Loading summary
Transcript186 lines
- [00:02]
CVS Narrator
This is exactly right. At cvs, it matters that we're not just in your community, but that we're part of it. It matters that we're here for you when you need us, day or night. And we want everyone to feel welcomed and rewarded. It matters that CVS is here to fill your prescriptions and here to fill your craving for a tasty and, yeah, healthy snack. At cvs, we're proud to serve your community because we believe where you get medicine matters. So Visit us@cvs.com or just come by our store. We can't wait to meet you. Store hours vary by location.
- [00:42]
Comcast Business Narrator
Comcast Business helps retailers become seamlessly restocking, frictionless, paying favorite shopping destinations.
- [00:48]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Thank you for shopping.
- [00:49]
Comcast Business Narrator
It's how nationwide restaurants become touchscreen ordering quick serving eateries, and how hospitals become the patient scanning, data managing healthcare facilities that we all depend on. With leading networking and connectivity, advanced cybersecurity and expert partnership, Comcast business is powering the engine of modern business powering possibilities. Restrictions apply.
- [01:12]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Ugh.
- [01:12]
Cindy Crawford
Could this vintage store be any cuter?
- [01:14]
Paul Holz
Right?
- [01:15]
Kate Winkler Dawson
And the best part? They accept Discover.
- [01:17]
CVS Narrator
Accept Discover in a little place like this? I don't think so, Jennifer.
- [01:21]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Oh, yeah, huh? Discover's accepted where I like to shop. Come on, baby, get with the times. Right. So we shouldn't get the parachute pants. These are making a comeback, I think.
- [01:35]
Paul Holz
Discover is accepted at 99% of places.
- [01:37]
LifeLock Advertiser
That take credit cards nationwide.
- [01:39]
Paul Holz
Based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.
- [01:45]
Kate Winkler Dawson
I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.
- [01:51]
Paul Holz
And I'm Paul Holz, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.
- [01:58]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.
- [02:03]
Paul Holz
And I weigh in. Using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.
- [02:08]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens.
- [02:16]
Paul Holz
Some are solved and some are cold. Very cold.
- [02:19]
Kate Winkler Dawson
This is buried bones. Hey, Paul.
- [02:43]
Paul Holz
Hey, Kate. What's going on with you?
- [02:45]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Well, I have this case that I'm going to present to you that has a little story attached to it. And I don't think I've told you this story yet. About five years ago or something, when I had Tenfold more wicked, I had, you know, several people, a lot of people actually would email me and say, hey, do you want to do the story? That story? And there was a woman who said, I think you should look into a story called The Haystack Murders. And I think you'll really like it. So I look up Haystack Murders, and it points me towards what turned out to be my fourth book. You know, the Sinners All Bow, about Sarah Maria Cornell, who was found hanging from a haystack pole.
- [03:24]
Paul Holz
This is different than. Cause we did an episode that involved a male that died with haystack that caught fire. Right.
- [03:32]
Kate Winkler Dawson
So that's a different. You're right. That's a different one.
- [03:34]
Paul Holz
Okay.
- [03:35]
Kate Winkler Dawson
And she wasn't talking about that one. What she was saying, you know, what I was led to Sarah Maria Cornell, you know, the subject of my book, hanging from a haystack pole in Fall river, Massachusetts, in 1832. And I dig into this, and I said, this is not a tenfold story. This is a book. Book. I think it was really. It felt so significant to me. Very female centric. And I had not written a book like that before. And so I emailed her back and I said, just so you know, you know, I have a book contract based on this idea that you told me, the Haystack Murder. And I said, I just really appreciate you passing it on. You won't hear it on tenfold, but you can read it in a book in a few years and thanks for passing on Sarah Maria Cornell's story. And she said, what are you talking about? That is not what I was talking about. That's not the haystack murder I was discussing.
- [04:21]
Mint Mobile / Taco Bell Advertiser
Really?
- [04:22]
Kate Winkler Dawson
She had only said one line, haystack murder. And she said, that's not what I meant.
- [04:26]
Paul Holz
Okay.
- [04:27]
Kate Winkler Dawson
And so I said, what the hell do you mean? And then she sent me the link, and that is the story we are doing today. So if she had told me the correct story, what I'm going to tell you, I would have had a completely different book. So now I said, now I thought, okay, well, I might as well do the real haystack, what this woman intended for me to do.
- [04:47]
Paul Holz
Yeah. Instead of a book, you got an episode. There you go.
- [04:50]
Kate Winkler Dawson
I got an episode. There you go. And it's a good story, too. So let's go ahead and set the scene. So we are in Lodi, California.
- [05:00]
Paul Holz
I know Lodi well.
- [05:01]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Well, good. This is 1923. Love the time period. Love, love, love it. In the middle of Prohibition, right before people were spending stupid amounts of money in the roaring twenties. And then, of course, the crash in 29 and the depression. So this is in Lodi, which was an agricultural city in San Joaquin Valley. So at this time, and you can tell me if this is the case now, too. At this time. There were flower mills vineyards, orchards, and a lot of cattle ranching. And that's what the area was known for in 1923. How would you describe it now?
- [05:34]
Paul Holz
You know, I can't, I can't speak to the flower mills vineyards for sure, which is surprising because, you know, where I lived in California, I was 20 minutes away from Napa Sonoma, you know, world renowned wineries. But Lodi, which is Central Valley, I would never have thought that that would be a good place for vineyards. But they have a lot of vineyards, huge vineyards. And in fact, I became quite a fan of what, what they call old vine Zinfandel. So they have these old, old vineyards with these gnarled up vines of grapes of Zinfandel variety, and then they produce, you know, wine from that. And I loved it, you know, so I was, you know, there's multiple different vineyards that I would drink, but I would go through Lodi all the time to get down to Stockton when I was investigating Golden State Killer. And I'd be driving through these vineyards, you know, and again, it's, it's Central Valley. It gets super hot in the summertime. There's. There's a huge wind turbine farm right outside of Lodi. Now, as far as cattle, it wouldn't surprise me that there would be a lot of cattle out there because there's cattle everywhere in Northern California. But I, I don't recall that specifically, but I also met with multiple people in Lodi or lived in Lodi, you know, during the time of my investigation with Golden State Killer.
- [07:15]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Well, that's where we are. It's Wednesday, September 12, 1923. So it's important for me to talk about the history section of this just because I think this is an interesting time. I told you, Prohibition, it's before this big infusion of money. So this is a few years after World War I. The war was very hard on San Joaquin Valley community because, and this was what was interesting, the trickle down effect of a war. Okay, During World War I, European farmers, many of them, had to leave or shut down during World War I because they were either fighting or, you know, the resources of their farm had to be used for something else. So this meant that the Americans, specifically the farmers in San Joaquin Valley, were told to ramp up production, okay? So they ramped up production. They got a lot of bank loans. And then when the war ended, that's what made some things crash for these farmers because the European farmers came back and the demand for American Agricultural products plummeted and so the crop prices then crashed and there's a lot of surplus. And so we have, in 1923 in this area, a lot of people who had to file for bankruptcy and you know, people who were in tremendous amount of debt. So that's where we are. It sounds, you know, it's beautiful and all. I love agricultural land, but it was dire straits for a lot of people in this area in this time period.
