Micro Ownership: A New Way to Motivate Employees

Summary

Business Lunch Podcast Summary
Episode: Micro Ownership: A New Way to Motivate Employees
Release Date: March 12, 2025
Host: Roland Frasier
Guest: Ryan Dice

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Introduction and Topic Overview

In this episode of Business Lunch, host Roland Frasier engages in a dynamic conversation with Ryan Dice about a novel approach to employee motivation known as Micro Ownership. The discussion delves into how this strategy can empower employees by granting them ownership over specific business metrics, thereby fostering an entrepreneurial spirit within organizations.

The Concept of Micro Ownership

Ryan Dice introduces the foundational idea of Micro Ownership, emphasizing its potential to transform employee engagement and drive company profits.

"[...] the micro owner system gives employees direct ownership over specific business metrics, which is part of what they do."
— Ryan Dice [07:17]

He contrasts this with traditional methods like equity distribution and profit sharing, which he and Roland have previously critiqued for their inefficacy in certain business contexts.

"A lot of us do to try to get our people to act more like owners is we give them equity. [...] profit sharing as another way to try to make employees think a little bit more like owners."
— Ryan Dice [06:23]

The Bidding Mechanism: Advantages and Innovations

Ryan outlines the bidding component of Micro Ownership, highlighting its unique approach where teams compete to take ownership of key business metrics.

"Then you essentially let teams bid. [...] have them bid and say, you know, I believe that if we're given this metric that we can achieve this result."
— Ryan Dice [07:17]

Roland Frasier appreciates this innovative aspect, noting its similarity to an entrepreneurial auction where teams propose actionable strategies to improve designated metrics.

"When you kind of go into it a little deeper and talk about the bidding component, I like that a lot."
— Roland Frasier [10:16]

Potential Downsides and Challenges

Despite the enthusiasm, both hosts critically assess possible pitfalls of the Micro Ownership model:

1. Risk of Overbidding and Failure:
   Ryan raises concerns about the repercussions if a team fails to meet their targets after bidding.

   "There's got to be some type of downside risk or like everybody's just incentivized to bid the most."
   — Ryan Dice [11:49]

2. Attracting Risk-Friendly Individuals:
   Roland points out that the model might favor more risk-tolerant employees, potentially sidelining those who are risk-averse yet highly effective.

   "It's going to perhaps attract in the bidding process the more risk-friendly and disincentivize or not help recognize those who are motivated differently."
   — Roland Frasier [10:46]

3. Lack of Accountability:
   The absence of consequences for unmet targets could lead to disengagement or minimal effort.

   "In this case no downside either."
   — Ryan Dice [14:00]

Enhancing the Micro Ownership Model

To address these challenges, Ryan and Roland brainstorm enhancements to ensure the system remains fair and effective:

1. Structured Bidding with Hypotheses:
   Ryan suggests requiring teams to present a clear hypothesis with actionable steps when bidding.

   "Every bid should essentially be a hypothesis. [...] what are the actions that you're going to take, what is the improvement that you're going to make."
   — Ryan Dice [12:23]

2. Incorporating Consequences and Accountability:
   Roland proposes mechanisms to enforce accountability, such as company-wide consequences if targets aren't met, fostering collective responsibility.

   "You could create pretty significant peer pressure if there was a loss to everyone."
   — Roland Frasier [14:11]

   Additionally, humorous yet motivating consequences like dressing as bananas were discussed to add a light-hearted element to accountability.

   "Each member of the team would comprise the bunch and then they have to into a group hug of banana bunching for five minutes."
   — Roland Frasier [17:57]

Implementation Strategies

The hosts contemplate practical steps to integrate Micro Ownership into their organizational practices:

1. Pilot Testing:
   Ryan recommends initiating the model with a single, high-impact project to gauge its effectiveness before a full-scale rollout.

   "If I was going to roll this out, I would try to have one, like, big project that you really wanted to have fixed and say, hey, there's this one thing that I think is really, really important."
   — Ryan Dice [18:08]

2. Embedding Entrepreneurial Culture:
   The overarching goal is to rejuvenate entrepreneurial energy within scaling companies, addressing the loss of innovative drive that often accompanies growth.

