The Lady of the Dunes

Summary

Buried Bones – "The Lady of the Dunes"

Podcast: Buried Bones | Hosts: Kate Winkler Dawson & Paul Holes
Date: November 19, 2025
Episode Focus: The identification and investigation of the "Lady of the Dunes," a 1974 Provincetown, MA, cold case—a story unraveled decades later, revealing the actions of a likely serial killer.

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Episode Overview

In this episode, journalist Kate Winkler Dawson and retired cold case investigator Paul Holes delve into the famous unsolved case known as the "Lady of the Dunes," discovered in Cape Cod in 1974. They dissect the investigation through modern forensic perspectives, highlighting the difficulties of victim identification, the evolution of forensic science, and the patterns of a suspected serial killer. The pair explore how genealogy and new technologies played a crucial role in finally giving a name—and a suspect—to one of America’s most mysterious cold cases.

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1. Setting the Scene: Cape Cod & The Crime

[03:33–10:44]

• Kate sets the scene with personal memories of Cape Cod, discussing how some landscapes inspire thoughts of concealment and crime.
• Kate and Paul analyze a photo of a kettle pond, debating its suitability as a body dump site—Paul deems it less practical than it looks due to water clarity and shallow depth.
  • Quote: “People really underestimate the buoyancy of dead bodies… they have a tendency to want to come up.” – Paul Holes [07:54]
• Transition to the focus of the episode: a true-crime case set in Cape Cod dunes, emphasizing the isolated environment.

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2. Discovery of the Body

[10:44–24:14]

• July 26, 1974: A nine-year-old girl and, separately, a 12/13-year-old girl both stumble upon a naked, mutilated body in the scrub pines near Race Point Beach, Cape Cod.
• The body is in a state of decomposition; hands are severed, and the head nearly decapitated.
• Kate and Paul review a crime scene photo and discuss whether the victim was deliberately positioned.
  • Quote: “This looks in all likelihood that she was put here versus… there had been like a big fight and then… she was killed.” – Paul Holes [14:06]
• The scene suggests an attempt to obscure or delay the body’s discovery but not particularly well-hidden.

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3. Crime Scene Details and Initial Investigation

[18:46–30:22]

• Provincetown Police Chief Jimmy Meads arrives. The victim is a woman, 25–35, athletic build, red/auburn hair, wearing a barrette, painted toenails, and found on a beach blanket beside folded jeans and a bandana.
• The scene is staged, possibly to mimic sleep or relaxation.
• Key details: Strangulation, throat slashed to the spine, bludgeoning (likely by an entrenching tool/collapsible shovel), hands severed, left arm severed to the elbow, pine needles arranged in place of limbs, and footprints/tire tracks nearby.
  • Quote: “The severing of the hands is obvious to prevent identification… the head may also be to prevent identification because of the face…” – Paul Holes [26:36]

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4. Forensic Analysis and the Problem of Identification

[30:22–38:54]

• No one locally identifies her. Theories circulate, including the possibility of her being a “Jaws” movie extra (debunked).
• The autopsy reveals sexual assault post-mortem (object insertion), and, significantly, eight expensive “New York style” gold dental crowns, some damaged—possibly to thwart identification.
• Paul notes the dental work implies she was not impoverished; the killer’s mutilations likely aimed at frustrating identification rather than theft.
  • Quote: “The expense of that dental work suggests that the victim came from… some financial means… The offender knew that teeth are often used to identify victims.” – Paul Holes [34:27]

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5. The Case Goes Cold

[38:54–41:55]

• Investigators follow extensive leads—canvassing, records searches, dental records distribution, using bloodhounds, even consulting psychics—but to no avail.
• The Lady of the Dunes is buried unnamed (“Jane Doe”) in Provincetown.
• The case stalls as the lack of identity keeps investigators from making progress.
  • Quote: “He’s S.O.L. without her identification. It’s so critical to get these victims identified as fast as possible if you really want to make progress… These bodies are just almost… not discarded, but… not putting a lot of resources…” – Paul Holes [38:54]

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6. Advances in Forensics and Multiple Exhumations

[41:55–47:35]

• Body exhumed in 1980 for facial reconstruction, then again in 2000 for DNA sampling (blood, later bone/tissue)—but DNA yield limited due to decomposition.
• In 2013, jawbone and teeth samples are finally obtained for more robust DNA analysis.
  • Quote: “Generally, you don’t want to keep your victim’s head on your desk—that needs to be repatriated to the rest of the body.” – Paul Holes [44:10]

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7. Genetic Genealogy Cracks the Case

[47:35–51:01]

• 2018: Othram and the FBI use advanced forensic genealogy, matching the Lady of the Dunes’ DNA to a living relative.
• The victim is identified as Ruth Marie Terry, missing since 1974, originally from Tennessee, with prior connections in Michigan and California.
• Ruth’s son, adopted out as an infant, had submitted DNA for ancestry reasons, eventually leading investigators to her true identity.

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8. The Suspect: Guy Rockwell Muldevin

[51:01–64:04]

• Ruth’s last known companion: Guy Rockwell Muldevin, whom she married in 1973.
• Guy is tied to disappearances and/or murders of prior wives, stepdaughter, and a young couple from 1950:
  • 1960: His second wife and her daughter vanish; home contains blood, septic tank holds human remains, but insufficient evidence for charges.
  • 1950: Connected as a cook at a restaurant where two victims worked; discovered clothing folding pattern echoes staging in Lady of the Dunes case.
  • Quote: “I think he is a serial killer… preying on people that are either in a relationship with him or are close enough to him. He possibly has other cases…” – Paul Holes [59:29]
• Kate and Paul discuss the psychological and practical reasons for Muldevin’s pattern of staging, mutilation, and possible overkill.

