The Lipstick Killer PT 1

Summary

Buried Bones: "The Lipstick Killer Pt 1" (April 29, 2026)
Podcast by Exactly Right & iHeartPodcasts
Hosted by Kate Winkler Dawson & Paul Holes

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Episode Overview

In this episode, journalist Kate Winkler Dawson and retired cold case investigator Paul Holes examine the notorious "Lipstick Killer" case from 1945-46 Chicago. Through their signature blend of historical context and modern forensic insights, they analyze a string of three seemingly connected crimes—two brutal murders and a child abduction—that terrorized the city. They raise questions about the investigation’s flaws, the forensic evidence, offender behavior, and connections between the crimes, laying the groundwork for further exploration in part two.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The First Murder: Josephine Ross (June 3, 1945)

• Scene Setting:
  • 17-year-old Jacqueline Miller comes home to a ransacked apartment on North Kenmore Avenue; finds her mother, Josephine Ross, murdered in her bedroom ([07:50–09:57]).
• Crime Details:
  • Josephine is found naked, a red skirt wrapped around her head, silk stocking securing it, adhesive tape covering four deep stab wounds on her neck. Blood saturates the scene ([10:19–11:55]).
  • Blunt force trauma to the head and multiple stab wounds; no immediate signs of sexual assault, but Paul cautions this can’t be ruled out ([12:20–13:16]).
• Forensic Oddities and Analysis:
  • Use of adhesive tape to cover wounds is “unusual behavior” ([11:55] Paul Holes).
  • Offender placed bloodied items (housecoat, towels, tape roll, ripped bra, douchebag) in bathtub filled with bloody water ([11:55–13:44]).
  • Paul notes possible attempt at scene cleanup or evidence removal, e.g. obliterating fingerprints—though this is likely ineffective ([23:56–25:41]).
• Blood Pattern Forensics:
  • Clarification on "spatter" vs "splatter"—investigators use “spatter” for blood pattern analysis ([15:37–16:27]).
  • Discussion of blood evidence and the likelihood of multiple blood pattern sources, including cast-off and expectorated blood ([13:16–15:37]).

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2. The Second Murder: Frances Brown (December 11, 1945)

• Discovery:
  • Housekeeper finds apartment on North Pine Grove ransacked, radio blaring, bed soaked in blood. Blood trail from bed to bathroom ([25:41–28:19]).
  • Frances, a 33-year-old veteran, is found kneeling by the tub, head in the water, pajama top wrapped around her face, shot in head and shoulder, stabbed postmortem (10-inch bread knife protruding through neck) ([28:19–28:24]).
• Offender Behavior:
  • Continued “covering” victim’s faces—mirroring Josephine’s case. Paul proposes this pattern could be the killer’s “signature” ([28:43]).
  • Killer cleans the body with a douchebag, towels used to soak blood.
• Iconic Lipstick Message:
  • Killer writes on living room wall in lipstick:

    “For heaven's sake, catch me before I kill more. I cannot control myself.”
    ([29:42–30:33]; see Key Quotes)

• Analysis of Message:
  • Paul notes message contains elements of both confession and bravado. The “refractory period” of six months between murders is consistent with certain serial offenders ([30:48–33:11]).
  • Discussion about the limitations of comparing handwriting between the lipstick message and potential other notes ([59:57–60:40]).

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3. Police Investigation & Issues

• Forensic Failures:
  • Police find “no fingerprints” at either murder scene—Paul calls this “a red flag” and strongly criticizes the crime scene processing:

    “I can go into any residence and I can find fingerprints ... If he's saying I've got nothing, then he has done a very poor job.” ([19:42–20:13])

• Eyewitness Accounts:
  • Multiple tenants and staff report seeing a “slender dark man” with a white sweater, possibly stained with blood, near Josephine’s apartment ([21:38–22:04]).
  • For Frances’ case, a night clerk mentions a “nervous looking man” leaving the building at 4am ([40:05–41:26]).
• False Confessions & Interrogation Issues:
  • Introduction of George Cotreboni, a Cleveland butcher, who "confesses" under intense interrogation but is later cleared. The hosts discuss false confession pitfalls and the “Reid technique”—with Paul noting:

    “Historically, Chicago area investigators are known for their almost inappropriate interview techniques, which do lead to false confessions.” ([44:55–45:50])

  • Kate refers to police as “pissing me off,” critiquing their handling and dogged focus on weak or misleading leads ([54:14]).

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4. The Abduction of Suzanne Dinna (January 7, 1946)

• Crime Details:
  • Six-year-old Suzanne disappears from her home; her bed neatly made, sheets folded—suggesting some attempt to cover up the abduction ([48:16–51:23]).
  • Ladder found outside bedroom window (much like the Lindbergh case), but scene logic is questioned: Did abductor enter/exit via door or window? Evidence is inconclusive ([54:55–57:12]).
  • Snow and tracks used for impression evidence; possible fresh auto tracks noted ([58:08–58:48]).
  • Greasy ransom note left at scene, warning not to contact police/FBI and demanding $20,000 in “fives and tens” ([59:30–60:40]).
• Ransom Note and Connections:
  • Attempts to compare ransom note handwriting to lipstick wall message prove inconclusive ([59:57–60:40]).
• Witness Statements:
  • Family reports hearing dogs bark and men arguing overnight; others claim to see a man and woman carrying a “large wrapped bundle” to a car. Unconfirmed prior abduction attempt of Suzanne reported post hoc, possibly unreliable ([61:55–62:59]).
• Profiling Discussion:
  • Paul introduces “crossover offender” theory—suggests if same offender, he is opportunistic and potentially both a “situational” and sexually motivated predator, willing to attack varying victim types ([52:20–54:14]).
  • Questions logistics and psychological motivations (Did the abductor smother Suzanne in bed? Why tidy the scene? etc.).
  • Kate notes North Kenmore Avenue's repeated appearance, possibly significant ([49:42]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Paul Holes on forensic shortcomings:

  “If he's saying I've got nothing [for fingerprints], then he has done a very poor job ... I've seen that ... that's just them doing a half assed job.” ([19:42])

