Beyond Expertise: Hiring Leaders for Growth

Summary

Summary of "Beyond Expertise: Hiring Leaders for Growth" – Business Lunch Podcast

Podcast Information:

• Title: Business Lunch
• Host/Author: Roland Frazier
• Episode: Beyond Expertise: Hiring Leaders for Growth
• Release Date: October 8, 2024

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Introduction

In the "Business Lunch" podcast episode titled "Beyond Expertise: Hiring Leaders for Growth," Roland Frazier and Ryan Deiss delve into the challenging yet critical task of hiring executive leaders for roles outside one’s area of expertise. This comprehensive discussion is tailored for entrepreneurs and business owners poised for scaling, who must navigate the complexities of building a robust leadership team to drive their businesses forward.

The Core Challenge: Hiring Beyond Your Expertise

Ryan Deiss opens the conversation by addressing a common dilemma faced by growing businesses:

Ryan Deiss [00:01]: "How do you hire for a role for which you know nothing about, specifically an executive leadership role? Every entrepreneur, if you achieve any level of scale, you're going to face this."

He highlights that while entrepreneurs excel in their core competencies—be it marketing, sales, or product development—their growth often necessitates bringing in exceptional talent in areas where they lack expertise.

Strategic Approaches to Hiring Executive Leaders

1. Identifying Organizational Needs

Roland emphasizes the importance of clearly defining the organizational need before initiating the hiring process:

Roland Frazier [06:39]: "The very first thing is to determine what is the actual need in the organization and then document what does the person who is going to fill the need look like."

This involves outlining the specific challenges the company faces and determining the role required to address these challenges, including the job title, description, and requisite qualifications.

2. Leveraging External Expertise

When lacking expertise in a particular functional area, Roland suggests enlisting the help of search firms or utilizing AI tools:

Roland Frazier [10:01]: "If I have a search firm, a good search firm is going to help you significantly with that. If you don't have that, then I would go to AI..."

He advises using AI platforms like ChatGPT, Gemini, or Perplexity to assist in defining job roles and creating detailed job descriptions.

3. Defining Cultural Fit and Personality

Beyond skills and experience, understanding the desired cultural fit is crucial:

Roland Frazier [06:39]: "What does the personality look like as a cultural fit? What kind of personality matches the culture of the company?"

This ensures that the new leader not only possesses the necessary technical skills but also aligns with the company's values and work environment.

4. Effective Utilization of Networks

Roland cautions against over-relying on personal networks due to their limitations and suggests a structured approach:

Ryan Deiss [11:44]: "Have you ever leveraged just somebody in your network to say, hey, can you help me find somebody?"

Roland Frazier [12:26]: "It's like selling your company, buying a company, any of those kinds of things. There's a process and you need to have a process that you're committed to."

He recommends providing clear role definitions and expectations when seeking referrals to ensure efficiency and effectiveness.

5. Implementing Structured Interview Processes

Transitioning from definition to evaluation, Roland advocates for scenario-based interviewing over traditional questions:

Roland Frazier [18:15]: "I highly recommend a book called Motivation Based Interviewing. MBI is so much better than... it goes into putting them into scenarios..."

Example Scenario-Based Question:

Roland Frazier [18:15]: "Tell me about a time when you were part of a team and someone wasn't pulling their weight. How did you handle that situation?"

Such questions elicit responses that reveal candidates' real-world problem-solving abilities and leadership styles.

6. Trial Projects and Multi-Stage Evaluation

To assess candidates’ practical capabilities, Roland suggests engaging top candidates in paid projects:

Roland Frazier [23:16]: "We'll hire all three of them as independent contractors to do a project that typically takes 30 days... and then we'll look at the result."

This hands-on approach allows the business to evaluate not just theoretical knowledge but also the candidate's ability to deliver tangible results.

7. Collaborative Interviewing

Involving multiple stakeholders in the interview process ensures a well-rounded evaluation:

Roland Frazier [26:31]: "They're usually being interviewed by whoever they're going to direct report to, plus the major stakeholders of the company."

This collaborative method helps in assessing both technical fit and interpersonal dynamics within the team.

Overcoming Evaluation Hurdles

Ryan addresses the concern of evaluating answers from experts when lacking subject matter knowledge:

Ryan Deiss [20:57]: "How do I evaluate the question? I mean, obviously they don't have an answer and if they're good, they will provide a proper response."

Roland reassures that the focus should be on the candidate’s process rather than the exactness of their answers:

Roland Frazier [21:31]: "I have never found myself unable to evaluate from going through the process that we just talked about because the answers to the questions that you want are relatively self-evident."

This underscores the importance of a structured hiring process where the candidate’s strategic thinking and problem-solving approaches are key evaluation metrics.

Practical Tools and Recommendations

Roland highlights the utility of modern tools and methodologies in enhancing the hiring process:

• AI Tools: For generating job descriptions and interview questions tailored to specific roles.
• Motivation Based Interviewing (MBI): For deeper insights into candidates’ motivations and problem-solving abilities.
• Trial Projects: To assess real-world performance before finalizing hires.