   "I'm trying to think of ways that [...] to inject some entrepreneurial life into companies and also how do we identify those high agency folks."
   — Ryan Dice [19:31]

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, Roland Frasier and Ryan Dice express optimism about the potential of Micro Ownership to revitalize employee motivation and identify leadership talent within organizations. They invite listeners to share their feedback and plan to implement and revisit the concept in future discussions.

"Hopefully you guys found this helpful. If you did, please share it. If you got ideas on how to plus it, please let us know."
— Roland Frasier [21:07]

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Notable Quotes

• Ryan Dice [07:17]: "The micro owner system gives employees direct ownership over specific business metrics, which is part of what they do."
• Roland Frasier [10:16]: "When you kind of go into it a little deeper and talk about the bidding component, I like that a lot."
• Ryan Dice [12:23]: "Every bid should essentially be a hypothesis. [...] what are the actions that you're going to take, what is the improvement that you're going to make."
• Roland Frasier [14:11]: "You could create pretty significant peer pressure if there was a loss to everyone."
• Ryan Dice [19:31]: "I'm trying to think of ways that [...] to inject some entrepreneurial life into companies and also how do we identify those high agency folks."

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Key Takeaways

• Micro Ownership is a strategic approach that assigns specific business metrics to teams, promoting accountability and entrepreneurial behavior without diluting equity.
• The bidding mechanism allows teams to volunteer for metrics they believe they can improve, fostering a competitive yet collaborative environment.
• Potential challenges include the risk of overbidding, lack of accountability, and possible exclusion of risk-averse but valuable employees.
• Enhancements such as structured hypotheses for bids and company-wide consequences for unmet targets can mitigate these challenges.
• Pilot testing the model with a single project can help refine the approach before broader implementation.

This episode provides valuable insights for business leaders seeking innovative methods to motivate employees and enhance organizational performance through shared ownership and accountability.

Transcript

[Ryan Dice]

Yeah, but the technique, I think the playbook for it is a little bit. Is a little bit different. And the way that they do it is, I think, kind of cool. So step number one, you, as the, you know, as the founder, you see, identify three to five key metrics that directly impact profit. So what are the things that you're looking at and saying? These are some things, they directly impact profit. We know that if we improve these, we'll all just make more money. And they could be marketing related, sales related, they could be OPS related, efficiency, whatever. But come up with three to five. Then you essentially let teams bid. So, like have kind of. And you could do it based on department, or you could have people sort of group up in like a strike team type scenario and have them kind of bid and say, you know, I believe that if we're given this metric that we can achieve this result.

[Roland Frazier]

We were just talking about sayings like, it is what it is, it will be what it will be. They are who they are. And the good news is, folks, all of those sayings are absolutely true.

[Ryan Dice]

So profound.

[Roland Frazier]

You said you heard it first here on Business Lunch, which you are now welcome to. Welcome to Business Lunch with your host, Roland Frazier, that's me. And wonderful Ryan Dice. What I think. Should we just maybe start calling you Mr. Wonderful?

[Ryan Dice]

Yeah, let's get. Let's see if we can get some trademark infringements while we're at it. Sure, let's do it.

[Roland Frazier]

Wonderful. That's just too generic.

[Ryan Dice]

Fantastic.

[Roland Frazier]

By the way, you have to check out if you haven't Kevin O'Leary's musical career. It is we. If our producer is still on here. Ryan, if you're on here, can you pull up the amazing guitar Moog solo of the real Mr.

[Ryan Dice]

Wonderful?

[Roland Frazier]

I bet he's gone. Is he there? Are you there, Ann? It says he's here, but he's probably off having a coffee or something.

[Ryan Dice]

Describe it. Paint a picture in my mind. Oh, no, here we go.

[Roland Frazier]

Here it is. This is so wonderful. So wonderful to see.

[Ryan Dice]

Is it wonderful like with air quotes?

[Roland Frazier]

It is. It is special. It's very.

[Ryan Dice]

Is it wonderful like with a ph instead of an F?

[Roland Frazier]

Yes. Like a B, U, N, D, E.

[Ryan Dice]

R, P, H. This is exactly this right here. This is what the people come for.

[Roland Frazier]

This is what you.

