The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton

Summary

Buried Bones Podcast Summary

Episode: The Murder of Nancy Evans Titterton

Hosts: Kate Winkler Dawson & Paul Holes
Date: May 20, 2026

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Overview

In this episode of Buried Bones, journalist Kate Winkler Dawson and forensic investigator Paul Holes delve into the 1936 murder of Nancy Evans Titterton, an affluent New York writer and wife of an NBC executive. Exploring this brutal case set in a luxury Manhattan apartment, Kate and Paul use modern forensic knowledge to examine how the investigation unfolded, the evolution of evidence gathering, and how gumshoe detective work cracked the mystery. The episode highlights the intersection of criminal investigation, media influence, and forensic science development in the early 20th century.

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Key Discussion Points

Setting the Scene: NYC in 1936

• The case takes place in an elite, affluent building in Midtown Manhattan’s East Side. Residents include influential figures, resulting in significant media attention.
• Kate reminisces about her experiences living in New York and the unique urban culture that frames this case (03:13–06:34).

The Crime Discovered

• On April 10, 1936, two delivery men, Theodore Kruger and John Fiorenza, entered the Titterton apartment to deliver a reupholstered love seat and discovered Nancy's body (07:39–08:59).
• Key observations:
  • Blinds drawn, lights off, apartment strangely silent.
  • Nancy was found half-naked, face-down and dead in a dry bathtub, a makeshift ligature fashioned from her own clothing around her neck. There were binding marks on her wrists (08:59–12:03).

Initial Investigation & Observations

• Detective Francis Keir led the investigation, making thorough and detailed documentations of the crime scene.
• Paul discusses the difference between ligature and binding marks and affirms this is unequivocally a homicide—not an accident or suicide (12:02–13:57).
• Nearby, a rumpled bed and scattered clothing, including torn garments and a garter belt, indicated a violent struggle and sexual assault attempt (16:44–18:19).

Forensics of the Era

• Early fingerprint attempts include the silver nitrate method and the use of ultraviolet light, both relatively advanced for the time but with significant limitations compared to modern forensics (19:17–21:56).
• Paul explains: UV light is better for detecting semen, not blood, and luminol is applied to reveal hidden blood traces (20:41–21:56).
• Various items, including the bed, linens, and clothing, were sent to the renowned NYPD police lab. Paul is impressed by the scale and rigor of evidence gathering for 1936 (22:45–22:56).

Autopsy & Cause of Death

• The medical examiner, Dr. Thomas Gonzalez, determined Nancy was strangled between 11am-11:30am. Signs of sexual assault were present, and contusions suggested she was moved postmortem (24:07–26:47).
• Attempts at obtaining fingerprints from her skin failed, as expected given forensic limitations (27:09–29:08).

Building the Case

• The investigation became the largest single homicide inquiry in NYC history up to that point (29:08–30:01).
• Nancy was 34, described as a shy, accomplished editor and burgeoning novelist, with no marital discord or enemies apparent.
• Interviews with friends, neighbors, and coworkers narrowed the timeline: last seen alive after a call at 11am, missed a dry-cleaning delivery at 11:30am (30:20–31:50).
• Theorized sequence: offender approached the apartment under innocent pretenses, subdued Nancy, assaulted, killed, then attempted to stage the body in the tub to misdirect investigators (32:14).

Security & Crime Context

• The crime shocked affluent New Yorkers, exposing vulnerabilities in building security and inspiring increased caution citywide (36:25–37:01).
• Reports of attempted break-ins nearby hinted at a pattern, but both hosts caution against assuming connections too quickly without evidence (37:01–40:07).

Forensics Deep Dive: The Cord Clue

• The police lab, led by Alexander Gettler (“father of forensic toxicology”), analyzed the unique cord used to bind Nancy (40:07–41:48).
• Gettler attempted innovative though ultimately flawed forensic tests (testing chloride levels in heart blood to infer drowning), which Paul Holes debunks as unreliable and unnecessary (42:48–44:43).

The Break: Tracing The Cord

• The cord was traced to a specific manufacturer, Hanover Cordage Company in Pennsylvania, who identified a recent order by upholstery shop owner Theodore Kruger (48:04–49:03).
• Investigators learned that John Fiorenza (Kruger’s assistant) had both access to the cord and a criminal record (52:02–53:34).
• Crucially, Fiorenza had visited the apartment alone the day before the murder and was late to work on the day of, providing a suspicious window for the crime (54:41–55:41).

Unraveling the Culprit

• Evidence and discrepancies in John’s statements, such as a false alibi and premature knowledge of Nancy’s being tied up, heightened police suspicions (56:26–58:21).
• Paul observes: “The fact that the cordage was brought there shows intent... It’s an interesting little twist.” (55:41)
• Police used psychological tactics, including leading John to feel like a key witness and seeding misleading stories in the press to facilitate a confession (60:21–61:46).

The Confession and Aftermath

• John eventually confessed, reconstructing the crime scene for police. He admitted to fixating on Nancy, returning with cord, gaining entry under false pretenses, assaulting and killing her, then ineptly attempting to stage a drowning in the bathtub (62:25–64:08).
• Nancy was dead before her body was placed in the tub—no water in her lungs confirmed by autopsy (65:00–65:20).
• John Fiorenza was tried, convicted, and executed by electric chair at Sing Sing (65:20–65:35).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On New York Life and Security

• "Even if you’re relaxed in New York, somebody around you is stressed out... There’s always felt this undercurrent of stress, but I thrived off that." — Kate (06:34)

Forensic Techniques in the 1930s

• "To be frank, I’m quite impressed by the effort he’s putting forward for a 1936 crime scene investigation. That’s pretty impressive." — Paul (22:45)
• "UV light is a reasonable tool to use, but it’s somewhat limited... Luminol is blood only." — Paul (20:41–21:56)

On the Science of Detecting Drowning

• "It’s so much simpler to determine is there water in her lungs than to do some fancy chloride between the right and left side of the heart." — Paul, debunking Gettler’s method (43:06)

The Break in the Case

• “They got lucky in this case, because now you have a company saying we’re the only ones that manufacture this specific cordage. That’s beautiful from a physical evidence standpoint.” — Paul (49:03–50:34)

Investigative Process Reflections

• "What you think about the crime when you first arrive... that’s what I call the story. But as the evidence is processed... you have to modify how you think that crime went down." — Paul (58:54)
• "It was really their hard work and tenaciousness that you need to have... Gumshoe investigative work solves most crimes." — Kate (67:47–68:44)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• New York setting, hosts' memories: 03:13–06:34
• Crime discovery & initial scene: 07:39–12:03
• Forensic discussion, early methods: 18:19–21:56
• Autopsy findings & implications: 24:07–29:08
• Victimology & investigation scale: 29:08–32:14
• Cord and forensics lab work: 40:07–49:03
• Suspect interviews & how suspicion shifted: 54:41–58:21
• Confession & trial resolution: 62:25–65:35
• Reflection on policing & case closure: 67:47–69:28

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Conclusion

The murder of Nancy Titterton is a classic example of early 20th-century forensic limitations but also the critical role of diligent detective work and strategic evidence gathering. Kate and Paul highlight how contemporary investigative standards evolved from such cases and reinforce that, even today, “it’s the gumshoe work that solves most crimes.” The case ended with justice served, thanks to both the persistence of police work and an unusually progressive forensic approach for its day—an exploration that underscores why these old cases still resonate and teach us so much.

