Turn Back the Page: The Three Emmas

Summary

---

Buried Bones: "Turn Back the Page – The Three Emmas"

Podcast: Buried Bones
Hosts: Kate Winkler Dawson (journalist), Paul Holes (retired cold case investigator)
Release Date: December 31, 2025
Episode Theme:
This compelling episode delves into a scandalous 1914 San Antonio murder case involving a wealthy German brewer, Otto Koehler, his invalid wife Emma, and two young German nurses—both also named Emma (nicknamed Emmy and Hedda). Through an engaging mix of historical color and forensic curiosity, Kate and Paul unpack the tangled relationships, the sensational murder, and the women who survived—and possibly orchestrated—Otto's demise.

---

Main Theme & Purpose

The episode explores early 20th-century gender, power, and scandal in Texas, dissecting how a love triangle (or quadrangle) among wealthy brewer Otto Koehler, his bedridden wife, and two nurses (all three women named Emma) culminated in a notorious murder. Kate presents the story through a lens of victimology, while Paul weighs in with modern forensic perspectives, pondering the veracity of self-defense claims and the challenges of reconstructing “he said/she said” crimes with scant evidence.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Evolution of Forensics – A Modern Lens

[04:10–07:43]

• Forensic Advancements: Paul discusses the progression of forensic disciplines: DNA analysis, the role of genealogy (notably post-Golden State Killer), and the increasing role of AI in automating evidence assessment and reducing bias.
• Evidence Preservation: Kate asks if there’s a movement to preserve old biological evidence. Paul notes some progress, especially in California post-1983, but clarifies the logistic and bureaucratic obstacles to widespread proper storage of bulky or aged items.

"The advancement over the last six years has been with the technology to be able to detect very, very minute amounts of DNA, even if it's highly, highly degraded."
— Paul Holes (05:45)

---

2. Setting the Scene: San Antonio in the 1910s

[14:36–16:26]

• Colorful Context: San Antonio circa 1914 was Texas’ largest, a true melting pot post-Mexican Revolution, with significant German and diverse immigrant communities—and plenty of tension.
• Koehler Family Profile: Otto Koehler, German immigrant and “multi-millionaire” brewer of Pearl Beer, and his wife Emma are introduced as the case’s central figures.

“San Antonio is the biggest city in the state in this time period … wonderfully diverse … It almost feels like Gilded Age Manhattan.”
— Kate Winkler Dawson (14:46)

---

3. The Three Emmas: Love, Transaction, Betrayal

[18:32–29:35]

• Emma (wife): Involved in a serious, possibly car-related, accident around 1910 and becomes bedridden.
• Emmy (first nurse): Hired to care for Emma; the relationship with Otto turns romantic and transactional. He buys her a house nearby and engages in an affair.
• Hedda (second nurse): Hired as Emmy’s roommate; also becomes Otto’s lover, with the affair understood and agreed upon by all.
• Transactional Triangle: Emmy and Hedda share a home deeded by Otto and receive stipends in exchange for companionship and care. Both women are young, attractive German nurses, creating a complex web of loyalty and potential for jealousy.

“He deeds the small house to both of these women … and in return ... Otto is able to drop by once a week or so for two or three hours for whatever he wants to do.”
— Kate Winkler Dawson (21:01)

---

4. Relationship Dynamics: Jealousy, Insecurity, and Desperation

[29:35–34:38]

• Emmy leaves: Emmy gets married and moves to St. Louis, prompting Otto to propose marriage (unsuccessfully) to Hedda to stabilize his arrangement.
• Otto’s Motivations: The hosts speculate on aging male anxieties, desire for stability, and unwillingness to lose control over his unusual domestic life.

“Otto ... may be feeling rejected ... It’s not necessarily like a, you know, I love you ... attachment to Emmy, but ... he could be a little bit upset.”
— Paul Holes (30:12)

---

5. The Murder: November 12, 1914

[35:02–39:51]

• The Setup: With Emmy visiting, Otto arrives at the house shared by Hedda and Emmy. Shortly after, three gunshots ring out.
• Victim Revealed: Otto is found shot three times (neck, under eye, chest) with Hedda kneeling beside him, her wrist slashed in an apparent suicide attempt.
• Immediate Aftermath: Hedda tells police, “I'm sorry, but I had to kill him.” Emmy corroborates the sequence. Two handguns are present (one Otto’s, one Hedda’s).
• Motive?: Was it self-defense, premeditated murder, or something else? The story is shaped only by the two surviving women’s testimony.

---

6. Self-Defense or Collusion? Forensic and Legal Analysis

[41:50–47:52]

• Competing Accounts: Both women claim Otto was the aggressor, choked Emmy, and threatened them with a gun, prompting Hedda to shoot in self-defense.
• Forensic Possibilities: Paul notes the case hinges on bullet trajectories, gunshot residue, and wound analysis—hardly robust in 1914, but vital questions all the same.

“Now we have to take a look at what Hedda is saying and what Emmy's saying ... But also take a look at the trajectories of the bullets ... do these trajectories ... line up with the statements that Hedda and Emmy are saying?”
— Paul Holes (42:40)

• Jury Concerns: The crucial legal question: Did Hedda shoot Otto again after he was down? Was her response excessive, or defensive?

---

7. Flight, Return, and Trial

[45:41–54:14]

• Hedda Flees, Then Returns: Before trial, Hedda flees to Germany, serving as a wartime nurse. Astonishingly, after two years she returns to face charges, resolute in her self-defense claim.

“She decides ... to go back to Texas because she wants to have a criminal trial ... and declare that this was self defense ... That seems like an awful idea. Why not stay in Germany?”
— Kate Winkler Dawson (45:44)

• Courtroom Drama: Hedda’s testimony commands sympathy; courtroom spectators reportedly weep, and applause breaks out during recess. Emmy's story matches Hedda’s. Paul notes this emotional impact and lack of alternative motive (e.g., insurance).

---

8. Resolution & Aftermath

[54:14–57:58]

• Verdict: Hedda is acquitted—found to have acted in self-defense.
• Postscript:
  • Hedda sues Otto’s family for $20,000, claiming a promised payment.
  • Notably, Hedda marries one of the jurors after her acquittal.
  • Emma (the wife) recovers, takes over and saves the brewery through Prohibition and Depression, later selling it to Pabst.
  • The site is now San Antonio’s Pearl District, with the upscale Hotel Emma commemorating the story—including a signature cocktail: “The Three Emmas.”

