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- [00:00]
Roland Frazier
I mean, a lot of deals are getting done, I think. I don't know how much uncertainty is there. I think it's just been like, if you look at all the money that Berkshire is sitting on, I think they just can't find a place to spend it. Like they could buy Goldman Sachs. But I also think that there's a lot of confidence that the markets are going to go down. And, and if I look around the, you know, all the people that I feel like we know in multiple industries, that that uncertainty is scaring the actual business owners. And so I think that there are people waiting for opportunities, but there's still a lot of M and A activity going on. Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Business Lunch with your hosts, myself, Roland Frazier, and the inimitable Ryan Dice. Ryan, how are you doing today?
- [00:58]
Ryan Dice
Well, I'm certainly not being imitated, if that's what you're suggesting.
- [01:01]
Roland Frazier
You know what? I've seen so many people trying to imitate you, but they haven't done it effectively. There's so many Ryan Dices. You have tried to sell me bitcoin more times than I can count on Instagram.
- [01:12]
Ryan Dice
That is my absolute favorite. That's when you know you've made it. You know you've made it when, when your profile gets knocked off on social media so that bitcoin scammers can try to sell all your friends and family. You know, I guess fake bitcoin hack type stuff. It's the best. It's the best. It's my favorite.
- [01:29]
Roland Frazier
It's the best.
- [01:31]
Ryan Dice
Hey, so you're about to come down to Austin. I'm really excited about this. I feel like you haven't been down to my neck of the woods in a really long time.
- [01:38]
Roland Frazier
I haven't. I think it's been November of last year was the last time I was down there, so I'm looking forward to that. And then we're going to trek it over to Country Music Central in Nashville, Tennessee and do our founders board eventually. So that should be fun, too.
- [01:52]
Ryan Dice
It's going to be great. I'm excited you're. Because you're going down. It's like a private equity conference thing.
- [01:57]
Roland Frazier
Yeah, it's a. It's capital markets. JP Morgan's got this capital markets event in Austin for a day, so I'm going to come in, see you and Richard for dinner, go to the next, go to that the next day, and then I don't know if we're. Are we getting together on the night, that night, or are you, you Spending time with your family or something stupid like that. Can you hear me?
- [02:19]
Ryan Dice
Yeah, I'm doing whatever my wife tells, tells me I can do and will do. But definitely, definitely doing some planning on Friday and things like that. But I'm excited to hear what comes out of that and what the shape is of sort of the private equity world. It seems like money has been locked for a while, but everybody wants to spend. But right now it seems like there's more uncertainty than ever. So I'm going to be really curious to see what comes out of that.
- [02:45]
Roland Frazier
I mean, a lot of deals are getting done, I think, I don't know how much uncertainty is there. I think it's just been like if you look at all the money that Berkshire is sitting on, I think they just can't find a place to spend it. Like they could buy Goldman Sachs. But I also think that, that, that there's a lot of confidence that the markets are going to go down. And, and if I look around the, you know, all the people that I feel like we know in multiple industries that that uncertainty is scaring the actual business owners. And so I think that there are people waiting for opportunities. But there's still a lot of M and A activity going on. I mean there's a lot of deals are being done. So it'll be, it'll be interesting to see. I'm looking forward to it. It'll be, it'll be cool to get other experts insights.
- [03:37]
Ryan Dice
Yeah. When you come back, we'll have to do, do an episode with your updates on, on that. Let everybody know kind of what you learned. Yeah. So what I wanted to chat with you about today, I read this article in Fast Company of all things. I don't remember the last time I read a Fast Company article and I don't remember where it came across my path. But it's the, what caught my eye was the headline. It says how stability is becoming the new luxury.
- [04:01]
Roland Frazier
Okay.
