Universal vs Disney: The Battle for Orlando | Epic Rivalry | 4

Summary

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Business Wars: Universal vs Disney – The Battle for Orlando | Epic Rivalry | Episode 4

Released: July 23, 2026

Host: David Brown
Guest: Drew Taylor, Film, Animation & Theme Park Journalist (The Wrap, NYT)
Topic: The escalating rivalry between Disney and Universal in Orlando’s theme park landscape, the rise of IP-driven lands, and the changing economics and experiences of modern amusement parks.

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the high-stakes, fast-evolving rivalry between Disney and Universal in the theme park capital of Orlando. Host David Brown and veteran theme park journalist Drew Taylor explore how Universal closed the gap on Disney’s historic theme park dominance, the innovation arms race driven by blockbuster intellectual properties, and how business models are shifting — often at guests’ expense. The pair also touch on the deep connection between animation and theme parks, the evolution of immersive experiences, and where the industry is headed next.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Animation–Theme Park Connection

[05:46–08:02]

• Disney’s Parks as Animation Showcases:
  Drew recalls how Sleeping Beauty Castle was built (1955) before the film premiered (1959), serving as both park icon and movie promotion.

  "When you'd walk through Sleeping Beauty's Castle... sometimes you would see scenes that never made it into the final version of the movie."
  — Drew Taylor [06:07]

• Personal Impact:
  Drew shares his "origin story" — visiting Disney MGM Studios in 1989, witnessing animators at work inside a theme park.

  "It was a pretty profound moment. Sort of like Bruce Wayne's parents getting shot was me going to the Disney and Jim studios and seeing them make animated movies inside a theme park."
  — Drew Taylor [07:31]

2. Universal’s Breakthrough: Harry Potter and the Innovation Arms Race

[09:12–14:00]

• Harry Potter’s Impact:
  The 2010 opening of Universal’s Wizarding World of Harry Potter set a new bar for themed lands.

  "It was the first time that an outside entity had challenged Disney at their own game... an incredible immersive land unlike anything anybody had ever seen."
  — Drew Taylor [09:52]

• Disney’s Response & Lost Opportunity:
  Disney lost the Harry Potter license after failing to offer J.K. Rowling creative control, which Universal granted. Disney pivoted to developing "lands" built around a single IP (e.g., Star Wars: Galaxy’s Edge).
• Experiential Merchandising:
  Innovations like Universal’s "wand experience" inspired Disney’s high-end, immersive merchandise offerings in Galaxy’s Edge (e.g., custom lightsabers and droids).

  "They saw how many hundred twenty five dollar wands Universal was moving out the door, and said, 'Oh, we can do this at Galaxy’s Edge'."
  — Drew Taylor [14:15]

3. The Complex Web of IP Licensing

[15:42–18:17]

• IP Entanglements:
  Drew breaks down the complexities of Universal holding theme park rights to The Simpsons and Marvel in Florida, even after Disney acquired those brands.

  "The Marvel thing ... if the character appears on that mural, Disney cannot build anything with it in Florida... That’s how granular these things are."
  — Drew Taylor [16:18]

• Contingency Planning:
  Universal has “break glass” replacements (e.g., reskinning The Simpsons’ area if Disney calls back the license), and is leveraging Nintendo licenses for future expansion.

4. The Economics of Modern Theme Parks

[22:40–32:18]

• Multi-Park, Multi-Pass Complexity:
  Drew critiques how the proliferation of options (park passes, add-ons) intentionally complicates the consumer experience for profit.

  "You have to do so much homework before you go... It’s sort of insidious."
  — Drew Taylor [23:34]

• Pandemic as a Reset:
  The pandemic gave Disney an opportunity to reshape its model with reservations, dynamic ticket pricing, and a revised annual pass structure.
• Dynamic Pricing & Cost Creep:
  New pricing models mean ticket, food, and merchandise prices can now fluctuate like airline fares.

  "Meaning that the price of a Coca Cola could change depending on how many people are in the park or what time of day you’re there... If you look at some of the merchandise now, they don’t have prices on them. They have color coding."
  — Drew Taylor [25:13–25:57]

• The “Disney Bubble” and Guest Capture:
  Disney’s Florida land strategy — owning hotels and amenities — mimics Apple’s enclosed ecosystem, maximizing spend per visitor.
• Park Hopper Passes & Guest Experience:
  Drew acknowledges the appeal: "They love getting on the monorail and going, ‘oh, we’ve got a dinner reservation at Epcot’..."
  — Drew Taylor [28:15]

5. Upsells and Guest Frustration

[29:04–32:18]

• Lightning Lanes & Time Management:
  Upsells like Lightning Lane add substantial cost and complexity to guests’ days.

  "You have to be on your phone now... It’s almost gamified the experience of going to a Disney resort."
  — Drew Taylor [30:31]

• Resentment and the Breaking Point:
  Attendance is plateauing, but spending per visit remains up. Drew observes a potential, but not-yet-realized, backlash from over-complexity and cost.

  "I keep waiting for people to actually say, you know, you’ve pushed it too far... But for so many families, this has been baked into the kind of Americana rite of passage."
  — Drew Taylor [32:18]

6. Disney vs. Universal: Differing Strategies and Brand Identities

[32:50–36:08]

• Disney’s Relentless Polish vs Universal’s Experiments:
  Disney aims for perfection and generational tradition, while Universal is more willing to experiment with regional and quicker-to-market offerings (e.g., Universal Kids Resort, Universal Horror Unleashed Las Vegas).

