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Business of Home Podcast
Accidentally John Derian
00:53:22
Artist, author and shopkeeper John Derian tells the story of his multifaceted career
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- [00:00]
John Darien
Foreign.
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Dennis Scully
This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking to leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is John Darien. In the early days, John drew attention for his decoupage pieces, which cleverly repurposed illustrations from the 19th century. Over the years, he's become so much more shopkeeper, artist, author and purveyor of the world's most unique Christmas ornaments. I spoke with John about his collaborations with everyone from Target to Stubbs and Wootton, how he's managed to keep a sprawling operation going without an inventory and point of sale system, and why he's never had a master plan, taking the growth of his business day by day, step by step. This podcast is sponsored by Leloy, maker of rugs, pillows and wall art for the thoughtfully layered home. This season, Laloy introduces a breadth of new collections for all styles, all aesthetics and all price points. Visit loloirugs.com to see what's new and sign up for a trade account that's L-O L O I rugs.com and follow them on Instagram and TikTok Lloyrugs. This podcast is also sponsored by Clafs, the world leader in sauna luxury. For thousands of years, sauna bathing has provided the heat we crave. With Claphs saunas, you can select the exact levels of temperature and humidity to create a wide range of soothing appetite atmospheres, from a classic Finnish sauna to a gentler, soft steam experience. When you step into a class sauna, you are in control. To learn more about the leaders in sauna luxury and their exclusive trade programs, visit klafsusa.com that's K L A F S USA.com and now on with the show. So, John, you and I were speaking recently about your desire to come up with a two word description for your business, like shabby chic. And so I turned to our listeners and asked for some help and suggestions. And much to my delight, they came through with some ideas.
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John Darien
Oh, wow, I'm ready.
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Dennis Scully
So my favorite, joyous Wunderkammer. I mean, come on.
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John Darien
Yeah. In fact, look that word up.
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Dennis Scully
Well, right. So I had to, I had to look up Wunderkammer as well.
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John Darien
Right.
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Dennis Scully
Which is a. Which is a German word for sort of a magical place or a curiosity shop. And I thought, oh, I like it even more now. But lots of people responded with joyous aesthetic forager. Another one came up with, which I thought was so sweet, kind of like that. So lots of Joyous answers. So I thought that was very sweet. Right. That they.
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John Darien
It's. Yeah, it's almost. That's almost as catchy as Shabby Chic Joyous Vernon.
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Dennis Scully
That'll just roll off the tongue. Yeah. Tell the people at Target. So here's what I'm thinking.
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John Darien
I'll start with them.
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Dennis Scully
I'm thinking we were going to kickstart sales by going with Joyous Wunderkammer and they are going to love it. I'll share more if I, if I get good ones.
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John Darien
Okay.
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Dennis Scully
But people were excited to participate in the exercise and the fan base, you know, really turns out. Which is, which is sweet.
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John Darien
Some people like homework. Some people like homework.
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Dennis Scully
I don't sense that you were one of those people.
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John Darien
I don't remember. I remember. Did you do your homework? Yes. Like, I have nieces and things. I'm like, what are you doing? Lots of homework.
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Dennis Scully
I was actually really terrible about doing homework. That may have led to me getting kicked out of several schools in my high school years. Yeah, that may have been. That may, you know, been one of the issues. I'm just saying. But it just shows you you can turn yourself around.
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John Darien
Yeah. I'm a dropout.
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Dennis Scully
Well, right. I mean, so I was thinking about your, your childhood. Your youngest of, of six, if I recall.
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John Darien
Correct. Yeah. And.
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Dennis Scully
And growing up in, in Watertown. Tell me, tell me a little bit of what that was like. And if I recall, were you the only one of the six that didn't end up working in the family shop? But, but you tell me.
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John Darien
Oh, right. Yes. Yeah. I, I don't know what it. If it was because I was the youngest and sort of left alone that I found myself doing more sort of things by myself and being creative alone. Although I did have a couple brothers that were only two and four years older than me. So, yeah, they all worked. My dad worked at Star Market, sort of like a career manager. He worked there for 40 years. And I didn't work at a Star Market. You know, that was, it was okay. I mean, he turned around one day when I was like 28 and said, oh, I had this idea maybe you could deliver. Deliver milk. Like, he had read something that leasing milk trucks would be something I could do. And I was like, you have no idea who I am. See? But he never did. It was, you know, fine. He just worried about me, I guess, as a, as a creative child and a family of non creatives.
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Dennis Scully
Well, that was the funny thing too. So how did that happen? How did you end up being a Creative child in a family of non creatives.
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John Darien
Well, some people, because I don't really know. Some people have said maybe it is because I was left alone to be creative.
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Dennis Scully
But. But growing up in, in Massachusetts. Tell me, tell me a little bit of what that was like and how it. It set you on this, on this path somewhat.
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John Darien
Again, just sort of being left alone. I guess I found myself being more creative and making things and my environments were important to me. And I was forever, I really was forever building forts in all kinds of places. Like abandoned buildings. Once in a milk truck, in bushes, in trees, wherever I could find a place to create environment. Spread out. I did. I got in trouble a little bit for it and then I just collected things and I started making things and then it just turned into making more.
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Dennis Scully
Things and then that's it.
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John Darien
But when people ask me, I always say I'm doing the same things where like I did a little play acting, I moved furniture around, I made things and I collected things.
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Dennis Scully
Did you ever really consider, seriously consider acting?
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John Darien
I am actually still waiting to be discovered. I do say it all the time to people. I said it yesterday to someone in the store who came by. I was like, took a picture. I was like, oh, I'm still waiting to be discovered. Yeah. And I still play. I play charades with some friends. That's my little fix we played last night. We have a charades group that kind of gets together for many years and now it's sort of just. There's a dwindle down to a few of us because of COVID But that was fun. So we get to.
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Dennis Scully
So that's the acting muscle that gets worked as you.
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John Darien
Well, it's a little bit the acting muscle, but you know, you know, being a public facing person sort of in shops and stuff, you are not necessarily acting, but I am engaging.
