Lindsey Graham (3:43)

In his speech launching cnn, Ted Turner might have suggested that its reporting would bring harmony to the world, but the new channel's president and CEO, Reese Schoenfeld, had more modest ambitions. All Reese wanted was for enough Americans to tune in to make CNN a success, and even that would prove to be the toughest job of his entire Business Movers is sponsored by Attentive. Imagine for a moment if you got a message from your favorite brand and it's so specific and personalized it feels like it was created just for you. Well, chances are if you got such a message, they're using Attentive, the SMS and email marketing platform designed to help brands build and connect with their ideal audience. Attentive helps marketers create unique messages for every subscriber, transforming the consumer shopping experience and maximizing marketing performance. It works like this. Attentive's AI learns what subscribers actually want based on their real time interactions with your brand. 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Go to ShipStation.com and use code movers to sign up for your free trial. That's shipstation.com code movers. Look, it's 4:46 shipstation.com code movers from Wondery. I'm Lindsey Graham and this is Business Movers. In the weeks leading up to the launch of the first ever 24 hour news channel, its creator Ted Turner had told reporters that CNN would continue broadcasting until the end of the world. To prove that he meant it, Ted even chose what would air during the last moments of mankind and recorded a military band playing Nearer My God to Thee to sign the world off into oblivion. But although Ted was the first face on CNN and chose the last segment the network would ever air, he didn't play much of a role in the day to day workings of the channel. That responsibility fell to Reese Schoenfield. Reese was the experienced television news executive who'd spent the last year getting CNN off the ground. With a tight budget, he'd had to take risks. He employed young and inexperienced reporters, producers and crew. And he'd built studios that relied on new technology and new way to take on America's established big three networks. Abc, CBS and NBC. But Reese didn't want to simply replicate their half hour news programs and stretch them out over an entire day. He wanted to reinvent television news entirely. He wanted his reporters to go where the stories were. He wanted to jump from live report to live report and never stand still. But Reese would soon discover that having an idea was the easy part. Putting it into practice would be much more difficult. This is the second episode in our four part series on the birth of CNN. The news will continue. It's the afternoon of June 1st, 1980 at CNN headquarters in Atlanta, Georgia. Shortly after the channel went live. Inside the control booth, CNN executive Ted Kavanaugh surveys the live feeds on the monitors in front of him. Ted Turner's introductory speech is over and coverage has switched to the channel's first real news show. Presented by husband and wife duo Dave Walker and Lois Hart. Kavanaugh glances up as CNN chief executive Reese Schoenfeld hurries in from the party outside. Hey Rhys, you bring me champagne? Nope. Just checking in. How we doing? What'd you think about Ted's speech? Well, it was typical Ted. I thought we were running a news channel, not saving the world. Yeah, well, believe me, it could have been worse. When Ted Turner gets a hold of a microphone, anything can happen. But now it's Our turn. Kavanaugh leans forward and barks a direction to his crew. Hey, tight on Lois, right? Get ready with the feed from Fort Wayne. This is gonna work, right, Reese? I hope so. CNN's first top story is President Jimmy Carter's trip to Indianapolis to visit the wounded civil rights activist Vernon Jordan. But CNN doesn't have a crew on the ground at the hospital. They're going to be reliant on footage shared by NBC. And even now, Reese isn't certain their rival will cooperate. Kavanaugh and Reese nervously watch the monitor, waiting for the feed from Indiana. Suddenly, it flickers to life, showing the door of the hospital ward where Vernon's being treated. Ah, there it is. Okay, folks, we're gonna run with this story. Reese and Cavanaugh look at each other with relief. Their main story is saved. But after a few seconds of staring at the feed from Indiana, Kavanaugh realizes that nothing is happening. The hospital door isn't opening, and there's no sign of the President. Oh, God. Is anything actually going to happen down there? This is dull. We can't show people this. Kavanaugh thinks for a moment, staring at the unmoving hospital door. Okay, we're going to go to a break. Dave teased a Super Tuesday segment. Cue the first commercials. As the news channel cuts to an ad break, Kavanaugh shakes his head in frustration. But Reese keeps his eye on the live feed from Indiana, where suddenly the door opens and President Carter steps out, grinning to the cameras. Reese grabs Kavanaugh's attention. It's Carter. Go to it. Cut to it now. In the middle of a commercial. In the middle of a commercial. I'll be damned if we miss our debut story for an ad. Kavanaugh turns to the junior producer next to him. Kill the commercial. Cut to the president. Broadcast cuts to a startled looking anchor ad libbing as he returns to to air and quickly introduces the president. Reese steps behind Kavanaugh and enthusiastically claps his colleague on the shoulders. All right. It's perfect. Perfect. It's chaos. It's news. Would any other channel cut from an ad break like that? No, they wouldn't. Precisely. That's why I did it. While Reese Schonfield was overseeing CNN's first news reports, Ted Turner had retreated from the launch party to his private rooms at the top of the building to watch television. But he wasn't watching cnn. Instead, Ted had tuned in to watch his beloved baseball team, the Atlanta Braves. When it came to running cnn, it seemed that Ted had already taken his eye off the ball. As he told people at the time his new channel was now Reece's thing, and its success or failure would be down to him alone. Before CNN's launch, Rhys Schoenfeld had repeatedly complained to his wife about stomach and back pains. But it was only after CNN was up and running that Reese finally allowed himself the time to get checked out by a doctor. The diagnosis was that