The Shooting of the Century PT 1

Summary

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Buried Bones - “The Shooting of the Century PT 1”

Podcast Hosts: Kate Winkler Dawson & Paul Holes
Date: March 11, 2026
Episode Summary by [Assistant]

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Overview

In this episode of Buried Bones, journalist Kate Winkler Dawson and forensic investigator Paul Holes unravel the notorious 1955 death of Billy Woodward, a wealthy Long Island socialite, shot by his wife Ann Woodward under circumstances that remain debated to this day. Through the lens of modern forensics, Kate and Paul dissect the physical and sociopolitical landscape surrounding the case, the night of the shooting, and conflicting accounts of what really happened inside the lavish Georgian mansion known as Sunken Orchard.

Central Question:
Was Billy’s death a tragic accident, a cold-blooded murder, or is there a third, as-yet-unexplored suspect hiding in the background?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Scene: Wealth, Status, and Golden Age Intrigue

• Introducing the Woodwards – The episode establishes the Woodward family as old-money elites living in luxury on Long Island’s Gold Coast, an area populated by names like the Vanderbilts, Astors, Morgans, and Woolworths. (07:46)

  • Quote: “So we're talking about the names that I'm sure you've heard of. The Vanderbilts and the Astors and the Woolworths, the Morgans, J.P. Morgan. And you know, they have these incredible sprawling estates...” – Kate (07:46)

• Sunken Orchard Estate – Billy Woodward’s estate is described through maps and photos, highlighting ornate gardens, staff, a “playhouse” once used as a music conservatory, and a setup demanding attention and care but also creating cover and confusion for any prowler or criminal. (09:40–13:40)

• Social Context – The Woodwards moved in circles with the likes of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, indicating immense privilege but also intense social politics and possibly pressures or resentments.

  • “They're at this party with, you know, the former King of England and his wife. So to me it gets. This world gets even wilder too.” – Kate (18:57)

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The Night of the Shooting (October 30, 1955)

• Burglaries Fuel Fear – A spat of burglaries in the posh area left residents nervous. The Woodwards’ property manager discovered signs of a squatter (broken window, open food cans, shoeprints), pointing to real security concerns just days before the shooting. (19:11–21:34)

  • “There has been a spat of burglaries in the area which would be alarming to anyone, but especially people of this kind of wealth.” – Kate (19:11)
  • Paul compares the situation to cases like the Golden State Killer, warning that property criminals sometimes escalate to violence. (21:34–23:59)

• Homecoming and Precautions – After a black-tie party, the Woodwards return home around 1am, mildly paranoid, and check the house (including their young sons) for intruders before retiring—each to their own, separate bedrooms, 18 feet apart via connecting hallway. (28:10–31:41)

  • “About 2 o'clock, she was startled awake by a noise… There are shadows moving around the wall in her bedroom... She sees the outline of a man. She shoots twice.” – Kate (41:14)

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The Shooting: Statement vs. Forensic Evidence

Ann Woodward’s Version

• Ann alleges she awoke to suspicious noises and shadows while under the influence of a sleeping pill. Her miniature poodle, Sloppy, is barking. Grabbing a loaded 12-gauge shotgun (with custom gold inlay), she fires twice at a dark figure in the hallway, believing it to be an intruder. When the smoke clears, she realizes she has shot her husband, Billy. She calls the operator, then her attorney. (41:14–42:20)
  • “She confesses immediately. And that's why I think the sequencing part's gonna be really important.” – Kate (40:32)
  • “She says she fired the shotgun at a dark figure in the hallway. She said it was an accident because she thought it was one of those squatter robber intruders.” – Kate (41:14)

The Forensics Breakdown

• Weapon & Wounds

  • 12-gauge shotgun, loaded with birdshot; both Ann and Billy were experienced with firearms.
  • Billy is found naked, head near a blood pool in his bedroom, lower body extending into the hallway; blood contained in one area of the house.
  • One pellet enters Billy’s brain, causing death; three additional pellets inside the skull. (52:14)
  • Wadding (the padding inside a shotgun shell) found in the chest, suggesting closer range. (55:22)
  • No gunpowder burns on Billy, indicating a shot from at least 15 feet away, possibly an intermediate range. (57:56)
  • Shot pattern: narrow on his body, spreads to two feet on the rear wall, suggesting closeness but not a contact shot. (57:56)

• Crime Scene Details

  • “His body is between the doorframe of the bedroom and the hallway and he's totally naked because presumably he was in bed or getting into bed at the time.” – Kate (33:34)
  • A pool of blood inside the bedroom (12x12 inch area), with the spread likely greater under the carpet padding, consistent with gunshot wound blood loss. (47:48)
  • Birdshot also impacts a rear wall and possibly the door.

• Chain of Custody & Scene Processing

  • Extraction of the body handled with what Paul calls less-than-ideal methods for trace evidence, echoing the standards (or lack thereof) of 1955 compared to modern techniques. (45:04–47:41)

• Analysis of Ann’s Account

  • Paul initially suspects her story doesn’t fit the scene, then revises as forensic details emerge (distance, wound pattern), and notes the trauma may have confused her memory. (41:15, 64:49)
    • “Right now that's a red flag.” (42:20)
    • “It could be consistent with Ann's story… but the positioning of his body, you know, that's important… It appears that he is likely right outside the bedroom door when he's shot or is able to take a few steps back towards the bedroom and then collapses...” – Paul (59:14–61:11)

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The Power of Privilege

• Police respond within 17 minutes, with high-ranking officials including the DA and chief detective arriving, highlighting the sway of the Woodwards. Paul raises the risk of political entanglements contaminating the investigation. (33:34–36:02)

  • “There's politics at play with that. And now they're all rolling out. And this has tremendous influence on the subordinates...” – Paul (33:34)

• Comparison to a modern case where a former DA-turned-defense-attorney’s early access to a crime scene ultimately tainted a case, underscoring the dangers of “exception handling” for the powerful. (34:00)

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Memorable Quotes

• “He [the lobster in Paul’s fish tank] ended up being the serial predator of the tank. He would rush out of his cave and snatch the snails…” – Paul (03:57)

• “This really is a presentation.” – Kate on the estate’s photos and status signaling (13:12)

• “It’s like, what do you want to say, bragging rights?...It’s that almost pretentious aspect...” – Paul (13:40)

• “She confesses immediately. And that's why I think the sequencing part's gonna be really important.” – Kate (40:32)

• "She's lying, man." – Paul (41:14, initial response), later softened as evidence reviewed

• “Did she kill him accidentally or did she do it on purpose? Or door number three, did somebody else do it?” – Kate (64:10)

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Important Timestamps

• 07:46–14:27: Setting the scene – the Woodwards’ status and estate, visual evidence
• 17:22–21:34: The party, neighborhood burglaries, and fear for safety
• 28:10–33:34: Night of the shooting, Woodwards’ routines, and homecoming events
• 41:14–47:48: Ann’s confession, her version vs. forensic details
• 47:48–61:11: Scene walkthrough, blood evidence, autopsy, and shotgun forensics
• 64:10–65:01: Episode cliffhanger and Paul’s reevaluation of Ann’s credibility

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Tone & Atmosphere

The episode mixes Kate’s narrative verve and journalistic detail with Paul’s methodical, often skeptical forensic mind. Banter and storytelling are balanced with careful analysis, maintaining a tone that is both accessible and deeply informed—making the old case vibrantly immediate for listeners.

