I would use a weapon and I would use words.

[Paul Holes]

No, for sure. Yeah. And that's just.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Just.

[Paul Holes]

It's. It's not. That's not an unusual type of threat. It's gain compliance.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So Fatsy says, just kidding. I didn't, you know, mean any of it. He gets scared, of course, that he's going to get shanked in prison, because all of these guys are going to end up at some point in prison, and he'll be there with them. Well.

[Paul Holes]

And he's going to be suspected of being involved in the, you know, abduction, rape, homicide of little girls. That makes you kind of a target in the prison system.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. So it's not worth a reduced sentence to him. I think the detective in charge doesn't believe him anyway. He just doesn't think like you. He just doesn't think this really adds up. This is not. This gang has been around for a while, and nothing like this has ever been associated with this gang. Horrible things, but different horrible things. So the detective, Lloyd Davis, he believes that the killer is connected to the St. Elizabeth's Mental Hospital, because we've seen some bodies be deposited right there. You know, notably, I think it's Carol Ann Darlenia. Very close together. So he starts digging into past patients, and he sees a guy named Robert Elwood Askins. I think this is the person we need to pay the most attention to. So he's been described as mentally disturbed, and he was currently convicted in 74 on two counts of abduction and rape. He is also black, because I know we've been talking about race a lot so let me describe what happens with a survivor, because there's a couple of survivors in this case with Askin specifically, that can be proven. So this is 76 when this happens. He had gotten out. So this is five years from the beginning of the series. So I cannot imagine being in Washington D.C. particularly being a person of color. And this series of girls and very young women being murdered has not been solved after five years. It must have been terrifying to be in that environment. Awful. This is where Askins comes in. So, 7-8-76, he poses as a policeman and he pulls alongside 25 year old Martina Stewart and he convinces her to get into his green car. He could have had a blue Volkswagen with a yellow stripe and ditched it, you know, several years ago, but this is a green car. Once inside, he threatens her with a gun. He takes her to his house and repeatedly rapes her. And after the assault, he demands that she make the bed. As she leans forward to tuck in the sheets, he pins her down with a pipe. She wrestles the pipe from him and throws a can opener at him, but she can't escape. Later on, he agrees to let her go. The only condition is, is that she needs to take a bath and she needs to allow him to lotion her body and comb her hair. He forces her to write a note stating that she had thrown the can opener at him because she was, quote, high off of drugs and she did what her high told her to do. Okay, what do you think about that? She survives. And this is a few years after all of this other stuff happens.

[Paul Holes]

Well, there's some overlap with the previous cases that are part of the series. You know, the taking back to a residence, you have the sexual assault, the cleanup, forcing her to take a bath and then forces her to write a note. Just like possibly that's what happened in Brenda's case, however different. You know, she's 28 years old. The use of a pipe, I think, can't say for sure that a pipe or bludgeoning weapon hadn't been used in the other cases. But he's also not strangling her, he's not killing her, he's letting her live. So there are some differences. And, you know, are those differences due to the passage of time? Are those due to, you know, who Martina was to him as a victim? You know, that's kind of hard to say. I would say he's interacting interesting just because there is, at least from what I can tell, you know, enough overlap where you have to look at him and, you know, this is where it's. Where was he at at the time of the other cases? You know, what is he up to? Is there a way I can eliminate him? Because he was in the hospital for, you know, some of the cases. So you just have to start. You start digging in on the guy and then, of course, you have to pull him in and interview him for those other cases.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. And just a quick note. When 76 is here and he has this abduction, he's 57 at the time. So, you know, he's older. And I don't know if that comes into play later on, but there's some background that I'll tell you about with him.

[Paul Holes]

Well, I'm 57. Well, be careful with the term older.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

All right, moving on. Listen, I'm 51. Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

You know, it does, does somewhat come into play though, is that, you know, we've seen these male offenders, they do age out.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

