The Ethics of Outsourcing Yourself

Summary

Business Lunch Podcast Summary

Title: The Ethics of Outsourcing Yourself
Hosts: Roland Frasier & Ryan Deiss
Release Date: June 27, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Business Lunch, hosts Roland Frasier and Ryan Deiss delve into a contemporary workplace trend that challenges traditional employment ethics: outsourcing oneself. This practice, often referred to as employing "shadow stand-ins," involves employees delegating their job responsibilities to third parties without their employers' knowledge. The hosts explore the implications, ethical dilemmas, and potential repercussions of this emerging phenomenon.

Understanding Shadow Stand-Ins

Roland Frasier initiates the discussion by referencing an insightful article titled "Shadowy Way New Employees Are Cheating to Get to the Top or the Rise of Shadow Stand-Ins." He summarizes the concept:

"Employees are outsourcing their jobs or parts of their jobs to other people, acting like mini-agencies. For example, someone might be working multiple full-paying jobs by hiring others from countries like the Philippines to handle tasks while they reap the financial benefits."
[01:11]

Ryan Deiss adds, highlighting the deceptive nature of this practice:

"It's just kind of gross... they've decided that they want to get one over on the man and I think that's the mentality."
[00:19]

Ethical Implications

The hosts grapple with the moral quandaries surrounding outsourcing oneself. Deiss poses a critical ethical test:

"If this came up in a work setting, would you freely admit that you were doing this? If asked, would you kind of... would you be like, oh, yeah, I'm doing it?"
[04:00]

They conclude that the lack of transparency inherently makes the practice deceptive:

"You are being intentionally deceptive."
[04:02]

Roland concurs, emphasizing that such deception undermines workplace trust and culture.

Legal and Operational Risks

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the legal liabilities employers might face if employees engage in outsourcing without authorization:

"If you're a coder and you've outsourced your programming to someone in another country without proper agreements, you could open yourself and your company up to massive lawsuits."
[09:25]

They discuss scenarios where intellectual property (IP) rights could be compromised, leading to potential financial and reputational damages for businesses.

The Hypocrisy Factor

Deiss points out the hypocrisy inherent in shadow outsourcing:

"You're doing it too. It's this like bizarro Robin Hood thing... you steal from the rich and keep it for yourself."
[14:31]

They argue that while employees might view themselves as leveling the playing field against exploitative corporations, their methods are inherently dishonest and self-serving.

Best Practices for Employers

To combat this issue, Roland and Deiss suggest proactive measures for employers:

1. Update Employee Handbooks: Clearly outline policies against unauthorized outsourcing and the use of external agencies.

2. Encourage Open Communication: Foster an environment where employees feel comfortable discussing workload challenges and seeking legitimate support.

3. Offer Support Systems: Provide tools like AI, Robotic Process Automation (RPA), or official virtual assistants to help employees manage tasks efficiently without resorting to deception.

"If you have ideas on how to be more efficient and effective, most good employers are going to want to hear that. They're going to be happy to help you."
[23:16]

Promoting a Transparent Workplace Culture

The hosts advocate for transparency and honesty within organizations:

"If somebody came and admitted to outsourcing their work, it should be seen as an opportunity for promotion rather than a breach of trust."
[15:21]

They suggest that honest efforts to increase productivity through legitimate means should be rewarded, contrasting sharply with the clandestine nature of shadow outsourcing.

Conclusion

Roland Frasier and Ryan Deiss wrap up the episode by emphasizing the importance of maintaining ethical standards in the workplace. They caution against the allure of short-term gains through deceptive practices, urging both employers and employees to prioritize integrity and open communication.

"Just don't do it. Let people know. Let the employees know what you're doing and how you're going to go about it."
[32:02]

Key Takeaways

• Shadow Stand-Ins: Employees outsourcing their tasks without employer knowledge poses ethical and legal risks.
• Deception: Lack of transparency in outsourcing undermines trust and workplace culture.
• Legal Liabilities: Unauthorized outsourcing can lead to significant legal and financial consequences for businesses.
• Employer Strategies: Updating policies, encouraging open dialogue, and providing legitimate support systems can mitigate the issue.
• Promoting Honesty: Fostering an environment where employees can openly seek assistance leads to a healthier, more productive workplace.

