Bowie, McCartney & Michael Jackson: How Songwriters Learned to Play Hardball

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Business History—Bowie, McCartney & Michael Jackson: How Songwriters Learned to Play Hardball
Host: Jacob Goldstein & Robert Smith (Pushkin Industries)
Release Date: March 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Jacob Goldstein and Robert Smith examine how American songwriters went from exploited workers to titans of industry by reshaping the business of music rights. They chart the rise of the ASCAP cartel, its eventual challenge by BMI, and how this led to the financialization of music catalogs, culminating in headline-grabbing moves by stars like Michael Jackson, Paul McCartney, and David Bowie. The story reveals the unexpected power struggles and business lessons at the dawn of intellectual property—and how songwriting became big money on Wall Street.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Problem of Intellectual Property for Songwriters (02:34–04:44)

• Early Exploitation: Songwriters in early 1900s America could own a copyright but still make very little money, as their songs were easily copied and played without compensation.
• Need for Power: Copyright law wasn't enough; enforcing ownership required collective action.

  “Just because you own something... doesn’t mean that you can necessarily make money off it... What you need is the power to protect your ownership.” —Robert Smith (02:34)

• Collective Solution: Songwriters sought to unite against establishments that freely used their work.

2. The Birth of ASCAP (04:47–09:40)

• Inspiration & Formation: Victor Herbert, a renowned composer, fights for his rights after hearing his song played unpaid in a restaurant, leading to a pivotal Supreme Court case.
• ASCAP’s Foundation: In 1914, songwriters—Irving Berlin, John Philip Sousa, and others—formed ASCAP (American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers) as a cartel to collectively enforce their rights and collect royalties.
• Litigation as Leverage: ASCAP's strategy was to threaten and pursue lawsuits, driving restaurants, dance halls, and later radio stations to pay licensing fees.

3. ASCAP’s Power & Exclusion (12:22–13:18)

• Membership Restrictions: Early ASCAP only admitted composers with pedigree, effectively excluding jazz, blues, and “hillbilly” (country) musicians—reflecting New York elitism.

  “It was New York thinking it was better than everybody else.” —Jacob Goldstein (12:55)

4. New Technology, New Battles: The Rise of Radio (13:18–16:13)

• ASCAP vs. Broadcasters: When radio arrived, ASCAP demanded stations pay for music even if played live in studio. Broadcasters argued the songs were incidental, but courts—and later the FCC—upheld ASCAP’s right to royalties.
• Cartel Overreach: As ASCAP’s demands escalated, their power grew monopolistic and exclusionary, setting the stage for rebellion.

5. The Gene Buck Era—Monopoly and Backlash (16:23–25:50)

• Leadership Shift: Gene Buck, an ambitious lyricist nicknamed “Mr. Broadway,” ran ASCAP with a ruthless approach.

• Royalty Hikes: Buck doubled license fees to 10% of radio revenue, angering broadcasters and state legislatures (who accused ASCAP of extortion).

• Legal Drama: Warrants for Buck’s arrest on extortion charges emerged in several states—a signal of just how hot the conflict had become.

  “Gene Buck is about to run ASCAP like the Godfather.” —Robert Smith (16:23)

6. BMI and Songwriting Integration (26:15–33:45)

• Birth of Broadcast Music, Inc. (BMI): Radio broadcasters, fed up with ASCAP’s muscle, formed a rival rights agency (BMI) focused on “excluded” genres: country, blues, R&B, gospel, and Latin music.

• Market Disruption: BMI’s alternative catalog, exemplified in stories like Amelia Earhart’s in-flight radio music (29:57), proved the American public wanted more than Broadway tunes.

• Showdown and Resolution: When ASCAP pulled its songs off the air (31:54), the public barely noticed thanks to BMI, forcing ASCAP to accept lower rates (2.75% revenue, down from 5–10%) and broadening the industry.

  “If you form a cartel, you better make sure that there’s not a substitute for what you’re selling.” —Jacob Goldstein (33:07) “The pie can get bigger... more songwriters, more revenues, more money for everyone.” —Robert Smith (34:08)

7. Financialization and the Superstar Era (38:06–51:28)

• Songs as Financial Assets: With ASCAP and BMI, copyright protections extended beyond lifetimes, transforming songs into high-yield, long-term “bonds.”

• Michael Jackson vs. Paul McCartney (40:53–44:49):

  • Jackson learned from McCartney the value of buying song catalogs and famously purchased the Beatles’ catalog (except “Penny Lane”) for $47.5 million.

    “Michael Jackson jokes, ‘Someday I should buy all of your music, Paul.’... At least McCartney thinks it’s a joke, but it’s no joke.” —Robert Smith (41:37) “Apparently Jackson said, ‘Oh, Paul, it’s just business.’” —Robert Smith (44:41)

• David Bowie—Bowie Bonds (45:54–49:49):

  • David Bowie packaged royalties from 287 songs into “Bowie Bonds,” raising $55 million without selling his copyrights. The model inspired future music-based securitizations, even if early investors suffered as digital piracy eroded returns.

    “You can check out anytime you like, but the royalties will never leave.” —Jacob Goldstein (39:51)

• Wall Street’s Entry:

  • Hedge funds and investors built portfolios of music rights (e.g., Hypnosis, Blackstone), investing billions. The system further enriched superstars, even as most musicians still struggled to make money from recordings.

