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- [00:01]
A
Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of the business launch podcast with Roland Frazier. That's me and Ryan Deiss, who, depending on whether you're watching this on video or not, might be on my left or right. I don't know. To me, he's sitting right in front of me. Ryan, I wanted to chat today about founder identity. So we have this at Scalable, this idea that people are going through one of five evolutions. They're going through either this role based thing where they're going from doing to delegating, going from being a worker to a manager. They're going from delegating to designing, going from the manager to CEO and being a true CEO, going from designing to directing, moving from the CEO to director. And they might wear these higher hats at the same time. Truth is, some people wear all the, all the hats and then they move ideally from director to investor as they leave the board and just become an owner of the company. But everything else is being run and eventually if they exit the whole thing, they're divested. So the challenge though that we see all the time is identity lag. Where this legacy identity of I'm the worker that does everything, gets in the way of the role that they're in right now and causes it to really kill their ability to scale effectively. So that they're, they're acting as a CEO in the CEO role, but they're still doing all the, the client or customer facing work and, or they're acting like a head of sales and they're, you know, or they're acting like the, the best salesperson the company had and they're really creating, uh, and I, I, this, this came to me because, and I'm not wearing it. I think I'm, I think I'm gonna let it go. But I was wearing this aura ring that basically says, you know, this is how well you're sleeping. I wanted to have better sleep and so I wanted to what measure gets, what gets measured, gets managed. So I wanted to kind of, you know, like keep track of it. I did, you know, basically all it does is says, you're not sleeping enough. And I'm like, I already knew this. So what?
- [02:09]
B
It did say I'm sleeping worse.
- [02:12]
A
It did. So what I did, you know, with encouraging messages like, it's going to be okay. And I'm like, I hate you. So of course it's going to be okay. I don't need any help. So what it did say though was it tracked. And this is probably the thing that annoyed me most was what they called sleep debt. And so like your sleep debt is the hours that you're cheating yourself from over each day. And eventually. And I, you know, sometimes I had none and sometimes I had, you know, off the scale. But it, it seems like there's this identity debt that, that accrues too, because the longer that you're operating in the wrong legacy identity or in a legacy identity, the more you're damaging your company. Its ability to scale, its leverage sales, it's bankable profits, it's transferable value. All the things that scalable teaches make a company scalable. And so I thought it'd be interesting to talk about. Do you see that happening? And how can you tell when you are creating this, this legacy identity debt? And how do you fix it?
- [03:22]
B
Oh, I mean, this is the, this is probably the main thing that we work with with our, you know, clients and with Our portfolio company CEOs more than anything else. People come to us and they're like, I want help with operations, the scale or finance or growth. And ultimately there's always tactical things that can and should be done. But when we look at these businesses, the thing that's really holding it back is the founder, CEO and their identity. And so this is the big nut to crack. And you can tell, like, how can you tell that you're not operating in the right role? It's always just when things get hard, when they get bad, when they get chaotic, what do you default to? And what we almost always do is we default back to our previous comfort zone. Yeah. And, and so, and the reason that this happens is, in my experience, nobody told us that if we do our job right, the reward at the end is you effectively get fired from that job and you get promoted to a new one. But nobody tells us that, like, when this happens in our, in our own company, with our own employees, if somebody does a phenomenal job, we give them a promotion, we give them a new title, we give them new responsibilities. And if they're doing things that they shouldn't be doing anymore because they've been promoted, we go, hey, why are you doing that? You know, you now have people who should be doing that. And so our team members all have the benefit of not just, I mean, but I think it's important, but they have the benefit of an actual formal identity change. You are no longer called this, you're now called to this. They also have the benefit of accountability if, if they have good leaders to tell them, you're not allowed to do that anymore. And, and so the process. So. So I guess yes. And we can get into kind of how do we solve for this. But it is absolutely a problem and is absolutely the thing that holds companies back. It's also the thing that, that is going to run off the people who you most want to come along for the ride. Because you're going to hire people for certain things and then you're going to revert back to doing their job and if they have any dignity whatsoever, they're going to quit or you're going to get frustrated and you're going to fire them. Because if it's got to be done right, it's got to be done by you.