• Kate on police methods:

  “The police, who are already pissing me off to begin with, arrive at 10. So this is two and a half hours later after Jim has said, wait, my kid's gone." ([54:14])

• Paul on signature behaviors:

  “Anytime the offender does something that is not necessary to commit the crime, I have to pay attention to that ... That's going to be something as you go along that I'll probably revisit.” ([22:51])

• The Lipstick Note:

  “For heaven's sake, catch me before I kill more. I cannot control myself.” ([29:42–30:25])

• Paul on the message:

  “That messaging is in some ways a cry for help, but it's also possibly messaging to the police—I'm the badass serial killer. Let's see if you can catch me.” ([33:11–34:25])

• Kate's exasperation with authorities:

  “Well, he's in a nice area and in a big house. ... But this is definitely different than the other victims. I mean we've gone from apartments to a brown house that would have been fairly expensive.” ([62:37])

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Notable Timestamps for Key Segments

• [07:50] — Set-up and discovery of Josephine Ross's murder
• [10:19] — Details of Josephine's injuries and crime scene
• [13:16] — Forensic explanation: blood spatter, expiratory patterns
• [15:37] — Splatter vs Spatter terminology
• [19:14] — Investigation shortcomings: fingerprints
• [25:41] — Introduction of Frances Brown's murder and escalating signature behavior
• [29:42] — The lipstick wall message revealed
• [33:11] — Serial offender psychology discussed
• [40:05] — Second murder investigative leads and witness descriptions
• [44:55] — Interrogation issues and false confessions
• [48:16] — The kidnapping of Suzanne Dinna
• [54:55] — Debating entry/exit routes and the logic of the ladder
• [58:08] — Snow and auto tracks as clues
• [59:30] — Reading and analyzing the ransom note
• [61:55] — Ear witnesses and suspicious sightings
• [62:37] — Considering victim profile differences

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Flow and Tone

Kate and Paul’s dynamic is conversational and forensic, blending journalistic skepticism and technical expertise. Paul is meticulous with scene analysis, crime scene processing, and behavioral profiling, while Kate punctuates the discussion with sharp observations, contextual history, and reader-centric questions. Their tone is sometimes light, sometimes incredulous—especially at police blunders—but always focused on clarity and justice in historical crime.

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Final Segment & Cliffhanger

The episode ends with the kidnapping unsolved and more to come in Part 2. Kate urges listeners (and Paul!) not to “look up the case” in advance, promising to wrap up the series’ twists in the next installment ([63:23–63:53]).

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For further reading, visuals, and references, listeners are directed to the podcast’s Instagram (@buriedbonespod) and the show’s website.

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This summary covers the main narrative and analysis of "The Lipstick Killer Pt 1"—delivering rich detail and structured insights for those who missed or want to revisit the episode. Stay tuned for Part 2!

Transcript

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is exactly right.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.

[Paul Holes]

And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Each week I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

[Paul Holes]

And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old myster.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens.

[Paul Holes]

Some are solved and some are cold. Very cold.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is buried bones. Hey, Paul.

[Paul Holes]

Hey, Kate. How are you?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm doing great. We are dipping back into listener slash viewer questions for us. So get ready because this is. This is targeted at you specifically.

[Paul Holes]

Oh, no.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

But, but I can chime in. No, it's good. So someone says, can I shadow Paul Holes for a week? Lol. To which I say, me first. And then it's open field after that. What is a day like or a week like for you?

[Paul Holes]

Well, you know, it just depends on what I'm involved with. I would say my average week. You know, every day I try to make it to the gym first thing in the morning. So I wake up, I eat breakfast, I get to the gym. Right now my workouts are probably over the top. You know, they're hour and a half to two hours long.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Paul.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, your hip and your shoulder.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Your hip and your shoulder.

[Paul Holes]

But you know, as you get older, you gotta keep moving, right?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, I gotcha.

[Paul Holes]

So then I'll come home, I'll eat my lunch. I'm trying to pulse my protein intake across four meals during the day as I'm trying to put on some muscle over the course of the next 12 months or so. Then it's old man nap. And I get up from that and I never fall asleep. Like I've already said, it's more of a meditation. And if we're recording, then it's sitting down and spending. It's typically, what, three hours? Three, three and a half hours that we're recording. Or if I'm doing, you know, my other podcast, then I'll sit down and record. And then once that's done, that's when I start looking at my email, see if there's any emails that I need to get involved with. And then it's, it's dinner time and it's relaxation time, you know, at that point. So that would say that's my average day. Now I do a lot of travel, so if I'm, you know, helping out on a case, you know, I'm flying out to the agency and so that day is complete. Looks completely different. And then of course I do speaking engagements and you know, the various, you know, true crime conferences. So I can get very busy out. Out in the, out in the world, so to speak.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So your. Our schedules I think are not similar in what we do, but as sort of hectic because I teach Tuesdays and Thursdays at UT all day and then you and I sometimes will do Wednesday, sometimes we'll do Wednesdays and Fridays and there's a lot of preparing. It takes a long time for me to set this cottage up. I have to come in and put lights up and everything. I'm not that great at it. So yeah, it can be really hectic. That's sort of the, the nature of doing four or five different jobs because I know you come to offroom sometimes in Houston and you've been here and so we've, we've been all. I know you've been all over the place, especially with the conferences and interviews and st that you do.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, you know that, that is true. And you know, there are the speaking engagements. I get pulled into law enforcement conferences or training. But then, you know, one of the primary speaking engagements I've done over the last couple years is with library systems, you know, because, because of the book.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yep, yep. I love going to the libraries. I always have a great time talking either zoom or in person. It's usually zoom because it's just so hard to, to get to all of them. But I feel like I've talked to maybe a hundred lib. I started writing books and it's maybe more and it's just wonderful. I like supporting our local library, so I'm always happy to do that. Well, let's talk about this big case coming up. This is. When I say big, it's like three underlines big. And it's a case probably some people have heard of, but we'll see once we get into it if you recognize anything. But it's I think a case that's. That involves a lot of forensics. But I think it's like forensics gone wrong. So we'll see. I know which is it which is compelling, I think for you. So, you know, we'll have to see what you think about this Case.