    “A side effect of the financialization of music is that it makes superstars even more rich.” —Robert Smith (50:52)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Just because you own something, even with a patent or a copyright, it doesn't mean that you can necessarily make money off of it.”
  —Robert Smith (02:34)
• “If you form a cartel, you better make sure that there’s not a substitute for what you’re selling.”
  —Jacob Goldstein (33:07)
• “The pie can get bigger. More music, more songwriters, more revenues, more advertising, more money for everyone.”
  —Robert Smith (34:08)
• “You can check out anytime you like, but the royalties will never leave.”
  —Jacob Goldstein (39:51)
• “Apparently Jackson said, ‘Oh, Paul, it’s just business.’”
  —Robert Smith (44:41)
• “It also makes sense for these companies to spend more money promoting you, meaning that you're worth more and the securities are worth more and you'll make even more money.”
  —Robert Smith (50:54)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• The Roots of ASCAP: 02:34–09:40
• The Supreme Court Case: 09:41–12:00
• Exclusion and Cartel Behavior: 12:22–13:18, 21:49–22:37
• Radio and Legal Battles: 13:18–16:13, 22:37–24:03
• ASCAP vs. BMI Showdown: 25:50–33:45
• Michael Jackson and Catalog Buying: 40:07–44:49
• David Bowie and Financial Engineering: 45:54–49:49
• Wall Street Moves In: 49:49–51:28

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Tone & Style

• The episode is playful and witty, peppered with cultural references and deadpan asides.
• Hosts blend storytelling with economic analysis, often poking fun at the seriousness or hubris of their subjects.
• They offer a behind-the-scenes look at industry evolution, cultural change, and business strategy in accessible language.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode tells the story of how American songwriters transformed from underpaid artists into powerful business operators by collectively bargaining for their rights, creating an enduring business structure that transformed music into a valuable, tradeable asset. It shows how technological shifts (radio, records, digital media) forced new industry alliances, and how copyright battles birthed both innovation and exploitation. Ultimately, it’s a tale of creative labor, big money, cultural change—and what happens when songs become as much about shrewd business as about art.

Transcript

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[Robert Smith]

Pushkin too quick?

[Jacob Goldstein]

No, it was perfect.

[Robert Smith]

Push kit.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Stop. You got it.

[Robert Smith]

Just because you own something, even with a patent or a copyright, it doesn't mean that you can necessarily make money off of it, profit off of it. Because what you need is the power to protect your ownership. Protect the thing you own from the people who want to take it. This is a lesson that the songwriters of the United States of America learned about 100 years ago, in the early 1900s, you could get famous writing a hit song, you could own that song, and you would still be poor. Songwriters were mostly employees or contractors handing over their work for just a few bucks. But that all changed when the meek and talented songwriters of this country, guys who tinkled pianos all day long, they banded together and decided to play hardball. The songwriters adopted mafia like tactics, and they held music in America hostage until everyone agreed to pay them what they were owed and more. I'm Robert Smith.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Jacob and I'm Jacob Goldstein. This is Business History, a show about the history of business.

[Robert Smith]

The funny thing is that music is designed to be copied. The whole point is you want to play it again and again by different people. You know, you hear the song, you join in singing, you listen once, you can hum it back. But the problem, of course, is if something can be easily copied, it's hard to make sure that the owner gets paid.

[Jacob Goldstein]

This problem that the songwriters were trying to solve is a big. It's a big idea problem. It's a problem for anyone who owns intellectual property, whether that's software or a podcast. You make a thing, you technically own it, but it's easy to copy. How do you get paid? How do you control, really control your intellectual property?

[Robert Smith]

There is copyright protection, and there was so in the early 1900s. But songwriters realized that that protection wasn't enough. They needed power. They needed to band together. They created an industry group so powerful that it persists to this day. And the system they built ended up making songwriting so valuable, it created billionaire musicians and brought Wall street calling.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Da dum da dum dum dum dum Boom.

[Robert Smith]

The songwriter's revolution starts. Jacob In 1913, a composer named Victor Herbert, he's feeling a little peckish, walks into a restaurant in Times Square called Shanley's. Now, Times Square, Shanley's was one of those places to see and be seen. Very famous clientele known for their lobsters. In 1913, and there's a band playing in the corner. You know, it's just a raucous, fun atmosphere. And Herbert at this time is a pretty big deal. He gets a good table. He's helped take American theater from sort of vaudeville shows to the story based musicals that we hear today. He wrote the musical Babes in Toyland in 1903. And so Herbert's eating lobster or whatever, right? And then he hears it. The band starts playing a song from a new Broadway show called Sweethearts.

[Jacob Goldstein]

We've actually brought in our own piano player today. Pushkin's own, Ben Nadif.

[Robert Smith]

Victor Herbert is sitting at his table, and he knows this song because he wrote it. It's his. And last time he checked, he was not getting a cut of any of that sweet Shanley's lobster money.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Thanks, Ben.

[Robert Smith]

So after his meal, Herbert calls up Shanley, the owner, and he informs him that, you know, copyrights do exist, even in 1913, and I own the copyright on the song, so I need to be paid, Herbert says, for the performance of my music. And Shanley disagrees. I don't know, maybe he's in a bad mood. He could have just given a few bucks. But he says, you know what? We haven't charged admission to the restaurant. It's not a performance in a concert hall. It's just playing in the background while people eat. We can play whatever we want in the background. It's immaterial.

[Jacob Goldstein]

But think about it from Herbert's point of view. This is this moment in the early 20th century when the country is urbanizing, people are moving to cities and it's getting richer. People have more leisure time, they're going out more. So there are more and more of these places, places where people are paying to whatever, eat dinner. And in the background, somebody's playing copyrighted music.

[Robert Smith]

And it is expected at this point that you would have what are now known as hit songs. There weren't really hit songs before this. This is before the radio and really when phonographs are starting. So the hit songs were the songs you saw on Broadway or that you saw when you went to Shanley's.

[Jacob Goldstein]

If you're Herbert, like, it seems good that there's a hit song and it's your hit song and everybody's playing it and. But now you want to get paid. And it's never going to be worth your time to try and figure out if a piano player is playing your song in some random restaurant or bar, right?

[Robert Smith]

Impossible to know.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Impossible to know. And there's this useful idea here, which is the collective action problem, right? Like, think of all the composers, all of the Herberts, writing songs. Like, if there were some way they could all get together and act, they could maybe figure out a way to make it worth getting paid for each little performance. But how do you do that?

