Rehabilitating Porsche | Journalist and author David de Jong explores the legacy of the Nazi era on Porsche | 5

Summary

Business Movers: Rehabilitating Porsche | An In-depth Exploration of Porsche's Nazi-Era Legacy

Episode: Rehabilitating Porsche | Journalist and author David de Jong explores the legacy of the Nazi era on Porsche | 5
Release Date: June 19, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Business Movers, hosted by Lindsey Graham from Wondery, listeners are taken on a historical journey to uncover the complex and troubling legacy of Porsche during the Nazi era. The episode delves into the intertwined histories of key individuals and the infamous automotive company, revealing how Porsche's rise to prominence was marred by collaboration with the Nazi regime.

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Historical Context: Porsche and the Nazi Era

The episode begins by setting the stage in 1948 at the Reuter Metalworks in Stuttgart, West Germany, where Alan Roberts (a pseudonym for Adolf Rosenberger) revisits Porsche after fleeing Nazi Germany in 1935. Initially founded in 1931 with ambitions to create a mass-market car, Porsche's trajectory changed dramatically with the rise of Adolf Hitler.

Formation and Early Challenges

Porsche was established as a design consultancy by Ferdinand Porsche, aiming to innovate within the European automotive industry. However, the partnership between Porsche and Hitler introduced a dark chapter:

Alan Roberts (Adolf Rosenberger): "I want fair restitution." [00:59]

As Hitler seized power, Rosenberger, a Jewish co-founder, was forcibly removed from the company, highlighting the oppressive climate imposed by Nazi policies.

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The Story of Adolph Rosenberger (Alan Roberts)

Alan Roberts, formerly known as Adolph Rosenberger, shares his harrowing experience of being ousted from Porsche due to his Jewish heritage. Despite being a pivotal figure in Porsche's early success, Rosenberger received a meager compensation when he attempted to reclaim his stake post-war.

Alan Roberts: "The worker certainly wouldn't be the only soldier who returned with life-changing injuries." [00:33]
Alan Roberts: "I can get back what the Nazis stole from me." [03:16]

Rosenberger's legal battle against Porsche concluded with a settlement that starkly contrasted the company's exponential growth, underscoring the injustices faced by Jewish business partners during that era.

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Porsche's Use of Forced and Slave Labor during WWII

The episode delves into Porsche's collaboration with the Nazi regime, particularly focusing on the utilization of forced and slave labor in their factories. During World War II, the Reuter Metalworks became a site of immense suffering, where tens of thousands of laborers—including concentration camp prisoners—were subjected to inhumane conditions.

David De Jong: "It was one of the worst-run places in terms of labor conditions." [17:03]

This exploitation was not unique to Porsche; other German conglomerates like BMW, Siemens, and Krupp similarly engaged in forced labor practices, contributing to the war effort at high moral and ethical costs.

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Legacy and Current Implications

Following the war, Porsche underwent significant transformations under Ferry Porsche, Ferdinand's son-in-law. Despite the company's rebirth as a luxury sports car manufacturer, the legacy of its Nazi-era actions casts a long shadow.

In September 2025, Porsche's heirs financed a comprehensive study titled "Driven Out", a 700-page biography of Adolf Rosenberger, aiming to reintegrate his story into the company's historical narrative.

David De Jong: "It will be a major triumph of having Adolf Rosenberger's story, pivotal to one of the world's largest car brands, being rewritten back into history." [23:52]

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Interview with David De Jong

David De Jong, author of "Nazi Billionaires", provides critical insights into Porsche's historical actions and their lasting impact. His extensive research uncovers the moral failings and lack of remorse demonstrated by Porsche's leadership during and after the Nazi era.

Lack of Remorse and Historical Transparency

De Jong emphasizes the absence of genuine acknowledgment from Porsche regarding its past atrocities:

David De Jong: "There was no remorse whatsoever for the crimes that they had participated in." [10:56]

He advocates for radical transparency, urging companies to openly disclose their historical misdeeds to ensure consumers are fully informed.

David De Jong: "Companies should be transparent about both the good and the bad because you only learn something from history by showing the good and the bad." [11:44]

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Consumer Responsibility and Corporate Transparency

The conversation shifts to the role of modern consumers in questioning and holding corporations accountable for their historical actions. De Jong argues that while complete transparency may be challenging, consumers should be mindful of where their money is invested and the histories of the brands they support.

