Former Virgin Mobile USA executive Stacy Schwartz discusses Richard Branson’s spectacular business journey | 5

Summary

Business Movers: Stacy Schwartz on Richard Branson’s Spectacular Business Journey

Episode Overview: In this episode of Business Movers, host Lindsey Graham engages in an insightful conversation with Stacy Schwartz, a former executive at Virgin Mobile USA. Stacy delves into the intricacies of the Virgin brand, Richard Branson’s leadership, and the successes and challenges faced by Virgin Mobile USA. Through Stacy’s experiences, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of how Virgin has navigated various industries, maintained its unique culture, and continued to innovate under Branson’s visionary leadership.

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1. Introduction to Stacy Schwartz and Virgin Mobile USA

Stacy Schwartz joined Virgin Mobile USA in 2005, five years after the company's inception, and served until 2010. Her tenure provided her with firsthand experience of the Virgin brand's operational and cultural dynamics within the competitive telecommunications industry.

Quote:

“I had a lot of curiosity about the Virgin brand... I was a little skeptical.” — Stacy Schwartz [08:23]

2. Virgin Brand Culture

Initial Impressions

Upon joining Virgin Mobile USA, Stacy anticipated an entrepreneurial and innovative environment typical of the Virgin brand. Contrary to her expectations of a bustling, urban office, she found herself in a suburban setting in Warren, New Jersey.

Quote:

“From the second the elevator doors open, the wallpaper was a mural of Richard Branson's face and music and festivals and some phones.” — Stacy Schwartz [08:51]

Distinctive Environment

The office was decorated with vibrant murals and fostered a relaxed atmosphere, exemplified by informal interactions such as interviewing a chief marketing officer without shoes.

Quote:

“The people there were so down to earth... no bs, that there was no stuffiness, there was no formality.” — Stacy Schwartz [08:51]

3. Culture Driving Business Success

Integration of Culture and Business

Stacy emphasizes that at Virgin, culture isn't just an add-on but the very essence of the business strategy. This cultural foundation prioritizes customer satisfaction and challenges industry norms.

Quote:

“I think the culture is the business.” — Stacy Schwartz [11:36]

Customer-First Approach

Virgin’s strategy revolves around identifying and addressing customer frustrations, thereby disrupting complacent industry standards.

Quote:

“We are customer first thinking, so what is frustrating or annoying a customer?” — Stacy Schwartz [11:36]

4. Virgin’s Strategic Successes

Key Successes

Virgin has achieved significant success by entering and disrupting industries ripe for innovation, such as music with Virgin Records and aviation with Virgin Atlantic.

Quote:

“Virgin Records and Virgin Atlantic were major successes... first to disrupt these major industries.” — Stacy Schwartz [13:27]

Philosophy of Disruption

Virgin targets industries where customers face compromise, introducing simplicity and transparency to differentiate from established competitors.

Quote:

“Looking at industries that were glutted with compromise and to really break those industries that were static because of that compromise.” — Stacy Schwartz [14:42]

5. Risks and Missteps in Diversification

Entering Unbroken Industries

Not all ventures succeed; Virgin Cola and Virgin Brides are cited as examples where the brand failed to identify genuine customer pain points, leading to their downfall.

Quote:

“Virgin Cola... the brand might not actually add any value if customers don't really feel like they need an alternative.” — Stacy Schwartz [15:52]

Importance of Market Research

Stacy highlights the significance of thorough customer research to avoid misallocating brand resources in markets that do not require disruption.

6. Core Principles of Virgin

Empathy and Customer Understanding

A deep empathy for customers drives Virgin’s mission to champion their needs against indifferent industry giants.

Quote:

“Customer first thinking is definitely the first and foremost.” — Stacy Schwartz [16:57]

Challenging the Status Quo

Virgin consistently strives to simplify complex industries, offering clear and fair pricing without hidden fees.

Quote:

“Let’s just be direct about our pricing and clear about what we offer.” — Stacy Schwartz [16:57]

Brand Personality and Empowerment

Virgin infuses a fun and human personality into its brand while empowering employees to take creative risks.

Quote:

“Be human and fun and real... empowering its employees.” — Stacy Schwartz [16:57]

7. The Role of Marketing in Virgin’s Success

Brand as a Core Asset

Marketing is pivotal in maintaining Virgin’s brand identity, which extends beyond traditional advertising to encompass the overall customer experience.

Quote:

“The brand is everything to the group's success... it affects how the product shows up to its customers.” — Stacy Schwartz [26:11]

Bold and Innovative Campaigns

Virgin’s marketing strategies often involve bold stunts and strong partnerships that resonate with their target audience.

Examples:

• Richard Branson’s Times Square Stunts:

  “Richard Branson transcending into Times Square... wearing a naked bodysuit.” — Stacy Schwartz [28:31]

• Sponsorship with Lady Gaga:

  “We partnered with Lady Gaga based on the alignment with her issue, which is LGBTQ rights...” — Stacy Schwartz [28:31]

8. Richard Branson’s Personal Brand and Leadership

Public Persona and Stunts

Richard Branson's visibility is significantly amplified through his public stunts, making him synonymous with the adventurous spirit of the Virgin brand.

