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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to another episode of Business Lunch where Matt is leaving the room as we start the podcast. He had an opportunity when we ended the last podcast to leave the room quietly, but now he's chosen to get up here and leave the room noisily. And I just want to point that out on this podcast.
- [00:16]
B
Yeah, it's important everybody know that we do have a team behind this show and frequently they just leave us hanging.
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A
Yeah, yeah. So thanks, Matt. No, anyway, screw it.
- [00:25]
B
We'll be on our own. We're doing it live.
- [00:27]
A
I wanted to talk for a minute about something that came up recently. So in one of the companies that we acquired part of, in one of the businesses that we've got, we have had some, some post integration kind of challenges. And part of it was that we, that we did a deal where the original company, it was basically 50% acquisition of another company that was a significant company, you know, doing great, great CEO and great team. And, and we had a meeting recently and it was really, it was an interesting meeting because we had two teams that are very, very loyalty, very, very loyal to their companies. And it had got kind of gotten into a situation where there was finger pointing, you know, maybe some kind of snarky emails and messages going back, but not a regular meeting schedule and not a full realization that we were on the same team. And so it, it was an interesting time because it took a little bit of coaching. So I went into a meeting that was a little, you know, a little charged with energy on it. And, and both of the, like I said, both of the companies, they're good people at the companies, they're reasonable people, they're nice people. I'm, I think that they're both happy that they're working with each other. But you can, with communications, if your mind is not in the right place in terms of like, where does this all sit, then you might accidentally build up some resentment or, you know, or some energy around some negativity that doesn't need to be there. And so I thought it'd be kind of interesting to talk about in any situation from a communication standpoint, mindset wise, thinking about where do you sit when you are having interactions with all the different people that you're interacting with, whether it's in a personal relationship, whether it is in a intra company, within your own company or inter company relationships. But I'm going to start it with the, probably the most removed, which would be you are in a company and you're meeting with another company that you now have kind of come together and that could be through a merger or an acquisition or whatever. But you've really got two cultures, two brands, and there's a little bit of friction in kind of getting together. To me, like, the very first thing that I opened the meeting with, I said, listen, I want everybody here, particularly because they were saying, you know, well, they said, and, you know, at that company and blah, blah, blah. This is. I said, we have to realize this is our company. This is our company. Like, we're all here because we have this company that we own together, and we need to be aligned in that. That it's not, you know, he said, she said. They said, we said, it is. Look, we've got some challenges that we know that exist. And our goal isn't to point fingers and say the. They need to fix that. It's. There's. There is no they. There's only we. And if we're actually thinking about getting to where we want to get and we truly believe it's our company. And then I went around, I was like, you know, it's our company. Yeah, it's our. Okay, great. So let's get our language right, right off the beginning, because there's a lot, like, a lot of people just glean over the language stuff, and they don't think about, you know, the words of they versus we. And I said, so let's talk about we. And a couple people caught themselves as we went through the meeting. And I said, you know, and then the first part of that was, own your, you know, own your stuff. Right. So there was. There were things that. That the one company was saying, you know, well, you know, we don't have this and this and this. And I, I ask, you know, the people in. In the other company, I said, so is that true? And they're. Yeah, I mean, this and that. And like, okay, well, let's start with that. You know, let's start with what can we give in this situation so that we are coming in with clean hands, you know, so that we're not. We're not trying to, you know, cram some agenda that we've got down these other people's throat. And by the way, would this. That was my second question. Would this ownership of these things and saying, yeah, we need to do that. Would that be good for this company that we own together? And the answer is absolutely yes. And like, okay, so maybe it wouldn't necessarily be the best thing in the world for this company because it means we've got to put some cash over here, but don't we owe the cash there. Yeah. Okay. Well, shouldn't we. Shouldn't we put it over there? You know? Yeah, well, they hadn't asked for it and blah, blah, blah. Who cares if they ask for it? You know, it either is supposed to be there or it isn't. So I think the first thing too is. Is let's say this is we. This is not any. There's no side to this. I hate that. You know, our side thinks. Never allow that language to enter the discussion. And then the second thing is, is how much of our own stuff can we own in our relationship? When I'm with my wife, I'm. I'm going to own my mistakes. Right. I'm not. It's. You've got to do that to come in with, like I said, clean hands is a legal term where if there's equity, which is kind of what's right and somebody is inequitable, they've done something that's wrong, they've kind of got dirt on their hands, you know, so you need to come in with clean hands. And I think that's a really great way to come into having any discussion because this is a meeting that was framed to me as, I don't know what's going to happen and this is
- [06:37]
B
going to be really hard.