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Dennis Scully
I was lost in the house and garden video of your home on the cape, which is so charming. And I want to talk about that. But did that in any way resemble the home you grew up in? Were there parallels there or did your childhood home feel very different?
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John Darien
My childhood home felt very different. Where it was kind of scary. I couldn't really go into the attic or basement for many years until I was probably like 14. And then it was. Something just changed and I was able to go up and down the stairs and it was. We lived in a two family house my family owned, but we lived on the dark side and my grandmother lived on the other side, which was like the sunny side. So I didn't really know what I was missing until I got into a sunny house once, and I was like, wow, this is nice. A lot of, you know, definitely chaos. You know, a lot of chaos.
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Dennis Scully
And did. Did you and your siblings get along? Was there or was it.
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John Darien
I. I didn't really. My. I was just talking to my brother, who I don't really talk too much, who I said was just talking about how we didn't get along as kids. And he sort of was a little surprised I said it. And somehow my brother forgot that. So. But I had, you know, I had all kinds of things I did and sang and played games and walked to school and did all kinds of melancholy things that I thought were totally normal. I didn't realize I had sort of an attention thing. I did really stare out the window a lot during school and just fantasize, I guess, because I had a crazy imagination. And I saw old report cards, like, many years later, and all of them were about my attention.
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Dennis Scully
And your lack of attention?
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John Darien
Lack of attention. But I was like, I like that teacher. Why did she write that she still loved me even though I was. I didn't pay much attention.
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Dennis Scully
And at the time, did you have any notion of what you really wanted to do? Was there anything pulling you in a direction?
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John Darien
No. It's almost like I was guided by something because I backtracked to think of all the things that I did. I always had three jobs. I worked at the Brattle Theater in Cambridge taking tickets. I worked in a shop a couple days a week, and I worked as a waiter. And nothing ever really made sense, but I liked doing all those things. And then when I ended up having my own business, suddenly I was like, oh, they all make sense. And they all kind of helped shape me as a person. And then I went to Salem State College in 1980 for one semester because I just felt like I had to do something. And then I left there. And then in 1982, I went to MassArt for a semester, which was fun, but then I just didn't really get school.
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Dennis Scully
So at one point, and I saw this sweet picture the other day of you and Apple Parrish Bartlett.
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John Darien
Oh, right, yeah.
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Dennis Scully
Sister Parrish's daughter, we should point out for listeners. And I know you worked with her for a short time. Yes.
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John Darien
Yeah. So in 1982, I was at MassArt. At the end of that semester, I was in a watercolor class, and I would stay late with these two women, and this guy came in to meet one of the people that was painting with, and suddenly he sat down. Then all of a sudden he looked. Seemed familiar. But then I realized I'd seen him around town, in around Boston. And then we became friends and then we became boyfriends. And then he is kind of how I learned more about antiques and things. He got me up to Boston, to Marblehead in Salem, and sort of learned about antiques and antiquing. And when we lived together, he had access to all these natural materials and he would bring stuff home and I would play with it too. And the first thing I sold in like 1983 was a wreath that I made to a realtor who was renting our apartment who saw it and said she asked if she could buy it. And so then that led to making things for this flower shop that was going to open. Then ultimately I ended up making things for the shop LaRouche in Boston, owned by these two women, Maria Church and Apple Partlett. I would just work there on Saturdays, but I would. I would make things at home and sell them in the shop on consignment. Yeah, so my sister Parish would come in the store every once in a while with her dogs and was a little intense and worldly, but otherwise I just made my things and sold them the store.
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Dennis Scully
I was curious about it because it also sounded like it was where you first did decoupage. And we should tell people what that is for people that aren't familiar, which became a little bit of a signature for you over the years. So tell people what that is and what you were fooling around with at the time.
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John Darien
Yeah, in the early 80s, I found some printed material, like printed old botanical prints of flowers, and I was impressed by the color and I started collecting those kinds of things. And then later I started making like map covered boxes where I would sort of take old maps and cover boxes. So I started doing a little of that and a little bit of collage work, just like kind of like making cards to sell in the store. I just was very not. I was kind of non stop making things. And then in like 1989, this other creative person that worked that sold things to the shop, LaRouche, came in with some clear glass plates and said, oh, you know, I don't have time to do this, but people are gluing images on the back. You should try it. And I took the plates to my studio, which I had in Boston in the South End, and I made some plates and I brought them to work and I sold them. But I used original materials and it didn't really make any sense and they didn't really Nothing really worked well. And then I discovered sort of like a laser printer, like a couple, like a year later. And so suddenly I could actually reprint the materials and make multiples of the same thing. So until 1989, everything I made was one of a kind. And in that shop for those few years, I became sort of famous for making button topiary trees. How's that? I did button covered boxes, button covered birds, button covered trees. And I was sort of like, you know, I left Boston as being known for making button trees. And then I moved to New York. And then suddenly my whole decoupage career sort of exploded. So basically, it's the art of gluing and cutting images and pasting them on the back of the clear glass. I think the word is actually called potty chomania, which means to make things look like porcelain. And what decoupage is is paper images on surfaces, and what we do is under surfaces. So when you look at it, it's a little bit sort of magical because you don't really know what you're looking at because it looks like it's pottery, but then it's actually glued on the reverse. And the glue dries clear. You kind of put glue all over the image, and you put it under the glass, and then it kind of dries clear. And then you have basically a glass plate with the image on the back. So you can use them. You can only wipe them clean. You can't immerse them because it's basically just paper and water. So if you put in the dishwasher, you would get a clear glass plate, right?
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Dennis Scully
It would all be gone.