Quote:

“He puts himself right there front and center.” — Stacy Schwartz [35:08]

Leadership Style

Branson’s leadership is characterized by trust, optimism, and openness. He encourages creative risks and fosters a collaborative environment across Virgin’s global teams.

Quote:

“Richard believed in trusting people, leading with optimism and an open mind.” — Stacy Schwartz [38:18]

9. Overcoming Challenges and Learning Difficulties

Impact of Dyslexia and Dyscalculia

Branson’s struggles with dyslexia and dyscalculia contributed to his ability to simplify business processes and rely on instinctive decision-making, fostering creativity and collaboration.

Quote:

“It likely forced him to simplify... fostered creativity.” — Stacy Schwartz [41:20]

10. Virgin Galactic and the Future of Space Travel

Inspiration Behind Virgin Galactic

Branson’s venture into space travel aligns with his penchant for pushing boundaries and democratizing previously inaccessible experiences.

Quote:

“It is a chance to democratize something that is previously out of reach.” — Stacy Schwartz [41:32]

Challenges and Profitability

While Virgin Galactic remains unprofitable as of 2025, Stacy views the endeavor as pioneering a new category rather than an immediate profit generator.

Quote:

“I'm not sure the point is that he's pioneering a category.” — Stacy Schwartz [42:41]

11. Richard Branson’s Legacy and Business Lessons

Empathy and Simplification

Stacy underscores the importance of empathy, customer understanding, and simplifying complex business practices as key lessons from Branson’s approach.

Quote:

“Start with empathy, knowing your customer... Simplify everything.” — Stacy Schwartz [44:58]

Maintaining Culture and Boldness

A robust company culture and the courage to make bold moves are essential for business success, as demonstrated by Virgin’s history.

Quote:

“Culture needs to permeate everything... being bold requires courage.” — Stacy Schwartz [44:58]

Business as a Force for Good

Branson exemplifies how businesses can thrive while positively impacting society, supporting both employees and community causes.

Quote:

“Business can be a source for good... be really good for society at the same time.” — Stacy Schwartz [44:58]

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Through Stacy Schwartz’s detailed account, this episode of Business Movers paints a vivid picture of Richard Branson’s enduring influence on Virgin’s multifaceted business empire. It highlights the interplay between company culture, innovative marketing, and leadership that continues to drive Virgin’s successes and address its challenges.

Transcript

[Lindsey Graham]