[Robert Smith]

I'll tell you how you do that. You start out with a lawsuit. So Victor Herbert sues Shanley. And Shanley, he has his own collective action problem because he doesn't wanna, like, have to figure out whose songs he's playing and pay them all. So he goes to the national association of Hotel and Restaurant Owners. They all get together to back his legal defense. They want a court to say that music in the background doesn't matter. You do not have to pay the composers. And Herbert says, fine, I've got friends too. And he assembles eight heavy hitters from the music publishing industry at a German restaurant downtown called Lucho's. They were not gonna go to Shanley's for this. So the songwriters decide to form a cartel. They decide to found in 1914, the American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers. ASCAP. It is known as ASCAP. And I'm not gonna say that whole thing. We'll just refer to it as ASCAP going forward. And they start recruiting all of the songwriters in town. There is in fact, a district of New York City where the songwriters all work. It's called Tin Pan Alley, apparently because the sound of out of tune pianos sounds like tin pans being banged together. It's, you know, evocative. It's old New York. And Tin Pan Alley is where all the publishers of music exist. Right. And the members of Tin Panhalli are heavy hitters. Like Prepare yourself, Irving Berlin.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Oh, truly a heavy hitter.

[Robert Smith]

Yeah. John Philip Sousa.

[Jacob Goldstein]

All the marches.

[Robert Smith]

Yeah, you need them all. And a budding songwriter named Gene Buck.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Don't know him.

[Robert Smith]

Back. He's going to come back into the story later. So the lawsuit goes on. Herbert vs. Shanley Co. Winds its way to the Supreme Court in 1917.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Love a Supreme Court case.

[Robert Smith]

You're gonna love this one. Because Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes writes the decision. Junior and he rejects the argument that this music was just incidental to the restaurant that it's playing in the background. His decision said if the music did

[Jacob Goldstein]

not pay, it would be given up. If it pays, it pays out of the public pocketbook. Whether it pays or not, the purpose of employing it is profitable and that is enough. So it basically means, just to be clear, like you could play and sing it at your house if you have your friends over, but if you charge your friends 10 bucks to come in and you play the music, then you gotta give ASCAP a cut.

[Robert Smith]

Yeah. It means even if you're just harmlessly using music in a podcast and the podcast has advertising and you're making money off of it, then you have to pay the people who wrote the music. Excellent example. The ruling established the power of ascap and they had a sort of two part plan. The first part was they are going to start enforcing the rules about copyright. So essentially ASCAP sends out music cops, people who go to the big establishments like Shanley's and listen and write down all the music that's played, and then they sue the restaurant owner or the burlesque hall. And of course, they weren't getting everyone, but it's a huge, huge, scary thing to be slapped with a lawsuit. And everyone knows they're going to lose the lawsuit. So now they have the restaurant's attention. And this is when ASCAP offers an easy way out. Like, yeah, you could try to avoid us and we'll just sue you all eventually. Or you could pay us a tiny percentage of the money you make in your restaurant, and then you can play anything you want from our collective of musicians, huh? Ascap, in turn, distributed the royalties they got from these establishments to its members. They had a very complicated system, but basically, if you were a big popular songwriter and people knew your name, you would get more money from the royalties. If you had more hits, if you produced more songs, you'd get more money. And the money was technically shared between the songwriters and the publishing houses who were marketing the music.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I mean, I will say this seems like a nice system, right? Because on the one hand, you want everybody to get paid who should get paid, but on the other, there would be all this friction otherwise. Like, counting every song you play if you're a restaurant is such a ridiculous thing to have to do. Like, you're not in the counting songs business, you're in the restaurant business. And this does seem to solve that.

[Robert Smith]

It does. And, you know, it works out to whatever, pennies per song. But it's great for the musicians, and it probably ends up being great for the restaurants and such that they don't have to think about this whole thing. Now, it is worth mentioning that ASCAP did not let just anyone in. They had rules. You had to know how to read music. You had to have the right pedigree. Meaning that for the most part, jazz and blues musicians, hillbilly musicians, as they were called at the time, we now know that as country music, they were left out of this whole thing. It was, you know, the Broadway, the composers.

[Jacob Goldstein]

It was New York thinking it was better than everybody else.

[Robert Smith]

Exactly. By 1921, this whole thing is actually paying off for ASCAP. Whatever they were spending in enforcing their copyrights, they're getting more money back. Everything's working out for its members until a brand new technology emerges.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Your favorite technology.

[Robert Smith]

A miracle in the ether. It's radio. November 2, 1920, first radio broadcast out of Pittsburgh. This is KDKA of the Westinghouse Electric and Manufacturing Company in East Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

[Jacob Goldstein]

The Westinghouse Corporation. Like Westinghouse in our Edison, Tesla and Westinghouse show.

[Robert Smith]

Yeah, they wanted to sell radios, electronics, so they had to put something on the air. But, Jacob, I wanted you to hear this part. Very first broadcast ever. Listen to what the announcer says. We'd appreciate it if anyone hearing this broadcast would communicate with us as we are very anxious to know how far the broadcast is reaching and how it is being received.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Email us at businesshistoryushkin fm.

[Robert Smith]

I love. In the very first hour of the very first broadcast, they're like, do we have any listeners?

[Jacob Goldstein]

Write us or leave a comment below.

[Robert Smith]

Guys, that was a news broadcast. That's how it started out. But very quickly, radio stations started to play sporting events, radio dramas and music. And. And importantly at this time, music on the radio was played live. They would bring in orchestras to play the music, just like in the restaurants. And for ascap, they're like, okay, like, what is radio except a dance hall of the air? Of course, you have to pay the piper or pay the person who wrote the music for the piper, but you know how it goes. There's a series of court cases, and radio stations, they make all these arguments. These are going to sound familiar. The first one is the radio says, since there is no audience in the studio, we are not giving a public performance.

[Jacob Goldstein]

It's just private.

[Robert Smith]

Just private. It's just in the studio. If you're listening in, that's not our concern.

[Jacob Goldstein]

It's literally their concern.