[Paul Holes]

All right, Looking forward to it.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, let's set the scene. Okay. We are in Chicago in 1945, and already there's a little bit of confusion because this case is a pretty sizable case. There's a lot of different reporting, but I trust Dolores Kennedy and the way that she covered this case in her book. And so I'm going with her date, really, just this date at the beginning. So we're thinking about this. This is June 3, 1945, in Chicago on the north side. Let's jump right into what this scene looks like. So there is a young woman named Jacqueline Miller. She's 17. She is going to her mother's apartment, and she lives with her, which is at 4108 North Kenmore Avenue. And Kenmore plays into this story quite a bit. So Jacqueline comes home. She's gonna meet her mom for lunch. Her mom's gonna be there. She's 43, and her name is Josephine Ross. So Josephine has had a pretty difficult time. She had two divorces, and then she remarried, and she lost her third husband about a year ago. So she's finally saved enough money, and she's gonna open this restaurant, which is wonderful. 1945. It's amazing. And so she is very positive. And they are sort of kind of ongoing celebrating, and her mom said, come home for lunch, and so she does. So Jacqueline gets home, she unlocks the door, and the apartment is wrecked. It's ransacked. There are drawers that are yanked open and papers flung across the room. She looks in her mom's purse just in the living room, and she reports eventually to the police that there are just a few dollars taken from her. Her mom's purse. Now, I have just a very brief question about that. How do people know? How can you say that, right? I mean, unless she knew exactly what her mom had, how did she not know that her mom had gone to the bank and gotten $50 or something like that? I mean, I hear this a lot in these stories, don't you?

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, you know, I. I guess it's really dependent upon how familiar the daughter is with. With what amount of money that her mom would routinely carry, you know? Or has she gone on her mom's purse before and saw what was in there? So it all just depends, I think, on the circumstances. But oftentimes it's. It's probably more a guess than anything.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, well, Jacqueline is looking around, and she goes to her mom's bedroom and finds something really terrible. So her mother is sprawled naked across her own bed, and I'm just going to give you like a. Just a. A list of details of what the police will eventually see. Her mother is wearing a red skirt that is now wrapped around her head. And someone has taken Josephine's silk stocking, one of them, and tied it around, kind of securing it. So let me get through these because some of these are odd to me.

[Paul Holes]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

There is an adhesive tape that has been pasted over four deep stab wounds in her neck. But this tape has not stopped the bleeding. So there's blood that saturates the bed and the floor. It is splattered across the walls and the drapes and across the room on the radiator and then the pull. I don't know if Jacqueline does this, but certainly the police go into the bathroom. They see the bathtub. There's about five inches of water in it, and the bathtub is clogged. There's a bloody housecoat, two towels, a roll of what I presume is the adhesive tape, a ripped bra, and a douchebag that are all laying in this water, which is very bloody. So the curious thing for me, besides the skirt wrapped around the head, is that it covering up these wounds with adhesive tape. And that's all I'm giving you so far.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, that's. That's an unusual behavior that the offender is doing there. Description of the blood patterns within the room itself, where you're saying that there was, you know, blood splattered, which of course is not a term that we formally use, but that's what the, what you said. Do we know, did she have any blunt force injuries or is it just the stabbing and strangulation?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, we've got a coroner in this case and the coroner does the autopsy. He says there's evidence on her body of a struggle. He says there is heavy bruising on her head, which he believes is the result of being beaten with a heavy blunt object, which I don't think they were able to identify. In Josephine's hands, she has several black hairs.

[Paul Holes]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

There is a. This is graphic. I think there's a stab wound that has severed her jugular vein. You know, the coroner thinks this is what killed her. And he sees no sign, obvious sign of sexual assault. But you and I say over and over again, that doesn't mean that it didn't happen, number one. And number two, it certainly doesn't mean that this was not a sexually motivated crime. So he thinks Josephine died around 10:30 and her daughter shows up at 1:30. So we're talking about a three hour difference.

[Paul Holes]

You know, she had multiple stab wounds to the neck, but one severed the jugular vein. It's not an artery. You know, so some of the blood patterns probably are not what would be called arterial spurts because the jugular vein is going to have more passive flow. There's no description of any blood in her lungs or in her oral cavity. So right now I'm probably ruling out any type of expiratory pattern of blood, you know, at the crime scene.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Wait, wait, pause. What's that? What's an expired. I don't know if I've heard you say that before. Expiratory.

[Paul Holes]

Okay. So when you have blood in your lungs, in your bronchial tubes, in your trachea, in your oral cavity, the reflex is going to be, you know, to cough. You're trying to cough in order to be able to breathe. And when you put that force behind the blood within those, these airway passages, you blow out the blood and it can mimic spatter. So it's often misinterpreted. And this is one of the reasons it's so important to have the autopsy results to be able to interpret what kinds of patterns you have out at the crime scene. I have one case, a guy was shot in the neck at a motel and he was able to run to the front outside window and he has, it looks like blood spatter all over this window was all him coughing out blood. And so, you know, miserable. Right. You're literally are drowning in your own blood. So that's part of what, as I'm hearing, there's blood splatter. Now, she's had multiple stab wounds, so it's possible you have cast off spatter off of the knife. And then she does have bruising to her head. Now, if she has some blood, some pooled blood around her head, there's a possibility you have spatter patterns as a result of the offender hitting her. You know, the pathologist isn't noting any lacerations to her head. You know, and so that's where you can bleed significantly from your scalp or from, you know, parts of your face. And then if you are receiving subsequent blows, that could be a tremendous amount of blood spatter at the crime scene.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And I actually want to talk about those two phrases because, you know, I talk about them a lot and they're not interchangeable. And I hear a lot of people talk about splatter versus spatter. And so we know that. And you've actually said that, you know, when an investigator knows what they're talking about when they don't interchange those. So when I describe this as splatter it's almost like flung against because I have to or I need to find a better term to use. But the spatter is the actual pattern that people use and I think that they get sort of flipped around a bunch.