Want to get more from business movers? Subscribe to Wondery for early access to new episodes, ad free listening and exclusive content you can't find anywhere else. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. It's July 10, 2021, at Spaceport America, a rocket launch and landing site in New Mexico. 70 year old Richard Branson drums his fingers on the gleaming white body of the Unity. As founder of Virgin Atlantic, Richard's flown on countless planes painted in his company's colors. But this one is different. Unity isn't a transatlantic jet. It's a rocket powered plane that can fly more than 50 miles above the Earth's surface. By NASA's definition, that means Unity is capable of reaching space. And tomorrow Richard is going to be on board when Unity's pilots take it up for a test flight. Although Richard is past retirement age, he hasn't lost his appetite for risk. But before he can officially become an astronaut, he needs to meet the press. And given Richard's public profile, the media has turned out in force. Richard turns to greet the next reporter being ushered into the hangar. Good morning. I'm Richard Branson. It's a pleasure to meet you, Mr. Brantz. I'm from Reuters. So how does it feel to be Virgin Galactic's first ever passenger? Let's not jinx it. The flight hasn't taken off yet. Does that mean you're nervous? Oh no, not a bit. This is the adventure of a lifetime. But you aren't worried at all after what happened to the Enterprise seven years ago? Virgin's first space plane broke apart in mid flight, killing one of its pilots. Richard shakes his head sadly. That was a tragic day. But the kind of accident that can happen when you're pushing the boundaries. Still, we've made extensive upgrades since then. And that's why I'm going up as Unity's first passenger. To show how confident I am in the new design. So it's got nothing to do with being the first entrepreneur in space? I heard you weren't originally planning to go until next month, but then you bumped up the date to beat Jeff Bezos. Richard gives a sly smile. One of his main rivals in the modern space race is Amazon founder Jeff Bezos, and he's due to fly on his company's spacecraft in just 10 days time. Well, look, I. I won't lie. Being first has a certain ring to it. But Jeff and I both know this isn't just a race. It's about more than that. A flourishing commercial space industry. And for that to happen, we need as many successful test flights from as many companies as possible. I say the more the merrier. So I wish Jeff the very best of luck. But what is it about space travel? I mean, you're a businessman. You must know that the chance of making a profit is slim. I've heard that argument plenty of times before with every venture I've started. People have told me all the reasons why it wouldn't work. Not enough experience, not enough demand, too crowded of market, too narrow of a market. But you know what? It just makes me more determined to prove them wrong. When you look at it like that, space travel is the obvious next step for Virgin. Because we've always been about bucking tradition, beating the odds. The following morning, Richard Branson and three other Virgin Galactic employees boarded the Unity spaceplane at 8:40am Unity took off for its first passenger test flight and ascended to the edge of space before returning safely back to Earth, just as Richard had hoped. His participation drew widespread media attention and shortly afterwards, Virgin Galactic opened ticket sales to the public. Richard was already taking customers into the sky with Virgin Atlantic, but now he planned to take them to the stars. Business Movers is sponsored by shokz. This is a business show and making it is my business, which means I take audio seriously. My microphone is German, my preamplifier is English, My digital converters are high spec. Everything is chosen for quality so that if you were to listen to this podcast on some magnificent vacuum tube stereo through gleaming tower speakers, you'd be able to say that's a good sounding podcast. But no one does that, do they? I don't either. Podcasts are not hi fi listening, even if I make them like they are. Instead, they're really great to listen to while driving, shopping, running, working out. And for that sort of listening, Shokz Open Dots 1 makes a real difference. They're lightweight, clip onto your ear securely and let you hear what's around you while still delivering amazing sound. I like that they're comfortable first and foremost, but to also deliver great sound without having a pair of three way speakers duct taped to your head. Even better, Shokz is a leader in open ear headphones and Open Dots 1 is their latest innovation. Take a look at Shokz.com, s H O K Z and don't forget to use code movers for $10 off, that's S H O K Z.com Stay sharp. Stay open with Shockz. With the Spark CashPlus card from Capital One, you earn unlimited 2% cash back on every purchase and you get big purchasing power so your business can spend more and earn more. Steven, Brandon and Bruno, the business owners of Sandcloud, reinvested their 2% cash back to help build their retail presence. Now that's serious business. What could the SparkCashPlus card from Capital One do for your business? Capital One what's in your wallet? Find out [e-mail] SparkCashPlus terms apply from Wondere. I'm Lindsey Graham and this is Business members. Richard Branson always saw business as an adventure. His high tolerance for risk and ability to think outside the box were crucial reasons for his early success. The youth magazine that Richard launched as a teenager wasn't afraid to push the boundaries. And the popularity of its music pages persuaded him to shift into a different part of the media business. That began a pattern Richard would follow for years as he diversified the Virgin brand. First into mail order music, then into brick and mortar retail, then into music production. But in 1984, Richard took a bigger gamble. He started a business in an entirely new industry unrelated to any of his previous ventures. And and Virgin Atlantic beat all expectations to propel Richard into a new stage of his career, making him the public face of one of Britain's best known international brands. Since then, Virgin Group has gone on to operate more than 400 different businesses across dozens of industries, including hospitality, entertainment, healthcare, communications and banking. And in the year 2000, Richard was knighted by Queen Elizabeth II. And with a fortune that topped $5 billion at its height, he's been one of Britain's richest citizens for more than 30 years. But the launch of Virgin Galactic in 2004 proved that even the sky was no limit to Richard's ambitions. Still, commercial space travel was far more complicated than taking vacationers across the Atlantic. It took 17 years before Virgin Galactic was ready to carry passengers on its spaceplanes. And the company has yet to turn a profit. As of 2025, a two hour Virgin Galactic flight costs an estimated $600,000 per passenger. So Richard's goal of making space travel accessible to the general public is still a long way off. But Virgin Galactic isn't giving up yet. And it wouldn't be the first time Richard Branson has made a seemingly crazy gamble pay off. Here to talk about the early days of the Virgin business empire is marketing consultant Stacy Schwartz, a former executive at Virgin Mobile usa. Stacy Schwartz, thanks for speaking with me today on Business Movers.

[Stacy Schwartz]

Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

[Lindsey Graham]

Now. You joined Virgin Mobile USA in 2005 and stayed there for five years until 2010. But before you were part of the wider family, I was wondering, what were your impressions of the Virgin brand?

[Stacy Schwartz]

Well, I was familiar with the Virgin brand in that it was entrepreneurial and kind of rogue and kind of innovative and renegade, I guess. Um, but I wasn't necessarily expecting that of a wireless company in suburban Warren, New Jersey, which is where I ended up working.

[Lindsey Graham]

So when you arrived then, Virgin Mobile was already about 4 years old. What was it that you discovered that made it distinctly Virgin?

[Stacy Schwartz]

So my initial impression of Virgin Co. Would be that it would be located in a major city and would have a lot of very urban, innovative, entrepreneurial people and a lot of young people. I wasn't expecting the same from a unassuming suburban office park in a brick building at the side of a highway, especially in an industry like telecommunications that has a lot of infrastructure and regulation. And personally, to be honest, I had no interest in selling wireless phones, but I had a lot of curiosity about the Virgin brand. I had come from a background that was entrepreneurial. I worked in digital marketing from the beginning as an industry in the mid-1990s, and I also had worked in healthcare. So I had a great interest in kind of a social mission and making a difference in the world. And those were things I knew that Virgin Mobile stood for. So I was a little skeptical. But when I came out of the elevator, I could have been in downtown Manhattan. You walk out of the elevator and literally you see Virgin. From the second the elevator doors open, the wallpaper was a mural of Richard Branson's face and music and festivals and some phones. And there's a big sign in the lobby that had a tie rack that said, business is fun, but ties are not K N o T to leave your tie there on a hook. The people there were so down to earth. And literally the chief marketing officer, when I sat with him for my interview, he didn't have his shoes on and he was sitting on his office chair, you know, crisscross with his legs up on the chair. And I, of course, was not prepared for that. Having come from a healthcare background and being in suburban New Jersey, I was kind of surprised. And I loved that the people were so like, you know, no bs, that there was no stuffiness, there was no formality. But they were all really smart and they were innovative. And I was also very pleased with their emphasis on philanthropy. At the same time that they were hiring me for a marketing, e commerce and media role, they were also hiring someone for a director of pro social role who was really going to be thinking about the kinds of charitable issues that are important to our customers and also to work within the larger Virgin Group overall.