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Cliffhanger & What’s Next

The episode ends with a promise to explore the tumultuous Woodward marriage and other possible suspects in part two. The central forensic question—accident, murder, or an alternative scenario—remains tantalizingly unresolved, setting the stage for further revelations.

• “I have to leave it here because their relationship, plus another very, very viable suspect are gonna take up a whole other episode.” – Kate (64:10)

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For images, diagrams, and more: Follow @buriedbonespod on Instagram.

Transcript

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is exactly right. I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, and on our podcast Buried Bones, Paul Holes and I analyze historic crimes through the lens of modern forensics.

[Paul Holes]

And we're thrilled to announce that now you can watch us investigate the past every week, because Buried Bones is on Netflix.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Just search Buried Bones on your Netflix homepage and be sure to click the double thumbs up and remind me buttons. That's the best way you can support our show.

[Paul Holes]

See you on Netflix.

[Ana Sinfield]

Then she says, have you seen a

[Unknown Female Host (Dirty Rush Podcast)]

photo of my son? And I'm like, who is this person?

[Unknown Female Host (Boys and Girls Podcast)]

Welcome to the Boys and Girls podcast. Arranged marriage is basically a reality show, and you're auditioning for your soulmate. And who's judging? Only your entire family. I sacrificed myself to this ancient tradition hoping to find love the right way. And instead, I found chaos, confidence, comedy, and a lot of cringe. Listen to Boys and Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Paul Holes]

Hey, it's Alec Baldwin. This season on my podcast, here's the Thing, I talk to composer Mark Shaman. It's about the hang. It's the pleasure of hanging out with the people that you're with. You know, Rob and I was always a great hang. And journalist Chris Whipple.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Every White House staffer, they work in a bubble called the West Wing, and it's exponentially more so in the Trump White House.

[Paul Holes]

Listen to the new season of here's the thing on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.

[Paul Holes]

And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

[Paul Holes]

And I weigh in. Using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens.

[Paul Holes]

Some are solved and some are cold. Very cold.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is Buried Bones. Hey, Paul.

[Paul Holes]

Hey, Kate. How are you?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm doing great. We match.

[Paul Holes]

I know. It's like. Like we planned it. We've coordinated this.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

We did not. You know, I've never worn this color before, so I was excited to wear it. I don't know if I've seen you. It's like we're just connected in that way. Whoever. Whatever outfits we're wearing. Yeah, it's a good color on you, and you have a slightly different Background, which I love. We get to see more of the man cave, which I think some of our listeners and our viewers are familiar with.

[Paul Holes]

Right. No, you know, obviously, you know, in order to probably have a more presentable visual experience on my side. Yours has always been good, but thank you. You know, I tried to squeeze this video recording for the PODC cast into my man cave and, you know, it was a, it was a tight squeeze, but we've got things at least somewhat worked out now.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

But the, the important thing is the fish are okay, right? Everybody is in their place. Your killer, your killer clownfish is still there, you check.

[Paul Holes]

They're still swimming around, so all's good though. I, I, I think I lost my lobster, so.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Oh, no, that's not good. How do you, well, I'm sure you know how, how to tell if you've lost a lobster. Why would you lose a lobster?

[Paul Holes]

You know, they, well, they have a lifespan. You know, there may be certain times when the tank conditions are quite optimal for an invertebrate like him. I just haven't seen him emerge from his cave probably for two months now. So I'm thinking he's likely, likely done. They do, I mean, they are very, these reef lobsters are very timid, you know, so he just kind of scurries out, grabs his food and goes back underneath the cave, but he's just not coming out. So I think he's, he's, he's done. Which is, I mean, I'm sad about it, but the reality was is he was, he took over. Even though he was the victim of the serial killer clownfish, once that particular clownfish was gone, he ended up being the serial predator of the tank. He would rush out of his cave and snatch the snails as they were crawling by and, you know, take them in. And I was just like, oh, I didn't realize you were doing that. So I have a feeling he probably took care of a couple of the fish that I lost in the last six months too.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Oh my gosh, what a drama. It's like these are the days of our lives. And your, and your fish tank, when did you start with the fish tank to begin with? Has this been like a lifelong thing that you've enjoyed having fish?

[Paul Holes]

Well, you know, I had a saltwater tank back in my college days. You know, it was a small 50 gallon tank. Didn't have a clue what I was doing there. There weren't the online resources that there are today to lear. And this is, you know, it is a fairly complicated hobby and a Very expensive one. So I always kind of wanted to revisit having a saltwater tank. And it was roughly about five years ago that I decided to pull the trigger and start researching it and getting it set up. And it takes, you know, for the tank to mature. It literally takes a couple of years for it to kind of grow into its own. As, you know, you have to establish a microbiome. You have to establish, you know, an ecosystem that's friendly across all the various creatures you have in there, you know, And I want it to be what's called a mixed reef, which means I have the fish, I have the invertebrates, I have the coral. And I. Right now, I've just really struggled keeping coral alive. So I'm not even spending money on that just yet until I get the, you know, the water conditions in the tank dialed in better.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, I love water creatures, too, but I did it the cheap and easy way, which is I lived along a river in a creek together, and I just hung out and watched the frogs play on the lily pads and checked on the fish and everything and darted around cottonmouths, which we had. Boy, I mean, I remember watching. I've always been kind of scared of snakes, but I remember watching a snake go on top of the water down the San Marcos river past where our farm was, and it was just sort of slithering on top of the water, and the water was going at a fast pace, and I just thought that frightening to me. But it's also beautiful, and I understand why people get so into animals like that. So I'm glad you like the fish tank. I'm not sure that will be the way I go. I might need to stick with Bailey, Bailey and Ruby, but. But we'll see. I know where to go to if I want some fish.

[Paul Holes]

I can try to give you advice if you ever go that direction.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, I had wondered in the 50s, what kind of animals, the, you know, pets that the wealthy people had, because that's where we are in the story. We're in New York in the 1950s. I would have to say the wealthiest family we've ever talked about on this show. And I see no mention of dogs or anything like that. But we've certainly talked a lot about pigs and animals and all sorts of things involved in our stories. So I was just thinking, I wonder if they had a pet. Probably not, though. But I guess we'll see.