  "There’s no way Disney could get away with something like that [the Frisco park]... Not only in terms of trying to go after a specific demographic or attendance level, but also in putting something guest-facing that is not really finished."
  — Drew Taylor [33:16]

• Accessibility vs Exclusivity:
  Recent Universal ads project a more “everyfamily” image, countering the perception that Disney is for “the haves and have mores.”

7. Epic Universe: Universal’s Next-Level Gambit

[36:50–41:43]

• The Appeal of Original IP:
  Drew lauds Epic Universe’s "Celestial Park" — an entire area with original storyline, not tied to existing IP, bringing back echoes of classics like The Haunted Mansion and Pirates of the Caribbean.

  "It makes me so happy to hear original music in the land that did not come from some old movie... I think Disney has kind of forgotten about... original IP."
  — Drew Taylor [37:45]

• Innovative Guest Flow:
  Universal experiments with free admission to certain areas, only charging when guests enter premium themed lands, using facial recognition to manage access.

  "Free to enter... and then they’re using facial technology... you will only get charged when you go through the portal into one of these other lands."
  — Drew Taylor [39:48]

• Disney’s Global Outlook & Climate Adaptation:
  Plans for a new Abu Dhabi park also serve as research for adapting US parks to climate change.

8. Who’s Winning the War?

[42:49–43:27]

• Disney’s Legacy Advantage, Universal’s Momentum:

  "I think Disney will always have the upper hand just in terms of the legacy, their ability to hire the most exciting talent. But I am more excited perhaps by what Universal has up its sleeve... But I think Disney will always be on top as long as people are willing to pay the exorbitant fees of going to one of the parks."
  — Drew Taylor [43:00]

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Memorable Quotes

• "I take very silly things seriously and I’m very happy to make animation and theme parks my kind of cornerstones."
  — Drew Taylor [05:40]
• "If they could incentivize turning you upside down and making sure that your last nickel fell out of your pocket, they would do that. But the technology is not there yet."
  — Drew Taylor [28:40]
• "It’s almost gamified the experience of going to a Disney resort."
  — Drew Taylor [30:31]
• "For so many families, this has been baked into the kind of Americana rite of passage... these are really primal memories."
  — Drew Taylor [32:18]

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Notable Lightning Round Responses

• All-time Favorite Ride: Great Movie Ride (Disney MGM Studios, now extinct) [43:53]
• Top Theme Park Snack: Mickey ice cream bar and Disneyland’s garlic cheesy bread [44:29]
• Dream Attraction: A revival of the planned “Dick Tracy Crime Stoppers”, or something based on The Rocketeer [44:56]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 05:46 – Animation’s impact on Disney parks
• 09:12 – Universal’s Harry Potter coup & consequences
• 14:00 – How Universal inspired Disney’s new immersive model
• 16:14 – IP licensing headaches (Simpsons, Marvel)
• 22:40 – Business model: passes, pricing, “bubble”
• 29:04 – Add-ons: Lightning Lanes, guest frustration
• 32:50 – Disney vs Universal brand philosophies
• 36:50 – What excites Drew: Epic Universe and original IP
• 39:48 – Guest flow innovations at Epic Universe
• 43:00 – Who’s on top: Disney or Universal?
• 43:39 – Lightning round (favorite rides, snacks, attraction ideas)

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Tone & Style

Conversational, affectionate, and lightly skeptical. Drew Taylor brings a blend of superfan enthusiasm and journalistic insight: candid about industry challenges and critical of rising costs, but always relishing the fun and creativity at the heart of both companies’ theme parks.

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Takeaway

Disney and Universal are pushing each other more than ever — leading to more immersive, expensive, and IP-driven parks. The future? Ever-deeper brand integration, continual upcharges, and the search for “the next big experience.” But, as Drew notes, what makes these places magic is sometimes the originality and openness that only true innovation — not just a bigger budget — can bring.

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Transcript

[David Brown]

Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of Business wars ad free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible

[Alice Levine]

app

[David Brown]

from Audible Originals. I'm David Brown and this is Business Wars. For decades, Disney was the undisputed champion of theme parks. From the original Disneyland to its multi park expansion in Orlando, its signature cruises and global expansion, it seemed like nothing could topple Disney from the top of, well, space Mountain. But Disney's biggest rival, Universal Studios, kept plugging away and eventually had its big breakthrough when the Wizarding World of Harry Potter opened in 2010 in Orlando. Disney responded with Galaxy's Edge, a fully immersive Star wars experience to build off its purchase of the franchise. But Universal shows no signs of backing down. In 2025, it launched Epic Universe, a massive park with five immersive worlds. Here to take us on a ride through these fierce theme park rivalries is journalist Drew Taylor. Drew's been covering film, animation and theme parks for the past 15 years for outlets like the New York Times, the Playlist, and Vulture. He's currently a senior writer at the Wrap and the host of the animation themed podcast Fine Tuning. With Drew Taylor, we'll talk about how Universal's been able to gain ground on Disney, what's new on the theme park landscape, and why these days it's all about the ip. There is no minimum height requirement for this episode, so stay with us.

[Narrator]

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[David Brown]

Drew Taylor, welcome to Business Wars.

[Drew Taylor]

Well, thank you for having me. I've never engaged in any kind of conflict, verbal or otherwise. So this, this is my first wars and I'm, I'm happy it's with you.

[David Brown]

Well, no conflict expected here. Let's, let's talk about what you've been up to. I gather that you've covered the theme park landscape for the Rap and the New York Times and a whole lot more. And tell me a little bit more about fine tuning your podcast. I gather you go rather deep on dis animation.