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John Darien
Yeah. And then once I've discovered that I could repeat these things, I designed, like a little set of seven plates or eight designs, and I took them to Barney's, and I had two meetings with them. I went twice to see them, and the second time I was frustrated that they liked what I was doing, but they wanted me to get my prices down. And the prices were like rock bottom. And I was only just guessing, this cost this much, this cost this much, you know? So Apple had sent me to her friends who had a shop called Lexington Gardens, owned by Susan Collie and her sister, whose name I can't remember. And I called them and they said, sure, come on uptown. This is like a pay phone in front of Barney's. So I went up there, they saw my plates, and they're like, these are great. Is it okay if we take them to a show that's happening this weekend? And I was like, does that mean it's like, well, it's a show where other stores come and they buy the products and they order them and then you will make those things and then ship them to those stores. And I was like, okay. She's like, so we'll take this $20 plate, we're going to sell it for $40 and then people in the stores are going to sell it for $80. And I was like, I don't believe it. I just seemed like far fetched. But then like three days later the show ended and they sent me orders for like worth totaling like $30,000. And so then I had to hire all my friends. So they cut and glue and paste and pack and I shipped all this stuff out. And that was sort of the beginning. It kind of started big like that. And then just had another show with them that fall. And then I switched to getting a new rep called the Lune Company, run by these two women, Serene and Maureen. And they started bringing myself to shows and we just kept, it just kept growing. And that's kind of how I had this career and just like doing decoupage and when people reach out to me like where in like a decoupage society, want me to come talk. And I'm like, I'm not an expert. I just, you know, I feel like I just do this thing which I like and I'm passionate about, but I don't really, I didn't know how, would know how to teach anybody really anything. So. Yeah, so my personal style was at the time was I painted borders, I painted, I did a lot of painting and I mix it with some of the images, like a lot of octagonal plates and sort of sets and matching things. And then around 2000, I was like, what? I think this is what I'm doing with my life. So then I just sort of reset a little bit and looked at and then started doing sort of more like different kinds of shaped trays and like single images. Images that were interesting to me. And then it just, it changed a lot. The kind of, the aesthetic, the look I was kind of going for.
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Dennis Scully
So let's talk about. So you open a shop and it really becomes this great big thing. I mean, and now you've got multiple shops.
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John Darien
Yeah, I moved to New York in 92 and then I did everything out of my apartment and I had staff would come every day and I was a quote, cottage industry. And I would make lunch for everybody. And then I got a little bigger. So I took a space downstairs in the same building in the Lower east side it was like kind of a sub basement and did the same thing there for like a year. And then in 95, I just needed a bigger space. So I took the one on second Street. But then I thought, oh, it's a storefront, so maybe I can have a store on the front. And I never planned to have a store, but I thought since I had the space and I had a storefront, I'll have a store. So I put up a curtain. The front was retail, the back was where we made everything and shipped, etc. And then I would say maybe in 2000, I want to say end of winter sort of came into the store, something like that, when suddenly, like, she featured me this big spread in vogue for best Christmas shopping places. And it just changed the demographic of my client customer. Like, suddenly I was selling now to lifestyle stores as opposed to just like decorator home shops or gift shops. So it did really switch. Then I expanded the store. Then a few years later, a space on my block, two buildings became available. Then it sat there empty for three years because the owner wanted to do a restaurant. But then he finally said to me, do you want to take it? And I was like, I. I don't know why, but sure, that's what I did. And then that became my dry goods store named Dry Goods because I didn't know what else to name it. And everything else, everything basically is dry goods. Then my middle neighbor, you know, their kids had grown up and they were going to renovate their building. I had a storefront that I want their storefront. And I was like, I guess. So I took that and made it my furniture store. So everything really had become organic. Everything was sort of organic. I didn't plan anything. It just all just happened, you know, simply basic math. Basic math. Think basic math. And I had a really good bookkeeper at the time who was like, you know, learn to do the thing, do the things you can do well, but have. Find people to help you do the things you can't do. And she never shamed me about my abilities and of, you know, financial abilities or taxes and all those things. She was just very, very positive.
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Dennis Scully
She was, she was very supportive of you.
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John Darien
Thank you. She's very supportive. Yeah. The words.
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Dennis Scully
Well, and, and, and you didn't. I mean, you didn't have a business background. And, and you've, you've talked about how it's all just been very organic. And I know you're longing for some, some business leadership to join the operation. And we'll, we'll. We'll talk about that because we're going to do a public outreach for that John.
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John Darien
In 2025.
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Dennis Scully
Yeah, that's because, I mean, this is, this is a sprawling operation and I'm, and I want people to really understand. I mean, you're, you're a wholesaler, you've got a shop in Bergdorf Goodman, you've got a shop in Japan, you've got, I mean, you've got a lot of things going on and, and numerous collaborations. Right. You, you do a furniture line with Cisco Home, if I recall.
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John Darien
Yep. Cisco Brothers. Yeah.
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Dennis Scully
Yeah. And.
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John Darien
And I stayed up a lot in Paris. I do. I've been collaborating with them for like 10 years. Selling their things for like 20. Collaborating for 10. We're friends. I love those guys. We have fun. It's nice to see my things on plates so you can actually use them. Because I am also kind of user friendly. So that's kind of fun. Yeah. And then designer skill. I have a line of wallpapers and fabrics. And then Pierre Fray in Paris did a wallpaper that I loved. They reproduced one and that was, that was fun to have. And then often on the last bunch of years, I've been doing things with Target, like these in and out programs. And those have been great too. It's just fun, you know, I guess I sort of obsessed about the imagery that I find and that's what inspires me and what pushes me to do these things and share things with people. And the Target thing was great because I got to share things with a wider audience. And I think we all relate to the images that I use because their own natural history. And people think, oh, I like boats, I like flowers, I like fish, I like animals. So there's something kind of for everyone to relate to. And I think there's something kind about all of it too. There's like a, there's a niceness to it. Like you can relate to those things. And there's like spooky and scary things too, that people like when I had my reps for 12 years, we'd meet twice a year to do shows and they're like, no, no brats, no. Birds. No. And like, no, I like rats and bugs and birds. I would just do it and then they would sell and then I would be like, I don't know what. Something just kept me going the whole time where I sort of believed in myself somehow, that all this, that I, you know, I, I was going the right way, on the right path. But I don't know how. I don't really know how I got that. Sometimes I'm like, I feel like I didn't really get that much encouragement, but somehow I just kept doing things I didn't. I wasn't worried about anything. I wasn't worried about my career. I didn't have a career. I was planning. But all these things just kept happening. And then one day I was like, oh, look, I have a store and a business. And it wasn't, it just wasn't planned.
