Business Lunch Podcast Summary

Episode Title: Navigating Business Transitions: From Epic to Scalable
Host: Roland Frasier (A)
Co-host: Ryan Deiss (B)
Date: November 18, 2025

Overview

This episode dives deep into major business transitions, focusing on the sunsetting of the Epic Network brand and its absorption into The Scalable Company. Roland Frasier and Ryan Deiss candidly discuss why shifts like these happen, what it means for entrepreneurs to pivot or "retire" from successful ventures, and their learnings about running educational businesses in a rapidly evolving market. The tone is honest, reflective, and often philosophical—full of firsthand lessons and practical takeaways for any entrepreneur faced with the challenge of change.

Key Discussion Points & Segments

1. Announcing the End of Epic Network (00:26 – 04:00)

• Roland and Ryan reveal Epic Network—originally launched during the pandemic as "Ethical Profits in Crisis"—will be shut down as a standalone brand and rolled into The Scalable Company.
• Roland’s Perspective: Epic was "a wonderful adventure," but had become more of an organizational business (courses, coaches, employees) than he enjoyed.
• Quote:

  "My happy joy and genius spot is helping make things happen and add value in a Hit and run kind of style, not like I'm in a meeting kind of style." — Roland [02:19]

2. Why Make the Change? (04:00 – 07:53)

• The pandemic crisis context faded, making Epic less relevant.
• Strategic overlap: Epic's training better serves Scalable's existing clients.
• Ryan’s Insight:

  "We had business owners over here who wanted to learn about the stuff, but really that was now in a different brand over here and not through, you know, any really good, solid strategic reason that we had devised." [04:28]

3. Accidental Entrepreneurship & Letting a Business Grow Beyond You (07:53 – 13:00)

• Many entrepreneurs stumble into businesses that morph beyond their intentions.
• It's okay to step back or change direction—even if the business is successful.
• Roland on Agency:

  "The business is there to serve you...If you're not happy and it's not serving you, then...you shouldn't be doing it." [07:57]

4. Guilt, Permission & Knowing When to Exit (13:00 – 17:03)

• Entrepreneurs may feel guilt or an obligation to continue, even at their own unhappiness.
• The importance of planning what you’re exiting TO, not just from—a house-selling analogy.
• Ryan:

  "Anytime you're exiting something, you have to be clear on what you're exiting to...If you don't know where you're moving next, you're homeless." [12:11]

5. Folding, Selling, and Valuing Transitions (14:32 – 17:03)

• Epic was "acquired" by Scalable, but could have easily been sold outright.
• Even successful businesses can and sometimes should be left behind if they no longer serve the founder's happiness.
• Roland:

  "Even if it was profitable and you were just going to walk away, I would walk away before I would be unhappy, you know." [15:08]

6. The Opportunity Cost of Staying (17:03 – 19:56)

• Reducing business scope also reduces revenue, but opens up immense personal and creative bandwidth.
• Don’t wait until you hate your company—exit or change while there’s still value.
• Ryan:

  "Make the decision sooner. Rather than later, that you want to make a change while there's still lots of value there." [19:45]

7. The Future of Courses & Education Businesses (21:05 – 29:40)

• Courses are not “dead,” but severely commoditized—by the oversupply from the pandemic, low-quality products, and the rise of on-demand information via YouTube, books, and especially AI.
• Roland’s Epiphany:

  "The value of courses is being commoditized more and more and more by that. And so...you've got to have something different." [22:41]

• High-ticket course buyers are mainly DIY people—not the ideal audience for building larger-scale partnerships or deal flow.

8. Lessons Learned: When Your Customers Aren’t the Partners You Want (25:25 – 33:10)

• Original hope: teach acquisition, and naturally, some students would bring deals. In reality, course buyers want to do it themselves.
• Key Quote:

  "If you're selling a solution to people who want a job done...you're probably going to be more likely to get those people wanting to hire you...But if you're the solution provider of the thing selling to DIYers, then you shouldn't really be surprised when they DIY." — Roland [25:59]

9. What Would You Do Differently? (33:10 – 35:28)

• Roland wouldn’t change his 2020 decision but would have made the pivot sooner—advising others to recognize earlier when a business is no longer aligned with their goals.