Conclusion

The episode "Beyond Expertise: Hiring Leaders for Growth" presents a robust framework for entrepreneurs aiming to scale their businesses by hiring executive leaders in unfamiliar domains. By meticulously defining organizational needs, leveraging external expertise, prioritizing cultural fit, and implementing structured evaluation processes, business owners can successfully onboard leaders who drive sustainable growth.

Notable Quotes:

• Ryan Deiss [00:01]: "How do you hire for a role for which you know nothing about, specifically an executive leadership role?"
• Roland Frazier [06:39]: "Determine what is the actual need in the organization and then document what does the person who is going to fill the need look like."
• Roland Frazier [18:15]: "Tell me about a time when you were part of a team and someone wasn't pulling their weight. How did you handle that situation?"
• Ryan Deiss [20:57]: "How do I evaluate the question? I mean, obviously they don't have an answer and if they're good, they will provide a proper response."
• Roland Frazier [26:31]: "They're usually being interviewed by whoever they're going to direct report to, plus the major stakeholders of the company."

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This episode serves as an invaluable resource for entrepreneurs seeking to build a competent and effective leadership team, offering actionable strategies and insights to navigate the complexities of hiring beyond one's expertise.

Transcript

[Ryan Deiss]

Yeah, yeah, we had it. We had a really good question that I thought would be worthy of discussion, and that was, how do you hire for a role for which you know nothing about, specifically an executive leadership role? And I think every entrepreneur, if you achieve any level of scale, you're going to face this. Most of us, when we start our business and that business achieves any level of growth, it achieves growth because we're good at something. Maybe we're really good at marketing and so we're able to get leads. Maybe we're really good at sales, so we're able to convert them. Maybe we're really good at the, you know, the product or the services side. So we're able to make people happy. But ultimately, and we're sort of able to build enough people around us to kind of make up for the areas where we're a little bit weak. But if the business is really going to scale, we're going to have to hire some people that are truly exceptional at those functional roles that we're not good at and we don't know anything about and we're not really skilled at evaluating talent for that.

[Roland Frazier]

Hey everybody. Roland Frazier and Ryan Deiss here with another episode of the business launch podcast. Ryan, we had a big event. We traveled all over the everywhere. We did all the things, worked all the times. How are you doing, man?

[Ryan Deiss]

I'm still so fricking tired. I am so tired because you're right. Yes. We had a big three day event. You and I are both of the introverted variety. I was incredibly tired afterwards. All I wanted to do was curl up in a ball and not be around people. And then my wife, who I love, adore, cherish more than any other human.

[Roland Frazier]

Being on planet to that.

[Ryan Deiss]

Yeah, she said. So I live in Austin, Texas. Austin has live music capital of the world, self proclaimed, has a big music festival every year called Austin City Limits. And she said we've never been, we should go. And so we got tickets to the.

[Roland Frazier]

Like to just pop in and then leave.

[Ryan Deiss]

Oh, that's exactly how it goes. Yeah. So we went to the Austin City Limits Music festival right after this event ends. I get to go and be around gobs of strangers in the 97 degree heat, which normally it's quite nice in Austin in, you know, this time of year. Not this year, my friend. Hotter, hot, hot, freaking. So astoundingly and disgustingly hot. So yeah, no, no rest for the weary.

[Roland Frazier]

Russ that owns the transportation company that, that provided your transportation said, man, he said, I'm surprised he Said Ryan. Ryan booked from like 10 in the morning to 10 at night every night for the Austin City Limits. I was like, that can't be him. That's. There's no way he's doing it for a friend and going to give it away. And then you told me you're like, no, my wife wants to go. I was like, okay, that's great.

[Ryan Deiss]

Yeah. And I'll tell you, man, there's no way to. To do it. Like, I couldn't figure out a way to hack it, to not have to. I mean, so you have the VIP thing, so you don't have the line to get in necessarily, but when you were there, there's just a lot of people.

[Roland Frazier]

A lot of people.

[Ryan Deiss]

And there's just no way to not be around a bunch of people that I could see. You know, we're at the VIP thing, but there's still just a button of people, so. And I just don't care that much about music. I'm just. I mean, music is fine. I.

[Roland Frazier]

Would you enjoy it, like, while you were there, despite the, you know, all of the. Because then there's the whole getting there and getting out, which is different than the experience of being there.

[Ryan Deiss]

When we were there, it was cool. I don't. We both kind of looked at each other when we were done. It's like, do we need to do this again? And we both kind of agreed. No, we don't. Like, I'm glad I did it. I can say I did it. I understand.

[Roland Frazier]

Do we need to do it again the next day, or do we need to do it again next year?

[Ryan Deiss]

Well, we did it. We did it today. We don't need to do it again next year.

[Roland Frazier]

So we're good.

[Ryan Deiss]

We're done.