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For visuals and more details, follow @buriedbonespod on Instagram.

Transcript

[A]

This is exactly right.

[B]

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[B]

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[D]

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who spent the last 25 years writing about true crime and

[C]

I'm Paul Holz, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them.

[D]

Each week I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes and

[C]

I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

[D]

Together using our individual expertise, we're Examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens.

[C]

Some are solved and some are cold. Very cold.

[D]

This is buried bones.

[C]

Foreign. Hey, Kate. How are you?

[D]

I'm doing well. How about you?

[C]

I'm doing very good.

[D]

We are in New York City for this episode. And I lived in New York. I think we might have talked about this. I lived in New York for about 10 years. Loved, loved, loved New York City. For me, it was a young person's city. Though I don't think I could live in New York City now. It felt very hectic when I was there. You never lived in a. In a really, like, bustling city, is that right? I mean, I know you moved from

[C]

place to place, but not as an adult. I've always been in the suburbs, you know, so I. I have been to New York City, but the first time I went was right when I retired, when I was, you know, in Manhattan. And I actually was shockingly impressed how clean and amazing architecture, you know, relative to the big city that most of my life I've been around is San Francisco. And I know it's, you know, it's a great city, but, man, it. It's kind of tough to walk around in some of the areas in. In San Francisco.

[D]

Yeah. And I lived in both places. I lived in New York and San Francisco and LA for a little bit, and. And London. So Austin's the smallest city I've ever lived in. Yeah. And in Boston. Lived in Boston, too.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah. New York is just something special. Like, I remember before Uber, when I was hanging out with my friends and we all lived in the east vi, and there were so many delivery options. I mean, coming from Austin, we basically had pizza. That was our delivery option when I was growing up. There was pizza, and that's it. But then I get to New York and, you know, I was 22 or so, so a long time ago, and you could have restaurants literally anywhere around. You would come and deliver for a small amount of money back then, for me at least, and my friends, we would stay out, really. We would stay up really late, and they would deliver, and we would literally have, like, five different restaurants show up. Yeah. And I had never experienced that before. It feels a little bit like kind of like Uber delivery now, but, man, that's just like. And there was a Swiss restaurant right across the street from us that I loved. Just loved, loved, loved. I took dates there, they took me there, and my friends finally said, you probably should spread out and go to a different restaurant. People showing up at this Swiss restaurant with Fondue, which I will say sometimes is not the best date option. But, but, but I love New York. And so this is. While this is not a lovely story, it did remind me, just sort of talking about the different streets and stuff. It, it reminded me of the time that I've spent in New York, which I just adored.

[C]

Yeah, no, I've, you know, I've, I've been out to Manhattan multiple times just for the various projects I've been involved with, and I, I, I thoroughly enjoy it now. It's. There's a lot of hustle and bustle. I've never used the subway. I need to get familiar with how to use that. I made the mistake one time, Uber, to go from basically 30 rock out to where actually our agents, you know, are based out of in New York, you know, which is. It was only, you know, like five blocks away, and we were sitting in traffic, and I was watching the pedestrians pass us by, and I was like, I would have been better just walking. Right. He was like, the Uber driver's like, yeah, yeah.

[D]

I mean, I would. What? I used to walk almost home from CBS when I worked there, and it was, it's on West 57th, I think, between 10th and 11th, but I can't remember avenues. And I was like, on 3rd Avenue, but I was also on, I think 7th street and 3rd Avenue. I can't remember. And so it was a long walk. But I just, I got so used to doing that, just walking. Same thing with London, you know, you just get used to walking a lot. A lot. And so I'm, I be. I'm. I always like when my kids go to big cities because it's just such a culture shock for them because we're in the suburbs, in Austin. Sure, but. But man. Yeah, I just have a lot of love for New York. It's a hard, it was a hard city to live in. But I always said, you know, even if you're relaxed in New York, somebody around you is stressed out, either your cab driver or the people you're walking next to. Like, so there is, like, to me, there's always felt this sort of like an undercurrent of stress, but I thrived off that, so I didn't mind it.

[C]

Yeah, no, you know, I, I'm looking forward to the next time I can get out there. I don't know when that's going to be, but there's a chance road trip.

[D]

I'll call Karen in Georgia right now. Back to New York. Okay, well, we are going back to 1936. Fantastic time. This is a very, very wealthy area in New York, in midtown Manhattan on the east side. And this is an elite luxury apartment building. And that is where I am taking you today. So let's set the scene. So we need to do a trigger warning. This is a case that involves sexual assault. And we are, again, like I said, in a wealthy building. And the residents include industrialists and radio executives and, you know, aristocrats that. I have a. I think I have a countess in here who's a witness. So we. This is a very, very wealthy building. And, you know, the area was really nice at the time. Not a lot of crime. At least not. Not the level of crime that we're going to be talking about. So you ready? This is a big one. You're going to have to take a lot of notes. Okay, so we are in 1936. It is April, presumably beautiful. And about 4:15pm There are two delivery guys who enter the lobby vestibule of this building. So one's named Theodore Kruger, and they'll be crucial. That's why I'm naming them. One is Theodore Kruger, and the other one is a guy named John Fiorenza. They've come to deliver a newly reupholstered love seat to the. This couple, the Tittertons, and they are Nancy and Lewis. And they are very affluent, very powerful, and they have a lot of people that they're friends with in the building. So these two delivery guys lug this sofa up to the fourth floor, which I've done before. It's awful. And they get to the apartment and the door is ajar. The delivery guys assume that it was left open for them. And inside the apartment they go in, they bring in the love seat. They start noticing some weird things. So the blinds are drawn, all the lights are off, and they put the love seat in the living room like they're supposed to. And they start kind of calling out for. For one of them, for Lewis or for Nancy. They see a light on in the bathroom and they hear the faint sound of dripping water. And so they call out again for Mrs. Titterton or Mr. Titterton. No answer. So Theodore pushes the door open and discovers Nancy Titterton dead. She is half naked, laying face down in an empty bathtub. No water in the bathtub. Theodore calls out to the other delivery guy, John, and he says, call the police. So the observations are done from what Theodore said he found there. You know, next up, we have a detective. So, you know, you've got this woman who is expected at this apartment to take in this love seat. And she's dead. And these two delivery guys discover her. So now we have an investigator, and then I'm going to give you a chance to react to some stuff. We have an investigator, his name is Francis Cure. And he shows up about 15 minutes later. This happens pretty quickly. They came at 4:15. He shows up 15 minutes later, and he makes these observations. So Nancy Titterton is on her left side, dead in the tub. There's water dripping from the shower head above her. Her face is pressed onto the open drain. One of her legs is draped over the tub's edge. The slip that she's wearing is torn. She has stockings that are rolled down to her ankles. And this was an interesting description. They described it as almost like a lariat that somebody, the killer used from a pink pajama top and a red dressing jacket. And together those two things tied together make this sort of lariat thing. It's tied around her neck. It's knotted around her neck. And the detective notices that there are ligature marks on her wrists. And that's his initial observations until we get to the autopsy.