[Paul Holes]

No that that is true. So when you go through your blood pattern training, you know this is where you learn the proper terminology. So it is most certainly spatter. Splatter is more of just a laypers turn describing a general pattern if you will.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Mm, yep. Okay, so let's go back to the apartment because now we've had the autopsy. There is a police captain in charge. His name is Frank Reynolds and he is overseeing the investigation. So he says he doesn't find any fingerprints. Now, 1945, they would know how to pull fingerprints. But again, I mean, I don't know how contaminated this crime scene is. And I, you know, I don't think it's a science really at this point.

[Paul Holes]

Well, but I also have an issue with that. You know, I can go into any residence and I can find fingerprints, you know, just from the occupants. If he's saying I've got nothing, then he has done a very poor job. I've seen that, you know where, I hate to say it, but I've seen patrol deputies who are responsible for, let's say, processing a fast food robbery. And they say I black powdered, you know, around the cash register, no latency covered. That's just them doing a half assed job.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, yeah. And I know people say, oh, he wiped down the gun or, or she wiped down the car, things like that. But you know, even if that could be the case in this case, somebody who is like, you know, adhesive taping wounds and throwing stuff in a bathtub full of water is definitely not wiping stuff down. So I agree. I call BS on, on Captain Franklin. This is not a good course to go down too with the police. This is sort of the beginning of it. So they canvas this apartment complex or this apartment building and there is a fifth floor tenant who tells the captain that he saw a. And this is a quote, slender dark man in the hallway near Josephine's apartment that morning. So this is you know, I mean, this is not early in the morning. It is not three or four in the morning, five in the morning. It's light outside when this is happening. They think that this is a big deal. They have a lead. They say that he is wearing a white sweater. And the building janitor also reports that he saw a dark skinned, dark haired man wearing a light sweater. So maybe the same guy. And the janitor says it could have been stained in blood and he thinks he saw the guy climb down the fire escape between noon and 1pm now why this janitor is not calling the police or doing something, I don't know. But it, it, it takes the police coming to him for this story and then, you know, I'll just say Josephine dates and she had two romantic relationships recently. You know, they interview him and they both have alibis and this puts the investigation effectively into stall mode because, you know, they, they just don't have any other information. There don't seem to be, they don't see clues that's going to lead them, that will lead them to this guy.

[Paul Holes]

So you have multiple witnesses. So that increases the veracity of the description of this strange man that's seen in the apartment complex. The bathtub that's filled with the bloody water. And then you also have that douchebag. Is the douchebag in the water itself?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

The note says stagnant in the water.

[Paul Holes]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So I wasn't quite sure what that meant. I, I think. Does that mean laying?

[Paul Holes]

Do you think that's, that's what I'm, I'm guessing. I'm. There's no observation of fluid on the bed near Josephine's genital area.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

No. And the only thing that they say is on the bed is blood, a lot of blood, and, and the black hairs. And that's it.

[Paul Holes]

Okay. Because it, it seems like the offender may have tried to clean up. I'm, I'm wondering if there was a temptation, you know, like using the tape over the stab wounds, if there was a temp temptation to try to hide the trauma that, that he inflicted on her, you know. But that's, that's a, that's a very weird behavior. And anytime the offender does something that is not necessary to commit the crime, I have to pay attention to that. So that's going to be something as you go along that I'll probably revisit.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, let's, let's just go back real quick and go over what they find in the bathtub, which I found really confusing. There was a bloody housecoat which we have to presume is Josephine's Two towels, a roll of tape, a ripped bra, and this douchebag. And there's five inches of bloody water in there. And she had been wearing a skirt, so let's presume she was not starting the bath when this was happening. What is he doing? Is this his way of trying to clean up? And why is he pulling this stuff in?

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, my. My guess is these are items that he felt he could be leaving evidence on, and so now he's just trying to cover his tracks. Obviously, he's not thinking about DNA. He may be thinking about, you know, like with the roll tape, you can get fingerprints, you know, off of the tape. So, you know, most certainly putting that in the water could complicate the latent processing process for that item of evidence. But in his head, these are items that I think he's concerned about leaving behind without addressing the potential evidence that he's left on it. The ripped bra that seems like a clothing item that he really interacted with and is now recognizing. I need to make sure that that's not something that I just leave, you know, for. For law enforcement to. To get. But, you know, that I think that's more of an educated guess on my part than. Than anything else.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. And just for context for listeners and viewers, you know, this is 1945. Really. Fingerprinting, I think, became well known in criminal cases starting in the 20s, like with Oscar Heinrich from my first book. That's when it really started becoming known in the press with a Fatty Arbuckle case, several other really high profile cases. So whoever this is definitely would have known that fingerprints were a thing and could trip him up here. So I agree with your assessment.

[Paul Holes]

Sure. You know, and just. Just to say the latent processing out at the crime scene back in 1945 would be limited to powder, you know, dusting with powder, maybe using different color powders. But most certainly we have a lot more tools in our tool belt today to recover latents out at the crime scene.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, so nothing happens for six months. They have no leads on Josephine's case. Anybody who they think is possibly the killer in her inner circle has an alibi. And so nothing happens, which is pretty typical for things that happened in big cities. You know, if they didn't have any leads, they. And they couldn't do anything about it. So six months later, there is another murder. I will confirm that anything that we talk about is all. They're all connected. So, you know, when we talk about suspects, we're looking at the whole group that we're gonna be talking about. So six months later, it's 9:00am on December 11, and there is a housekeeper who arrives at her boss's Lakeview apartment on 3941 North Pine Grove. The door is ajar, which is alarming already. The radio is blaring on the inside of this place. She pushes the door open and she sees that the apartment is wrecked, ransacked. She looks at the bed and so this would be in the master bedroom. And the bed is soaked with blood. There is a smeared red trail that leads from the bed to the bathroom. Okay, so now we're, you know, in a bathroom and the police come. The housekeeper, I have to presume, backed out of this smartly called the police. Police, they come and they're the ones who make the discovery. Inside, they find the woman who owns this place. So she's 33 and her name is Frances Brown. She's a stenographer and a veteran from World War II. They think she was murdered in the bathtub. There are marks on the bathroom windowsill that indicate that the killer had entered the apartment through the bathroom fire escape. What they're describing is that Frances, the victim, is kneeling outside of the tub. Her head is in the tub. There is a pajama top that is wrapped tightly around her face. She has been shot by a.38 caliber automatic gun in the head and the shoulder. And then the coroner will eventually say he believes that she was stabbed with a 10 inch bread knife. Knife postmortem, first in the chest and then in the neck. This is one point that disturbed me. Just as a warning, the wound in her neck has been carried out with, they say, such force that the knife protrudes through the opposite side of her neck.