[Roland Frazier]

That's impressive.

[Ryan Deiss]

We were gonna. I mean, if you're gonna. If you're gonna be a bear, be a grizzly. So I like it. There you go. What about you? Did you actually get to rest up afterwards?

[Roland Frazier]

No. As you. As you may remember, I flew to Las Vegas immediately after with one of our portfolio companies to meet with a bunch of people about acquiring it. And we had all of those meetings, and it went well and looks like it's going to move forward. So that was really. That was fun. Yeah. And then. And then came home to some other plans that were made. So it's one of those. It's. I knew, though, going in, there's like three weeks of. There's an off site tomorrow for two days. There's a trip to Salt Lake City. There's a trip to London. There's another event on the back of that. But come the end of this month, I'm going to get at least a day. Now it should go back to the relatively not terribly busy life. So that's. I'm looking forward to that. There's always seasons though, right?

[Ryan Deiss]

Yeah, yeah. And look, we complain, but we wouldn't have it any other way.

[Roland Frazier]

I think we're commenting, not complaining. We're commenting.

[Ryan Deiss]

I actually would have it another way. I don't think I would go to another music festival. Yeah, I'm not a music festival person.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah, that doesn't sound fun to me. Okay, well, let's talk about something that is of interest to the people who watch and listen to this program which you have from. I think some of the people at the event were asking some questions that you thought might be good. Is that where we were?

[Ryan Deiss]

Yeah, yeah. We had a really good question that I thought would be worthy of discussion and that was how do you hire for a role for which you know nothing about, specifically an executive leadership role? And I think every entrepreneur, if you achieve any level of scale, you're going to face this. Most of us, when we start our business and that business achieves any level of growth, it achieves growth because we're good at something. Maybe we're really good at marketing and so we're able to get leads. Maybe we're really good at sales and so we're able to convert them. Maybe we're really good at the, you know, at the product or the services side. So we're able to make people happy. But ultimately and we're sort of able to build enough people around us to kind of make up for the areas where we're a little bit weak. But if the business is really going to scale, we're going to have to hire some people that are truly exceptional at those functional roles that we're not good at and we don't know anything about and we're not really skilled at evaluating talent for that. So whether I'm a marketing person and I need to hire an amazing salesperson or I'm amazing at sales, I need to hire an amazing finance person. How do you go about hiring for a role that you know little or nothing about? Any tips, strategies on that front?

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah, I think so. I've been through quite a few hires lately and gone through different search firms, processes and I think that the processes are really helpful the very first thing. And you know, supplement all of this with your own reading of, of how to do this or watching videos, you know, ChatGPT or Gemini or Perplexity can be very helpful in helping you answer this question as well. To supplement what, what you need to know. But, but I think the very first thing is to determine what is the actual need in the organization and then document what does the person who is going to fill the need look like. So here's our need. What's the title typically of the person that fills that need? Then what are the requirements of. Or what is the job description? Sorry, of the job? Then what are the requirements for that person in terms of education, experience, et cetera? And that, like, just getting there to start to lay it out, I think is really important. And then I would also add to that, and I got this from one of the processes that one of the firms used is, you know, what does the personality look like as a cultural fit? You know, what, what, what kind of personality matches the culture of the company? And after doing that, then.

[Ryan Deiss]

Can I. Wait, can I stop you there? Because I don't know. I don't know how to do that because I don't know what the role is. Like, how do I write that? Do I, do I have to get a firm to help me with that?

[Roland Frazier]

No. No. So, so let's say, I mean, that's why I say just identify what's the need? What do we need? You know, so like, let's say pick the portfolio company of your choice. What do we need in that company?

[Ryan Deiss]

Let's say we need a. We're going to need a VP of sales.

[Roland Frazier]

Okay, well, you might. And you might not know that you need a VP of sales. It's like, so where is the company experiencing a challenge that we believe personnel could help with sales? Okay, great. Yeah. So what position do we need for sales? Well, what do we want? Like, what are the challenges that we're having there? Because it could be we're having challenges with having enough people to make the conversions that we need to handle the leads and stuff that are coming in. And then that might mean, well, then do we want a person who do we want to go after the symptom, which is we need another salesperson and so we're hiring for that, or do we see this as a continuing thing where we're going to need lots of salespeople and we're growing at a good enough clip that we'd like to actually get a sales recruiter or a sales manager to handle that? I don't know. You know, you look at this, look at the situation, if we Think for right now all we need is another salesperson. Okay, well then that's a different thing than we need somebody that's going to hire salespeople. And it's a different budget as well because we're going to have the person that's hiring the people and supervising them and we're also going to have the people. That sounds more expensive. And so we're going to assume for.