David De Jong: "Consumers should investigate. Be a little bit mindful about where your money ends up." [32:13]

He further discusses the ethical responsibilities of businesses to address their past, suggesting that failure to do so questions their integrity and reliability.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with a reflection on the moral lessons from Porsche's Nazi-era history. De Jong calls for ongoing moral reckoning and historical transparency, emphasizing that understanding and acknowledging the past is crucial for ethical business practices today.

David De Jong: "Keeping humanity and honesty in mind with regards to your business affairs is imperative." [39:06]

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Key Takeaways

1. Porsche's Dark Legacy: Porsche's rise during the Nazi era was built on oppressive practices, including forced and slave labor.
2. Adolph Rosenberger's Struggle: As a Jewish co-founder, Rosenberger's ousting and minimal compensation reflect the broader injustices perpetrated by Nazi policies.
3. Lack of Corporate Remorse: Porsche has historically failed to fully acknowledge or address its past atrocities.
4. Call for Transparency: David De Jong advocates for companies to embrace radical transparency, ensuring consumers are aware of the true histories behind the brands they support.
5. Consumer Vigilance: Modern consumers bear the responsibility of investigating and questioning the ethical histories of the corporations they engage with.

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Recommended Reading

• "Nazi Billionaires" by David De Jong
• "The Man and His Cars" by Richard von Frankenberg
• "Nazi Billionaires" by David De Jong
• "We at Porsche" by Ferry Porsche

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This episode was meticulously researched and presented by Lindsey Graham, with contributions from Alan Roberts and insights from David De Jong. For more engaging business stories, subscribe to Business Movers on the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.

Transcript

[Lindsey Graham]

Want to get more from business movers? Subscribe to Wondery for early access to new episodes, ad free listening and exclusive content you can't find anywhere else. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on apple podcasts. It's 1948 at the Reuter Metalworks in Stuttgart, West Germany.

[Alan Roberts]

48 year old Alan Roberts walks through the factory floor, his eyes drawn to a partly built sports car being worked on by a one armed man wearing grease stained coveralls.

[Lindsey Graham]

Alan can't help but wonder whether this.

[Alan Roberts]

Man lost his arm in the war.

[Lindsey Graham]

The worker certainly wouldn't be the only.

[Alan Roberts]

Soldier who returned with life changing injuries. But not wanting to bring up that subject, Alan calls out his real purpose. Hey, excuse me. I'm looking for Fairy Porsche.

[Lindsey Graham]

The worker nods in the direction of a doorway.

[Alan Roberts]

Alan walks over to the door, knocks, and opens it.

[Lindsey Graham]

Behind a desk in a simple office.

[Alan Roberts]

Is Fairy Porsche, the managing director of his family business. He barely looks a day older than the last time Alan saw him, although that was many years ago. In 1931, Alan Robert was known as Adolph Rosenberger and he'd invested in his friend Ferdinand Porsche's new car design business. But after Adolf Hitler came to power, Rosenberger was squeezed out of the company due to his Jewish faith. He's now an American citizen with a new name and today marks the first.

[Lindsey Graham]

Time he's returned to Porsche since fleeing Germany in 1935.

[Alan Roberts]

The Fairey rises from his seat and offers his hand. Adolf, it's been a long time. It's Alan. I'm Alan Robert now. Of course. How are things in America? Good, good. I live in California with my wife Anne. She worked at Porsche too, I believe. Yeah, she. She was also forced to leave Germany. Fairey shakes his head. The Nazi regime forced so many Germans to do horrible things. Well, was it force or did Germans willingly go along with it? Because it wasn't Hitler who made me give up my stake in Portia. You were paid at the time 3,000 marks. My shares were worth at least 10 times that. Alan glares at Fairy, but Fairy returns the stare without flinching. It's as though the two men are sizing each other up. Eventually, Fairy breaks the silence. Well, why exactly did you want to see me today? I'd like fair restitution. I see. And what would you consider to be fair restitution? I'd like my place back at Portia on the same terms as when I left. But you resigned voluntarily. Oh, you know as well as I do I had no choice in the matter. Now it's time to make up for it. I want my stake in the company back. And I'd like to represent Porsche in America. Ah, would you look around you? We're sharing a factory. We're barely keeping our heads above water. We're in no state to start operations in America. Look, Ferry, I have little sympathy for Porsche's current trouble. As far as I'm concerned, the situation you're in is entirely self inflicted. But I believe there is still opportunity and I want a piece of it. Fairy Stans and then opens the door. Okay, Alan, I'm sure you understand that I'm going to need to take advice on this.

[Lindsey Graham]

Alan rises and heads for the door.