Notable Quotes

• Ryan Deiss (@00:19): "They've decided that they want to get one over on the man and I think that's the mentality."
• Roland Frasier (@04:00): "You are being intentionally deceptive."
• Ryan Deiss (@14:31): "It's this like bizarro Robin Hood thing... you steal from the rich and keep it for yourself."
• Ryan Deiss (@23:16): "They're going to want to hear that. They're going to be happy to help you."
• Ryan Deiss (@32:02): "Just don't do it. Let people know."

Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a crucial reminder of the importance of ethics and transparency in today's dynamic work environments. By addressing the nuances of shadow outsourcing, Business Lunch provides valuable insights for both employers and employees striving to foster trust and maintain integrity in their professional relationships.

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If you enjoyed this episode, please share it and follow Business Lunch on social media. Engage with us and share your thoughts on this pressing issue. Until next time, thanks for joining us at the table!

Transcript

[Ryan Deiss]

Yeah, I mean if you go and.

[Roland Frazier]

Read it again, we'll link up to the article itself. If you want to search for it. Is the shadowy way new employees are cheating to get to the top or the rise of shadow stand ins. Again, we'll link it up in the notes.

[Ryan Deiss]

But just to hear some of the things that these people say and how they describe the work they do, it's just kind of gross, right? Like they, they've decided that they want to get one over on the man and I think that's the mentality.

[Roland Frazier]

I love this, this quote here.

[Unknown]

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of.

Business Lunch with your host Roland Frazier. That's me. And my wonderful co host and business partner Ryan Deiss. Ryan, how are you doing today?

[Ryan Deiss]

I am doing exceptionally well. How about yourself?

[Unknown]

I, I don't know, I'm feeling kind of shadowy. A little bit shadowy. Shadowy at all.

[Roland Frazier]

It's the segue. No, I am kind of losing my mind a little bit. That's total hyperbole. It's not that big a deal. But I did love this article that you sent me and some of the implications around it. So why don't you set it up?

[Unknown]

Let's dive in.

[Roland Frazier]

What are we talking about today?

[Unknown]

Yeah, so this was something that's, we kind of like we've heard of the great resignation and quiet quitting and all the other fun things that are, that are out there. And now there was talk about this shadow stand in thing. So that's where employees are outsourcing their jobs or parts of their jobs to other people. And basically they, they will act kind of as mini agencies. I guess it would be like they turn, you know, if they've got a job creating ads, let's say for somebody that they then will hire somebody else to help them with the words and they'll hire somebody else to help them with the creative, you know, the, the pics and you know, and so on and so forth. And then they'll go out and get multiple, they'll apply and be working. Like one person said they were working 5American salary full paying jobs and outsourcing to the Philippines while themselves living in the Philippines and basically making a killing. Now I guess all of the questions around that would be the employees don't know. I'm. Excuse me, the employers don't know in any of these situations as well. So is it dishonest? Is it okay? Do we not care because we're only paying for a result? Are we losing the value of what we think we should be getting when we pay a salary when we're effectively not really getting the person that we pay the salary to. You know, lots and lots of issues around that. So I thought it'd be fun to just kind of riff on it.

[Ryan Deiss]

Yeah. Did you have any initial thoughts as.

[Roland Frazier]

You were going through?

[Unknown]

I do, but since I introed it, why don't you give me your thoughts?

[Ryan Deiss]

So I'm trying to approach this from.

[Roland Frazier]

The perspective of, you know, my, you know, kids are grown and they're coming back for Thanksgiving, and it's like, how's your job going? And they go, oh, it's amazing. I basically have outsourced my entire job. Like, so I got this job, and I'm making pretty good money. But I realized, like, I can pay other people to do the work for me, and it freed up all my time. And so, yeah, it's really great. I'm trying to think if, as both a dad and an entrepreneur, a business owner, if I would be proud or.