“There is a world class hotel called the Hotel Emma ... and the saying goes that one [cocktail] is great, but three will kill you.”
— Kate Winkler Dawson (58:11)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I need you to think like a man. I don't want you to think like Mr. Investigator. Think like a guy.”
  — Kate (29:35)
• “Even though you indicated that this isn't a forensics case, the reality is ... physical evidence needs to at least be assessed ... is somebody lying.”
  — Paul (56:09)
• “I agree with you ... the feeling is if you're going off instinct, the feeling was self defense. I don't know what was going through Otto's mind.”
  — Kate (58:47)
• “One is great, but three will kill you.” (about the signature drink)
  — Kate (58:41)

---

Important Segment Timestamps

• 04:10–07:43 Forensic evolution and evidence preservation in old cases
• 14:36–16:26 San Antonio’s context and the Koehler family
• 18:32–29:35 The love triangle unfolds, transactional dynamics
• 35:02–39:51 The murder - Otto’s death and initial statements
• 41:50–44:41 Legal and forensic breakdown of self-defense claims
• 45:41–47:52 Fleeing the country, surprising return for trial
• 54:14–58:47 Acquittal, civil suit, and post-murder legacy

---

Tone & Style

Conversational, witty, and thought-provoking—with Paul’s measured forensic logic balancing Kate’s narrative storytelling and sly asides about human nature (“I don’t know if they had love shacks in 1910, but ...”). The story is given both historic color and modern-day context, focusing on the ambiguity and emotional undercurrents at play.

---

Final Thoughts

This episode stands out for its rich characters, remarkable twists, and a nuanced look at women’s agency—and vulnerability—in a period drama ripe for both scandal and sympathy. Paul and Kate’s forensic-vs.-human-nature banter offers fresh perspective on the challenges of truth-finding in old crimes, while the tale’s legacy—immortalized in a hotel and cocktail—is a reminder of history’s enduring allure.

---

Transcript

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is exactly right. It's the coziest time of year on BritBox.

[Paul Holz]

That means curling up with a gripping.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Murder mystery, basking in a sumptuous period.

[Paul Holz]

Drama, or discovering a new hidden gem. See the holidays differently when you stream.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

The best of British TV with BritBox. Watch Britbox original series, including the new season of the award winning Belfast police drama Blue Lights. However you cozy this holiday, it's a bit warmer with Britbox. Watch with a free [e-mail] this is an ad by BetterHelp. Between the travel, the cooking and trying to find matching wrapping paper, the holidays can get intense. That's why BetterHelp is all about creating new, meaningful traditions, like setting aside time to talk to a therapist. Better Help works with fully qualified therapists who follow a strict code of conduct so you can trust you're getting professional ethical care. With over 30,000 therapists worldwide and more than 5 million people served, BetterHelp is one of the top online therapy platforms and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. I'm always reminded about how important it is to talk to someone with perspective. Not just my friends or family, but somebody who can actually help guide me. So that's why BetterHelp can help that this December, start a new tradition by taking care of you. Our listeners get 10% [e-mail] buriedbones that's better h lp.com buriedbones. So you're telling me that the AI that's meant to make everyone's job easier to manage just adds more to manage? On top of the thousands of apps the IT department already manages? Funny how that works. Any business can add AI. IBM helps you scale and manage AI to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to Business. IBM.

[Paul Holz]

Make their holiday unforgettable with a gift that says it all from Pandora Jewelry. A gift that tells the story and.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Shows you know theirs that doesn't just sparkle but speaks. From new festive charms to forever rings and personal engravings, this season, give a gift that's perfectly theirs.

[Paul Holz]

Whether you're shopping for a shiny surprise for your significant other, matching bracelets to celebrate your friendship, or a heartfelt gift for a family member. Say more this holiday season with Pandora. Shop [e-mail] or visit your closest Pandora store. Foreign.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the last 25 years writing about true crime.

[Paul Holz]

And I'm Paul Holz, a retired Cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes.

[Paul Holz]

And I weigh in. Using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens.

[Paul Holz]

Some are solved and some are cold. Very cold.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

This is buried bones. Hey, Paul.

[Paul Holz]

Hi, Kate. You're wearing your glasses today.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I know. My eyes were itchy and I just couldn't do the contacts today. Don't shame me, listeners. Sometimes I can't do it. So I was thinking about you in your white jacket role at othram, which I know you don't wear a white jacket when you're there, but that's how I picture you.

[Paul Holz]

Oh, geez.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And I wanted to ask you a little bit about what is the evolution of forensics? Where are we heading? I always keep thinking, oh, DNA is going to get better and better. DNA analysis will get more accurate. There has to be something sexier than that. And I know that evolving DNA and getting, getting better at the analysis of DNA is important, but is there anything else that you can talk to that is improving with time that we're going to be able to use to solve crimes?

[Paul Holz]

Well, you know, a lot of forensics over the years, you know, there has been somewhat of an evolution, no matter what type of forensic discipline that you're talking about, of course, God, it may have been even over a year. You know, we've talked about how some of the forensic sciences have, you know, sort of taken a backseat. They, in some instances, just been completely discredited, and others, the conclusions that could be drawn from them have been shown relatively weak. And then we're seeing today, you know, I think, of course, starting with Golden State Killer, sort of the huge revolution of the use of genealogy to solve cases. And that's something that is going to continue to move forward. The reality is, is that the types of samples that you deal with from cases, whether they're collected at a crime scene or collected from the victim's body, are often very poor samples. And so really, a lot of the. The advancement over the last six years has been with the technology to be able to detect very, very minute amounts of DNA, even if it's highly, highly degraded. And so that's where some cases where you think we just don't have anything today, we have the tools to be able to at least generate the DNA profile. I think across the board, the computerization that has occurred over the course of the last three decades or so, that's also been contributing to the advancement of these various scientific disciplines. And of course, the utilization of artificial intelligence AI is something that I think is inescapable to be applied to select aspects of forensics as we move forward. Whether that is helping automate the genealogy process or it's helping to put objective assessments of comparative sciences and remove sort of the human bias, you know, that might be present. And I could kind of see where there may be movement that's not around the corner, but it may be here sooner than later as time goes on. Of course, just. You can't talk about forensics without including high tech. You know, I was on the early forefront of high tech doing kind of a very rudimentary form of that back in the late 1990s, and then had a criminalist assigned to the FBI's RCFL, their regional computer forensic laboratory. And it just happened to be the Silicon Valley site there in the Bay Area. And I had started that back in the mid-2000s, you know, and it's. It's just recognizing that the pervasive aspect of technology in our lives is a form of physical evidence. It's not just the data, but it's the hardware. And as time goes on, you know, the public laboratories and the public, you know, the law enforcement investigators, they're just going to get better and better tools to be able to utilize that type of evidence to help solve cases.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I had wondered, will there ever be a movement to go through and correctly preserve evidence that is X number of years old in cold case files across the country? Because, you know, you and I talk about, oh, there probably is biological evidence in this case from 1930 or something, particularly like a sexual assault case, but lord knows how it's been preserved. Is there any kind of an idea that this might be a good idea to go and, like, correctly preserve this, not go through and run DNA on everything, but at least preserve it so that if money becomes available to these different departments, that it would be, you know, preserved correctly?