[Alan Roberts]

But as he passes Fairy, he stops. You know, Fairy, your father and I were once very close. I'll never get that back. But I can get back what the Nazis stole from me. You chose to be complicit. Now choose to be compassionate. After failing to reach a compromise, Alan.

[Lindsey Graham]

Roberts sued Porsche in an attempt to.

[Alan Roberts]

Regain his pre war stake in the company. But after the case dragged on for two years, Allen decided to settle. He received the equivalent of $150,000 today in a free car.

[Lindsey Graham]

And with that, the court decided that.

[Alan Roberts]

Alan Robert had finally been compensated for his mistreatment during Porsche's Nazi era. But he was a phenomenally cheap payoff for a company that was growing fast in into a major player in the sports car market.

[Lindsey Graham]

Business Movers is sponsored by upwork. Here is a true story. A few years ago I needed to scale up my podcast production business. We were getting busy and I needed to find a sharp, reliable audio editor. So I went to upwork and quickly found a freelancer who was not only good, but above and beyond good. You'll hear their name in the credits of this episode even because their work deserves to be called out. So I know with upwork you can find specialized freelancers in marketing, development, design, podcast, editing. Who knows? Experts who are ready to help you take your business to the next level. And posting my job on UPWORK was easy with no cost. Just register, then browse freelancer profiles, get help drafting a job post, maybe even book a consultation. From there, find, connect and hire freelancers that get you. Upwork makes the entire process easier, simpler and more affordable with industry low fees. So post a job today and hire tomorrow. With Upwork, visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's Upwork.com to post your job for free and connect with top talent ready to help your business grow up. W o r k.com Upwork.com when you're.

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[Alan Roberts]

From Wondery I'm Lindsey Graham and this is Business movers in the 21st century, the Porsche brand is synonymous with high performance luxury sports cars, and its iconic vehicles are famous around the globe. Its legendary 911 has endured for decades, a testament to the car's timeless design and ability to evolve to meet new trends, it's still as popular as ever. In 2024, the 911 helped to drive Porsche to revenue of more than $40 billion. But Porsche did not always focus on high end sports cars. It was founded in 1931 as a design consultancy with an interest in creating a mass market car for the people. And the driving force behind it was the talented engineer Ferdinand Porsche. Ferdinand's ambitions to redefine the European car industry was shared by Nazi leader Adolf Hitler, and together they worked up a concept for the Volkswagen, or people's car. But Ferdinand's partnership with Hitler left a stain on Porsche's reputation. During the war, tens of thousands of laborers were compelled to work at the Porsche workshop and Volkswagen factory, and many died thanks to the horrendous living and working conditions. And even before the war, one of the company's first investors was forced out thanks to Germany's anti Semitic policies. Commercial director Adolf Rosenberger was a skilled financier who kept Porsche afloat in its early years. But Rosenberger was forced to quit on the same day that Hitler was appointed Chancellor. Two years later, he sold his share in Porsche to Ferdinand and his son Ferry. But despite the company's rapid growth under his leadership, Rosenberg received no more than he'd originally put in four years earlier. Later, in 1935, Rosenberger was imprisoned by the Gestapo and held in captivity for more than three weeks. Fairy Porsche later claimed that his father had secured Rosenberger's release, although it's likely it was someone else within Portia who.

[Lindsey Graham]

Pulled a few strings.

[Alan Roberts]

Regardless, after his release, Rosenberger then fled Germany and lived briefly in France and Switzerland before settling in the USA and changing his name after the war. Rosenberger, now Alan Robert, tried to reclaim his stake in Porsche, but Fairey delayed evading the issue, and he even made veil anti Semitic inferences that Allen was interested only in profiting from Porsche's misfortune. Ultimately, both parties settled and Ferry went on to successfully resurrect Porsche from the ashes of World War II. He set the company down a new path and transformed it into a luxury sports car manufacturer we know today. But Fairey's treatment of Porsche's Jewish co founder suggests that the poisonous beliefs of the Nazi regime ran deep. And it's a troubled legacy that the company is still wrestling with today. Here to talk about the impact of Nazi policies on Porsche and other German companies is David De Jong, author of Nazi Billionaires.

[Lindsey Graham]

David De Jong, thank you for speaking with me today on Business Movers.

[David De Jong]

With pleasure, Lindsey. Thank you for having me.

[Lindsey Graham]

You're a finance and business journalist, but what made you decide to go back.

[Alan Roberts]

More than 80 years to write about Adolf Hitler's Germany for your book Nazi Billionaires?