[Ryan Deiss]

If I would be annoyed. And the more I thought about it.

[Roland Frazier]

The more I realized it does come down to this con. You know, this idea of deception.

[Ryan Deiss]

Like, is this inherently deceptive?

[Roland Frazier]

And I guess, you know, the.

[Ryan Deiss]

The test that I did when I was thinking through it is if this came up in a work setting, would you freely admit that you were doing this? If asked, would you kind of. Would you be like, oh, yeah, hey.

[Roland Frazier]

I'm doing it, you know, if asked.

[Ryan Deiss]

And if no, then I think you have to admit that it's deceptive that you are.

[Roland Frazier]

You are being intentionally, you know, deceptive.

[Ryan Deiss]

So I don't think I buy the argument of, you know what, as we pay people to get stuff done, not necessarily to do it, because that's on one hand, I think that's true.

[Roland Frazier]

Right.

[Ryan Deiss]

You pay people to get something done. You don't necessarily care how they do it, except you kind of do. And I think you do for a couple reasons. The first is just privacy concerns. To the extent that there's any sort.

[Roland Frazier]

Of, you know, proprietary intellectual property, to.

[Ryan Deiss]

The extent that somebody's dealing with any customer records or customer data, if somebody is giving that custody to somebody else, well, that's bad.

[Roland Frazier]

So just right off the bat, we have to acknowledge, like, that would be.

[Ryan Deiss]

A big fat no, no. But also, there's something to. No, no.

[Roland Frazier]

I hired you and your particular skill.

[Ryan Deiss]

Set, and I'm not getting that. I'm getting something less than. And if I hired. If I'm hiring you to be a manager, then I want to know that you have the skills of a manager. I think a lot of these people who are attempting this are going to discover, as a lot of people do.

[Roland Frazier]

When they get into, you know, when they start growing their careers, that doing.

[Ryan Deiss]

A task and managing other people to.

[Roland Frazier]

Do that task are two fundamentally different things. And even a couple of people in the articles mentioned like, you know, it worked until I realized that the work product of the people I was outsourcing it to kind of sucked, right? And so I had to go back and like redo it again.

[Ryan Deiss]

So I think for a lot of reasons, the way that they're doing it.

[Roland Frazier]

This idea of the shadow aspect of it.

[Unknown]

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[Roland Frazier]

It's just a bad idea.

[Ryan Deiss]

I think it's bad. I think it's dishonest.

[Roland Frazier]

And I think if I discovered that somebody was doing it, I'd probably fire them.

[Unknown]

What do you think?

The other challenge that I have is that what I'm paying for when I hire an employee, employee versus an agency, is full access at any time during the work hours. And if you are running effectively an agency and you've got multiple people that you are owing your loyalty to, you're not going to be there when I need you. So I have a problem with the deceptive part of it. I have a problem with the fact that I won't have the access I need. And I have a problem with not knowing who's getting access to my stuff because these people are giving their logins to lots of different people and several of them said that they were working for different government jobs that had security access. And so now they've got security access or access to my stuff and they're sending out the logins to their access to my stuff to people I don't know and that we don't understand who they are or have any recourse to deal with or any. I mean, I think it's bad on all those fronts. As far as. As far as like the. The what you get, I am much more results oriented. Like, if I hire an employee to accomplish the following five things and they're giving me all of that work at the quality that we've agreed, then I'm not unhappy from that standpoint. But I definitely think that it's wrong to effectively. It'd be like you came and interviewed for a job with me and I'm like, holy crap, you're going to do my digital marketing and you're Ryan Dice and look at your rep and all that kind of stuff. And then you're like, yeah, totally, man. I'm there. I'm for you. And then you give it to somebody in the Philippines. And now I think it also harms your reputation because it's like, man, I thought Ryan was really good at this stuff. But I mean, it seems like almost like it's a second language to. It's like, I think you would. You would definitely get that. And our experience with agencies time and time again is that they don't ever successfully scale because they can't get past the, you know, the one person. And I'm saying most of the agencies we deal with, obviously there's giant agencies out there that you know that are successful, but really it's, you get sold on a person who's going to deliver a result the way that they deliver it and then you're not getting that and that's who you interacted with. They represented that they were going to do it and they just flat out lied to you. But I think that you hit you, you, you aren't getting what you were told you were going to get. You were lied to. And so I just have a problem with that generally. So that, that would be my biggest challenge with it. And, and all the other stuff. I definitely, I mean I like the idea of if, if you are the super employee because we talk about this as a concept, you can have super employees where you go and hire a virtual person or a virtual assistant or somebody you know, in a foreign country or whatever to help that person do their rote tasks. Or you empower them by giving them rpa, the robotic process automation or AI to support what they do. I don't think we have any issue with any of that because we know what's going on. But truly, outsourcing the core thing that I hired you for, I got a problem with it.