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9. Resolution and Reflections

[64:04–67:47]

• By 2022, authorities declare Guy Muldevin responsible—he died in 2002, apparently of natural causes, and was cremated.
  • Modern genealogy provided Ruth Terry’s name but not direct forensic links to the killer.
• The episode highlights the importance of identification in cold cases:
  • Quote: “So important about victimology… it does ultimately end up leading… to her killer and probably the killer of… at least four other people… But the conclusions… are so important. And that’s why this is a good case.” – Kate Winkler Dawson [62:57]
  • Quote: “Genetic genealogy… it’s turned out to be revolutionary. But it doesn’t stand alone… Once Ruth is identified now there’s a domino effect.” – Paul Holes [67:35]

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• “People really underestimate the buoyancy of dead bodies… they have a tendency to want to come up.” – Paul Holes [07:54]
• “This looks in all likelihood that she was put here…” – Paul Holes [14:06]
• “The severing of the hands is obvious to prevent identification…” – Paul Holes [26:36]
• “The expense of that dental work suggests that the victim came from… some financial means…” – Paul Holes [34:27]
• “He’s S.O.L. without her identification.” – Paul Holes [38:54]
• “Generally, you don’t want to keep your victim’s head on your desk…” – Paul Holes [44:10]
• “I think he is a serial killer… He possibly has other cases…” – Paul Holes [59:29]
• “So important about victimology… it does ultimately end up leading… to her killer…” – Kate Winkler Dawson [62:57]
• “Genetic genealogy… it’s turned out to be revolutionary. But it doesn’t stand alone…” – Paul Holes [67:35]

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Key Takeaways

• The identification of victims via genetic genealogy can reopen and resolve decades-old cases, leading to new insights and connecting seemingly isolated crimes.
• The Lady of the Dunes’ case is a testament to perseverance—in both traditional policework and the application of new scientific tools.
• The suspect, Guy Muldevin, fits the modern definition of a serial killer: his staging, escalation, and patterns of targeting women close to him were revealed only through compiling historical cases and finally identifying Ruth Terry.

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For more photos, evidence, and diagrams, visit @buriedbonespod on Instagram.

Transcript

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

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[Paul Holz]

And I'm Paul Holz, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Each week I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

[Paul Holz]

And I weigh in. Using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens.

[Paul Holz]

Some are solved and some are cold. Very cold.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is buried bones.

[Paul Holz]

Hey, Kate. How are you today?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm doing great, Paul. How about you?

[Paul Holz]

I am hanging in there. What's going on?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, my family and I do a big vacation every year. I make them go to places where I either am writing a book currently or want to write a book about, and so they have little choice, unfortunately. And I would say a few months ago, we went to Cape Cod. Have you been to Cape Cod before?

[Paul Holz]

Nope. Never.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Oh, boy, that is A definite road trip. And the episode that we're getting ready to talk about is in Cape Cod. So I went to school in Boston University, loved it, loved Massachusetts. I've been to the Berkshires. I've been, you know, all over the place. And my kiddos had never been to Boston or anywhere before. And so I said, let's go to Cape Cod. And I have to ask you about an od. Probably about five years into me really, really writing about true crime and sort of thinking about it and, you know, processing what happens crime scenes. When I would go into deserts or rural areas, I started thinking this would be a really good place for somebody to hide a body. Have you ever thought about that before? Not that I want to hide a. I don't want to hide a body, everybody. But I'm just saying, you know, like, where you look at it and go, it's isolated. It checks a lot of boxes for, you know, a serial kill.

[Paul Holz]

Everybody take note. No, Kate is planning a crime. I mean, I've experienced that. You know, there were locations within my jurisdiction that were. We found numerous bodies, you know, and they had been deposited oftentimes many years apart. But these offenders go to these locations because they know of them. And these locations are remote, and they're not frequently traveled. So they have comfort to be able to, let's say, get a body out of a vehicle, dump it off the side of the road. Road, let's say, down into a creek, or to spend some time trying to dig a grave, which almost always is very shallow, you know, so there are known body dump locations in my former jurisdiction. And so, yeah, as I drive around, you know, especially when I'm off roading, it's like, well, yeah, that would be very convenient to dump somebody down there.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

But in a very innocent, sort of academic way. You say that, right?

[Paul Holz]

Of course. Of course.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, my vacation photos, my favorite are the kids. But, like, really, seriously, just between you and me, my favorite are these two sites that I'm fascinated by that I think show to me the beauty of Cape Cod, but also just the creepiness. And oftentimes those two things intertwine with me.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah. Yep.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So when I think as a buried bones first, I sent you a photo packet for our chit chat. So open that up, and I want you to assess what you think about these two scenes, because I've said this before. I'm a huge mystery fan. I'm writing a mystery right now, and, you know, part of it will be set in Massachusetts. So open up the one that I Think it says Cape Cod. And then look at that first one. Cause there's a little bit of an explanation. And tell me what you think. Purely from a. Maybe this would be a nightmare to figure out if somebody is in this sort of thing or what.

[Paul Holz]

This photo that you sent me, the first one that I'm looking at, I'm assuming that's a, a lake of some sort. That is, the shoreline appears to be heavily covered in vegetation. It's very lush. The water is perfectly still, at least at the time this photograph is taken. And there almost appears to be like a fog. You know, it's a very kind of creepy looking area that this is something I would see like in a movie, you know, like a mystery, a movie, mystery type of thing. Now is Cape Cod. I mean, I know nuts about Cape Cod. I'm assuming it's on the ocean, right?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, yeah. So it's Cape. It goes straight down. There's essentially one road in, one road out. And this is in the town or village of Sandwich. And we were staying in a 18th century house. And this, this is what's called a kettle pond. And I'll enunciate because I'm from Texas. It's a kettle pond. And these are ponds that were created by glaciers in the New England area, you know, thousands of years ago. And they kind of create these divots. So this one in particular, I've been told was, is only about 8ft deep, maybe 9ft deep. So this is a pond, it's not technically a lake. So what I thought for a mystery would be interesting is if you've got somebody in this as a fictional story, if you've got somebody in this kettle pond and it's so shallow, wouldn't it surface itself as a body? Wouldn't this body surface itself much more quickly? This isn't the end of a, you know, this isn't the ocean or a very deep lake.

[Paul Holz]

Well, I'm assuming. Okay. This is fresh water.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yep.

[Paul Holz]

You know, do you have a lot of different critters that are in this lake? Okay. Or this pond?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

First time I've ever seen a mink. I have never seen a mink.

[Paul Holz]

Oh, okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So there's all kinds of stuff living there, Algae, everything you could think of.

[Paul Holz]

Okay. Yeah. So for a body, let's say the body is sufficiently weighed down, you know, I could see where the body could be, you know, at the bottom of this pond for a significant period of time. But it is, as I've seen in my own cases, people really underestimate the buoyancy of dead bodies, even body parts, you know, they do have a tendency to want to come up.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So when I'm hearing this, if we were grading this body of water for a crime scene, this is what, a B? A B plus, maybe for a fictional serial killer.

[Paul Holz]

The shallowness and possibly the clarity of the water because it looks like there's pretty good visibility through the water. Yeah, I probably wouldn't put it at a B. I'm thinking more D. I think I would like to have a deeper body of water. I would say that the shoreline, you possibly have better have a better chance of getting away with getting rid of the body along this heavily vegetated shoreline and letting the surface animals, you know, take care of the flesh. And then the. The skeletal aspects just kind of self bury in the muck, you know, with what I've seen with. With some of my own casework. But yeah, you know, I think the. From a fictional story, the setting is perfect. It's creepy. Yeah.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

A for creepiness. D, maybe a C, depending on how close we put it to the shore. As far as, like, the practicality of putting a body in there. Very good.