[C]

Yeah. Initially, when you're describing Nancy's position in the tub, you know, I was starting to go down the path. Are, you know, are we sure that we're dealing with homicide, or do we have an accident?

[D]

Right.

[C]

And then you. You describe this lariat, basically a ligature made out of. Sounds like both items are her clothing. Then it's. Now, do you have. Did she attempt to hang herself? Right, but the ligature marks on her wrists. And this is where I've done this little bit of a correction before, is ligature is applied around appendage or the neck to cut off blood flow versus bindings are used to bind wrists together, ankles together. So technically, these are binding marks around her wrists. And it sounds like the binding has been removed. Yes, this is. Right now, this is what tells me we are dealing with a homicide. Nancy didn't do that to herself. And then, of course, evaluating the ligature around her neck, how is it applied, et cetera, is also going to be a factor. It appears that in all likelihood, you know, the offender interacted with Nancy somewhere else in this apartment and moved her into the bathtub. And then the question is, why do that? Was this to clean her off? Is this, you know, to get rid of evidence? 1936? You know, obviously there's. That would be a pretty sophisticated offender to be doing something like that, because there were not a lot of evidence that could be used that would be left behind on Nancy's body by the offender. Offender to identify him. So there's, the offender is doing something by moving Nancy from wherever she was attacked and whatever was done to her at a different location, maybe presumably in the bedroom, and then takes the time to move her. So there's, you know, that's, that's something I'm going to be paying attention to.

[D]

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[D]

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[B]

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[A]

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[D]

So Detective Kir leaves her there, alerts the medical examiner, and then he starts looking around and, you know, now his. His people are coming in, too. And in the adjoining bedroom to the bathroom, there are two twin beds. And so you had already alluded to this. One of the bedspreads is rumpled and smeared with three lumps of paint or mud. I thought feces at first, but they say, no, it's paint or mud. And then they find this. They find a torn gray skirt, a garter belt, and a fountain pen are all on the floor. And the hooks and eyes from the undergarments are also on the floor. So it sounds like a violent, at least, attempt at sexual assault. Is that what it sounds like to you?

[C]

Yeah. You know, it appears that Nancy was fully dressed, possibly was in the middle of writing something with the fountain pen, and then she's attacked. I'm presuming that this is probably a sexually motivated crime. Why can't they tell if it's paint or mud? That should be pretty obvious.

[D]

Yeah, I don't know why. I don't know why they can't tell. Okay, now, we haven't had any of our experts come in yet. So as of right now, this is what Detective Kir is saying, is that it looks like paint or mud. There's no sign of a break in. So, of course Kir says, okay, I wonder if she knew the person. We know a gun is just as good as kicking in a door to get somebody to open up the door.

[C]

Or just a knock on the door and you push the door open.

[D]

Yeah, I mean, that. That. I know that, like, throughout history, I have heard that if there's no sign of a break in, that means they know the person. No, not really.

[C]

No. No.

[D]

So there are valuables in the apartment that seem to be untouched, there has been $5 stolen from Nancy's purse, which is about 120 bucks. Again, I always kind of go back to how do they know that exact. I mean, this is a woman who goes out and spends money, presum, you know, had a job. And so I don't understand still how they can say it. I just don't like, I would not know. You know, I see my mom almost every day. I would not know how much money is in her purse. I don't, I don't know. I mean, does your wife know how much money is in your wallet? I just don't get it. I don't know. Okay. And we don't know why. And that's okay, Paul.

[C]

No comment.

[D]

No comment.

[C]

You're going to get me in trouble.

[D]

Moving on. Okay, so let's talk about forensics. So various items are subjected to. Get ready for this because I don't know what it is. The silver nitrate method of developing fingerprints. Yep. And one more fancy thing, and then you can react to both her clothing and her bedspread are examined with an ultraviolet light. And I know that was what my guy from American Sherlock used, also ultraviolet light to look for blood. But that's no longer the most effective thing. I know.

[C]

Yeah, so silver nitrate, you know, they're for, for fingerprints. You have both aqueous as well as lipid based secretions that when you touch an object, both types, you know, water based and fat based secretions are, are left behind. And so certain, you know, black powder will just adhere to these, you know, these secretions versus if you have paper, it's porous. And so the, the paper actually absorbs the fingerprint secretions into the paper itself. So now you have to use a, a liquid chemical in order to be able to visualize these latent prints. And so you can use something like ninhydrin that goes after the protein.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

A specific amino acid, silver nitrate. Light is something that goes after the lipid based or the fat based secretion within the matrix of the paper itself. Now, when you start talking about the use of a UV light, it's, it actually is not a good light source for blood. Blood actually absorbs ultraviolet light and makes blood darker. And if blood is on a dark surface, like O.J. simpson's black socks, you will not see the blood. But semen fluoresces under UV light. And today we have tunable alternate light sources so we can change the wavelengths and the, the types of goggles, the color of the goggles. What are called barrier filters in order to be able to see different levels of fluorescent on different types of surfaces. So UV light is a. Is a reasonable tool to use, but it's. It's somewhat limited.

[D]

And luminol is blood only, is that right?

[C]

Yes, we only use luminol to phosphorescence in the presence of the heme group within blood itself. So. And we only resort to luminol when we have basically blood stains that we cannot visually see.

[D]

Okay, got it. So Detective Kier tries to find fingerprints from the bed frame, but they're too smudged to be useful. And I mean, you know, she's married, so there's. Everybody's fingerprints are going to be around here. She probably had a. I'm sure she had a housekeeper, so I don't know. But he tries. He had the twin bed that was messed up, dismantled, and he sends this along with, you know, a lot of other stuff that he finds to the police research laboratory in New York. He sends the bed, the bedspread, a pair of pajamas, a pillowcase, a blue smock, lavender bathrobe, and a bra. And that actually kind of becomes a big deal. We're going to talk about this lab. It's a very famous lab, the police lab.