[Robert Smith]

Go on the second argument they made and you'll hear this one. Today, we make the songwriters famous, so why should we pay them?

[Jacob Goldstein]

They should pay us. That was, in fact, the payola scandal

[Robert Smith]

of a few decades later, which was illegal. But the third one was radio does not broadcast music, Jacob. It emanates electrical energy.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Hamburger's not chopped ham, it's chopped steak.

[Robert Smith]

Obviously, these were stupid arguments. In 1924, the FCC Federal Communications Commission rules that radio is, of course, a public performance and copyright is in effect. You have to pay the musicians. ASCAP has won. Not only are they getting a small amount of money from restaurants and dance halls and that sort of thing, they now get a share of the money from the biggest technology of the time, the thing that is going to take over music in America, radio. So far in this podcast, I have been sort of pulling for the little guy, the songwriters. But they are about to go way too far in their quest to control music.

[Jacob Goldstein]

That's what cartels do. This is a cartel story. They get together There's a collective action problem. They're the little guys, but then they go crazy with their cartel power.

[Robert Smith]

They become the big guys. It starts with the election of a new president of the organization. His name is Gene Buck. I mentioned him before. He's one of the composers. He is the composer of Get Ready Ben, Daddy has a sweetheart and Mother is her name. Don't let that sweet tune fool you. Gene Buck is a total shark. Gene Buck is about to run ASCAP like the Godfather.

[Jacob Goldstein]

What is some radio guy gonna wake up with a bloody microphone in his bed

[Robert Smith]

when our program continue.

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This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card there's something interesting about how seamlessly certain tools fit into daily life. Apple Card is one of those things it can be applied for right in the Wallet app on iPhone and approval can happen in minutes, so it's ready to use immediately with Apple Pay. I'm so glad the days of finding my wallet, fishing out the credit card, using it, putting it back in my wallet. Or oops, maybe I use cash. Where's the atm? Enough. The first time I used Apple Pay on my phone with my Apple Card, I was like, this is the future. There's no going back. With Apple Card purchases earn daily cash up to 3% with no points to track and no waiting for rewards. It's simply daily cash back that I earn on every purchase. There's even an option to open a high yield savings account through Apple Card and while I haven't done it yet, if I do, my daily cash can grow automatically over time without any extra effort. Because Apple Card lives in the Wallet app, it's always accessible on iPhone and can be used with Apple Pay at over 85% of merchants in the US and the security of Face ID and Touch ID prevents unauthorized purchases. Whether using iPhone or Apple Watch to exploit yourself, you can apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility. Savings in Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] you know what they say.

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[Jacob Goldstein]

Okay, we're back. We got Gene Buck, who is apparently not a sweetheart running ascap. What happens next?

[Robert Smith]

He's about to do the thing that cartels always do, which is to squeeze their customers just a bit too hard until they squeal. Buck started out actually as a cover illustrator in Tin Pan Alley. You know, the way you sold sheet music was you had to have a picture on the COVID People were like, oh, this looks great. I'm gonna buy this for my kid to learn how to play the piano. And then his eyesight started to fail him and he became someone who wrote lyrics. Okay, that's fine. And he became very successful at it. He was known as Mr. Broadway. So successful that he had a mansion out on Long island next to F. Scott Fitzgerald.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Was he Gatsby? Gatsby, yes.

[Robert Smith]

It is rumored that his parties might have inspired the Great Gatsby. Although now that I think of it, everyone on Long island probably says that about themselves, right?

[Jacob Goldstein]

So, I mean, if they were rich and full of despair and had great parties, sure.

[Robert Smith]

So he has an orchard out there, a vineyard, apparently doesn't drink. Time magazine calls him the General Lisimo of the clangorous army of Tin Pan Alleymen.

[Jacob Goldstein]

That is the timeiest sentence that ever timed.

[Robert Smith]

Why don't you give us the New Yorker? Iest sentence ever. New Yorker.

[Jacob Goldstein]

So the New Yorker said of him. They said, the sentimental, soft spoken lyric writer is the most powerful private citizen on earth. He can stop the broadcasting of popular music. If he says stop, jazz must vanish from the air.

[Robert Smith]

It's interesting they would mention jazz because Gene Buck did not seem like a big fan of black music or black performers. He didn't let black musicians, mostly or not many of them, into ASCAP. He's a driving force behind ASCAP's exclusion of blues and R and B as well as hillbilly musicians. So at this point, it is all about the radio. Whatever else ASCAP was doing. Sheet music sales, phonographs, player pianos. Like the radio is Making the most money. And so Gene Buck says, we go where the money is. We are going to squeeze them. In 1935, they make a deal with radio stations. Radio has to pay a fixed fee to ASCAP of 5% percent of their advertising revenue. 5% a year.

[Jacob Goldstein]

It's a good time to be writing songs, I guess.

[Robert Smith]

Great time to be writing songs. It works out to millions of dollars for ASCAP. And at this point in 1939, ASCAP does control about 90% of music copyrights. They're in bed with Hollywood. Their members are writing songs for Broadway. They are running popular culture now. Radio stations obviously are a little upset with this situation. You know, having to give away 5% of their advertising revenues. They go to the federal government. The federal government. It's a complicated story, but they decide that for the time being, they are not going to challenge this cartel. So instead the radio stations go to the state legislatures, state by state, in the mid to late 1930s, they go and try to convince them to pass laws against this mafia like behavior. And they succeed in a few states. Nebraska, Louisiana, Tennessee, and importantly for this story, Montana. They all pass laws that forbid the collection of performance fees by joint action.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Collection of. So it's like, it's like a racket. Like, I'd hate to see what would happen to your radio station if you did not pay me 5%.

[Robert Smith]

They say it is extortion because it's not a free market negotiation of what the rights are. Montana should be able, Montana radio stations should be able to make their own deals, which they cannot under this system.

[Jacob Goldstein]

They're trying to undo the cartel, trying to sort of unsolve the collective action problem.