[Ryan Dice]

This is. This is what gets us those like five and six star ratings.

[Roland Frazier]

This is what put us in the top 100 business podcast. I know a top 100 of all podcasts there for a moment. Right?

[Ryan Dice]

Clearly.

[Roland Frazier]

Clearly.

[Ryan Dice]

We said something that pissed Somebody off.

[Roland Frazier]

We should have done. We should have researched having this. So you can just interrupt us with that Ryan, when you find it and we'll play it. But. But what we're going to talk about today with. With Ryan, who may or may not become Mr. Wonderful. We're going to decide. You guys vote and let us know is something that you've been thinking about, an idea you've been bouncing around. You said you want to bounce off me, so what you got?

[Ryan Dice]

Yeah, yeah. So this, this idea came from one of our. One of our founders board members threw it out as a suggestion, an idea that they kind of had. And I was like, that sounds like an interesting idea.

[Unknown]

So I thought I would.

[Roland Frazier]

That founders board member is. If you are listening, remember, you can't protect as intellectual property ideas. Whoever takes the idea and makes something of it owns it all. So you get nothing.

[Ryan Dice]

Yeah, you get nothing.

[Roland Frazier]

Nothing.

[Ryan Dice]

Nothing. We pay you no royalties. Yeah, you. You drank the fizzy lifting drink.

[Roland Frazier]

I was gonna say it's as if you drank the fizzy lifting drink.

[Ryan Dice]

Yes.

[Roland Frazier]

Okay.

[Ryan Dice]

All right.

[Roland Frazier]

So they had an idea which we have stolen. I mean, which we have deployed.

[Ryan Dice]

Yeah, well, in fairness, we're. We're stealing it to give to everybody else. So this is a Robin Hood like, strategy.

[Roland Frazier]

Well, then it's okay.

[Ryan Dice]

It's not like we're charging for this, man.

[Roland Frazier]

It's like you.

[Ryan Dice]

We got. We have no financial incentive for this. It's like we don't need to take. Have advertising. All right, so here was the basic idea. So. Oh, did we find it? All right, here we go.

[Roland Frazier]

First, we got to love the house, the shirt, digging the outfit. That's all it. It doesn't get any better, guys.

[Ryan Dice]

So Roland, you're a synth guy. Is this pretty good On a scale of 1 to 10, is this like an 11?

[Roland Frazier]

I mean, the ability to create a cat meowing and dying on a synthesizer is pretty talented. It really, really is.

[Ryan Dice]

It's like playing chopsticks on the piano, playing the jaw, the jaws.

[Roland Frazier]

You don't even need to make chords, just sounds.

[Ryan Dice]

Oh, that was fine. I mean, it seems like he can at least play a guitar. Like, I couldn't do that.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah, he's got a little bit of a run there. But the one that. The guitar one that I saw was just basically back and forth on one string too.

[Ryan Dice]

That is how Calendar works.

[Roland Frazier]

He's learning some chords, so he's getting better. But anyway, the synthesizer was my favorite because it was just like, what the.

[Ryan Dice]

Yeah. So all of that, to me Sounded great. As somebody with no musical ability whatsoever, I need you to know I truly am in awe.

[Roland Frazier]

Okay. All right.

[Ryan Dice]

It seemed astounding. It's like I have no artistic ability. Somebody draws a perfect circle. Jaw dropped.

[Roland Frazier]

That is. That is impressive. Okay.

[Ryan Dice]

Yeah.

[Roland Frazier]

Anyway. Okay, let's go back to. To our stolen idea.

[Ryan Dice]

I see. What I thought this was is we were transitioning this show into your new. Into your new YouTube scent show, but I guess not.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah.

[Ryan Dice]

You want to keep this business related just for today?

[Roland Frazier]

We're gonna get there.

[Ryan Dice]

Okay.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah.

[Ryan Dice]

All right, so here's the idea. So all of us, I think as business owners, we wish that our employees acted more like owners. Right? That's. That's kind of the general initial thought. And so what a lot of us do to try to get our people to act more like owners is we give them equity. And you and I have talked on, like, a hundred different shows about how that typically is a bad idea. You don't necessarily need to give equity. You shouldn't give equity. Are there times when it makes sense? Yes, but those times are few and far between, especially for closely held bootstrap businesses. Other companies will do profit sharing as another way to try to make employees think a little bit more like owners. Well, what this person's idea was, and again, I thought it was cool. Want to run it by you. He calls it the micro ownership. Right. And so the micro owner system, because it gives employees direct ownership over specific business metrics, which is part of what they do.