- [05:36]
A
So the first thing would be, I think like the identification. Conscious incompetence is where we like to start, right? Ideally, well, in the scale it's unconscious incompetence and then conscious incompetence. Knowing you know first you don't even know you're doing this wrong. We're telling you now you might be doing it wrong. How do you know if you are suffering from the creation of identity debt? It's if you find yourself doing something that you've either hired someone else to do for you or should have, or that's not in the job description of the role that you're in right now. Which I think what you said there is really, really important. And I've been thinking exactly the thing. There is no defining event that is a promotion and there is no change of role. So you're always basically the owner/CEO no matter what you're doing. And the only way that you really know is for you to start with determining what role should I be in right now. So are you the worker? Because you have no one. Great. Then you are at the lowest level of the first evolution and you're going to want to start delegating. This is the classic Gerber, you know, E myth kind of thing, right? Don't work in the business, work on it. So if you have become a manager though and you've hired people and now you are promoted to this working on it person, you know, you are the manager, no longer the worker. Then if you find yourself doing your workers jobs or doing worker jobs at all anyway, then you're creating this debt. So this is how you know that you're in the wrong place, doing the wrong thing, creating identity debt. If you are the CEO and you have managers and workers, then if you find yourself managing the workers or doing the work, then you are in the wrong role, right? You're creating this identity debt and just kind of go up the scale. So now we've got a way to be conscious of our incompetence at, you know, at avoiding the creation of identity debt that the, the conscious competence of we're not performing our role. Because everything that you take away, by the way, from the current role that you should be in, devoting it to a legacy role, is also causing you to underperform in your current role. You're cheating yourself and your company there as well.
- [08:06]
B
So you wouldn't let an employee do that.
- [08:08]
A
Right. So now we know that.
- [08:12]
B
Just real quick on that. Sorry. Because a tactical thing that everybody could and should do right now, write your, write your job description and write an honest job description and give yourself an honest job title. And it's almost always going to be a, a two part job title. So it's going to be CEO and, and so it's CEO because that's, that's you like, whether you like it or not. And then you also might be head of marketing or head of product. And so, and the best way to do this is to simply do a brain dump of all the tasks that you do. You can also connect like your, your calendar and your inbox and Slack and whatever you use to AI and say, create a list of all the things that I do and then say what's the person called who does these things? And then write an honest, realistic job description based on what you should do. That includes these are the things that I should do. And this is just as important, if not more important. And these are things I do not do. And the things you do and the things you do not do are what define your CEO and role. And this needs to be evaluated at least once a year, ideally, you know, quarterly, take a look at it and rewrite your job description. If you really want to take it to the next level, compensate yourself. Pay yourself a salary of your real role. And now when you give yourself a promotion, you also pay yourself more money.
- [09:30]
C
Love it.
- [09:30]
A
Okay, so now we're aware we're consciously incompetent. How do we get consciously competent? How do we fix this and stop accruing this identity debt?
- [09:44]
B
Yeah, I think it's, I mean, maybe I jumped ahead a little bit, but I think that's exactly it. We have to name our role today. We have to define our role today. And we have to ask ourselves, is this the role that I absolutely should have? Like, is this the essential role that, that I need to be in?
- [09:59]
A
For where? For where?
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B
The stage, the stage of this company Today. And if the answer is yes and you're in the right role, then write up what that role is and stick to it.
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A
Yeah.
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B
If you look at it and you go, I'm not. I am performing the job of a lower role than the one that I actually should be doing.
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A
This is still awareness though, right? So, so to fix it. Because I would say time study also.
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B
Right?
- [10:23]
A
Time study. That's is.