[C]

Well, to be frank, I'm quite impressed by the effort that he's putting, you know, Forward for a 1936 crime scene investigation. You know, that, that, that's pretty impressive.

[D]

The police lab in New York has historical significance. And, you know, I'll talk about that in a little bit because we have who I would describe as the Bernard Spilsbury of toxicology works at this police lab, Alexander Getler. You've probably heard of his name, I think, but maybe not.

[C]

No, I haven't.

[D]

He is very, very well known. But I'll tell you in a little bit. Okay, now we've got the medical examiner. His name is Thomas Gonzalez. He comes and he makes a few preliminary observations. So he says that her body is moist. And what's interesting is that her body is moist, but her feet are dry. Now, one leg is over the side of the bathtub, but he's saying both feet are dry. Her body temperature and state of rigor indicates that she had been strangled between 11 and 11:30 that day. So that is five hours later. It sounds like the guys come at 4:15 and they come at, you know, 4:30. So five hours later, Karen. So the body is moist, but her feet are dry. Is there a clue in there somewhere? There must be.

[C]

Well, she wasn't upright standing in that tub when the water had been turned on. This is just all it does, you know, at this point, indicate to me that the offender moved her from the bedroom to the bathtub. She's already dead, in all likelihood. And he's placing her in the bathtub, turning the water on, and the feet just aren't getting wet.

[D]

Okay, well, it looks like he plans to do the autopsy at Bellevue Mortuary. So he says to his guys, go ahead and take her body, and I will do the autopsy tomorrow morning. When they pick her body up, they find a cleanly cut cord underneath her body in the bathtub. It's 13 inches long and a quarter inch thick, and it matches the binding marks. Not ligature. It matches the binding markings on her wrist. So she's been laying on top of these bindings.

[C]

It sounds like, no, you know, it's cleanly cut. Now, when they say it's cleanly cut, is this from the offender cutting it off her wrists, or did the offender cut it from an object within her apartment, like a lamp cord, or did he bring it with her? You know, so I. That's where if the offender is cutting it off her wrist and then also throwing it into the bathtub, it's like, why is he doing that? He's turning the water on. I think he's doing this all for evidence issues, you know, and thinking, oh, that maybe they can get fingerprints off of her skin. So that's why he's running water over her. But it'll be interesting to see how this develops.

[D]

Yeah, there's a lot of clues, a lot of stuff going on here. So keep up. Keep up, Paul.

[C]

Okay, I'll try.

[D]

I know. So now we are at Bellevue Mortuary, and Dr. Gonzalez is conducting the autopsy. The next day, he finds that she has been sexually assaulted and that she has been strangled. This is what he says happened. Her larynx has hemorrhaged. There were also three slight internal hemorrhages of the scalp. Contusions above and below her left eye appear to have been caused by the pressure of her head on the tub's open drain. There is no evidence of water in her lungs. Although he attempts to recover fingerprints from her body, he can't lift anything that's useful. Everything has been destroyed by the water. And then you have to tell me if that's even a thing, recovering it off of a wet body or anybody. And then he takes fingernail scrapings and sends them along with the clothes found on her body in the. The tub. They. He sends those to the Lab, too?

[C]

Well, no, it actually sounds very straightforward. So you have these, these contusions to her head that is the offender, you know, beating her on the head to get. Get compliance and control, you know, the bathtub drain injuries, if you will. I mean, that's just post, post mortem stuff that that's happening. Okay, so he, he's ruling those out as being anything that the offender did to the victim. You know, I'm impressed that he's collecting fingernail scraping. So they really couldn't do anything outside of identifying is there, you know, human tissue or blood present under there, or looking for trace evidence. You could have fibers from the offender underneath her fingernails, the hemorrhaging around the larynx. This is entirely consistent with, with strangulation. You know, there could be a question as to whether was there any manual strangulation that occurred prior to this ligature being applied around her neck. The, the use of these two articles of clothing that was used to actually make the ligature is going to be a very broad type of surface versus this very narrow binding used on her wrists. And so, you know, this would be almost a kind of like a soft ligature strangulation. And it be pretty obvious to modern pathologists if manual strangulation had occurred prior to this, this very broad ligature being applied. Body temp and rigor, you know, as I've talked about before, that there's so many variables. You can't really narrow the window of time with too much confidence, you know, but, you know, if she's still fairly warm after five hours, and depending on the apartment temperature and everything else, it at least does provide some information, as in terms of recovering fingerprints off of human skin, that has never been able to be reliably done. I've even been involved in experiments on dead bodies, trying to place fingerprints in known locations and to try to develop them. It is a tough, tough thing to do. Every now and then you get lucky because there's something unusual about the print that was left behind that allows it to be visualized. But the fact that they were even attempting it back in 1936 is pretty impressive these days.

[D]

We would say when we find out some more that their attempts are off the mark. But the fact that they're attempting all of this stuff is pretty amazing. Okay. Keir has 50, 50 detectives interviewing residents of the building. You have to know because of the victim and who the victim is. She is married to a NBC executive, and she herself has worked for a publisher, and she developed a mystery imprint for readers. And she had just gotten a deal on her first short story. I think she wanted to be a novelist. And so it's mostly the money. So this is a very affluent couple in a very affluent building in a really, really nice area. And this at the time was the largest single homicide investigation in New York City history.

[C]

Okay. Now may I ask you, how old is Nancy?

[D]

She's 34.

[C]

Okay. All right. Because I, I had a vision. I envisioned, I was dealing with an elderly lady. So. So now you have a. Yeah. You have a 34 year old woman that potentially could. Somebody is, you know, see her and, and is attracted to her and, and decides she's going to be a victim.

[D]

Right. And her husband is at work during this whole time. So the husband has never really even considered a suspect. So I'll just take that off, you know, because at first thing I thought it was the husband. But they conclude pretty quickly that he's a busy guy and he was accounted for. Okay, so we get to, I mentioned 50 detectives on this case. Huge story, media latches on, no surprise. So now we have to look at the timeline and then I'll tell you more about Nancy and her husband. So they start talking to her friends. So the morning of her murder, Nancy had spoken to her friend whose name was Georgia Mansbridge. She had talked to her between 10:30 and 11 that morning and they were going to have a dinner date. So they were planning it and Georgia said she was in a great mood, you know, nothing was out of the ordinary. So then There was a 17 year old delivery boy and he says that he tried to deliver some dry cleaning to her apartment at 11:30. So Georgia says she was talking to her on the phone from 10:30 and 11, and then this 17 year old shows up, knocks on the door, no one answers. And they are putting her. I know we talked about sort of how, how wide ranging rigor and liver temperature is, but they're putting her death at somewhere between maybe like 11 and 12 for something like that, but we don't know. So she's not answering. She also could have been doing something else and not heard the door. Who knows? So what Detective Keir thinks happened is that Nancy knew the killer. You know, we'll see. And let this person into her apartment. The killer attacks Nancy, binds her hands and assaults her and then strangles her and then puts her body in the tub. I mean, I think you and I, with the exception of it, has to be somebody she knows would probably agree with that. Right?