[Paul Holz]

Well, in many instances that has happened, okay. You know, departments as they've, you know, improved their property storage, improve their property management, they've expanded their freezer storage, and the known biological evidence is being put into freezers. Now, this is not universal. And in California, we had a case law, people versus nation, like 1981, 83 timeframe, which in essence mandated law enforcement to start preserving biological evidence in a proper way in terms of how it's packaged as well as being in a refrigerated or frozen state. So California, that's been going on for some time and that mandated departments large and small to start buying freezers and start putting their evidence in there. Now there are departments that have gone, you know, they get a cold case investigator and he or she ends up going through the evidence and now is saying, oh, this evidence, a sexual assault kit that's been, you know, sitting out here at room temperature, you know, for years, needs to go into a freezer. That type of thing does happen from time to time. But I can think of, even with my old department, there's old, old cases, homicide cases in which there's bulky evidence, things like clothing, jackets, mattresses, pillows, sheets, that if they were to try to put that into a freezer, they would rapidly run out of freezer space. Yet those items could have biological, that could solve the case. So you're kind of, you're kind of stuck because you can't realistically, in the public sector buy a walk in freezer the size of a huge warehouse to store all your bulky items in a frozen state to preserve what might be present on there.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It's the coziest time of year on Britbox.

[Paul Holz]

That means curling up with a gripping.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Murder mystery, basking in a sumptuous period.

[Paul Holz]

Drama, or discovering a new hidden gem. See the holidays differently when you stream.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

The best of British TV with BritBox. Watch Britbox original series including the new season of the award winning Belfast police drama Blue Lights. However you cozy this holiday, it's a bit warmer with Britbox. Watch with a free [e-mail] hi, I'm Martine Hackett, host of Untold Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a production from Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenics. This season we're sharing powerful stories of resilience from people living with MG and cidp. Our hope is to inspire, educate and remind each other that even in the toughest moments, we're not alone. We'll hear from people like Corbin Whittington. After being diagnosed with both CIDP and dilated cardiomyopathy, he found incredible strength through community. So when we talk community, we're talking.

[Paul Holz]

About an entire ecosystem, ecosystem surrounding this condition, including, of course, the patients at.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

The center that are all trying to live life in the moment, live life.

[Paul Holz]

For the future, but then also create a new future.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Listen to untold life with a severe autoimmune condition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, audiobook lovers. This week on the podcast I'M sitting down with musician, producer, and walking encyclop encyclopedia Questlove. We're talking about Mark Ronson's memoir, Night how to be a DJ in 90s New York City. All right, like we talked about before, Mark Ronson found sanctuary in the DJ booth. What's a tool or piece of equipment in the studio or on stage that.

[Paul Holz]

Gives you the most control?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So I have two microphones on stage. We have the microphone that you hear as the audience. Then we have a second microphone in.

[Paul Holz]

Which we communicate with each other. I feel like that second microphone kind of saved all of our friendships. No band likes each other after 20 years or 25 years. The Beatles broke up in seven and.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

A half years, and we're going on 35. Listen to earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts. So you're telling me that the AI that's meant to make everyone's job easier to manage just adds more to manage on top of the thousands of apps the IT department already manages? Funny how that works. Any business can add AI. IBM helps you scale and manage AI to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to Business IBM. Well, I wanted to get you talking about forensics, because we have virtually no forensics in this story.

[Paul Holz]

That was a bait and switch.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, I wanted to get it over with because I know you missed the forensics part of this, and this is all victimology. And really what I'm going to try to do is see as we move along, who is the likely victim and who is the likely killer in this scenario, in what I feel like is a very complicated situation between several people, I will tell you, this is a story of three Emmas.

[Paul Holz]

Uh.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Oh, you getting your pencil out?

[Paul Holz]

I have to write this down. Emma 1, Emma 2, and Emma 3.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Huh? Hey, that's what Maren did. Yes. And instead, because I don't want to drive myself crazy with Emma 1, Emma 2, and Emma 3, it turns out that two out of the three Emmas actually had nicknames, so we're gonna go with their nicknames. So I just wanted you to know that these are all three women named Emma, and they are at the center of a really nasty story. So let's go take a trip down to the great state of Texas where I live, and let's set the scene. San Antonio. You know San Antonio, right?

[Paul Holz]

I do, actually. I lived there from fifth through the seventh grade.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Okay, so this is 1910s, San Antonio. And this happens in 1914. San Antonio is the biggest city in the state in this time period, in the decade of the 1910s, the city is really exploding with its population and the residents are wonderfully diverse. The US Military has opened flight training centers around this time period. And there's an influx of pilots in San Antonio and a lot of them go on to serve in World War I, which will happen in just a few years. And on top of that, there is a great community made up of various cultures. On the heels of the Mexican Revolution, we have a lot of Mexican immigrants in the city and there's a strong European presence, large German population, a growing number of black residents also. So this is. I hate using the term melting pot because it feels generic, but this really is a lot of people. It almost feels like Gilded Age Manhattan to me, where there are a lot of people living in a place, big city, but also closely together at the same time, which, as we know, can be wonderful and it can also be tension filled. And we've had those stories too.

[Paul Holz]

Sure. You know, when you mentioned German population, all of a sudden I just had memories rush back into my head about. I think it was called the Beer Fest. Is. Is that.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, it's a, like, worst fest. Yes, for sure.

[Paul Holz]

You know, and going down there and enjoying the German food and, you know, as a kid, it was probably just their bratwurst or whatever it was, but, you know, it was good.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You have just. I don't know how you do this every time. You have just foreshadowed this story just with the two things, beer and German.

[Paul Holz]

You did it well, there you go. Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

The main family that we're talking about is the Koehler family, and it's spelled K O E H L E R. And the patriarch is Otto. He is a German immigrant. He and his wife Emma live in San Antonio and they are multi millionaires. We've talked about millionaires over and over again. I feel like the last few stories we've done are on multimillionaires, but I think these are the first brewers that we've had on the show. Otto runs a brewery called the San Antonio Brewing association, which produces a beer that they've called Pearl Beer. And it's the largest, you know, brewery in Texas at the time. And Pearl now is like a multi use section of San Antonio. There's a great bookstore there. You know, it's this great, like, segment of San Antonio and you can go. And there's wonderful restaurants and stuff. So I was familiar with Pearl when I read the story. I Did not know the origin of the story. So Otto Kahler and his wife live in San Antonio. He runs this brewery. He is involved in mining and banking and real est and they have just a huge amount of money. Things take a turn in their family around 1910 and really the center of the story starts four years later. But this is important. His wife Emma is involved in a serious accident. And it sounds like it was a car accident, but I don't have any real confirmation of that. But she needs a caregiver. Otto winds up hiring a 20 something nurse from Germany to look after Emma. Her name is Emma. Her full name is Emma Doomke. But you know, we can call her Emmy. That's also a nickname. So we're gonna go with Emmy. So Emma, the wife is in a car accident and needs kind of full time care. So Otto wants to hire a nurse and he hires Emmy. Are you clear on this? Now we've got two Emmas, but it's really an Emma and an Emmy. Paul.