- [10:24]
B
That's what I taskless brain dump is. Time study. Yeah, same thing, kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [10:29]
A
I, well, task. I think the advantage of the time study over the task dump is that one is. It's. It's like balance sheet versus income statement. Balance sheet is a snapshot in time of a moment, and an income statement measures a period. So I think that to really understand it and, and force you to be honest, it's very simple. Just what are the roles in your company? You can make a list of those and then just, you know, write the time that you're spending on each of those roles and that would be helpful. And then the corrective is time study plus analyze time study plus identify gaps where you are reverting to these prior roles and then identify why are you doing that and what is the fix? The why is probably it's either comfort work. Just like comfort food, we eat it and it's, you know, makes us feel terrible after, but it sure does feel good in the moment. That's kind of what comfort work is. You're. You're reverting to, you know, being a salesperson because you like talking to people and you don't want to have to deal with, you know, how do I balance the budget for the deficit that's coming, you know, next quarter, which is a more CEO ish kind of thing to do. And then you got to say, who should be doing the role that I'm doing and why do I feel the need to do it? Because if it's comfort work, it's making you feel good. We've got to figure out how do we make you feel good doing the role that you're supposed to be doing. If it is because I question the competence of the person or they are not performing, then it's got to be how do I help that person fill the role that they should be filling? How do I teach them to push back against me coming in and trying to do their work for them? And then if they can't do that and I can't help them self correct through education, training, or other support, it's probably remove them to another role in the company or let them go.
- [12:24]
B
Yeah. If you don't have the person on your team, then you're still doing the role. You don't get to rewrite your job description yet, but if you do, which is the case more times than not, what I've done in the past and what I encourage our clients to do, is to go to the person who you should, who should be doing this job, doing this role, doing this, this aspect of, of your role, and go to them and say, I owe you an apology. I. I've been doing your job now. And you can. Here's the thing. You can say this. Even if it truly is your fault, you've been hoarding and they're awesome. You can also say it even if the reason you've been hoarding it is because you just don't trust them. Because the reality is, is it is your fault. One way or another. You either didn't fully equip this person or you made a bad hire. Either way, good news, your fault. But so you can go to them, say, you know, I owe you an apology, I've been doing your job, and you know, I shouldn't do that. So today we're going to have a reset. I'm going to make sure that I make it clear I'm not doing this anymore. I need to know for my own benefit, what do you need from me that I haven't given you or you just need reinforced so that you can fully own this? So that I don't keep hoarding something that is rightfully yours that's going to give you the opportunity for growth and you have that conversation with them. Because what that's going to do is, number one, it's going to be that defining line where you, you're making it clear and you're building accountability, even if it's downward accountability, but you're building accountability that I'm not going to do this anymore. I need you to. If I do it, tell me, hey, that's my job, boss. Right. I'm giving you not just permission, but I'm telling you you need to do that. But what you're also doing is you're making it clear to yourself that you've done everything that you can do to equip this person up to be successful, which means you can hand it over to them. And if they succeed, amazing. And if they don't, now it's a dialogue for how do we make sure that you have everything you need? And if they still don't, then it's clear you got the wrong person. Get them out. Get somebody else in. But I've seen people say before, I
- [14:13]
A
got to hoard it.
- [14:13]
B
I got to hoard it because, you know, they don't know how to do it. It's because I haven't shown them, okay. And they're like. And I feel really bad. Cause they've been here for six months. It's like, okay, cool. Then just have a reset. Go to him, say you're sorry. It's one of those powerful words in leadership. And then start over, fresh, clean slate.
- [14:31]
A
What do you say to people that say, I don't have time to do that. I don't have time to help them get to where they need.
- [14:39]
B
That's why I go to them and I say, what do you need from me?
- [14:42]
A
Right? So they say, I need this, this, and this. And you're like, I just don't have
- [14:45]
B
time to do that. We've got to figure out a way to. I don't have time to necessarily give you that. So you're gonna have to maybe watch me do it for the next few times then. I mean, you're doing the job anyway, right? So what we're trying because.
- [14:56]
A
Because that's something you hear from. I mean, I know you do too. All up and down the scale of management, I hear. I just.
- [15:01]
B
I don't have time.
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A
I don't have time to do the thing that's going to help solve the problems that I've got. So.
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B
Well, we.
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A
That's not an acceptable answer. That's not a state that can continue.