Now, not necessarily. We do have older offenders for sure, you know, but it also now comes back to. Okay, when the Freeway Phantom series starts with Carol in 1971, Askins is 52, 53, somewhere in there. So, you know, know five years have passed, six years have passed, you know, so he's in his early 50s. He's more your age, Kate, than. Than mine. When the series starts, this is, this is a little bit old for a predator to start, you know, so that's kind of what I'm keying in on is let's say he is the Freeway Phantom. I'm kind of going, well, what pre existed the first case with Carol, you know, whether it be in the D.C. area or wherever Askins has been his adult life.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, so about nine months later, after what happened with Martina Stewart, and he gets away with that, Askins attempts another abduction. So this is a 23 year old named Gloria McMillan. And she was waiting for an elevator to her apartment complex. And he approaches her from behind, he presses and iron pipe against her throat, begins to choke her, and he forces her into his green car. Then he takes her to his house, he restrains her, he sexually assaults her. After he failed to use the pipe on her, he stuffed a piece of paper in her vagina, which was similar to, I think, the first Brenda Crockett, I believe. When Gloria fought back, he choked her and tried to throw her through a window. The glass broke, it cut her arms. She passed out. When she regained consciousness, he was in the process of assaulting her again. Then he bathed her, he put lotion on her body, he bandaged her arms, and he Gave her three aspirin. She believed he was gonna let her go, but he instead grabbed a knife and a plastic bag from the kitchen, threatened to kill her and dump her body in Virginia. And it sounds like he was gonna do that. He was dragging her to his car and she escaped. So this is where it gets a little confusing because this happens in 77 and it sounds like because of this he is arrested. He claims that he had only been trying to help these two women, that he was the victim of their drug fueled violence. He alleged the women had fabricated their stories to collaborate with the police and with psychiatrists at St. Elizabeth's where it turns out he spent quite a lot of time and the world was against him. The judge doesn't buy it and he is admitted to St. Elizabeth's Forensic Inpatient division. So, you know, then we have to go back decades to find out what his background is to give, you know, us more insight here. So what do you think about that second abduction?

[Paul Holes]

Well, it's, I would say it's very similar to his first abduction. And there's, you know, there's overlap with the Freeway Phantom cases. He absolutely has to be investigated based on his past and the fact that that geographically he does have a location that, you know, fits with the first two cases, Carol and Darlenia, you know, but with that being said, is that you're going to find offenders that have criminal history during the course of your investigation. And so it's not, it's not unusual that you will find offenders that have committed similar type crimes to the guy that is actually responsible for the cases you're investigating. And you know, in 1977, at this point, to try to link him to the Freeway Phantom cases is a little bit more challenging than what we could do today.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, they go back to try to figure out what his connection might be. Because now of course it's 77. It's six years later when this all started and they think that he is certainly involved. So they do what you say, they investigate in 38. So let me go back real quick. Robert Askins was born in 1919. So now we're talking about 38. So he's 19. I think in 1938 he was a chemistry student at a teacher's college, which is now it was called Minor Teachers College. Now it's Howard University. Great school.

[Paul Holes]

Oh, wow.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

He stabbed and killed a woman. She was a 26 year old sex worker named Elizabeth Brown. And then a week after that, he served alcohol laced with rat poison. So it was potassium cyanide to five sex workers, killing one of them named Ruth McDonald. She was 31. He was arrested and indicted for stabbing Elizabeth Brown. He went on a misogynistic rant. He said that after he contracted a sexually transmitted infection, he decided to kill them all. Little Jack the Ripper, it seems like, and orchestrate a purge of prostitutes, he said. Later he would say police brutality had forced this confession. While he was awaiting psychiatric evaluation, he freed himself from his restraints and attacked three female employees. And then he's diagnosed with something. But it's an interesting diagnosis, but let's, you know, go through what you think about that. This seems in line with the Freeway Phantom killer.

[Paul Holes]

Well, he's showing that he's capable of committing this type of violence, you know, but we still have to have a nexus between him and the actual crimes that are being worked. So like the point I made, you know, earlier in the first episode is we are talking about, you know, the D.C. area. This suspect Askins was developed by an investigator going and find, trying to find former patients that, that were staying at that, that hospital. And so of course you're going to find, when you do that type of intensive dig in a psychiatric hospital, you're going to find some people have committed some horrific crimes. So now it gets down to he's checking some boxes in terms of his, his hostility and violence towards women that go, go back to being a teenage boy. But you have to, you have to find something that ties them to the, the Freeway Phantom cases.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, well, let's keep going because we definitely have a lot of people weighing in on the. So he was found guilty and he was diagnosed with dementia praecox of the catatonic type. So he was committed to Saint Elizabeth's and deemed incapable of standing trial. And this was in 38. So in 43 the murder charges were dropped and in 52 he was deemed rehabilitated and released. So he was at St. Elizabeth's for 14 years and then released. And he was released in 52. He soon goes back to violence. So he strangles Laura Maddie Cook, who was a sex worker in 52. Six months later he tries to strangle a 23 year old named Marie Sweeney, but she escapes. She doesn't report it because she was a sex worker also and you know, she didn't want to draw attention to that. He was charged with the murder of Laura Cook, but there was an indictment that was dismissed because of a lack of evidence. In 58, his conviction in the murder of Ruth MacDonald was overturned because Of a lapse in the statute of limitations because he was never charged with Ruth MacDonald.