[Paul Holz]

Yep, I've got Emma. Emmy. Emma needs a caregiver, is the wife of Otto. And emmy is a 27 year old female. Who's the nurse that's going to care for Emma.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

20 something, but probably 27 is a pretty good choice, a pretty good estimation. So Emma and Emmy become close friends. But as I know what happens sometimes, Emmy and Otto have a romantic relationship behind Emma's back to a point where he even buys a small house for her that's not too far away from his house. The optics are pretty bad I think for Otto at this point. He has a lot of money, his wife is bedridden and he's having an affair with the nurse. Which is a story that's very old. I mean this happens.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah. And he has resources in order to be able to, you know, kind of set up a love shack.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah, bungalow. Love shack. I don't know if they had love shacks back in 1910, but there's like a love bungalow maybe, I don't know, little house, a little house around the corner. So Emmy decides that she needs a roommate. Another problem here. Her name is also Emma, but we're going with her nickname, which is Hedda. So Hedda Burgermeister. And she is an attractive blonde is how she's described in her early 30s. She is also German and she is a nurse. And so Otto hires her as an additional member of his wife's care team. So now we've got these two attractive women working with Emma. And Otto is very busy, of course. So I don't know why. I think in 1910 this would have never happened, but it does. The three of these people are now in a relationship. Hedda, the last nurse, Emmy, and then Otto, all behind Emma's back. They're all in a relationship that seems sort of more transactional than romantic. Transactional, I think, in meaning Otto is paying them and he gets to have sex with them, and that is that.

[Paul Holz]

And do you know, do Emmy and Hedda know that Otto is engaging with both of them?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Oh, yeah.

[Paul Holz]

Okay, for sure. So this is, this is open and understood.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Open and understood. He deeds the small house to both of these women, so now they're sharing the house and they own it. And he gives them a generous monthly stipend. And in return. This is the Houston Chronicle newspaper trying to be polite. In return, the Chronicle says that Otto is able to drop by once a week or so for two or three hours for whatever he wants to do. So he is able to have two girlfriends, he pays for a house and he's getting nursing care for his wife out of this. This does not seem like a good setup for something. I don't know how long this kind of a relationship can last. What do you think about all this? I mean, this is not a gr. You know, we're a true crime show. Somebody's dead here.

[Paul Holz]

Well, you know, I think, you know, this is where we get into this relationship. Otto, Emmy and Hedda. At some point, are there feelings that develop between Otto and Emmy or feelings that develop between Otto and Hedda or even Emmy and Hedda that can cause a level of jealousy with the others that are part of this triangle?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right.

[Paul Holz]

You know, I think just from, you know, a human nature aspect at some point that potentially could come into play, you know, and of course with those types of emotions can often breed a level of violence. So I'll see how this develops.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It's the coziest time of year on Britbox. That means making piping hot tea on a chilly day, wrapping yourself in something soft on the sofa and getting lost in a brilliant series. This holiday season, Britbox has you sorted with the best of British tv. Curl up with eyebrow raising mysteries on the cliffey English coast in the new season of Beyond Paradise. Escape to sweeping countryside manors where headline making scandal is just another Tuesday in outrageous. Or patrol the charged streets and criminal underbellies of Belfast in the new season of the BAFTA winning police drama Blue Lights. Britbox gives you the kind of entertainment that makes being home on a blustery day a true luxury. So however you Cozy. It's all a bit warmer with Britbox. See holidays differently when you stream the best of British TV with BritBox. Watch a free trial today at BritBox.com hi, I'm Martine Hackett, host of Untold Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, a production from Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenics. This season, we're sharing powerful stories of resilience from people living with MG and cidp. Our hope is to inspire, educate, and remind each other that even in the toughest moments, we're not alone. We'll hear from people like Corbin Whittington. After being diagnosed with both CIDP and dilated cardiomyopathy, he found incredible strength through community. So when we talk community, we're talking.

[Paul Holz]

About an entire ecosystem surrounding this condition, including, of course, the patients at the.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Center of that are all trying to live life in the moment, live life.

[Paul Holz]

For the future, but then also create a new future.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Listen to Untold Life with a Severe Autoimmune condition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Paul Holz]

Hey, everyone. Ed Helms here.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And hi, I'm Kal Penn, and we're.

[Paul Holz]

The hosts of Earsafe, the Audible, and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You know what?

[Paul Holz]

I can see you as Mr. Darcy.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You got a little Colin Firth.

[Paul Holz]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that. But are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett here. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcast.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So you're telling me that the AI that's meant to make everyone's job easier to manage just adds more to manage on top of the thousands of apps the IT department already manages? Funny how that works. Any business can add AI. IBM helps you scale and manage AI to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to Business IBM. I'm going to show you a photo first of Otto and Emma, his wife. I mean, is this guy on the right who you're picturing having two girlfriends around the corner from his wife who was bedridden?

[Paul Holz]

Well, you know, that photo makes him look very distinguished and wealthy, you know, so I could see where, you know, two younger women could potentially, whether or not they find him the most physically attractive man, but most certainly his status, if you want to put it that way, may increase their draw to him. His wife, Emma, she looks, I mean, she looks close to elderly. She looks like a grandma in that photo.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

She does, yeah.