[Paul Holz]

Oh, I'm sure there's locations in Cape Cod where you could get away with things, for sure.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, we're about to talk about one. And this is a Cape Cod story that I think in Massachusetts, maybe around the country, but in Massachusetts at least, I think a lot of people know the story. It's almost approaching legend at this point. It'll be really interesting to see what you think. We are not in marshland, and we are not in a kettle pond. We are on a beach, though, in sand dunes. Okay, so let's set the scene. In this case, not only do we need to ID the murderer, but also the victim. So this takes place in 1974. This is five months before my birthday. So July 26, 1974. We are on the Race Point Dunes on the Cape Cod National Seashore. And it's warm July. And even though my kids didn't believe it, when we ended up going around July to Cape Cod, they thought, oh, this is actually pretty warm. And I said, I know it's warmer than you think. And just a couple hundred miles to the south of Martha's Vineyard. And that's where they're filming Jaws. Did you ever watch Jaws?

[Paul Holz]

Of course I did. I saw it in the movie theater.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Every summer, my family and I do a Jaws night in our pool where we cut the lights off everywhere. Like every light in the house outside in the pool, okay. And we watch Jaws and the kids think it's hilarious and we go underwater and like grab my parents legs and stuff like that. But you know, that movie is such a classic. It's filming during this story and it actually does come into play. There's a nine year old girl who's running along the sand access road and she has a dog. This is one mile east of the Race Point beach ranger station.

[Paul Holz]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And she comes across a gruesome sight in the scrub pine brush. I don't know what scrub pine brush is. I mean, I can imagine it, but I imagine very itchy and, you know, pokey. This girl finds the body of a woman. When the nine year old becomes a teenager. She is able to describe what she saw. But again, this is who knows how many years later. She described her as naked. She said, I could see an injury on the right side of her head and a little bit of a slice, which I believe they tried to cut her head off. And I have a lot, of course, more details, but this is just what a nine year old had remembered. This was a girl who was scared to death as anybody would be. She panicked and she did not alert authorities. Luckily we have another girl in the same area that same day. She's 12 or 13. Her name is Leslie Metcalf. And she's hiking back from a visit with family friends. I think they were staying kind of right on the beach. Her parents and the friends are talking when one of the friends, dogs bolts ahead and Leslie bolts ahead to try to get this dog. It's a beagle. It comes to a stop and it starts barking. And that's when Leslie sees the same naked body. At first she doesn't think it's a person. She said the skin is more the color of a dead deer. The woman's hands are cut off and her head is nearly decapitated. Now, I have a couple of choices. One would be we continue on when we actually have a police officer there, a very dedicated police officer who follows this case for years and years. Then we get our first kind of professional view and description of this body. But I do have a scene photo that we can look at right now. So it's kind of up. It's not the greatest photo, but it's the only one we could find. So you tell me if you want to see the photo first or if you want to hear from the pro first.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah, let me take a look at the scene. So I'm taking a look a photo and it's photo taken Looking into this, I think you called it scrub pine.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yes, scrub pine brush.

[Paul Holz]

Okay. So, you know, this appears to be a woody type of bush that substantial. Some of these look almost like potentially I see what appears to be maybe a 6 inch to 8 inch diameter trunk leading up to what appears to be like pine needles off of the branches of the tree. This is like a coniferous type of thing and it looks uniform. I'm not seeing other plants intermixed, at least within this photo, but. And there's a kind of a lower, you know, in the backdrop is where you see these, these bushes to tree height, vegetation kind of forming almost a wall behind the body. And where the body's at is sort of a flattened area. It's showing the body basically from the feet up to maybe the shoulder area. And I can't say for sure because there is some interference with some of this scrub in the foreground. But the body does look like it's nude. And based off of the orientation of the feet as well as it appears that her butt is up, it can be seen. She looks like she's face down, legs are completely straight. And from just the orientation that I can tell. And of course, I can't discern any types of injuries from this photo. This looks in all likelihood that she was put here versus, you know, she was. There had been like a big fight and then, you know, she was killed. The fact that she's nude, you know, of course you have to think that there's potentially. This is potentially a sexually motivated crime. But we'll hold off and form an opinion on that until more details come in. You know, this is a location where it appears the offender is trying to somewhat hide the body. It's just from this vantage point where the photographer is standing, the body is pretty much in plain view, just kind of. You've got all this brush that might, if somebody's just walking by, they in glance, they might not necessarily recognize that there's something amiss.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

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[Paul Holz]

Okay. Yeah, because I'm seeing what appear to be both of her feet to the left of the photograph with her heels sticking up. I can see both of her lower legs, calves, and then it goes up to where now it's just the side of her body and this hump, which I'm assuming is her butt. And then it goes down into her back. So at least in this photo, I don't see how her genital area would be captured in this particular photo. Unless I am completely misinterpreting how I think this body is oriented.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Let me tell you what the police chief says. Okay?

[Paul Holz]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So of course the family calls the police and the Provincetown police chief shows up. Provincetown is right at the very end of Cape Cod. And so it's a guy named James Jimmy Meads. And he just becomes a legend because of this case, because he just is relentless, which is exactly the kind of investigator we want to have on cases like this. He is one of the first people who shows up. This is what he says. The woman is lying on one side of a light green terry cloth beach blanket. It appears as though she had been sharing it with someone, because she must have been on one side of it. She had an athletic build. She was approximately 5ft, 6 to 8 inches tall, about 140, 150 pounds. Under her head are neatly folded wrangler jeans and a blue printed bandana. Investigators estimate she is between 25 and 35. She was wearing a barrette in her long auburn hair. It's pulled back into a ponytail with an elastic band, and her toenails are painted pink. And I will tell you before you start asking about wranglers and who owns what, she goes unidentified for a very long time. So we don't know. This is where he's starting with square one here.

[Paul Holz]

Well, this is 1974. Her hands were cut off, so the ability to search for fingerprints was removed by the offender. In essence, they would have to resort to facial identification, Going to missing persons reports and finding anybody that matched the physical descriptions of this body. And it sounds like they. They probably did that and just failed. And now this comes into, you know, who is the victim. How come she hasn't been reported, at least in the local area? What does that tell us about, you know, who she might be? You know, the victimology is she somewhat transient. You know, she could be somebody that's just deciding that, you know, for adventure purposes, just traveling around the country. You know, maybe she's involved in sex work and she just disappeared from her family. Family. And she's going about her business in various jurisdictions. Yeah. There's so many different possibilities as to why she hasn't been reported. You know, she could be a. Depending. You said she's 25. You know, maybe over the course of her life, she has episodes of just disappearing, you know, so family just assumes. Nope, you know, she's gone. She'll show up again in six months or two years or whatever. And never, you know, alerts law enforcement that a loved one is actually gone.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, let's continue and see if we can pick up on anything. I thought the pink toenail detail was interesting, which made me think maybe not a transient, but who knows?