[Roland Frazier]

I mean, we have that. We call them stakeholders in jobs anyway, right? It's like, you're going to own these metrics during this quarter, you're going to own this campaign, etc. Okay.

[Ryan Dice]

Yeah. But the technique, I think the playbook for it is a little bit. Is a little bit different. And the way that they do it is, I think, kind of cool. So step number one, you, as the, you know, as the founder, you see, identify three to five key metrics that directly impact profit. So what are the things that you're looking at and saying, these are some things. They directly impact profit. We know that if we improve these, we'll all just make more money. And they could be marketing related, sales related, they could be ops related, efficiency, we, whatever. But come up with three to five. Then you essentially let teams bid. So, like, have kind of. And you could do it based on department, or you could have people sort of group up in like a strike team type scenario and have them kind of bid and say, you know, I believe that if we're given this metric that we can achieve this result. And so in an almost like auction, silent auction, like setting, people, people will say I want this metric and this is what I believe that we can do to improve it. Based on that improvement. Targets get set and then teams get full authority to improve the metrics. And then what you do is you don't just do broad across the board profit sharing, but you share a far more significant percentage of the financial impact of that owning team for like a period of time. So you might give them like 25% for like for the next 90 days, whatever the impact is, you get 25% of this and then after that it's just goes in whatever. So it's really project based, very tight. It's designed to create this result and they're going to, as long as there's an improvement, they're going to, they're going to earn. But they really only earn to the degree that there was an improvement. And you only pay them on the over, but you give them like a lot. And he was like, I'd give him 25% or maybe 50%, like, what do you care? It's on the improvement. Obviously you gotta factor in margin, gross margin, depending on where it is and things like that. But he's like, be really, really generous because if you're only doing it for, you know, 30, 60, 90 days, even if you go backwards a little bit, you now have this improvement for the rest of the time. So that's kind of the basic idea. I liked it. I like the micro owner aspect. I like teams kind of coming and bidding on it as opposed to assigning it to them because it is more entrepreneurial. It's them basically saying, yeah, we're going to take this on, we're going to tackle this. It kind of reminds me of the episode that we did a couple weeks back where we talked about agency and wanting to find some high. This seems like a good way to identify high agency people. People who are willing to say I'm in would likely be a way to identify high agency people. So that's the idea. I just want to see poke holes in it. Plus it say it's stupid. What are your thoughts?

[Roland Frazier]

I like my initial thought is it doesn't sound that different from anything that I've seen before or that we've used in terms of a significant incentive for achieving a certain result. Then when you kind of go into it a little deeper and talk about the bidding component, I like that a, a lot. The, you know, recovering, not so fully recovered attorney in me says, I don't really like calling it ownership, you know, of any type.

[Ryan Dice]

Well, it's micro ownership in air quotes. It's in quotes. Roland.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah, I still, still get a little nervous. You know, I was promised ownership. Oh, wait, but for 90 days. Oh, you know, but yeah, owning the responsibility. I think it's cool. I think. No, I get it. I think it is a, I think it is a, a good novel approach. I like the bidding and I like the, the creativity in the name. I think, I think that's cool downside. I mean, the only thing I could think of is that it's going to perhaps attract in the bidding process the more risk friendly and disincentivize or not help recognize those who are motivated differently. But you know, that that might be okay. Like, like there's, I think that there will be people who will be like, what's the consequence if you bid and you're wrong.

[Ryan Dice]

Yeah, that was my question. I said the same because I'm thinking like, how does this break? Is always the question I ask. And it seems to me like it breaks because my favorite thing about it is also my least favorite thing. And that's the bidding mechanism, right? So the idea of somebody coming in there and saying, oh, I believe I can achieve this result. Right? And so essentially the, the prize goes to the highest bidder. Well, there's got to be some type of downside risk or like everybody's just incentivized to bid the most. And like, if I don't make it, then like, well, gosh darn it, I tried my best.