[Ryan Deiss]

Yeah, I mean if you go and.

[Roland Frazier]

Read it again, we'll link up to the article itself. If you want to search for it is the shadowy way new employees are cheating to get to the top or the rise of shadow stand ins. Again, we'll link it up in the notes.

[Ryan Deiss]

But just to hear some of the things that these people say and how they describe the work they do, it's just kind of gross, right? Like they, they've decided that they want to get one over on the man. And I think that's the mentality.

[Roland Frazier]

I love this, this quote here I'll read directly from the article. It says others like the Southern California developer Branded Nowak, which never frickin hire.

[Ryan Deiss]

This dude, have contemplated dipping their toe in the water. He told me that shadow stand ins are inevitable outcome to our system of making money. And this is his quote. Companies themselves are taking advantage of you by hiring you to do work which they reap more value from you than they give up. They're taking advantage of you because they're getting more value than they give up. That is the basis of capitalism. I'm not anti capitalistic necessarily, but I don't fault anyone, myself included, for looking to turn those tables on the companies themselves. And he goes on to say for profit corporations are government sanctioned psychopaths existing only to predatorially and parasitically earn profit. This was, I'm sorry, this is another.

[Roland Frazier]

Person who said this. I don't want to credit. Yeah, the other person.

[Ryan Deiss]

Corporations are owed no moral obligation whatsoever, any more than a hen owns a fox. Moral consideration. The only rational response is to extract.

[Roland Frazier]

As much value as possible.

[Ryan Deiss]

What a whiny crybaby, communistic woke little freaking snowflake. I hope this person gets fired. And it just is gross. So gross. So I mean I definitely have thoughts on this. What's your response?

[Unknown]

Well, I mean, I think anyone who employs either of those people who have now identified themselves out in public is just asking for trouble. But what a childish concept to say that number one, corporations are, are made up of people. So we're saying that like the people who are working at the corporation whose jobs depend on managing and selecting good people to discharge the duties of the corporation are going to be impacted if you lie, cheat and steal from them. And the shareholders who invest in the company and the, the clients that the custom, the company sells. It's to me setting up this straw thing in the middle that you, that absolves you from all responsibility to be truthful and a good human being. And the other gentleman, you know, is truly the, it is that kind of communist concept of like there should be no, I should give no additional value that, that I should take all of the value for myself and not create any additional value for anyone else out in the world. What a terrible world it would be if the world were full of those people. So, you know, so I have, I have giant challenges with it from a moral standpoint of the, the fox to the, you know, to the hen and the predatory parasitic. I mean, gosh, like that's just, I guess anti capitalism at its, at its best.

[Ryan Deiss]

And can we also just acknowledge the hypocrisy of it? Because what is this person doing to the person in the Philippines, right?

[Unknown]

Paying them 100% of the salary that they're getting.

[Ryan Deiss]

Oh my God, like how do they not see their own hypocrisy? Like you're doing it too. It's this like bizarro Robin Hood thing. Only instead of steal from the rich and give to the poor, it's merely just steal from the rich and keep it for yourself. Like just it. Like I was, oddly enough I started off when I read this article. I'm like, you know, what kind of good for them if they're being efficient with their thing. As an employer, I'm more interested in the thing getting done than how it, than them doing it. I'm kind of for it. And then I saw the mentality that's behind a lot of this stuff and it's just gross. It's not just anti capitalistic, it's just flat out dishonest. And it is also, you know, exactly what it describes. So I would just know. Now here's what I would like. I'm trying to think, putting on my.