[Paul Holes]

All right. Well, pets come into play at crime scenes all the time.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

They do. Well, let's see what happens with this one. Okay, let's go ahead and set the scene. We are on Long island on the Gold coast in 1955. Great time period. So this is an extremely wealthy area. I've already sort of ruined that tease there. This is where a lot of New York's wealthiest, most powerful families go. Sometimes they live there, sometimes they're just visiting. So we're talking about the names that I'm sure you've heard of. The Vanderbilts and the Astors and the Woolworths, the Morgans, JP Morgan. And you know, they have these incredible sprawling estates that are just beautiful. The kind of estates I think about when I think about England, you know, with just acres and acres and acres and private land and then gated communities and guards and all of that. So already we're setting ourselves up here for what will become a high profile death because it involves a very high profile family. So I hope you're excited about this because this is not often we talk about this socioeconomic level of people here.

[Paul Holes]

Well, yeah, this sounds like, you know, the richest families that the nation has ever had. At least some of them, you know. So that's going to have to come into play at some point when we get into the crime itself.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, absolutely. And we'll see. So the family we're focusing on are the Woodwards, which was a family I've not been familiar with when I've done research in this time period and before about families. But the main person here is Billy Woodward. He is the son of a prominent banker named William Woodward Sr.

[Paul Holes]

Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And you know, Billy is considered sort of a playboy. I'm not sure how much he participated in family business. I think it sounds like he benefited from his father's wealth.

[Paul Holes]

More like a trust fund baby, right?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, trust fund baby. I would say. Billy has an estate. It's called Sunken Orchard and it is an Oyster Bay cove, if you know anything about Long Island. Very wealthy area at that time. And this is 68 and it's a Georgian style estate with lots of manicured gardens and swimming pools and indoor tennis courts. Very, to me, very English gardens. This takes a lot of staff to keep up. Two years ago they had bought a 25 acre piece of a neighboring estate that is surrounding a 12 room residence overlooking these French gardens. And that was called the playhouse and it had one. At first I thought playhouse, that it was a little naughty, but it's really because it used to house the estate's classical music conservatory. So that's where that name comes from. So now let me go ahead and show you this place before we get into Billy's family. So if you go to the photos that I sent you, you just need to look at photos 1, 2, and 3.

[Paul Holes]

So the first image I'm looking at here, I'm not even. I wouldn't call it a photo. It looks like it's a sketch. It's like a map, but it's of the playhouse. And it appears that, as you mentioned, you have large residential structures. You have an indoor tennis court. There's a large parking lot. Obviously, maybe because of the music that was being played at this location, they would have a fairly large audience coming to park their vehicles. But a lot of trees and a lot of walking pathways. I'm struck, of course, by the size, you know, but the amount of vegetation that apparently is surrounding this looks like it could be fairly dense, you know, and you have walking paths. It kind of reminds me of. I'm envisioning. Envisioning, you know, the one scene in Harry Potter in that labyrinth. Yeah, I forget what that was called. But, I mean, you know, as you can't quite see past, you know, the end of each row, and Paul, I

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

think this is just the 25 acres that we were talking about.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Or. Yeah, it was 25 acres that they bought. So, you know, this isn't even the full 60 acres that they have. This is a lot of property where you can sneak around a lot. Right.

[Paul Holes]

Most early. Now I'm looking at the second photo. It looks like it's a photo of. There's definitely a water feature in the backdrop, maybe a couple of lawns, you know, very meticulously groomed bushes. And I'm sure it probably has, you know, in spring, you know, flowers that are planted. But you do have a significant, you know, amount of trees kind of surrounding it. So you can't. I mean, in some. In one way, it's a neat space to kind of hang out in, and you're going to feel somewhat, you know, protected because of the trees that are surrounding it. But at the same time, you don't have visibility outside of this particular space. So that, of course, is something. Not knowing anything about this crime right now, but that's just something I'm kind of noting in case that you have somebody that's coming onto the property and able to get close to the victim, they likely would be able to do it undetected.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And I'll say this just from my point of view, this is very clearly someone, Billy Woodward, who cares about appearances, who cares about, you know, his status in life, the way that he looks and the way that his property is presented and probably his family also, because he is married. And I'll tell you about Anne in a little bit. But this is, you know, we've got at least four looks like little Greek statues. I mean, this really is a presentation.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, for sure. You know, and it's. I mean, it's like a. What do you want to say? Like they're bragging rights. Yeah, right.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

You know, I can afford this and I can afford to keep it up.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holes]

You know, it's that almost that pretentious aspect, that characteristic, you know. And then the last photo you want me to look at is the front of a large house. You can see the front door. There's, you know, kind of a cover over it with some columns, at least two stories, maybe some attic space or attic rooms that I can see on. On the roof line. Multiple chimneys. This house itself doesn't look massive, but it most certainly looks expensive.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, it is. And, you know, I think that they. They have multiple properties, and so I think sprawling for a lot of them is how it seemed to be described. And this is Georgian style architecture. I mean, it's beautiful. It's beautiful, but this just gives you. I kind of straight away wanted to say this is the level of wealth we're talking about. Yeah. I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, and on our podcast Buried Bones, Paul Holes and I analyze historic crimes through the lens of modern forensics.

[Paul Holes]

And we're thrilled to announce that now you can watch us investigate the past every week because Buried Bones is on Netflix.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Just search Buried Bones on your Netflix homepage and be sure to click the double thumbs up and remind me button. That's the best way you can support our show.

[Paul Holes]

See you on Netflix.

[Gia Giudice]

Welcome to Dirty Rush, the truth about sorority Life, the good, the bad, and the sisterhood, with your hosts, me, Gia

[Daisy Kent]

Giudice, Daisy Kent, and Jennifer Fessler. Rush. The recruitment, the ritual, the reality of Greek life has been a mystery for those outside the sorority circles until now.

[Unknown Female Host (Dirty Rush Podcast)]

Is it really a supportive sisterhood that simply misunderstood, or is there something more scandalous happening on campuses across the country? In this podcast, we pledge to peel back the layers and spell the truth one Greek letter at a time.

[Gia Giudice]

Pledges and actives, Rush chairs and ritual keepers. Some call it the best time of their life, while others say it's a nightmare.

[Daisy Kent]

From a perfect rush to recruitment scandals, what is really going on behind the doors of those sorority houses from Alpha to Omega?

[Unknown Female Host (Dirty Rush Podcast)]

Yeah, we're taking you inside sorority row, including the chapter room. As we explore the fellowship and the frenemies, let's get dirty. Listen to Dirty rush on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on?

[Paul Holes]

Biggie.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable.