[Lindsey Graham]

So it sounds like you found in Virgin Mobile USA a culture that really was appealing to you. So this is a different culture. How much does this culture just ride on top of the business? Or how much does the culture inform the business?

[Stacy Schwartz]

So I think the culture is the business. What differentiates Virgin from other companies in an industry is really its approach to the customer. And that approach to the customer starts with our approach to one another at work. We are customer first thinking, so what is frustrating or annoying a customer? And then really challenging the status quo of what's become acceptable in an industry. So Virgin Group tends to go into industries that are quite complicated and may have a few strong industry leaders already operating. And those industry leaders are sort of, you know, establishing what's normal, and customers become used to the complacency of those companies. And so really, the culture encourages us to be simple, to cut through the clutter, to challenge the status quo, to give the brand a personality and make it fun and human, and then bring that joy and humanity back to the customer so that they feel that they're treated appropriately and that we can really be their champion. And we do that with minimizing the bureaucracy inside the company and also by taking risks that help bring some new products, new pricing, you know, new way of thinking to the customer.

[Lindsey Graham]

So in our series, we focus mostly on Richard Branson's early initial business ventures in magazines and music and aviation. But you just mentioned how Virgin often enters industries that are complicated and sometimes crowded. And there have been countless other industries that Virgin has gotten into beyond the ones that we focused on. What do you think has been the biggest success across the Virgin range and why?

[Stacy Schwartz]

Well, of course, to start at the beginning, Virgin Records and Virgin Atlantic were major successes. And that's really because I think Virgin was first to disrupt these major industries that were dominated by those few players that did get complacent and didn't really put their customers first. And I think Virgin Mobile was also a success story, although it doesn't exist today. I think it was a success story of its time because customers did have a limited choice among a few large players who didn't have their best interests in mind. And so really being able to give an alternative and tell the market that there is an alternative, I think makes that a success. And today Virgin's doing that for hotels. So really, like any industry that has this customer frustration and ripe for Disruption, where they're underserved. At Virgin Mobile, we had a philosophy statement that was on the wall right in the lobby, and I'm sure that other Virgin companies have the same thing that basically said we were looking at industries that were glutted with compromise and to really break those industries that were static because of that compromise.

[Lindsey Graham]

Glutted with compromise. So is that, I guess, the ethos, the strategy behind finding other industries to enter in this wide portfolio of businesses?

[Stacy Schwartz]

Yeah, Virgin is really expert at improving the customer experience. And that means kind of by definition, that Virgin Group is not necessarily expert at any individual industry. So when they have the interest and internal knowledge and expertise in getting into an industry, they may get into it 100%, but more likely they'll partner with an operating business already within that industry who has that expertise. And so Virgin can enter an industry with pretty light investment, with a partner who has the heavier investment, potentially in the infrastructure or in the product itself, itself, and put that Virgin wrapper around it and really help change that industry to give them an alternative and a refreshing approach to the market.

[Lindsey Graham]

I'm sure there are obvious risks associated with such an extreme horizontal brand portfolio. What are some of the unexpected ones?

[Stacy Schwartz]

Well, I think if you enter an industry that's not broken, we saw that with Virgin Cola, for example, the brand might not actually add any value if customers don't really feel like they need an alternative or they're frustrated by current alternatives. So potentially the Virgin offering can get lost in the fray. If Virgin doesn't research the customer pain points enough, they might waste brand capital on fighting for the wrong things, which could potentially harm a brand. And I suppose if they entered an industry that they know so little about and don't partner with the right operating partner, they're giving up a lot of control over how the brand lives in the market. And so potentially the brand may fail and potentially the venture might not live up to the ethos of the Virgin brand.

[Lindsey Graham]

I think we're pretty much discussing this question, but I wonder if you may be able to make it more official. What are the core principles that you believe Virgin consistently applied to its businesses?

[Stacy Schwartz]

So customer first thinking is definitely the first and foremost. Being a customer champion and speaking up for people who have a hard time speaking up for themselves because the industries are just too big and gluttonous to hear what their customers are actually saying or the companies have no interest in hearing. The second is challenging the status quo. Don't just keep doing things the same way they've always been done. Virgin puts a simplicity around complicated industries. In the mobile space, you had to do credit checks and sign contracts to get a mobile plan, traditionally. And Virgin turned that on its head and said, why do we need contracts? What are contracts for? Why are we trying to lock you in? Let's just be direct about our pricing and clear about what we offer. Virgin also brings a brand personality, and I think that's more common today. Remember, this is, you know, well before social media. When I was at Virgin Mobile, social media was just starting to become a thing that we were venturing into freshly. Now we're used to hearing, you know, fast food companies sound like humans with personalities, you know, being snarky with each other and, you know, playing off each other and making jokes. But back then, it was very unusual for companies to sound like regular people. You know, we were very much talking at people. And so I think that's always been the traditional way Virgin has approached the market is to really be human and fun and real, or to at least feel real. And I think behind the scenes, the brand always stood for empowering its employees. So trying to have minimal bureaucracy and taking risks listening to people, giving them the freedom to want to suggest new, crazy things and saying yes to them and trying them out.