[Paul Holz]

But then I take it this is Emmy and Hedda.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So Hedda's in the upper left and Emmy's in the center. And I have not told you yet what's happening with any of these people, but obviously there's a pretty big difference between these two young women and his wife. I feel like I just continue to be surprised by this sort of scandalous thing happening in 1910, which is silly, scandalous things happened so far back. But I just felt like this was a little surprising to me for some reason. But let's go through this. So this arrangement seems to be fine. This happens for at least a few years. So he is paying them to take care of his wife. He is paying them to basically be able to have sex with them a couple of times a week, it sounds like. And they own a house that he's given them. I don't know, I mean, a couple of years, that's a long time.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah, but over the course of years, I mean, you have, you know, just in relationships, the early part of the relationship is what we often refer to as the honeymoon period. Right. You know, everybody's feeling good, emotions are high, you're in love. Who knows with Otto and Emmy and Hedda, if love is even a factor in this, as you mentioned earlier, this may be strictly transactional on both sides. They're benefiting through financial assets. They've gotten a house, he's giving them a stipend, they're steadily employed. He's benefiting, he's got these younger women that he's able to come over and have sex with. And you know, it may be just that, but also, you know, jealousy's emotions can develop, you know, and it may not necessarily be somebody falls in love with somebody else. It may be where now maybe Emmy is thinking that Hedda is getting more of Otto's financial attention and now gets upset about that or vice versa. You know, different things can happen over the course as the honeymoon period fades and now the other things are being looked at and some things go stale. And you know, it's just, this is all part of any relationship.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

We're Talking about a 55 year old man who is involved with a woman in her 30s and then a woman, a woman in her 20s. Now things get a little complicated and you could tell me, based on everybody's reactions, what you think this means. Everything seems to go okay, as far as we can tell, for a couple of years with this arrangement. It doesn't sound like Emma. The wife knows they have a really big house. Still, he's so safe that he puts these two women in a separate house to make sure they aren't caught. Even though, no joke, this is a massive house. They probably could have had privacy anywhere. But I suppose he's being extra careful. A couple of years after this arrangement starts, Emmy, the very first nurse, tells Otto that she is getting married and she is dumping him. She has had enough. She gets married and becomes Emmy Dumpke Daushel, and she moves to St. Louis with her new husband, and we are in San Antonio. So she clears out. She leaves in response. Now, I need you to be a man.

[Paul Holz]

So I'm not a man until you tell me you need me to be a man.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

No, I need you to think like a man. I don't want you to think like Mr. Investigator. Think like a guy.

[Paul Holz]

Okay. He.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Otto, in response, decides to propose to Hedda, the second nurse. He is married to Emma still. She is alive. They've been married for two decades. It sounds like Otto might actually have more emotional stake in these relationships than the women do. Why would he do that? He's already married, and he proposed to stop her from leaving. Maybe.

[Paul Holz]

Well, it seems odd, but, you know, I kind of take a look. He's been in a relationship with Emmy, if you will. And then she obviously was seeing somebody to a point to where she developed emotions and was proposed to and agreed to marry this other man. And, you know, Otto may not have been completely clueless that this other man existed. So I can see where he felt some sort of attachment, but it's not necessarily like a, you know, I love you, I want to marry you type of attachment to Emmy. But in many ways, Otto may be feeling rejected, you know, because he's been coming over, he's been taking care of her financially, setting her up in the house, being employed. And then now she's like, nope, see ya. So I can see where he could be a little bit upset under those circumstances. I just don't see where. Okay, Emmy's out of the picture, and so that now frees him up to all of a sudden develop some deep emotional connection to Henna. I also, with. With his business savvy, if you will, I wonder if marrying Hedda would somehow. I mean, Hedda and Emmy share the deed on this residence. You Know, and is there a. Is there some sort of financial aspect that he's trying to protect, you know, by marrying Hedda? I don't know, but I'm not even sure how, during this era, how would the courts permit him to marry Hedda if he is still legally married to.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I don't think they would. And I think that a divorce is more. Well, certainly a divorce was more difficult in 1914 than it would have been, you know, now it would have been difficult. My mom and I were just talking about. It's not a great conversation to have, I guess, but about people who just go from relationship to relationship. They don't want to be alone and they don't want to break up their pattern. I wondered if he was so used to having one of those two women or both women available to him that he sort of freaked and didn't want to change anything. Probably somebody who has made that amount of money. And remember what I told you he did for a living? He was in banking and mining, real estate deals. He had this brewery. This is someone who was on a very specific schedule. I mean, he was accomplishing thing after thing. He had to stay organized. And I wonder if he thought with Emmy leaving, that maybe Hedda would fall in love with someone and leave and then would he ever find this relationship with, sorry to say, two hot young women ever again? Probably not. I mean, maybe he was desperate.

[Paul Holz]

No, I think that's. That's a fair way to. To look at it from a man's perspective, an aging man perspective. So here you go. I'm giving you a. A guy perspective, if you will. I mean, Otto is, in essence, my age, you know, so you look so.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Much younger, though, Paul, I have to say, 1914 was rough on men. I think he looks like he's in his six, in his mid to late 60s to me.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah. You know, and. And that's. Well, that's an interesting aspect. When you look at photos of individuals from this time frame, they look so much older than what their age actually is, you know, But I. I'm just thinking, you know, the insecurities as a guy when you get older, you know, and now it's like, oh, I am losing. I'm never going to get the chance again to have this type of relationship that Otto is obviously enjoying over the course of several years. And so maybe he is latching on to Hedda just to preserve that aspect.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I just. In 1914, don't see, quote unquote, proper women, professional women, like a nurse or something, being willing to do this. He gets to see them in the house. Maybe he gets to sneak a little, you know, nookie with him while they're in the house every once. It's very convenient for Otto. And when this is 50% of his resource here is left, I think he springs this question on Hedda. Now she says, hell no. And she sounds like very sweet. Actually, she sounds like a nice woman. She said, Mrs. Kaler is a sick woman and I would never leave her behind. Meaning, like, I would not go and marry you and let you ditch her when she's sick and helpless. She is not professing her love for Otto and saying, I really wish I could marry you. What she's saying is, this is not practical and this is to do to your wife. So she said no to him? She turned him down.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah, but, you know, but she still does have benefit by maintaining the financial relationship with Otto. And I'm wondering, even though she's saying, no, I don't want to marry you, is there still going to be this, for lack of a better term, conjugal aspect to their relationship, or is she just going, nope, I'm cutting you off completely from any type of physical interaction?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

No, that's the short answer. She is hopeful that he wants to continue this financial arrangement and he is happy to do it. Now we come to the time where we are going to have a killer and a victim and also trying to figure out, you know, what the motive is here. It's November 12th, 1914. Emmy is back. So now their little trio is complete. She wants to go visit Hedda. She's married, though, and Otto is slated to stop by Hedda's little house that same evening, like he does often. So this has, you know, continued on. It sounds like Otto was fine with not being able to marry her, but that, you know, as long as this arrangement continues, that he was happy. So some of the newspaper reports said that he owed Hedda some money. I don't know if that was just like her monthly allowance. I know she got an allowance and she got paid, but he was gonna stop by because of that and probably for sex. We don't know. So Emmy is home at her old house. Hedda is home and otto comes between 4 o' clock and 5 o'. Clock. Shortly after he arrives, there are three gunshots heard from the house. So neighbors rush over and locate who the victim is. At this point, this could be one of three people. I mean, I think the only one is who is safe in this scenario is Emma, the wife, who's at home in bed. But you've got the woman who left, who he might have feelings for, who dumped him. You've got the woman who turned down his marriage proposal. And then you have Otto, who clearly is a sleazy man, who is, you know, in hopes of controlling these women to a certain extent. So if you were a betting man, and I have no idea if you are, who would you think the victim is in this situation? Three shots.