[Paul Holz]

And I know, like, when I was using the term transient, I know it was more of is this is the victim somebody that is just is moving around versus somebody that is, you know, like a homeless situation and can't take care of themselves because it sounds like, you know, she's out there with a beach blanket. You know, she's, you know, I'm assuming the clothing is in decent shape, you know, because law enforcement, of course, would. Would probably very quickly go, oh, you know, she's one of our homeless that's in the area. Based on what they would be seeing with her clothes and her hygiene and everything else.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yep. So I'm gonna get through what Meads says the scene is like and what he finds at the scene, and then we will have more detail about the autopsy after that. Okay.

[Paul Holz]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It's pretty detailed coming up with what's at the scene. This woman's body is badly mutilated and in a state of decay. Remember it'? I didn't get the sense that this was direct sun, but there could have been sun on her also, you know, but the heat would have been probably pretty bad. She appears to have been strangled. Her throat they described as slashed to the spine. Her head was bludgeoned by an instrument which they said. This is interesting. I've never heard this before. The instrument that Meads thinks might have been used is similar to a military entrenching tool, which is a collapsible shovel. And that would have been very common in Cape Cod for, you know, dune buggies to get out of a pinch in the sand or campers. So he doesn't say why. He thinks that it must have been the shape of it. But she has been bludgeoned. She has nearly decapitated. The left side of her skull is crushed. You know, I had said that both hands were severed, and it sounds like missing. One of her arms had been severed up to the elbow. In their places, the killer had arranged piles of pine needles. I don't know if that's sort of a weird reanimating those limbs, but that's just the way it was described. There is no sign of a struggle, and there is no murder weapon. And there are two sets of footprints, which actually, I've checked. I think it is actually footprints, not shoe prints. I know those get. You know, they become interchanged sometimes. They said that one print is supposed to be like a size 10 shoe made by somebody heavy and running. I don't know how you can figure that out. And there's a set of tire tracks on a nearby service road somewhere between 15 and 50ft away. And that's where we're done with the scene.

[Paul Holz]

Okay. And there's no description of blood present?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

No, just. They said in an advanced state of decay, but blood would still be there, I suppose. Right.

[Paul Holz]

What I would be wanting to know, was there evidence of blood spatter? Like, you know, the violence inflicted to her was Done here at this location?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Nope.

[Paul Holz]

Or if it was elsewhere and, you know, was she transported here and then placed in this situation, this position, which is significant in terms of if the offender is doing that, you know, her head is on top of folded jeans and a bandana, I believe, almost like it's a pillow. And then the offender has taken the time to arrange pine needles to kind of simulate where her, her upper limbs would have been. You know, it's almost as if he's trying to position the body. Like she's asleep.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. Like she's going on a picnic or getting ready to go into the ocean and just she's taking a nap. How screwed up is that?

[Paul Holz]

It's no different than offender who kills somebody in their bed and then, you know, covers them up, puts, you know, the head on a pillow, you know, to make it look like they're just asleep when they're actually dead. So this is giving the offender, you know, the reason to do it is most likely to give the offender time to escape and time delayed discovery of the body. People just casually walking by would just say, oh, there's a woman asleep over there and not approaching. You know, if you think somebody's asleep back there in the bushes, how many people are going to start walking up? Because the fear is as well, what's going to happen if she wakes up or if there's somebody else back there. Right. So I think for me, you know, the most important thing is that did the offender kill her here at this location or did he dump her body here and actually take the time to make her look like she's asleep? You know, and I think that that's, that there's a significant difference in terms of what's going on.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I think as detailed as this is, if there were, you know, signs of blood, there's no signs of a struggle. It would have been noted if there was blood, you know, if this looked like where it happened. If you are, I mean, I hate to be graphic about this, but if you are severing a head and severing limbs, there would be a lot of blood, right? I mean, would it be everywhere?

[Paul Holz]

Well, it depends if the victim's still alive.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, let's go with no, I hope.

[Paul Holz]

I mean, the severing of the hands is obvious to prevent identification and the era of fingerprints and then the severing of the head may also be to prevent identification because of the face. So that's what I'm assuming in this case that the offender initially started to do, but then decided not to completely remove her head for one reason or another. The severing of the one arm, and I think you said it was the right arm from the elbow down. That suggests to me that she had some sort of identifying feature on her arm, such as a tattoo or a birthmark or something. And so that's why the offender chose to do that versus just cut the hand off at the wrist. Hey, everyone, Ed Helms here.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And hi, I'm Kal Penn and we're the hosts of Irsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

[Paul Holz]

This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy. You got a little Colin Firth.

[Paul Holz]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett. Here, listen to earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It's 1972. A young British family is attempting to sail around the world when disaster strikes. Their boat is hit by killer whales and it sinks in seconds. All they have left is a life raft and each other. This is the true story of the Robertson family and their fight to survive, hosted by me, Becky Milligan. Listen. Listen to Adrift, an Apple original podcast produced by Blanchard House. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts. This is Georgia from My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Don't miss Netflix's new series, the Beast in Me. It's a riveting psychological thriller from the team that brought you Homeland. The Beast in Me follows acclaimed author Aggie Wiggs, played by Claire Danes, who has withdrawn from public life after the tragic death of her young son. She's unable to write and is a ghost of her former self. But Aggie finds an unlikely subject for a new book when the house next door is bought by Niall Jarvis, played by Matthew Rhys. Niall is a famed real estate mogul who was once the prime suspect in his wife's disappearance. Horrified and fascinated by this man, Aggie finds herself compulsively hunting for the truth, chasing his demons while fleeing her own. It's a game of cat and mouse that sets them on a collision course with fatal consequences. The Beast in Me now playing only on Netflix. You will not want to miss this. Goodbye. Goodbye. I'M gonna give you a really quick note. I could go down a big rabbit hole with this. But the reason I mentioned Jaws is because later on there would be a theory floated by Stephen King, the author's son, that maybe she was an extra for Jaws, which was not very far away. And the style, you know, for the extras especially were these bandanas and jeans. Turns out to not be the case. It was just interesting to see what people were desperately, including the investigators, trying to pick up on because there's no identification, there's nothing. I will tell you, nobody in the vicinity in Cape Cod is able to ID this woman. Nobody is going, oh, yeah, I bet this is someone. Someone. So.