- [04:02]
Ryan Dice
And it caught my eye because the basic premise is that essentially after decades and decades and decades of rapid technological change and disruption, there was this new study that digitas did. And what they're finding is that consumers are now saying that they actually prefer stability and routine over innovation. And apparently they've been doing the study for a long time. And this is the first time that really a significant majority have said, holy crap, just give us more like stability. In fact, 83% expressed a preference for stability. And I thought that was interesting because they're expressing a preference for stability while at the same time we're seeing interest in AI surge. So there's a bit of a contradiction, there's a bit of a paradox. But I don't know about you. I know I'm kind of feeling it. I'm feeling an overwhelm of just all the new stuff. If you've ever been out in the ocean and it's like you're just getting hammered by wave after wave after wave and you just can't seem to come up for air, I feel like as soon as we learn about one thing, there's another thing that we need to learn. And this is nothing new. It just seems like the pace is incredible. And I'm just seeing. It's almost like a lot of consumers and a lot of people are just sort of tapping out. And I've been feeling it, I've been hearing it from some of our clients. And so to see this kind of reflected in an actual study I thought was interesting. So I just want to just, I guess first kind of get your take on that. Like, are you feeling this too? Are you seeing this?
- [05:38]
Roland Frazier
I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk about a couple of things and then I'll tell you. I am surprised that it's a change that 83%, I think you said want stability because in my experience most people do not like change. Most people want the comfort of stability, but the truth is that it is never there. It's. It's illusory if you think it's there. So. So I think that's kind of funny that, that, that like that's a change. It seems to me like at least in my experience, most people want to be that like the least change that they have, the happier they are.
- [06:22]
Ryan Dice
Unless they're apparently not from their product, not from the products and services. So in their, in their day to day life. Yeah. But they're saying specifically as it relates to the companies, brands. Right. What do we love in our brands? In the past it was, we love brands that are always changing and always innovating. Now they're citing a preference for brands that are more stable and more predictable and more routine. Right. People, you know, talking about people having a preference for analog board games and stuff like that. So.
- [06:52]
Roland Frazier
Yeah, yeah. Which will put those brands out of business if they, if they follow that tact. But yeah, I want to get into.
- [06:57]
Ryan Dice
Some of the implications of this as well because I do think that there are some things that we can take from this. But, but yeah, just in general, but going back to it like. So keep, keep going with your, with Your. With your thoughts on that?
- [07:06]
Roland Frazier
Yeah, so. So that's the first thing. And then the second thing is, is that it ain't ever going to happen. And, and I think that people maybe forget when, gosh, was it almost at least like 15 to 17 years ago when Facebook was really kind of coming out with Instagram and DAP and all of the. So, you know, YouTube, all the social media channels are rel. Were relatively young back in the early aughts, right. And they were changing all the time and you were like, you know, I don't need another person. I don't need an. Why do I have to be on Instagram and Snap and LinkedIn and Twitter and you know, 17 other, you know, musically, which was, I think TikTok before it was Tik Tok. Like, why do I have to be on all those places in all these different formats? I can't do it. I'm going crazy. I want the stability of one. Right? I think people were. Were saying that then too. So I, I don't think that I. I think that what we're experiencing is everyone is participating in the live development and evolution of AI through the major competitors. And I find it confusing and I'm relatively up on it because, you know, every day it, I laugh at the YouTube channel headlines. It's every day it's like insane changes. It's like, okay, I mean, they're not anymore, right? They're, you know, it's like, come on, it's the same, it's the same headline that you've used a thousand times, but it's, hey, Google released, you know, Gemini 2.5 flash. But, you know, but Grok did this update and Mid Journey's now got this. And this is a new API from OpenAI that is confusing and they kind of all do the same thing, but different ones are a little bit better at the other. And if you lean into any one of them and don't look at the others, you might very well get left behind. And that's terrifying to people. But at the same time, if you did just lean into one and get really good at that, you'd be just fine. So I think that it's probably this panic that everybody's seeing from the AI platforms to not get left behind and to be the leader because they're fighting for that right now. It's still open for anybody. And if any of them stops innovating and stops catching the attention of the people and gets left behind by the others, they're going to maybe fall out like I doubt we will have all of the ones that we have right now, even though there's only really four or five that, you know, command attention. And then there's who's the, you know, who's the upstart going to be? Who's the meerkat that that's then going to be bought by the, you know, existing one, or who's the Snapchat that's going to come out with stories that the Facebook is going to just flat out clone and, you know, and take with, you know, with, with and even call it the same thing. That's all happening real time. And I think that people trying to get not left behind by this giant innovation that's, I think probably as big as the Internet was, as big as computers was, is very unnerving. And so that's what all that's coming from. You know, I, I'm not, I'm not feeling overwhelmed by it because I just want to basically, like, I subscribe to maybe 100 newsletters that are AI related and things like that, and I don't read most of them unless, unless something has caught my eye or I'll let two or three weeks go by before I'll go back and spend two or three hours catching up on them, because chances are I would have spent time learning something that's completely inapplicable now. And that's the thing is, I think that you probably don't want, you certainly don't need to be on the cutting edge of all of these things. You can be back a month and kind of see what's, you know, what's happening and what's not happening. And I think you can see when there's like a major thing that happens that's. I don't know if you think about.