[Lindsey Graham]

You mentioned Virgin Cola as an example of a time when the company entered an industry that wasn't broken and perhaps broke one of its own rules here. Were there any other examples?

[Stacy Schwartz]

Virgin Brides is probably another example. I think that's an industry maybe where they didn't understand the customer's needs as much because, you know, do brides really want to be so renegade and innovative and unusual on their wedding days? You know, maybe not. So I think that maybe they didn't understand what the customer actually needed in that product. And also they weren't going against large, faceless conglomerates that were mistreating customers. I think in that case, they were competing against, you know, sometimes small designers who actually unto themselves were kind of innovative and human. So I think that was probably a misstep as well. When you're with Amex Business Platinum, going the extra mile for your business pays off with five times membership rewards points on flights and and prepaid hotels booked. Through amextravel.com, you can earn more points to help grow your business. And with access to more than 1400 lounges globally through the American Express Global Lounge Collection, including the Centurion Lounge.

[Lindsey Graham]

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[Stacy Schwartz]

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[Lindsey Graham]

Learn more@american express.com Amex Business Business movers is sponsored by Upwork. Here is a true story. A few years ago, I needed to scale up my podcast production business. We were getting busy and I to find a sharp, reliable audio editor. So I went to Upwork and quickly found a freelancer who was not only good, but above and beyond good. You'll hear their name in the credits of this episode, even because their work deserves to be called out. So I know with Upwork you can find specialized freelancers in marketing, development, design, podcast editing. Who knows, experts who are ready to help you take your business to the next level. And posting my job on Upwork was easy with no cost. Just register, then browse freelancer profiles, get help drafting a job post, maybe even book a consultation. From there, find, connect and hire freelancers that get you. Upwork makes the entire process easier, simpler and more affordable with industry low fees. So post a job today and hire tomorrow with Upwork. Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's Upwork.com to post your job for free and connect with top talent ready to help your business grow up. W o r k.com Upwork.com well, let's turn back to the large, faceless conglomerates and focus on Virgin Mobile usa. When the network launched, it was entering a crowded market, an established industry. You've already kind of indicated a little bit of what you discovered when you first arrived, but how did Virgin Mobile USA position itself against these more established competitors in the public marketplace?

[Stacy Schwartz]

So in the case of Virgin Mobile usa, I actually think it helped us that we were entering a really crowded market because it allowed us to play the underdog. We would do things that we could do because we were Virgin and we were a small upstart and we were very agile that our competitors just simply couldn't do or maybe wouldn't do. So, you know, they were offering complicated and expensive plans and ours were transparent and simple and fairly priced. And they were focused on the main mass market, right, which was, you know, for people who had established credit and who wanted to have these phones that, you know, were part of their normal daily life, that they would have the same phone number for years and they would, you know, have a relationship with the same phone company their whole life. And we realized that our customers were just a very small sliver of the market that the larger companies didn't really care about. They were younger, they were more cash strapped, they were just starting out in their careers, in their lives. And so we weren't really looking to be an industry leader. We wanted to just capture a few good percentages of market share. And that kind of gave us the freedom and permission that we could be more fun, more outrageous, more risk taking on that same philosophy that we had hanging on our wall that talked about how our competition was glutted with compromise, also mentioned that we wanted our competitors to find us really completely irritating, because the more our competitors felt found us annoying, the more we knew that we were being more authentic and relevant to the people who we actually cared about. And our competitors really did not.

[Lindsey Graham]

So you've characterized Virgin Mobile USA as a success, but the network did close down in 2020. Why?

[Stacy Schwartz]

So from the beginning, Virgin Group partnered with Sprint as a joint venture on the Virgin Mobile USA business. And then in 2009, Virgin sold their share of the business to Sprint. So basically, Virgin Mobile USA became a wholly owned subsidiary of Sprint and comprised one of the brands in its prepaid business. And that's when that gradual decline started. Sprint continued, however, to pay brand licensing fees, so royalties to the Virgin brand and kept it going as Virgin Mobile USA and Sprint tried to keep the brand cool and edgy, tried to utilize the Virgin ethos that was built up over those years. And I think that they did make a strong effort. But the market was changing. The prepaid phone market got really crowded. You know, Sprint had its own brand and there were others among, you know, the large big phone companies started realizing there was some money to be had and prepaid. So there became a bunch of prepaid brands competing with each other. And Also starting around 2010, 2011, 2012, the iPhone came. And I think that as the iPhone and smartphones became ubiquitous, prepaid plans were sort of floundering overall because customers wanted smartphones, but they were also cash strapped and couldn't necessarily afford to pay for one outright without having a contract where contracts might have given them a free phone. So I think prepaid just sort of floundered as a sector of the industry. And I think the Virgin brand differentiation just got lost in all of the noise and it got lumped into a really crowded subcategory that was sort of floundering. So Sprint decided to sunset the brand in 2020.