[C]

Yeah. In terms of what happened to Nancy, that seems like the logical flow.

[D]

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[D]

Okay, well, let's think about her life right now and just see, you know, who she's close to. I said she's 34. She's described as shy and soft spoken. She's a novelist, she is attractive and she is originally from Dayton, Ohio. She moved to New York in 1925 and she worked for this literary agency that I told you about. Very smart and accomplished in her own right. It was at this agency that she met her husband who is 37. So there's a three year difference. He's British, he was an executive at NBC and they got married in 1929, so seven years earlier. And by all accounts they had a great marriage loving couple. And when this happens, she is buried at the University of Funeral Chapel. There are a few hundred people attend the service. 700 people crowd outside. I'm not sure it's because Nancy was beloved or anything. It's you know, the, the sheer surprise of a couple like this and this horrible thing happening to her. And also if you think about security and these buildings and sort of the going into a building and, and doing this, I think there is that sort of like we are not safe in our own beds fear that people were having like this is an untouchable couple. I mean that's how it would have felt like an untouchable couple. If this could happen to them, it's definitely, you know, certain. It could be happen. It could happen to me too.

[C]

Well, and they're living on the fourth floor, so the offender has to get up to the fourth floor and out, you know, and, and not be witnessed. And then I, you know, of course there's you know, a door to the apartment. From a victimology standpoint, did they routinely lock that? Then there's the idea of some of places have security that you have to get through just to get into the lobby of the downstairs apartment complex. You know, so that, that would be all part of the questions I would have is what did the offender have to get through to get up to Nancy herself?

[D]

I think one of the things that the media brought up because there are some other incidents that preceded this in this neighborhood. The media brought up security that happens at these buildings. Some had doormen, some didn't. It doesn't sound like Nancy's did But the doors are locked and secured, or if there are doormen, they're there briefly. They're not like at a security desk like you might find today. And so this case actually made New Yorkers reexamine their own security. And especially because, you know, these were, like I said, kind of untouchable people. Neighbors in this neighborhood say a couple of things happened that were disturbing before Nancy's murder. One was there was an attempted break in nearby where actually two men were able to almost push their way into someone's apartment. But their domestic servant managed to fight these guys out, push them out. And then there is a countess who lives around the corner from Nancy who says that she saw a man try to push his way into a building and then. And actually before had kind of tried to con his way in there. Oh, I stay there, or my grandmother stayed there or something like that and ended up not being able to get in the building. But this was unusual, apparently. So we had a couple of these which, which could be, you know, connected to Nancy. But now that we've done this with a lot of stories where we've heard that there are a lot of break ins or something is happening, almost like there are thieves, criminals there testing things, and then it turns out to not be that. So, you know, I sometimes I just take these with a grain of salt. But it's good to know, you know, right. That they're people roaming around and it's unusual for just at least the past few weeks. What do you think?

[C]

Well, that, that's definitely something to pay attention to for the mere fact that it's unusual. From my perspective, you know, this is a wealthy area. Just by the, the, the fact that these people have valuables, significant valuables inside the residence is going to draw a criminal element out to this location. This is New York City. So you're going to be seeing a fair amount of crime even in these wealthy areas, at least attempting to commit crimes like these burglaries. But I do pay attention to the fact that, yeah, all of a sudden there seems to be a modest spike in terms of men trying to get into these relatively secure dwellings. Could they be, you know, Nancy's attacker? Possibly. You have to consider that the fact that Nancy is attacked on the fourth floor in her building, that suggests to me that maybe she was somewhat targeted. And right now the assumption is this is somebody who, you know, came from outside the building. But we also have other residents that live inside the building that see Nancy all the time. Could you have an internal occupant to that building being Nancy's killer, that has to be considered as well.

[D]

Yep. And I think Detective Keira is doing all of that, which is good. I mean, most impressively to me is that, like you said, he's sending out all of this evidence. So the. The cord arrives at the New York Police Department's police laboratory in Brooklyn. This lab becomes sort of the blueprint for what labs should be for all major cities. This was groundbreaking, this lab. There's a guy there named Alexander Gettler. He eventually becomes known as the father of forensic toxicology. He's a biochemist.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

They send the cord to Gettler, and he has an assistant, Henry Schwartz, and they're both at the office of the Chief medical Examiner, and they start analyzing the evidence that's been collected from Nancy's crime scene. So these guys know what they're doing. I told you. I mean, they. Gettler is. Is really well known. So he does something, and I need to. I need to. To tell you. You're going to have to pick. This is a door number one or door number two. So. Okay, you ready? This is the. This was the bad news about Gettler. So this is the best intentions that I get with Oscar Heinrich, where he seems to do something really impressive, but it is not the correct thing to do, because he doesn't know any better. Because, you know, they haven't explored this yet. Gettler's doing this. Do you want to hear the test that he runs, which is pretty intense, or do you want to hear why this wouldn't work? Or do you want to play a very fun game of you trying to guess why this wouldn't work? And we'll see what. What happens?

[C]

I want to. Okay, well, I want to hear what test he's trying to do. And I'll say, what if I agree with it or not?

[D]

Okay, well, let me. Let me get through it. Okay, so this is what he does. He has her body. He doesn't find any alcohol or other chemicals like ether or chloroform or drugs or anything else in her system. Now, that he would have known in toxicology in 1936 was pretty decent, so he would have been able to figure that out. But this is what he does. Okay? And I've never heard of this before. He compares the plasma chloride levels from the left and the right side of her heart. He thinks that she has inhaled water, but it's not in her lungs, according to Dr. Gonzalez. So he thinks that she was alive when she was placed in the tub. So this is Technique. Let me explain why he thinks this. This technique is based on the idea that if a person inhales fresh water, not salt water, it will cross the elevalor. Is that how you say that? Bed to the left alveoli. Alveoli?

[C]

Oh, no. Within the heart.

[D]

Yeah. It says it will cross the alveolar bed to the left heart, causing hemodilution there and lower chloride levels in comparison to the right heart blood. Do you mean to read that again?