Reese had a hernia and needed to be operated on immediately. So for the first time since CNN's inception, the channel would have to cope without him. But while Reese was recuperating in the hospital, word reached him about Ted Turner's description of the station as Reese's thing. And it made him uneasy. Reese knew that Ted was never one for false modesty. He thought Ted's attempt to distance himself from CNN was a sign that Ted was already losing interest in the station while Reese remained totally committed. He didn't want to launch the new channel and then look for a better paying job on the back of it. Reese wanted to see CNN fulfill its potential and redefine how news was broadcast on television. So after he'd recovered from his operation, Reece returned to work with a renewed determination to transform television news. But during Reese's absence, CNN had begun to develop a reputation. Rather than being praised for its innovative approach, CNN was becoming better known for embarrassing gaffes. The blunders had begun as early as the channel's first day. Pre recorded footage was aired backwards. A cleaner was seen walking through the back of a shot, and a reporter was caught picking his nose live on air. And over the weeks that followed, things only got worse. Reporters floundered as they waited for live feeds that were delayed or even hooked up to the wrong location. And staff at rivals ABC, CBS and NBC took great pleasure in pointing out CNN's early struggles. CNN reporters were mocked by their counterparts, and a new nickname for the channel quickly caught on. Chicken Noodle News. But Reese Schoenfield didn't care what the competitor he was more concerned about his audience. And it seemed the frequent mishaps were having an effect there, too. Within weeks of the channel's launch, less than a million viewers were tuning into CNN every day, half the number that Ted Turner had once promised advertisers. What CNN needed was a big exclusive. And thankfully, it was a presidential election year. Reese hoped he wouldn't have to wait too long for the right story. But that July, when the Republican National Convention came to Detroit, he, CNN's lead reporter on the ground, immediately hit a problem when Mary Alice Williams tried to Collect her media accreditation that would allow her onto the convention floor. She was told she didn't have clearance. The convention organizers had decided that CNN wasn't a big enough player to be granted the same access as abc, CBS and NBC. Mary wasn't prepared to accept that. She demanded full accreditation and floor access, arguing that CNN's 24 hour schedule would give the Republicans far more airtime than traditional broadcasters. But that argument fell on deaf ears. So taking a leaf out of Ted Turner's book, Mary threatened the organizers with legal action. She claimed that blocking CNN's access infringed constitutional rights to free speech and that her bosses would be happy to prove it in court. Unwilling to risk a costly legal action, the Republicans backed down and CNN was granted full access on the same same terms as the Big three. But in the end, the convention organizers were right. CNN was not the equal of abc, CBS, or NBC. These established networks always ramped up their news coverage during election years, spending millions of dollars on extra staff, equipment and studio space. CNN simply didn't have the resources to match that. They were already losing $2.2 million every month, and there would be no extra funding for the channel in election year. CNN reporters would have to handle the Republican National Convention like any other news story. CNN's broadcast team was one fifth the size of the traditional networks. It had a single trailer which had limited communications with the convention center and the CNN studio. Inside the convention center was a small box with no windows. But no one at CNN had more experience in stretching tight budgets than Rhys Schoenfeld. When he arrived in Detroit to supervise CNN's coverage of the convention, he was fast on his feet. To solve their communications problem, Rhys stationed his teenage son on the roof of the convention center with a two way radio. For several days, whenever the convention was in session, Reese's son relayed messages from the trailer to the arena and back again. But there was no bridging the gap between CNN's resources and those of the big three. Reese decided there's no point in even trying. The other networks could stay in their palatial studios interviewing experts and discussing what happened on the convention floor. While Reese would try something different. He would send his team out to hunt down the news in person. There was one big story everyone wanted. Former governor of California Ronald Reagan was already assured of the presidential nomination. But who would join him on the Republican ticket as vice president was still a mystery. Former CIA director George H.W. bush was Reagan's closest rival in the primaries and was widely rumored to be chosen but some thought that Reagan might turn to a more high profile running mate like the former president, Gerald Ford. So rather than sit around and wait for the VP announcement, Reese sent Mary Alice Williams to dig into the story. The press was kept away from potential vice presidential candidates in the convention hall itself, so Mary chose to camp outside former President Ford's hotel room instead. When he emerged, Mary was ready to pounce. With a camera rolling and a microphone ready, she asked Ford live on air whether he'd accept the nomination and join Reagan on the Republican ticket. This moment should have been a coup for cnn, but he was undone by yet another gaffe. There was no sound. CNN technicians had set up a video line, but they had not known that Mary was planning to ambush Ford with her questions, so they hadn't hooked up an audio feed. Puzzled viewers watched President Ford's lips moving, but they had no idea what he'd been asked for or what he was saying. It was another unforced error, but Rhys Schoenfeld tried to look at the positives. Thanks to Mary's tenacity, CNN had been in the right place at the right time to break the story. And this gave Rhys the confidence that his team was making progress. So the next time, he was sure that his staff would learn from their mistakes and clinch the exclusive. They all wanted to turn CNN's reputation around.