[Paul Holes]

Cause I wanna get confident.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

This is DJ Hester Prynne's Music Is Therapy, a new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist that asks one simple question. Who do you want to be? And what's the song that can take you there? Music changes what you feel, and what you feel changes what you do. Right that moment where a song shifts something inside you, that's where transformation starts. This year, I'm talking to experts across every area of life, like personal finance icon Gene Chaty, New York Times journalist David Gellis, relationship legend Dan Savage, human connection teacher Mark Groves, and the man who shaped my ear more than anyone, Questlove. They'll bring the strategies. I'll pair them with the right records, and we'll teach you how to use the music to make change stick. This isn't just a podcast. It's unconventional therapy for your entire year. Listen to DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So let's talk about the night of the incident. So it's October 30th. Leaves are probably beautiful at this time in long is they are going to a very fancy party. And when I say they, I mean Billy and his wife Ann. She's 39. They have two young boys who are at the house at the time Billy and Ann leave and they're going to, you know, one of many social engagements for the fall for them. This is a black tie dinner with a lot of other high society socialites. This, this dinner is hosted by George and Edith Kane Baker, who I don't know. I do know who this was in honor of, which was the Duke and Duchess of Windsor. And I don't know if you, you know, you know the story of this, but this was Edward viii, former king, who abdicated because he wanted to be with and subsequently married a woman named Wallis Simpson, who was American socialite and twice divorced. And it caused quite a scandal. And he said, I don't want to be K anymore. And he left. And this is where we end up with Queen Elizabeth II's father. So, you know, they're in America. They've either moved there by 1955 or they're in America an awful lot. Billy and Ann Woodward are in this social circle, which is just incredible. I mean, the amount of wealth must have been amazing. So they're at this party with, you know, the former King of England and his wife. So to me it gets. This world gets even wilder too.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, well, you know, of course you've got the, you know, the wealth, the social status. But there also has to be extreme politics at play amongst probably everybody within this party.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yep. And lots of egos and all of that and lots of business transactions. Now I don't know if Billy's involved with this because I don't think Billy is involved with much of anything regarding business, as we said. I think he just, you know, ends up spending his father's money and then, and I believe Ann spends Billy's money, which is William Sr's money. So this is a great party by any standard. From what everybody says. There are some concerns that are circulating around this group of friends, this wealthy group. So they're tipsy and they're gossiping. And while Billy is bragging about his new Helio Courier, which is a four seat plane that he just bought in Kansas, he's bragging about this. Everybody else is, you know, a little bit anxious because there has been a spat of burglaries in the area which would be alarming to anyone, but especially people of this kind of wealth. They're talking about two days ago someone had burglarized the house of a different couple. The Barings and the Woodwards say that they were concerned also because their home had not been burglarized. But the property manager notified them that there was evidence that someone had been squatting in their garage. And remember, 60 acres, you know, and we're talking about just a mass amount of property and a lot of buildings where it's possible that Ann, Billy had not even been even remotely close to this garage for a really long time and maybe wouldn't have even had a reason to be there because probably they had drivers. So I'll give you the detail and then I want your reaction. So what the property manager said was the day before this party, the property manager said that a window had been broken in the garage and open cans of food had been found in this like pool house, cabana area also. And the manager said that there were shoe prints near the estate's main entrance, which I guess was unusual. I don't think people were allowed to come up to that part of the entrance. I don't know about their guard situation or anything like that, but it was alarming to Billy and Ann not alarming enough to, you know, add new safeguards. But things were happening in this area that was concerning, I think, to everybody at this level of wealth.

[Paul Holes]

Well, burglaries are, you know, if you are a victim of a burglary, even though it is a property crime, typically there's such an intrusion into your personal space. I mean, it truly is traumatizing for people that suffer this. And of course, if there's property that has been lost, especially if there's a lot of value to, or sentimental value to that property, that just, you know, adds to the, you know, the victimization. You know, the squatting in, the garage window being broken in, guy going in, it looks like he's going after food. You know, on one hand, that could suggest you are dealing with somebody who's transient, right. And they're just taking advantage of this large property and knowing that there's, you know, food and maybe some valuables that they'll be able to get. However, I wouldn't put it outside the realm of possibility that you have an individual that is, in essence, trolling this neighborhood and is spending considerable time, particularly considering the size of these properties, the ability to move around without being detected as they evaluate where they're going to hit and just the normal course of life during the day they get hungry, and so they're going to eat, you know, and this is where, you know, like the Golden State Killer, Joe d', Angelo, during his east area rapist phase, you know, he often would eat the victim's food and drink their beer or their soda. And some say behaviorally that's, you know, kind of further expressing power and control over the victims, which it is, but it also is the practical nature. He was out there prowling all the time, and it's been a long time since he's had food or drink. And so that's one of those things that I'd be. As this proceeds, you do have at least what sounds like an active criminal in this neighborhood.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Do we often see people who are squatting or robbing escalating for some reason? Because we have talked about peeping Toms, escalating their behavior oftentimes, sometimes oftentimes to sexual assault. Do we see the same thing in squatters or people who are kind of in and, you know, taking over a little bit and then leaving?

[Paul Holes]

Yes. These individuals aren't restricting themselves to one type of crime. You know, when they are, let's say, in a neighborhood and going out and committing burglaries. It's not uncommon that they're also taking advantage of maybe running across a victim and then there's a sexual assault. Or there are times when you have somebody that is in the area and ends up killing, whether it's because they got caught while they're inside the house or they have other nefarious reasons to commit homicide. So it's something in law enforcement that we do see. There isn't necessarily the fantasy motivation that serial predators have that can lead to evolution and escalation. We are dealing with a different type of psychology when you're dealing with somebody that is more interested, let's say, in financial gain through property crimes. But given a set of circumstances, either for self preservation or being under the influence of substance, they end up committing more serious, violent crimes for sure.

[Gia Giudice]

Welcome to Dirty Rush, the truth about Sorority Life, the Good, the bad, and the sisterhood. With your hosts, me, Gia Giudice, Daisy

[Daisy Kent]

Kent, and Jennifer Kessler. Rush the recruitment, the ritual, the reality of Greek life has been a mystery for those outside the sorority circles until now.

[Unknown Female Host (Dirty Rush Podcast)]

Is it really a supportive sisterhood that's simply misunderstood, or is there something more scandalous happening on campuses across the country? In this podcast, we pledge to peel back the layers and spell the truth one Greek letter at a time.

[Gia Giudice]

Pledges and actives, Rush chairs and ritual keepers. Some call it the best time of their life, while others say it's a nightmare.

[Daisy Kent]

From a perfect rush to recruitment scandals, what is really going on behind the doors of those sorority houses from Alpha to Omega?

[Unknown Female Host (Dirty Rush Podcast)]

We're taking you inside sorority Row, including the chapter room, as we explore the fellowship and the frenemies.

[Gia Giudice]

Let's get dirty.

[Unknown Female Host (Dirty Rush Podcast)]

Listen to Dirty rush on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on?

[Paul Holes]

Biggie.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable.

[Paul Holes]

Because I want to get confident.