[Drew Taylor]

Yes, we do. I've been an animation fan, you know, pretty much as long as I can remember and I've always, I wanted to be an animator, but then realized I had no talent. So I turned that into writing about animation, which is wonderful because I get to talk to these people that make these amazing movies. It's such an incredible time for animation and for theme parks. So, you know, having those as my beats is, is a lot of fun.

[David Brown]

Writing about animation. It reminded me of, I guess it was Elvis Costello or someone who was qu saying, what is it dancing about? Architecture. I forget what it was. Writing about music is like dancing about architecture. Something like that. So what does it mean to, to write about animation?

[Drew Taylor]

Well, you know, there's, there's many facets to it. I write a lot of art of, and making of books as well, including I should, I should really plug this, the Art of Wildwood, which is about the new Leica stop motion film which is out in October. So please pre order your copy, everyone who's listening, you know, do yourself a favor. It'll be a lovely coffee table book. But a lot of writing animation is visiting the studios, getting to know the people that are making these movies, you know, talking to them about what the struggle is like. You know, these projects take so long and are multi year projects so you get a lot of opportunity to kind of check in on things. But you know, animation is really keeping the industry afloat. The top two movies globally last year were both animated. The only movie to break a billion dollars at the global box office this year was animated. We're seeing the incredible success of Toy Story and Minions and Monsters right now. It's a good place to be because I don't think a lot of people take animation seriously, even though it does kind of drive the Entire industry. So that's a good point. You know, I take very silly things seriously and I'm very happy to make animation and theme parks my kind of cornerstones.

[David Brown]

Well, let's talk a little bit about the theme park. What do you see as the connection between Disney's animation success and the theme parks themselves? We've explored that a little during this series, but I'm wondering how much of of the Disney experience is really tied to its animation success or if there's something else unto itself going on there.

[Drew Taylor]

Well, I mean, there's a lot of connections there, obviously, and I'm sure you got into this, but you know, Sleeping Beauty's Castle, which is the icon of Disneyland and one of the most photographed things in the world. You know, the park opened in 55 and the movie didn't open until 59. So that was actually a big kind of promotional thing for the movie. And when you would walk through Sleeping Beauty's Castle, you would see vignettes from the movie, but the movie was still in production. So sometimes you would walk through in those early years of Disneyland and see scenes that never made it into the final version of the movie.

[David Brown]

Oh, that's great.

[Drew Taylor]

It's kind of fascinating. Yeah, it's really cool. And you know, for me and my kind of like personal journey, when I was younger, I went to the Disney MGM Studios theme park, which had just opened in the summer of 1989, which was a full year before Universal got their park open in Orlando as well. So they beat them to the punch with this great new theme park that was devoted to the making of your favorite film and television series. And they had a full on Walt Disney Animation Studios at the time known as Walt Disney Feature Animation Satellite Studio in Florida. So to be able to walk through that, see animators working, you know, see the process, it was a pretty profound moment. It's sort of my origin story. It's sort of like Bruce Wayne's parents getting shot was me going to the Disney and Jim studios and, you know, seeing them make make animated movies inside a theme park. Some of those animators are still at Disney. So, you know, there's always such a huge connection between the animated product and the theme parks. But in that instance, they were actually making animated product in a theme park, which is just incredible.

[David Brown]

It's like they made this Jo just for you, man. I mean, really.

[Drew Taylor]

It's true. It's true that, you know, there really, there was a lot kind of conspiring to make me who I am today back.

[David Brown]

Yeah.

[Drew Taylor]

In the late 80s and early 90s.

[David Brown]

What about the rides? Did you ever get into the rides themselves?

[Drew Taylor]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm so into the theme park attractions and the new technology and the differing technology. You know, that Walt was such a, a kind of futurist and a, and a person who was so obsessed with technology and the latest technology. And I feel like in the parks is where you can really feel that kind of restlessness, that innovation, that commitment to the cutting edge. You know, there's a new pirate figure that just debuted in the Disneyland Pirates of the Caribbean that is featuring some way cool kind of high tech technology that I'm sure we will be seeing elsewhere in the parks. But it sort of is sitting there as kind of a test of, you know, the latest and greatest when it comes to Walt Disney imagineering and all that they do.

[David Brown]

Yeah. You've visited Universal's answer to Disney, I trust, right?

[Drew Taylor]

I have, I have. I frequent their parks and live around the corner now from Universal Studios Hollywood.

[David Brown]

Wow. So give me your take. When you go to Universal, how is your experience different or is it that different from what you experience at Disney?

[Drew Taylor]

You know, you brought up the fact that they're jockeying with each other right now. They are engaged in their own business war of sorts. And you know, this started with the Disney MGM Studios theme park because as legend has it, Paramount, which was at the time run by Michael Eisner, was looking to get involved with Universal theme park operations. They had this idea to do a studio park in Florida. And you know, when Michael Eisner goes across the street to Disney, lo and behold, he also has an idea for a studio based project in central Florida. And you know, there were legal ramifications to this.

[David Brown]

I'll say.

[Drew Taylor]

Yeah, yeah. So Disney got there first, but then with the Wizarding World of Harry potter opening in 2010, as you alluded to, it was the first time that an outside entity had challenged Disney at their own game. This was an incredible immersive land unlike anything anybody had ever seen. With bespoke dining, with next level attractions, including the use of this robotic arm technology called Kuka. That is sort of looks like kind of like what you'd see in a auto parts factory with a, with a, you know, a giant arm kind of moving a ride vehicle around.

[David Brown]

Right.