[David De Jong]

I was a reporter with Bloomberg News in New York, and back in 2011, I started researching family owned companies, family offices, companies that weren't listed on the stock exchange, but they were exclusively owned by families. And I was actually hired by Bloomberg to investigate North American business families. But because I'm Dutch originally, they soon asked me, oh, can you also cover the Germanic speaking countries like Switzerland, Austria, Germany? So what I would do is I would spend a month, a year in the Bloomberg bureaus in those countries, like Germany, like Switzerland, like Austria. And the stories I would come back with were always a mix of the financial, the historical and the business side of things. And what really struck me in my reporting was that, you know, business families that control companies like BMW or Porsche or other major global consumer brands, you know, would celebrate their fathers and grandfathers for their business successes, but would leave out any trace of their mass war crimes, their Nazi affiliations, after they had purported to had reckoned with these crimes. So I thought it was such a whitewash, such a brazen obfuscation of history that I wanted to shine a light on that. And that's why I ended up leaving Bloomberg, moving from New York to Berlin and spending four years on the research and writing of what ultimately became Nazi billionaires.

[Lindsey Graham]

During your time researching these companies and their founders, what was perhaps the most shocking or emotionally difficult discovery you made while preparing for your book?

[David De Jong]

I think it was broadly the fact that there was no remorse whatsoever for the Crimes that they had participated in, whether that was the mass exploitation of men, women and children as forced enslaved laborers in their factories or mines in Nazi Germany, whether it was the wholesale robbery of Jewish owned businesses or of expropriated businesses in German or Nazi occupied territory, or their participation, their mass participation in arms production. It was really this kind of complete lack of reflection post war, but solely on their own survival at whatever cost.

[Lindsey Graham]

I might be jumping to the end here a bit, but let me ask you what you think remorse might look like for these companies.

[David De Jong]

I think it's very hard to demand something from private companies, right. Whether privately owned or even companies that are listed on stock exchange. So what I argue for in the book is a bare minimum, which is radical transparency, which is transparency with regards to history, so that consumers know what products they're spending their money on and where the money ends up. Because these families maintain massive global charitable foundations, media prizes, academic chairs, museums, corporate headquarters in the names of their fathers and grandfathers were successful in business, but were also Nazi war criminals. And I think these companies and these families should be transparent about both. Because you only learn something from history by showing the good and the bad. And if you only show the good, you know it's just a whitewash. And if they don't want to commit to that, if they don't want to submit to radical transparency, they should rename these institutions.

[Lindsey Graham]

Let's turn our attention to Ferdinand Porsche and where he stood in the auto industry before Hitler rose to power in 1933. He began as an auto engineer, but what was his standing in the industry at large?

[David De Jong]

He was seen as somebody who was very difficult to work with, but also a genius. Somebody who kind of this erratic piano genius engineer would spend massive budgets, would get into work conflicts, would get fired, and then basically redo it all over again. So he was employed at Daimler, he was employed at Maybach, now known as this massive luxury car. But he was employed at various massive car companies, or massive for that time, right? And we're talking the 1920s here until the start of the Great Depression. He struck out on his own together with his business partner, Adolf Rosenberger, who was the commercial director, a Jewish man and also a car designer, as well as Ferdinand Porsche's son in law, Anton Pierre, who is a a lawyer and was the legal counsel of the enterprise. And that's how the Porsche, a car design firm, started in Stuttgart in 1930. And by the time 1933 comes around, the Porsche car design firm is in dire straits. It has been burning Money on car designs which aren't functional, which aren't selling. It's the tail end of the Great Depression. Germany is in huge economic and financial turmoil, as is, for that part, the rest of the world climbing out of the Great Depression. So Ferdinand Porsche sees an opportunity when Hitler sees his power in Germany and he capitalizes on that.

[Lindsey Graham]

Let's investigate this relationship between Ferdinand and Hitler. You say that Ferdinand saw an opportunity and capitalized on it. Was he presented with the opportunity for the Volkswagen by Hitler or did he pursue it?

[David De Jong]

It was a bit of both, actually. He pursued it. He wrote a letter to Hitler very shortly after he seized power in January 1933, saying that his engineering skills and prowess was at Hitler's disposal. And so he lobbies quite staunchly also through his contacts in the car industry, to get a role with Hitler, whatever that might be. Right, Abstract at that point. But then a year later, Hitler says there needs to be a car produced for the people. Right? Which is the literal translation of Volkswagen, a car for the people. And Ferdinand Porsche puts together a 30 page proposal in which he outlines the idea for the Volkswagen, which is not an original idea. It was actually thought up by a Jewish engineer called Joseph Gans, who of course does not have any shot at work in Nazi Germany or having his design ideas go into production. But Fernand Porsche actually manages to get through to Hitler and gets tasked with producing the Volkswagen.