[Ryan Deiss]

This discussion we know we're hiring a functional leader. So it's a high level person and, but it's not an area that we're necessarily skilled at. So let's, let's operate under that assumption.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah, so, so then I would go, I would enlist the aid. If I don't have a, if I have a search firm, a good search firm is going to help you significantly with that. If you don't have a search firm helping, then I would go to AI and say, give me the. Say I am. You are a sales. Excuse me, you are a recruiter with 20 years of recruitment experience identifying sales team personnel for companies that are located in the United States doing between X and Y that are looking to grow their sales team. If that's what you're trying to do now you've got the role clearly defined. And then I would say what is the title of a person who would be able to perform the following tasks, List the tasks that you identified that you want done and what would the job description and the hiring requirements typically be for that? And I've gotten fantastic answers from that. Just in getting that first part done. That's not any of the interview part yet or anything yet. What are your thoughts on that?

[Ryan Deiss]

Well, yeah, I mean, so I'm trying to think if. So it seems like you're saying you don't know, so you need to tap an outside expert. Ideally, if you have the budget, go with a search firm who specializes in finding somebody for that functional. If you don't have that, AI can work as well. What about tapping? Have you ever leveraged just if you know somebody who's an expert in that area, somebody in your network to say, hey, can you help me find somebody? Or what? You know, I haven't had good luck.

[Roland Frazier]

With that because people are busy, everybody in my network is busy doing what they do. And if I'm serious about doing it, to me it's like selling your company, buying a company, any of those kinds of things. There's a process and you need to have a process that you're committed to. And so a part time. Help me when you can favor. That's like I could see. Do you know, here we've identified all of these things, here's what we've identified and give them the list and say, do you know any candidates that you would like to refer that might, that might serve in this position? That's a fair ask. I think to ask somebody to go through the process is not particularly fair if you're not going to hire them and pay them to do that and it's not their primary thing they're doing.

[Ryan Deiss]

I am so happy to hear you say that because this, this discussion came up in a group and that was what somebody said. They were like, oh yeah, just like, I know, like I've got some experience, I'm happy to help you with that. And what I said is just be really, really careful because this is a long term process. And so are you really signing up for helping them run an entire hiring process for this role where it's like, oh, well, no, like I can help you maybe review your job description and I can kind of tell you, are you going to help with the interviewing process? Are you going to interview the people for them?

[Roland Frazier]

Oh, no, I don't have time to reach out to. Right.

[Ryan Deiss]

Oh no. Okay. And so I think that's really, really important if there's somebody in your network who has hired for this role. And I think that's a question I would ask if you've got a good solid network of other business owners, entrepreneurs, to go to them and say, hey, I believe that I need to hire for this particular role. I've done my research. These are the problems that I have. I think I need to hire for this role. If you have hired for this role or you know somebody who has been hired for this role, I would love to talk to you about that. So I think it's worth having discussions and conversations. That's one way to learn about that. What should I be looking for people in this role? Who are the folks? This is a really important question to ask. Who are the people just below this role and who are the people just above? Because like, I didn't know, for example, that like the nuanced differences between a sales manager, a director of sales, and a VP of sales. Yeah. To me it's like, okay, so they just manage a different number of people. No, in most sales organizations, those are fundamentally different roles that you need at very different times. I mean, in most sales organizations, the VP of sales is largely a recruiting function. I mean, they're largely doing that. So you don't Necessarily hire a VP of sales if you want to run a seven person sales team. So talking to people to increase your knowledge of a particular role and to get clear on the job title and the specific. And I think getting really, really clear on that role title, that's really, really important. Having interviews and discussions with folks is important. But just getting help from a. To help you run the process. Yeah, it you need somebody who you're actually paying to run that process with you, not just somebody doing you a solid because they're not going to. It's just too much.

[Roland Frazier]

You need to set aside the time if you don't have the budget to, you know, to hire a firm. That's why I like identifying first what's the need in the gap and then feed that into AI and say what's the title of this person that does that? Rather than assuming or even saying give me all the different titles of salespeople and then seeing where you think the peg fits. I like, here's the, here is what I'm looking for, the solution I'm looking for. What do we call that? Right. That I find to be really helpful because then I can say to check the work. What is the job description of let's say a director of sales? And then let them do the job description and the deliverables for that position. And then does that match up to what we thought it did? Because I think that's like you need to know what you're looking for very, very specifically before you go looking for it. Because now the next step and this is what the firms do is they, they tap their network and all that. But basically more than anything they go out to LinkedIn. And what I liked that one of the firms why Scouts did for us was they sent us a. They said this is not a candidate. This is a profile of somebody that we think would be a candidate. Does this look like an ideal candidate for you? Because this is what we think is the ideal candidate. And then they use the parameters that you sign off on for that candidate. You're like, yeah, well I mean this person doesn't have experience or this person didn't work in a big enough company or they haven't seen growth from here to here, you know, or they weren't primarily responsible because they were assistant this or they haven't yet served in that level position. They were a level under that. So this would be a step up. I actually want somebody that's got position here or they've got too much experience. They're probably going to Be too expensive for us that like all that you get out of the way so that you nail your ideal hiring profile, you know, your ihp, and then you're going to go out, what they're going to do is they're going to talk to everybody they know and circulate that ideal avatar of that hire. And then they're also going to do searches in LinkedIn and they're going to come back and show you profiles of people that they think might be good. And then they're going to do outreach to a lot of people based on the ideal profile and their preliminary search. So they'll then reach out to all those people that meet that preliminary search and the ones that respond, they'll actually talk to, do a preliminary screening for, which is if you're hiring yourself, you can say, what would the preliminary screen be for? But it's primarily a conversation that says, what are you looking for? And if they're looking for the kind of thing that fits and you get an idea of what the salary range is, then you know that that tells you that that's time to interview. So once you've done that initial stuff, then you go to the interview and I would highly, highly, highly recommend a book called Motivation Based Interviewing. MBI is so much better than, you know, well, what do you think your biggest strength is? What do you think your biggest weaknesses? It actually goes into putting them in to scenarios that require them to comment in a way that isn't the PAT answer, you know. Well, generally my biggest, you know, fault is that I work too hard and I take, you know, I take things.