Reese Schoenfeld (17:40)

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Lindsey Graham (18:12)

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Bernie Shaw (18:13)

Lay low? What's going on?

Lindsey Graham (18:15)

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Sandy Kernan (18:17)

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Lindsey Graham (18:52)

It's July 17, 1980, at the Joe Louis arena in Detroit, Michigan, on the final day of the Republican National Convention. High among the seats at the top of the convention center, CNN reporter Bernie Shaw fiddles with his lavalier mic as his producer, Sandy Kernan, starts packing away their equipment. Half an hour ago, the arena was cleared for a security sweep ahead of the final speech of the convention from the Republican presidential nominee, Ronald Reagan. But as the sweep began, Bernie was about to go on air, and he persuaded the guards to let him and Sandy stay to finish their report. Now they're packing up, but Bernie's having second thoughts about leaving. You know, I think we should stay here, Sandy. It'll save us having to lug the equipment down the stairs and back again. You heard the man. Finish up and head out. Yeah, but they'll be letting people back in soon. If we just lay low. No, no one's gonna notice. Sandy peers down at the brightly lit stage. If security catches us, they're not going to be happy. I mean, Reese told us to find the story, not be the story. Bernie cracks a smile. This just in. CNN reporters battle security at Convention Center. Quit it. Oh, hey, is that Reagan? Down below, Ronald Reagan has just emerged onto stage alongside an aide. Bernie looks at Sandy. Are we still connected? Sandy speaks into her radio. Hey, Atlanta, can you hear us? Sandy listens to her earpiece for a moment, then gives a thumbs up. Yeah, we're patched in. All right. Well, we might have something here for you guys. It looks like Reagan's dress rehearsal. Far down below on the convention stage, Reagan begins reading his speech, occasionally pausing to discuss parts of it with his aide, repeating certain phrases or altering his gestures. Sandy listens to her earpiece. Hey, they want to come live to us. You ready? Bernie moves in front of the camera. Yeah, just give me the cue. Okay? They're coming to you in three, two. Sandy gives a silent signal. And they're on the air. We're live at the Republican National Convention in Detroit, where Ronald Reagan is rehearsing for his big speech tonight. Sandy swings the camera and focuses in on Reagan. Bernie continues to narrate. A professional actor for years, Reagan is clearly at home on the stage, but this is a side of him we usually never get to see. A glimpse behind the scenes of a politician in action. But then suddenly, Reagan's aide looks up and spots the red light on the camera high above stage. The aide rushes Reagan off the stage and signals for security. Bernie quickly signs off and then turns to Sandy, who's already packing away the equipment. Well, Sandy, if that's not a scoop, I don't know what is. The Republican National Convention was a highly orchestrated event, but Bernie Shaw's report gave Americans a unique inside perspective on Ronald Reagan's presidential campaign. And when CNN chief Reese Schonfield saw the footage, he was delighted. He wanted more moments like that because he knew that for CNN to be a success, it wouldn't just have to cover the news, it would have to cover the news differently. At the end of the Republican national convention in July 1980, George H.W. bush was confirmed as Ronald Reagan's running mate. CNN had missed that scoop, but its chief executive, Reese Schonfield, still believed that his new channel's breakthrough story was just around the corner. It was an election year, after all, and the race for the White House always presented opportunities for smart reporters to make a splash. And by late October, the campaign was in its final stretch, with Ronald Reagan and incumbent President Jimmy Carter set to face off in a live, nationally televised debate. The big three networks would carry it, as would the public television network PBS and, of course, CNN. 80 million viewers were expected to tune in, and Rhys Schoenfeld wanted to claim as large a share of that audience as possible. But Rhys knew that the other network had much more experience with presidential debates, and they had better known anchors to lead their coverage. So if Riis wanted to persuade viewers to tune into CNN instead, he would need to offer them something different. And Reese had an idea. In 1980, American voters were not just choosing between Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter. There was also a third party candidate, former Congressman John Anderson. He had dropped out of the Republican primaries in favor of launching an independent run for the White House. He hoped that his platform would attract disillusioned Democrats and more liberal Republicans. But he was unable to find the support needed to get him a spot in October's debate. This was a setback for Anderson's campaign, but Reese saw it as an opportunity. He reached out to Anderson, offering to use the power of television to virtually insert him into the conversation. CNN planned to broadcast Reagan and Carter's comments on delay, allowing the channel to insert Anderson's answers into the footage as though