[C]

It's so much simpler to determine is there water in her lungs than to sit here and do some fancy chloride between the right and the left side of the heart. I've been at autopsies. I see how pathologists collect samples. You know, this is not going to be something that I believe is going. Is informative or even legit. You know, considering the type of sample that he's dealing with. I put more weight on what the pathologist is observing. She did not drown. Yep. That's the bottom line. So why do this test? That seems like a waste of time.

[D]

I think he doesn't believe it, I guess. Or he has these chemicals and he's. He wants to prove something. I don't know. You know, these guys just like Heinrich. You know, I loved. I loved Oscar Heinrich. He was a centerpiece of my book. But, you know, he was wrong. This was the. You know, people die when they started using anesthesia. So this is where we are with this. So he says, let me just finish out this wild test of his. He says that there are 35 milligrams fewer salt in the left side than on the right side of the heart. And of course, you know, then the note is, well, chloride's not stable after death. So this is not a definitive thing, but this is something that other people have used in the past. That's the bad news for Getler. Then we have a lot of good news, unless you want to disparage his finding anymore for Geddler.

[C]

You know, I think, you know, what I said before is, is that this, this is completely unnecessary. And I. I just debunk it, you know, straight up. I'm going pathologist findings.

[D]

Okay, so we know that. That she was strangled and then it sounds like dumped into the bathtub. So he finds. Gettler finds several blonde hairs that appear to be Nancy's on her shirt, in her bathrobe. But then he examines the bedspread and he finds something really different. There is a stiff white hair measuring just over a half inch long. He looks in the microscope and he says, it's a horsehair. Okay, so when he compares the horsehair found on Nancy's bedspread to the padding in the newly upholstered loveseat, it's a match. So neither of these delivery guys, John or Theodore, had gone into the bedroom, they say. So what he assumes is that somehow the horsehair became attached to one of the investigating officer's clothes and that the officer had then inadvertently transferred it from the living room where the sofa was, to the bedroom. So this horsehair. So does that sound right? I mean, we talk about transfer all the time. And you know, they're not wearing the whole, you know, hazmat suits that they should have been wearing.

[C]

Well, even if you're wearing, you know, a Tyvek protective clothing, you still have the potential that you could track hair from within Nancy's residence from one location to another location. You know, this is just, you know, trace evidence is, is prone to these, you know, we call secondary tertiary type transfers. So, you know, now that Gettler is saying, well, the, the white hair found from the bedroom is matching the hair from, you know, the what the deliveryman, the piece of furniture that the delivery man, that tells me, okay, this is all likely just cross contamination within the crime scene itself, which is not unexpected. And the reality is it's like, oh, it'd be, it'd be significant. Did the offender bring this, this horse hair into the bedroom? But by the time that, that hair is collected in the crime scene processing, not only do you have the delivery men, but you. And, and they didn't go into the bedroom. So. Okay, they didn't, they're not the ones with the cross contamination. But now you have multiple, you know, investigators, csis that are inside this house. And so at this point with what I'm hearing, I'm saying that horsehair means nothing to the case at all.

[D]

Okay, let's talk about the cord because I think Gettler thinks that might be the key to this case is that cord that they found under her body. That, that, that belongs, you know, that is part of the bindings, it sounds like.

[C]

And, and hopefully you're going to tell me about the paint or mud that was found on the bed, right?

[D]

I think so. So Gettler looks at the cord and he says it is saturated with water, you know, because it was under her and she was wet. And he said that the cord swelled to 60 size twine. He says it is a five ply cord with a diameter of 18 of an inch and it's made of low grade Italian hemp jute and something called istal, which is a fiber made from a unique agave plant.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[D]

So this is unusual. And what they believe is that this kind of cord would have come from, you know, a specific. These, you know, these cords all come from specific companies. And they start looking around and calling companies all over the place. They get to Pennsylvania, and I think this is good detective work personally. And they call Hanover Cordage Company, which is in York, Pennsylvania, and they request a list of recently compiled orders because they say this is a cord. And they say the cordage company says this cord is unique to us. So they have them look through the customers, and there are people who have ordered these cords, and then they read through the names, and they see a very familiar name. Theodore Kruger, who owns the upholstery shop on Third Avenue in Manhattan. And do you remember Theodore's name, why he's important?

[C]

Well, he was one of the delivery guys.

[D]

You got it?

[C]

Right, Right.

[D]

Yep. A roll of that twine was sent to his shop one day before the murder. And remember the horse hair?

[C]

Okay, well, right now, the horse hair is out of the picture as far as I'm concerned. Just because the argument of cross contamination.

[D]

True.

[C]

Unless Krueger's lying and he actually did go into the bedroom. Right. I've done in terms of, you know, tracking down, you know, suppliers of whatever type of evidence is present at a crime scene. I've done this many times over the course of my career. And oftentimes it ends up being you can't really drill down and narrow the suspect pool. But every now and then, you get lucky. And they got lucky in this case, because now you have a company saying we're the only ones that manufacture this specific cordage. That's beautiful. From a physical evidence standpoint. And now. Yeah. Give me your customers. The fact that that cordage was sent to a person who admittedly had been inside Nancy's apartment the day of her murder is huge. So this is where, you know, like, today everybody's talking DNA. You. You still have to go after the other types of physical evidence and do that gumshoe investigative work, because every now and then, it's going to pay off huge. And it looks like it's paying off huge right here.

[D]

Yeah. Remember what was the case where they followed these, like, gamblers all the way to. Who turned out to be murderers all the way to, like, a horse track, and they planted money and marked the bills and then actually had, like, a cop as a cashier at this racetrack? You know, I am Always impressed with. It's just like I always say, the analogy of the. Of the, you know, the trout line with the magnets trying to find that damn gun that somebody threw off the bridge in the 1800s. That's what you want. So that was my defense of Gettler also, which is that, you know, he's trying his best. Everybody's trying their best.

[C]

Yeah. I'm just going to comment right now. The fact that you see, oh, Kruger has access to this cordage. I mean, this is where. Now there's a search warrant on where Kruger's working. Kruger is then interviewed, but also simultaneously, you are looking for that source of cordage. Because now can you do forensic testing in order to at least verify. Yes, this is the same type of cordage. But is there aspects to this cordage? Let's say, does it record certain types of tool marks? Is there something pliable that would record tool marks? Let's say a scissor, you know, that possibly under a microscopic examination could link the cordage from Nancy's scene to this spool of cordage from Kruger's company?