[Paul Holes]

So the knife's left in place?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yes, it looks like it.

[Paul Holes]

And is the knife hers?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Probably. They're not noting that. It's not probably, yeah, it's a 10 inch bread knife. I'm not sure who would bring a bread knife to a murder scene, but that's what it looks like. So post mortem, and I continue to be interested in the fact that he has covered up now two women's faces, one, you know, Josephine with the red skirt, and now one with a pajama top.

[Paul Holes]

You know, again, that is a behavior that the offender doesn't need to do to carry out this crime, you know, so this is going to be possibly what I would consider a signature. So we break the. The actions the offender does in order to be able to accomplish this crime. That's what we call the M.O. the modus operandi, and can change just depending on the circumstances as the offender is confronted with the dynamics of. Of. Of committing the crime. However, if the. The offender has a certain fantasy that he's trying to reenact with his victims, now he's doing certain actions that you go, why is he doing that? You know, the wrapping around the head can be a practical aspect in terms of, like, blindfolding, but now it's. Why would he be doing that? And. And is there something to it that's more than just that practical blindfold aspect?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Now, the police are saying that the killer apparently spent a significant amount of time at the crime scene before he left. So this is more weird cleanup. There are towels that soak up the blood. On the floor of the bathroom. It appears that he washed her naked body with a douchebag. And on the living room floor wall, about 6ft from the floor, he took a lipstick and he wrote a note. But why don't you bring it up and then I'll read it and you can give me a comment. So it's photo number one, but what it says is, for heaven's sake, catch me before I kill more. I cannot control myself. And it's written strangely, besides being in lipstick.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. And where is this inside the apartment?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is on the living room wall about six feet from the floor.

[Paul Holes]

So when somebody walks into this apartment, they would be able to be reading this right away.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. And I don't know if this is a couch or an extra bed or what's happening below it, but. Yeah, this is what they call the living room.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. So, you know, the photographer is taking a picture that looks like, you know, sort of the cor. A couch. And then there is a, like a nightstand, though. It's in the living room. It's a table or a cabinet that has, you know, a lamp on it and, you know, a book alarm, a clock. And then right above that lamp is this message and lipstick. There's messaging that is going on here that may be more than. Than what it just says. You know, in some ways, you know, he is pronouncing, I am going to kill more. You guys need to catch me. The. The handwriting itself is interesting now because it's in lipstick on a vertical surface. It's not like you can compare. You know, if you get handwriting exemplars from somebody writing on paper yet, you're not going to be able to do a real comparison. What stands out to me is some of the Formation of some of the letters, you know, the C's. He consistently has a little loop at the top of the C. I would imagine that if he's printing on paper, he's probably forming that letter that way. It' he has some letters in which it looks like he's using the cursive form. Even though he's printing, he's not linking those letters together as you would in cursive writing. But he's acknowledging that he has a compulsion. I cannot control myself. And that's a real thing. These predators do act out on compulsion. Now it's been six months between these two cases and there are, there is this phenomena of this refractory period after a predator commits a sexual assault or a homicide where now whatever internal compulsion that offender was feeling has been released and now there's a psychological relaxation and then it builds up over time. For some of these offenders that can be a very quick cycle. And other offenders here we've got a six month period in between the known cases that he's committing. And that's what I saw at Joseph d'. Angelo. Once he became a serial killer, he, he became biannual versus as a serial rapist. Sometimes he would attack multiple times a week.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Have you read or do you know of many of these cases where it is not like a Manson, where they're trying to throw the police off or something like that, that this is a legitimate. Not I. A cry for help is not the right word, but that's sort of what it is, is yes.

[Paul Holes]

So sometimes like I've got a case in which woman was stabbed to death, sexually assaulted and the offender wrote in her blood above her body, victim number one. But then he also tried to burn the apartment down. So he leaves a message saying I'm, I'm just starting, I'm a serial killer. Right. But then he tries to cover up his tracks and get rid of the evidence and that's contradiction. So this was a staged crime scene with the case that I'm doing. So here, what happened to Francis is entitled entirely consistent with him leaving this message. Right. So he is saying, I am going to continue to carry out these types of attacks until I am caught. I think that messaging is in some ways it's a cry for help, but it's also possibly messaging to the police. I'm the badass serial killer. Let's see if you can catch me.

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[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, so now the investigators are here, and they're looking through everything. They say they find no fingerprints, which we know is ridiculous. I mean, I'm hoping they mean fingerprints that don't match a known person, but I know that's what they say. I think they just say, literally, we can't pull anything.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, you know, this is where I just have an issue with that in general. Now, there, there are some surfaces within a residence where you're confident the offender touched. And then you. You try to, you know, find those. Those fingerprints, and you're unsuccessful. But just a blanket statement, and you don't know, in this type of attack, especially if the offender has spen long time in there and has ransacked the place, you don't know all the areas where he's touched. You literally process the entire inside of this apartment, and you will recover latency it or fingerprints. So that statement is a red flag to me.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