[DJ Hester Prynne]

This is DJ Hester Prinz. Music Is Therapy, a new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist that asks one simple question. Who do you want to be? And what's the song that can take you there? Music changes what you feel, and what you feel changes what you do. Right that moment where a song shifts something inside you, that's where transformation starts. This year, I'm talking to experts across every area of life, like personal finance icon Gene Chaty, New York Times journalist David Gellis, relationship legend Dan Savage, human connection teacher Mark Brown Groves, and the man who shaped my ear more than anyone, Questlove. They'll bring the strategies. I'll pair them with the Right Records and we'll teach you how to use the music to make change stick. This isn't just a podcast, it's unconventional therapy for your entire year. Listen to DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ana Sinfield]

Hi listeners, I'm Ana Sinfield, the host of the Girlfriend Spotlight and I've got some great interviews coming your way. I'm also excited to tell you that you can now get access to all episodes of season 1, 2, 3 and 4 of the Girlfriends and every single episode of The Girlfriends spotlight 100% ad free and one week early through the I Heart True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts Plus. You'll get access to other chart topping true crime shows you love like Betrayal, Paper Ghosts, Piketon Massacre, the Brothers Ortiz, what Happened in Nashville, Hell and Gone, the Godmother and more. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for I Heart True Crime plus and subscribe today.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So let's go ahead and get into what happens and then I'll be interested in seeing what you think about if there is potentially a connection. So they are partying with the former king and his wife and all of these socialites. Around 1am the Woodwards decide to come home. So they get back to Sunken Orchard and they're mildly paranoid, as I think a lot of people would be. So they are going room to room checking for anybody, you know who might be hiding in the rooms. They check on the boys, their kids, they haven't found anything that's unusual. So they go to bed. So let's start with this. So Anne takes a sleeping pill and they have separate, not just separate beds, they have separate bedrooms. Separate beds in the same room were not in common. That's how my grandparents were. And then separate bedrooms in general were not that uncommon. And especially in wealthier families when they could afford to have separate bedrooms, the idea of, you know, when you wanted to sleep together, you could sleep together, but you would get more rest separately. Of course, if you are a couple who has some acrimony and are going through some troubles, then having separate bedrooms is an even better idea. I just don't want there to be any suspicion just because they have separate bedrooms. Because it's just a different time period.

[Paul Holes]

Sure. And I think just stating the obvious, now you have the male in one bedroom, you have Ann in another bedroom. She is under the influence of a sleeping pill so her senses are dulled. And so each of these individuals are now isolated from each other as well as from their children. Now, you said these were two young boys. Is there a nanny or a caretaker in the house that was present while the Woodwards were at the party Now?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I imagine so, but I don't see a mention of a nanny or a babysitter or a governess in the house at the time. The boys are there and the couple is there and that's it. But I don't believe they left the boys alone during this party. Now, a note. There is an 18 foot long hallway between Ann's bedroom and Billy's bedroom. So why don't you tell me, is that a long way between, like if there's an emergency or is that. I'm so bad at distances. I mean, does that seem close or does that seem sort of like a, you know, other ends of a house?

[Paul Holes]

Let's think of the typical, you know, size bedroom in a middle class, standard middle class house, and I would say roughly 10ft by 10ft. So if you put two of those average bedrooms together, now, you're exceeding that 18 foot length, and that's one of those. As I'm visualizing this hallway connecting the two bedrooms, my sense is that the doors leading into these bedrooms were probably, you know, on opposite ends of each bedroom. And the bedroom spaces themselves were joined by a singular wall, you know, which possibly could suggest that Anne's bed is butting up against the same wall that Billy's bed is right now. I'm just speculating, but at least you know, that distance in and of itself, depending on how the bedrooms are configured, could be a pretty significant distance if you start talking about, you know, somebody seeing or hearing something. But it all depends on how these bedrooms are actually configured with each other.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So There is an 18 foot long hallway between Billy's room and Ann's room. And this is a 12 room home that I showed you the picture of. So you had mentioned. I mean, it's large, but it's not this, you know, palace mansion. But this is, you know, this is a place where they were able to check themselves, make sure the boys were okay. They go to bed. So about an hour after they get home, it's 2:07. The Nassau county operator, Long island, gets a hysterical phone call. Someone has been shot at the Woodward residence. There's a murder. They follow up and say, and this is about, like, as I said before, about an hour after the Woodwards got home. So the police respond quickly. I would hope not more quickly than if this were a middle class or A lower class house. But they respond very quickly. Seventeen minutes later. And considering kind of how spread out these estates were, it sounds like they moved pretty quickly. The responding officer was Lieutenant C. Russell Half, and he's with the Oyster Bay Cove Police. And then there's a district attorney named Frank Gulata and there is a Nassau county chief detective. And they all come to the scene because this is a well known family. So they find Anne with blood smeared on her face and her hands and her nightgown. But Ann is not the victim. Billy's the victim. When they find her, she is weeping inconsolably by Billy's body. His body is between the doorframe of the bedroom and the hallway and he's totally naked because presumably he was in bed or getting into bed at the time. So what do you want to know first, kind of the weapon in the scene or, you know, and then I'll have autopsy reports. What's the best way to go, do you think?

[Paul Holes]