10. Navigating Guilt About Impacting Others (35:28 – 39:40)

• Hardest part of change is fear of negatively impacting employees, clients, or partners—but letting people linger in a business you no longer believe in is worse.
• Ryan:

  "Usually we know what we should do. It’s just that we know people are going to be impacted negatively by it. And so I'm actually trying just to come up with a way, like, is there something else I haven't thought of?" [37:41]

11. The Key Question to Ask When Facing a Transition (39:40 – 43:08)

• “What would need to be true for this to be awesome?”—Apply the five “what would have to be trues” to dig deep on business direction and feasibility.
• Roland:

  "If you can't change the universe and gravity and things like that, then...do something different." [41:54]

12. Roland’s Next Chapter (43:08 – 45:42)

• Not retiring—doubling down on creative projects: content, books (business fables and nonfiction), and more direct business deals.
• Will be more visible and productive, just in new ways.

13. Final Words to the Epic Community (45:42 – 51:10)

• Gratitude for action-takers; encouragement for learners to stop consuming and start doing:

  "You've learned enough. So go and make this happen. Go do deals. That, to me, is the big message I would like to leave." — Roland [46:24]

• Even “doing a crappy deal” to start is valuable—don’t overthink into inaction.

14. What’s Next for Listeners? Where to Find Roland (52:28 – End)

• Roland will continue teaching for free via social channels and YouTube.
• Scalable clients will get more value as Epic’s resources are folded in.
• The business "isn't over—it's just changing." [54:20]
• Ryan’s take:

  "If you're somewhere where you don't want to be, move. Be proactive about doing it. But be clear if you’re going to exit something, what you’re exiting to." [54:31]

Notable Quotes

• Roland Frasier:

  • "The business is there to serve you...If you're not happy and it's not serving you, then...you shouldn't be doing it." [07:57]
  • "I think if you want to evolve as a person, you just can't be afraid of change and you can't be afraid of initiating change..." [09:55]
  • "Even if it was profitable and you were just going to walk away, I would walk away before I would be unhappy." [15:08]

• Ryan Deiss:

  • "Anytime you're exiting something, you have to be clear on what you're exiting to...If you don't know where you're moving next, you're homeless." [12:11]
  • "Make the decision sooner. Rather than later, that you want to make a change while there's still lots of value there." [19:45]
  • "If you're somewhere where you don't want to be, move. Be proactive about doing it." [54:31]

Timeline & Timestamps of Important Segments

• 00:26 – 04:00: Epic Network’s shutdown explained
• 04:00 – 07:53: Why Epic was merged into Scalable
• 07:53 – 13:00: Accidental business growth and permission to change course
• 13:00 – 17:03: Guilt, permission, and knowing when to exit a company
• 21:05 – 29:40: The commoditization of courses; future of educational businesses
• 39:40 – 43:08: The pivotal “what would have to be true for this to be awesome?” question
• 43:08 – 45:42: What’s next for Roland
• 45:42 – 51:10: Messages to the Epic community and action encouragement
• 52:28 – End: Where to find Roland and what’s next for Scalable clients

Conclusion

This episode is essential listening for any entrepreneur wrestling with guilt, burnout, or direction in their business. Roland and Ryan demystify the process of transitioning—even from successful ventures—and provide actionable frameworks (like the "what would have to be true?" question) to help founders make their next right move. The blend of philosophical reflection and strategic insight makes this a must-listen (or read) for those seeking real, lived entrepreneurial wisdom.

Connect with Roland Frasier

• YouTube, LinkedIn, Instagram, X (Twitter), TikTok: New content weekly
• For deals/partnerships and extended learning, transition to The Scalable Company community

If you’re at a crossroads in your business, this episode gives you permission—and a roadmap—to rethink, pivot, or move forward in a way that actually serves you.