[Paul Holz]

Well, and maybe just to clarify, since you have knowledge of Cape Cod, you know, my impression is Cape Cod has a fairly large transient population base due to tourism. And it's only at if or at the time of this, this case that's even greater because of the movie Jaws that's being filmed. I think Stephen King's. I think you said it was his brother or his son, his son, you know, floating out. The idea of an extra. I mean, I think that's a very valid, you know, thought if this extra was somebody that, that flowed in in order to pick up an odd job on the movie set, you know, and has no connection to this location whatsoever. Definitely worth, you know, an investigative path to go down in terms of trying to identify who this, this woman is.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And I think you're right. You know, I do think you have a lot of people who are working small jobs, all still up and down Cape Cod. That's one of the things that I find it very charming, all the people that I can meet also, you know, 70s, this is the height of hitchhiking. So we don't know who this person is. Let me tell you about the autopsy that evening. The woman's remains are transported to the medical examiner's office the next morning, which is a Saturday, they do the autopsy. And thanks to the July heat, like we talked about, and dune flies, which are awful dune flies, decomposition is advanced. It's difficult to gauge the time of her death with much precision. They said it could have been between four days and up to three weeks before her body was found. But there is evidence that she was sexually assaulted with a block of wood. And they say post mortem.

[Paul Holz]

So, yeah, foreign objects, insertion. Did they say vaginal rectal?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

They didn't. It just said sexually assaulted, which I would bet is vaginal. Otherwise I think they would have clarified.

[Paul Holz]

Well, there's a reason why they're saying it's a block of wood. They must have recovered that object. So, you know, and did they recover it from the body or did they recover it from the crime scene? Because I've seen both. You know, sometimes the offenders will leave these foreign objects inside the body, and sometimes they pull them out and just toss them to the side.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

My understanding is that I don't think this is something that was found at the scene. I think this was, maybe it was based on, like, the size of the splinters that they found. But I believe that this assumption was made during the autopsy, not as something that was found at the scene. You know what I mean?

[Paul Holz]

Okay, sure. Okay. So they're forming an opinion based on what the pathologists recovered from the vaginal orifice. Maybe there was some wood, wood pieces internally, but they don't have the object. So there's going to be a little bit of a subjective aspect in terms of what exactly was used.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, here's the clue that I found. Really fascinating. So the most important thing that they found, they think at this autopsy, is her dentistry that was done on her teeth. In the 70s, it was rare for people to have extensive dentistry done. But this woman had eight gold crowns. And they described the style. I didn't know there was a style with, you know, applying crowns as New York style. They cost at least $5,000. It looks like the killer had tried to pry them off. And a guy named Dr. Stanley Schwartz, who is the state dental forensic examiner, puts the SK kind of back together because there were. It was a lot of broken pieces. And a chunk of the skull about the size of a hand is missing. A jagged 8 inch crack runs along the top. The cause of death is determined to be a blow to the head. So it sounds like when, you know, they removed the outside and found, you know, and looked at the skull, that it had been broken apart. When they put it back together, there's a big chunk missing. But the New York detail was really important on, you know, trying to figure out who she is. Is that interesting, New York style?

[Paul Holz]

Yeah, you know, I. I've got a 1975 Jane Doe who had extensive dental work. And there was a thought that she came over from Europe due to the type of dental work that she had had done. So I think that there is some significance to this observation. Now, you know, my question would be, is this style only done in New York or could it be replicated, you know, by, you know, people in other jurisdictions? You know, that's. Yeah, in all likelihood, that's that. That's the case. But the expense of that dental work suggests that the victim came from at least, you know, a. She had some financial means to her or her family did, or somebody she's associated. Did you now, you know, you said it costs like, what, $5,000 for these crowns? Now that's, you know, the cost of actually not only the gold, but all, you know, costs associated with. With producing those crowns. So, you know, this is where I'm thinking about the robbery aspect, if you want to call it that, in terms of the offender killing the victim, you know, and wanting to take her teeth for financial gain. I guess it's a possibility. I almost think another possibility is, is that the offender knew that teeth are often used to identify victims. And, you know, this is where the. The offender, you know, he's removing hands. He. It looks like he's trying to sever her head, you know, so he's definitely trying to prevent identification. And maybe he ends up resorting to, well, I'm going to take her teeth. Yeah. And, you know, what kind of market is. Is there for gold crowns? You know, the black market for gold crowns, you know, stuck in broken jaw. I don't know. I think that's interesting and I'll keep an open mind about it as we proceed.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I think that option number two is what Meades was thinking, that this is to prevent identification because he would have, I mean, eight gold, solid gold teeth or gold crowns. I think he would have thought people would have realized it. But I have a question about that. So he's going to all this trouble severing hands and, you know, the gold teeth, and he's sort of posing her. But you've already got two kids that have run across her in the same day, so why not do a better job disposing of her body if he's not posing her naked as a shock factor, if he's really going to all of this to try to hide who she is. It didn't seem like he did a great job picking the dump site.

[Paul Holz]

No, I think you're. You're spot on because, you know, at least with this photo that you're showing me, you know, it's. The body appears to possibly be in, you know, relatively plain view from the location of this photographer. And as you pointed out, you have, you know, kids in the area that are running across this body. So it's not like it's really tucked off the beaten path out here off of this beach. There may be an element where the offender wanted her found and he just needed to make sure that she wasn't identified quickly. Possibly because once she's identified it becomes obvious who he is.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, well, let's continue on. She is buried that October. She's in St. Peter's Cemetery, which is in Provincetown. Still don't know who she is. So her name becomes the lady of the Dunes, which there is a series on Peacock about that now. It's actually pretty good. So you know, this becomes a fairly well known story. As I said, it then quickly goes cold. Over the next few weeks, Chief meads and his 30 person team search the crime scene with bloodhounds. They canvass local motels, they go through thousands of missing persons case files. They send 5,000 dentists, the victim's dental records and the chief arranges for multiple articles on the murder to appear in True Detective. He's definitely looking, you know, he's trying to get everybody's attention. He consults psychics, he sounds pretty desperate. He's trying to find the hands and none of this has any luck. And so we're leaving this case in 1974. And before we move on to the next decade, tell me what you think so far here.