[Ryan Deiss]

Too seriously and I just care so much.

[Roland Frazier]

I just care too much. You know, it's like, okay, the. This is basically, tell me about a time when you were in a team, when you were part of a team and someone wasn't pulling their weight. You weren't the team leader, but you were part of a team and one of the team members wasn't pulling their weight. Tell me about what happened and how you handled that situation. I mean, that tells like. So it gives you situations that they would have experienced in the past that they're going to have to tell you a lot about how they deal with things, how they deal with conflict, how they deal with challenges, with management, how they deal with underperformers, you know, all of those kinds of things, which is much, much more valuable, I think, than the pat, you know, answers.

[Ryan Deiss]

So then go through and screen them. Yeah, because on that front, how do you come up with the list of questions to ask because again, I don't know anything about this role.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah, right. I, I found it to be extremely helpful to go to AI and I got, I mean it's really funny because even the search firms that I've talked to said those are some of the better questions that I've seen, you know, really?

[Ryan Deiss]

So just going AI and saying what are the interview questions that you would ask?

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah. And, and I mean you don't get the best answer right off the bat. You, you need to go back to what you want to, you know, so, so when you're looking for the question you say I'm interviewing candidates for now, you know, the position for a director of sales position who generally have the following qualifications. What are the questions that I should ask when the reason that I'm making the hire is to solve for the following things and then you include the things that, that caused you in the first place to want to hire the person. Then it'll generate those questions around that and then you just pepper in your own, you know, your own experience of interviewing people generally, you know, so for me, like even if I'm interviewing somebody for a position, I don't know, I want to know how passionate are they about what they do. So I'll ask what are the resources that you consume to keep up on your, on your, you know, on sales? And if they go, oh well, every year I go to the, you know, the XYZ convention and I subscribe to, you know, sales, blah blah, blah. And you know, I'm, you know, who pick your salesperson of choice. I'm a Grant Cardone, a Jeffrey Gitomer, you know, whoever, a solution selling, you know, fan person. So I've read all of that stuff and I really am passionate about that and blah blah, you know. Well, now I know that's somebody I want to, you know, that like they actually are interested in that position. But I'll tell you, most of the people can't answer that question. They're like, oh, well, you know, I read blogs and stuff like that. I'm like, what blogs? Yeah, I mean, I can't think of any right now. You know.

[Ryan Deiss]

Okay, you know, the good ones.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah.

[Ryan Deiss]

But I guess the thing question I would have on that is, but if I'm not an expert, how do I evaluate the question? I mean, obviously they don't have an answer and if they're him and Hawen, then it's not a good answer.

[Roland Frazier]

Who sounds best?

[Ryan Deiss]

But like, let's say it's more of a fact based question. Right. If you're going to ask somebody a scenario based question, again, if it's, if it's sales or it could, maybe it's even a finance related thing, how do you handle this particular thing? I'm not a finance expert. I don't know enough about the subject to know if they really responded correctly.

[Roland Frazier]

So that's.

[Ryan Deiss]

What do you do in those kinds of.

[Roland Frazier]

I mean, I have never found myself unable to evaluate from going through the process that we just talked about because the answers to the questions that you want are relatively self evident. I probably wouldn't ask a question like how do you lock a cell in an Excel spreadsheet when you're doing a pivot table to a finance person? Because I don't care, you know, I'm, I have to assume basic competence in those things. My questions are more experiential and fit, you know, with the culture and can they handle the specific things that I want to do. So let's say that I want a sales director for a rapidly growing sales team, which was our example. If they don't have experience doing that or they only have experience at a company that is significantly smaller, that's going to be a challenge. And so I feel like those answers are self evident. But what we've done after that is once we've identified, we'll narrow it down to like three candidates and then we'll hire all three of them as an independent contractor to do a project that typically takes 30 days to do. We'll pay them to do the project and then we'll get. Usually it's a strategic, it's not like go out and hire people for us. It's, you know, what's the strategic plan that you would put together for us to hire the next 20 salespeople that we need to hire in the next three months and then each of them would do that. We'd pay them for their time for doing it and then we'd look at the result, we would interview them about the result and ask our questions. And then if we like the work product and we like the answers and we like the person, then we're going to probably make an offer.