- [15:10]
B
Yeah, T. It's fungible. Like, all we're going to do is we're going to say, okay, cool, Then. Then if that's the case, then what we're going to do for the next little bit is the next time I do this, you're going to watch me, or I'm going to record it, or I'm going to do this and this. And then it's going to be on you to systemize and it's going to be on you to do that. So you begin the handoff process while you do the thing that you just keep freaking doing anyway. So no, no time added there. And you're not saying to yourself, okay, well, the next time I do this, I'm going to create the documentation or I'm going to. No, the next time I do this, you come along for the ride. You document it, you tell me what you think or video it or whatever.
- [15:47]
A
Whatever you do to make it happen.
- [15:49]
B
Exactly. Whatever needs to be done. Is it somebody following you around with a video? Is it like, I don't know, but, like, you need to be there, you know, either in person or virtually. And then you go and build the stuff for it. Ask me what questions you have. The asking of the questions, the optimization shouldn't be any more time because they're starting to do this stuff now. And then eventually it just gets handed over to them, and you've just freed up that time. So, no, it shouldn't take any more time from you than what you're doing now. Should be less.
- [16:19]
A
Yeah. And then if the role is not there, if the. You're doing something and there's not a person there to do that, then it's. You got to hire that person. Right?
- [16:29]
B
Yeah. And now what you can say is, this is the part that I shouldn't be doing. Go over to AI. Hey, chatgpt. Hey, Claude. Hey, Gemini. What's the person called that does this thing, and you hire the person who does the thing that you're doing with the job title and description, and it's going to give you the questions to ask, and then once you bring them on, you go through the process we just described.
- [16:50]
A
Yeah.
- [16:51]
B
From day one.
- [16:52]
A
So I think, like, that's a pretty good. Understand that the cons. Like, right now you might not realize that you're building this identity debt. We've given you a way to recognize that that is something that exists, and it exists in almost every business I've ever looked at. I'm guessing you've experienced the same.
- [17:11]
B
All of them. Yeah.
- [17:13]
A
And. And then. Okay, great. Now I. I know that I've got this challenge. How do I start eliminating it then? We've given you a process for doing that. And, um, and it's. It's very simple. Like, this isn't a super long episode, because this is something that is insidious and will absolutely hurt and is hurting the value of your company. Right now. It's demoralizing the people whose jobs you are doing. It is holding you back from evolving as a leader and a manager. It is holding them back from evolving as people that can come up in the company. And it's holding the whole company back in terms of all the things that make your company scalable. So take the time to do this, because even if you don't believe that you've got it, you do. And we all do. I mean, we do. Like, we're aware of it, and it catches us all the time. Right. And at least you eventually become like, you know, no, that's. I was going to slip back into that. Right. And you become the person that says no to the cigarette, no to the alcohol, you know, whatever. The thing is, that is poison to me. I need to not do that because I know that what I'm totally after, the health of myself or the health of my company, is completely dependent on me recognizing this and saying no and taking the corrective action every time. So we would love to hear about what you discovered is holding you back. What is the identity debt? What are the roles that you're reversing to? What's the role that you should be in? Please share that with us on Social. Ryan and I both have socials at Forward slash our names almost everywhere. You can do it with Business Lunch as well, but that's something that we'd really like to hear from you and, and, and help you with. Even if you, if you've got challenges with it, if you found this helpful, please share it with a friend. If you've got somebody that you know is doing this, please share it with them. If you're an employee and your boss is doing your job, share this with them. It'll free you up. And if you're the person that is doing this as not an owner but as a boss, think about that too. That, that the people that are working from you are going to be better employees and you're going to be a better manager if you are aware of this and start acting on it. So with that, we will see you next time on Business Lunch. Yeah, I thought that was a short one.
- [19:35]
C
Hey, business owners, I've got a quick question for you. Do you feel like you're missing the data you need to make strong business decisions? If so, it's probably time to build a CEO dashboard. It's an easy way to get everyone in your company literally on the same page, focusing on the numbers that matter. So the scalable company put together a free spreadsheet template that will give you everything you need to deploy your own dashboard. And to make it even easier, Ryan Deiss recorded a short training on how to use it. If you want to get your hands on the template, go to businesslunchpodcast.com dashboard. That's businesslunchpodcast.com dashboard and you can download it for free.