[Lindsey Graham]

You just mentioned keeping the Virgin brand fresh and young. How important was marketing to the success of Virgin?

[Stacy Schwartz]

Do you think marketing is everything to Virgin? First of all, I mentioned a moment ago, royalties from brand licensing deals. I have heard that today half of Virgin Group's revenue is coming from royalty deals. And that's really a testament to how important the brand is and how many operating companies actually want to continue using the Virgin brand. So the brand is everything to the group's success, particular to an individual business or product. The marketing wrapper, sort of that Virgin is, that comes with Virgin extends way beyond the commercials or funny ads or stunts that you might see. As I'm a marketing professor, I like to, you know, go back to the basics with the four Ps of marketing. But the Virgin brand changes all four Ps, you know, it affects how the product shows up to its customers. So the product is going to be a simpler product that a customer can use in a more fun, innovative way, whether that's mobile, airlines, hotels. It's going to be a different looking and feeling and experienced product. The pricing is always going to be fair and transparent. It's going to try to avoid hidden fees and, you know, bundled prices and you don't know what things are for and you get a phone bill and there's a thousand different elements to it that you don't know what they mean. Taking that out of the pricing conversation, the place, you know, we're going to distribute our products in a way that's innovative and fun. Music, because it's the origin and the DNA of the Virgin brand, it permeates to all of the companies. So just like Virgin's original record store was a fun place to hang out and discover new music, not just buy a record. We would, with Virgin Mobile, run music festivals and made music very much a part of how you experience and where you might find our phones. And then of course, there's the promotion, which is like the commercials and the funny stunts and the ads and the PR and all the things that create the buzz that helps us communicate what the Virgin brand is all about.

[Lindsey Graham]

Let's talk about that 4th P promotion. Can you think of a Virgin marketing campaign that you thought was especially bold or innovative?

[Stacy Schwartz]

Yeah. So I think almost all of the Virgin launches of a new brand is always a bold. When I hear the word bold, I automatically think back to Richard Branson transcending into Times Square, standing on top of an inflatable Virgin mobile phone, wearing a naked bodysuit, coming down into Times Square to announce the launch of Virgin Mobile. And I think he did similar with the launch of Virgin brides wearing a wedding dress. But really that kind of bold announcement that, like I am here, I think is always very Virgin and creates a lot of buzz and a lot of press and a lot of excitement around a new brand. But in terms of an ongoing kind of promotion, two things come to mind for me from Virgin Mobile. One was trying to capture with youth, trying to capture cultural moments that are really relevant to our audience, but instead of, like, using it for our own gain, using it to turn it into something that's very relevant to them, but still utterly ridiculous. So Chrismahana Kwanzaka was a new holiday that we declared to be every year on December 13, which was designated to, you know, be an inclusive way to celebrate the December holidays. And, you know, it's inclusive. It featured, you know, literally a Christian, a Muslim, a Jew, a Hindu, a Kwanzaa guy, quote unquote, a Buddhist cowboy, a gay elf, a caveman. It was a ridiculous ad, and it was very bluntly selling phones in a funny way. But it kind of was an important moment because it said, hey, you're all included. But it also said, isn't it funny how inclusive we've become? And, you know, ridiculous all of this is? And so it kind of was a moment for everyone to laugh and enjoy and also to sort of be sarcastic and satire. But not everything we did was just irreverent and cheeky. I think that one of the things I'm proud about, really working at Virgin Mobile was the fact that we had this social element, this need to be philanthropic and acknowledging the pain that happens and the challenges that can happen in our customers lives as well. So back in 2009, I think we sponsored Lady Gaga's Monster Ball tour, and one of our phones even made it a cameo into her telephone music video. And, you know, nowadays I think that kind of brand integration is pretty typical, and Lady Gaga for sure is a superstar today. But at the time, this was a pretty controversial move because Lady Gaga was very outspoken about LGBTQ rights and she wore outrageous outfits and she was very rebellious and she pushed a lot of boundaries and her music was very sexual. And there's a lot of reasons why a traditional brand might have wanted to keep their distance from her. But we said, well, let's not take this sponsorship despite those things. Let's like, lean into those things. So we not only, you know, wanted our phone to have visibility on her tour and in her music videos, but we teamed up with her based on the alignment with her issue, which is LGBTQ rights and teens that were runaway or homeless because of their LGBTQ status. And so we actually decided to partner with homeless youth and LGBTQ organizations. We offered free concert tickets to volunteers who would donate at least eight hours of their time to help youth that were living in shelters or being benefited from those organizations. And so that was a real integration that at its surface level seemed very sort of Virgin. It seemed very funny and fun and outrageous, but actually it was much deeper and more real and human than that, which is something that I really loved about being at Virgin. When you're with amex Business Platinum, you have the card that helps businesses dream bigger, get a flexible skill spending limit that adapts with your business, and earn 1.5 times Membership Rewards points on select business purchases so you can stock up.