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Dennis Scully
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John Darien
That's true, yes. But, yeah, then 2008 happened and everything kind of crashed and they decided not to invest in companies. But in the end, I was glad it didn't work out because I can still get to do all the things I want to do.
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Dennis Scully
But she had, she had discovered you at one point and I remember seeing footage of you chatting with her on tv and it was pretty amusing and it sounds like it was serious, the conversation. But then, as you say, the financial crisis came and.
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John Darien
Yeah, we talked financials. I met with her team. Yeah, I was on her show a couple times and she was supportive of all the things I did. And, you know, I think that she appreciates what I kind of bring to the world and sort of.
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Dennis Scully
Well, and Anna Wintour, as you said, seems like she was.
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John Darien
I feel like she instrumental and helped in a way. Maybe she doesn't even know she did, but she was, she's been a great big support.
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Dennis Scully
So it grew out of the, out of the shops and the, and the partnerships, and it sounds like there's a lot of investments that you wish you could make. On the technology side of the business and maybe some of the infrastructure.
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John Darien
Right. Like, I think I had said to you that I would say, like, five years ago, I sort of really thought about what the word margins meant. I wasn't quite sure we would talk at these meetings, and I was like, explain margins again. You know, like, currently, right now, we have 30,000 Christmas ornaments in the middle store. I mean, we've sold a bunch, so we don't have 30,000. That's how many we ordered. So we have all the inventories in all the three stores and the stuff that we sell online and things that I have in our shop in Provincetown is all in my head in case we don't have a point of sale system. That was. That was the thing. That was very funny.
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Dennis Scully
Well, no, I know. I found it remarkable. Remarkable that you don't have a point of sales system. I can't even wrap my head around that. So what does that mean? How are you doing all these transactions? Like, how. What.
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John Darien
What's a pen and a piece of paper, you know, and a sales book, you know, it's all numbers, even my staff. I'll be like, oh, they'll send me something. I'm like, can you print that catalog for me and put on my desk? I just have to look at the piece of paper. I have to touch the paper, look at the paper for everything. It's kind of. Kind of crazy. Like, right now I have paper and pen in front of me just because I need to write something. Yeah, I was a terrible student though, too, because I couldn't really. If I wrote the information down, I would miss something by not looking. And if I looked and didn't write it down, I would miss something. So I never really got anything. I got it always, like, the gist of things. Never, like, wait, I never knew how to take notes and things. But I still like paper and I still appreciate and work on paper. I. I would say, like, maybe in late 90s, we got a computer. I had this friend who showed up from Boston who could do all these things. She's like, oh, yeah, I worked. I could ship in ups. She could do all the things that I needed someone to be able to do. And then she kind of computerized us. And then suddenly it was like I was separate. I was, like, locked out of the company a little bit because I didn't have to deal with any of those things that caused some, like, tension for, what, 30 years now. So anyone that works for me, that knows me, knows that I'm really Bad with all those things. Like, in my production studio is where we, like, print invoices and make pack, do all that stuff there, which somebody else does. Currently, I don't have a studio manager.
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Dennis Scully
So if anybody else is looking, it's another job.
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John Darien
Another job. That one just makes me like, my brain just shuts down when I get over there because I'm like, I don't know how to do any of these things. Like, in the beginning, I would think this is handwritten, but the stores are I could deal with because it's still pretty basic. Basic math.
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Dennis Scully
That's the part that people will marvel at, that the business has grown to this scale without the existence of a point of sale system or a lot of structure. But it sounds as though we may be on the precipice of all of that changing in the coming year.
- [25:18]
John Darien
Yes, I think. Yeah. You know, it's so funny. When we had our first target meeting in 2008, or seven or eight, we met them in New York at their. An office. And it was just my agent friend Stephanie and I. We got there and it was this giant room with, like, I don't know, 35 seats and stuff. They were like, we're not sure how big your team is. I was like, well, it's me. And when people reach out to the store and they want to talk to, like, somebody in charge something, it's like, that's me. Or like when somebody calls on the phone that, you know, didn't want to pay the shipping on something was mad the ship, it didn't get there on time. We're like, they want to speak to the. Whatever they call it, like, somebody high up, an official. Like, it's still me, you know, like, I'm. Somebody came in the other day. They're like, do you choose all these things in the store? I was like, yes. And then you put all these things in the store? Yes. I'm like, there's so many things in the store that people are just. I don't know, they were just like, going like, oh, who's your buyer? Me. Who's your visual person? Me. Who's. Who's the one running this? Anyways, it is. I have to say, these last 10 years have been a little tougher. In the last five years, just because there's been a sort of generational change and a shift in kind of our work ethics, which has been. Took a while to work my brain around. I have a nice team now, but it's been different. And last five years have been harder. Thanks To Covid, because some of the managers didn't come back. And then it was just starting from scratch again. And then sort of slowly working as a team and being like, we're on the same page. Even when I have staff meetings. We have staff meetings every Wednesday. I wanted to say to them, you guys, I'm just like you. I'm like, it's like you suddenly became this. Like, sometimes they just. It's a really small company and a nice group of people, but I don't know. It's like when you have parents and they're somehow. There are these gods that can do no wrong, and then you just have so much respect for them, blah, blah. And then you realize, oh, they're just people. Later in life, you realize, oh, they're just people. Sometimes I want my staff to be like, help me out here. I'm just a person like you. And when we. We got back together after Covid, I just treated every. Like, we're all on the same page right now. Like, I'm just a person like you. Like, it's not like there's this higher up anywhere. I am. I am the higher up. But.