[Robert Smith]

And it's gonna get hot, this fight. A Montana radio station gets a justice of the peace to issue a warrant for Gene Buck, the president of ascap, on extortion charges. Yes, this man cannot go to Montana because there is a warrant out for his arrest. And in fact, that warrant starts to be circulated to other states. Gene Buck is visiting Phoenix, Arizona, nowhere near Montana, and he gets arrested on extortion. The sheriff sets the bail at $10,000. Not trivial, no. Buck is in Phoenix, it's a holiday weekend, doesn't know where he's going to get the money. Calls up a friend and the friend gets is like, okay, I will send a certified check from Chase national bank to the sheriff. And the sheriff apparently replied, I'm one of those old fashioned fellas and I don't know what a certified check is and I have never heard of this Chase National Bank.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I don't believe that sheriff one bit. I bet he's running for office. I Bet he's got $300,000 in an account in the Chase National Bank.

[Robert Smith]

And arresting a New York songwriter is good for good?

[Jacob Goldstein]

For getting votes.

[Robert Smith]

Good votes. Eventually, Buck gets out, the charges are dropped. Montana's like, this is ridiculous. But this shows you how serious this fight was getting. So the government's sniffing around. Broadcasters are pushing back. These should be a sort of warning to ASCAP to be like, hey, be a little bit of a benevolent monopoly here. You know, Give your. Give your customers a break.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yeah, take the money. Just get rich enough. Don't push it too far.

[Robert Smith]

Gene Buck announces that they're gonna raise rates. They are going to double them, in fact, from 5% to 10% of the broadcaster's advertising revenue. And this is gonna go into effect when the contract expires at the end of 1940. December 31, 1940. If you don't pay us, you will have no music on your air in 1941.

[Jacob Goldstein]

So what happens?

[Robert Smith]

The broadcasters freak. They're just like, oh, we gotta negotiate. We gotta negotiate. They set up this big meeting between the heads of all the big radio networks and Gene Buck. They have a room at the Ritz Tower. They're gonna hash this out. The radio executives arrive. Buck is late. Then it's an hour, two hours. He doesn't show. They call ascap. They're like, where's Gene Buck? Like, we're supposed to negotiate. They're like, oh, Gene Buck's on the West Coast. In fact, he's on a train en route to the Bohemian Grove.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I know the Bohemian Grove is, like, where famous rich people go camping with each other or something, right? Like, whatever. Henry Kissinger and Bill Clinton. It's where powerful and rich people go to meet in secret. And if you think of the arc so far, you know, we started with a composer walking into a restaurant and having no power over the fact that his music was being played and he wasn't being paid. And now you have this guy going to hobnob with the most powerful elites. Instead of meeting with the people who want to negotiate with him, presumably in

[Robert Smith]

good faith, the broadcasters call a war meeting.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yes, love a war meeting.

[Robert Smith]

And they say, how do you fight a cartel? And the answer is, we form a rival cartel. They decide they are going to build Broadcast Music Incorporated. Bmi. There's a standing ovation. And the idea behind BMI is there's a lot of music that ASCAP has not captured. Country, blues, R and B, gospel, Latin artists. And so what if we sign those artists and we go to radio stations and say, you don't have to deal with ascap, you can deal with us. Bmi.

[Jacob Goldstein]

It's amazing when you say that, right? This is what, 1939. So they don't know what's coming. But when you say country music and R and B and blues, they're making the rock and roll cartel.

[Robert Smith]

Yeah. And Latin artists. I'm just gonna say Irving Berlin did not play the Super Bowl.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yes.

[Robert Smith]

BMI starts its operations in February of 1940. They have 10 months. 10 months to sign up radio stations.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Oh, right. Because at the end of the year, that's when the ASCAP ultimatum hits. So if they don't do it in time, the radio stations won't have music.

[Robert Smith]

After New Year's, BMI recruits a guy named Carl Haviland as their station relations manager. It's gonna be his job to sell stations on this plan. There is this really charming story about him that illustrates what it is he does. In 1935, he was working for a radio station. He'd been in touch with Amelia Earhart, the famous flyer. She was about to attempt to be the first person to fly solo from Hawaii to the US mainland. 18 hours, and she was worried about falling asleep in the cockpit. So Havrlin and the others at the radio station have this sort of publicity stunt they've decided to do. They are going to beam music to her plane specifically for her. Her playlist, and she's going to, like, call in on the radio to see if she's okay. Great, great idea. But at 3:05am, they don't hear from Amelia Earhart again. At 3:35, they don't hear from her. They're worried she's gone down. And at 4:00 in the morning, Amelia Earhart comes through, sounding a little bleary. So Haviland asks her on the radio, what is your favorite song? And she says, the Red River Valley country music. And Havrelland says to the band, hit it.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Come and sit by my side if you love me.

[Robert Smith]

And then the song keeps Amelia Earhart awake. She continues to fly and she lands in Oakland. It was a hoedown of the air.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Thanks, Ben.

[Robert Smith]

And this is a good glimpse of something that Havrelland seemed to understand that Gene Buck did not. A lot of Americans didn't actually look like the highfalutin Broadway music. Maybe they pretended they did. It was certainly on the radio, but a lot of people wanted to hear a lot of other Things, local songwriters, jazz and blues. Like, this is what people were listening to in their bars and honky tonks outside of New York. And they wanted to hear it on the radio. And I should say here that this story and most of our information about Carl Haviland and BMI comes from a few oral histories courtesy of the Country Music hall hall of Fame and Museum.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I will say our producer, Gabriel Hunter Chang, who did most of the research for this show, was sitting next to me in the office. And there was this moment a few weeks ago when he was like, yes. And I was like, what? And he was like, we get the oral histories. I was like, that is a great producer.

[Robert Smith]

So the charming Carl Haverlin is the man who really gets BMI off the ground. He's traveling around the country, talking to station managers, getting them to sign licenses with bmi, very similar to the ASCAP licenses, where you can play all of our roster of artists if you give us a small amount of your revenues. His goal is to get 750 stations. And BMI is starting to get some hits. They work out a hit arrangement of Genie with the light brown hair. They start bringing in the country music musicians, the Carter family, very famous. Jimmie Rogers, one of the fathers of

[Jacob Goldstein]

country music, I believe.