[Lindsey Graham]

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[Stacy Schwartz]

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[Stacy Schwartz]

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[Lindsey Graham]

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[Stacy Schwartz]

I mean, he is so well known because of those stunts. In part, he puts himself right there front and center. And he's also, aside from the stunts, he's very public with his Story that he was a regular kid who struggled in school and he had the guts and curiosity to make his dreams come true. He dropped out of school and pursued his own venture. And, you know, by all measures, professionally, financially, you know, personally, his adventures, he is, you know, a success. But what I also love is that he doesn't seem to take his success for granted. So even at this age, he comes across as a person who's sort of in awe of his good fortune. He wants to share that fun with other people, he wants to share his sense of adventure with other people, and he wants to share his good fortune with people who can't necessarily fight for themselves, whether that's customers of his businesses, but also sharks who were being hunted for their fins, or, in the case of the Virgin Mobile story, homeless youth that don't have the means to protect themselves. So I think that the caring about other people and the very public way he speaks about his life have all combined to really make him so well known.

[Lindsey Graham]

Is there a way to separate the Richard Branson brand from the Virgin brand? Perhaps more cynically, what happens to Virgin when there is no Richard Branson?

[Stacy Schwartz]

Yeah, I mean, it's a really excellent question. I'm not privy to, of course, the conversations that have been happening at Virgin over the last 15 years or so, but just based on my experience, I believe that the investment that the Virgin Group has made to the Virgin brand across these decades has sort of always been preparing for a future after Richard Branson, because so much of the Virgin brand is what Richard has infused into it already. And the Virgin brand itself, not just Richard Branson, actually stands for all of these same values that he stands for. And I also think that in an age where social media and mobile are so pervasive, I think that customers have an opportunity to interact with brands as human, sort of as people, authentically, more than ever. So in the earlier days, Richard Branson was appearing for Virgin in these very public spectacle ways that generated this buzz. But I think it's possible today to continue those kind of values and conversations with the brand and touch points where you feel like you get a visibility into the brand on social media without having to have the public spectacles that sort of hang on the back of one crazy person that's really fun to watch.

[Lindsey Graham]

Well, speaking of crazy people that are fun to watch, presumably you've interacted with Richard. What was his leadership style?

[Stacy Schwartz]

So Richard wasn't directly involved in our day to day, but his leadership philosophy was definitely felt. He believed in trusting people, leading with optimism and an open mind. He would listen to ideas, gave each operating business permission to take creative risks. He very rarely said no. As you could tell by the time Slide Square example, he very often didn't say no to crazy ideas that he would encourage all of our operating businesses to have. And I think giving that sense of freedom helps people work harder and want to stretch themselves and come up with the ideas that make sense and resonate. One of the really wonderful things that Virgin Group encouraged is that we would come to New York very often and meet with other USA Virgin companies. And we would also go to London occasionally and kind of touch the mothership and interact with marketing groups across other Virgin Mobile companies around the world and also other Virgin companies around the world. And I think that really helped kind of solidify the, you know, company philosophies that hang on our wall really come to life when you get to hear how other businesses are approaching it and really share ide across and really bring the Virgin kind of ethos to every company on the ground.

[Lindsey Graham]

As you've mentioned and we explored in this series, Richard dropped out. He overcame dyslexia and dyscalculia to become a billionaire. I'm wondering if there are any traits associated with these learning difficulties in particular that you think may have helped him during his business career.

[Stacy Schwartz]

Yeah, beyond how he describes how he reflects on how it helped him, I think looking from the outside, that it likely forced him to simplify. That's definitely how our businesses have been approached, is to really translate being simple into a strength and giving that some clarity around the brand vision, you know, to really bring things down to a very simple level and not over complicate things. I also think it probably forced him to rely on his instincts and his gut, which he definitely does. In all of the different businesses that Virgin's in. It probably fostered creativity and so much. It's interesting to me that so much of what Virgin stands for relates to music and visuals and experiences. You know, the feeling of being at a concert and, you know, the murals and the music, like all of that to me connects to a very creative thinking that comes from a mind that sees things a little bit differently or a little bit more clearly perhaps than the rest of us. And I think it also allows him to appreciate collaboration, that he doesn't feel like he has to be the smartest person in the room, that he surrounds himself with people who know different things than he does and is open minded to their feedback.

[Lindsey Graham]

So you joined Virgin Mobile USA just one year after the founding of Virgin Galactic, a very different industry. What do you think inspired Richard to move into space travel?

[Stacy Schwartz]

Yeah, so it was a really cool thing to know that we had a division of our portfolio of our larger Virgin Group family that was going to space. And I think it's a natural extension of his desire to push limits and to break boundaries and to do it in a really fun way. And we all know that Richard Branson is very fond of adventure. And it seems to be such a literally beyond comprehension kind of business to want to go into. But in another way, I feel like it falls in line with his other businesses because it is a chance to democratize something that is previously out of reach. It was reserved for governments, and it's pretty complicated. And I'm sure it's still complicated the way Virgin Galactic has to approach it. But it also makes it more simple and accessible for the average person to comprehend. So from that perspective, I think it's inspiring.