[Roland Frazier]

Employer hat for a second. Here's what I would love for someone to do.

[Ryan Deiss]

I would love for someone who, if they worked for us, to come to us and say, hey, so I had some realizations. I was doing some research, looking around and I can actually hire some outsourcers.

[Roland Frazier]

For X amount of money to do.

[Ryan Deiss]

Like 80% of the actual like doing.

[Roland Frazier]

Like the typing on the computer stuff that it's doing.

[Ryan Deiss]

And so if you'll give me a little bit more budget, I believe that I can manage three or four of these people and dramatically, you know, increase my output. And for that I should probably deserve a raise or a promotion. Like I believe that these people, they're not, because they're so scarcity minded in their thinking, they're not realizing that what they are doing is called building a team. And the fact that your team members live in another country and the fact that you can pay them less does not is not a reason to exploit them. And it is a reason to say, I think I might be ready for this pesky management thing. I think I might be ready to grow promotion because I can produce more output through the management of additional people and systems than I can produce by myself. Those kind of people, I would love nothing more than to give them more money because they are producing more value. And guess what, you twitchy little twerp, Kevin, that is how economies are built. That's how people get to eat food on an ongoing, continuous basis.

[Unknown]

So yeah, the, the, the, I agree with you. I think, I think that that is the approach. And also I don't want them hiring people. So like if they're my employee, if they're my employee, then there's all kinds of legal challenges. So, okay, now you've outsourced your work. Let's say you're a coder because I saw a lot of this is happening in the tech world. So you're a coder and I've hired you to do something and you've signed my legal agreement that says, you know, invention assignment, IP is mine, that you create, because as for the company, et cetera. But now you hire somebody in Ukraine or India to do the programming. And now they've programmed, now they've got a claim on that code that's not covered by you. And you don't have an agreement with them, and you can't transfer that to me. Now I go to sell the company and in due diligence we find out that there's been some of the shadow stuff going on. Now I don't own all my ip and it's because you lied to me. And now you've opened yourself to a giant lawsuit from me. You probably don't have the money to pay it, but I mean, I'm mad. And now I've got a judgment against you for 300 million, which I was going to sell the company for. That didn't go through because, I mean, it's like. Or I have to spend 170,000 with attorneys to go track down the person who did the programming. And now I'm going to send you that bill. You're setting yourself up for a lot of liability. Plus, all these people are outside our compliance from a employment standpoint. If you're doing people in, in the Philippines, most people don't set up, even if those people are employees. And the local laws in several of these countries now require you, if you have just even minimal requirements to go and do payroll and taxes and all this other stuff. And now you're out of compliance with all of that stuff. I mean, it's a rat's nest of liability for these people who are not business people, who are just like. One of the, I think ladies in there said that she hired. She gave some of it to her husband and then she gave some to a friend, and that was the one that ended up not performing. She had to let him go. It's like she's opened herself to all kinds of liability. She's not paying payroll taxes or any of that kind of stuff. Are those people who are doing work for them. That's being done for me, for my employee now through. There's a thing called responde at Superior that says the employer is liable for the acts of the employee if they're in the course of the job now, in the course of their employment, they've hired these people and now they sexually harass them. And then that person comes and sues me because my employee, I mean, like, I can go on for a long Time of bad ideas, you know, around why this is not smart for the people who are doing it or for the employee, employer. So in terms of just like straight legal liability, you're setting yourself up and your employer for all kinds of potential challenges that you're not thinking about, you know, and all those costs that the employer would have of hiring those people, you should be paying too, because you're now effectively an employer, you know, by the way, what about payroll taxes? Do you think that she's paying payroll taxes on what she's giving to the husband? You know, all kinds of challenges there. So, yeah, I'm, I'm. But, but going back to your model of, hey, I've got. I found some people and I'd like to hire them as great. We will interview them and we will hire them and give you those resources if that makes you more effective. And now you've shown initiative, management potential. You know, I want to advance you. I'm happy to build a team under you right now. We've done that the right way, both from a legal, moral, ethical standpoint and the right people are reporting to the right people who are being paid the right way with the right taxes and benefits. And also, by the way, you're cheating all those people out of the benefits that we offer because I guarantee you most of these people aren't offering any kind of benefit. So they're actually probably worse off and more predatory and parasitic than the evil corporations that are being referred to.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah, almost certainly. And that, like I said, just the hypocrisy is just astounding.