[Paul Holz]

He's SOL without her identification, it's so critical to try to get these victims identified as fast as possible if you really want to make progress in the investigation. And when, when you end up having a victim that ultimately isn't identified for months and you have other cases coming in, you know you're going to focus your energies, your department's resources elsewhere. And then that's how these types of cases literally, I mean they get forgotten. I mean she's been buried in a, basically a Jane Doe grave. And I know like, like jurisdictions that I've worked out of. I dug up a 17 year old girl out of Santa Cruz that washed up on, you know, on the Santa Cruz beach. And she was a Jane Doe and she literally was just put in a body bag and put in the ground. And we dug her up in 2001 and were able to identify her and get her back to her family. But you know, it's like these, these bodies are just almost, they're not, I hate to use the term discarded because there are some coroner's offices that do a good job. But, but fundamentally they're not putting a lot of resources of the burials. You know, it's a cardboard box, it's a body bag. And this is not good for preservation of the body. You know, decades later when technology starts getting to where we can actually do.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Something well, you are touching on what I'm about to talk about. Chief Meades is incredibly frustrated and six years later he's still in the force. And we have the body exhumed in 1980. They take blood samples, the skull is used to create a sculpture of her face. Meads ends up keeping the skull in his office on his desk until he retires in 92. I mean, Paul, this just goes on. She's exhumed several times. What immediately strikes some folks is the facial recognition, which I'm just going to kind of show you in a little bit because they do this many times. You'll see like a page full of what looks like a pretty consistent looking person. But I'll show you that in a minute. It looks like a 25 year old local woman who was known as a local criminal. Maybe she got crosswise with somebody, we don't know. You know, this is a woman who did armed robbery and was kind of all over the place. Ultimately it turns out not to be her. But in the year 2000, she is exhumed again. They take a bone marrow tissue sample for DNA testing. Then they compare it to a saliva sample taken from this young woman, the criminal. They compare it to her mother. And they had done this a little bit earlier, but it's not a match. They're back to square one. But they do continue to collect these samples of things. So now they've got blood and they've got bone marrow tissue samples and that's in the year 2000. So what does all of this mean that would be available in another couple of decades? Would this be helpful stuff to have preserved?

[Paul Holz]

Well, in 1980, collecting the blood after the exhumation, that's about the poorest source of DNA in 1980. They're not thinking DNA, but chances are because she's so decomposed when she's found, there's a good chance that the DNA in her blood is gone. I've had cases like that, you know, where even with what would be considered moderate decomposition and the victim's blood is devoid of his own DNA. So now you have a body that's been in the ground for six years and they collect a blood sample. I'm not sure what good that would have done them. This is where now you have to go after long bone, you need to go after teeth. You know, the dentin inside, you know, the teeth oftentimes is the only source of DNA because everything else has decomposed. You know, the bacteria has chewed the DNA up in these, in these bodies. So in 2000, during the exhumation, you know, they collect bone marrow tissue which it sounds like they were able to at least get some amount of DNA. But the bone marrow is not necessarily the best source of DNA from this body. Again, you go after the, the long bone, not that, not the inside the long bone, but actually take samples of these long bones such as the femur. You take her teeth, you know, and in 2000, this is right on, you know, where law enforcement labs were really fine tuning the modern DNA testing, this STR testing that was going on. So that sample might, you know, today possess enough DNAs that we could do advanced DNA technology on it if needed. I don't know if she ultimately has ever ident, but it's very possible that that bone marrow tissue probably is insufficient and they're gonna have to dig her up again. You know, outside of, you know, this chief keeping her skull on his desk, well then it's just a matter of having an anthropologist pulling some teeth and getting it to a DNA testing lab. But generally you don't want to keep your victims heads on your desk that needs to be repatriated to the rest of the body.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, don't worry. Meads is retired. Right. Okay. In 2000 they suspect a serial killer. A guy named Hayden Clark. He. I've never heard of this guy, Paul. He is known as the cross dressing Cannibal. He confesses. In 2004 he had mailed drawings of a woman he claimed to have murdered on Cape Cod to a prison pen pal. In a sketch, the woman's missing her hands. There's no evidence that connects him to this murder though. And the confession seems to be elicited by a culmination of the high profile nature of the case and paranoid schizophrenia. They even take him to the scene and he doesn't know anything. And he ultimately, I promise, is not the person. So this is another dead end. But they're keeping this case alive in 2013, just like they heard you before, they do exhume her body again. So 2013 they take more DNA samples, including from her jaw. So that's good, right?

[Paul Holz]

Yeah, so that's better. And hopefully, you know, the. Again, you know, I think if you're collecting some of the jawbone, you're grabbing some of the molars, you're grabbing some of the teeth.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, here we go. This will make you excited. In 2018, a little something happens with the Golden State killer stuff and the DA in Provincetown gets excited about this. He reopens this case. It's really Never been closed but he becomes more active in the case. And now the FBI is taking over this part. Later they would hire this guy, this forensic investigator named Paul Holz. So the FBI hired Othram and they developed a full DNA profile of the lady of the Dunes. And I've been wondering if you remember, have ever heard of this case because you work for aam.

[Paul Holz]

I, I can't say I have. You know, you know, I know AAM's website. You can go there and, and see everybody that they've identified, you know, all these does on their website.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

But she's in there, I'm sure.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah, I, I can guarantee she's in there. I just, I, I don't know. I have no idea.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So Othram gets it. They develop a full DNA profile of her. And this is 2018. The profile has been cross checked against numerous online genealogical databases. They find a close match in a guy named Richard Hanchett. He was, this is an interesting story. He had been adopted in 1958. His adoptive parents had worked at a car factory in Michigan. This is where we're starting, Michigan. One of their co workers was 21. She got pregnant and she said, I can't raise this boy, can you all help me? And they did. After his adoptive parents died, Hanchett decided to do the DNA testing and hoping to find his biological family. So he goes through ancestry.com that connects to a cousin in Tennessee and her name is Marilyn Renee Terry Hill. That year Hanchett attended a family reunion and that's where he finds out that his mother, 37 year old Ruth Marie Terry, has been missing since 1974. And this is the lady in the dunes.

[Paul Holz]