[Lindsey Graham]

Was this relationship, do you think, purely transactional? Was it a way to save the.

[Alan Roberts]

Company or was there more ideological alignment?

[David De Jong]

It was primarily a way for Ferdinand Porsche to design cars. Yes, he ended up saving the Porsche car design firm by getting the Volkswagen tender, but his main goal was to get a car designed on the most massive scale as possible, which actually only happens after World War II with regards to the Volkswagen, even though the Nazis plow tens of millions of Reichsmarks into the project.

[Lindsey Graham]

So now In World War II, the Volkswagen factory that was ultimately built was based on a facility in Dearborn, Michigan, the Ford plant. That relationship between Ford and Hitler was more ideologically aligned, is that correct?

[David De Jong]

That is absolutely correct. Henry Ford was a virulent anti Semite and idealized Hitler, as did Hitler idealized Henry Ford. And it was actually through Ford that Hitler got the idea of building the largest factory in the world for the Volkswagen car, which ended up being in the heart of Germany. And Fernand Porsche and his son in law, Anton P. Were put in charge of running the factory. But it ended up producing very little Volkswagen cars during World War II, only 500, which ironically all went to the Nazi elite. Men like Hitler, Goebbels, Himmler, Goering, the Nazi top and their acolytes. Because the Volkswagen factory was soon retooled as a mass weapons factory where tens of thousands, thousands of men, women and children were exploited as forced enslaved laborers. It had sub concentration camps on the factory premises. So it really became kind of a weapon slaughterhouse by lack of another description. It was really the plant that Fernand Porsche and his son in law oversaw in the heart of Germany was really one of the worst run places in terms of labor conditions. And how many people? The thousands that ended up dying there.

[Lindsey Graham]

But Porsche and the Volkswagen factory that was rutul for wartime use. This was not unique for the time in Germany. What other companies might have thrived under the Nazi regime?

[David De Jong]

No, it certainly wasn't unique. It was a very, very widespread phenomenon. And so you had various collaborations between German companies and Nazi concentration camps. For example, BMW, Siemens Krupp and various other major German companies that struck deals with the Nazis in order to get cheap or free labor and had concentration camps built, so called satellite concentration camps built on their factory premises and exploit concentration camp captives and other slave laborers under the worst imaginable circumstances in their factories and mines.

[Lindsey Graham]

Now, all over the world, industry was retooling to meet their country's wartime efforts. But in Germany, how would you characterize the difference? Is it the reliance on this slave labor?

[David De Jong]

It was, it was the reliance on forced and slave labor. Of course, all able bodied men were on the front lines, whether in Eastern Europe, whether in Western Europe, Southern Europe. And the way to fill in that labor gap was to initiate the largest coerced labor program the world has seen to date. And you know you have an approximate 12 to 20 million Europeans that ended up being arrested and deported to be put to work under horrific circumstances in German factories and mines. And of those 12 to 20 million, an approximate 2 million died as forced or slave laborers. Now the distinction between forced and slave labor is that forced laborers were involuntary laborers, but they got paid much less than their German counterparts. Obviously, enslaved laborers, like concentration camp captives or prisoners of war did not receive any kind of remuneration for the work that they did.

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[Lindsey Graham]

I can imagine that for at least some business owners in Germany that the reliance on this forced labor or slave labor is at best unsavory. What happened to businesses that didn't go along with the new regime?

[David De Jong]

There's very, very, very, very few businesses that did not go along. If you talk about the major companies, there is no one which did not go along. Yet there isn't really anybody that didn't get along. Which is why, you know, many decades later there was a huge mass settlement by most of German business. 6,500 companies signed up to it to remunerate surviving forced enslaved laborers from having been exploited in German factories and mines. But you know, I get this question very often, but there wasn't really any company that didn't use any kind of form of forced and slave labor.

[Lindsey Graham]

Now you mentioned earlier that one of the, I suppose the founding partners of Porsche was Adolf Rosenberger and he was a Jewish man and forced out of Porsche. Did he receive any compensation for his role in founding Porsche?

[David De Jong]

He did not, no. Adolf Rosenberger was a co founder of Porsche. In 1930, he received 10% of the shares in the Porsche car design firm. When he was pushed out in 1935 for being a Jew, he received a nominal value of his shares from 1930, which means that he did not receive any money for it or he received the same amount for it five years later. Even though the profits, even though the Porsche car design firm had become much more valuable because it had received the design of the Volkswagen and it was now, you know, having gone from the dire straits of the 1933, it was now a profitable enterprise and you know, Adolf Rosenberger was received the pittance, did not receive a fair market value amount for the shares that he owned.