[Robert Smith]

A yodeler. A yodeler. That's what people wanted to hear, not yodeling on Broadway. The end of the contract with ascap is looming. December 31, 1940. Gene Buck Planning to pull American music off the air. And as the clock hit midnight, people around the nation were wondering what is going to happen. They tuned in and they heard,

[Jacob Goldstein]

wait isn't holding sign in the public domain.

[Robert Smith]

Yes, anyone could play it, as long as it's not an ASCAP arrangement. But everyone was waiting to see what happens. After Ben finishes playing this song, will there be any music at all on the radio? Will they just turn the whole system off?

[Jacob Goldstein]

Thanks, Ben.

[Robert Smith]

After the song finishes, the music continues into the night. Listeners thought that maybe ASCAP had finally made a deal. Maybe the radio stations gave in. But no, it was BMI music. They had slotted in BMI music and nobody really noticed or even really cared. Music is music. They partied into the night, except for maybe one man. Gene Buck.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yeah, if you form a cartel, you better make sure that there's not a substitute for what you're selling.

[Robert Smith]

He thought there would be people on the streets being like, where's my Gershwin? Where's my Irving Berlin?

[Jacob Goldstein]

And they were just yodeling all night long.

[Robert Smith]

They were yodeling all Night long. Ten months later, ASCAP caves. They agree to much more modest terms than the 10% they were asking for. In fact, they didn't even get the 5% of advertising revenues which they had before they negotiated. Now 2.75% of radio station revenues had to be paid.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Shout out. Competition.

[Robert Smith]

I know.

[Jacob Goldstein]

We love competition.

[Robert Smith]

I know half of what they've been paying before. Buck is eventually removed as the president of ascap. Carl Haverlin becomes the president of bmi.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I guess the songwriters don't necessarily love competition. Although the formerly excluded songwriters love competition. Right. The only people who don't love it are the clubby Tin Pan Alley, New York songwriters who pushed it too far.

[Robert Smith]

I feel like I'm saying the Jacob Goldstein line. But the pie can get bigger. More music, more. More songwriters, more revenues, more advertising, more money for everyone.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yes. 2.75 if you can grow the pie, 10x is more than 10% at the old, smaller pie. Love that.

[Robert Smith]

I've learned something from you. The broadcasters and the American public end up with music from both ASCAP and bmi. There is a truce in the war and they're still a little competitive, which is great. BMI signs Elvis Presley. ASCAP scoffs the rock and roll. That's not going to happen. The Gershwins are coming back. Then ASCAP signs Bob Dylan. Hey, acoustic Bob Dylan. Because that's more. That's more classy. That's more ascap. And then when Dylan goes electric, as Cap has to kind of go electric too. And it opens the door for them to represent rock and roll. See, there's progress. There's progress. But the big picture is that the two organizations have created a calm and very profitable market for songwriting.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Oh, a calm and profitable market, you say?

[Robert Smith]

And who loves a calm and profitable market? Wall Street. Wall street takes a look at this and says, we want some of this action after the break.

[Liberty Mutual Advertiser]

And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

[Serving Pancakes Podcast Host]

Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?

[Jacob Goldstein]

Oh, no.

[Liberty Mutual Advertiser]

We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league.

[Liberty Mutual Advertiser]

Anyways, only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty.

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Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.

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[Serving Pancakes Podcast Host]

On the serving Pancakes podcast. Conversations about volleyball go beyond the court.

[iHeart Radio Advertiser]

Today we have a little best friend compatibility test.

[Serving Pancakes Podcast Host]

Okay, how long have we been best friends for? Since the day we met. As the League1 volleyball season heads towards its final stretch, there's no better time to tune in. We really are like yin and yang, vodka and tequila. You'll hear unfiltered analysis, behind the scenes stories and conversations with leaders making an impact across the sport. Today we have Logan the Necky. I feel like our fan base in general is very connected. Just like a comforting feeling getting to play at home. Whether you're following the final push of love season or just love the game, Serving Pancakes brings you closer to the action and the people shaping the future of volleyball. Jordan Thompson had that microphone out. God forbid we make mistakes or cuss at our coach.

[Robert Smith]

Like when talking.

[Serving Pancakes Podcast Host]

Open your free iHeartradio app. Search serving Pancakes and listen. Now, this has been Serving Pancakes and we'll catch you on the flip side.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Okay.

[iHeart Radio Advertiser]

Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports.

[Robert Smith]

This next act we're going to talk about a sort of unintended consequence of the ASCAP and BMI fight. At this point, because of ascap and bmi, songs are not just ditties that you sing along to. They are revenue generating machines. They have a life of their own

[Jacob Goldstein]

and a thing we know, right? So we're getting into the like 60s, 70s. This is a time when intellectual property more generally is growing as a thing. The owners of intellectual property, not just songwriters, but people like, say, the Walt Disney Company are pushing for stricter intellectual property protection and longer. Right. One of the really striking things you see in the 20th century is copyright keeps getting longer and longer and longer.

[Robert Smith]

Yeah. And ASCAP and BMI helped push for copyright protection to be extended to the songwriter's lifetime plus 50 years. Eventually it would be 70 years.

[Jacob Goldstein]

70 years plus plus their lifetime.

[Robert Smith]

So a song can live for more than a hundred years, and at this

[Jacob Goldstein]

point, a song can live forever. The revenues can live for more than 100 years.

[Robert Smith]

Right. And at this time, the number of places that you could get a little slice of revenue from was growing because you not only had radio, you had TV and movies, you had records and then eight tracks and cassettes and eventually CDs. And then you had the rise of oldies, radio stations, the hits of the 70s, 80s, 90s, and today, where a song like Hotel California is played every single day until the end of time.

[Jacob Goldstein]

That's a lot of pennies.