- [08:42]
Paul Holz
No, I could see that. And then, what, six years later you have the Great Depression starting.
- [08:48]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah, that's why I always say it's my favorite. It's not the favorite for people who lived through it, but it's my favorite time period because, you know, you've got early 20s, prohibition, crackdown, it doesn't work. There's the rise of criminal enterprise. You've got, oh, here's tons of money. Any harebrained scheme you want, we'll give you the money for it. And then the crash in 1929 and then the Depression, all in a decade. It's just pretty incredible. And the crime that's developed, you know, that's what American Sherlock, my second book, was about the crime that happens and how, how interesting it is to see the way criminals adapt. And they're always a step ahead of, you know, the investigators who then quickly have to pivot too. And so you just see that like these, these investigators in the 20s, just constantly, like a half a step behind because they think they've got a hold of the criminals and the way they're doing something, whatever the scheme is, and then the criminals go, okay, well, we're going to figure out another way to do it. And so that's the kind of feel, it's like a catch up feeling for.
- [09:43]
Paul Holz
Me that whole time period, yet still the same today. I know criminals do something new and then law enforcement has to figure it out and adapt.
- [09:53]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yep. Okay, here is the crime. It's 9pm and as I said, so if we're looking at, we have an outdoor scene, so that's why I'm telling you it's September 12, 1923. So this would have been warm still, Right. Central Valley, it would have been freezing still. I think it's San Francisco. But warm, right?
- [10:11]
Paul Holz
Yeah. No, I will tell you, in September can be like the hottest summer month in this part of California. I wouldn't be surprised if it got over 100 degrees.
- [10:22]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Okay, let me tell you about this. So 9 o', clock, there's a farmer who sees a burning haystack on a Ranch called the William Lange Ranch. He rushes to help. All he can see is a haystack. And this does sound like our other story, remember, like the two big hay bales, massive hay bales in England are on fire and nobody can see anything until it burns down a little bit. And then in that case, you saw a dead body. Yeah, in this case, it's a car that's on fire. And in the backseat there is a smoldering body. And I have a picture of the car, not of the body, I'm sorry, but I do have a picture of the car. So if you open up what you have, listen, I mean, it's not the greatest photo, but I think you'll get the idea. It has been, just for the record, burned to the metal is what they say, completely charred the body and the, the car has been burned down to the metal.
- [11:18]
Paul Holz
Okay, so what I'm looking at is, and part of it is, you know, the context. We, we are talking about 1923. So what did cars look like in 1923? And so now that I'm adjusting to model T type of vehicle, I'm seeing a vehicle that, from left to right in this photograph, the left is the front of the vehicle, there's the engine compartment, there's a passenger area. Then you have the, the rear wheel and the rear part of the vehicle. The metal on this vehicle has softened to the point to where the rear wheels, not the tires, the tires are gone, they burned. But the wheels themselves, metal part has softened to the point to where like the left driver side wheel is bent at a 90 degree angle just from the weight of the vehicle itself. With this type of photo, I can't see, you know, the charring of the vehicle or anything like that, but I can see where there's been structural compromise as a result of heat combustible aspects of the vehicle, like let's say a wooden steering wheel gone, upholstery gone. You know, it is just a crippled hull of what used to be a car.
- [12:43]
Kate Winkler Dawson
So that's what this body was found in. And you know, I guess one of my questions is we did do the spontaneous combustion story where there's a body found in between these two haystacks. Would this sort of destruction indicate to you that this, either this fire either had to have gone on for a very long time or there must have been an accelerant added to this fire? I don't think this is spontaneous combustion.
- [13:09]
Paul Holz
You know, let's talk car fires. Have you ever been, you know, driving on the freeway and Seen a vehicle on fire, that's off to the side. Right. You know, so vehicles do have combustible materials in them, but they also have an accelerant that is present with inside the vehicle, gasoline or diesel. Right. And the same thing with vehicles in the 1920s. Now, I'm not sure there was a transition at one point with vehicles from kerosene to gasoline, and I'm not sure when that transition occurred. But for this discussion, I don't think it matters. Fundamentally, you do have an accelerant. So if you're an arson investigator and looking at this vehicle, you know, part of the complexity is, well, there's already an accelerant presence. So if there was something that could ignite a fire and then the onboard fuel as an accelerant enhance that fire, it could potentially cover up, you know, an offender, let's say, dousing a vehicle, you know, with some sort of flammable material, you know, so this is where now it's, you know, the, the investigation. Like, if I'm, if I'm processing this vehicle, you know, the body is first and foremost. And I've literally had this scenario in my past as far as a case. I will tell you that bodies and vehicles that have been burned, this is not a fun thing to deal with. But it's also working with fire marshals, with arson investigators, you know, state fire marshal's office, you know, whoever you can get out. Okay, so where is the point of origin of the fire? Does it look like it was caused by an accident? You know, something within the vehicle that, you know, caused the fire to occur. And then, of course, you know, the onboard accelerant ignites. Or do we have evidence that there was intentional fire setting that occurred in order to cover up a crime? You know, and that's typically if you have a body at a vehicle, let's say the body is in the trunk of the vehicle. Mm, good chance that, yeah, somebody set fire to the vehicle in order to try to cover up the crime and eliminate evidence.
- [15:29]
Public Investing Advertiser
Support for the show comes from public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets, which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index, and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comdisclosures hi, I'm.
- [16:30]
Cindy Crawford
Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well I don't know about you, but like I never liked being told oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more@meaningfulbeauty.com.
- [17:04]
Mint Mobile / Taco Bell Advertiser
Well, the holidays have come and gone once again, but if you've forgotten to get that special someone in your life a gift, well, Mint Mobile is extending their holiday offer of half off on unlimited wireless. So here's the idea. You get it now, you call it an early present for next year.
- [17:19]
Kate Winkler Dawson
What do you have to lose?
- [17:21]
Mint Mobile / Taco Bell Advertiser
Give it a try@mintmobile.com switch limited time.
- [17:24]
Cindy Crawford
50 off regular price for new customers upfront payment required 45 for 3 months, $90 for 6 month or 180 for 12 month plan taxes and fees. Extra speeds may slow after 50 gigabytes per month when network is busy See terms.
- [17:36]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Okay, so when the coroner shows up and the sheriff show up at the haystack, the car is so twisted that nobody recognizes the car. Even though this is a small town. They are able to decipher the license plate and so they're able to figure out who this is registered to, number one. Number two, there is a identifiable set of keys that are in the fire in some of the clothing and also the clasp from a coin purse that's also identifiable. When I tell you who this person is, it's confirmed by his wife who sees these items and says this is it. Nobody can tell from the car. They have to go and figure it out through the registration.