[Lindsey Graham]

I wonder if you can help me understand this situation, or at least the details of it. I would imagine that if you start a company with someone, you trust them, you like them, you expect them to work with you well into the future, but then to be confronted with a situation in which you must fire them or even just metaphorically disappear them from your company must be incredibly difficult. Do you know much about this decision that Ferdinand Porsche made?

[David De Jong]

Yeah, he seemed to have no qualms about it, nor did his son in law, Anton Pierre, about Putin pushing out, out of Rosenberger for being a Jew from the Porsche car design firm. There are letters that Anton Pierre, who was this, you know, combative legal counsel to Adolf Rosenberger, where, you know, Adolf Rosenberger tried to get another role with Porsche or tried to stay on the good side. But yeah, it was clear that they wanted nothing to do with him because the fact that he was Jewish made him a pariah for the Porsche car design firm under Hitler's regime. So Adolf Rosenberger ended up initially fleeing to Paris and then actually immigrating to the United States and settling in Los Angeles, and he was subsequently erased from Porsche history. Now Fast forward to 2025 and there's actually going to be a study published on the life of Adolf Rosenberger, financed by Porsche, but initiated by the heirs of Adolf Rosenberger. Title is called Driven out And it's a 700 page biography of Adolf Rosenberger and his life. And yeah, it's coming out in September 2025. It will also be available in English. So it's a major triumph of, you know, having Adolf Rosenberger's story, pivotal story in one of the world's largest car brands, you know, being rewritten back into history, as it were.

[Lindsey Graham]

I think that's an encouraging development, but it prompts me to ask, how else has the Porsche company ever formally acknowledged or taken responsibility for its actions in history during the Nazi era?

[David De Jong]

It hasn't. It hasn't. What I've noticed in my reporting about Porsche is that the brand has to be protected at all costs. So there's little to none acknowledgement about the role that Ferdinand Porsche and Anton Pierre played during the Third Reich as exploiting tens of thousands of forced enslaved laborers, ousting their Jewish business partner for being a Jew. Ferry Porsche, the son of Fernand Porsche, who ends up making Porsche a, you know, a global car brand after World War II, is actually an ideological Nazi who signs up as a Waffen SS officer, which was the paramilitary branch of the Nazi party, and surrounds himself in the Porsche boardroom with former high ranking SS officers in the 1950s and 60s. So there was even a post war continuation of former Nazis, of old Nazis. You know, some of them had perpetrated mass war crimes of the worst kinds imaginable, whose senses were commuted after the war and who could return to a cozy job at Porsche.

[Lindsey Graham]

Speaking of Ferdinand's son, Ferry, he took the company in a completely different direction than his father by focusing on sports cars. And that's the modern ideal of Porsche we have today. I'm wondering if you think that that shift, that break between the Volkswagen and the Porsche sports car helped the company divert attention from its past.

[David De Jong]

That's a good question. I mean, the Porsche car design firm, as it existed between 1930 and 1949, it focused on producing various car designs. The Volkswagen was one of them. Right. But the Volkswagen was kind of a standalone project. It was a state project in a way. It was financed by the state, it was subsidized by the state. It wasn't a private enterprise project, even though it was done by a private car design firm. And Ferry, Porsche indeed takes it into an entirely different direction by focusing on one sports car, the Porsche, and making that the sole brand. So in a way, the Porsche car design firm, which initially takes on all these kinds of car designs, is basically folded into one Porsche sports company and focuses solely on sports cars. And the US is actually their biggest market right from the early 1950s, and they find a lot of clients there.

[Lindsey Graham]

Do you think that the legacy of Porsche's wartime conduct has shaped the modern brand in any way?