- [27:19]
Dennis Scully
Yes, yes. No, no, no. It sounds like you're a great, great many things within the but. And we're going to work. We're going to work on that. Man. I am making this my mission to staff you up in the. In the coming year. I mean, when this conversation's over, I'm, like, getting to work on that.
- [27:34]
John Darien
The keyboard. Well, not the keyboard. The. The lights are gonna be flashing on me or whatever your thing is.
- [27:39]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. It's gonna be nonstop. But take me back. Just fill in the blanks for me with the Target, how that came about. You had an agent, right, who was my friend.
- [27:49]
John Darien
Stephanie Pesicoff. Worked for Art department, or does work for Art department. And she is an agent for illustrators. And she was doing a project with Target, and they were working with one of her illustrators. And I think something came up in the meeting, and she said, how about John Derrien? And so that's how that happened. It was really a fun thing because they reached out and then suddenly we had this, you know, kind of contract for X amount of items. It was called an in and out program where I would just be in the shops for a short period and that would be it. So I didn't really think it would, like, affect the customers that I sold to and the kind of product they already made that was handmade in New York and sold to stores. This would be Stuff that I would design that they would make elsewhere in the world. And then it would be, you know, similar looking things but for a very different price. And I remember it was really fun because I recreated all the products that I thought in all the categories I thought would work so much that they added two whole more groups of categories on, because I created these things I didn't expect and no one had ever come to them. And handmade samples, because I made picture frames, I made waist barrels, I just did all these things thinking that's what I was supposed to do. So when I got there, they were kind of blown away. And then we end up enlarging the collection and it sold really well and they were really happy. Then they were like two years later, like we wanted to. Even though we don't do in and outs with the same people, we want to do it with you again, which was great. So I did it again and that was popular. And then that was part of their anniversary. They kind of repeated some of those things, but then it's been doing really well. And I guess because people know my name and trust me in some ways that it's. It works. But it's just me because I'm just old school that I'm like, you're gonna buy that online and spend money and you don't even touch it or see it. And it's just the norm. But, you know, we have. I feel like we're in a line culture right now. Maybe in New York City, but, you know, because of the Christmas ornament store, I have. We have lines throughout the weekend, all day. And we like to win two out. Two in, two out to in it. And I ran for the couple years of COVID You know, we did the line thing too, because we want to keep the store down to like 10 people or 12 people.
- [29:50]
Dennis Scully
Right?
- [29:51]
John Darien
Which actually in the end was a great learning experience because it really did give. Allowed the people that were in the store to have a better experience shopping. Not. Not just to be able to move around the store and look at things and not have it be so crowded. So the lines, they stress me out because people wait all day and then they come up to me at the end, they find me and they're like, thank you so much for everything you do. I'm like, you just waited in line for 25 minutes and now you're thanking me. I don't get it.
- [30:14]
Dennis Scully
Well, they're willing to wait. Yeah, yeah, no, no, they. They want. They want to be part of that experience. Exactly. And they I think that's part of it. When did the ornaments come into the business? Because I think people associate so much of that with you, but that wasn't what you were doing at all. When did it show up?
- [30:33]
John Darien
It was just one of those things that, again, it just happened, and I went with it. I didn't really think about it. I just kept getting more and more ornaments, and I was like, am I not allowing my regular customers to shop for Christmas? Because suddenly the stores were filled with trees and other people shopping for ornaments. And then I just started getting more and more pressed for the array of ornaments that I have, because I like all kinds of things and weird things. It's my. It is the 11th year I've had a mushroom tree, but it's just gotten bigger and bigger and bigger every year, so. And the people that make the mushroom ornaments keep making more and more varieties. So I just keep going with it. And even I'm like, am I losing business in the other stores? Like, I just kept going with it, not really thinking. And then suddenly I have this big ornament business. You know, we have three stores in a row, and the middle one's furniture and has. It says furniture on the door, right? Which I probably should just scrape off. And it was closed for two years because it was our shipping facility during COVID And then I reopened it. I would just watch no one go in there at all during the Christmas season. And so then two years ago, I was like, next year, I'm going to try. Maybe I'll do the store as Chris as make this store an ornament store. And I did. It's been like, eureka night and day moment, because people shop freely in the other two stores. And then the ornament store becomes the ornament store, and people have this experience, and they go into the other store. So I. I did go to a dinner once. Somewhere uptown, a woman was talking to me, and I said, oh, yeah, the store. This was like. Like, in the spring, somebody said. She went, oh, you have that Christmas shop. I was like, it's not a Christmas shop when people say that. And in the first store, people would come in and just be like, is there a Christmas shop while you're on? I was like, no. They're like, what else do you sell? And I'd be like, look down. Because, like, every. Every. There'd be. There'd be like, 12 trees in the store with different themes, like, in the middle of all the other stuff I sell. And I asked my bookkeeper. Last year, I was like, can we figure out if this is working? Because even though we don't really know, she's like just a number. Make money from Christmas because it is a lot of work. And then also as a small company, it's like in with Amazon out there. Like, people order things, they think they want them, they want them like the next day. They want the shipping to be free. And it's like, I have like two guys shipping and I have to pay them, like insurance and all those things. Like, we try to give free shipping for certain amounts, but some things we can't. And people get irritated. And I'm like, I'm sorry. You know, I just wish we could be that and do that, but we can't. Anyways, like, last weekend I was kind of stressed. I was like, how do we get all this stuff shipped out? Because as a small company, we have like 126 orders on Monday of just ordinance. And that means that's 126 boxes, and that's two guys. And then there's also the studio that has decoupaged and things that have to get sent to stores. And then there's other stuff. So sometimes there's a little bit of a bottleneck. We stopped guaranteeing shipping on Friday, so then I'm sort of out of that. So we're just now trying to get everything shipped out. So it's out.
- [33:14]
Dennis Scully
Right.