- [18:17]
Paul Holz
So would men back in the day carry a coin purse?
- [18:21]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah, it's more of a clasp. So it's Like a clasp from a coin purse. That would not have been unusual because people use coins a lot more than we do now, obviously. So those were the two things that, that stood out to, you know, investigators, and they know who it is. And they said it's a guy named Alexander, Alex Kells. So he goes by Alex. So he was very prominent, Alex. He was a member of a lot of different social organizations and a lot kind of set in agriculture type organizations. He was very well liked. A lot of people said he was amazing because he's a self made man. He came from Germany in 1885 and he was a butcher, but a very wealthy butcher. So he had apprenticed at several California butcheries and had slowly built up his wealth. And by 1917, so this is six years before he died, he was in a position to buy his own ranch. So he bought a ranch and he also started two slaughterhouses. You know, they were both meat markets essentially, but, you know, he would slaughter the animals himself. And he was very, very wealthy. So one meat market was located in a modern brick building. It was top of the line, had all the best equipment. He had a lot of cold storage rooms for hanging meats and, you know, enamel walls and a modern sales floor. And in 1923, when he died, his fortune was estimated to be a quarter of a million dollars. 1923 money, which is almost 5 million today. So your victim has a lot of money. We don't know anything else about him except he was very, you know, well liked and he had a lot of money.
- [20:04]
Paul Holz
Sure.
- [20:05]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Three days later, we've got two doctors who are going to take a look at Alex's remains. There are only three teeth present in Alex's skull. So they think that the fire must have been so intense that it consumed the rest of the teeth. They wonder if the skull was crushed, but because of the fire, they can't tell and they don't find any bullet wounds. So the cause of death is a mystery for them.
- [20:31]
Paul Holz
Teeth, even like in crematoriums, you know, teeth end up, without mechanical disruption, end up surviving super high temperatures, much more so than the surrounding bone. So that's where I'm a little bit not sure what they're observing. There's only three teeth present. Why is that? And then the, the other thing, what ends up happening with a fire with a human body, when it is being superheated, the skull bursts. You know, the brain in essence becomes like, for lack of a better term, like a boiling liquid. And so now the, the skull will burst. And once the Skull bursts. It can collapse in and on, on itself. So this is where. Now are they recognizing that's the phenomena that they are dealing with or is there actual violence that occurred like, let's say, during a bludgeoning? A competent pathologist can determine this. You know, this is where you need to know what you are looking at.
- [21:39]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Well, I can tell you one thing they're looking at when they look at this. I mean, they kind of describe it as skeletal remains. When they look at the remains, they find out that his hands are tied behind his back.
- [21:50]
Paul Holz
That's a clue.
- [21:51]
Kate Winkler Dawson
There's a big funeral, 3,000 people. That's how much people like this guy Alex kills. They are questioning different residents about Alex and trying to figure out what his last movements were. Was he talking to somebody that people did know or didn't know? What was his behavior like, all of that stuff? And they start to put together a timeline because small town people saw him. So this is what happens. So his body is discovered at 9pm so we go back 12 hours. Between 8 o' clock and 9 o' clock am he was at a public employment office and he was hiring somebody, you know, which is something he did often to feed stock on his ranch. And then at 10 o' clock, he had met with a unknown woman and they were spotted driving toward an abandoned ranch. From 11 o' clock until 4pm he worked at his butcher shop in Lodi. And he went to a restaurant during a break. And at 4:20, he and another man waved at a Fuller Lumber driver. They were headed north of town in Alex's car, the one who ends up, the one that ends up being burned up. About 5 o', clock, he is seen killing time and snacking on. I don't mean to wince at this. Sardines.
- [23:08]
Paul Holz
Oh, I can't. I can't eat sardines.
- [23:10]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Don't get upset if you guys like sardines. And he is eating. He's snacking on sardines in Lockerford. I've never been there. Which is about eight miles northeast of Lodi.
- [23:21]
Paul Holz
Okay.
- [23:22]
Kate Winkler Dawson
6:45, a carpenter saw Alex. He was alone this time. He was driving south. And he was. The last time he was seen Alive was about 7:30pm so about an hour and a half before his body was discovered. And he was driving in the direction of the haystack.
- [23:38]
Paul Holz
Okay, so he's taken himself out towards at least where he ultimately is found. Like maybe he goes to meet somebody. And what time was that again?
- [23:52]
Kate Winkler Dawson
So the last time people saw him was at 7:30 he was by himself. And the sheriff is trying to track down the man who Alex hired at the public employment office. There's no record of this man, which is unusual, but they said sometimes that happens. So they don't have a name that they can look up in, say Alex Kells hired this guy, and nobody knows who this. Who this woman is.
- [24:15]
Paul Holz
And it's also hard to say that that interaction earlier in the day had anything to do with this homicide.
- [24:23]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yep.
- [24:24]
Paul Holz
And I would say the fact that his hands are bound behind his back, I think any pathologist looking at this set of circumstances would probably say, yes, you know, this is death at the hands of another homicide. Now, is it possible, you know, Maybe he. He OD'd, and now you got somebody who he was doing drugs with, freaking out, and, you know, binds him up to transport him and then dumps the body or sets, you know, puts him in a hayfield and, you know, sets it on fire. But it doesn't sound like that's what we are dealing with here, so. So, okay, so 7:30 is the last time he's seen alive, and he's driving towards, at least in the general direction of the hayfield in which his body is found.
- [25:13]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yep. And his widow is describing what she believes his day was like. The last time she saw him was at noon, and he was collecting rent. So he had a lot of property, and he was renting out different parts of the property to people, probably kind of sharecropping. And he was collecting rent. That was the day he did it. He would have had money, she said. He would have had quite a bit of money on him. Cash. And she said that she had been worried because he had said to her that he had been getting some death threats. And she was getting ready to call the police when the police came to her and said, we found your husband's body.
- [25:49]
Paul Holz
Okay, so tell me about the death threats.
- [25:52]
Kate Winkler Dawson
She just said that he did not explain anything, that he was scared about these, you know, supposed death threats, but we don't know. We don't know anything about them. And he was vague with her because he didn't want to upset her. Everybody's concerned about the widow because she's pregnant.
- [26:08]
Paul Holz
So these death threats aren't coming in, like, through the mail?
- [26:12]
Kate Winkler Dawson
No.
- [26:12]
Paul Holz
Okay, so there's no written record?
- [26:14]
Kate Winkler Dawson
It doesn't look like it, no. If there were, he didn't hand them over to her. So that is, you know, where we are right now. They don't know what happened to him. They're still doing. They still have one more like physical exam to do. They have another doctor coming in. And so the sheriff is alarmed because this does not happen in Lodi. Of course, his widow is really upset and, you know, the community's pretty shaken. They don't know what's happening and what the reason was behind it. They didn't find money on him, you know, anywhere or would have been burned up, but there's no evidence of that except, except the coin purse. So he might have had that coin purse either taken or burned up, but there was just the clasp and that was it. So any other thoughts before I have the next big development? Because it's a big one.