[David De Jong]

That's a good question. I mean, they went public, they went through the stock market in September 2022, and what they had to put in as a cave that in the SEC document, the securities and Exchange Commission document, which every company that has to go public in the United States has to file, that could be revelations regarding the period 1933-45 that might adversely affect the stock price. So in a way, they always have this kind of shadow of the past looming over it. But they've been so successful in kind of pacifying the subject. You know, they're one of the most profitable car companies in the world. Right. The Porsche Pierre dynasty, which really, truly laid the basis of their foundation of their wealth during the Third Reich, you know, doesn't only oversee Porsche and Volkswagen, but also Seat, Skoda, Bentley, Lamborghini, and numerous other car and motor brands. Right. I mean, they really oversee one of the largest car conglomerates in the world, which, by the way, is not doing great because the German economy is not doing Great. And there's fear of Volkswagen having to. Volkswagen factories having to close. And it's a big economic debate in Germany and in Europe. Larger. But yeah, in a way, you would say Porsche does everything to not get its dark history, its dark roots. Very Porsche's, you know, SS past, Ferdinand Porsche's brutal Nazi past, Anton Pierre's brutal Nazi past on display. I mean, if you go to the Porsche museum in Stuttgart, there are hardly any mentions of it. And I think now that this Adolf Rosenberger study will be published in September 2025, you know, there will be hopefully more room to discuss also the dark pages of Porsche's history.

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[Lindsey Graham]

Today's consumers aren't really expected to read FEC disclosures that reveal that there might be further discussion or risk in a company's Nazi past.

[Alan Roberts]

So what responsibilities do today's consumers have.

[Lindsey Graham]

When engaging with brands that might have such dark historical roots?

[David De Jong]

That's a very good question. I mean, it's difficult, right? Because if you have to look up every product you consume, where does it end, right? Where do you draw the line? But I think consumers should be mindful about where their money ends up. You know, it could turn into dividends of the Porsche Pierre family and go towards maintaining the very Porsche Foundation. Foundation named after a former SS officer, you know, who surrounded himself with SS men who, you know, said vitriolic, anti Semitic things about Adolf Rosenberger in his 1970s autobiography, you know, who was a Nazi through and through. So it is a little bit. Particularly if you buy a Porsche, you're splurging. So if you're going to spend so much money on a car, you want to know a little bit about its history and also the family that owns it, I would say. And same goes for, you know, they also own Audi, right? They own Volkswagen, they own Bentley, they own Lamborghini. I mean, these are all major brands that people read up a little bit on the history and be like, am I comfortable that my money ends up with a family like that? That's a question that consumers should ask for themselves, that consumers should investigate. Be a little bit mindful about where your money ends up.

[Lindsey Graham]

This also prompts a conversation about the separation between, I guess, the product and the produce. It's even more of a discussion, perhaps in pop music, for instance, certain artists have been canceled for abhorrent behavior, but their music is still good. So how do you separate admiration for Porsche's engineering from its critique of its origins?

[David De Jong]

That's difficult. I think one should look at the current conduct of a company. The past is the past. You can't change that, right? But how does a company deal with its past? Is it transparent about its past? Is it acknowledging its past? Is it making an honest effort through moral reckoning? These are major questions that people should ask, right? And if the answer is no, you should think twice. Because one of the things that investors asked when the Porsche car firm was going public in 2022 was, you know, if you're going to lie about your history, are you also going to lie about your numbers? Right. Which prompted them to really clean house quite quickly and settle with the Rosenberger heirs for this kind of moral settlement, because the financial settlement had already happened in 1950 between Adolf Rosenberger and the Porsche car design firm. But a moral settlement that allowed Adolf Rosenberger to be rewritten back into Porsche history. So if you're going to lie about your history, are you also going to lie about your numbers? I think it's a very fair question that investors ask, but consumers can ask the same thing. If you're going to lie about your history, are you also going to lie about how good your car is? Right.

[Lindsey Graham]

In this conversation, it's easy for me to imagine A counter argument being, why can't we just let the past be the past? When will enough be enough? Is reparations ever going to be sufficient? But in our talk here, it occurs to me that in your view, we shouldn't be talking about when is enough, when we can end, when we haven't really even started. So what I'd like to know is.

[Alan Roberts]

What you hope your readers take away.

[Lindsey Graham]

From your book and learning about Porsche's origins within the broader context of Nazi Germany.

[David De Jong]