[Roland Frazier]

What is, what does this person use?

[Ryan Dice]

So he was saying, like he didn't have an answer for it. So what I was thinking was the bid should be, I believe I can achieve this result through the following actions. So every bid should essentially be a hypothesis. So it's not merely a bid, but it's an actual hypothesis. You know, I believe that by doing X, Y and Z or just X, if it's one big thing, we can move this metric from here to here by this date. And so if you create a template around what a bid is and in that template includes what are the actions that you're going to take, what is the improvement that you're going to make, and what is the date that you're going to achieve that improvement by then at least you can look at it and say, okay, do I believe that they have the ability to pull that off? Can we give them the resources to do that? Because that'd be the other thing. Somebody's like, well yeah, I mean to do this I'm going to need $10 million.

[Roland Frazier]

I just need money, people and capital equipment. If I can do it, I'm going.

[Ryan Dice]

To need to go hire an entire team. Yeah, I need, I need to go, I need to go hire the Rock as a spokesperson.

[Roland Frazier]

Right.

[Ryan Dice]

To really pull. That was what I was planning. That was, that was my whole big thing is so Super Bowl.

[Roland Frazier]

So do you have you've thought about this a little bit. Did you come up with anything on the downside if, if they don't hit it?

[Ryan Dice]

I don't. So no. As opposed. Because I thought about that. I think having something punitive for employees because it's like to your point, it's not actual ownership. And I do believe that ownership should be a function of risk.

[Roland Frazier]

And in this case no downside either.

[Ryan Dice]

Right. I believe the downside in this case is all of this that they're doing is in addition to the work that they have. Like so you don't get to who gets the up.

[Roland Frazier]

Let's say that it's 25% and it adds, you know, $100,000 and now we got a $25,000 bonus that's going out. Who gets that?

[Ryan Dice]

That would be, that would go to the person or people who were involved in, in making that happen.

[Roland Frazier]

I wonder if it would be enough if, if it was basically because for that period of time, I mean you might invest, you might be willing to invest more. And if you were. What I was thinking is like you could create pretty significant peer pressure if there was a loss to everyone. So it's like basically we've allocated 25% of the profit here, plus we're going to have another 20% that is a company wide bonus. If this is achieved to encourage everybody to contribute to help these people. And then if they don't hit it, then nobody gets the bonus. So then there's big pressure not to overbid because. And it's self correcting in the politics of the company. Something like that could be interesting. And then also it rewards everybody and it doesn't, it doesn't, you know, the Mac team, the company like it did with just Jobs when he was like I love these people and I hate everybody else.

[Ryan Dice]

Yeah. They would essentially like need to tip out. Like how waiters need to tip out to like the bartender into the.

[Roland Frazier]

So that you are literally going to miss out on your bonus if these people overbid and don't perform. Now that couldn't, that could encourage People to, you know, to sandbag too. But, you know, there's no. Not going to be any perfect answer. But I do think there has to be a negative consequence that isn't eating at somebody's pay, but that's taking away some potential perk that they get when the thing is hit.

[Ryan Dice]

Yeah. What you could have there as a downside, and I think this is nearly identical to what you said with maybe just a slight tweak, is whatever their possible, like whatever they would receive, some percentage of it, maybe it's 20% of what they would get, would essentially go into a pool for the entire company so that everybody knows, like, hey, you're all incentivized to help these people. They're the primary. But if they ask for some help, you should help them.

[Roland Frazier]

Yes.

[Ryan Dice]

Yeah. And so. And here's what they're going for. They've said that they're going to achieve this result. So here's how much is on the line for them, and here's how much is on the line for all of you. So you should definitely help them so that if they don't make it now, I think the downside is, number one, the shame of like, well, we missed. And number two, you've got a whole lot of people in the company who are like, well, God dang it, I helped you out for nothing. So I think the risk of the downside, risk of extra work with no upside. I like that because that is entrepreneurial. Right. That is inherently an entrepreneurial activity. I'm going to do this thing and there's no guarantee that it's going to work out, but if it does, it's going to be big. Also, the need to go and sell others on helping you with this is. Is, I think, another piece that's important that I like about this. But the key is everybody else has to still. The company still has to hit its goals or nothing gets paid. I think that's critical. So as a company, we can't completely miss our targets. We can't lose money, we can't go backwards or nobody gets paid anything, including this. So everybody still has to take care of business.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah. And then some sort of humiliation for the people that failed. I think, like, you know, you have to come dressed as bananas or, you know, something like that would be a.