- [27:02]
Paul Holz
You know, fire scenes are in many ways the worst. You know, when it comes to really having a good sense as to what was present, what wasn't present, what happened. You talk about, you know, money on his person. I mean, he could have had a briefcase full of money. The offender took the briefcase and then set everything on fire. You'd never know that, you know. So that's where right now we just, just don't know what is going on. In this case.
- [27:35]
Public Investing Advertiser
Support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like ETFs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member finra NSIP Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comdisclosures hi, I'm.
- [28:36]
Cindy Crawford
Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like I never liked being told, oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful beauty, beautiful skin at every age. Learn more@meaningfulbeauty.com.
- [29:11]
SpinQuest Advertiser
I'm here with spinquest, where you can play and win from the comfort of your own home with hundreds of slot games and all of the table games you love with real cash Prizes. Right now, $30 coin packs are on sale for $10. For new users. It's all@spinquest.com that's s p I n.
- [29:32]
Paul Holz
Q u e-t.com SpinQuest is a free.
- [29:34]
Public Investing Advertiser
To play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.
- [29:42]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Well, let me tell you about a more advanced autopsy that they do, and I'll give you those results. And then, and then the big one comes. Okay, so we have a doctor who comes in to look at him, and they're looking for stomach contents, that kind of thing. First, the investigators think something weird is happening because they find buttons of overalls in the ashes. The next day, once this thing has burned down. Alex was very successful. He had a lot of money. He did not wear overalls. So they were confused about why they would find, you know, the buttons of overalls underneath the body at the time. Of course, you know, he could have. Who knows why he had those? Maybe the worker who was with him had taken off his overalls. They just make a note of it. Then they get to the autopsy. So he only had grapes in his stomach, and it sounds like he had eaten at least one or two other restaurants during the day. And so they thought that was a little bit weird. And then the weirdest part is that they look at his spine, and Alex is taller than the person whose spine this belongs to. And so now they start to say, we don't know if this is Alex Kales.
- [30:56]
Paul Holz
So, you know, like, if I'm working a case and I have a pathologist, tell me, oh, these remains are not in line with the stature of what is known about the victim? It's. Okay, let's dig into that. What happens to the human body when it is burned? Are there any studies that show that human body either expands or contracts? And can. Can you accurately estimate the height of this body, the weight of this body, etc, you know, after such a dramatic impact on it, I would need to know that now, today, even with charred remains, there's a chance we could do successful DNA testing. The dentin inside the teeth that are protected by the hardest Substance in the body often can produce DNA results when other bones or other tissues in the body you won't be successful with, you know, so we would be able to definitively identify this body with modern technology, in all likelihood. But now, 1920s, they couldn't do that. So now you're relying on this pathologist. It's like, well, what are you telling me, Doc? Are you telling me this possibly isn't Alex? And now that opens up the direction of the investigation. It's like, okay, now, is Alex staging his own death?
- [32:28]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Have you had that before? Have you ever worked that kind of a case?
- [32:31]
Paul Holz
Not directly, no. Not, not, not that. Nothing that's popping into my head. I'm aware of cases in which, you know, people have done that, but I mean, obviously in this scenario, it's something that you have to consider. You know, it's like, wow. Yeah, yeah, we got a body we can't visually identify due to the, you know, the fire damage. And now we have a pathologist saying this body is not consistent with the stature of who we presumed the body was, Alex. So it's like, okay, so what are the set of circumstances in which this would happen? You know, and, and part of it, of course, is going to be, well, maybe the victim is, is staging his own death for whatever reason. But you also have to consider, you know, is there other scenarios in which, let's say an offender has abducted and, or killed Alex, but wants authorities to believe that the car possesses Alex's body, so they no longer are trying to find Alex. And there's. There's a variety of different other reasons, but, you know, it does open the door in terms of, well, where are we going? You know, where is this going? You know, and, and now, as I always say, the victimology, what's going on? It's huge what is going on, you know, and, and, you know, why would Ale stage his own death or what would cause Alex to be killed, but then a different body substituted for Alex? You know, maybe he's kept alive, but he's been abducted for whatever reason.
- [34:10]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Well, let's do a little victimology here. They look at his finances because they are. Everybody's suspicious at this point. I think the spine part, I think the stomach contents part, I think the overalls, they thought that was really weird. Then they look at his finances and they talk to his banker. So he had a very large ranch, expensive slaughterhouse. He had a bungalow home, very modern, and he was overextended. And when the livestock prices dropped, like I told you, they did There was so much strain on him that it was clearly stressing him out. And his wife had said that, yes, he was stressed out by this. Doesn't mean that that's what happened with him. But if you were trying to get in, you know, the. The victim's head here, he seems to have a pretty good reason for staging his own death. Who is the guy in the car, if that's what happened?
- [35:02]
Paul Holz
I would say during this era, it's like, is there any reported grave robberies? Right. And now you throw that body into the car and make off. But Alex, he could benefit by staging his own death and disappearing. Whoever he owes money to, they don't benefit by killing him. Right. You know, they want his money, so it's less likely that they would off the person that they're trying to extract money from. Unless, you know, Alex showed up again with the briefcase full of all sorts of money, and then they decided, you know what? We gotta. We gotta get rid of this guy. After they got their. Their proceeds from the briefcase.
- [35:46]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Mm. So who would be motivated to kill him in this way? Somebody is gonna see this. It's on a remote ranch, but obviously somebody saw it. The last time somebody saw him was at 7:30 at night. His body's discovered at 9pm this obviously wasn't the best hiding place, and it's in an open field. So, you know, I'm trying to climb inside the head of the offender here. And why would this be a good idea at all? I know you set fire as really destructive, but other than that.
- [36:17]
Paul Holz
Yeah, but this. This scenario, you know, setting fire with haystacks, you know, with a vehicle inside of it, I mean, it's. It's a huge signal that, oh, something's wrong and people are going to rush to it. And the offender has to know that.
- [36:33]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Why would an offender want to do that, though?
- [36:35]
Paul Holz
Maybe it's to send a message. You know, Alex is a prominent person, the offender. Let's say the offender has a relationship with Alex at whether it's, you know, financial, whatever. And then Alex does something that the offender doesn't like. And the offender needs to send a message because the offender has other clients that he has similar relationships with. I'm kind of, you know, in a different scale. I'm thinking about a drug dealer who has somebody who's like, let's say, hey, can I get a dime, baggie? I'll pay you next time. Can I get a dime, baggie? I'll pay you next time. And never pays. Pretty soon, that drug dealer has to send a message, because he can't have all his customers doing that because he'll never make money. So he sends a message by killing the person that owes him money. And then all his other customers go, oh, shit, I better step up. Is that what's going on here? The offender is doing this dramatic homicide with a fire in the middle of a hay field. So everybody knows what's going on and now is sending a message to whoever else. You better get in line, or the same thing is going to happen to you.