[Robert Smith]

It's a lot of pennies. To put it in financial terms, a song became an asset. It's protected and monetized by ASCAP and BMI along with the music labels and the publishers. And it generates a predictable cash flow. As we said, maybe for more than 100 years. A great song is essentially like a long term bond.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yeah, like especially a hit, Right. When you think about the hundred year cash flow that is your Hotel California or whatever, it's what you know people are going to play every day until the end of time. You can check out anytime you like, but the royalties will never leave.

[Robert Smith]

People start to figure out that these assets, we're gonna call em assets now, not songs you can buy and sell other people's rights. You can assemble them into a giant portfolio. And one of the first to do this in a notable way was a well known financial genius, the king of pop, Michael Jackson. Here's how the story goes. One night in 1981, Michael Jackson and Paul McCartney, no, he's a member of the Beatles or was hanging out at McCartney's estate outside of London. They're getting to know each other. Michael's interested in writing some songs with Paul McCartney and in fact they are going to collaborate on a few songs, including say, say, say what you want,

[Jacob Goldstein]

but don't lead me in no direction.

[Robert Smith]

Something like that. And McCartney is talking to Michael Jackson about the music business. And McCartney is saying, you know, it's so important that you own the rights to your songs because in fact he and John Lennon had lost some of the rights to their songs back in the early days. They were now owned by someone else. And McCartney says, you know, someday I would love to like reown my music, so don't make the mistake I made. And McCartney's actually showing off a little bit. And he's showing Michael Jackson that he's bought some other songs. So McCartney had bought the Buddy Holly catalog and some Broadway tunes. And Michael Jackson jokes, well, you know, someday I should buy all of your music, Paul. Ha ha ha ha. Well, at least McCartney thinks it's a joke, but it's no joke. Michael Jackson happens to be sitting on $9 million used to be a lot. Used to be a lot. And he'd earned that in 1980. And he's thinking about where to park it. And McCartney has a suggestion. So Michael Jackson starts buying songs, music rights for songs like Run Around Sioux and the Wanderer, classic songs from the 1950s. He buys the whole Sly and the Family Stone catalog for half a million dollars.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Wow.

[Robert Smith]

I know. I would buy the music for half a million dollars. And it's a good deal because Michael Jackson ends up making that money back when someone covers a Sly and Family Stone hit. This is all working. And then Michael Jackson goes for the big score. The thing he joked about, an Australian media tycoon named Holmes. A court puts the Beatles catalog up for sale in 1984. So Jackson makes his move. He makes an offer for the Beatles catalog of $40 million. Remember, sliding the family stone was half a million. $40 million is huge. It's a very high valuation.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I mean, it is the Beatles, but

[Robert Smith]

we didn't know how much songs were worth back in this day. People in the industry think he's losing his mind. But there is, in fact, a bidding war. Richard Branson of Virgin Records throws his hat in the ring. And In August of 1985, Jackson wins at $47.5 million. Plus he has to appear at a telethon fundraiser in Perth, Australia.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Incredible.

[Robert Smith]

I love that. That got thrown in there. And at this point, this is the most expensive publishing purchase ever by an individual. And Michael Jackson, this is really interesting, he agreed to exclude one song, one Beatles song from the purchase. The man who was selling it wanted to gift his daughter one Beatles song, which is pretty adorable. He's kind of hoping that she'll pick Yesterday, which probably is worth the most money. His daughter chooses Penny Lane and owns the rights to it.

[Jacob Goldstein]

To this day, I'm sure she's doing fine.

[Robert Smith]

Jackson also doing fine. Thrilled to have the Beatles collection, Paul McCartney not so happy. He felt like he had made it clear that he wanted the Beatles catalog. And Jackson has not only bought it, but if you think about it, has greatly increased what it would cost for McCartney to buy those songs back. And pretty quickly, Michael Jackson starts trying to make money off of his investment of the Beatles songs, doing something that Paul McCartney says he would never do, like sell Beatles songs to advertisers.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I remember, actually, Was this the 80s? I remember in the 80s, there was this famous Nike ad where they played Revolution, the Beatles song Revolution. And I, being the target for that ad, loved it.

[Robert Smith]

Yeah. A lot of hippies didn't love it and Paul McCartney didn't love it. Like, this was not something they wanted to do with their music. And apparently Jackson said, oh, Paul, it's just business. It ended up being a great business for Michael Jackson. He doubled his money when he sold the rights later to Sony. And the lesson of all of this for the world was these songs are way more valuable than we thought as assets. Now, Michael Jackson was a simple buy, hold and sell investor. He saw an underpriced asset, bought it, sold it for double. But once songs are assets, you can do all sorts of financial engineering to them. The next step in our story comes from David Bowie. Ground control to major tone six.

[Jacob Goldstein]

All right, it's Bowie. I get it.

[Robert Smith]

Thank you. In the 1990s, David Bowie owned 50% of the rights to his catalog, which, you know, for a rock and roll star who was perhaps using drugs, like that's a high percentage. Like he had kept 50%. The problem was the other 50% was owned by his manager, whom he despised, hated his manager. And you can imagine if you're David Bowie driving along in California and a song comes on the radio and it's your song, you should feel great. But in fact, he felt miserable that half of the royalties from that song was going to a man that he hated. So he wants to buy back all of his rights and his financial advisors come up with a scheme that will allow him to do it by inventing a new financial instrument, or at least a new way to use an older financial instrument. In 1997, Bowie packages 287 of his songs and copyrights from Life on Mars to Ashes to Ashes. And he puts them into a special purpose vehicle, a securitization pool.

[Jacob Goldstein]

A securitization pool. You're ringing the 2008 financial crisis bell.

[Robert Smith]

Right.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Like anybody who has read about the financial crisis or listened to Planet Money talking about the financial crisis might remember, the securitization pool is when you take some set of assets typically that have some stream of income attached to them.