[Ryan Deiss]

Going back to the, to the thing about not knowing if the answer is the right one, I think that this is really important for everybody listening. You're not going to know if the answer they made is the right one because you're hiring somebody who ideally knows more about this than you do. And I think that this is just something as, you know, as the business owner, you're going to have to die to a little bit. Now, if this is something that you're truly worried about and you want to make sure you're not getting completely snowballed, you can have some, you know, somebody you could hire a consultant to help with the interview process to ask, like you said, some basic competency questions, you know, to do some background checking to make sure. But if somebody has a resident, you know, somebody has some work history, they're gonna, they will have done the work, they will have done the job like it is there. And so you're not really evaluating them on their process because they should be bringing a better process than you have. You just want to make sure they have one. So when you're asking them, like you said, the scenario based questions, you're not listening to grade them on, well, do I think that's good or not? Again, ideally they've got better ideas than you do. That's the difference between this and. So I just, that's, I'm kind of, I asked the question, but, but it's not really about you saying like, ooh, did they get it right? Yeah, that's not the point. You don't know if they got it right or not. Yeah, like you're just trying to see like do they have a process? If you're truly concerned about it and you want to make sure you can absolutely hire third party experts. I've been brought in, I know when somebody was hiring marketers, they just wanted to make sure the person wasn't totally full of crap. I've been hired by friends for. I don't do this as a regular thing. Friends like, hey, can I pay you for a consult type deal just to sit in on some interviews to make sure that high, high level position. They want to make sure somebody's not totally full of crap. Fine, I'll do that kind of thing. But that's where again, running a basic background check, calling referrals, doing the references. Did this person actually work at this company? You know, basic competency check, check, check, check, check. You're just trying to find out do they have a process. Yeah. And also like you said, the having them do the test. Have you ever had somebody push back on the, on the test or not the test, I'm sorry, the paid gig.

[Roland Frazier]

No, I haven't. I mean like push back. Like I'm not going to do that. No, that's, you know, they may fall out of the process, you know, until the people that are doing it, you know, I don't know if It's a fit and maybe that, you know, so I don't, I don't know directly that that caused anybody to fall out directly, but, but that would be an easy no for us if it was the case. The other thing that I didn't mention is as far as answering, you know, the questions and how do you know if it's a good answer is they're usually being interviewed by whoever they're going to direct report to, plus the major stakeholders of the company. So, you know, if they're at a higher level position, they're going to get at least three different people that are interviewing them and those people are going to talk about what they thought about it as well. And I think that's an important part of the process.

[Ryan Deiss]

Yeah, exactly. So it's not your job if you are the CEO, if you're the business owner and you're hiring somebody for a role that you're not an expert in, you are not evaluating them for competency within that role. I think that's the most important part. You're evaluating them based on obviously culture fit. But also, you know, when you're putting them in these scenario based questions, can they hold up like, do they, do they seem to have process? Like that's my thing. Do they, do they bring a plan to the party? Do they, do they bring a process to this? Are they bringing systems to this? Because if somebody is operating at a high level and they're not bringing any systems to this, I get very, very worried.

[Roland Frazier]

Yep, agree.

[Ryan Deiss]

Cool. Anything you would add to this, to this discussion?

[Roland Frazier]

No, I think that's, I like what we covered. I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of great points to think about and you know, would love to hear from you guys as well out there in the world telling us any discoveries or tips that you've got that you found to be helpful. If that would maybe supplement the stuff that we talked about.

[Ryan Deiss]

I agree.

[Roland Frazier]

Awesome. Well, thanks guys. If you like this, please share it. We love getting this shared around to other people. And if you have any thoughts, comments, questions, feelings or emotions about it, please let us know on the socials where you can get us at forward slash businesslunch most places or Ryan Dice or Roland Frazier. And.

[Ryan Deiss]

Yeah, yeah, we had it. We had a really good question that I thought would be worthy of discussion and that was how do you hire for a role for which you know nothing about, specifically an executive leadership role. And I think every entrepreneur, if you achieve any level of scale, you're going to Face this. Most of us, when we start our business and that business achieves any level of growth, it achieves growth because we're good at something. Maybe we're really good at marketing and so we're able to get leads. Maybe we're really good at sales, so we're able to convert them. Maybe we're really good at the, you know, at the product or the services side. So we're able to make people happy. But ultimately, and we're sort of able to build enough people around us to kind of make up for the areas where we're a little bit weak. But if the business is really going to scale, we're going to have to hire some people that are truly exceptional at those functional roles that we're not good at and we don't know anything about. And we're not really skilled at evaluating talent for that. Hey everybody.