[Paul Holz]

When you say who is the victim, I mean, is there a chance that there's victims? Maybe, you know, on one hand, like you say, three gunshots. I mean, I could see murder, suicide, Otto and Emmy. I could see murder, suicide, Otto and Hedda. You know, okay, if I were to bet. And part of this is just being, you know, the bias is Otto's the shooter and he could be taking both of these women out. There could be, as I mentioned before, the feeling of rejection with Emmy, there may be a financial aspect with her running off with this other man, but also possessing, you know, 50% of the property. He has Hedda just rejected him for marriage. And he may, may be deciding that, you know what, it's time that this comes to end. And if he feels that he can somehow get away with taking out both these women, that may his social status may preserve his financial assets as long as he gets away with the crime. I don't know. I think that's where I would lean. But I think, you know, in this dynamic, just about any permutation of a crime in terms of somebody ending up dead is possible.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, I like your guess. That's a good one. And I think that that makes sense. When the neighbors come after they hear the shots, they rush in and nobody's around until they get to Hedda's bedroom. Hedda is there, and Otto is the person who was murdered. He has been shot three times with a.32 caliber revolver. Hedda is discovered kneeling by Otto's body. She has a self inflicted cut to her wrist. So the suggestion is that she was trying to die by suicide. There is a bloody knife laying on the ground next to her and two handguns are nearby. She tells the police, I'm sorry, but I had to kill him. And this is where the story gets complicated. If you thought a love affair between two nurses who you're paying to come over a couple times a week and your wife is bedridden was not complicated enough, trying to figure out why she killed this man is more complicated.

[Paul Holz]

Huh? So right now this was a murder suicide where the suicide attempt Failed.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right. Hedda is immediately setting up a self defense defense here. So first, let me tell you about the bullets. According to reporting by the Associated Press, one bullet broke his neck, another penetrated the skull just below the left eye, and a third had entered his breast. It was a, I told you.32 caliber revolver. It was Hedda's gun. She carried a gun. And I did not know this, but many, many, the majority of women carried guns in this time period, which I don't know why I was surprised, but I was. Yet again, I'm surprised by one of our stories. So there's two guns. One is his and one is Hedda's.

[Paul Holz]

And where would he normally carry his gun?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

So it does not say where he got the gun from, but he had a gun, according to the women on him. And there's a gun there that doesn't belong to either of them. And they've identified that belongs to Otto.

[Paul Holz]

Okay, so when you say that Hedda is setting up a self defense, she's probably making statements that he came into the room, he drew the gun, and therefore she had to shoot him because he pointed the gun at her.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

It's a lot more physical than that. It's not that simple. There is the discussion of the argument, and he, they say, becomes physical with the two of them, these two women. And that's why it's self defense. And that's why she said to police, I'm sorry, but I had to kill him. So, you know, we can talk about what happens next. She is whisked off to a hospital because of the wrist wound and put under police supervision while her wounds are tended to. She makes a full recovery. Emmy, who was there, is put under surveillance, but she's never charged with any crime related to Otto's death. So it's really all focused on Hedda. According to the Houston Chronicle, the Kaler family told one of the newspapers that there had been a dispute over a bill that Hedda had submitted for Emma's care. Otto drove to the house to settle the matter. And this is from his family's point of view. When he and Hedda started arguing, she got frightened and went for her gun. That's kind of what Hedda says happened too. She says she killed him in self defense. She said that Otto had been apparently choking Emmy. Emmy says that she thought that Otto was gonna shoot her because he had a gun. I don't know at what point we can call it self defense or not when it's. The only two people who survived are saying that the victim is the one who was the aggressor. So how do you even sort something like that out?

[Paul Holz]

Well, this is, you know, in terms of trying to get. You have two living individuals in this crime, right? Otto can't make statements, but Emmy and Hedda can make statements. And of course, it is going to be depended upon. Was there any cooperation and agreements made between these two ahead of time? You know, was this a planned homicide? However, once investigators arrive on scene or once law enforcement arrives on scene, those two absolutely have to be separated and interviewed to. To try to determine, you know, or lock in their statements early. Early on. But I know, you know, we opened up this episode and saying, this isn't a forensics case. Oh, yes, it is.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Oh, okay.

[Paul Holz]

Because now we have to take a look at what Hedda is saying and what Emmy's saying, how, you know, things went down. But also take a look at the trajectories of the bullets. You know, where are they entering? Is there any indications of distance on these wounds? What is the flight path that these bullets took? And do these trajectories and all the other assorted firearms evidence line up with the statements that Hedda and Emmy are saying? So there is a forensics component that could say, hold on, you're saying you were standing over there and he's strangling Emmy, and so you took out your gun and shot him, or whatever the story is. Does that match up with the physical evidence? So that's where. If I'm looking at this case today, that's one of the things I would really be keying in on.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

One of the issues, I think, with this story also. I mean, besides that, I don't have some of the diagrams and everything that we're looking at here. We really just have people's words and their descriptions. What makes sense and what doesn't. So it sounds like some of the statements, I think this must have been Emmy say that that afternoon, Otto came in, rushed past Emmy in the living room, and headed straight to Hedda's bedroom. She was laying on the bed with a cloth covering her eyes. It sounds like he tried to kiss her and she got mad. He threatens her and pulls out a gun, and she shoots him with this.32 revolver. One of the things the prosecutor is going to talk about is how many shots she took, and did she shoot him when he was already on the ground? And I've heard that in other cases, too, that makes a difference. Right? Does that make a difference to jurors whether or not it seems like the person has been incapacitated and you continue shooting. Then it's like all of a sudden it's like, oh, no, that's not self defense. They were already on the ground. What are you doing? Of course not. This is malicious.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah. It all depends on the circumstances, you know, and I think you can make arguments in terms of, yes, you took it past self defense, you know, you've neutralized the threat. The person's down on the ground. However, you are likely dealing with a naive shooter. You don't know if you've neutralized the threat or not. And so now you continue to shoot. And it's not indicating that it wasn't initially, that the shooting itself wasn't initially started because of a self defense aspect, you know, so that's, it's almost like it's a, it's a follow through, if you will, you know, and that's, that's really, for prosecutors, the DAs, when they're assessing a case on how to charge the case, they are going to be assessing those types of human elements. But, you know, under that scenario where she's laying on the bed and he comes up to kiss her and they get mad, does she indicate while she's on the bed and while he's that close to her is when she shoots him?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

No. We're gonna have to take a tiny, tiny detour because she has shut up for now and she has been charged with murder. The twist is she takes off before the court date, she leaves and goes back to Germany and she's gone. I know Hedda. So listen to, I mean, these women. This is interesting. She is gone for it looks like at least two to three years. And because she's a nurse and It's World War I, she tends to wounded soldiers. During World War I, while she is on the run from murder charges in Texas, she decides inexplicably to go back to Texas because she wants to have a criminal trial and declare that this was self defense. And she wants to come back and she says, bring it on. I want to have a self defense case. Let's do it. That seems like an awful idea. Why not stay in Germany? I mean, I don't know. Well, maybe staying in Germany during World War I is not a great idea.