What is the story of Ruth, you know, why does she go missing?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, you know, you said earlier how important it is to identify the victim because DNA does not solve this. It is figuring out who Ruth is. Ruth Marie Terry was born in Whitwell, which is about 24 miles northwest of Chattanooga. She was a teenager when she got married the first time to a guy named Billy Ray Smith. After they separated, she went to Michigan. She got pregnant and gave birth to Richard. After she gave Richard's adoptive parents him, she moved to California. Throughout the 1960s, Ruth stayed in contact with the adoptive family to make sure everything was going well with him. In 73 she even tried to get in touch with Richard and he said, I refused to meet her. He said, I was a teenager, I was messed up, I was mad and I didn't want to have anything to do with her. And of Course he regrets that because she ends up being murdered the next year. Now we get to what is happening in 73. Ruth goes back to Tennessee and she has a new boyfriend in tow. His name is Guy Rockwell Muldevin. And this is the last time that her family ever saw her. Guy, however, goes back to Michigan. He's driving Ruth's car. He has a lot of excuses and ultimately the family had lost touch with Ruth and he said she was involved in some shady stuff. The family ends up thinking she went into witness protection for one thing or another, I guess really involved with shady stuff or in that world. So they essentially, the bottom line is they've accepted that they're never going to hear from her again. And I'm sure he convinces them of that. So now we're going forward to November of 2022. This is now a recent case, right? FBI agents hold a press conference. They announce that the lady of the dunes is Ruth Marie Terry. And they start looking into Guy because this is the prime suspect. He is an antique stealer. He is a womanizer, and of course a possible multiple murderer. I'm not going to call him a serial killer because I don't think he's going to fit into your definition, but we'll see. Ruth had married him. That was his fourth wife. He made national headlines in 1960 before he had even met her in relation to the disappearances of his second wife and her 18 year old daughter. And they were last seen in 1960 on April 1st. The police go to his guy's addict in Seattle, 1960s police, because they are searching for this woman named Manzanita Mearns and her daughter Dolores Ann in Chicago. So they go to his Chicago home. The septic tank was suspiciously filled with fresh concrete. And when investigators broke the concrete, they found bits of human flesh and bone alongside strands of hair inside the septic tank. And the attic, his attic is stained with blood. So whether or not this makes a difference to you, I don't know. But I do have a scene of the attic where this apparently happened.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah, I'm looking at this photo and it's a black and white photo which in the backdrop I can see a wall which is just studs. And then the primary focus of this photograph is this wooden floor, which I'm assuming is up in the attic. And then there's been a large, almost like a Sharpie type outline that has been drawn around what to my eyes looks like very consistent with what was a pool of blood that, you know, has likely been either cleaned up or Absorbed into the wood. But it is an obvious discoloration in a fairly large, you know, fairly large pool of blood. And then there's some satellite stains that are tough to really make out, But I'm assuming that those. They're similar in color. So those probably are other blood stains that are all encircled with this black sharpie mark. And there's a number associated with this location, 47A. And that's a fairly typical thing that, you know, CSIS law enforcement do is they'll put, you know, number stands to demark different items of evidence. And instead of using a number stand, they're using a marker, a sharpie, in order to indicate what. What item number they've assigned to this location up in the attic. And then the following photograph. Oh, wow. Okay. So the following photograph. This appears to be where they have removed some of the flooring. And so now you can see the. The joists. And underneath where this floor was is what appears to be a fairly large blood pool, that this is where the blood had not been cleaned up. And so you can see where now the blood has dried. You have dried blood crusts inside this blood pool, and you have multiple item numbers being ascribed. 16A, 14A, 43A. And this is fairly typical where if you have a blood pool on, let's say, a hardwood floor, that blood seeps through any cracks. It can and goes to the, you know, the sub. Through the subfloor. And that's what appears to be happening here is. Is up in the attic. They see visible staining on top of the. The wood floor. They cut up that wood floor, and then underneath that is now where they've. There's blood that the offender didn't even realize was there. You know, and this. This type of blood pooling, that's pretty indicative that you got somebody with a very serious bleeding injury. You know, I can't say there's, you know, enough blood there to say definitively, you know, the. That bleeder is dead. But that's. This is where you look at this and. You okay? Yeah. We've got the homicide scene right here.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, let me give you some more information. There was no body found there, but a few days later, there were legs that were found in the Columbia river about 200 miles from Seattle. They matched the woman's height, weight, and blood type. Investigators start tracking things down. Guy had rented a paneled van on April 6. The odometer seems to show that he had driven 300 miles, which is the distance to make it from his home to Seattle. And Back. And in the meantime, you know, guy takes off and he goes to Reno, he buys a sports car, he goes to Provincetown and then he moves to New York and he receives a nose job. There's not enough evidence. They track him down because they said you took off and there is a murder investigation happening. They charged him with unlawful flight to avoid giving testimony in the murder of his second wife. But that was it. There wasn't enough evidence, they say, to charge him with the murder of either the second wife or his stepdaughter. And that's why he made headlines and then he got away with it.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah, I think somebody dropped the ball there.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I mean. Yeah, come on.

[Paul Holz]

You know, of course there's, there's, you know, lots more that would have to be, you know, done in terms of building a case against him. But in essence you've got, inside his, his residence, you've got, you know, today we'd be able to prove, you know, whose blood that is, you know, but back then it'd be consistent with his wife or, or the daughter. You've got, got part of a body coming up, I'm sure. You know, the circumstances of his flight could be argued by the prosecutors. You got the septic tank, you know, with parts of bodies. I'm not sure exactly what all they found in the septic tank.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It was a bits of flesh is what they said.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah. It seems like if you really rolled up your sleeves as an investigator and a prosecutor, you could probably find enough to, to charge him with this. This, this sounds like a double homicide, you know. And then of course now you fast forward and you've got Ruth, who's got an association with Guy. I mean, he's got a pattern.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yep. And they're pretty convinced that this pattern went back to 1950. So if we're talking about trying to gather evidence against Guy, the modern day investigators say, wait. We knew of a case from 1950 in Humboldt county in Eureka, California. Right. So in Eureka, California in Humboldt county, where Guy's first wife owned a restaurant and there were two people who went missing. So in June of 1950, going back more decades, 28 year old Henry Baird and his 17 year old girlfriend Barbara Kelly were murdered. She was a waitress at a sweet shop, which is the restaurant owned by Guy's first wife. He was a cook there and Baird was a bakery truck driver. So this is how the circumstances play out. They were found dead on June 18 on Table Bluff Beach. Henry Baird had been shot in the back of the head. He had been stripped down to his socks and shoes. His clothing was folded neatly next to him. Barbara Kelly's clothes, except for her shoes and stockings, were folded underneath Henry's. There was no concrete evidence, though, and I don't know if they suspected Guy until all these other things start coming together. Barbara Kelly was never found, and it's an unsolved case even now. Nobody's ever been charged in this. So it's this. This would be too coincidental that this happened to these, these two young people when Guy has been working at that restaurant.

[Paul Holz]

Well, and then again, you go to, you know, the latest case with Ruth and her jeans and bandana were folded and placed underneath her head. This is. Why is the offender doing that? He does not need to do that in order to commit the crime. This is significant to Guy, I would say, you know, Most certainly this 1950 case of Henry and Barbara, you know, Guy is involved. Now, if they have evidence, if they have those items of, let's say, you know, Barbara's never been found, but they have her clothing. Is Guy's DNA on that clothing? You know, would they be able to close the case if they pursue that type of testing? Maybe they don't feel that they need to. You know, so I. I don't know what Guys, you know, is he alive today or. Or not? But, you know, it. There's a chance even as far back as the 1950 case, that they're. They could potentially get physical evidence in order to prove it.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, let's wrap this up. So 2022, they are all convinced at this point on Cape Cod that he is responsible for Ruth's death. They find out that Ruth and Guy were together for sure during the time when they were traveling and she was murdered. And In August of 2023, the District Attorney declared that Guy is definitively responsible, but he died two decades earlier.