[Ryan Deiss]

So what do you, I mean, as.

[Roland Frazier]

A, as far as an action item, like, you know, we're employers, we employ people.

[Ryan Deiss]

I was thinking when I, when I read this, because I do believe that this is going to become more prevalent.

[Roland Frazier]

I'm sure that it's happened at varying times at our, at our companies. You know, we've got a number of companies and a number of people work there. So the chance that somebody who works.

[Ryan Deiss]

For us has already done something or.

[Roland Frazier]

Is actively doing something like this is similar.

[Ryan Deiss]

So I'm thinking, and I know that.

[Roland Frazier]

We have team members who listen to this podcast wisely because they know that it's an opportunity to kind of hear what we're thinking.

[Ryan Deiss]

I was thinking it may make sense to reevaluate your employee handbook and, you know, exactly what are the do's and don'ts that you have in there. And perhaps having a clause for no shadow, you know, shadow stand ins are not allowed.

[Roland Frazier]

You're not Allowed to use company money to hire this without company approval. Anything, you know, software purchasing, like, need.

[Ryan Deiss]

To go through the company and even to use this. Because then if you say, like, hey, we're instituting this new policy, you can't.

[Roland Frazier]

Do this thing that can just come out, like, uncool.

[Ryan Deiss]

I think it's an opportunity. I think all employers have an opportunity to use this, to implement a formal policy around it and to say, we don't want you doing this for all the legal liability reasons, but we do want to encourage you, if you see an opportunity to scale yourself to be more productive than through the hiring of outsourcers through software, make that known, because.

[Roland Frazier]

That can perhaps be a path to promotion.

[Ryan Deiss]

So one path, the deceptive path, is.

[Roland Frazier]

A path to getting fired and potentially sued. The other path is a potential path for promotion within the company.

[Ryan Deiss]

And I think, just to make it clear that those are the two paths, it's not just stick like there's a carrot involved here, too.

[Unknown]

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think what employer would not welcome the opportunity to have a more efficient and effective employee and get the results faster and better than they would through a different way? I can't think of anyone that would. You know, it's like, no, we've. We've reached. We said we'd never have more than eight employees, Bob. So we can't hire that person that's going to.

[Ryan Deiss]

And it's important to me that you labor. I want to know that you're truly laboring over this, that you finish every day, very tired, mentally and physically.

[Roland Frazier]

That's important to me.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Ryan Deiss]

That's ridiculous. Nobody wants that.

[Unknown]

Yeah, but I do like it, and I agree with you 100%. I think that from a legal standpoint, in employee handbooks and employment agreements, it definitely should be something that you clarify, and I think you should explain why it's like, it's not because we're parasitic and. What was it? And predatory.

[Ryan Deiss]

Predatory and parasitic, yeah.

[Unknown]

That we have this policy. It's because there is liability that is associated with it. And there's a lot of challenges from a legal standpoint and honestly, from a moral and ethical standpoint, we want the people that work for us who are employees to be employees, so they get the benefits that we offer. So there's. There's multiple reasons that are good for us to do it this way. So if you do find yourself in that situation, I think it's just explained that way. If you do find yourself in a situation where you say, I could be so much more efficient. If only I had somebody that did this stuff. Maybe we can solve that with AI number one. Maybe we can solve that with rpa, you know, or if we can't, maybe we can solve it with another human and let's bring them in and let them have the benefits of working with us too. Because if it's truly an efficiency for us to realize, why wouldn't we do that? Right. We want to support you in every way. Just as you might want training or tools to do the things you do, you might need assistance. And we are pro that. As long as we know about it and we have it within the corporate environment that we've created for that. That's. I think that's it is. It makes so much more sense to do that than, than this. And maybe it feels. The whole shadow thing, I mean, obviously it's a pejorative term to start with in the article, but like, just the idea that you're sneaking around doing this is kind of evidence of its impropriety, I think.