- [37:55]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Okay, well, let's head next to people thinking they see Alex around, and this is where things really kind of ramp up. So there's a call that comes in from Nevada that Alex had been sighted there. Do people know him in Nevada? I don't know. But he's spotted a couple days later. A man who does business with Alex reports that Alex avoided eye contact with him in Reno. So now we have somebody who says, I know this guy, and he wasn't looking me in the eye. There's another local, George Williams, who says that he saw Alex aboard a westbound train. And so when you have all these people, you know, who are saying that we know Alex and he's there, then, of course, the sheriff is now trying to put all of this together. And on October 1, the police in Eureka, California, There are reports called in that there is an unknown man carrying a rifle at the rail yard inside a boxcar. They find the man. The gun is loaded. He has it jammed in his mouth, and he's trying to pull the trigger with his toe. And when they stop him, he identifies himself as Alex Kells from Lodi. You still don't believe it, Paul?
- [39:09]
Paul Holz
Yeah, let's. You know, I need proof. Do they establish his Identity? We're talking 1920s. Fingerprints were available, you know, but not necessarily for everybody. And then, of course, if he's still alive, then you have people who know Alex who could establish identity.
- [39:29]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah, and, you know, you have these business people who had worked with him who saw him.
- [39:32]
Paul Holz
Absolutely.
- [39:33]
Kate Winkler Dawson
So then he gets taken to the Stockton county jail on October 3rd and is identified. Now, his wife is not brought down, and they say it's because she's pregnant. She doesn't know anything about it except the fact that he's dead, and they don't want her to have a miscarriage or anything like that. But the sheriff questions him, and Alex confesses because of the financial situation he's in. And I'll tell you what he's confessing to, he does say, and the sheriff did Find out that he had, in 1923, money. He had about $100,000 worth of insurance on himself, which is about almost $2 million today.
- [40:13]
Paul Holz
Who's the beneficiary? The wife.
- [40:16]
Kate Winkler Dawson
His wife and his daughter. And that's why he wanted to fake his own death. So then the question is, you know, how did this happen and who is this person and all of this stuff. But I'm sure you have questions, too.
- [40:27]
Paul Holz
Okay, so let. Let's say, okay, this guy who's failing to kill himself with a rifle by pulling the trigger with his toe.
- [40:36]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Get a different God, buddy. I mean, come on. Golly.
- [40:40]
Paul Holz
But let's say that is truly Alex. Okay, so he has staged his own death. There's a benefit to his family, so there's a motive to do that for his family. But generally, people aren't going to do that unless there's some other stressor in their. So there is something else going on. You know, let's. Let's take the scenario of Alex gets involved in the 1920s. I wouldn't expect this, but let's say Alex gets involved with the mob, you know, and now he owes a ton of money. He knows that, you know, if he doesn't pay up, you know, his legs are going to be broken, his arms are going to be broken, he's going to be in, you know, his reputation is going to be sullied, however you want to say it. And then he decides the only way to escape that happening to me is meet, you know, I need to stage my death. And the positive is, is that the people I love, my wife and daughter, you know, will. Will benefit from this. He's not doing this just for insurance money, unless he has. Has had a history of suicidal ideations prior to this. So I would say there is something else going on in Alex's life, particularly considering his prominent nature that is causing him distress to where he has to resort to this.
- [42:06]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Okay, I do have a side story, because I'm talking to you about this case. I think that I wish I had known about this case when I was writing American Sherlock. So in the middle of American Sherlock, I have a story. It's called the Calculating Chemist, and it's about a chemist named Charles Schwartz who was from France, and he was in Walnut Creek, and in 1925 when he got this massive infusion of money he wanted to make what would end up being nylon silk was incredibly expensive, blah, blah, blah. So he received a large infusion of money from a lot of different investors, including his wife's family. He had a couple of kids with her. They lived in Walnut Creek. He had a whole factory set up. He is by himself. He has a security guard because he's gotten threats. Also, he's by himself. And the factory catches on fire, and basically he explodes. Right. Because he's using some bad chemicals. And immediately the police chief calls in my guy, Oscar Heinrich, who goes in and says, this was not a chemical accident. He did not blow himself up. The accelerant is right here. It is not the same as any chemical that is found in this whole factory. And then they do the autopsy, of which I have the most disgusting photos of a completely burned body. And Schwartz's wife said, well, you know, he just had a tooth extracted, and the corpse was missing a tooth, and it wasn't burned enough where it was not identifiable to my forensic scientist. He said, after the guy died, it was chipped out, based on, like, the clotting, I guess. This was not something that was extracted. And with the spine, it was much shorter. And so Schwartz had done this. He had found a doppelganger, itinerant minister. He put an ad in, I want to hire you. The guy shows up, he kills him. And Schwartz's plan, though, was to take money, not tell his family and take.
- [44:07]
Paul Holz
Off because, you know, he established a separate life.
- [44:11]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yep. He had other girlfriends on the side. In fact, he was getting ready to be sued with one of those heart bomb suits I told you about, where he slept with a woman and said, I'll marry you, and then he dumps her after they sleep together, and she was suing him. So there was a lot of stuff crumbling in because he was not producing what he was supposed to be producing. But it's almost the same thing. And what it makes me think about is that because this is the case with Alex Kells was widely reported. I wonder if this is where Schwartz got it from, because Schwartz did this in 25, Kells happened in 23. Schwartz was in Walnut Creek. This is Lodi. Right. And it's very similar, very similar circumstances. And the way it was kind of pulled off and everything he had. Schwartz had a lot of life insurance, and he did say he had tons of death threats against him. And they used stomach contents to prove it wasn't Charles Schwartz, because they knew what he ate for dinner, and it wasn't in the person's body. That's why it's funny, because I keep thinking, oh, who kills doppelgangers? I just think that's wild. But if I hadn't read If I hadn't written about Charles Schwarz. Now, nothing surprises me.
- [45:16]
Paul Holz
Yeah, well, you know, and this is where back before modern technology, you know, everybody's relying on physical characteristics and that that's what these offenders were taking advantage of. You know, find somebody who looks like me or looks like so and so and kill them and set, you know, the circumstances up to where now, you know, the authorities go, oh, yes, obviously he's missing a tooth, same tooth that the known victim is missing. So it's got to be the same guy. This is easy. So, you know, with, with Alex, he sets, he stages his own death, but he's found, I think you said, up in Eureka. Yeah, in a train. What's going on there? I always say when you see contradiction, stop and think about it. If he is merely staging his death for his wife and daughter to get insurance money and then he's found later trying to kill himself, why doesn't he try to kill himself in his own car in that hayfield? Yeah, he is trying to survive and he's trying to maybe move away from his life, you know, so his wife and daughter receive insurance money. He feels good that, you know, these people that were in his life are financially benefiting from it. And now he's moving on. But then he's getting cornered and he's recognizing, oh, I've been caught, and now he wants his blow his head off, but is completely incompetent to do that.