he were at the debate in person. It was an innovative idea, but it was also a complex logistical challenge for a team that was still finding its feet. And on debate night, the broadcast soon descended into chaos. The tapes of Reagan and Carter were played in the wrong order. The phone line set up to take live questions from CNN viewers didn't work, and static interference was audible throughout the entire transmission. Reese's attempt to grab the audience's attention had resulted in another embarrassing fiasco. Reese was left very frustrated. He could sense the opportunity to establish CNN as a major new force in television was Slipping from his fingers. Just three weeks after the debate, Americans went to the polls and elected Ronald Reagan as their new president. This meant the biggest news cycle in the country was over for another four years. And CNN had failed to take advantage. They hadn't even established themselves as a capable broadcaster. CNN's coverage of the presidential election had only enhanced its reputation for gaffes. But less than a month after the election, a tragedy gave CNN a shot at redemption. On the morning of November 21, 1980, a fire broke out at the MGM Grand, a 2,000 room hotel, hotel and casino on the Las Vegas strip. It quickly spread out of control, threatening the lives of hundreds of people trapped inside the building. As soon as word got out that there was a tragedy unfurling in Nevada, the news desks at the big three networks immediately sent reporters to cover the story. But they wouldn't begin broadcasting any news about the fire until their usual evening programs almost 12 hours later. That left the way clear for CNN. As a 24 hour news channel, its coverage of the fire could begin immediately. So as soon as he heard what was happening, Rhys Schoenfield got on the phone and secured a feed from a local Las Vegas television station. Soon, CNN viewers across the country were able to watch live footage of the burning hotel as helicopters tried to rescue desperate guests trapped in their rooms by the flames. Reese's reporters and anchors commented on the pictures in real time time. But as the scale of the tragedy became clear, Reese put his top reporter, Mary Alice Williams, on the first flight out to Las Vegas. As soon as she landed, Mary raced to the scene and began interviewing eyewitnesses. She wasn't the only reporter on the ground. By now, the big three networks had their people in Las Vegas too. But that wasn't a threat to Mary. It was an opportunity. Rival network NBC had flown in a fire safety expert. Expert. They were going to interview him about the causes of the blaze. But Mary knew that their conversation wouldn't be broadcast until the evening news. So just after NBC's reporter had concluded his interview, Mary approached the expert and asked him more questions. With these responses carried live on CNN back in Atlanta, Reese Schoenfield was delighted because by the time NBC broadcast their interview with the fire safety expert. Expert. It was old news. Thanks to the live reports and dramatic footage straight from Las Vegas, the MGM grand fire brought CNN some of its highest ratings yet. A surge in new subscribers to the channel followed. And finally, Reese had landed a story that proved his concept worked. Now he just had to do it again. And he got his chance soon enough. Two weeks after the fire in Las Vegas, another another huge story broke, this time in New York city. Late on December 8, 1980, former Beatle John Lennon was shot outside his home in Manhattan. Star reporter Mary Alice Williams was based in New York, and she was on the scene within minutes, along with a CNN News truck that beamed her reports live across America. As word of the shooting spread, distraught Beatles fans began gathering on the street outside John Lennon's home. The atmosphere was emotional, with some fans blaming the media for the shooting, claiming that its allegedly hostile treatment of Lennon had poisoned public opinion against him. A few of these fans took out their frustration on the CNN News truck, rocking it on its wheels and nearly tipping it over. Seeing this, Mary Alice Williams pushed her way through the crowd and climbed onto the roof of the truck. She pleaded with the fans, telling them that the scene CNN team was just trying to let the world know what had really happened to their hero. Mary's words calmed the crowd and allowed her to get on with her work. Throughout the night, she gave regular updates on the story, eventually breaking the news that Lennon had been pronounced dead in a nearby hospital. Although it was late in New York, it was still prime time on the west coast, and millions were glued to their television sets to hear the news. Just as had been the case after the MGM grand fire, CNN subscriptions saw an immediate boost in the aftermath of John Lennon's assassination. After early blunders and the missed opportunity of the presidential election, it seemed that CNN was finally hitting its stride and would no longer be known as Chicken Noodle News. Instead, it would strive to be recognized as a major player, a disruptor that could break big stories hours ahead of its rivals. But now that 24 hour news had proven its worth, it began attracting a different kind of attention. And rivals that had confidently predicted CNN's failure began plotting to copy its success.