- [33:15]
John Darien
I want everyone to be happy and people are like, can I expedite it? It's like, yeah, but there's already like 10 people ahead of you, so you're not going to get. They all have to get shipped before you get shipped. So as a small company, that. That is a little bit of a snag. But I'm trying to figure out, like, how do you make that work? So it's. People get things faster and not be Amazon and, I don't know, bigger shipping facility, I guess.
- [33:35]
Dennis Scully
Well, that's part of the big growth plan for 2025.
- [33:38]
John Darien
It is, yeah. Right. Yeah. So I have to say, these last couple years, I've just been like, a little bit at wit's end. Like, I can't think of. I can't do any more people, like, have a shop in California. I was like, yeah, you want to run it or have it up here? Do you want to. You want to run it? I just can't. Since I do everything, I can't really do much more is kind of how it's been. So I did meet with this woman named dawn who talked to me every Wednesday about Business so I could ask her about business questions. This was like a year ago.
- [34:03]
Dennis Scully
Well, and I love that you were doing this and you were having zoom calls with her. Right. And just discussing business and learning. And she had. It sounds like she had quite a few ideas.
- [34:12]
John Darien
Yeah. And she was also, you know, not shaming. Very nice and positive and supportive. Yeah. Yes. We got to the point where maybe I needed a COO to start and then she hooked me up with a headhunter and then I met with headhunter people and they were super nice. And that was last December. But then a lot happened. Finances were not the best place because I had over ordered with the white pottery that I sell from France because they expanded their company. I didn't realize it. And they all of a sudden, all the things that we ordered, which usually takes six months to a year to get camera monthly. And I was like, then I had to build shelves and I was like, what's happening? And I realized that they were just shipping faster. And anyway, so I. We're a little bit low on cash, but now everything's fine. So I just reached out to them a couple weeks ago to get that rolling again. But I don't know. I don't know. I never had anybody else around. Like I had a partner two for years who was in fashion and he was in a really great place. Business was great, blah, blah, blah. They just need investors and they didn't get investors. And just the company ended. But it's weird because it was all good and positive. People do will reach out to me and say, oh, can we ever. Would you ever talk to me about. Sometimes I'm like, I have nothing to teach you about business. Just like believe in what you do. And sometimes I'll say, like, if you have the chance, money does help because, you know, it took me when I started the company, I had X amount of dollars and I opened the store and I had like four antiques and some a bunch of plates. But then I would sell a few of the antiques and have enough money to buy some nicer antiques. You know, like if you start with more money, then you could maybe start with nicer things right away.
- [35:41]
Dennis Scully
We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Leloy, whose newest introductions for all styles included new collections from collaborators Amber Lewis, Magnolia Home by Joanna Gaines and Rifle Paper company Plus newly added one of a kind rugs, pillows and wall art. Visit loloy rugs.com to see them all. That's L O L O I rugs.com and laloyloyrugs on Instagram and TikTok. And now back to the show. A lot of people on the outside think it's a much bigger business or there's a lot more structure and layers to it. So I think people are going to hear this and they're going to start reaching out to you, John, both with investments and wanting to help and support. Because I think, look at how successful it's been with just you imagine if we could really get you a team and could get you a chief operating officer and some stronger financial controls and that inventory control to make sure all those white plates aren't arriving all at once. Yeah, no, no, no. All, all of that. But, but can you imagine for yourself giving a lot of that up? I mean, you joke about how cranky you are all the time because you're doing it all, but I mean, would you really want to give up a lot of it?
- [37:11]
John Darien
I do think yes, there are things that I would like to be doing. It's so funny. I mean, you know, I have a friend, my friend Joanne Rusman, who I'm a dear friend, I've known for 40 years now. She's like 83 and has a shop in Boston and I was looking for new leases and I'm like, I need a 20 year lease. And I was like, well, in 20 years I'll be 82 or something. And. And she's 83, so she's still going, so that's fine. And I, I don't really think about stopping and I still like all the aspects that I do. I just feel like I could use help with running it all better. So I'm not either because at my age, people are retiring and I'm still thinking like 20 years down the line, like, I'm still like, oh, in 20 years I'll still be doing this. Like, it's all, I like it. So I don't, I don't plan on stopping it. But then sometimes to let go of those things, I wonder what I will be like letting go of. It's never really been about money making, obviously, because I never think about it. But like, even like I maybe had said to you, I designed our first printed shopping bag with an image. And my friend's like, great, where's your name? And I was like, it's on the side. And he's like, why is it on the side? I said, because if I put it on that thing, it would interrupt the image. The image is prettier to me than my name on the bag. So My name was on the side of the bag. So it's always been about beauty and sharing and not really thinking like, if I do this, I'm going to make this and if I do that, that hasn't been my goal.
- [38:27]
Dennis Scully
That's a bigger end goal for most people than it is for you.
- [38:32]
John Darien
But then it's sort of like at this point in my life and all the work I've been doing, like if you, if I did want to sell my company or something, then I would definitely need to point a sale system and maybe some more stores to make it look like we've got, you know, a lot going on.
- [38:45]
Dennis Scully
Well, let's talk about your second book because it is, it is out now and it's a, a lovely holiday gift. In fact, if, if I remember correctly, you, you'd prefer people buy multiple books at a time. So they could, they could cut up one, right, but, but still have a, a perfect one or two on, on the shelf. Yes.
- [39:06]
John Darien
Yeah, I don't really, I mean, I could say you could, I think ideally buy three and then you have one that it just stays intact and it's beautiful and you can look at forever. And then the other two, you can just take a part. Because all of the images that I use that are 18th and 19th century were from books originally and they were from instructive books. It's all pre photography, so it's how the world learned about things. So it's a book on roses, a book on animals, a book on ships and food. And so when I put the first book back together, I thought it was kind of fun that everything came from a book. Now it's back in a book. But then since I used it out of a book, I was encouraging people to take apart the books and do things with them. And some people, well papered rooms. And then a couple years later I did the sticker book which is, you know, it's a mini version of the big book, but they're stickers, so. And that's been sort of mind boggling too because it's a hardcover book. It looks really beautiful and you look just like a book. You can't see the die cut lines so you don't even know it's a sticker book. I've had people return it because they thought it wasn't a sticker book. I had an editor once call me to say how beautiful the book was and how much she loved it, but why was it called the sticker book? And I was like, they're stickers. So it was fun. And now we're doing the next book, which is more of the images that I, that I've, I have in my archive and I'm very excited about it. Came out beautifully. And also my publisher, Artisan and Leo was like, said yes to everything I did.