- [47:04]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah. And I think what comes out is his wife will say eventually that he's been mentally unstable for quite a while. I don't know if people believe that, but let me tell you what he says. He says, I did it, can't take it anymore. He said that he hired the stranger I told you about. Remember he went to the employment office and said, I need to hire somebody. That's who he hires. He called him a ragged stranger from the public employment office. He called him Mack. He doesn't remember the guy's name. He said he drove Mack to his ranch and then he shot him twice in the head with a.32 automatic handgun. He said Mack was still alive after he shot him twice. So he beat him with an iron bar. He said he put the body in a burlap sack, put it in the back of the car and continued with his day's work as usual. Then he, at 8 o' clock that night, heads back to the ranch. He said he built a haystack around Mac's body and lit a candle. But then he says he abandoned his car. I Think he must mean that they put. Maybe he put hay in or near the body or around the body, inside the car and then set it on fire. Must have been what he did. And then he said he left on foot and went back towards Sacramento, and then he went to Arizona and Texas and all over the place to try to get away from all of this. And he said he was ashamed by the financial situation he had been in. That's what he said the motivation was. It was shame by how overextended he was. He was going to have to file for bankruptcy. So, you know, that's kind of the conclusion. The investigators believed everything he said.
- [48:45]
Paul Holz
So the autopsy on Mac's body, he shot a couple of times in the head with a. A. 32. He's been beaten, you said with a hammer.
- [48:55]
Kate Winkler Dawson
He said with an iron bar.
- [48:57]
Paul Holz
Iron bar. Okay. So a good evaluation of Max skull should show the perforation by bullets. This is very distinctive. And. And even the. The defects, the bullet hole defects will show directionality coming from outside in. Now, beaten by an iron bar probably also is leaving distinctive aspects. But the complication, of course, is the fire. But the perforation of the skull by bullets, that should be pretty obvious.
- [49:31]
Kate Winkler Dawson
I have a conflicting information about that in my packet. A source that I found said it was an old newspaper article, said, you know, the autopsy showed that he had been shot, but my packet says that doesn't say that. And, you know, let me just see if there's any other detail, because that's a pretty big difference.
- [49:48]
Paul Holz
Well, you know, in many ways, though, all this is doing is either corroborating or refuting. Yeah, the details that Alex is providing of what he did to Mac, you know, and if the pathologist is saying, yeah, I'm seeing small caliber bullet holes into the skull and a.32, the.32 is still with the body in all likelihood. It's not like penetrating all the way through and going to never Never land. It's probably contained within that body. They're probably not using X rays on the body, you know, to find, you know, metal objects inside. So if the pathologist isn't aware, you know, I could see where that would just be left behind. So, you know, now it kind of gets down. So Alex is making admissions he killed this random who maybe physically somewhat matched him and staged it like his own death. It now is really. Okay, you've made an admission to that. Are you telling the truth about the motive?
- [50:50]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Mm. What he says his plan was. He said, you know, I was totally humiliated. I'M gonna have to file for bankruptcy. I didn't wanna do that to my family. He said that his plan was that he would fake his own death, murder an innocent man doing it. He was gonna set the scene up to make investigators believe that the body was his. And then he was gonna go to Mexico. His wife and kids were going to get the insurance money so they would be fine. His name would be saved so he wouldn't have to go into bankruptcy. And that he was cited in Reno. And he knew it because he looked down and he knew that somebody was going to call, that the business associate was going to call the police. And he said, you know, I should have gone to Mexico immediately. But he said, I didn't. And I kept seeing, he said, staring eyes everywhere. And he said, I couldn't take it anymore. And then when I got spotted, I thought, well, there's only one way to end this now, and that's where we have the suicide attempt. He said he was just tortured the whole time by what he did. He could have gone, Paul, Immediately. I mean, this went on a couple of weeks, two or three weeks. He could have been in Mexico and nobody would have ever found him. But he just kept. Kept coming back.
- [52:07]
Paul Holz
And there's no information about another life. No, you know, owing money to some entity that he would be afraid of. Nothing like that. This is literally, oh, I suck. I screwed up, and I'm now going to stage my death and escape.
- [52:27]
Kate Winkler Dawson
He said, this is a quote. He said, you know, I saw these staring eyes everywhere I went. He said, sadly, seemed like everybody was staring at me. I couldn't stand it. That's why instead of going to Mexico as I planned, I wandered from place to place here. California, Nevada, Texas. I mean, just kind of all around California. And then he said, I knew it was dangerous to come back to this state, to California, but I couldn't help it. My friends and family are here, and I had to come. I don't know if this is a criminal mastermind. I think this was a desperate guy who did a terrible thing. But I don't see anything about a second life or anything like that. Charles Schwartz, from my book, was an. That's different. I don't know. I feel differently for some reason about this guy.
- [53:09]
Paul Holz
I'm not buying that everywhere he goes, you know, somebody was staring at him.
- [53:13]
Kate Winkler Dawson
You know, that's how he felt.
- [53:15]
Paul Holz
Yeah, I mean, there may be a level of paranoia, you know, Like I. I think about myself, you know, and the public notoriety that I've garnered over the Last seven years. And quite frankly, I'm rarely recognized out in public, let alone put myself back in the 1920s, you know, when, I mean, it was just the newspapers. That's the only place where you would actually see photographs of somebody. And, you know, so I'm thinking, okay, that, that sounds like bs, but if there's a level of paranoia that he's developed and there's a mental health aspect, then that. That's now starting to add up a little bit better, you know, for me, for him committing this crime and kind of explaining why he committed this crime.
- [54:01]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah. So he goes on trial. They don't tell his wife about this. At the time of the trial, which is at the San Joaquin Superior Court in Stockton, she's not informed that Alex is alive or that he's been arrested and put on trial for murder. And they're concerned that it could jeopardize her pregnancy. Never have I ever heard of people hiding that kind of information out of concern for pregnancy, for the offender's wife. I. I was a little stunned by that.
- [54:32]
Paul Holz
Yeah.
- [54:33]
Kate Winkler Dawson
They tell her after he. She gives birth to his son, that's when they find out.
- [54:37]
Paul Holz
It's almost, you know, erring on the wrong side of what you should be doing. You know, it's like. And I can, I can understand, oh, we want to be sensitive, you know, to. To her, you know, and. And not disrupt her. But this is where. Oh, actually, that wasn't your husband in the hayfield.
- [55:00]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah.
- [55:00]
Paul Holz
Your husband's still alive. You know, at a certain point, you just have to be able to deliver that news, you know, as tactfully as possible. I. I think that they were overly conservative, if that was a real reason for not telling.
- [55:17]
Kate Winkler Dawson
They identify the man who Kells killed. He was a 60 year old man. He was the guy from the public employment office. His name was Edward Ed Meserve. He was an itinerant farmhand, and he worked temporary jobs and he had just gotten there that day.