[Paul Holz]

That may be part of it, you know, getting to motive. Hedda loses so much by killing Otto. So from a planned homicide standpoint, there has to be some other mitigating factor for Hedda to go, I need to take him out. So absent any knowledge of any of that type of mitigating factor. You know, this is where. Okay, was this a self defense issue? I could see that from Hedda's standpoint, if Otto ended up becoming physically aggressive and. Or pulls the gun out during this argument, that would make sense. So it negates Hedda's reliance upon Otto's finances, you know, because she loses that when he's dead. Her coming all the way back, I mean, she's. I couldn't imagine extradition out of Germany from World War I. I don't think that's happening. She's untouchable over there. So she was free and clear. So for her to come back and in essence roll the dice at trial, you know, that tends to suggest to me that there's a level of truthfulness to what Hedda is saying happened.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, let's see what happens. She is rearrested. She is unwavering in her claim that she acted in self defense to protect her and Emmy, because Emmy was there too angry. He was aggressive. He was mad because Hedda said, don't kiss me for whatever reason. And she is on the stand, another reason she probably shouldn't have done this. She. She is on the stand, which I normally would not think is a good idea. But the DA says to Hedda, exactly what I had mentioned to you before. Did you shoot him on the floor after he was dead? I guess indicating we're, you know, this was passion and you were mad and you were aggressive. Not him. You were aggressive. She says, I don. I only know I shot him as he raised the pistol. I thought he would get me, and I shot him again. And then she says this, Paul. Then I raised the pistol to my head and pulled the trigger. And the DA says, how many times? And she says, I don't know. Obviously it didn't work. I guess she unloaded all the bullets. But he says, then later on, well, it sounds like you had better aim at Mr. Kaler than you did it yourself. To which I guess she couldn't say anything. So if we believe Hedda, she kills Otto and then she attempts to take her own life twice.

[Paul Holz]

That's with the gun as well as with this incisive injury to her wrist from the knife, right?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yep.

[Paul Holz]

So again, there's a forensic component to this. She's got a.32 revolver that she's putting to her head and pulling the trigger. She says, twice, Right. Depending on the make and model of gun. This is where, you know, getting a, a, A good firearms expert, sometimes you can see evidence that they're the cartridge, the round that is underneath the, the, the hammer at the time she pulls the trigger or the way it rotates when you pull the trigger on a revolver, it rotates the live round and then you'll see the hammer drop. And you potentially could have some evidence to show. Yes, you know, that round, you know, there was a, an attempt to fire that round based on maybe a very subtle firing pin or some other aspect. But this goes to when that gun is initially collected. It needs to be thoroughly documented as to. You have a cylinder and depending on the make and model, let's say six or six rounds. In this, the cylinder, do you have six light? Do you have, let's say in this, under her scenario, there's three shots to auto. Are there three expended rounds out of our 32? And then where are the other three rounds located at? Is there evidence that they potentially did have hammer strikes or firing pin strikes on them? You know, and that's all just part of what we do routinely in this day and age. Added a crime scene or if I've got the weapon back in the lab, I'm documenting all of that and unloading the weapon. And then that goes to a firearms examiner who then is able to start to ascertain, you know, what exactly are the dynamics that the physical evidence can answer her. Under the scenario of Hedda not remembering how many shots she fired or whether or not she remembered firing into him after he's laying down, that's not an unusual occurrence in this type of scenario. If this was truly a traumatic event for Hedda, she's doing this in self defense. Human memory is goofy. We see this all the time with officer involved shootings. When you talk to the shooting officer, when they're interviewing, they don't know the number of rounds they shot. Sometimes they put themselves in a different position out at the crime scene than what the body cam or other video footage shows. And this is just the normal aspect of how human memory captures things during this traumatic and very dynamic and very quick scenario.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, you know, let's talk about 1914. I've done stories in 1918 about a serial poisoner who no one believed would have actually murdered people. Just they could not believe it. And I think that the DA is in for an uphill battle here because the testimony that she gives on the stand is compelling. The Associated Press says that courtroom spectators openly wept during this testimony. So she sounds like she did a great job on the stand. There was a recess and she walked back to the stand to continue testifying. There's reportedly an outburst of clapping from the men and women packed into the courtro. The testimony that she gave seemed so compelling. It seemed like she really framed Otto as this monster and she was defending herself. And it sounds like Paul, everything you're saying kind of lines up with, why would she kill him? You know, this doesn't make any sense unless it was self defense.

[Paul Holz]

Sure. You know, but as I mentioned, is there other mitigating factors that existed or you haven't told me yet. And then what has Emmy said?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Emmy backs up everything. Everything that Hedda says, Emmy says happened. So this is a case where, you know, you have these two women who are saying the same thing, that Otto was the aggressive one and that they were both scared and she saved both of their lives. That is the opinion.

[Paul Holz]

Did Otto have a life insurance policy in which they were beneficiaries of?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Not that I know.

[Paul Holz]

Okay. I'm just, I'm just trying to look for some motive. If they, they planned this.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Well, let me tell you what ends up happening, and maybe this gives you any insight here. So I think everybody who's listening knows where this is probably going to go. The court in January of 1918 found that Hedda had acted in self defense. She is declared not guilty. She turns around and decides that she's going to sue his family for $20,000 because he promised her $20,000, which, by the way, is $630,000 today. I don't know if she received it. I doubt it. I don't know if that was a true claim or not, but she definitely had money on the mind. And she ends up marrying one of the jurors. What do you think about. I know those are two things I smacked you in the face with. Sorry.