[Roland Frazier]

Roland Frazier and Ryan Deiss here with another episode of the business launch podcast. Ryan, we had a big event. We traveled all over the everywhere. We did all the things, worked all the times. How are you doing, man?

[Ryan Deiss]

I'm still so frickin tired. I am so tired because you're right. Yes. We had a, we had a big three day event. You and I are both of the introverted variety. I was incredibly tired afterwards. All I wanted to do was curl up in a ball and not be around people. And then my wife, who I love, adore, cherish more than any other human being on planet earth. Yeah, she said, so I live in Austin, Texas. Austin has live music capital of the world, self proclaimed has a big music festival every year called Austin City Limits. And she said we've never been, we should go. And so we got tickets to the.

[Roland Frazier]

Like to just pop in and then leave.

[Ryan Deiss]

Oh, that's exactly how it goes. Yeah. So we went to the Austin City Limits Music festival right after this event ends, I get to go and be around gobs of strangers in the 97 degree heat. Which normally it's quite nice in Austin in, you know, this time of year. Not this year, my friend. Hotter.

[Roland Frazier]

Hot.

[Ryan Deiss]

Hot. Freaking. So astoundingly and, and disgustingly hot. So yeah, no, no rest for the weary.

[Roland Frazier]

Russ that owns the transportation company that, that provided your transportation said, man, he said, I'm surprised. He said, Ryan, Ryan booked from like 10 in the morning to 10 at night every night for the Austin City Limits. I was like, that can't be him. There's no way he's doing it for a friend and going to give it away. And then you told Me. You're like, no, my wife wants to go. I was like, okay, that's great.

[Ryan Deiss]

Yeah. And I'll tell you, man, there's no way to do it. I couldn't figure out a way to hack it, to not have to. I mean, so you have the VIP thing, so you don't have the line to get in necessarily, but when you were there, there's just a lot of.

[Roland Frazier]

People, A lot of people.

[Ryan Deiss]

And there's just no way to not be around a bunch of people that I could see. You know, we're at the VIP thing, but there's still just a butt ton of people, so. And I just don't care that much about music. I'm just. I mean, music is fine.

[Roland Frazier]

Did you enjoy it, like while you were there, despite the, you know, all of the. Because. Because then there's the whole getting there and getting out, which is different than the experience of being there.

[Ryan Deiss]

When we were there, it was cool. I don't. We both kind of looked at each other when we were done. It's like, do we need to do this again? And we both kind of agreed. No, we don't. Like, I'm glad I did it. I can say I did it. I understand.

[Roland Frazier]

Do we need to do it again the next day or do we need to do it again next year?

[Ryan Deiss]

Well, we did it. We did it the days. We don't need to do it again next year.

[Roland Frazier]

So we're good.

[Ryan Deiss]

We're done.

[Roland Frazier]

That's impressive.

[Ryan Deiss]

We were gonna. I mean, if you're gonna. If you're gonna be a bear, be a grizzly. So I like it. There you go. What about you? Did you actually get to rest up afterwards?

[Roland Frazier]

No. As you, as you may remember, I flew to Las Vegas immediately after with one of our portfolio companies to meet with a bunch of people about acquiring it. And we had all of those meetings and it went well and looks like it's going to move forward. So that was really. That was fun. Yeah. And then. And then came home to some other plans that were made. So it's one of those. It's. I knew though, going in, there's like three weeks of. There's an off site tomorrow for two days. There's a trip to Salt Lake City, there's a trip to London, there's another event on the back of that. But come the end of this month, I'm going to get at least a day. No, it should go back to the relatively not terribly busy life. So I'm looking forward to that. There's always Seasons though, right?

[Ryan Deiss]

Yeah, yeah. And look, we complain, but we wouldn't have it any other way.

[Roland Frazier]

I think we're commenting. We're not complaining, we're commenting.

[Ryan Deiss]

I actually would have it another way. I don't think I would go to another music festival. Yeah, I'm not a music festival person.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah, that doesn't sound fun to me. Okay, well, let's talk about something that is of interest to the people who watch and listen to this program which you have from. I think some of the people at the event were asking some questions that you thought might be good. Is that where we were?

[Ryan Deiss]

Yeah, yeah. We had a really good question that I thought would be worthy of discussion and that was how do you hire for a role for which you know nothing about, specifically an executive leadership role? And I think every entrepreneur, if you achieve any level of scale, you're going to face this. Most of us, when we start our business and that business achieves any level of growth, it achieves growth because we're good at something. Maybe we're really good at marketing and so we're able to get leads. Maybe we're really good at sales, so we're able to convert them. Maybe we're really good at the, you know, the product or the services side. So we're able to make people happy. But ultimately and we're sort of able to build enough people around us to kind of make up for the areas where we're a little bit weak. But if the business is really going to scale, we're going to have to hire some people that are truly exceptional at those functional roles that we're not good at and we don't know anything about and we're not really skilled at evaluating talent for that. So whether I'm a marketing person and I need to hire an amazing salesperson or I'm amazing at sales, I need to hire an amazing finance person. How do you go about hiring for a role that you know little or nothing about? Any tips, strategies on that front?