- [55:36]
Paul Holz
Wow.
- [55:37]
Kate Winkler Dawson
And they have the proof. There's a note that basically has Kells name saying that he hired him for $2.50, which would have been about 50 bucks today for chores, you know. And then Kells said, yeah, that was him. So Kells goes on trial and the wife doesn't know for a month. Can you believe that? He refuses counsel. He is convicted, and he is sentenced to death. And then they tell her, she gets incredibly upset and starts just, I mean, ripping into everyone and says, we need a new trial. If you had talked to me, I would have Said, number one, we're getting you an attorney. And number two, you're mounting an insanity defense because you have been unstable for a couple of years at least.
- [56:21]
Paul Holz
Okay.
- [56:21]
Kate Winkler Dawson
That's where kind of we were heading. People ignore her, and he ends up at Folsom State Prison. After talking to her, the warden says, we need to look at Alex's case. And this is interesting. Tell me what you think about this. They try to figure out whether or not this guy is insane. This is their solution. On December 21st. So this is two months after he is put on death row. There's a doctor named Leo I. Stanley. He is the San Quentin prison physician. He takes samples of Alex's spinal fluid, and he's looking for neurological infections or conditions that might cause this kind of distress. But he doesn't find anything, and Alex is declared sane. What do you think about that method? Spinal fluid? Fluid?
- [57:06]
Paul Holz
You know, I don't know what would be found in spinal fluid.
- [57:09]
Kate Winkler Dawson
I know.
- [57:10]
Paul Holz
Especially with, you know, 1920s technology, which is staining.
- [57:15]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah.
- [57:16]
Paul Holz
Looking through a microscope, you know, it's so limited versus, like, functional PET scanning of the brain, you know, all sorts of things that we can do today.
- [57:27]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah.
- [57:28]
Paul Holz
You know, I think, you know, so by loose definition, innocence due to insanity fundamentally indicates that the offender or the defendant did not know right from wrong. In this case, Alex takes the steps to lure and isolate an innocent victim and takes the steps to obliterate that victim's identity through fire as well as other physical evidence.
- [58:03]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah.
- [58:04]
Paul Holz
And disappears for self preservation. I'm looking at that going. He knew what he did was wrong in many ways. He was hoping what he did would get him to, you know, be able to live a better life under a different identity. And a side effect is that his family was benefiting from his own death through the insurance. I don't see this as somebody who is not knowing right from wrong. They knew it. Alex knew it. My suspicion is Alex had other motives versus just. I was ashamed. The bankruptcy and all that. I think there may have been other motives. Maybe he was unhappy in his current living situation and decided, you know what? I just need to get out, you know, and he preserved his family's life versus the family annihilators that you and I have both covered. And the family benefited, but he still harmed the family by, you know, faking his own death. Then you have Ed. Ed is an innocent victim, absolute innocent victim. You know, and. And I've often talked about this true crime genre, you know, that you and I are both in now. And what Stories are typically covered is a lot of them are, are dealing with, you know, women or maybe even children as victims. Well, these are typically your true innocent victims. Men get themselves involved with stupid things or do stupid things that cause them to, to, you know, be killed. And they're not very interesting stories, you know, and they're often not innocent victims. But here Ed is an innocent victim.
- [59:56]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yep.
- [59:57]
Paul Holz
And, you know, so Alex is, you know, showing a selfishness to take Ed's life, you know, to benefit Alex's own. Yeah. So this is where it, you know, this is truly, you know, a horrific crime against an innocent victim.
- [60:14]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah. And both in my book and Charles Schwartz and with Alex Kells, they target the same group, which is what we talk about with serial killers. You're targeting a group oftentimes of people who don't have someone keeping an eye on them.
- [60:29]
Paul Holz
Yes.
- [60:30]
Kate Winkler Dawson
And, you know, like when we talk about some of the ones in history with sex workers and with itinerant ministers, which is what happened in Charles Schwartz's case, and with an itinerant farmhand, where nobody's tracking them necessarily. And so, you know, you have that situation where he picked the right person who might have never been identified if he had not made some mistakes. I will say to wrap this up, the Lodi community wants his sentence committed to life in prison. They do not want him executed. The governor says, bug off. This guy's dying. This is one of the most cold blooded and deliberately planned murders in the history of the state, says Governor Friend W. Richardson. He does not commute the sentence. And on January 4, Alex is hanged. His wife and now two children do not get the almost $2 million payout. They get the equivalent of $190,000 in today money, and that is that. You look disturbed.
- [61:32]
Paul Holz
Well, you know, I think, you know, this is where, you know, because I, I've kind of got a raw spot, you know, for, for offenders, families like the wife and the kids are innocent.
- [61:45]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah. There's no belief that she knew any of this at all. Yeah.
- [61:50]
Paul Holz
And. And so this is where, in many ways, this is where their victims, you know, they, they are now, you know, suffering from the loss of a husband, a loss of a father, earnings potential, you know, what, however you say it and you know, to deny them something just because of their relationship to Alex, you know, I, I think is wrong. And I've gotten to know relatives of notorious killers and, you know, their life is severely impacted. And to the point to where you have the online trolls, I can say, and I have to be Somewhat careful. But let's say Golden State Killer with Joseph d', Angelo, I mean, he had three daughters. And I will tell you that those daughters have been demonized online. They have no idea what their father did. They have no culpability of what their father did. Yet because of their relationship, you know, they are impacted to. To a point. I. I heard two of them the night that we arrested d', Angelo, and they were like, one of the daughters was going, how am I ever going to get a job?
- [63:10]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah.
- [63:10]
Paul Holz
You know, this is where family members of these types of individuals are victims themselves. There's a few circumstances in which family members are aware and. Or participated in the crimes, and that's a different story. But many times these family members are absolute innocent victims. And that's where what I'm hearing about sort of the decision with Alex's wife and kids, it's like, yeah, I'm disturbed by that. You know, they should have received the full compensation they. They. They could have gotten because their lives have been forever altered as a result of Alex's selfish actions.
- [63:49]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah. Well, I was checking to see what ended up happening with Annie. I haven't gotten a ton of information, but I know she died in 1977.
- [63:59]
Paul Holz
Oh, wow.
- [64:00]
Kate Winkler Dawson
She was 90, and she died in Lodi. So she stayed.
- [64:05]
Paul Holz
Okay.
- [64:06]
Kate Winkler Dawson
And, you know, they had two children, one of whom just died in 97 and had some kids. Their son, it looks like he died age 34. So I hope it was a good life. But she stayed. And to me, what that means, Paul, I don't know if this. What that means to you is people really did believe she was number one, a good person, and did not know about any of this? Do you think she would have stayed in lodi for another 50 something years if people didn't believe that she was, as you just said, a victim?