Well, I think first is a comment. You know, you have this historical phone call coming in at 2:07am and that sounds like that must have been Ann. It's important to kind of put context into the timing of the response. As you know, now you have your standard telephone operator receiving this hysterical phone call. That operator now has to reach out and connect to law enforcement or connect and to law enforcement in order for that, you know, that information is passed in order to get the first responders rolling. It's interesting that we have, you know, it was the, let me see here we have a lieutenant da, you have the da and then also you have the detective chief rolling out and you know, the da, you know, rolling out immediately would suggest that there was a telephone tree that happened right when whoever receives the phone call about who's been killed, you know, now there's that, oh shit. And now you have uppity ups, higher ups within these various law enforcement entities who possibly have personal relationships with the family, possibly the family are donors to some of the elected officials. You know, there's politics at play with that. And now they're all rolling out. And this has tremendous influence on the subordinates who are also tasked with investigating the case and processing the crime scene. So it'll be interesting to see how that plays into how the case progresses moving forward. I mean, I can think of a modern case in which the former elected DA, who is now a defense attorney, was allowed in by the local law enforcement agency going, oh, he, he's just one of us. And that now that that attorney is seeing the crime scene and is able to advise his, his clients, you know, how to, you know, be interviewed, how to answer certain interview questions. So, you know, that case was contaminated from the very beginning. And, and you know, so this is all, this is where there's reasons why, you know, when you have a crime, you start restricting access. And it's not just to protect physical evidence, it's to protect the case itself.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, and this turns into a really big case. So the weapon is a shotgun. He has been shot with what they called bird shot. So first explain birdshot.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, the shotguns, you know, they have, you know, they're a smooth bore weapon and you have different, what are called gauges of shotgun. The most common one that people will have heard of is 12 gauge. Just the diameter of a way to measure the diameter of the, the inner, the inner diameter of the bore of the weapon. The types of ammunition that shotguns can use can vary significantly. And when you start taking a look at the typical shotgun rounds, in essence, you have a plastic shell that has a brass or metal base to it that houses the, the primer that in essence when the, you know, the trigger is pulled, you now have the, you know, the, the firing pin striking that primer, which is what ignites the gunpowder and pushes the ammunition out the bore of the shotgun. Typically inside these shot shells, you have, you know, metal balls, for lack of a better word. And, and the type of ammo, the size of these balls can vary considerably. So when you start talking about something like birdshot, now you have, and I couldn't tell you what the typical number is, but let's say over 100 of these very small metal balls that when the shotgun is fired, all of those metal balls go down rage in order to strike the target versus, you know, something that law enforcement uses in their 12 gauge shotguns is what we call double op buck. And this is nine marble sized metal balls, you know, that are much more lethal when firing at a larger animal such as a human. So birdshot with these small lightweight metal balls. You know, they are designed to disperse. So you have basically this large cloud of metal balls flying downfield and they spread out wider and wider the further they go downfield. But this is to ensure that you actually hit the game that you're hunting, the birds as an example that you're hunting. And you have these small balls that are hitting this small animal and it's lethal to that animal. But, and so it's not like, you know, creating these devastating injuries from a distance where now if you plan on eating that animal, you've got a problem. So the use of the bird shot, you know, that may not have been a purposeful decision by the shooter. That may have just been what was available to the shooter. But it does have influence in terms of the injury, the assessing the distance that, you know, the, the shooter was standing at the time Billy was shot. You know, so that's generally real loosely, you know, how I would characterize what birdshot is. And I'm sure any firearms examiners listening to me are going, come on, Paul, you can do better than that. But that really, you know, I think for the listeners that should, should suffice. Of course, you know, with the doorknob being blasted off, did Billy have the practice of locking his door when he goes into his bedroom? Considering, you know, how security conscious, you know, they, they demonstrate it by coming into the house and, and searching, basically clearing the house to make sure there wasn't anything amiss or anybody that was in there that shouldn't be in there. Maybe, you know, that night because they're kind of freaked out by the local burglaries and the squatter and the, the garage that they're taking extra security measures. And you know, a shotgun can be used to shoot through these door mechanisms.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, I'm going to have to jump around and give you some information because I do think you're going to need to understand the sequence because it's slightly confusing to me. Okay, so let's start with. It was a 12 gauge shotgun. It is lying next to annoying. She knows how to use a shotgun, as does Billy. Billy is a hunter and goes on hunts with him. Not to bury the lead anymore, but she confesses immediately. And that's why I think the sequencing part's gonna be really important.

[Paul Holes]

And this sounds like it's a question of accidental versus homicide.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Exactly. I have that line written right down here. This is an accident or is it murder? And so we have some photos that could be helpful, but I think where his body is versus where the blood is is interesting. So. I told you It's a 12 gauge shotgun. She says she fired the shotgun at a dark figure in the hallway. She said it was an accident because she thought it was one of those squatter robber intruders. She couldn't see clearly. Then she finds out it's Billy. Then she immediately called the operator to get the police over.

[Paul Holes]

She's lying, man.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Don't end this week. We still have a lot to talk about.

[Paul Holes]

Well, you know, this is where, you know, correlating the Crime scene evidence versus the now suspect statements is so critical. And, you know, most certainly, you know, right now, the injuries, the burnshot injuries to Billy's neck and face could be consistent with being shot in the hallway. However, you have a shotgun that's been used to shoot the, you know, lock the, the locking mechanism on the door, and you have birdshot impacting the wall inside that, that bedroom. There's nothing about her statement that could account for that firearms evidence at this point. So I think any, you know, very, very novice investigator would be looking at this crime scene and listening to her statement going, that's not adding up, you know, and maybe she's leaving out detail there, there's possible trauma that she suffered that is causing her initial statements to be so far off. But right now that's a red flag.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, well, let me tell you what she says and then what the physical evidence shows, and then there are a couple photos for you. This is what she says. So, I mean, let's forget about the emotion. The prowler, we all understand that they looked for signs of intruders. Everybody's paranoid. She said about 2 o' clock, she was startled awake by a noise. Remember, they're 18ft away down a hallway. There are shadows moving around the wall in her bedroom. Her bedroom door, I presume, is open. They have a miniature poodle named Sloppy. Great name. The dog is barking in the kitchen and she thinks there's a prowler. Now, they're on the first floor, they're not on the second floor. This is the first floor of this residence. And she gets the shotgun, which is resting on a chair in her bedro she knows how to use a shotgun. And just so you know, Billy has, in his bedroom, in his desk, there is a shotgun and a pistol. And the pistol is actually still in its holster. And they both belong to Billy. So, you know, there are weapons throughout this house. But she's got a shotgun that's loaded. She says that she grabs a shotgun from her chair. She steps into the dark hallway. 2am she has a sleeping pill in her system. Remember, she sees the outline of a man. She shoots twice. Birdshot is sprayed down the corridor. Pellets from the second shot ricochet off the bedroom door at the end of the hallway, and the man fell. When the gunpowder cleared, she saw that he had not, in fact, been, you know, an intruder, that this was Billy. So she calls the operator first and then she calls her attorney. Both smart moves as far as I'm concerned. So what I get confused about is, is the door open or shut. It says that the handle. Right, we get that detail that the handle had been blown off. But I'm gonna show you a photo in a second that shows the pool of blood, it looks like in his bedroom. And that's where I was kind of going, I don't understand what's happening here. So if you look at photo number. Well, interesting photo, as I ask you about forensically, but we can wait on that. They're carrying his body out, and so that's on page four. But on page five, you see the bedroom. So you can, Paul, either discuss the. What I presume is not the greatest way to bring a body out. I mean, maybe it is. Or you can talk about the blood pooling, whatever you want to do.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah. Well, in essence, you have four officials, actually three, who are actually carrying Billy's body out. Looks like it's wrapped in something akin to, you know, like a hammock. His feet are.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

They have handles.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah, has handles. You know, they're literally just carrying him, like a duffel bag, just each one taking a handle. His feet, bare feet are sticking out the end of it. The material of that carrying case appears to be some sort of fabric, you know, so this, you know, from a trace evidence standpoint is less than ideal. You know, of course, today we have body bags that you can zip up before you move the body. These body bags protect the body from contamination, though the body can contaminate itself inside the body bag, what we call the body bag effect. Sort of like a shake and bake, if you will.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Shake and bake, as in like a chicken shake and bake.