- [40:25]
Dennis Scully
And, and interestingly, apropos of our earlier conversation, I noticed that Frances McDormand uses the reference Wunderkamern in her, in her intro in the book. Oh my God.
- [40:36]
John Darien
Right? Yes. Yeah. Of all the people. She's so lovely and has such an amazing presence. And the first time she came in the store, I was like, oh my God, I can't believe she's in my store. Like, we meet lots of people and. But she's just something very special about her. And she reached out like maybe two years ago and called the store and had me call her back just to say how much she and her husband loved the book. Book. And they, they open the book to each other and they open it to a page and share like, you know, they kind of are telling each other things through the book and they love it, blah, blah, blah. So when I thought about the forward, I just reached out and said, would you like to write the forward? And she said yes. And I was so happy that she did. I forgot about that word because when you said that word earlier, I was like, what is that word?
- [41:18]
Dennis Scully
Yes. And there it is. And she, she, she loves it. She, she refers to cabinets of curiosity, of arts and marvels and a modern day Wunderkamern. So, I mean, there you are. I feel like this is a little bit of fate and destiny happening right here. And I love that she writes that she will just keep it open to a page and just have that image to admire. I mean, it seems to bring so much pleasure. And it's funny, you were talking earlier about people thinking you're a Christmas shop, people thinking you're this holiday store. And when I, when I mentioned that I was going to be talking to you people, oh, it's so perfect for the holidays. You could be talking to John Darien as if, as if you're Santa or something.
- [42:00]
John Darien
I have to say, I've become Mr. Christmas in the last few years. And when people want to see my Christmas tree, it's basically a Charlie Brown Christmas tree that's vintage, that has like basically Charlie Brown old broken glass ornaments on it. There's an article at the time last year that Chris wrote that was great. Brought a lot of people to the store for more people to the store for Christmas that's when I thought, like, what else could one anyone write about who's written about the store, Christmas store. But somehow his writing was great and we got given a lot more.
- [42:32]
Dennis Scully
You're Mr. Christmas, even though you don't think that at all.
- [42:34]
John Darien
And, I mean, I love the holidays and I love decorations and I love celebrating, but.
- [42:39]
Dennis Scully
Well, I'm not going to ask you your favorite holiday traditions, John. We're not going to do that. Okay, we're not doing that. But what are they? I do well.
- [42:47]
John Darien
No, just kidding.
- [42:49]
Dennis Scully
No, no. But what I am curious about. And listen, when we're done, let's find out what the profit margins are on this Christmas business. Because my worry is that this huge part of your business doesn't have good margins. Right? I mean, I don't know, it takes.
- [43:05]
John Darien
A lot more than anyone would ever imagine. Just.
- [43:08]
Dennis Scully
Well, that's the thing.
- [43:08]
John Darien
Even pricing the ornaments, because it's a little string tag that's handwritten 30,000 times or 15,000 times, because half of the ornaments get tagged and go to the store, and the other half are online without tags.
- [43:21]
Dennis Scully
What I'm curious about, in sort of wrapping up the conversation. Hilarious that you were Mr. Christmas, even accidentally. But have you seen an evolution or a stylistic change over time? Have you seen things that are interesting of note in the whole holiday decorating world?
- [43:45]
John Darien
I definitely think there's been a lot more. Well, I was just making a wider range of choices and a funnier range of choices and weirder or scarier or whatever, but I kind of pushed all those themes. So we have a bug tree, a sea life tree, a classic tree, a mushroom tree, a bird tree, a scary tree, a world travel tree, a flower tree. So these are all the themes that I just keep focusing on. And then, of course, the dog tree was not. Was a disappointment this year because everybody. Cat people will buy a cat thing and dog people want their dogs. So if that means you need to have, like 100 different kinds of dogs to have a tree of dogs to be successful, which is a lot to invest in. And it was the. One of our vendors couldn't produce them in time, so we had to cancel that because it was like, we can get either dogs, but not till, like, November. And it was, like, kind of too late. So every day I have somebody asking for their dog and like, sorry, no dogs. Sorry. We only have those dogs. But what's cool about it is that it's a way for people to connect to a thing that connects to a friend. And it's such fun Gift giving because I had somebody come in the store one day like four years ago. They were like, do you have anything for an electrician? And I was like, I've got a screwdriver ornament. It's like a hand blown glass ornament. It's a screwdriver. That's a paint it. Even with my work, sometimes I feel like people started collecting it and then hanging it and telling their own story by the things they chose. And with the trees too, you're. You're doing a whole array of things with things that you like. So it's not just a round ball that's pink or silver or gold. You suddenly have choices and there are more and more choices. Like the mushroom tree. I just can't get over how beautiful they are. And they're like specimens and they're so beautifully painted and so magical. And I think mushrooms are such a fascinating thing and so do other people. Like I have to say, the mushroom tr. Really is. People are really fascinated by it because there's something mysterious about them too. But just in terms of the trends, yes. I think there's more funny and comical and weird ornaments. And there are a lot that are like, people like, there are ornaments that like, there's an end of winter ornament. There's a, you know, famous. I don't get any of those. I just like more inanimate things. Sorry, I don't think that's. Sometimes I don't think it's so nice to do those, even though they're not that mean. But I'd rather have something prettier. And it's. Some of it. I think it is all beautiful. And I'm so. I am fascinated by all. I do have a passion for all of it. It's just something when I turn around, I'm like, oh wait, I have 30,000 ornaments in here. Like, I went, oops, maybe I ordered too many. But then we, it's. You'll. It's shocking that suddenly like, oh, it was sold so much. Like we do the back room and hang on these wires, all the backstock, which is like a whole nother thing in itself. It is really beautiful. And then you think we'll never get through it. And then it's almost all out of the back room right now. So it's almost all on the floor. So it's okay. We have got a week.