I mean, I think, first of all, you know, it's not about. I would never argue for any kind of boycott. I think for me, personal freedom and personal choice are really the biggest freedoms that we have in the world. Right? And I'm also not arguing for more money to be paid. But what my book does argue for is a moral reckoning, is historical transparency. And I think the lesson that, you know, that readers can take away from the Porsche history is that contrary to all the other families I write about in my book, is that the Porsche Pierre family really did lay the foundation of their wealth during the Third Reich because of the Nazi regime. All these other families I write about were already very wealthy when Hitler seized power, and they just increased their wealth. But it is, you know, says something about opportunism, right? About expanding your bottom line at all cost, at the severe detriment of your business partner, of the lives and livelihood of tens of thousands of people that were men, women and children that were exploited in the Volkswagen factory, and also hundreds, actually, that were exploited by the Porsche car design firm in Stuttgart, separately, under the guise of Fernand Porsche, or even in their own household where they had slave laborers. So, you know, it is about the grayscale. It is about, you know, how does criminality in business devolve, right? It starts with Hitler promising to jumpstart the German economy, where, you know, he says, we're going to initiate the largest rearmament program that the world has ever seen, which he also delivers on that promise. Now, rearmament itself wasn't criminal, right? It was forbidden under the Treaty of Versailles, but it wasn't criminal. But then, you know, it starts with mass weapons production, then it devolves into the ousting of Jewish business partners like Adolf Rosenberger, taking away their shares. And then it devolves, as persecution ramps up in the second half of the 1930s into outright theft and robbery of Jewish business families of any kind of asset, whether that's shares or, you know, real estate, art, you name it, which is a practice that also continues in German occupied territories across Europe during World War II. But then of course, with the absolute low point being the mass exploitation of tens of millions in forced and slave labor in German factories and mines. So it is really kind of the moral devil or the moral regression that businesses participate in. Not only Nazi Germany. Right. I mean, we have seen it historically and we see it in contemporary events in many countries, but that's really, I would say, be cognizant of history and the role that business plays in it. You know, I would say that that's very important.

[Lindsey Graham]

It is obvious that Ferdinand Porsche was facing an existential decision, a bottom line question. He would be far better off if he aligned himself with Hitler and perhaps fell world evolution. You just described. For business leaders listening to this now, let's hope that they never have to make such a decision in their lifetimes. But there will always be choices between the bottom line and something else less tangible. How should our listeners make those choices?

[David De Jong]

They should make those choices with humanity in mind and not with the bottom line in mind. But that is the thing about capitalism in the sense is that it's amoral, right? I mean, money flows where it flows and you know, the bottom line of any business is profit. So it is very hard to keep humanity in mind when it comes to making money. But this is the eternal conundrum for business leaders, business owners, is to how to engage in practices ethically, both in doing your business domestically and abroad, how to do right by your customers, do right by your clients. These are moral conundrums that one has to answer for themselves every day, on a daily basis, on an hourly basis often. But yeah, I would say keep humanity and honesty in mind with regards to your business affairs.

[Alan Roberts]

David De Jong, thank you for talking.

[Lindsey Graham]

With me today on Business Movers.

[Alan Roberts]

I enjoyed it.

[David De Jong]

Thank you, Lindsay.

[Alan Roberts]

That was my conversation with David De Jong. His book Nazi Billionaires is available now from Wondering. This is the final episode of our series on Porsche on the next season of Business Movers. After almost a century of controlling the telecommunications industry in the United States, AT&T's dominance is threatened by new competition. It's a challenge that AT&T has weathered before, but this time is different because the political climate has changed and the power brokers in Washington D.C. no longer have AT&T's back.

[Lindsey Graham]

If you like business Movers, you can unlock exclusive episodes found nowhere else on Wondery and access new episodes early and ad free. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon music. And before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a [e-mail] survey.

[Alan Roberts]

If you'd like to learn more about Porsche, we recommend the man and His Cars by Richard von Frankenberg Nazi Billionaires by today's guest, David de Jong and we at Porsche by Ferry Porsche A quick note about our dramatizations in most cases, we can't know everything that happened, but all our reenactments are based on historical research. Business Movers is hosted, edited and executive produced by by me, Lindsey Graham for Airship Audio editing by Mohammad Shazid Sound design by Molly Bak. Our supervising sound designer is Matthew Filler. Music by Thrum. This episode is written and researched by Cody Hoffman Coordinating producer Jake Sampson, senior producer Scott Reeves. Executive producers are William Simpson for Airship and Aaron o' Flaherty, Jenny Lauer Beckman.

[Lindsey Graham]

And Marshall Louie for Wondering.

[H]

Today is the worst day of Abby's life. The 17 year old cradles her newborn son in her arms.

[David De Jong]

They all saw how much I loved him.

[H]

They didn't have to take him from me. Between 1945 and the early 1970s, families shipped their pregnant teenage daughters to maternity homes and forced them to secretly place their babies for adoption in hidden corners across America. It's still happening. My parents had me locked up in the godparent home against my will. They worked with them to manipulate me and to steal my son away from me. The godparent home is the brainchild of controversial preacher Jerry Falwell, the father of the modern Evangelical Rite and the founder of Liberty University, where powerful men, emboldened by their faith, determine who can gets to be a parent and who must give their child away. Follow Liberty Lost on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.