At first they say no fingerprints, and then they say, oh, wait, we found something. Several days after the initial investigation, they discover a bloody, smudged print on the door jamb between the bathroom and the dressing room. And they say the print is of an end joint and a middle joint of a right index finger. But it's hard to see it clearly. The only thing they can say about this guy is from what they can tell based on, I guess this print is he had oily hands, like he put cold cream on or a greasy hand lotion.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, I'm not sure how they're coming to that conclusion unless they're seeing a substance that's been left behind.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It could be that. It could be that. I mean, and the other thing is, you know, this print will become questionable later on. I just. I want to sound the alarm. About several days later, they go back in and, you know, in the Fatty Arbuckle case in American Sherlock, Oscar Heinrich, the forensic investigator, he wasn't allowed in the quote unquote crime scene for I think it was two weeks and the housekeeper had already been in there cleaning and he pulls a print, you know, and says, this is Fatty Arbuckles. So that kind of taught me a lesson where, I mean, this is what happens when you're releasing the crime scene too early. But then we don't even know what this thing is at this point. That's what they say it is, you know.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. And that's where part of proper crime scene processing is, you know, thorough photographic documentation. So if there is a question about this bloody print, you know, was it there at the time first responders went in and CSI is taking those photographs? You know, I would be going back to the photos and trying to see if I could see it to verify it's not a, you know, it wasn't deposited by somebody that is processing the crime scene or investigators walking through, because that does happen.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Now we're going to talk to witnesses and There is a second floor tenant who reports hearing gunfire between 3 in the morning and 4 in the morning. And the night clerk tells officers that there was a quote, nervous looking man in his late 30s that left the building around 4am and the discovery from the housekeeper was at 9am so they're saying this is six hours later. And so that's what they're left with. Now I know that, but night clerks, their job is to watch and notice people. Is that somebody who you would think would be a good witness? I mean, he's not gonna let a guy in his 30s, you know, who looked very disturbed is, is pretty vague though?

[Paul Holes]

Well, it depends on how engaged, you know, this night clerk is with the job. You know, chances are that night clerk is not paying much attention, you know, just sitting alone in the, you know, the lobby. So it all just depends on, you know, the details and, and whether or not I would have comfort with the information, you know, but the, the, the ear witness with the gunshots, you know, that's, that's important. You know, I, I think the, the way that that crime scene is configured where you have blood on the bed and then, you know, basically her body is drug to the bathroom and then she's put in, in this kneeling position with it appears that she likely is shot on the bed, left there for a period of time. She's bleeding. Now the body is being moved and he wraps her head at some point, whether on the bed or before he puts her in this kneeling position and then for good measure is using the knife to stab her in the neck. And it was in the back or the chest.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So she was shot in the head and the shoulder and then stabbed. Now he says post mortem with a 10 inch bread knife, first in the chest and then in the neck. What does that mean psychologically? Postmortem, that kind of thing. I know we've gone over it, but this is, this is also, you know, I think, interesting.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, well, you know, even though this, this guy likely is now responsible for at least his second homicide victim, doesn't mean he's an expert in recognizing whether the victims are dead. You know, he's using a, a firearm, you know, and he, he shoots twice, but he may not know if she's truly, you know, dead. And so he's coming back with the knife just to ensure that when he leaves that apartment, she is dead. You know, there may be more that the offender's thinking about in terms of the use of the knife, but I think that that's the likely reason why he's. He's doing it is he's just not comfortable enough that the gun has done the job.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, this is an odd point. There is immediately a suspect who had been in Chicago at which I just thought, I mean, millions of men entered Chicago in 1945, I'm sure, but this guy is different. His name is George Cotreboni and he is a butcher. And he is under investigation for beheading and dismembering 13 people in Cleveland, Ohio. And he, when confronted, confesses to the crime. He. There is no physical evidence linking him to Francis's murder, or Josephine's for that matter. He is eventually released. The crime in Cleveland that he is accused of is a series, as I just said, of dismembering and beheading, and that is now known as the Cleveland torso murders. And before you ask, this is a case we will be covering soon. Everybody's going to hear about this case soon, so. And he's cleared from that case, it sounds like, also. So he confesses. Now, what we're going to learn about the Chicago police is they are very, very, very aggressive about these confessions. And so they don't find physical evidence even though he confesses. And I don't know if George is one of those guys that we talk about who shows up wanting to insert himself in a crime investigation, which might have also happened with the Cleveland torso murders, too. Too.

[Paul Holes]

Right. Yeah. Well, you know, historically, Chicago area investigators are known for their almost their inappropriate interview techniques, which do lead to false confessions. And I've, I've done an Innocence Project case In which I. I will tell you, it was like, oh, nope, this. This was not the way to interview this guy who's, you know, currently in prison. You know, and there's what's called the read technique, an interview technique that California has banned because it is something that can lead to false confessions. So now, you know, you have to kind of modify how you approach certain vulnerable individuals in how you do your interview. You have to do it differently than what the read to technique is sort of the way the standard that was used up to a certain point.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Point. Now, I've heard of that, and I can't remember if I've heard it from you, so can you give us like a crib note version of that? And I'm sorry if I've already asked you this before.

[Paul Holes]

Well, it's, you know, the Reid technique is. Is where, you know, you do establish an interview, but you also are. Are moving into a very aggressive interrogation. The interview can be prolonged, excessively prolonged. And when you have somebody, let's say, that is somewhat mentally disabled or young, etc, their tendency is to cave under that pressure and the length of time and in essence, give the interviewer what he wants, thinking, well, if I just say, yes, I did it, I get to go home. Well, no, you've just kind of sunk yourself by. By making those statements.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, got it. Well, we're going to see if that happens in these cases. Cases. No more leads on this either. So Josephine and Francis, even though I know it's six months and that's not a ton of time, the cases sort of go cold. Chicago has a fairly high crime rate at this point, so they're still looking, but there are no leads. There is a lot of speculation. The press asks if this is a murderer who was a glutton, an insane musician. I don't know, a man or a woman, Woman with abnormal sex tendencies. A man or a woman with no sex tendencies to speak of. Or a burglar, a sneaky burglar, I guess. And, I mean, it's just the press is not helping and they continue to not help through this whole story.