[D]

Yeah, absolutely. So they pull apart these two guys. So you've got John Fiorenza, and then you've got Theodore Kruger. And John has been working there as an assistant at the shop for a while. And I think mostly it's because he has a criminal record. Now his criminal record is theft. And he's, you know, he's 24. It started when he was 12, and he was stealing stuff, and then he ends up in prison. Then he got out and he went back to prison for stealing a car and stuff like that. But he's been doing a good job at Krueger's. And of course, they're interviewing Theodore Krueger, the owner. Here's the thing, though, that Theodore reveals is that, remember, in order to reupholster this love seat, somebody had to go get it. And somebody had to go get it the day before, and it was John. He went by himself. And Nancy was there, and she said, go ahead and take the love seat. And Theodore had not met her before. I know that doesn't mean anything, but, you know, when they're weighing these two guys and they're finding out John had been in prison and he just sort of was like a moody guy. I mean, he was engaged, but, you know, there was just a lot of stuff that felt like was off for him. But the big deal, just initially from the cops when they start questioning is that he was at the apartment retrieving the sofa by himself the day before her murder?

[C]

Well, he's. He's seeing Nancy, and he's seeing the valuables inside this apartment. And, you know, he's committed crimes, you know, for financial purposes. Now, does he go back, you know, to Krueger himself and say, hey, you know, there's an attractive woman inside this apartment, plus there's a lot of valuables, and they. They go and deliver, you know, the sofa, you know, the. The timing. If John was there the day before, right now, that doesn't add up with their findings of the. The timing. And I actually put more weight on the friend Georgia talking to Nancy that morning. So John didn't kill her on the day before. She's still alive because Georgia is saying, I talked to her. And so it makes more sense that when both John and Theodore Krueger go back, that is when Nancy is killed. And now are you dealing with. With two offenders that are attacking Nancy and assaulting her, or is one doing the sexual assault while the other is, you know, looking for something to. To steal? And. And at least it doesn't sound like her apartment was ransacked. It was just a, you know, handful of dollars out of her purse that was taken. You know, so it seems like it's more a sexually motivated crime than a financial crime. And this is where John came back and. And told Theodore Kruger, hey, there's an attractive woman on this, and we're going to be delivering this thing back. And they partner up. That's my guess. One isn't just standing there with his arms crossed. They went there to take advantage of Nancy being alone.

[D]

So I'll give you more information that Detective Keir finds out as he's talking to both of these guys. So Theodore says John's the one who went and got the sofa seat. He brought it back. We did the reupholstering. And he was supposed to come to work, I think he said, at 11, the day of Nancy's murder. And John comes at 12:30.

[C]

Okay, so John went alone ahead of time. And the fact that the cordage was brought there shows intent. Right? So that's. That's. That's an interesting little twist. And then John goes back and does the delivery with Theodore. And then now there's this cover, if you will. We just. We were there. You know, there's reason why my fingerprints would be inside Nancy's apartment, etc. But, you know, she. She's dead. And he has now Theodore Krueger, who can basically vouch. Well, John was with me. Yeah, you know, we just happened to discover Nancy dead at that point.

[D]

Yeah. I will say Theodore Kruger is very suspicious of John as this all kind of starts to go on. First, he doesn't give a great explanation for why he was late that day at 12:30 when he was supposed to be there an hour or two earlier. And then there is a story that John unfolds involving his probation officer involving visiting a building that we know was closed that day because it was Good Friday. And so John is full of crap for why he was late to clocking into work. And then Theodore says something really interesting. And it's Theodore picking up on something. And then, you know, the detective says, okay, well, that is really interesting. So Theodore, when they get there, the door's ajar. They put down the sofa. Theodore calls out Nancy Titterton's name. She doesn't respond. They see the light. It's Theodore who goes into the bathroom. He sees the body, and he says, she's dead, and calls out to John, call the police, which he does. But Theodore says he could hear John say, there is a woman tied up in the bathroom. And Theodore says to Detective Kerr, I never told him that. Yeah, yeah. And so that's when Kerr becomes very alarmed. So, you know, this is. Is kind of the road we're heading down is they're pretty convinced that John's the one who did this and not with Theodore's help, because Theodore is trying to kind of pick up on stuff. So it sounds like if this is the way it goes, John goes there in the morning before he's supposed to clock in, he kills her after her conversation with Georgia. So let's say at like 11:30, and either in the process of doing that when the delivery boy comes and nobody answers the door, or we don't know the timing, and then he rushes back to work. And he's there by 12:30, but work is around the corner. And then they show up at 4:15 to deliver this sofa.

[C]

Makes sense to me. No, absolutely. For sure.

[D]

I hope you never feel like I deceive you when I keep information like that.

[C]

Oh, I always feel like you deceive me.

[D]

Well, but that's. You're showing up as a detective on the crime scene. I mean, you don't find out all you got. Nobody hands you a dossier and says, this is the way this case is going to end. And so sort of things unravel. The more Keir talks to people, the more he's kind of going, oh, okay, that.

[C]

That's. That. That's typical. What you think about the crime when you first arrive at the crime scene or what you're told by the people. You know, it's what I call the story.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

So you have, you know, like, with. With Theodore and John, you know, they're. They're talking. That's part of the story. But as the evidence is processed, as the investigation goes, things that contradict the story have to modify how you think that crime went down. Down. And there's a. You know, I call the story. That's my hypothesis. And I fight. If I find something that is. That refutes the hypothesis, then it renders the hypothesis null. And now I have to develop another theory to fit the evidence or to fit the information and investigation.

[D]

And I know you'll get there eventually with these cases, but I have to tell you, when you were going down the Theodore route, I was getting a little anxiety because I was thinking, oh, no, I hope he doesn't. Because John does confess. He ends up confessing to this and kind of giving a lot. He even does a reenactment at the apartment of what happened. But, you know, but it was funny because with all of these cases, when you focus on somebody who I. I'm fairly sure you know, didn't do it, I always think, oh, my gosh, can we pull out of this? Or is he going to accuse this person?

[C]

Well, but that's, you know, but that's just part of the investigative process. You go, oh, Krueger has access to this type of cordage. Well, yeah, he becomes a suspect.

[D]

Right? Y.

[C]

But then as you interview and do more digging, it's like, nope, okay, I. I can set him aside, because now John is rising to the top. That is investigation 101.

[D]

Well, here's another one that I think you'll approve of. They lead John into believing that John is the most helpful witness they've ever had. So, you know, Detective Keir is saying, you know, we need your help. You guys were the last person you saw her. You were. You know, you were the ones initially into the apartment. I need your help. And so this plays into John's ego, of course. So this is. I'm not sure this is part is that great. But Keir starts planting red herrings in the press. This pisses off Nancy's family and friends, because one of the red herrings is that Nancy had a secret relationship and a jealous lover, and that that is probably the killer. And of course, that's, you know, meant to target John. And so that they've totally are off my case. And so now I can really, you know, help them. But to me, it was just another reminder of, of course, the relationship between the police and the press is transactional, but the planting of stories and intentional leaks and all of that stuff still bugs me. I know it happens, and a lot of times it's necessary, but it, you know, you think it's like going back and forth. You know, politicians do leaks and so do cops. And then, you know, that the press intentionally pressures. Uses their headlines to pressure the police in these investigations and so gives another reminder. Oh, yeah, this is a crappy relationship sometimes.