[Paul Holes]

You know, you think about. You throw the, you know, the chicken into. Yeah, panko crumbs, you know, what do they call that? Panko or whatever. And you shake it up in order to get it covered. Well, you throw a body in a body bag, and because of the jostling and moving the body into the corners, van and at the morgue and everything else, you know, blood redistributes, you get new blood patterns. You get, you know, possibly foreign blood that gets, you know, diluted by the victim's own blood. So it's. It's not kind to the physical evidence on the body if it hasn't been documented and processed at the crime scene. Priority to being put in a body bag. But these modern body bags, you know, first, oftentimes they. The zippers are. Are closed, and then they're. They're sealed with a. A clasp that has to be broken in order to unzip the bag. So it's, it's part of the chain of custody aspects of transporting a body from the crime scene to the morgue. So when the pathologist or the pathology assistant and investigators are there to reopen that body bag, they can tell that the body hasn't been tampered with since it left the crime scene. Here you don't have that type of mechanism. Plus with the fabric and you know, with birdshot, if he shot at a distance, I mean, he's still going to be bleeding pretty extensively. But it's very different than a contact wound from a shotgun. But you, you have fabric that's going to be absorbing that blood and then possibly dripping that blood as Billy is being carried out of the house. So now you have, you know, dripped trail from inside the house, down the sidewalk, up until the time he's put in, in the back of whatever type of vehicle is transporting him to the morgue. So, yeah, less than ideal, but this is 1955, you know, so it's, it's just more of comparing and contrasting then versus now.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Tell me about the bedroom. What do you think about the bedroom and the blood there? And I can try to get more details about this photo.

[Paul Holes]

You know, the photo is quite grainy. And so to describe the photo, it's a photo from inside the bedroom with the photographer standing kind of on, on one side of the bedroom looking towards the bed. The bed is on the extreme left side of the photo. All I can see on the bed is basically the right side of the headboard, some pillows and some sheets. And then there's what appears to be two closet doors with a table and lamp on it near the bed. And then a chair in front of the other door. So the position of that furniture suggests that that closet is not accessed frequently by, you know, the, the residents. And then there's another chair that's tucked in the corner. And then to the right wall of the photographer, there's another door that looks like a door that would lead into a bathroom or into another bedroom or out hallway if that's the door that they're saying that the locking mechanism was shot out. I'm not seeing evidence of that in this photo. So I don't know if that's the front, if that's the actual door that would lead out of the bedroom or not. There appears to be like a desk or a table in the foreground to the right of the photographer. But in front of the two chairs across the room from the photographer on the floor. Floor is a Blood pool. And that blood pool just, you know, rough guesstimate is roughly, you know, 12 inches by 12 inches. You know, I mean, there's some, you know, irregularity to it. This appears to be a carpeted floor. And that even though that blood pool does not look very large in terms of its diameter on the carpet, in my experience, if you have something like a gunshot wound to the head and you have the victim laying there for a period of time, the blood pool itself isn't very large because the blood is going down into the padding underneath the carpet and then it spreads out like crazy in the padding. So once, you know, our practice often would be to once the body's removed and we've documented the carpeting under the body and the blood patterns, then we would cut that carpeting to see what was going on underneath, how much blood was under there. And oftentimes with shootings, there's potential bullets that have passed through the victim's body into the floor underneath the blood pool or surrounding area. So right now the blood pool is. That's all I can say about it. It shows location of where his, you know, his head was lying. Do you have a description of how his body was lying? Was where his feet positioned, where they're out in the hallway and this door has been closed after they removed the body or was he actually fully in the body bedroom?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is a, a sketch that looks like they're next door to each other with the hole in between. And this is the way they're portraying it.

[Paul Holes]

Okay, so what I'm looking at is a hand drawn sketch that is somewhat what I would kind of describe as not, not quite an exploded view of the house, but basically the house has been kind of cut in half top to bottom with the top being removed. And so from the front door, I can see where there is a hallway that leads back to where Ann and Billy's bedrooms are. And they're actually adjacent to each other, but separated by this long hallway that leads from the front door going towards the back of the house. And there appears to be an intersecting hallway with that long hallway which the bedroom doors for Anna, Billy's bedrooms are on. And those bedroom doors are literally right across the main hallway from each other. And so with that positioning of the bedrooms, they're now showing Ann holding a shotgun, standing right outside her bedroom door, and Billy in the process of collapsing after having been shot, but fully out of his bedroom in the hallway. That doesn't add up with the blood pool that is inside the bedroom.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. And now let me tell you a little bit about the autopsy because that might help you too. So this is what the autopsy says. The autopsy takes place the next morning at 11:15, nine hours after the shooting. The medical examiner says that one pin sized shotgun pellet killed Billy. It was shot into his brain. There were three other pellets he found inside his skull, but they had not been lethal. So what the ME says is based on where these pellets were and the injury to the brain, that Billy may have survived for about 15 minutes. So, so would that have been enough time for him to maybe go and bleed and then come back out? I don't even know what that would mean.

[Paul Holes]

Critical to this case is the fatal projectile. Why is a pathologist stating it's fatal? Is it because it's the one that penetrated into, let's say, a significant artery within the brain? And so now you have bleeding within the skull and that's what the pathologist is determined happening to be the cause of death or was there a structure that was hit? Let's say you have this pellet hitting his brainstem. You know, that's potentially going to be immediately fatal or at least immediately incapacitating in many instances. You know, so this comes from my perspective, this does come into trying to evaluate Billy's ability to move after being shot. You know, so let's say, say Anne is, is accurate in her statement and that's really what happened. She shot him out in the hallway as him just trying to get away from the shooter. He goes into the, the bedroom and collapses in there. And that could account for the evidence right now. I would say I, I can't say one way or another based off of that, you know, an observation at least with the, the initial information from the autopsy that in essence you only have three, three pellets that are penetrating the skull that would suggest that the shot was at a distance. I couldn't tell you how long, how far that distance is because I would need to see the pellet pattern, how much this bird shot had spread as it went down range. But if you have so few of this, hundreds of pellets that are coming at Billy, penetrating his skull, that seems like it's somewhat consistent with Ann's statement of seeing a man at the end of the hall and shooting, shooting him. So these pellets have lost energy during flight before they impact Billy.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, so I have information that says the shotgun blast left wadding from the shell in the victim's chest, which the M.E. says didn't hurt him. Does that indicate close or far away? Because I'll tell you, there is a ballistics expert who is a lieutenant with Nassau county, and he says that he believes that the shots were fired at a close range and not far away. So, you know, that would be contradictory

[Paul Holes]

to her story, but, yeah, so, yeah, the wadding. So when these, you know, this shot, this bird shot, is packed inside the shell, it is, in essence, you have this. And it depends on the manufacturer, but I will say it's almost like this fibrous circular pad that matches the diameter of the inside of the shot shell. That is a kind of a buffer between the bird shot and the gunpowder. And so it actually is a projectile and comes out of the end of the shotgun. But because of its size and its low density, once it hits the air at velocity, it slows down rapidly. So we will typically find wadding from shotgun gun shootings, you know, relatively close to where the shooter was standing, you know, a little ways down range. And it varies on, you know, the gauge of the shotgun, the type of ammo, and, you know, the. The material of the wadding. But I would say if this wadding penetrated into Billy's chest. So earlier, I think you described that Billy had shot patterns to his. His neck and head concentrated on his

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

face, and his head is what they say said the right side of his face and his neck are speckled with bird shot. His cheek is a bloody pulp. His ear is torn. His eye is badly wounded.