[Paul Holes]

Sure. This is a. A sexually motivated predator, you know, that's all you can say at this point. And he's. He's demonstrating some unusual behaviors. And if there's more cases you're going to tell me about, I'm going to want to see does a true pattern emerge as he continues on with his series.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Now, captain Reynolds, who, you know, is working this case now, too, you know, he was with Josephine's case Originally he thinks it's a woman. And I was a little surprised until I read that he said no man would write in lipstick, for heaven's sake. So that's an odd reverse sexism, I guess. I don't know. Criminal profiling for dumb dummies.

[Paul Holes]

I would not come to that opinion.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, I know. Okay, so this case goes cold also. And less than a month later it heats up again. So it's January 7, 1946, and at 7:30 in the morning there's this guy named James and he goes by Jim and his last name is Dinna. And he goes to wake up his six year old daughter whose name is Suzanne and she needs to go to school. He goes into her bedroom. It is very tidy, the sheets are folded back and he had put her to bed. The bed pillow is smoothed out, but she is gone. She's been kidnapped from their two story brownstone, which is now back at North Kenmore Avenue. 5943. And remember, Josephine was on North Kenmore Avenue also. It's a long road, so I had to math this out a little bit. It would be about an hour walk. And I, and I know that this is happening at different times. I just wanted to give you some perspective because North Kenmore Avenue pops up a bunch here. He calls the police and the Chicago FBI office alerts Washington. So we know that these are connected. It sounds like, what do you think about that? And, and then in a second I can show you a photo of the kind of the layout of the exterior of this brownstone that we're talking about and what he had to do.

[Paul Holes]

Well, you have a child abduction, you know, and so of course that autumn that automatically brings in the FBI because they have jurisdiction with the presumption of interstate travel. You know, now the child is abducted and is crossing state lines. There is a boldness though I can think of other examples on cases I'm familiar with of an offender going into this location where there is an adult male asleep in another room and abducting this little girl. And so now the offender is taking some risk by going into the residence. And then also, you know, how is the girl going to respond? Is she, she, you know, will she scream out? He's got to kind of take that into consideration. And then also, how is he getting her out of the apartment? Is she, her bedroom's on the second floor, but it's a, it's a residence, right?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right. Yep, it's a brownstone.

[Paul Holes]

Okay. You know, so does, does he take her? You know, Just out the, you know, one of the ground floor doors? Or is this like a Lindbergh case where there's a ladder up to the window and he goes up and down ladder.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I got a little confused by the state of her room. So if I'm thinking a guy coming in, picking her up, maybe she is so asleep she thinks it's dad picking her up and taking her somewhere. And so she's not awake. But he said that the bed pillow is smoothed out, the sheets are folded back, it's tidy. So isn't that risky? And what is the thought process there? Don't you want to get out with this kid before she wakes up and realizes she's been taken by a stranger?

[Paul Holes]

The assumption is that she was alive when she was taken out of the house. You know, it's very possibly he could have smothered her or strangled her in her own bed. Now he's got a body that's much easier for him to manipulate. And he's trying to set the room up to make it look like nothing really has gone, nothing bad has happened in it. That's the sense that I'm getting that at first glance, whoever's looking at the room is thinking Suzanne has just kind of got tidied a room up and is getting ready to go to school.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I mean, this has always been framed as part of the same series. You know, it's a famous case which will become known as the Lipstick Killer case in Chicago. If these are definitely connected, is taking a child and a kidnapping without, of course, we don't know what happens to her yet. Is that some sort of wild, you know, left turn for him or just does that fit in somehow? Does it surprise you if this is the same person?

[Paul Holes]

No, it. It doesn't surprise me. Now, I think it's with. With what we know about Suzanne's case right now. I don't think you can conclusively say it's related to the previous two cases. However, let's say it is related. This is what. What we call a crossover offender. This is an offender that is going after a victim type that most people would assume, well, it's outside of his normal range of he's going after adult females. However, this is something that I've seen with other offenders. So, you know, Even though she's 6 years old, he, for whatever reason, has decided that this was an opportunity to be able to victimize a child. So he's willing. And again, I believe this is likely going to be a sexually motivated case. He's. He's willing to risk this to go in to get this victim. There's two different types of child molesters, and there's situational child molesters and then there's preferential child molesters. Preferential child molesters, they sexually victimize kids within a certain preferred age range that they want. And they generally do not engage in adult consensual, adult sexual relations. Situational child molesters or pedophiles, they will be engaged in, you'd say, adult sexual relationships. But when a situation arises to victimize a child of a certain age range that they want, then they will take that situation. That's what is happening here with this guy. And now the question is, why is he focused in on Suzanne? He's not seeing her as he's walking down the street. He's seen her before.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, how does he know this is her bedroom? How does he know where the parents sleep? There's a whole list of questions. Okay. The police, who are already pissing me off to begin with, arrive at 10. So this is two and a half hours later after Jim has said, wait, my kid's gone. I don't know if he searched for a long time. I can't imagine he waited very long to call the police. Police. But the Police come at 10 and they find a seven and a half foot ladder that is propped outside Suzanne's bedroom window, a la the Lindbergh case. But this is what they say, and I'm not sure this is right or not. So the woman who wrote the book on this, who I had praised so much, who is Dolores Kennedy, she says that she refers kind of to both footprints, footprints and shoe prints. And we know the difference. You know, footprints are feet. What the police had said was they believe that even though the ladder is outside because they didn't find any dirt in her bedroom, which would have been tracked by her. His shoes. Right. That they think that the killer actually went through the home's back door and then he escaped through the window carrying her down. And then I have a photo that's a real crappy, subpar photo of the aerial of this brownstone, but you can at least see where the ladder was and what everything looked like.