[C]

No, but you know, that, you know, the messaging through the media by law enforcement is something that is just part of the. The playbook. You know, the FBI, you know, behavioral analysis unit, when they give guidance, guidance, you know, part of their guidance is to message through the media, to communicate to your unknown offender in order to get some sort of behavior or some sort of response. It's just part of the, you know, the toolkit. And I know, you know, media doesn't want to be misinformed about the facts of the case, but law enforcement has a job to do, you know, and that's just part of what you have to do.

[D]

Well, let's see what John has to say, because he's becoming more and more comfortable with the police. He starts divulging information, you know, the things that they've withheld. You know, the detective Keir catches him way too many times and lies. And eventually he's confesses, he's arrested. They take him to the apartment, he does a reenactment, and this is what he says. So the day before, when he shows up, he becomes infatuated with Nancy. And he, that night, fantasizes about hurting her. And then he decides he's going to execute it that day in the morning, before he has to go to work. So he stuffs 52 inches of twine in his pocket from Theodore's shop. He goes to the apartment the next morning when she's not expecting him. He enters under the pretense that he needed to take additional measurements for the love seat. So no forced entry, he says. Then he attacks her. He gags her. He ties her hands with the upholstery cord, and he. He sexually assaults her. Then he strangles her. He said once she was unconscious, he decided to make it appear as though she had drowned in the bathtub. So he carries her from the bedroom to the bathroom, and with a knife he took from the kitchen, he slices the cord from her wrists. You had Asked about that. What kind of, you know, where did this come from? Was it a knife? And we can match things. He tried but failed to fill the tub with water. Water. And then he left. He tossed the cord, except for the one he left behind in a barrel on 50th Street. So that's what he says happened. And I mean, do you see anything that contradicts the evidence that we've talked about so far? He's trying to fill it with water, and it's not filling with water.

[C]

Yeah. Provided that he wasn't given, you know, leading questions.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, if he is organically providing these details and of course, I'd want to hear what did you strangle her with? You know, can you describe that? You know, kind of get more details as. As you're talking to him. But even with what you told me, I'm like, yeah, you know, this is something that only he would know. The interesting thing is, is, you know, the attempt at staging where he's trying to make it look like Nancy drowned in the tub, you know, and that's. That's a huge admission right there. That absolutely matches up with what happened at the crime scene and what happened to Nancy, you know, and the fact that, you know, she. He's saying she's unconscious. Well, he doesn't know if she's dead or not. Right.

[D]

And she's dead.

[C]

She's dead because she doesn't have any water in. In her trachea, in her lungs. She's not breathing when he's trying to fill up this bathtub. If any. If. Unless maybe the water isn't even pooling inside the bathtub. Maybe brain just isn't working at all. But, you know, everything that he is saying is like, this is the killer.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

No question.

[D]

Well, it's over. He goes on trial. He is convicted. He's sentenced to death. He's in Sing Sing, and he has given the electric chair, which would have been awful. Yeah.

[C]

How old is John?

[D]

24 years old. And it's a big escalation. Right. I mean, you're going from basically petty theft. You know, I mean, he's stealing stuff, but, you know, things that. That it seems like monetary gain to then this, but I know that that's also not that unusual.

[C]

Well, I. I would be fairly confident, based on his statement that he fantasized about hurting Nancy after he saw her. He's likely been committing, you know, you called it, you know, theft, thefts. You know, what he's doing is he's doing fetish burglaries that in all likelihood is what's happening. And some of them, of course he's getting financial gain, but he's getting, he's fantasizing about breaking into these places. And now, you know, the question is as well, at which age did he first start sexually assaulting women? He's only 24. And it's possible that this woman was his first. Right. But it's entirely possible that he's been doing this for years and you know, 1936, they're not going to catch him. You know, they're not even going to link other cases to him in, in that area or wherever he's been.

[D]

You know, he doesn't mention this in his confession, I don't think. But I had wondered if the delivery boy, 11:30, had interrupted him because if you, you would think, think why wouldn't he take her garter belt or any of these other items that apparently were not missing?

[C]

You know, what offenders take as souvenirs can, is very specific to the offender and what is important to the offender and, and what the offender associates with the crime. Not all offenders take souvenirs. Yeah. So that, you know, we know there seems to be missing cash out of Nancy's purse. Was there something else missing out of her purse? Purse? You know, and as, as you brought up, it's, it's like, well, how did they know there was $5 missing out of Nancy's purse? You know, I, I'm not putting much weight on that at all. But I, there's, I mean, this is an open and shut case. They got the right guy.

[D]

Well, you know, I mean, I like bringing you stories where the detectives are actually competent and do the right thing because we just run into so many alternative stories that, you know, are alternative scenarios where we have the police either not caring or they don't have the right tools. And so every once in a while this is, even though Gettler was pretty far off with his chloride theory. Yeah, it's good because it was really their hard work and tenaciousness that you need to have Right. In days of where people are expecting DNA when really it's good detective work that solves most crimes. So I thought this was a good case. I love it. I love seeing how hard they worked about it. I, I, I would hope they worked all cases like this. I don't know if they were that diligent with, you know, somebody who is in the Lower east side who is also murdered. I doubt it. But at least, at least we know that they, you know, are Capable of, of really doing some hard police work.

[C]

Well, I've seen, you know, of course, New York, you know, they have a ton of resources.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean they had 50 detectives doing the canvas. Right. And you have, you know, the primary investigator cure who, who actually is, you know, digging and doing really good work. Very experienced, well resourced agency. But I've seen it cut both ways. Yeah, very busy agency in many cases often get just shoved aside because they're getting called out to the next homicide or the next sexual assault, you know. But at least in Nancy's case, you saw having experience, expertise and resources, you know, come together to solve the case.

[D]

Yep, absolutely. And that's really good news. It's nice to be able to have an ending where the guy gets caught.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Okay. Next week we will see what kind of case we bring. It won't be 1936, most likely. I would love to go back to New York. I'm going to put a pin in that.

[C]

Sounds good.

[D]

Okay, I'll see you next time week.

[C]

All right. Looking forward to it. Thanks Kate.

[D]

This has been an exactly right production.

[C]

For our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia.com buriedbones sources.

[D]

Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi.

[C]

Research by Alison Trouble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

[D]

Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

[C]

Our theme song is by Tom Breivogel.

[D]

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac, executive

[C]

produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[D]

You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at buriedbonespod.

[C]

Kate's most recent book, all that is a Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to Decode the Criminal Mind is available now.

[D]

And Paul's bestselling memoir My Life Solving America's Cold Cases is also available now.

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