Podcast Summary: Business Lunch with Roland Frasier

Episode: The Collapse of the Funnel: How Trust Now Drives Every Purchase
Date: October 9, 2025
Hosts: Roland Frasier (B), Ryan Deiss (A)

Overview

In this episode, Roland Frasier and Ryan Deiss dismantle the traditional four-stage customer journey, revealing how the classic sales and marketing funnel has "collapsed" into a more fluid, trust-driven process. They explore how modern consumers make buying decisions, the death of step-by-step funnels, and why trust—across three distinct types—is now the linchpin of every purchase. With practical frameworks, notorious case studies, and actionable tactics, the hosts guide listeners on how to master the new customer journey.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Collapsed Funnel: From Sequence to Spontaneity

• The old linear funnel is dead; buyers now make decisions more like popcorn popping at unpredictable times.
• As Ryan explains at [02:17], "The buying process is not a funnel, it's a popcorn popper. Everybody's in there... they're going to pop when they pop. Your job is to be ready... have the lid on so that when they pop, they pop in your pot. That lid is trust."
• Content and presence across relevant channels are critical, but trust—built in new ways—is what keeps buyers with you.

2. Three New Foundations of Trust

The episode dives deeply into three types of trust that drive conversions in today's market:

A. Identity Trust

• Covered in a previous episode, but recapped here: Consumers must see themselves in your brand/message.
• The shortcut: "Mirror, Micro, Media"
  • Mirror: Customer sees themselves in the representative.
  • Micro: Use micro-influencers to amplify.
  • Media: Go beyond owned channels.
• Identity trust is about relatability. As Roland puts it, "You see yourself in the person who is speaking on behalf of the company" ([03:33]).

B. Competence Trust ([04:46]-[18:44])

• The brand must show it "gets" the customer and can solve their problems—be empathetic, not just instructive.
• Example: Nike's shift from the "Just Do It" command ("the brand is a drill sergeant") to their new ethos, "Why Do It?" This makes the brand "an empathetic partner" ([06:05]).
• "Messaging being clear on who it is that you're talking to is very, very, very important." — Ryan ([06:46])
• Results of Personalization:
  • Nike's tailored ads = +15% AOV, +25% retention, +30% loyalty.
  • Sephora's tutorials = +13% basket size.
• Framework:
  • Why: Start with "why" it matters (e.g., busting myths, addressing pain points).
  • What: Demo how your product/service resolves it.
  • Where: Direct CTA—remove friction to buy.
• Cautionary Tale:
  • Peloton's 2019 holiday ad, seen as sexist and tone-deaf, caused a 15% stock drop ($1.5B loss) due to tone-deaf messaging ([09:26]).
  • "When you give a name to someone's pain, that's the ultimate way to demonstrate competence... it's what doctors do." — Ryan ([14:37])
• Action Steps:
  1. Script and film myth-busting or value-driven short videos.
  2. Publish on reels/shorts with clear CTAs.
  3. Track leads and measure lift (expect 10-15% AOV increase).

C. Proximity Trust ([19:27]-[37:59])

• Trust is highest when content comes from insiders: employees, staff, customers.
• Case Studies:
  • DSW’s AR in-store mirrors, amplified by employees’ own social posts, boosted media reach by 561% ([21:48]).
  • Starbucks Barista TikToks and Apple's retail "specialists" create authentic, real-world experiences.
  • Chipotle’s guacamole ads (would be more powerful if shot informally on iPhone, Ryan notes at [28:13]).
• Framework: People, Place, Proof
  • People: Put relatable insiders at center.
  • Place: Film in real-life/relatable settings.
  • Proof: Show visible, tangible results (before/after, live demo, process).
• Actionable Example:
  • Local plumbing co.: Techs film “before/after” TikToks at job sites; team and individual incentives for reach/leads; expect 15–20% conversion lift ([31:38]–[32:50]).
  • "If you can get your employees to share honestly, it’s a massive credibility builder. Most people are employees—not celebrities. It just adds trust." — Ryan ([25:02])
• Risks:
  • Proximity trust can backfire (e.g. United Airlines’ viral passenger-dragging scandal led to global outrage, stock losses, and broken trust) ([29:03]).
• Team Incentives:
  • Layer team rewards for group participation plus prizes for individual top performers ([32:50]).