- [46:30]
Dennis Scully
Exactly. And so it's all going to sell out and lines going out the door. I mean, that's the amazing thing. So you talked earlier that I mean, again, if you had the resources, if you had the structure, if there was someone helping you, if I had a.
- [46:45]
John Darien
Business background to plan. Any of it. Yeah, all those things.
- [46:49]
Dennis Scully
If you had an mba. All of those things, yes. What of the many things that you've done? And I mean, the partnerships that you've had? I mean, didn't you do something with Todd Snyder? Didn't you do something.
- [47:00]
John Darien
Oh, yeah, I did some fun things with Todd Snyder, and I did some things with Stubs and Wooten, the little embroidered shoe company. And those were fun slippers you did, I think the slipper. Yeah. And that. That was fun. And they were. People loved them. It's. Again, it's just about, like, editing and finding the images. And my friend Lori had a store on Elizabeth street called She S H I. I'm only like, three blocks away, but she came to my store and bought, like, would order, like, the six things in her store and the way they were presented and looked, I was like, I would have bought this. Like, I was like, how does that look? This good here? Pulled away from that. Like, she. It's all about editing.
- [47:36]
Dennis Scully
What would you want to do? What. What are you longing to do? That if you. If you had the time and if you had the resources that you. That you would want to. To explore.
- [47:48]
John Darien
Yeah. It's funny that you ask that, because I think, like, I'm doing everything I want to be doing, but I think sometimes I think I could be doing things at a different pace, maybe, and not that I really want to slow down because some astrologer last year told me I was a chaos monkey. And then I was like, oh, I guess maybe I am. Because if I just slow down, would that be good? Would I just fall asleep? I don't know. So I don't know.
- [48:14]
Dennis Scully
Chaos monkey.
- [48:15]
John Darien
Not quite sure. Okay. Okay. You know juggling a lot. Always.
- [48:19]
Dennis Scully
Yeah. No, no, clearly. And I was saddened by the. By the closing of Tender Buttons. And I was. And I was thinking about you. Right.
- [48:28]
John Darien
Yeah. There was two stores in California that just closed. One was Bellachio, which was amazing. And then one was called Tale of the act that was there for 40 years. And I. And I hadn't been there in, like, 30 years. And I went, like, a couple years ago, and I was like. It was the same wonderful, beautiful experience. I feel like I walked into a snow globe. You know, like the ceiling and the walls and everything's covered with. You just kind of go through the space and you kind of want to buy everything. You want to touch Everything and be part of it all. And that's gone too. And it's. It's sad. And people are thankful that I'm around and they have this store that has these things. And sometimes I just like, oh, right. Some. I don't really think about it as being this magical place, but then I, you know, I do love it. So I guess it's a magical place. People are coming to it.
- [49:06]
Dennis Scully
Well, in, In. In closing, John, you. You said earlier that you laugh a little when people ask you for. For business advice or. Or career advice because you. You feel that it's all happened for you just so accidentally or organically. Yes, yes. I mean, it's. It's clearly come from your passion and your. And your heart. And you're clearly so thoughtful about it. I mean, what do you think has been meaningful about what you've learned through. Through all of this that you could impart?
- [49:45]
John Darien
I do think sort of what you just said about believing in yourself and what you love and what you want to share. And I think if it's. If you get it down to that place, then that's how to move forward. Move forward with that is the best thing to do. Sometimes I ask people what they did as kids. I kind of do that regularly. Like, somebody's struggling and unclear. I'm like, what did you do when you were a kid? And they're like, this and this and this. I was like, oh, interesting. Because I feel like I've been doing the same thing my whole life. So it does help sometimes to look at what was. Because I feel like we're so formed by an earlier age than we realize. And then you wonder about how we lose sight of that. But anyway, so with people I just say, just do what you love to do and just believe in yourself. And even, like, it's like fine art. Like, you can pass a gallery and you can see, like, two tubes on the ground, and that's someone's art. And you're like, if you believe in it, then that's the reality of it. Like, if you're an artist and that's your art and you believe in it, there's no question to it.
- [50:49]
Dennis Scully
You know, we grow up and we. And we lose touch with our childhood self. Right. For a host of reasons and responsibilities get thrust upon us or we just get pulled in a direction. And I feel like part of the joy of your work is that you're so in touch with who you were as a child, even though I know sometimes you felt lonely or you felt like people weren't understanding you as much as you might have. Might have liked. But it kept you open to all of this creativity and all these passions that you hold so dear. And you've come to discover that people love all the things that you're sharing with them. Right?
- [51:31]
John Darien
Well, people ask me sometimes, I'll just say I'm 13 years old on the inside. Like, sometimes I'm like, I'm talking to people and I'm like. Like, as if I'm an adult. And sometimes I'll look, I'll be talking things. Oh, they're listening to me. Oh, they're. And I'm just a kid. I don't know. Sometimes I'm not sure if that's, like, something I need to see more years of therapy about or that's okay, you know, But I think I am kind of in touch with that. And I like wonder and magical things, and so I think that comes out somehow.
- [51:59]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, you've been able to hold onto it. And in a way, I think it's your greatest gift. And I think it's why, when I asked people to come up with the two words, so many people chose joyous and joyful as one of the words. Because I think that comes from you, and you make them feel that. So I'm thrilled to get to talk to you. I know you're Mr. Christmas, so it was a busy time. So, I mean, you know, you got to get back to the workshop, but you're so kind to make the time to talk with me.
- [52:29]
John Darien
Yeah, it was great talking with you. Thank you.
- [52:32]
Dennis Scully
Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line@podcastusinessofhome.com if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus and edited by Fraser McCullough. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and we'll be back with you on Thursday.