Bernie Shaw (29:13)

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Ted Kavanaugh (30:07)

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Bernie Shaw (30:10)

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Lindsey Graham (30:46)

It's December 10, 1980, at the Omni Coliseum in Atlanta. Atlanta, Georgia, two days after the murder of John Lennon. Rhys Stonefield cheers as the Atlanta Hawks sink a three pointer to extend their lead over the Detroit Pistons. Then he turns and exchanges a high five with the man who invited him here Tonight, his boss, CNN's owner, Ted Turner. Ted also owns the Hawks, and there's no one in the arena more caught up in the action than he is. But as the buzzer sounds to end the quarter, Ted turns to Reese and fixes him with a look that Reece has come to know well over the past 18 months. It's time to talk business. Ted leans in close. Hey, great job on the Lennon coverage. That was real news. Well, thanks. Mary was fantastic. And. And we're already seeing a bump in subscriber numbers too. Nobody wants to miss out on the next big Story. Nope. No one likes missing out. And actually I've been hearing some rumors about our competition. They don't want to miss out either. Yeah, I think I've been hearing the same rumors. The big three have seen what we've done with CNN and now they want their own piece of 24 hour news. Well, we expected this though, didn't we? Six months ago they were laughing at us. Now they want to get in on the action. Ted shakes his head. They don't have an original idea between them, but. But you're the newsman, Reese. You know these guys. How do you think they're gonna play it? Well, safe, probably. Just short form recaps, I imagine. Like the evening news on a loop. Nothing like we're doing at cnn. Ted strokes his mustache. But it'll appeal to busy viewers, though. Short attention spans, you know. Maybe, but we'll still be offering a vastly superior product. Yeah, but like in basketball, you know, the best players don't always win. Sometimes it's the team with the smartest game plan. CNN might be doing the best job possible. The New Channel with the right strategy could still kill us. Reese can almost see the cogs turning in Ted's head as he ponders his problem. You know, the way I'm thinking about this, there's only one way I could guarantee a win for my team tonight, and that's if I own the Pistons as well as the Hawks. Are we talking television news? What do you mean? We can't stop the competition. It's inevitable. But what if we became the competition? What if we. What if we created a second cnn? One that gives viewers all the news they need as quickly as we can. Wait. We just launched the world's first 24 hour news channel five months ago. We finally got it working. You want another one? Have more faith in yourself, Reese. Ted smacks a hand on Reece's shoulder. You've done it before. I know you can do it again. Ted Turner was never afraid to think outside the box. He believed his unorthodox idea for a second channel would increase his stranglehold on television news before any rival networks even had a chance to get started. But as with the original cnn, Ted wasn't the man who'd actually have to do the work in creating the new channel. For the second time in two years, it was Rhys Schoenfeld who'd be tasked with making Ted's fanciful dreams a real over the past 18 months, Rhys Schoenfeld had drummed a news philosophy into his employees that he called the CNN Way. Under his guidance, CNN reporters had specialized in breaking stories and covering them in detail from fresh and unexpected angles. But now that Reese had to create a second channel, he had to come up with another philosophy. There was no point in replicating CNN's approach. That would only result in the new channel cannibalizing CNN's existing viewers. So instead it needed to find its own audience. Rees decided that the new channel should approach the news in a more easily digestible format. CNN too, would be a headline news channel, covering more topics at a quicker pace and in less detail than the original cnn. But Reese couldn't manage this new operation himself. He just didn't have the time. But he thought the perfect person to do it was already