[Drew Taylor]

What made that super important too is that Disney had the Harry Potter license before Universal got it and they kind of fumbled the ball and Universal picked it up and said, oh, we'll take care of that, and did it. And I'd heard Stories that initially that Harry Potter license was only for the United States. So Disney went back to the Potter people and said, well, let's pitch things for around the world. Because obviously Disney has theme parks in Paris, Hong Kong, Shanghai and Japan. So, you know, there was a brief period where it looked like they might get those rights back for the, the global parks, but Universal ended up hanging on to those because they were such good partners with J.K. rowling and that entity. But yeah, I mean, it forced Disney to up its game. And I think that's what's really exciting about this current tussle between the two companies is that me, as someone who writes about theme parks and who loves theme parks and who loves going to these parks, is going to have a really fruitful few decades because they are constantly trying to one up each other.

[David Brown]

You know, you've mentioned some things there that I think are sort of worth drilling down on. Like for instance, you talk about how Universal succeeded where Disney couldn't, with which sort of stands the expectation, I suppose, on its head. You would think that a company with the resources of Disney and with the background and experience Disney has had with animation, they would know how to pull this off. And yet Universal secret, I think, was giving the author control, that sort of sign off approval. That was really what it was all about. And in a way that cut against Disney's corporate thesis, in a sense, we want to be in control.

[Drew Taylor]

Absolutely.

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Drew Taylor]

I mean, I think that they had had such success bringing these worlds to life in the theme parks over the past, you know, few decades. Walt Disney World just celebrated its 50th anniversary and Disneyland celebrated its 65th not too long ago. And you know, I think that there was some hubris involved in that. Sort of like a. Yeah, yeah, you sit in the corner. We kind of got this figured out. You know, their, their plan was not super amb. It was kind of an expansion of the Fantasyland area of the park in Florida. You know, it was not what Universal proposed, which was really, you're stepping through a doorway into the world of Harry Potter.

[David Brown]

It's world building. You said it just then. It's about building worlds. And maybe. Do you think Disney lost the plot on that just a little bit?

[Drew Taylor]

I think that they were taken aback by how successful it was. And I think that they thought maybe there is something to this. You know, they had never designed a, a land around one IP before. You know, if you go to Fantasyland, it's Peter Pan, it's Mr. Toad, it's Pinocchio, you know, this was all one IP. And you know, of course they promptly hired the Universal creative executive. Scott Trowbridge, who is sort of the Universal creative, is sort of the universal equivalent of imagineering. They hired him immediately. They put him to work on Star Wars Galaxy's Edge. But you know, that followed a lot of the same playbook in terms of creating the kind of in world food and drink experiences that Harry Potter did with their Butterbeer and all of that. Creating, you know, retail experiences that are real experiences. Like the wand experience at Harry Potter. They kind of did that with this.

[David Brown]

What is the wand experience? I'm not familiar with that.

[Drew Taylor]

It's really lovely and a really great thing to do. If you go to Harry Potter, basically you're ushered into this store and there is a member of the team who is dressed in robes and sort of presents himself as someone who is a wand maker. And there's a whole kind of show element where they pick a child out from the audience and that child goes through the whole thing of the wand choosing them. Things animate and it's a great experience for the kid who gets chosen and. But it's just as much fun if you're just standing in there watching this thing unfold because it's a really dynamic little piece of theater. So Disney saw that and saw how popular it was and how many hundred twenty five dollar wands that Universal was moving out the door, you know, and they said, oh, we can do this at Galaxy's Edge. And so they did a, a lightsaber building experience and they did a droid building experience and all of these things are up charges. But they are part of the overall experience of going to Galaxy's Edge. They're part of the vibe and the storytelling of that land. So, you know, I, I think that they did learn some things. Obviously they maybe took that a bit too far with the Star wars hotel that was infamously doomed and shut down very quickly after opening. Yeah, but you know, they're applying that, they're applying that to their parks all around the world. I mean, you know, in Shanghai there's a beautiful Zootopia land that has a great attraction and puppet shows in the windows and things like that. And so I think that without the Harry Potter experience being so wonderful and so detailed and so highly themed, we wouldn't have these things at Disney that people love, you know.

[David Brown]

Yeah, but these IP deals can get really complicated. I mean, on the one hand that was a really risky move for Universal, really risky strategy, you know, because J.K. rowling could change her mind. Want to take the franchise elsewhere, perhaps. You know, I'm sure that they have all that contractually tied. But talking about the complications of these deals. Deals. I know Universal Hollywood has a Simpsons ride and a crusty burger restaurant, but the Simpsons was a Fox property that now, ironically, Disney owns.

[Drew Taylor]

Yeah, that. That's going to be really interesting.

[David Brown]

Yeah. What happens?

[Drew Taylor]

Well, I mean, Universal has a lot of sort of break glass in case of emergency strategies for this stuff. They also have a Marvel land in Florida that obviously Disney is looking for every loophole to get out of that arrangement as well. The Marvel thing is like, there is a mural in Florida at Universal that has all of these characters. And it's sort of been decided that if the character appears on that mural, Disney cannot build anything with it in Florida. But if they do not appear in that mural, they can do something. So there was. There is a Guardians of the. Yeah, there's a Guardians of the Galaxy attraction at Epcot, because the Guardians of the Galaxy do not appear in that. That's how granular these things are. But, you know, there are contingency plans. You know, I've heard that in Florida, the. The Universal stuff could all be sort of switched over to a wicked land where the Hulk coaster would become the Wicked Witch coaster and things like that. It's a little trickier in Hollywood with the Simpsons Land because the Springfield kind of backdrop is actually a shared berm with the Harry Potter land. So you'd have to figure out something that could go in there. Yeah, I've heard they've looked at everything from bringing back the Back to the Future attraction to a Pokemon, you know, expansion. Talk about benefits of the Super Mario Brothers and Nintendo license that Universal has forged over the last few years, which is. Has been another kind of Apple cart overturning, you know, deal that Disney totally wishes they probably had forged themselves. But yeah, I mean, it's a really complicated, messy thing right now with that, with those IPs specifically. And, you know, Disney, another big factor is, is what the Disney purchase of these brands has done. Right. Because before they bought Star wars and Pixar, they had to work out all these things in a much more contentious kind of licensing agreement. Much like JK Rowling. Once they bought them, then it was like, oh, we can put them in the parks.