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A
And, you know, I hope it doesn't blow up and stuff like that. And it's like, why would it blow up? If we, if we're all. If we can say that we're together and then we can say there's some things that aren't right, but we need to fix those and we're all willing to do that, then there's no reason to be concerned it's going to blow up because why would it. Right. And we left the meeting with great outcomes. Right. So I just thought it would be kind of interesting to talk about that in a. In across personal relationships within a company, cultural and communications, like interdepartmental, but intra company and then inter company and throw it out there and see what your thoughts were about it.
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B
Well, I mean, the first thing is that like you said that anytime you've got them us, what that tells me is that you don't have a shared goal or a shared mission
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A
either.
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B
There isn't a clear shared goal or mission between these teams. And you see this happen a lot within different teams and departments. So you see this a lot with sales and marketing. Happens all the time. And it's, you know, well, we generated the leads and it's like. And then sales like, oh, but we couldn't close those leads because the lead sucks. Or yeah, but, you know, and so, you know, so a tactical solution for that is we need to have some shared metrics and some shared goals. And you have similar things between very oftentimes like a product team and sales teams, you know, the services team, because sales might over promise and then products like, what are you doing? We can't deliver on that. Like, we don't even do that.
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A
That's not something we do. Why do you guys need to give us the stuff that we can sell?
- [08:20]
B
Exactly. It's like you need to sell the stuff we've already built. And so in all of these things, it's getting really, really clear on, do we have a shared goal that everybody has played a role in helping to set? And not necessarily everybody in the team, but at least all the functional leaders that if their team members start getting chippy, you know, and chirpy, they could be like, no, no, y', all, we got to do our part too. Which goes back to the clean hands. I think the shared goals is. Is a big part of it. And so usually when that happens in teams, there either wasn't a shared goal established ahead of time. There were siloed goals that were all established that people thought would essentially align, but it was never really made clear. Here's how these siloed goals, you know, all line up to the big goal. And it's not okay for one team to win and. But us to. To miss and to lose the goal like you think about a sports team. Okay, you won the MVP award and that's amazing. But we lost the championship. So you don't get to go over there and celebrate your MVP trophy while the rest of your team, you know, is licking their wounds because we lost the championship game. So. So, yep, we're going to have a bunch of different team goals. That's amazing. Keeps everybody on track. But we're all in pursuit of the broader goal that we all share. So either that broader goal wasn't established, it wasn't reinforced by leadership so that people were allowed to forget it, or nobody believes they're going to hit it. And that's what I see happen time and time again. Again, nobody thinks they're going to hit it for whatever reason. And it's when people know that the goal that everybody said and agreed to isn't going to be hit, that that's when the CYA cover your butt starts happening. And sometimes you gotta acknowledge that. Hey, everybody, let's go back to Our goal. Let's go back to the goals. So do you have shared goals? If you do, does everybody remember the shared goals? If they do, do they believe that they're achievable? Cause I find that finger pointing happens more often than not when people know that they're not gonna hit the goals. And now they're just, it shifts to self preservation. There's. They're, they're afraid. It's Lord of the Flies time.
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A
And, and I think also I love those. And, and I think in addition to that, what are the, what are the benefits to the shared goals? Like, what are the benefits to all of the stakeholders? Because you, it is fair to say that in a situation where you have a team or, or, or two different companies or two different humans, that the people that are involved have different desired outcomes or have different desired benefits that they will realize from the goal being achieved. And so I think that part of it too is understanding what those are and articulating them so that. Let's use sales and marketing as an example. Okay. What is our shared goal? Well, our shared goal is that we would like for the company to be profitable. Great. Okay. What is the goal that you have in this particular campaign? Where. And let's brainstorm this out. Where sales says, we would love to close more leads, but we need better leads to do that. And marketing is saying, we are giving you the best leads we know how to get. So, you know, you're, you're just going to have to figure out maybe a different way to sell them because you, you might be, you know, you might be off a little. Now we go into a meeting with these two divisions and marketing hopefully acknowledges you could always get better leads, we could always find better leads. That's something that we're constantly trying to do. Right now we think we're giving the best leads we can, but certainly we could look at our, you know, look at what you need and what you think might be different about them and try to find a more ideal lead. And sales could go in and say, we could always be better at selling. You know, it's always possible that there are emotional drivers that we're not identifying in the leads you've got. Maybe we could understand the dynamic of the leads that you're giving us better. And then what's the win for each of them? Because marketing might have a different compensation scheme, variable comp, you know, like thinking about what's, what's in it for marketing? Excuse me. Maybe they could get more budget to spend more if they could get higher conversions. And so that's a thing. Sales clearly has typically quotas that they have to meet for people to stay employed and so they could keep more salespeople employed. So then what is the. If, if we were able to improve our overall conversion rate, how do each of us benefit? How do each of us get the things that we want that are good for us? Now if we've owned that, we could be better and we've owned the mistakes that we are making currently, because we're always making mistakes. And we know that the big shared goal of having things convert better will ultimately help each of us realize our individual goals, which could be completely different. Then we're aligned. And I think it's, it's that process across the board where whoever you're talking to that, that, where can we find the alignment that we will, will come together that will also advance the individual goals that we have, because we are all going to have individual goals. Goals.