[Paul Holes]

This was a homicide.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

He served alcohol with rat poisoning to five sex workers, and he killed one of them. He was arrested and indicted, but then he was awaiting psychiatric evaluation. And this is where he gets diagnosed with schizophrenia. And that's when he gets admitted to Elizabeth's. So it sounds like when he gets out of st. Elizabeth's and he kills other people, they want to go back and charge him with Ruth MacDonald saying, oh, he wasn't crazy. He needs to pay the price for that. But I guess there was back then a statute of limitations on murder, and so they couldn't charge. Charge him.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, and I. I also think. So he's. The way he killed Ruth was through the rat poisoning. Maybe they didn't deem it like first degree murder. Maybe they. They deemed it something. Something else. A lesser charge, whether it be second or. Or manslaughter. I'm. I'm not even sure if you could if he's intentionally poisoning. But there may be a little loophole in terms of how that crime was charged, which now it's, It's. It has a statute of limitations. And it told when they went back to try to charge him with it.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

The detective who was working this case, Davis, he went and talked to people who knew Askins in the early 70s. He had lived alone and he had not clocked in at work during the time of the freeway phantom abductions, and that he was left handed also. So they're saying he doesn't have an alibi for any of this. It sounds like the detective searches Askin's current home. He's hoping, of course, to try to find any trophies, school books from Brenda Woodard, you know, anything like that. And the only thing he finds is court documents, I think, from his cases, One of which includes the word tantamount, which was the incorrectly used word that the killer had. Had made Brenda Woodard, you know, write down.

[Paul Holes]

I don't know. I'm not blown away by that. As an item of evidence. Yeah. So it sounds like that detective, I mean, he got a warrant, he goes in, he's searching for anything that can tie Askins to the phantom killings, and he strikes out.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

He does. Okay, so they look at this mysterious green fiber that has been found on many of the victims in 77. The FBI had sent it to his lab. They confirm it's rayon, and all from the same source. So at first they think what you and I thought, which is a green carpet, you know, from A car or upholstery. But more modern science, as in the last few years, says they think it's from a bath mat, which makes more sense to me because that's probably where all of the assaults happened. Or, you know, he has some of them bathed. Maybe all of them were bathed. We don't know.

[Paul Holes]

Well, and that's where. Yeah, between 1977 and, you know, I don't know when the. This current testing was done, but let's say the advances in instrumental analyses for this type of evidence just exponentially got better. So, you know, I put a lot of weight on the more recent finding just because I know they have a lot more information as to what this fiber is, as well as databases as to where that type of fiber. And it's not just being rayon. It's also the cross section of the fiber and the dye that's used in the fiber. There's so many things that they can really isolate and get good info on that. If they're saying it's a bath mat, then I believe that.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. So let's talk about a new detective. So she's coming on the case. Her name is Romaine Jenkins. In the 80s, she was the first female homicide detective in the district where the murders began. And, you know, she wanted to be on this case. She was called to the first murder in 71, but then she was taken off of the case completely because of the Vietnam Protestant. So now she's put on the case, and she speculates that the Freeway Phantom killer knew or stalked his victims. So tell me what you think about this. And then I have another interesting theory. This is what she finds. Brenda Woodard's body was left on a street her mother regularly took to work. Diane Williams body was found on an exit ramp her father used during his commute home. Brenda Crockett was calm and not hysterical when she called home. Meaning she knew whoever she was with, though she doesn't name him. She says it's a white man. She was forced to ask if her mother had seen her. So the detective thinks that maybe this is a suggestion that the killer wanted to know if the mom had been able to identify him, wanted to make sure that she didn't recognize him, too. So. So do those seem like coincidences or what?