[Paul Holes]

But you. You have wadding that has penetrated the chest. That I would agree with that. That second expert is that would suggest a reasonably close distance, possibly 5, 10ft away. Yeah, and that's a rough, rough guess. But I've got wadi, you know, penetrating a bedroom door and an officer involved shooting. And I know that distance was probably, you know, 10, 8, 10ft away. So it's still traveling with some energy, you know, 8, 10ft away. But, you know, my observation earlier of a few pellets penetrating the skull, if you have the wadding going into the chest and it's a close enough distance, I would think that that entry wound for the wadding would be also surrounded by a pellet pattern. Pattern, you know, and maybe there's more pellets, and it could be denser in the neck area or the head area. But I. That's where that. That's what I'm trying to figure out is what is the spread of the. The pellets, because that's what we use for distance determination on Shotguns. So if we measure the spread, we can take that shotgun out with the same ammo and shoot it at different distances to try to see which distance replicates the spread that we're seeing on the victim or at the crime crime scene.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay. I told you. The handle was blasted on the wall of the bedroom behind his body. There's scattered shot that measures 2ft wide. There is also no gunpowder burns on his body, so they think that the shooter was at least 15ft away. And they said that they recover wads of brown shotgun cartridge paper. Now, I had read on a separate document that it was in his chest, but they just said recovery. So there's no blood anywhere else in the house except this one space.

[Paul Holes]

So the, the 12 foot spread of the pellet pattern is on the rear wall of the bedroom. You know, so that's, those are pellets that didn't strike him and continue downrange. And so of course, they have an opportunity to continue to spread after they pass Billy's body. So the, the important pellet pattern, what is the pellet spread on the injuries of Billy himself? So that's the distance that we have an interest in now with what you're saying. Okay, no, they're not seeing gunpowder, they're not seeing suiting from firearms discharge on his body. So that rules out, you know, pretty much that this was not a clo. What we'd consider a close range shot.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay.

[Paul Holes]

But the, the, the amount of damage the, to his injuries, his ear, his cheek, his eye. It sounds like this sounds like you still have a fairly concentrated pattern of pellets at the time or grouping of pellets at the time that he is struck. And you also have his body being impacted by the wads. So that seems to be consistent with what I would consider or call an intermediate range. But that can vary dramatically based on the gut gun and the ammunition. However, at least with my understanding of the observations with Billy's injuries and the firearms evidence, it could be consistent with Ann's story about the distance she fired the shotgun and struck Billy. Okay, Right now, I don't think I can refute Ann's statement on the actual firing of the shotgun. Now, the positioning of his body, you know, that's, that's important in this case. And it appears that he is likely right outside the bedroom door when he's shot or is able to take a few steps back towards the bedroom and then collapses where his bleeding injuries are, creating that blood pool inside the bedroom. Yet his feet, his lower body is, you know, Sticking out into the hallway through the bedroom door.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Now if you go back and look at that photo I showed you of the bedroom, does it make sense? Now there's a closed door that we presume is the entrance to the bedroom on the right hand side.

[Paul Holes]

Yeah.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So his head is laying where the blood pool is. He is. The rest of his body is sticking out into the hallway. This looks like a decent sized bedroom. So it makes sense for the birdshot to go all the way to the back wall, which we can't see on the left hand side of the photo. Is that.

[Paul Holes]

That's correct.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Does that make sense?

[Paul Holes]

Okay, that's correct. And, and obviously this, you know, there's been an alteration. The bedroom door. The body's been removed. The bedroom door has been closed at the time this, this photograph has been taken. You know, right now, you know, my concern is the information that the, the door mechanism had been shot. And at least in this photo, I mean, the, the door handle looks completely intact. The locking mechanism underneath the door handle looks intact. I'm not seeing any damage to the door or the door frame that I would expect from a close range shotgun blast because that's going to cause wood to splinter and be blown into the bedroom. And none of that is present. So I don't think that's accurate information. And this is where if Ann is making that statement as her initial statement, that is inconsistent.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay.

[Paul Holes]

You know, the, so it, that's kind of my focus now on trying to corroborate or refutes Anne's initial statement. Also giving her the benefit of the doubt of, you know, the, the trauma that she has just experienced from shooting Billy. Whether it was intentional or whether, whether it was accidental, she's still going to be traumatized by that.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, one more ballistics thing. So apparently, I mean, she was a hunter. She had taken this particular gun to a wild boar hunt in the Western Alps the year before. Her gun had been custom fitted to her body with a 25 inch. It's a 25 inch barrel with gold leaf inlay. Does that make any kind of a difference? Don't make fun. Does that make any kind of a difference?

[Paul Holes]

No. You know, I, the, you know, the gold leaf inlay is just purely decorative. It's not going to, you know, affect the functionality or the ballistics, you know, related to this particular shotgun. Now, as far as a 25 inch barrel, you know, this is now getting into the realm of where I would say you got to consult with a firearms expert because I don't know the length of the standard barrel for this type of shotgun. Shotgun barrels can be choked. You know, they. They can be altered, and that will alter the, you know, the pellet distribution pattern, you know, so at this point, I think that's probably the only detail. The, you know, the 25 inches that is radically different from, let's say, the standard make and model of shotgun used. Then that's going to be something that has to be taken into account when you're evaluating the, you know, the firearms discharge evidence as well as the pellet pattern. There's a reason why we use the actual gun that was used in the shooting when we do distance determination because of these types of modifications that can completely alter, or I would say, at least significantly alter the evidence from, let's say, on a shotgun, the pellet pattern.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So we have gotten through the autopsy report, the ballistics report, the basics of what Ann Woodward says happened and how the Woodwards spent their night before Billy Woodward ends up dead in 1955. So I have to leave it here because their relationship, plus another very, very viable suspect are gonna take up a whole other episode. So you're gonna have to wait another week and think about all of this evidence because this is a. Did she kill him accidentally or did she do it on purpose? Or door number three, did somebody else do it?

[Paul Holes]

No. I think it's interesting. I probably am walking back a little bit on accusing Ann of lying with her initial statement, but I still have concerns with her based on the forensic evidence so far.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, well, hopefully I'll have information that will enlighten you on all different matters with this case.

[Paul Holes]

All right, well, I'm looking forward to it.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, see you in a week.

[Paul Holes]

Thanks, Kate.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Thanks. This has been an exactly right production

[Paul Holes]

for our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com buriedbones sources, our senior producer

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

and is Alexis Amorosi.

[Paul Holes]

Research by Alison Trouble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

[Paul Holes]

Our theme song is by Tom Breyfogel.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

[Paul Holes]

Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook. Buriedbonespod.

[Paul Holes]

Kate's most recent book, all that Is Wicked, A Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to Decode the Criminal Mind, is available now.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And Paul's bestselling memoir, Unmasked My Life Solving America's Cold Cases, is also available now.

[Paul Holes]

Listen to Barry bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.