[David Brown]

You know, it seems like a lot of the buzz around some of these exhibits tends to be sort of focused on upcoming movies or features that are out currently. Does it usually work out? You have a successful movie and then you sort of follow on or how frequent is it that, you know, they can see this coming. They can see this is going to be big and so they plan in advance.

[Drew Taylor]

These attractions are so expensive. I mean, I've heard that the Star wars lands cost upwards of of a billion dollars each. And there are two of them. You know, there's one in Florida and there's one in California. So, you know, there's such a massive investment in these projects and the construction of them can be dictated by a lot of things. I mean, it takes years and years and years for these things to be developed and built and approved too. I mean, you've got to go to the Disney board and say, Listen, we need $800 million to spend on a, you know, Cars themed attraction. Yeah, you never know what's going to be a hit. You know, Encanto. When that was released theatrically, it was sort of right at the tail end of COVID Didn't do much theatrically, but then went on Disney and you know, is one of the most streamed titles ever, you know, in the history of Disney. So of course it is getting a new attraction in Florida. So there is sort of a wait and see, more of a wait and see approach. I think right now with their emphasis on research and development, Disney is trying to kind of like lay the track so that if something does hit in a massive way, they can get something into production quicker than the usual time, which it takes like there was a 3D Zootopia attraction that opened right alongside the sequel. So I think there are things like that. They redid the Millennium Falcon attraction to incorporate Mandalorian and Grogu for that movie. So that's another media based thing. I think those are a lot quicker to be able to kind of turn over. But it is sort of a wait and see approach. You know, I'm sure there are times when they've, oh, let's get the attraction going for Disney's Wish. And then it, you know, it becomes very unpopular and they have to kind of back away from that.

[David Brown]

Wow, Drew, what a great beat to have. My guest today is Drew Taylor, senior writer for the Rap. And when we come back, we're going to unpack the brand identities of these theme park giants and why it seems like there's an extra fee for everything these days. Stay with us.

[Dan Tabursky]

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[Matt Ford]

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[Matt Ford]

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[David Brown]

Hey there. Welcome back to business. My guest is theme park journalist Drew Taylor. Let's dive in a little bit further to that business model of Disney World and Universal Studios. Seems like as they expand, they're both doubling down on this whole multi park model.

[Drew Taylor]

Absolutely.

[David Brown]

Universal now has four, I think it's four distinct parks in Orlando.

[Drew Taylor]

Well, they call, they call the water park a theme park, but three or four. Yeah.

[David Brown]

Okay. And then of course, you got Disneyland and you've got California Adventure in Anaheim. Guests have so many options of what kind of pass they're going to buy. I have wondered sometimes whether it's good business to make. You have to do so much homework before you go to a theme park. You know, deciding what kind of ticket you're going to get and whether this is the right theme park and whether there's a better package here versus there. What do you see as the business strategy here?

[Drew Taylor]

Well, it's sort of insidious, but I think the park shutting down for the pandemic really gave Disney this out to say, like, oh, there are these things that we've kind of wanted to implement but couldn't Figure out how. And now that the parks are shut down and we have to kind of do a hard reboot.

[David Brown]

Oh, it bought them some time to think about this.

[Drew Taylor]

Oh, absolutely. And it gave them the opportunity to implement some of these more kind of nefarious things, like park reservations, which were never a thing beforehand, and kind of redoing the whole model of the annual pass. You know, Disneyland is really the most visited regional theme park in the world. You know, nobody wants to say that, but it's. It's really true. And it's really fueled by local visitors. By the local visitors, absolutely. You know, people who will pop down after lunch and, you know, ride a couple of rides and buy a T shirt and go home. I mean, these are really the people that can prop up the parks when there's some kind of fallow periods. So, you know, I feel like they kind of turn their back on those folks in an effort to maximize ticket buying at every turn, whether it's adding in a stay at one of the hotels or adding in Lightning Lane, and even things. Like, I did a story about dynamic pricing and how dynamic pricing is coming to the theme parks, and it's really an opportunity for them to literally change the price of a ticket based on the time of day you want to go, which is just insane. It's gonna. It's gonna be like a. Like an airline kind of model.

[David Brown]

I don't know how people budget for something like that.

[Drew Taylor]

Well, that's a great question. I mean, there was a great New York Times story last year or the year before about how many families go into debt just going on one of these vacations. And I really sympathize with them because they are hugely expensive. And adding in this idea of dynamic pricing, which, from the people that I talk to, is not only going to come to tickets, but is also going to come to merchandise and food and beverage. Meaning that the price of a Coca Cola could change depending on how many people are in the park or what time of day you're there. Yeah, I mean, it's. It's insane. If you look at some of the merchandise now, they are. They don't actually have prices on them. They have color coding so that they can change the price of that color of merchandise.

[David Brown]

I have to ask you then, is there. Is there a better time to get your soda or in the morning?