[Ryan Dice]

Dress as a lot of bananas or a singular banana, because it's a very different.

[Roland Frazier]

Each member of the team would comprise the bunch and then they have to into a group hug of banana bunching for five minutes, I think.

[Ryan Dice]

Yeah. And when they walk through, people are like doing the bells and saying, shame, shame, shame.

[Roland Frazier]

Yes, exactly. Now you.

[Ryan Dice]

I like this.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah, yeah. So something between that and shaving their.

[Ryan Dice]

Head, you know, it obviously isn't perfect. I think it would be fun. The way that I would do it first before I made a big production out of it, is if I was going to roll this out, I would try to have one, like, big project that you really wanted to have fixed and say, hey, there's this one thing that I think is really, really important. We don't have, you know, the full capacity to greenlight it. But if. If one or more of you are willing to take this on, in addition to the work that you're already doing, we were going to hire an outside consultant or an outside team to help us with it. We figured, why not? Why not go with the people that we have? And if all of you were like, no, I don't have time, that's cool. No harm, no foul. But if somebody wants to take it, here's what we were prepared to pay an outside person. And so you can take it. You can earn this. Here's what we would need. And that's the way that I would beta this, because then if it works, you could say, hey, we did this one time. Now we're going to make it a regular thing where we come up with these ideas and you could bid on it. I think it would be better if there was a. You do it once and you get a win and there's a story around it and a narrative around it is kind of how I would look to roll that out.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. Sorry, go ahead.

[Ryan Dice]

I'm just always trying to think of ways that, you know, one of the things that frustrated me so much coming out of COVID is it seemed like in the earliest days of the business, we had a lot of entrepreneurial people. And then as the different companies scaled, you get people here who are less and less entrepreneurial. Right. And that is the nature of business. Right. You're going to hire people who you. You said this before. They're incentivized by different things.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah.

[Ryan Dice]

Which is fine.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah, right.

[Ryan Dice]

It's fine. But it got to the point where it felt like there were nobody, There was nobody left who was entrepreneurial. Because when you have employee minded people who are hiring other employee minded people and you sort of lose that entrepreneurial energy and that entrepreneurial vibe, it just feels like companies start to die a little bit again. I just go back to the episode that we did on the, the high agency people. So I'm trying to think of like, how do we inject some entrepreneurial life into, into companies and also how do we identify those high agency folks that we might be able to tap for leadership positions moving forward. This seemed like a good way to get them to, to rise to the top.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah, I, I like it. I think it's cool. What are we going to do it with? What, what's, what do you think as far as trying it?

[Ryan Dice]

That's exactly what I was going to ask you. And so since I came up with the idea, you, you get to come up with the, with the, the thing.

[Roland Frazier]

Okay, all right, all right. I'm on it. I'm gonna do it.

[Ryan Dice]

You see what I did there?

[Roland Frazier]

I see, I see. Awesome.

[Ryan Dice]

I came up with the idea for dinner. You have to pick the restaurant. That's what my wife does to me.

[Roland Frazier]

That's, that's only fair. Well, hopefully you guys found this helpful. If you did, please share it. If you got ideas on how to plus it, please let us know. And we would, you know, we'd love to hear. And then we will figure out how we're going to give this a try and we will try it and report back to you probably in about six months because it's about a three month cycle to go through it. So that'll be kind of fun. I like it. Awesome. Anything else before we leave? The wonderful folks today, Leave us a.

[Ryan Dice]

Really nice review and give us a five star rating.

[Roland Frazier]

But share, we like it if you share even more than that. Those reviews are.

[Ryan Dice]

Yeah, tell your friends.

[Roland Frazier]

We're kind of. Just tell your friends, get them on, get them to listen and we'll see you next time. Thanks, guys.

[Unknown]

Hey, Roland Frazier here.

[Ryan Dice]

If you're looking for a way to.

[Unknown]

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