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B
So looking back on that situation that you described, can, can you think back on some things that maybe weren't done or that could have been done better to have prevented it from getting to that point?
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A
I think it's always communication, but it's communication that's dis agendized. It's, it's. You've got to like, if you can come at it thinking about what is the other person wants and how can, how can I help them get what they want? That's what I try to do is right. I don't think about, I know what I want, but I know that I probably have a better chance of getting what I want if I can help the other people get what they want. And so I think that a common mistake is that you forget that there's another person, another group of people, another set of wants. When you're looking at your situation and so you're only thinking you're caught. You know, you're myopic. You're only caught up in your one thing that you see that's wrong. You know, it's like they say they need more money and we don't want to give them more money because that's going to affect our profit. For example, let's say that that was, you know, a thing and the, and the other party is saying we need more money to make this worth doing and we're helping you out by doing the thing that you have us do. So you need to be able to free up more money for us. Okay? But they're not thinking about what is the other person what does the other party need? And I said, that's, that's probably most of every conflict that I find that I walk into to help resolve is a lot of it is just seeing what do the other people want? How can I identify that benefit and then say, how could it be? This is a great question and counterintuitive, I think. So if I'm over here, I would say, how could giving those people more money actually be good for us? It could never be good for us. Never. Well, I mean, if they could do this and that, you know. Okay, all right. So there are situations where the thing that you think is the worst thing in the world would actually be good for you. Well, I mean, I guess, you know, it's like that process of discovering that that is the case and it's the
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B
difference between being collaborative and combative. Right. And I think that's, that's the big piece is when you consider the other side, even if you don't have a solution, the fact that you're trying is the definition of collaborating. When you do not consider the other side at all, the only thing you have to do is to fight for your position.
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A
Yeah.
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B
That is competitive. And so the second that you adopt the frame of, okay, I'm going to, for the sake of argument, completely take on their position and not just take it on, but I'm going to argue their side for double what they're arguing for.
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A
Yeah.
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B
How would I convince me that that's, you know, that's a good idea? Just that mindset shift. And you're right. When people don't even know what the goal is, when they don't believe that the goal is achievable, they, they, they feel like their only option is to fight. We go into scarcity mindedness, we're not
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A
going to hit the goal.
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B
That means there's going to be less resources there, there's less pie to split up. Therefore, I need to get as much as I can because if I don't, I might start to death. Right. That is almost never the situation in business, in life today.
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A
True.
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B
Right. We are not on the Sahara desert. Like, this is not one of these things where if I don't, you know, eat or be eaten kind of, kind of thing. So the, it's always better just to, to say, like, okay, I'm getting a little emotional because I'm not happy because this thing isn't working out. So how can I adopt their, their frame and what does that mean for me?
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A
Exactly.
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B
But do you feel like from the get Go. The goal was clear and well established and it was a well aligned goal
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A
for those two teams prior to getting together. Yeah, no, definitely not.
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B
So that would have been a big thing of just here's the shared goal. Here's how this shared goal would trickle down into individualized goals, but here's how they reinforce one another. Because I know we've had situations using sales and marketing as example. This happened in a recent one of our companies. I heard about it from the, from the gm, but went in thinking like that it was going to be tough because it was a finger pointing. He said, she said, classic sales and marketing. You know, we're giving you all the leads. Yeah, but the leads suck kind of thing. But, but fortunately, and I'll give credit to the sales manager, the sales manager came in and said, look, we have scorecards. They said, look, marketing, your scorecards are all green. And I get it, that means you're doing your job. But we are having a really hard time closing some of these leads. They're just not closing at a high enough rate. And it's not that our salespeople aren't trying to do it. It's not that they're not following up. I really do think that we need to, to, to, to throttle, you know, a little bit, you know, get, get some higher quality, lower quantity. And I know that that means that the cost per lead is going to go up. How can you, what can we do? What can we do to, to, to increase the quality so we can have some better conversations. And it turned into a collaborative conversation where both won from it and it worked out well. But it could have very easily been a. Oh yeah, you're hitting your goals but you're doing it at our expenses.