[Drew Taylor]

We haven't gotten them yet, but, I mean, it will happen. I mean, you're paying hundreds of dollars to go to these theme parks every day. It's really. It's A lot. And you have to budget and you have to go into these things, like you're, you know, talk about wars. You're going into kind of a military invasion of. Okay, we've got dinner reservations here. We've got to look at our, you know, our light lanes here. We've got to do all of this stuff. And he used to not be like that.

[David Brown]

I heard what I thought was an apocryphal story about Walt Disney going down to Anaheim after Disneyland was up and running maybe a few years after it had gotten off the ground. And he was looking around the city of Anaheim and what was starting to surround the theme park. And there were all these sort of Travelodge style motels and all kinds of souvenir shops. And the thought occurred to him, why don't we own that? Of course, by that point, they'd already sort of purchased the land, and there were limits on what they could actually do. But a big part, as I understand it, of how they were thinking about building out in Florida was to make sure they had enough land so that they would have people locked into that ecosystem. People were spending money not just at the parks, but to, you know, stay overnight and to buy the stuff. And it was part of, in a ways, what Apple does, right?

[Drew Taylor]

Yes, absolutely. It's exactly like Apple. It's that kind of closed loop ecosystem referred to in various states of derision as the Disney bubble is sort of the Disney bubble. You know, you're right. It is a closed loop. You know, when Walt did the video about, you know, Epcot and what he wanted to do in Florida, he said, here we have the blessing of size. And it's true. It's, you know, it is a. It is a giant piece of property. I mean, they could literally do anything that they wanted to. And, you know, there is, there is definitely a component to being in this ecosystem where you. You cannot walk five feet without giving some money to the Disney Corporation.

[David Brown]

Let's talk about those park hopper passes. This is where you can go between the parks. Are guests going all in for these passes?

[Drew Taylor]

They absolutely are. People love doing that. They love getting on the monorail and going, you know, oh, we've got a dinner reservation at Epcot or, you know, whatever. And Disney has tried to, you know, make that process a little bit easier. There's a thing called the Skyliner now, which is kind of these kind of sky buckets that you use to travel from one area of the resort to another.

[David Brown]

So they're sort of incentivizing park hopping I guess, giving you reasons.

[Drew Taylor]

Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, if they could incentivize turning you upside down and making sure that your last nickel fell out of your pocket, they would do that. But the technology is not there yet,

[David Brown]

you know, so it's amazing how well they can hide that. If it were indeed as crass as you say.

[Matt Ford]

Y. Yes.

[Drew Taylor]

With a smile and a lovely wave from your favorite Disney character.

[David Brown]

Yes, yes, yes. Well, speaking of add ons, we gotta talk about these lightning lanes and fastpasses. Get a sense, just in terms of the conversations that parents have with each other, that there's a little bit of resentment going on there. And I wonder whether you see that in the bottom line. Are these essential to enjoying the parks now?

[Drew Taylor]

They are essential in terms of enjoying the parks. They are also essential as we are talking about the business side of this company, in terms of what is getting greenlit to being produced and.

[David Brown]

Oh, say more about that.

[Drew Taylor]

Okay. So I did a story recently about a new land coming to the Magic Kingdom called Villains Land. And from everyone I talked to, there was a real emphasis on making sure that there was at least one attraction that met the standard of what they call individual lightning lane. You know, Lightning Lane is a package and you can get access to different rides, but individual lightning lanes are sort of the top tier attractions and the ones with the longest lines that you can actually pay an individual fee to get a better spot in the line. Now, these fees can go up to like, I think excess of $30 per person. So if you're going with a family, I mean, you're talking about hundreds of extra dollars. I. I was in Florida for the Star Cruiser, the Star Wars Hotel in 2021, and I rode the Ratatouille attraction in Epcot. And I think it cost me 14 just to do that by myself.

[Matt Ford]

Wow.

[Drew Taylor]

So they're saying we have to have at least one attraction in this new land that clears that individual lightning lane criteria so that we can make money. I mean, I've heard this literally makes them hundreds of millions of dollars. Her attraction, like on Star Wars Rise, the Resistance, or Guardians Galaxy Cosmic Rewind. I mean, hundreds of millions of dollars. And you're right, it has been baked into not only the experience and the budget of families vacations, but also the time management, because you have to be on your phone now. Oh, a new lightning lane has opened up. Let's get this. You know, it's almost gamified the experience of going to a Disney resort.

[David Brown]

But do you think that this has. This can reach A sort of a critical mass. Patrons are just like, look, you know, I'd love to take my kids. And yet it becomes sort of an unpleasant experience, especially for adults who have to do all that management.

[Drew Taylor]

I keep waiting for the moment to happen. I really do. I think that there is something happening. If you look at the attendance of the parks domestically over the past few years, they have either flatlined or dipped slightly. Now, where they're making up for it is that the per capita spending is actually up. So what that means is that they are still getting the Lightning Lane tickets. People are still buying a sweatshirt on their way out of Magic Kingdom at the end of the night. I bought a bottle of water at Disneyland a couple of trips ago, and it was $9.75. So, you know, all of that stuff is still rising. So I keep waiting for. For people to actually say, you know what? You pushed it too far.

[Dan Tabursky]

It's just.

[Drew Taylor]

It's too complicated. We're gonna stop going. But for so many families, this has been baked into the kind of Americana rite of passage. You know, your first trip to a Disney park, your first photo in front of the castle, the time that you got Pluto to sign your autograph book. I mean, these are really, you know, primal memories that families will spend years either saving up for these vacations or spend years paying them off after going.