- [64:40]
Paul Holz
I have no doubt she was completely caught off guard, you know, and Lodi, even today, it's a small town, you know, especially in Northern California, you know, because as I've, you know, traveled through the United States, you go to some places and you're going, oh, my God. How does this even exist as a town? It's tiny. The department has, like, three deputies, you know, but Lodi is still small, relatively speaking. And I can only imagine, you know, back in the 1920s, how small it was. And everybody, if there was any suspicion on Alex's wife, everybody in that town would be whispering to each other, and it'd be unbearable for her to. To stay there.
- [65:30]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah, absolutely. I will make another Note, I don't know if this has anything to do with this case, but they're all buried in a Catholic cemetery in Lockerford. So, you know, I don't know if that's part of his religion. And that explains why he didn't stay, you know, go into Mexico and stay. I guess I'm just sort of. I feel badly for him in a way because the nation's circumstances at the time was set up in a way where he was heading towards bankruptcy. He might have overextended. You know, he had a ranch. But this is somebody who came from Germany who wanted to make a better life for himself. He sounded like an exemplary citizen. People really liked him. That's why they said, don't execute him. And you know, probably he overextended. But also circumstances led to all of this. But he also meticulously plotted the death of an innocent man too. So, yeah, I'm. I'm much more conflicted about Alex Kells than I was about, you know, the other doppelganger killer in my book. But it's still. It's like a reminder of just these sort of. When people are desperate, what they. What are they thinking, you know? Right.
- [66:42]
Paul Holz
You know, and I think that there is, you know, you have to at least acknowledge the potential for a mental health aspect. But like I said, there's. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of self awareness on Alex's part that what he was doing was wrong, you know, and absolutely, from a mental health. For me, what that does is negates the insanity defense.
- [67:07]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah, absolutely.
- [67:08]
Paul Holz
But it does not negate the possibility that there's a mental health influence on the decisions he made. And that could be a mitigating factor in terms of. Of how he is treated in his sentencing.
- [67:21]
Kate Winkler Dawson
I had been reading a lot. I was really interested in the reason why people reacted the way they did on that Black Friday, the crash of the stock market. And I don't know if you remember reading this on Wall Street. People, men were jumping out of buildings to their deaths to a point.
- [67:35]
Paul Holz
Yeah, I remember that.
- [67:37]
Kate Winkler Dawson
So the identity that's wrapped up, especially in that time period. And I mean now too, with, with somebody like an Alex Kells, especially an immigrant coming here to make a better life with being a failure as a husband in business and just an epic failure. I can see that if he already has some instability to begin with. I mean, she didn't say that he's always been like this. She said it's been, you know, as of recently, which is probably when he's been under all this financial pressure.
- [68:08]
Mint Mobile / Taco Bell Advertiser
Yes.
- [68:09]
Kate Winkler Dawson
So I'm in no way defending him. I'm just thinking of why people do desperate things and the idea of your whole business and your life coming crashing down on you. I understand most of the other cases. I don't understand that. We do. I don't understand why people do stuff like Black Dahlia would be a really great example. I don't understand it. I understand this. It's still awful what he did, but I kind of get that desperation.
- [68:36]
Paul Holz
Everybody has life stressors and it's. How do you deal with those stressors? And Alex chose I'm going to kill somebody.
- [68:44]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yeah.
- [68:44]
Paul Holz
You know, so you know, that, that, you know, that's the fundamental truth of this particular case. And I think that that's, you know, you know, the reasons why Alex made that decision. You know, who knows? Are there mitigating circumstances from a mental health standpoint or anything else? But fundamentally, Ed lost his life because Alex decided to be selfish. And, you know, that's, that's what galls me, you know, what Alex's punishment should have been, you know, I think is debatable. But, you know, ultimately, you know, this is what crime is about. It's, it's okay, you committed a crime, what is your punishment? And that's going to be dictated based on the severity of the crime and when it's loss of life and when it, when it is obviously a pre planned loss of life, then you go, well, that's sort of the ultimate. You decided to go out and kill somebody for your own benefit.
- [69:42]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yep. Well, Paul Holz, this has been very serious. This has been my stressor you just talked about. Everybody has stressors. This case has been my stressor. But it's been interesting. And, you know, I think that with every one of these cases, we find things that are relatable to cases and to life today.
- [70:00]
Paul Holz
Oh, for sure. Yeah. There's no difference. I mean, this is, I mean, you can find so many cases that replicates this case with Alex today.
- [70:08]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Yep. Okay, so next week we'll tackle something different. Go have a good time with your seltzer.
- [70:15]
Paul Holz
To be frank, it's, it's working, you know, because, you know, with the bourbon whiskey, you know, obviously it's higher concentrations of alcohol. I found a zero carb, zero sugar, hard seltzer, zero fun. I'm not touting it as a health drink, but it's like, well, you know, so it's working.
- [70:35]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Well, good. Have another one for me next week. When I see you, I will.
- [70:39]
Paul Holz
I'm looking forward to it, Kate.
- [70:40]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Okay, Bye bye. This has been an exactly right production.
- [70:48]
Paul Holz
For our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia.com sources our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi, research by Alison Trouble and Kate Winkler Dawson.
- [71:00]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.
- [71:02]
Paul Holz
Our theme song is by Tom Breyfogle.
- [71:05]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac, executive.
- [71:07]
Paul Holz
Produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.
- [71:11]
Kate Winkler Dawson
You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook@ buriedbonespod.
- [71:16]
Paul Holz
Kate's most recent recent book, all that Is A Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to Decode the Criminal Mind is available now and Paul's best.
- [71:24]
Kate Winkler Dawson
Selling memoir, My Life Solving America's Cold Cases is also available now.
- [71:30]
Paul Holz
Listen to Buried bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [71:43]
SpinQuest Advertiser
Forget whatever plans you have this weekend because you're staying at home and playing on spinquest and there's never been a better time to sign up than right now. New users get $30 coin packs for just $10. All the table games you love with hundreds of slot games and real cash Prizes. That's at spinquest.com S P-I-N Q U-T.com.
- [72:04]
Public Investing Advertiser
Spinquest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details.
- [72:12]
Mint Mobile / Taco Bell Advertiser
Picture chicken nuggets in your head. Okay, now forget them because Taco Bell's crispy chicken nuggets are here and they're not nuggets. You know, all white meat chicken coated in tortilla chips for that signature Taco Bell crunch. A nugget like that calls for a sauce that can keep up. Introducing Hidden Valley Diablo Ranch, the iconic ranch you love. Fired up with Taco Bell Diablo sauce Bold meets Boulder Ranch meets Diablo. And it works. Crispy chicken nuggets from Taco Bell, a brand new classic at participating US Taco Bell locations for a limited time only.
- [72:44]
LifeLock Advertiser
While supplies like Are you a fraud paying American? 1 in 4 tax paying Americans has been a victim of identity fraud with Lifelock. If your identity is stolen, they fix it guaranteed or your money back. Last year billions in refunds were stolen. Could be from your salary, overtime or second job gone. But this year you don't need to stay a victim because this tax season fraud paying American is something no Americans should have to claim. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com iheart Terms apply.