[Paul Holes]

Okay, so, yeah, this is a photo kind of looking down on the rear of this house. It's a multi story house with other structures surrounding it. And it appears that they've indicated that Suzanne's window, which they're calling the kidnap window, is on. On the right rear of the photo or the right side of the photo. And then around the corner from that window is where they're saying that the ladder was left there. So you had indicated the ladder was propped up against the window, but this is indicating that the ladder had been moved around to the side, which now I start questioning how do they know the ladder was even used?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right, right. And what is he doing? He's carrying her and the ladder to move it. And why move it? I don't understand what they're think there either.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. You know, I need to know more justification for that conclusion. You know, it may very well be, you know, he, the offender, you know, entered in through a, a main level door, kidnapped Suzanne or killed her and carried her out and closed the door. You know, this, this is where, you know, what was the status of the various windows and doors? You know, when law enforcement first arrives, that's one of the first things like if I'm right, going to a crime, crime scene, I'm documenting, you know, our doors locked, our windows locked, our drapes closed or open. You know, and this, you don't know if it's going to matter or not until, you know, further, further down in the case.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, you know, there's no note about locked windows or anything. So it sounds like these, these entrances and exits were open. There's no like broken glass or anything like that.

[Paul Holes]

And there, there is nothing on the window, silly Bill. That they noted to Suzanne's room, right?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

No.

[Paul Holes]

Okay. Now in this photo they are indicating that there appear to be some fresh auto tracks, you know, down a driveway, which it looks like it might be a U shaped driveway. I just can't see if it goes all the way through. Yeah, but that, you know, could be a location where the offender could have parked his car, where it's at least a little distance away from where he's going to be abducting Suzanne. So it makes sense. And, and he's going to have a vehicle. So I, I probably agree with them. If they are seeing something, you know, that, that indicates that those are reasonably fresh tracks, then that's probably the offender's vehicle there.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And you and I have talked about that. Sometimes snow is incredibly helpful. And it looks like this is snow. You know, I mean, it's, it's on different. Right. You see on the roof. Does this look like slow, it's January. Does it, this look like snow to you?

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, no, it could be. And, and, and that's, you know, like during the course of my career, I didn't have the luxury of having snow. Snow could be, you know, great. For impression evidence and for reconstructing movements of the offender at a crime scene or vehicles like what they're doing here. Now, I've gotten very familiar, you know, living here in Colorado to. To see what snow can provide from an evidence standpoint. Standpoint.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So they are casting these shoe prints found in the backyard snow dirt mix, and they think they can compare them later on. They find a ransom note, and it sounds like it's in Suzanne's room. They say it's oily, which is, I think, a reference back to that fingerprint, bloody fingerprint that they said was oily at Francis's house. Okay, so. So I'm going to make you read this because it's peppered with spelling and grammatical errors and ampersands that resemble treble clefts in music notation. But this is supposedly, you know, a ransom note. And if you have problems, I think that first one, it says gel, but I think it's get.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. So get $20,000 ready and wait for word. Do not notify FBI or police. Piece bills in 50s, bills in 5 to 50s is the way I'm seeing that.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So what do you think about that? Is it worth comparing that note to the lipstick note that was left? You said something about Cs. I don't know if there's a C in this, though.

[Paul Holes]

There isn't a C. You know, the. The R's in, you know, wait for word. The R in for and word. You know, he's doing a little extra loop. Loop informing that R, even though he. It doesn't look like he does that loop when he uses the word or for FBI or police. Yeah. You know, this is where, you know, like trying to compare the lipstick note on the wall to this writing on this note. I just don't think you're going to be able to affect any type of real link just from that.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah. And you know, the note, just when people see it. The note on the wall in lipstick is a mix of block letters and cursive. You know, you can see parts of it. And so this is, you know, it's all very confusing, but this was found in the house. This is clearly the kidnapper's note. And they say it was greasy. I think we end up going back to, you know, they were saying kind of lotion or something like that. That. And so on the back of the note, the killer says, burn this for her safety. And you're right, it does say, now I'm looking at it better. Bills and fives and tens, $20,000 bills and fives and tens. So $20,000 is 350,000 odd dollars today. Now we're going to talk about if there are any ear witnesses and there are members of this family, Jim's family, family that recall hearing dogs bark and men arguing in the street around 1:00am I mean, I'm sure throw a rock in most areas of Chicago and that's probably happening. Three other witnesses say that they saw a man and a woman carrying a large wrapped bundle to a car outside the Dunna home at around 2am and then neighbors also say that a few months ago two men tried to abduct Suzanne in front of the home by pulling her into the car and they don't get her in. This is not Jim who's saying this and apparently nobody reported it to the police. So I don't know if that's credible or not. I would have thought this would be the first thing that Jim would have said.

[Paul Holes]

So you do have a witness saying man and woman carrying a large wrapped bundle. And so there's a presumption that Suzanne is inside that that bundle. Is there anything about Jim or his family where people are aware that he has a level of wealth?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, he's in a, a nice area and in a big house. And so I think that that probably is a presumption. But. But no, I don't know. I mean, I don't. There's nothing about him being flashy or having fancy cars or anything like that. But, but this is definitely different than the other victims. I mean we've gone from apartments to, to, to a brown house that would have been fairly expensive.

[Paul Holes]

Well, you know, as of right now, I, I can't say I have enough information to say, oh yeah, this is linked to the two prior homicides. Okay. Nor do I have enough information to even think that this is truly an abduction ransom situation, you know, does. Are you going to get to if Sus Suzanne's body was found sound.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, funny you should ask that. Yes, but not right now, okay? Because. Because we have to take a break. Oh yeah, you've, you've talked the perfect amount and we have to take a break. So we're going to have to talk about that a little bit more next week and I don't want anybody to look this case up. Please. Including you, especially you, Paul, do not look this case up. Okay?

[Paul Holes]

No, I won't, I won't, I won't. Promise.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, well, I will see you next week where we can wrap this up, I hope.

[Paul Holes]

Okay. Thanks again, Kate.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This has been an exactly right Production

[Paul Holes]

for our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com buriedbones sources our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi, research by Alison Trouble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our mixing engineer is Ben Holliday.

[Paul Holes]

Our theme song is by Tom Breyfogel.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac, executive

[Paul Holes]

produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook@ buriedbonespod.

[Paul Holes]

Kate's most recent book, all that Is A Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to Decode the Criminal Mind, is available now.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And Paul's best selling memoir, My Life Solving America America's Cold Cases, is also available now.

[Paul Holes]

Listen to Barry bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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