[Ryan Deiss]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Would you admit it if it was. If somebody came like, hey, so you're doing like, oh, yeah, isn't it awesome? You know, if you, if you're, if you wouldn't say that, if you wouldn't proudly announce what you're doing, then that means you're probably ashamed of it or, you know, it's against the rules and you're going to have repercussions.

[Roland Frazier]

That means that you're being deceptive, means.

[Ryan Deiss]

That you're being dishonest.

[Roland Frazier]

And that's not going to build culture.

[Ryan Deiss]

And it certainly isn't going to give.

[Roland Frazier]

You any moral high ground over the predatory, parasitic corporate, you know, people that you work for, which, by the way, are also called people. And if you work for a public company, good chance that stock is held in a bunch of teacher pensions and stuff like that. That's what I was. Yeah. Holy crap.

[Unknown]

People are like, oh, that company got slapped with a $400 million fine. It's like, you know, who really ought to get hit with that is the jerk that did the bad thing. Punishing the company like that is punishing the shareholders who are everyday people. You know, they're funds. But the funds are generally made up not just of a few fat cat finance people on Wall Street. They're made up of, like you said, teachers and fire, you know, firefighters and airline workers and, you know, just normal people who get hugely affected by stuff like this. It's so irresponsible and shortsighted to say the things those two people said.

[Ryan Deiss]

I would like to make one other comment.

[Roland Frazier]

I know we can, we can close this, this out.

[Ryan Deiss]

I think it's important to acknowledge, and it's a little speech that I have anytime somebody joins the company at a.

[Roland Frazier]

Higher level because I think they're worth it.

[Ryan Deiss]

I wouldn't say this to somebody who's.

[Roland Frazier]

An entry level employee.

[Unknown]

What I've said some people are worth more than other people.

[Ryan Deiss]

Yeah.

[Roland Frazier]

From a direct value of the company.

[Ryan Deiss]

I do.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah. They're absolutely worth more to me.

[Ryan Deiss]

Not as human beings on this earth, but yes, to us.

[Roland Frazier]

But.

[Ryan Deiss]

So, yeah, people who are coming in. I don't know.

[Roland Frazier]

I know that that statement is oddly controversial, but, you know, no, here's me not caring.

[Unknown]

They are higher value players to the entity than to the organization.

[Ryan Deiss]

Right.

[Roland Frazier]

I'm just giving you a hard time. Oh, I know, I know.

[Ryan Deiss]

It is funny though, that the fact.

[Roland Frazier]

That you can give me a hard time on that because we know that there are other people who would just be grasping at their pearls based on such a statement. Those people are not listening to this podcast. So I don't really care.

[Ryan Deiss]

Something that I say to anybody who's coming into the company at a higher level. I say, look, let's make something perfectly clear. This is a mutually exploitative relationship. And I use that term intentionally because I want it to kind of like jar them. But I say, like, it is our job as a company to get as much value as possible, to extract as much value as possible from you, to exploit you air quotes as much as possible. It is similarly your job to try to get as much as you can from this relationship. Right. To get paid as much as you can, to learn as much as you can, to make as many connections as you can. And as long as those two things are aligned with one another, then we're going to work together for a really long time. If at any point in time you feel like you could be getting so much more somewhere else, you should quit. And I don't get to be like, oh, that's not nice or that's disloyal. Right. These are transactional relationships. And yes, loyalty is a factor. Right. But not loyalty, you know, against one's.

[Roland Frazier]

Long term, you know, long term benefit.