- [11:17]
Ryan Dice
What you just said. You said, I subscribe to 100ish newsletters just on AI.
- [11:24]
Roland Frazier
Yep.
- [11:26]
Ryan Dice
That's nuts.
- [11:27]
Roland Frazier
It is, right?
- [11:28]
Ryan Dice
Like you, I mean, you threw that out there. Like, that's just kind of nothing. But I do think that that is, you know, that kind of speaks to the fact that, yeah, this crap is pretty freaking overwhelming. And so if you who. It's our jobs to be on the leading edge of this stuff. We need to learn it, we need to understand it for our own businesses, but also so we can explain it to our clients. So we're incentivized to do this. It's one of those things where, like, people are always amazed and impressed when these actors are in such great shape. It's like it's their freaking job. Like, their job is to go exercise during the day and, like, read lines that people wrote for them. Like, don't be that impressed. Anyway, it's our job to, like, do this stuff, to learn, and yet we're a little bit. A lot. Bit overwhelmed. You can imagine how the business owners would be. And then now let it trickle down to the consumers. Let it trickle down to my redneck friends who are just trying to figure out what the heck's going on there. And I think you can see how a lot of people are just crying out for, holy crap, can this stuff just slow down a little bit and just give me a little peace of mind.
- [12:26]
Roland Frazier
Right?
- [12:27]
Ryan Dice
So if that's where it is, justly or unjustly, what opportunity do you think that creates for marketers, for business owners? Because I do think that this is. I do think that a shift has taken place. I do think that people were lining up for the iPhone that had all the newest, coolest innovations. And we wanted to watch and to figure out, like, ooh, look at all the new tricks and features. And we wanted that we chased the brands that were always doing the new. And so if we're all exhausted and I don't believe this is anti tech, by the way, I think that's important. I don't think it's anti tech. I just think it's kind of a little bit anti. Overwhelm.
- [13:08]
Roland Frazier
Yeah.
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Ryan Dice
So if that's where it is, what's the zagging to everybody else's zig, do you think?
- [13:15]
Roland Frazier
That's a really good question. The challenge is my. Is my questioning the. Was it gravitas. The. The digitas. The digitas study. I'd like to know more about that to. To feel like I could believe it, because I know I can give a study and get any result. You know, that's the benefit of being a recovering attorney. The. I mean, I guess it's like just generally for people and for. As a product person, it's like, okay, well, I, I understand that at some point we saw research that said that when you. If you touted AI as being in your product, you got lower responses. So we stopped touting AI and just called it software. And so I think that you. You do want to be aware of the sentiment of the market. And I guess that I would lean into my core features and. And I would enhance them and improve them and that that would be okay, but positioned as convenience enhancers, or maybe not announcing it as brand new, but just stressing this is how easy this is. To use. So like if I had an iPhone, and let's say that I had something like Apple Intelligence that was going to make the phone better, which doesn't exist if I did. Yes, Apple, I was talking to you. Let's say that, that I've got that. But what it does is it lets me now finally be able to find the emails that I'm looking for on my phone that Apple's terrible mail search feature never would allow me to do. I probably would just say, here's the things that you can do with your iPhone 17, find emails in, you know, in two seconds. You know that like I wouldn't talk about it necessarily as a change. I would stress the benefit to the customer, not as a change, just this is the experience and lean into that. That's, that's kind of what I would do. And then also I think these micro innovations, I would probably stop announcing and I would batch them into significant things. Kind of like I've done with my newsletter consumption. Because I can't, I would not, I would have no time if I read all of those, you know, every day. But I also know it's unlikely, like it's unlikely I'm going to be left behind in a few weeks. So I can scroll through and find the things that seem to be the big deal based on the frequency or of the, you know, of what they're being taught, how often they're being talked about. And if it's everybody's talking about Gemini 2.6, then okay, I should probably know about that. If everybody's talking about Fire Studio, I should probably look into that a little bit. But if there was an announcement about Fire Studio and Gem Studio and you know, Megalon Studio and that's it one time, I probably wouldn't be leaning into that. So those would be my two things. I'd love to hear what your thoughts are.