[Paul Holz]

I'm not overly concerned about her turning around and doing the civil suit. She was fortunate in that, you know, they acquitted her of the murder charges. If she's truly innocent, she's been run through the wringer and is now going, hey, you guys traumatized me. You cost me my reputation, my financial earnings, whatever it is, you know, and, and that doesn't speak one way or another in my mind in terms of Hedda's, you know, if there, if there's anything suspicious now marrying the juror, you know, of course it, it comes down to when did they first interact? Were they doing goo goo eyes at each other during trial? You know, was there any observations that maybe there had been some relationship established? Because obviously, you know, that's where that juror should be dismissed and shouldn't be weighing in on guilt when it comes to Hedda, you know. So, you know, what is the story behind that?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I don't know. I wish I did. I know they moved back into her bungalow that Otto had deeded to them to both women. And I guess probably she paid Emmy off, you know, and so now she owns this house. I still think this sounded like self defense, but you never know. You've got three people, one of them's dead, and the other two have a very high interest in protecting each other.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah. You know, and that's. I think, the hardest thing to be able to tease out in this case is you do have Emmy and Hedda, who've. They're obviously got some sort of close relationship.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holz]

They're sharing the same man. They're getting the same financial resources from this guy. I kind of go back to, you know, what I said before is, is that, you know, here we have relationships and human nature occurring. Then we have a crime.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holz]

And we have a homicide. And even though you indicated that this isn't a forensics case, the reality is, because of the circumstances and the potential allegiance between the only two witnesses to this crime, one who's the defendant. This is where, you know, physical evidence needs to at least be assessed and to determine is somebody lying.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Right.

[Paul Holz]

But right now, I think I'm with you. I think Hedda was likely truthful. This was self defense. And the most notable thing about that is the fact that she came all the way back from Germany to stand trial.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Yeah.

[Paul Holz]

To clear her name, in essence. And that's where I go. Okay. She didn't have to do that.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

No. Well, let me tell you the ending of the story. I actually don't know what happens to Hedda and to Emmy. I'm assuming they go on, hopefully and have nice lives. Emma Kaler, the widow, recovers from this awful accident with the help of, I guess, her nurses. I don't know. She becomes a very sort of strong, ambitious woman. She's healthy enough to take over the brewery and keep it afloat through Prohibition and the Great Depression, which, I will tell you, was no easy feat. I'm sure she puts a lot of her own money into the brewery, and it becomes very, very successful. Eventually, she sells to Pabst, and around 2000, the company, the Pearl Brewery, shut down. But not long after that, a developer buys the property, like I told you before, and transforms it into this wonderful development that you have to see, I think, in San Antonio, known as the Pearl. And there is a. Well, I think you're gonna like this. There is a world class hotel called the Hotel Emma which opened in 2015.

[Paul Holz]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

And it has many of the original brewery features that make it feel very authentic. So now listen, you gotta let me get through this. You'll appreciate this. You can, if you go there, get a cocktail that honors all three EMMAs in one glass. Okay. Grapefruit juice, which is a Texas fruit, is the base. Then Emma number one, the wife who owned the brewery, gets represented with a pearl beer with rose syrup. Emmy, the first nurse is represented by Sherry and Hedda. The third is Jen. And the saying, this is funny, the saying goes that one is great, but three will kill you.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah, I was gonna say that's a hangover and waiting right there.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

I usually don't laugh at the end of murder stories, but I don't know. We don't know what happened in that house. We don't know what happened with those women. I agree with you. I feel like. Like the feeling is if you're going off instinct, the feeling was self defense. I don't know what was going through Otto's mind. I know that he thought money could control two women and it did for quite a while. I think probably the right outcome happened. And I'm glad that the pearl turned out to be as wonderful as it was. And I'm certainly glad that Emma, one of the victims in this circumstance, ended up recovering and became just an awesome businesswoman.

[Paul Holz]

Yeah. You know, I think I'm convinced. I'm going to go check out this pearl area in San Antonio one of these times. When I'm there, maybe I'll visit you in Austin and we can take a little road trip down to San Antonio.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Along with a designated driver if we're going to have the three Emmas.

[Paul Holz]

All right, folks, you heard that?

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Three Emmas all at once. One. One is great, but three will kill you. Okay, well, next week we will not have three Emma's. We could have one. I don't know, sometimes, probably every ninth episode, I think there's an Emma thrown in there. But we will definitely have another compelling story. Maybe in Texas. We have so many of those. Maybe in Colorado. But we will see.

[Paul Holz]

All right, well, again, looking forward to it.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Thanks. This has been an exactly right production.

[Paul Holz]

For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com buriedbones sources.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi.

[Paul Holz]

Research by Maren McLachen, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our mixing engineer is Ben Thompson Holiday.

[Paul Holz]

Our theme song is by Tom Breifogel.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac, executive.

[Paul Holz]

Produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook@ buriedbonespod.

[Paul Holz]

Kate's most recent book, all that Is A Gilded Age Story of Murder and the Race to Decode the Criminal Mind.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Is available now and Paul's best selling memoir, My Life Solving American As Cold Cases, is also available now. It's the coziest time of year on BritBox. That means making piping hot tea on a chilly day, wrapping yourself in something soft on the sofa, and getting lost in a brilliant series. This holiday season, Britbox has you sorted with the best of British tv. Curl up with eyebrow raising mysteries on the cliffy English coast in the new season of Beyond Paradise. Escape to sweeping countryside manors where headline making scandal is just another Tuesday in Outrageous. Or patrol the charged streets and criminal underbellies of Belfast in the new season of the BAFTA winning police drama Blue Lights. Britbox gives you the kind of entertainment that makes being home on a blustery day a true luxury. So however you cozy, it's all a bit warmer with Britbox. See holidays differently when you stream the best of British TV with BritBox. Watch a free trial today at BritBox.com hey audiobook lovers, I'm Cal Penn.

[Paul Holz]

I'm Ed Helms.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Ed and I are inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Hearsay. The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club Easter.

[Paul Holz]

Each week we sit down with your favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very special guests to discuss the latest and greatest audiobooks from audible.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Listen to Earsay on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow Earsay and start listening on the free iHeartradio app today at CVS. It matters that we're not just in your community, but that we're part of it. It matters that we're here for you when you need us, day or night. Night. And we want everyone to feel welcomed and rewarded. It matters that CVS is here to fill your prescriptions and here to fill your craving for a tasty and yeah, healthy snack. At cvs, we're proud to serve your community because we believe where you get your medicine matters. So Visit [e-mail] or just come by our store. We can't wait to meet you. Store hours vary by location with Venmo.

[Paul Holz]

Stash a taco in one hand and.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Ordering a ride in the other means.

[Paul Holz]

You'Re stacking cash back. Nice get up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash on your favorite brands when you pay with your Venmo debit card from takeout to ride shares, entertainment and more.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Pick a bundle with your go tos.

[Paul Holz]

And start earning cash back at those brands. Earn more cash when you do more with Stash. Venmo stash terms and exclusions apply.

[Kate Winkler Dawson]

Max $100 cash back per month.

[Paul Holz]

See terms at Venmo Me Stash terms.