[Ryan Deiss]

It just can't be. So this idea that how dare a company try to get as much as possible out of its team, of course they will. That's how they get as much value, take as much value to the marketplace. The employee should be doing the Same thing. As long as those two things are aligned, I think that's called a great transactional relationship.

[Roland Frazier]

This ain't marriage, this ain't family, it's a team.

[Unknown]

I, I only differ in the, in the word explain in as much because I think that the, the desired value for the transaction is articulated by the company in its expectation with its job performance requirements and outcomes and the compensation is dictated by the salary and benefits package that somebody gets. So because I don't like, to me, I'm not trying to get everything like, and I know you're not like this, so I just want to point it out for people that are listening or watching that we're not actually trying to get everything you possibly can out of somebody when they work for you. You're trying to get them to do what you need them to do and within the parameters of the compensation that you've outlined. And if they do that, you're happy and you're not like, oh man, I need you to do more, more, more. You're. That's not how you are. That's not how we are that none of the cultures in our companies. So, so just to temper that, because I get it's a hyperbolic example, but, but it really, the way that we work is we've established values on both sides and we've determined that this is a transactional relationship. Even if there's friendship and loyalty that's involved, ultimately a, an employer employee relationship is transactional and it's based on give me the value that I need you to give me for the compensation that I'm willing to give you. And if you get that, you're happy, right? But you do expect that you get that value. And if you as the provider of the value to the company, go above and beyond, you're going to be appreciated and likely advance and be rewarded for it. And if you're the company and you can pay a salary that's a little bit above market, which we also like to do, then you hope that you're going to get a person who wants to be that person that's going to go above and beyond. But the truth is, is that the base level of the relationship is okay at the agreed upon amounts, like that's the negotiated transaction. So just, I just want people to know because I want people to say, Ryan said he's going to exploit everybody. You're not. And you're not even going to ask them to do beyond what you've already had them agree, you're going to stick by your Side of the deal. I'm going to pay you.

[Ryan Deiss]

What?

[Unknown]

I said I was going to pay you. But if you do great, I'll probably pay you more. And I expect that you're going to do the minimum that we agreed upon. But I will sure appreciate and value and likely compensate you in some way if you go above and beyond. So I just wanted to point that out because I think that's more accurately what you are trying to say.

[Roland Frazier]

Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. A lawyer and a marketer.

[Ryan Deiss]

That's what I say. I have that speech. If it's somebody who is at a.

[Roland Frazier]

Higher level and I have the opportunity to add some more context, if it's.

[Unknown]

One of those people who. More human worth than the other people. Right. That was what you said.

[Ryan Deiss]

Who is, who has less worth?

[Roland Frazier]

Marketers or lawyers?

[Unknown]

Like, as a recovering attorney, I would put lawyers way down.

[Ryan Deiss]

Oh, my gosh, we're all.

[Roland Frazier]

We're terrible people.

[Ryan Deiss]

There you go.

[Unknown]

Well, so there you have it. It is the gospel per business lunch on how to deal with these shadow employee things that are going on. Be honest, you know, tell people what you're doing. If you have good ideas, the company that you actually want to keep working for is going to be excited to hear them. If they can support you, they're going to be excited to support you. And if you, you know, you might be cheating yourself by carving your salary up into little bits to outsource the work, you might be cheating your employer because you are working for five employers instead of one and you can't possibly give the value of five. So, you know, it's. And maybe it all works out, but it's still kind of smarmy. So just don't do it. Just let people know. Let the, Let the employees know what you want. Let the companies that you work for know what you're doing and how you're going to go about it. If you've got ideas on how to be more efficient and effective, most good employers are going to want to hear that. They're going to be happy to help.

[Roland Frazier]

Amen.

[Unknown]

How's that sound? All right, well, hope hopefully you guys enjoyed this episode of Business Launch. If you liked it, please share it and follow and find us on social and talk with us and tell us what you think about all this stuff and we'll see you next time. Thanks.

Hey, Roland Fraser here.

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If you're looking for a way to.

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If you want to double your sales, just acquire a company that has the.

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