- [16:13]
Ryan Dice
Yeah, I love that because I do think at times there are times in the market where people are more abundance minded and there are times when they're more scarcity minded and I think when they're more abundance minded, then you should basically be promising addition through addition. So it's all about more and you get this and it's the extras and people don't care so much about. They don't necessarily need you to connect the dots on why this additional feature is going to be so much better for their life. They're just happy to have more because they just trust and believe that more is better. Right. And they're like, yay, more Right. This is so good because everything is good and everything's happy and I've got so much room for all of, you know, there's so much room for activities. Right. So that's kind of the more, you know, the addition by addition, the more is more. I think where we're in right now from a market cycle and from a market mentality perspective is really in addition through subtraction. And so what we should more be selling is more that end result, that idea. And this is what, you know, the same thing that you were saying is not just, hey, we have this new feature or we did this new thing, but specifically we've got this new thing because it's going to make your life easier. And that's where I believe right now, if we can really lean into not, I've got this thing for you, isn't it great? But I've got this thing for you. Here's how it's going to buy you back some more of your time. Here's how it's going to buy you back some more of your sanity. I think that really is what, you know, what I think consumers are telling us. So I would say, and what was in my mind as I was reading this is it's worth going through and evaluating, doing an audit of all of our marketing copy and just saying, where are we promising big? Like, where are we making big, overwhelming promises that maybe we could actually promise less but faster? Right. Where we could not so much speak. And it's classic, like features and benefits. But I do think that there's been a season where the simply stacking of the features gave you an edge. I think we're now shifting into a thing where you better connect it to a very specific intangible benefit that ideally is achieved very, very quickly. So I'm going to do like an overwhelm audit was kind of an idea that I had. Like, in what way does it seem overwhelming even if it should be perceived as beneficial? And that could be in how we're describing a given product or service, how we're describing a particular feature. In any of this, does it. Does it seem kind of overwhelming? I also love what you said, and I was thinking about this too. I wrote down innovate incrementally as opposed to always just throwing out a bunch of little things. Hey, we did this. Hey, we did this. Hey, we did this. Which was rewarded in the past. Yeah, like, that's what software was like, hey, you should ship a new feature like every week. I remember my buddy David Cancel, who's the CEO and founder of Drift.com very fast growing startup. You know, in the, you know, 2016, 2017, 28, 2018. That was their whole strategy was to just always be making product announcements. I don't know if that's necessarily the best, would be the best strategy today. I like what you said about batch it deliver one really, really, really big thing that's that people can say like, okay, that's meaningful. That's really worth paying attention to. Try to suck up all the oxygen.
- [19:47]
Roland Frazier
You could call it, you know, a, it's, it's the, you know, it's the Iridium update or whatever. And then it's got 42 different cool things. But you're not talking about the 42 things. You're talking about the experience in the, the increased benefits of the Iridium update. Right? You're not talking about, you know, and now we can, you know, we can talk to our phone and now we can do this. The other two things that came to my mind while you were talking too is product range. That if you look at what Steve Jobs did when he came in and Mac had all of these too many products and it was confusing the customer. I think that's an issue for the AI companies right now. I think you've got, When I hit the pull down list on ChatGPT and I've got 14 different models to choose from, it's just too much.
- [20:48]
Hey, Roland Frazier here.
- [20:49]
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- [20:51]
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- [21:03]
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- [21:05]
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- [21:54]
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- [21:56]
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