3. Executing the New Trust-Driven Funnel (14-Day Sprint)

Roland & Ryan outline a practical "trust sprint":

Day 1: Pick a product/service and establish baseline CAC/AOV
Days 2-3: Recruit 3 customers and 3 insiders (no "influencers" needed)
Days 4-7: Record short, authentic videos using the frameworks
Day 8: Post all content
Days 9-12: Boost the top performers
Days 13-14: Measure results and compare to baseline

What to do with a $500 test budget:

• Founder should lead as the “trust agent” (identity trust).
• Post multiple pieces, boost the best ([36:33]).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Death of the Funnel:

  "The buying process is not a funnel, it's a popcorn popper... your job is just to be there and to be ready... That lid is trust." — Ryan, [02:17]

• Competence Trust:

  "The ultimate way to demonstrate competence is to speak your prospect's problem better than they can." — Ryan, [18:09]

• Power of Employee Advocacy:

  "If you can get your employees to share honestly, it's a massive credibility builder... It just adds trust." — Ryan, [25:02]

• Desirable Friction:

  "Frictionless is forgettable, but a desired kind of friction, like 'did I write my lease off wrong?'... that's friction, but it's not like fingernails on a chalkboard." — Roland, [15:50]

• On Starting With Yourself:

  "If you can model [posting] first, it's great... For people who say, 'but I don't want to do it,' I hear you! I don't either, I just think this is part of the job today." — Ryan, [38:12]

• Mnemonic for Action:

  "We have a mnemonic for you: MAP.
  M: Mirror, Micro, Media (Identity)
  A: Answer—Why, What, Where (Competence)
  P: People, Place, Proof (Proximity)" — Roland, [38:31]

Practical Takeaways

• The traditional sequential funnel is obsolete. Build trust "lids" across all marketing and sales channels.
• Activate all three trust types (identity, competence, proximity) via social content, honest messaging, and leveraging micro-influencers and insiders.
• "Action playbooks" (step-by-step short-form content campaigns) are accessible and trackable, even for businesses with small budgets.
• Empower employees and existing customers as advocates for unrivaled reach and authenticity.
• Be wary: proximity trust is powerful but dangerous when mishandled publicly.

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:17] – Popcorn popper analogy; the new model
• [03:33] – Identity trust recap: mirror, micro, media
• [04:46] – Differentiating identity vs. competence trust
• [06:05] – Nike’s “Why Do It?” and generational empathy
• [09:26] – Peloton’s $1.5B ad disaster
• [11:59] – “Why, What, Where” framework for competence trust
• [18:09] – Competence = Name the prospect’s pain
• [21:48] – Proximity trust and DSW’s AR mirror case study
• [25:02] – Employee posts’ unique credibility
• [29:03] – United Airlines viral video and the cost of failed proximity trust
• [31:38] – Action plan for SMEs: plumbing company example
• [36:33] – $500 test: Start with the founder, focus on traction, boost what's working
• [38:31] – The “MAP” mnemonic for the three trust frameworks

Tone & Final Thoughts

Lively, practical, and sometimes irreverent, Roland and Ryan invite listeners to drop old-school marketing dogma and “lean into” a trust-first playbook. Their frameworks blend data, psychology, and hands-on tactics, all with a founder-centric focus. The message: Adapt or be forgotten. Brands that master these three types of trust will win both today’s and tomorrow’s customers.

“The days of companies controlling the funnel in the sales pipeline are over... Consumers are gonna buy the way that they want to buy... Lean into this or get forgotten. The brands that do will win.” — Ryan, [39:32]

For more actionable deep dives:

• Listen to the previous episode on “Identity Trust”
• Check out the “Embedded Influencer” episode for in-depth influencer strategies
• Apply the MAP mnemonic to your next marketing campaign

Podcast: Business Lunch with Roland Frasier
Episode: The Collapse of the Funnel: How Trust Now Drives Every Purchase
Release: October 9, 2025