[Robert Smith]

Like a mortgage.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yeah. So if you take 100 mortgages, you put them into one special purpose vehicle, you put them into one bundle, and then you sell off slices of that bundle. Those are the securities.

[Robert Smith]

Yeah. Sell off slices of the revenue that comes from the bundle.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yes. So you buy a slice of a mortgage backed security, and every month you get some money as people pay their mortgage. Or I guess in the case of Bowie, every month or every quarter or whatever, you get a slice of his royalties.

[Robert Smith]

Yes. So this is the genius of the plan. In the old days, David Bowie, if he needed money, would just sell the rights to his songs and then he wouldn't own them anymore. But by putting them in this pool, he still owned his songs. He was just promising the revenue to whoever would invest in this song vehicle. So we offer something that is called colloquially a Bowie bond. It pays 7.9% interest and it gets bought mostly by an insurance company. You know, the insurance company is thinking, well, we need to invest our money somewhere.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Well, and insurance companies have long term liabilities. They know they're going to have to pay out for decades. And as you were saying before, songs are now long term assets and they want to match their assets and their liabilities.

[Robert Smith]

So Bowie ends up getting $55 million from this deal and he uses the money to buy the other half of his music rights from the guy he hates.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I hate you so much, I'm going to give you $55 million.

[Robert Smith]

But he's a musician and now he owns his rights. This is a happy ending to the story and it's very clever. Now, this did not work out as well for the investors because just as David Bowie does, this is really the peak of the music industry. Late 90s as we know it, right? CDs are making a ton of money. Everyone's like, this money will continue forever. And that's how we're going to value the Bowie bonds. And then music becomes essentially free on the Internet. People start to steal it with Napster and Limewire and all of this. And music industry revenues plunge, including royalties paid to David Bowie songs. And those bonds end up being rated junk at some point. But, but this drew the attention of the financial world. And if you have a ton of money, it just becomes another thing you're looking to invest in.

[Jacob Goldstein]

It's an asset class.

[Robert Smith]

Yeah, it's an asset class.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I mean, I got interested a few years ago in this company called Hypnosis With a G, founded by this guy, Merck Mercuriatis, who was this music business guy who started a company and it actually became publicly traded for a while. And all they did was buy up the rights to songs.

[Robert Smith]

Tens of thousands of songs.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yeah, Billions they spent, I think more than $2 billion. I wound up getting bought by Blackstone in the end. Classic finance story.

[Robert Smith]

Last year, investors including Blackstone, Carlyle and Michigan's state pension fund.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Ooh.

[Robert Smith]

Shout out to pension funds. They've raised at least $4.4 billion using songs by Justin Bieber, Lady Gaga and John Lennon and Paul McCartney packaged into securities and you'll notice, Jacob, you recognize the names of those musicians. A side effect of the financialization of music is that it makes superstars even more rich.

[Jacob Goldstein]

That's always heartwarming to hear.

[Robert Smith]

Yeah, I mean, if you're a financial asset, it also makes sense for these companies to spend more money promoting you, meaning that you're worth more and the securities are worth more and you'll make even more money. Basically, a lot of musicians are where they were a hundred years ago, before ascap. They're making a little bit from selling the music that they own. But in order to make real money, they gotta start to perform in the burlesque halls, you know, the beer halls, the restaurants, Shanleys of Times Square, and make their money from something that hasn't been financialized yet. T shirt sales.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Merch.

[Robert Smith]

Merch.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Today's live music was provided by Ben Nadaff Heffrey.

[Robert Smith]

The show was produced, reported and written

[Jacob Goldstein]

by Gabriel Hunter Chang. It was engineered by Sarah Bruguerre. Our showrunner and editor is Ryan Dilley. I'm Jacob Goldstein. I'm on X at Jacob Goldstein.

[Robert Smith]

Robert Smith, Radiosmith. Wherever you do that kind of thing. Thanks for listening.

[Liberty Mutual Advertiser]

And Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and on car insurance with Liberty Mutual. Even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.

[Serving Pancakes Podcast Host]

Hey, everyone, check out this guy and his bird. What is this, your first date?

[Jacob Goldstein]

Oh, no.

[Liberty Mutual Advertiser]

We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human, him to a bird.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league anyways.

[Liberty Mutual Advertiser]

Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty.

[Apple Card Advertiser]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.

[Serving Pancakes Podcast Host]

On the Serving Pancakes podcast, conversations about volleyball go beyond the court.

[iHeart Radio Advertiser]

Today we have a little best friend compatibility test.

[Serving Pancakes Podcast Host]

Okay, and how long have we been best friends?

[iHeart Radio Advertiser]

Since the day we met.

[Serving Pancakes Podcast Host]

As the League1 volleyball season heads towards its final stretch, there's no better time to tune in. You'll hear unfiltered analysis, behind the scenes stories and conversations with leaders making an impact across the sport. Whether you're following the final push of love season or just love the game, serving Pancakes brings you closer to the action and the people shaping the future of volleyball. Open your free iHeartradio app. Search serving pancakes and listen. Now presented by Capital One, founding partner

[iHeart Radio Advertiser]

of iHeart Women's Sports.

[Robert Smith]

Last winter, Jacob I went cross country skiing at the Von Trapp family lodge. I was looking at the name, I thought, oh, it's named sort of after the family in the Sound of Music, but it actually was the family from the Sound of Music who came to America and started this ski resort mecca in Vermont. And it made me think, like, what are these stories behind the big films that you never really hear? You see the film, but after the credits, what happened?

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yeah, it says, like, based on a true story, right? It doesn't say it's a true story. And so the question I always have is, like, what part of that story is actually true?

[Robert Smith]

If you ever want to know about the true story behind a film and you want to see how accurate it is, there's a podcast for you. It's called the Cinephiles.

[Jacob Goldstein]

They've made more than 400 episodes and counting. So there's a good chance that if there's a movie that you're interested in, the Cinephiles has covered it.

[Robert Smith]

You can find it by searching for the Cinephiles. That's C I N E F I L E S. Wherever you get your podcasts,