[David Brown]

Yeah, certainly Disney, it would seem to me, would have a certain advantage when it comes to the generational capture. But of course, Universal has a lot of IP that's attractive as well. But it has me wondering, what do you see, Drew, as the fundamental difference between Disney and Universal when it comes to how they operate and how they position their brand and their parks in the marketplace. Is there a fundamental difference?

[Drew Taylor]

That's a great question. I think there is. And I think what's really interesting is the way that Universal is expanding in ways that Disney could not or would not. Let's say just a few weeks ago, they opened the Universal Kids Resort in Frisco, Texas, which is by all accounts, a really crummy park. It's aimed at little kids. There's not much theming. The water ride looks like some kind of water processing facility. And there is no way that Disney could get away with something like that. Not only in terms of trying to go after a specific demographic slash attendance level, but also in putting something what they would call guest facing. That, by all accounts, is not really finished. You know, Disney will delay projects months and years to make sure everything is sort of tightened up. But these kind of regional Expansions are really interesting to me. You have that, and then you also have something called Universal Horror Unleashed, which is in Las Vegas at the Area 15 complex. That's sort of the Universal Halloween Horror Nights model applied to a single destination where you can go any time of year. It's. It's not exclusive to Halloween, and it is a regional kind of experience. So those kind of things I'm. I'm really keeping an eye on in terms of, like, is this tenable? Is this, this something that's going to

[David Brown]

work as you describe it, though, Drew? It's sort of. Especially when you think about Disney holding off until they can get all of the polish down. It almost seems like. And correct me if I'm wrong here, Universal doesn't care so much about getting everything polished right, so long as their park is, I don't know, maybe more accessible, maybe more for the every person, you know?

[Drew Taylor]

Absolutely, yeah. Did you see the really great super bowl commercial that they put put out, David?

[David Brown]

No. Tell me about it.

[Drew Taylor]

Okay. Well, it's a really beautiful, kind of heartwarming commercial that shows families, I think, from around the country who look very sort of middle class, kind of relatable, going to the Universal parks in Florida they just opened last year, Epic Universe, which is like an amazing park that I love so much. And I can go on and on about why it's so wonderful, but they're going to these parks and having these great memories. And, you know, to me, it's a very pointed counterpoint to the Disney narrative. Whether it's right or wrong, I think it's right, but that these parks have really become for the have and the have mores, not the everyday American. You know, that Universal commercial really said, like, listen, these parks are for everybody.

[David Brown]

We're going to take a quick break and then queue up for one more ride. With today's guest, Drew Taylor, we'll get into Universal's new Epic Universe theme park, which Drew seems to love so much, and Disney's potential counterattack. Stay with us. Hey, welcome back to Bizarre Business Wars. We're talking with journalist Drew Taylor, who covers film, animation and theme parks for the Wrap. Drew, I'm curious, when you step back, what excites you the most about the theme park landscape these days? What gets your blood going?

[Drew Taylor]

Well, what gets my blood going is I think that Universal and Disney both are in really great places for expansion and sort of escalation. And I really hope that this continues because as a theme park reporter and someone who enjoys these parks, I'm just like, Very greedy for whatever's coming next. So I think we saw the opening salvo of this last year with the opening of Epic Universe and Disney has a lot of stuff that they're kind of loading up to challenge them.

[David Brown]

That raises an interesting point because sometimes I've gotten the impression that these theme parks have, have become so wildly innovative, certainly in recent years in terms of the rides and the attractions. Where do you go from here? Where are the parks going when it comes to innovation? Are we just talking about bigger, faster, what exactly?

[Drew Taylor]

Well, those kind of benchmarks are things that Disney and Universal have typically shied away from. You'll hear like it's the fastest roller coaster, it's got the tallest drop or whatever. And I feel like, like the, you know, Cedar Fair, Six Flags, you know, Monolith as it is now kind of has the market cornered on that stuff. So with Universal and Disney, it's really like, how do we make this more immersive? How do we make this sort of bespoke to only our parks something that you can only get if you go to Universal or Disney? And you know what I would really love to see, and this is maybe a pipe dream, but is an investment in original ip. One of the things I love the most about Epic Universe is that the, the kind of hub land, which is called Celestial park, is completely free of ip. It's an entirely new story. There are new characters, there is lore that has been developed just for this land. And it rules. It makes me so happy. It makes me so happy to hear original music in the land that did not come from some old movie that you half remember. You know, it's like what I think Disney has kind of forgotten about is the fact that Pirates of the Caribbean, now, you know, a crown jewel of the film division, started out as a theme park attraction in 1967. Wow. And it was an original theme park attraction. Same thing with Haunted Mansion. They've tried so many Haunted mansion movies and TV shows and things like that. An original IP, you know, like if you invest in IP in the parks today, in 10 or 15 years, you will have a Disney plus show. You will have another billion dollar grossing movie. You know, that's where I think things get, have gotten a little lost.

[David Brown]

Well, you're so enthusiastic about this Central park ideas as this central, you know, Hub. No pre existing ip. Is it too soon to call it a success? Because this has only been, you know, going for what, about a year now?