[Paul Holes]

They could be. I think it's not outside the realm of possibility that this killer is going after girls and young women, that he has some sort of social interaction with the families. We've seen that. That's just the victim pool. He decides to swim in at this point, I couldn't eliminate that as a possibility, but it's just one of the several possibilities. Absolute stranger, you know, victims of opportunity, you know. So, you know, I think it'll be interesting to see what Detective Jenkins, you know, how she progresses in her investigation and what her conclusions are.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Now here's something else odd I haven't mentioned yet that the media really latched onto. And this is what I would call the Denise theory. So I don't know if you picked up on this, but as I named the victim, almost all have Denise in their names. So we have the 13 year old first, Carol Denise Spinks. Then we have the second victim who is Darlenia Denise Johnson. And then you've got Brenda, who is the fifth victim and she is Brenda Denise Woodard. And then we have Diane Williams, who was the last victim that we know of. And her last name, it looks like it's Dennis, but it's actually pronounced Denise. And so there is a lot of theory, of course, running around in the 70s that he has a fixation or a trigger around the name Denise. How would he know these girls middle names?

[Paul Holes]

He wouldn't, unless he actually knows him.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It's weird.

[Paul Holes]

It is. You know, this of course is going to come down to, well, how, how prevalent is the name Denise in these communities where these victims are, are, are from? It's kind of hard to know how much weight to put on that. You know, this is sort of like, you know, the Alphabet Killer in Rochester, New York. And you know, it turns out talking to that detective, they, the people who are actually investigating that case can't say any of those cases are related to each other. They just happen to have victims that have, you know, their initials are the same and you know, I, I recently finished up a two year active investigation into a serial killer, Joe Naso. And he also had multiple victims with first and last initials out in the Bay Area and he came from Rochester. So is he the Alphabet Killer? And it just turns out it's just sheer coincidence. It's just an interesting pattern, but I don't know how much weight to put on this.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It's just like, okay, whether Askins was the Freeway Phantom killer or not, he was still just an awful person and a rapist and a killer. So he had been convicted and did not end up at St. Elizabeth's permanently. He went to the Federal Correctional Institution in Cumberland, Maryland and he was there until he died in 2010 at the age of 91. I hate it when people like that live that old. I mean, I know he was in prison, but he was alive. He remained in prison because of those two DC area abductions. Abductions and rapes in the mid-1970s, not even for all the other murders he had committed, let alone, you know, being a suspect in. In the D.C. stuff. He denied any role in the killings, of course, all the way to the end. And he said that he doesn't have the depravity of mind required to commit the crimes. Okay, here's the interesting thing that I hadn't thought of before. Paul, I know you're going to want to talk about this a little bit. So, as of 2001, there have been 95 suspects in the Freeway Phantom murders over the years. And there is a $300,000 reward still offered to anyone with information that can help close the case. The physical evidence has either been lost or destroyed. So we don't have DNA, it sounds like, to work off of. And because they're not closing the investigation and it's open, we can't look at the police reports.

[Paul Holes]

Right.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And so Detective Jenkins is pessimistic this is ever going to be solved.

[Paul Holes]

Well, that's going to be the heart. Hard, hard part is without that. That objective physical evidence that could identify, you know, the Freeway Phantom, you can sit there and develop circumstantial cases against, you know, a number of men, and you'll be wrong. You know, that's what I did with Golden State Killer, only to be wrong. That's where, you know, you got, whether it be Jack the Ripper or Zodiac, you know, you got all these persons of interest, you know, that have been developed because of circumstances and you can't prove it. You know, so part of this series here, you know, the evidence has been lost or destroyed as well. How. How intensive of a search has actually occurred. We ended up finding evidence from old cases when our property room had to do a complete inventory of every single item contained with it. That is hundreds of. Of thousands of items packaged in boxes and paper bags and in freezers and everything else. They had to open everything up and audit it. And then all of a sudden, they're finding supposedly lost evidence. Well, it was placed in the wrong box. And so that is the type of effort that would be needed. You know, if I were to consult on this case, it'd be okay, where have you looked and how. How hard have you looked? Did you ask your property room manager, do we have this evidence? Did you? And he comes back and says, no, no, as a detective, you want to go back there, roll up Your sleeves and start looking yourself.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So a couple of kind of footnotes. There have been other victims names that have kind of been floated around, One in particular, Tara Ann Bryant, that Blaine Pardo and his daughter Victoria Hester, were working on connecting. I don't have enough information about that. So we're not gonna get into that case at all, because it's not a case that's mentioned with the metropolitan police or with the FBI. So I just want to steer clear of cases that we don't know have been 100% connected to this case.