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A
Right.
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B
That's a scarcity minded position. That's combative, not collaborative. And so to try to de. Emotionalize, I think is an important piece of that.
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A
It is. And it's all alignment because the goals, like you ask, was there a shared goal? Well, there wasn't because nobody had really taken the time to think about it. Right. They each had their own goals. How do I make this company profitable? And think about the company that we acquired part of. They're thinking both for themselves and for us. You know, how do we make this investment good for you guys? And how do we make our, you know, our decision to work with you make us feel that we made the right decision whereas the other company was thinking, well, we did this, excuse me, we did this to be able to serve our customers and make more Money. And if we give more money over there, then we will be making less money, even if our customers are served. I mean, they really had not taken the time to come together to think about what is the shared goal. And so I think it's a really good point and a really good place to start. So hopefully you guys find that helpful. I think that it happens a lot. And I will say just carry that over to your personal relationships with everybody that you've got. Figure out, like, if you can stay away from combat. I even say I don't like to negotiate, I like to collaborate. Right? If you can stay away from combat and go towards collaboration, if you can figure out what is the thing that you could help the other person do and that will actually benefit you as well, then you're really so far along the way to resolving any conflict. And even above that, you know, how do you, how do you de. Emotionalize, you know, the, the energy that you bring to the thing? If the energy is defensive, aggressive, it's not going to go as well as if it's, let me own all of the things that I'm doing wrong or might be perceived to be doing wrong. You know, we're, we're all basing everything in our lives on assumptions. And are the assumptions correct? Can we, you know, should we be changing any of this? That your example with marketing to me was really great because it's, look, all our things are green. And it's like, okay, we're assuming that that means that you're doing everything that sales needs, but it's possible that all your things are green, but the company has misaligned and misdefined what those green things should be. And that the truth is we need to go after a slightly different demographic or psychographic to get the ideal sales, you know, because some set of assumptions went in that to start. And the same thing, if you're, you know, having a fight with your, or a disagreement or a collaboration, negotiation, whatever, with your brother, your spouse, your sister, your significant other, you know, your best friend, what are the assumptions that you're bringing in that could potentially be inaccurate? To start with, how, how do you align on the goal and how do you own the fact even if you can't think of anything you're doing wrong? For me, I'll come in saying, look, I know that I've got some part in this, and so I don't know yet what it is, but I want you to know that the minute that we figure out what that is, I got no problem owning it. Or, okay, I know we're having this little bit of a disagreement right now. I've thought about it, and the truth is I've been a little stupid with respect to blank. You know, that, like, that ownership, to me, right off the bat is a give. And one of the first things that I'll try to do and in the negotiation that we had with. With that, you know, with that company, it was the same thing is like, what are the things that we could do that we could give? And right off the bat, it was like several hundred thousand dollars that. That they hadn't even asked for, that they should have asked for. And. And they were saying, you know, they haven't even asked for this. I'm like, well, then we should give it to them right off the bat before we do anything else, because it sets the tone as, oh, okay, this isn't a let's defend what we've got. This is a let's figure out what is best for everybody.
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B
Yeah. If your goal is to come away from that as a winner, then you've probably already lost. If this is a relationship that you intend to maintain after that interaction, you need to adopt the frame of everybody wins or everybody loses. And as long as that's your mindset going in and you adopt a collaborative position, then you're going to be far better off. But I do think that the best medicine is good prevention. Right. And so to start off by saying, hey, anytime you're coming together, where we can get misaligned is we're trying to do our own thing in our own ways towards a greater pursuit. Um, but sometimes those aren't always going to come together. So let's make sure we agree on what the shared goal, the shared mission is that we're going to look to accomplish. And, you know, if I'm green across the board, but you're not, then that means we're losing and we need to talk about it. Likewise, if you're green and, you know, we're not, then we need to talk about it because it's all about this one goal and getting agreement on that shared goal, shared mission. That is what brings teams and departments and companies strategic relationships together, as well as, you know, personal romantic relationships, so.
- [24:45]
A
Exactly. Well, thus we conclude the Matt got up at the beginning of the episode and made noise and walked out. And then Matt came back towards the end of the episode and made noise and came back with that. And we love Matt, guys, so that's. We wouldn't give any. If we give you a hard time. We like you.
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B
That's good. That's a sign.
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A
We love you.
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B
Love you, Matt.
- [25:06]
A
So that ends this episode. If you guys found it helpful, please share it with a friend. And thank you for listening. We'll see you next time.
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C
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