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah, I think so. I've been through quite a few hires lately and gone through different search firms processes and I think that the processes are really helpful. The very first thing. And supplement all of this with your own reading of how to do this or watching videos, you know, chat, GPT or Gemini or Perplexity can be very helpful in helping you answer this question as well. To supplement what, what you need to know. But, but I think the very first thing is to determine what is the actual need in the organization and then document what does the person who is going to fill the need look like? So here's our need. What's the title typically of the person that fills that need Need? Then what are the requirements of. Or what is the job description? Sorry, of the job? Then what are the requirements for that person in terms of education, experience, etc. And that, like, just getting there to start to lay it out, I think is really important. And then I would also add to that, and I got this from one of the processes that one of the firms used is, you know, what does the personality look like as a cultural fit? You know, what, what, what kind of personality matches the culture of the company? And after doing that, then.

[Ryan Deiss]

Can I. Wait, can I stop you there? Because I don't know. I don't know how to do that because I don't know what the role is. Like, how do I write that? Do I. Do I have to get a firm to help me with that?

[Roland Frazier]

No. No. So, so let's say. I mean, that's why I say just identify what's the need? What do we need? You know, so like, let's say pick the portfolio company of your choice. What do we need in that company?

[Ryan Deiss]

Let's say we need a. We're going to need a VP of sales.

[Roland Frazier]

Okay, well, you might. And you might not know that you need a VP of sales. It's like, so where is the company experiencing a challenge that we believe personnel could help with sales? Okay, great. Yeah. So what position do we need for sales? Well, what do we want? Like, what are the challenges that we're having there? Because it could be we're having challenges with having enough people to make the conversions that we need to handle the leads and stuff that are coming in. And then that might mean, well, then do we want a person who do we want to go after the symptom, which is we need another salesperson and so we're hiring for that. Or do we see this as a continuing thing where we're going to need lots of salespeople and we're growing at a good enough clip that we'd like to actually get a sales recruiter or a sales manager to handle that? I don't know. You know, you look at this, look at the situation. If we think for right now all we need is another salesperson, okay, well, then that's a different thing than we need somebody that's going to hire salespeople, and it's a different budget as well, because we're going to have the person that's hiring the people and supervising them. And we're also going to have the people. That sounds more expensive. And so we're going to assume for.

[Ryan Deiss]

This discussion we know we're hiring a functional leader. So it's a high level person, but it's not an area that we're necessarily skilled at. So let's operate under that assumption.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah, so then I would go, I would enlist the aid. If I don't have a, if I have a search firm, a good search firm is going to help you significantly with that. If you don't have a search firm helping, then I would go to AI and say, give me the. Say I am. You are a sales. Excuse me, you are a recruiter with 20 years of recruitment experience identifying sales team personnel for companies that are located in the United States doing between X and Y that are looking to grow their sales team. If that's what you're trying to do now you've got the role clearly defined. And then I would say what is the title of a person who would be able to perform the following tasks, List the tasks that you identified that you want done and what would the job description and the hiring requirements typically be for that? And I've gotten fantastic answers from that. Just in getting that first part done. That's not any of the interview part yet or anything yet. What are your thoughts on that?

[Ryan Deiss]

Well, yeah, I mean, so I'm trying to think if. So it seems like you're saying you don't know, so you need to tap an outside expert. Ideally, if you have the budget, go with a search firm who specializes in finding somebody for that functional. If you don't have that, AI can work as well. What about tapping. Have you ever leveraged just if you know somebody who's an expert in that area, somebody in your network to say, hey, can you help me find somebody? Or I haven't had.

[Roland Frazier]

Good luck with that. Hey, Roland Fraser here. If you're looking for a way to grow your business exponentially to get more customers and ultimately increase your wealth, there's no faster way to do it than to acquire other businesses that already have the customers, products, services, teams and media that you want. If you want to double your sales, just acquire a company that has the same sales as yours. It sounds simple, but far too many people end up starting new businesses that fail and forget that they could skip all the hard stuff and just acquire one that already exists. There's a reason why private equity firms, family offices, big companies like Apple, Google and some of the smartest entrepreneurs on the planet do not start new businesses. From scratch. They acquire already successful businesses, and when they do it, they instantly increase their sales, their profits. If they want market share, they increase that. They can get new products and services to offer, all instantly. Hey look, 90% of new businesses fail. 90%. Why not acquire an already successful business and increase your chances of success by 900%? What most people don't realize is you can acquire highly profitable businesses with no money out of your own pocket in pretty much any country in the world, regardless of your credit, and without having to go find a bunch of investors or needing any experience. Look, I've been acquiring businesses for over 30 years now, and I cover the whole process in my EPIC Investing Strategy training, and I want to give it to you 100% free. Just visit businesslunchpodcast.com epic to get your free access to my EPIC Investing Training right now. While it's available.