[Paul Holz]

I had a feeling that that was going to be the case. You asked me or you made the comment of whether or not I would consider Guy a serial killer. And yes, I would. And I think he literally is falling into any definition of serial killer. Typically when I. I mean, you have people who commit a series of crimes, and oftentimes, let's say it's financial gain and stuff. And from my perspective, the psychology, the motivation for those types of crimes is very different than your fantasy motivated, your sexually motivated type of offender. Take a look at what happened to Ruth. You know, she. She's nude. You have foreign object insertion, and there's probably more sexual interaction with that body than just the insertion of maybe this, this would block, block, you know, so there is a sexual component. Henry and, and Barbara, these are people that he's, I mean, it's not his family members, but he's, he's close to, to Barbara just because she works in the same restaurant he works in and it's owned by his first wife. You know, I think he is a serial killer and he's preying on people that are either in a relationship with him, him or are close enough to him. He possibly has other cases, you know, than, than what has been identified here. I think it's unfortunate in 1974 they couldn't identify Ruth with any type of speed because if they had, they possibly could have uncovered guys, you know, prior crimes and he could have been arrested and charged for all of them.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I agree. And one thing I wanted to point out because we do have a lot of victims here. They never found his 18 year old stepdaughter and they never found Barbara, who was 17. So maybe that's the sexual component also that you're thinking of. You know, he had taken them away and hidden them somewhere after doing whatever he did. I don't know. But they were never found.

[Paul Holz]

And I think that that's like when you take a look at Barbara and Henry. Henry is shot in the back of the head. He's executed. He's been stripped down to just his socks and shoes, I think is what you said.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yep. Stripped down to his socks and shoes. And his clothing was folded neatly next to him.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah. With, with him having his socks and shoes on. That does not, you know, because I was thinking, well, could Henry and Barbara have just been, you know, out there on the beach and maybe involved in some sort of, you know, consensual physical encounter? And that's why Henry is, has been stripped down, but his socks and shoes are on. That suggests to me that he is now being forced to be moved against his will. And that's why his socks and shoes are on to the location where he is executed. And then Barbara is now forced to go somewhere else. And who knows where she ends up, whether she ends up in the ocean, she's taken into guy's vehicle and he's dumped her in the woods somewhere, who knows? But he's spending time with the primary target of that couple and that's the female. And the stepdaughter very possibly was somebody that he ended up wanting to sexually interact with at a greater level than his second wife.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. And you know, I, I believe they only found the wife's legs.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So the reason I think this case is a good case for us was exactly what we talked about at the beginning, which is the importance of finding out who the victim is. I mean, just from a compassion standpoint, it's important, of course, to catch the killer, but for these families who just have to spend decades not knowing what happened, and Richard, I'm sure, just so upset with himself for not reconnecting with his birth mother and feeling like he had been abandoned when it sounds like was not the case at all with Ruth, you know, all of that was so important. But it does ultimately end up leading. Ruth leads us to her killer and probably the killer of several, at least four other people. So, you know, we don't get DNA from him, we don't get justice from him because he died two decades earlier. But the conclusions, I think, and being able to kind of, at least with Ruth's family, be able to say this is what happened and were so important. And that's why this is a good case.

[Paul Holz]

No, and this is, you know, where this modern technology, you know, you brought up my current employer, Othram. You know, they've identified more Jane and John does than anybody. And many of these are not. Many of these unidentified remains are not victims of homicide. You know, they died for other reasons.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Reasons.

[Paul Holz]

But you do have these types of cases that once these does are identified and they are homicide victims, then the cases often are rapidly solved just because now you have a starting point and it becomes obvious who the offender is. And, and that's like in Ruth's case, you know, and, and I kind of, you know, with Guy, you know, he died decades before man I was. Would want to get a hold of a DNA sample from his remains somehow, some way, and search CODIS and see, you know, is there other cases that are unsolved because he was never arrested and uploaded into the CODIS system?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Would that not be a normal procedure? Well, no, because he wasn't a suspect when he died in the early 2000s. But I mean, if, if he weren't cremated, I guess it was still Paul. I mean, there's nothing to do with cremation right there.

[Paul Holz]

Well, there's complexities. You know, you take a look at, you know, when he's committing these crimes and they predate sex offender laws or the various laws that permit law enforcement to collect DNA samples from. From offenders and search databases. Now I think there's, and I am aware of, of some ways that you might be able to. Able to do something. But, you know, where is his DNA today? That we can get our hands on. Is he buried? Can we do an exclamation which is not necessarily a trivial task, but did he have samples, you know, collected during medical procedures, Was he autopsied? And, and do you have a coroner's office, you know, having tissue samples, etc. You know, it would be interesting to see if some cases could be solved if his DNA is put into at least a one time search of the CODIS system, which back in the day when I was still somewhat involved on the lab side, that was a possibility to do. Today, I just don't know if the FBI permits that type of one type search.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Let's see, he died in 2002 in Salinas, California.

[Paul Holz]

Oh, wow.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right. So there you go. So you might know somebody. And it looks like he was cremated.

[Paul Holz]

Does it indicate how he died?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It just said following a lengthy illness.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah. So yeah, with that, your, your best hope is, is that there were some tissue samples. Let's say he had a cancer or he had numerous blood draws or something that, you know, the hospital has kept over the, the decades. If he had a lengthy illness, there's a chance that his doctor just signed the death certificate and he never went to a coroner's office. But I would be checking anyways.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, this was not the cleanest because we didn't get the justice that we wanted, but still a really interesting case. And again, so important about victimology, like you say all the time and criminal profiling is one thing, but that didn't solve this. This was figuring out who she is, looking for clues. And of course good old genetic genealogy is always helpful.

[Paul Holz]

It's turned out to be revolutionary. But it doesn't stand alone as we see in this case. And once Ruth is identified now there's a domino effect. You have multiple cases going back decades that guy was involved with.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

All right, Paul. Next week will be a different case for sure and hopefully we have a better resolution.

[Paul Holz]

All right, looking forward to it. As always.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Paul Holz]

For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com buriedbones sources.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi.

[Paul Holz]

Research by Alison Trouble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

[Paul Holz]

Our theme song is by Tom Breyfogel.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac, Executive.

[Paul Holz]

Producer by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook @ buriedbonespod.

[Paul Holz]

Kate's most recent book, all that is Wicked, A Gilded Age story of murder and the race to Decode the Criminal Mind is available now and Paul's best.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Selling memoir, Unmasked My Life Solving America's Cold Cases is also available now.

[Paul Holz]

Listen to Barry bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

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