in house. Ted Kavanaugh had begun his career as an old school investigative reporter. He was a fast talker with endless energy, a great choice for a quick paced news channel. So Kavanaugh was set to work and soon created a continuous half hour format he called the Wheel. The idea was that a viewer could tune in at any time of day or night and Hear all the the top stories within 30 minutes. The wheel would begin with a 15 minute summary of the main news headlines, followed by a five minute business and finance report, a five minute sports roundup, and finally a five minute entertainment and lifestyle segment. The format was similar to the traditional evening news programs that aired on the big three networks, but on CNN too. The Wheel would be repeated every 30 minutes with updates to the stories introduced when they were required. But as preparations for the channel's launch got underway In June of 1981, Reese Schonfield heard the news he'd been fearing. One of CNN's main advertisers alerted him that an agency was selling commercial slots on a new 24 hour news channel due to launch the following year. Reese had plenty of contacts elsewhere in the television industry and he immediately began finding out everything he could about this new rival. He soon learned that it was a joint venture between local TV station network, Westinghouse Broadcasting and abc. It would be called the Satellite News Channel, or snc, and it would be made available free to existing cable subscribers. The news of SNC's impending launch lent new urgency to the work on CNN 2. Ted Turner quickly arranged a press conference where he announced that unlike CNN, CNN2 would also be available free to all cable users. Even though this decision lowered revenues, Ted was not prepared to let SNC build an audience unopposed. Nor was he going to Let them beat CNN 2 to air. SNC was scheduled to begin broadcasting in mid June of 1982. So Ted promised that his new channel would be ready six months earlier, January 1, 1982. It was another tight deadline. But with the infrastructure of CNN all already established, launching this second channel was a far simpler task. And CNN 2 transmitted its first broadcast on New Year's Day 1982, just as scheduled. TED Turner had reason to feel satisfied. His brainchild, CNN had carved out a profitable niche in the market as America's best source of breaking news. And now he hoped CNN too would prove another lucrative winning bet. But despite Ted's confidence, all was not well at CNN. In the six months between the launch of CNN2 and rival SNC hitting the airwaves, there would be major changes behind the scenes at the Cable News Network. The relationship between the man who conceived the channel and the man who built it would implode. Reese Schoenfeld would find himself out of a job and CNN would be plunged into crisis. From Wondery. This is episode two of Making the News for Business Movers. On the next episode, as CNN goes from strength to strength, cracks begin to appear in Ted Turner and Rhys Schoenfeld's relationship. If you like business movers, you can unlock exclusive episodes found nowhere else on Wondery and access new episodes early and ad free. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. And before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a survey@wondery.com survey if you'd like to learn more about Ted Turner, Reese Schoenfeld and cnn, we recommend Me and Ted against the World by Reese Schoenfeld, Media man by Ken Auletta and the Inside Story by Hank Whittemore. A quick note about our dramatizations in most cases, we can't know everything that happened, but all our reenactments are based on historical research. Business Movers is hosted, edited and executive produced by me, Lindsey Graham for Airship Audio editing by Mohamed Shazi Sound design by Molly Bach. Our supervising sound designer is Matthew Filler. Music by Thrum. This episode is written and researched by Owen Paul Nichols senior producer Scott Reeves. Executive producers are William Simpson for airship and Aaron O'Flaherty, Jenny Lauer Beckman and Marshall Louie for Wondering.

Bernie Shaw (39:10)

Imagine this.

Mary Alice Williams (39:12)

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