[Paul Holes]

Sure.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I would love to see a development in this case. And I know that this is the kind of case that really interests you because there is a lot of profiling and there's evidence of what might still be around and all of that kind of stuff. But I would have to say that Askins is as good a suspect as any, and to me, he fits it. But you're right. There's just illegally. There's not enough evidence. Thank God he ended up in prison and ended up dying there.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. You know, again, I just. Having investigated men who have committed horrific crimes in the past, and they weren't involved in the cases that I was investigating, they just, you know, their names popped up in the investigation for one reason or another. When you have to pay attention to somebody that has in the past shown that propensity or even then after the cases like here, like, Askins has cases after. But his cases after some overlap, but, you know, some significant differences with what he's doing. Is that just because he's older? Well, he's not that much older. It's only five years.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right.

[Paul Holes]

You know, so why. Why the difference? So. But, yeah, I mean, he most certainly percolated to the top of that one investigator's efforts. And as that investigator, Doug, he's going, oh, my God, look at what this guy has done. But he can't tie him to the actual phantom cases, you know, and that's where, you know, the. The people investigating this case. It has to be the ultimate effort to track down any remaining item of physical evidence with the hope that you can get that objective identifying evidence, such as fingerprints off of the note or DNA from whether it be the victim's clothing or from swabs or whatever.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, absolutely. Well, what a hard. I still have a headache case. Gosh, I hate talking about kids who are hurt and then murdered. It's just awful. But this is the kind of case I personally. And I know our listeners personally learn a lot from you and just from policing in the 70s and about the history behind it, but what an awful way to learn that stuff. It's a hard case, right?

[Paul Holes]

You know, and it's, it has an impact on the people that are working the case. You know, of course, you got the victims losing their lives. You have families losing their loved ones, you know, but the, you know, the professionals that are actually working these cases just like this Detective Jenkins, you know, I'm sure, you know, this has had a massive impact on, on her as a person, you know, and it's, it's, it's something where I know there's victims families that never want to have their cases covered in a podcast or a TV show. And then there's other victim families are going, we want to have our loved ones, you know, memory alive, you know, and hopefully it brings attention to the case and potentially could get them an answer as to who's responsible.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Absolutely. Okay. Paul, a different case next week. I'm excited for another case with Buried Bones.

[Paul Holes]

I am looking forward to it, Kate. Thank you.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

See you.

[Paul Holes]

See you.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Paul Holes]

For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com buriedbones sources.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi, research

[Paul Holes]

by Allison Trouble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our mixing engineer is Ben Tollen.

[Paul Holes]

Our theme song is by Tom Breivogel.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac, executive

[Paul Holes]

produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at buriedbonespod.

[Paul Holes]

Kate's most recent book, all that is A Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to Decode the Criminal Mind, is available now.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And Paul's best selling memoir, My Life Solving America's Cold Cases, is also available now.

[Paul Holes]

Listen to Barry bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Redfin Announcer]

There's a difference between liking a house and actually getting it. Redfin is built to make up that difference and close the gap between finding and owning the home for you. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. So when you find a home you love, you're not a step behind when it comes to making an offer. That means less watching great homes disappear and more focus on the one you'll call home. Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses. Get [e-mail] own the dream.

[Bethenny Frankel]

This is Bethenny Frankel from Just Be with Bethany Frankel. Let me be blunt. Most dog food is junk. It just is. And I'm not feeding junk to Biggie and Smalls. That is why they eat just food for dogs. It's real, 100% human grade food with ingredients I actually recognize, not mystery pellets pretending to be healthy. And once I switched, the difference was obvious. Better digestion, better skin, more energy. Dogs who actually feel good instead of just surviving dinner. Here's the thing you care about quality. You make an intentional choice to be healthy. So why are you gambling with your dog's health? So let's think about our furry babies. Go to justfoodfordogs.com right now and get 50% off your first box. No code. Just try it. Because once you see the difference, you're not going back.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

a message for everyone paying Big Wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good

[Ryan Reynolds]

in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Okay, one judgment anyway, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

[Redfin Announcer]

See full [e-mail].