[Lindsey Graham]

The average person may be able to comprehend Virgin Galactic, but at ticket prices, what they are, they probably can't participate, really. Will Virgin Galactic ever turn a profit?

[Stacy Schwartz]

I'm not sure. And certainly the costs are so high and the commercial market for space travel is very much still in its infancy, if you even think of. It's not even been born yet, probably, but I'm not sure that's the point. I think the point of this one for now is that he's pioneering a category. And I think it's relevant to the Virgin brand that it's a pioneer in categories that seem to be, you know, unsurmountable. So I think that it's a really interesting either moonshot, literally, or a really expensive hobby. That's a feather in the cap of the portfolio of the Virgin brands.

[Lindsey Graham]

What do you think Richard's legacy will be after he finally does pass?

[Stacy Schwartz]

So I've thought about this a lot because he's such a presence. And I mentioned when I stepped off the elevator into Virgin Mobile USA for the first time, that I saw the muraled wallpaper that had his face interspersed with images of concerts and phones. And so his presence, although he wasn't in the office every day, was very much in the room. So I think that what he's really done is teach us that you can build a brand without selling your soul. You know, he very much stayed human and that caring about other people, that entrepreneurship can be exciting and joyful and driven by values and not just for money, although, you know, having a lot of money is also very nice and allows you to do lots of adventurous things, but you can protect those other people. You don't have to only stand for your shareholders or for your investors. You can also stand for the people or things that can't do that for themselves. And I also think that you can succeed and then some. You know, you can wildly succeed while still being who you are, while still being yourself.

[Lindsey Graham]

This is, of course, a business show. So what business lessons do you think our listeners can learn from Richard Branson and Virgin, even if they don't have aspirations to go to space?

[Stacy Schwartz]

I think starting with empathy, knowing your customer, not just thinking you know your customer, but actually talking to your customers, listening to your customers, hear their pain points, understand what they have to say so that you know what you're addressing in the market. Simplify everything. Don't just rationalize the way business has always been done because it's always been done this way. In marketing, we call that marketing myopia. But really, not just making excuses for an industry because you've been in it too long, but actually looking at it a different way and making it as simple as possible. I think the culture is important. And too many CEOs today think about culture as a perk or something that they just write down on a sign and put on the wall, and that's about it. But it actually needs to show up. It needs to permeate everything. It really needs to be part of the DNA of the company. And the way that you make decisions, it needs to be considered in the way that you make decisions. I also think being bold, so don't be afraid to make some waves. You want to be out there and be heard. You have to cut through the clutter. And sometimes that requires courage. But save your courage for what matters. You know, if you're bold all the time for the sake of being bold, without the product or the promise or the pricing or anything else behind it, then it's just noise. And then finally, business can be a source for good. It can be good for yourself and make you happy. It can be good for your employees and make them love where they work. And it also can be really good for society at the same time.

[Lindsey Graham]

Stacey Schwartz, thank you so much for talking to me today on Business Movers.

[Stacy Schwartz]

Thank you so much. It's great to be here.

[Lindsey Graham]

From Wondery. This is the final episode of our series on Richard Branson and the birth of Virgin. On the next season of Business Movers, the ambitions of car designer Ferdinand Porsche thrust his company into the arms of Adolf Hitler Hitler and his Nazi regime. But in the aftermath of World War II, it's left to Ferdinand's son to reinvent Porsche as a high performance sports car manufacturer and under his guidance, Porsche speeds to success. If you like Business Movers, you can unlock exclusive episodes found nowhere else on Wondery and access new episodes early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. And before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a [e-mail] survey if you'd like to learn more about the early days of Virgin, we recommend Losing My Virginity and Finding My Virginity, both by Richard Branson and Virgin Inside Richard Branson's Business Empire A quick note about our drama in most cases, we can't know everything that happened, but all our reenactments are based on historical historical research. Business Movers is hosted, edited and executive produced by me, Lindsey Graham for Airship Audio editing by Mohammed Shazi Sound designed by Molly Bach. Our supervising Sound designer is Matthew Filler. Music by Thrum. This episode is written and researched by Emma Dibdin, Coordinating producer Jake Sampson senior producer Scott Reeves. Executive producers are William Simpson for Airship and Erin o' Flaherty, Jenny Lauer Beckman and Marshall Louie for Wondering.

[Stacy Schwartz]

Every successful.

[Lindsey Graham]

Business starts with an idea, and on the best Idea yet, we're obsessed with those light bulb moments. Like how a bored barista invented the Frappuccino during his downtime and then it got acquired by Starbucks. Or how Patagonia's iconic fleece was inspired by a toilet seat cover. On the Best Idea yet, we dive into the untold origin stories behind the the products you're obsessed with and the bold risk takers who made them go viral. These are the wild ideas and insights that made Birkenstock the best selling sandals since Jesus and made Super Mario the most played video game in the history of attention span. Yeah, Nintendo almost became a ramen company until Super Mario saved it. New episodes drop every Tuesday. Follow the Best Idea yet on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. And if this podcast lasts longer than.

[Stacy Schwartz]

45 minutes, call your doctor.