[Drew Taylor]

Now about a year. What's interesting about this kind of hub world of of Epic Universe is that they're testing a contingency plan where you can actually go to Celestial park, my favorite part of Epic Universe. And you can ride the rides and buy food and whatever and then not be charged for your ticket until you enter one of the other realms. Free to enter or what it's like, free to enter. And then they're using facial technology. They've just started testing this out where you will only get charged when you go through the portal into one of these other lands. And also kind of as a. As a holding area where, say, oh, the Harry Potter portal is full. Go hang out in Celestial park, ride the carousel, buy a pizza, you know, whatever, and then you'll get kind of alerted to come back into the portal at a later date. Something that I really appreciate about the Celestial park part of Epic Universe as well is that it is a true park. I mean, there's just, like, grass where you could just, like, sit down and have a soda and, you know, stuff like that. And to me, that's a really fascinating way of encouraging engagement with the park and these amazing attractions in a way that feels, you know, fresh and new. You know, Disney tried so many different iterations of this idea in the past. You know, there was going to be a roller coaster at the Boardwalk Resort, which is just outside of Epcot. You know, things like that, that never really solidified, but, you know, universal. We talk about how they're willing to sort of experiment more with these regional parks. They're also willing to experiment more in terms of guest flow, you know, the entrance procedures, things like that, in ways that Disney probably couldn't because not only are they such a huge machine, but also it's gonna be picked apart endlessly on social media.

[David Brown]

So already we've got. We've got. Which has pretty much gone global and in a sense, gone sort of more local, I suppose you could say, for Disney. Any word on new park anytime soon? What's the latest there?

[Drew Taylor]

They've tentatively said that the Abu Dhabi park is coming online, you know, in the next few years. It'll be interesting to see if that happens. I've. I've actually heard an interesting anecdote from. From a former imagineer that Disney is actually looking at the Abu Dhabi park park in terms of how they are going to deal with climate change, that pretty soon in Florida and California, the weather is going to be so inhospitable that it will mirror what the conditions are in Abu Dhabi, and they're actually going to be able to prepare their domestic parks. For the kind of climate change in the same way, you know, just by making a park in that part of the world and sort of observing what happens there.

[David Brown]

So if someone were to say Drew Collett, who seems to be ahead in this parks game right now, is it Disney or Universal who seems to have the upper hand or the advantage right now?

[Drew Taylor]

I think Disney will always have the upper hand just in terms of the legacy, their ability to hire the most exciting talent. But I am more excited perhaps by what Universal has up its sleeve. But I think Disney will always be on top as long as people are willing to pay the exorbitant fees of going to one of the parks.

[David Brown]

But of course that's the big question.

[Drew Taylor]

That is.

[Alice Levine]

Yeah.

[David Brown]

Listen, you've been incredibly generous with your time. Before we let you go, you willing to take on a few rapid fire questions?

[Drew Taylor]

Oh, I'm ready. I'm ready. I've done my jumping jacks. I'm ready.

[David Brown]

Okay. All right, here we go. Drew, what's your all time favorite theme park ride?

[Drew Taylor]

Theme park ride. Oh, wow. You know what I'm gonna get? Can it be an extinct attraction? That's really my question.

[David Brown]

Sure, of course.

[Drew Taylor]

Okay. I think my favorite maybe of all time is the great movie ride which was a opening day attraction at Disney MGM Studios to take it back. It's a lengthy dark ride where you go through the history of the movies and as an impressionable you youth who was already obsessed with, with cinema, it was an absolutely magical experience. And I got to write it right before it got closed down because I was there for a media event and it was really lovely to say goodbye. It's a great movie ride I think will be my favorite.

[David Brown]

So what's your favorite theme park concession?

[Drew Taylor]

Oh, well, I love a, I love a Mickey ice cream bar. But there is currently in Disneyland at a couple of the food stands in Fantasyland, this garlic cheesy bread that has cheese inside that really sets me up for success.

[David Brown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, those are the warmups. Put on your imagineer hat here if you can. If you were able to design a new attraction at any park, what would it be?

[Drew Taylor]

Oh, that's a great question. There was a plans for a Dick Tracy attraction for a long time called Dick Tracy Crime Stoppers which would have you firing a, a tommy gun out of the side of a, a Model T car, which I, I would love to do still to this day. But I would love to kind of go back to a classic Disney ip, something like the Rocketeer perhaps or.

[David Brown]

So cool. Yeah, with the art deco and all that.

[Drew Taylor]

Yeah, absolutely. Do do something with flight. You can have a, a South Seas Club restaurant outside and you know, get those dinner reservations afterwards. And you know, there's something very classic about the Rocketeer and that spirit of Disney, that kind of yet, you know, post war swashbuckling kind of stuff. So I would love to see something based on that because God knows I can't get an original IP through the door. So I kind of at least lean on something enjoyable. Yeah.

[David Brown]

Drew Taylor is a senior writer with the Rap and the host of the podcast Fine Tuning with Drew Taylor. Gotta check that out. Drew, thanks so much for joining us on Business Wars. It's been a real delight.

[Drew Taylor]

Thank you so much for having me. I hope you get back in line and, and we can, we can do this ride again sometime soon.

[David Brown]

Would love to. Next time on Business wars. How did GoPro, the tiny rugged camera go from riding high as a multi billion dollar brand to fighting for its life? Follow Business wars on the Audible app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to all episodes of Business wars ad free by joining Audible from Audible Originals. This is episode four of Universal versus Disney, the Battle for Orlando for Business Wars. I'm your host, David Brown, our senior. Our senior interview producer is Peter A.R. cooney. Our senior producers are Jenny Bloom and Emily Frost. Our producer is Tristan Donovan of Yellow Ant. Karen Lowe is our producer emeritus engineered by Sergio Enriquez. Our managing producer is Desi Blalock. Kyle Randall is our lead sound designer executive producer for Audible. Jenny Lauer Beckman, head of Creative development at Audible Kate Navin, head of Audible Originals North America Marshall Louie, Chief Content Officer Rachel Giazza Copyright 2026 by Audible Originals, LLC Sound Recording Copyright 2026 by Audible Original.