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Business of Home Podcast
Alison Berger's superpower is persistence
01:03:14
The celebrated artist, architect and lighting designer shares the story of her career
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- [00:04]
Dennis Scully
This is Business of Home. I'm your host Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is Alison Berger, artist, architect, designer and glassblower. For years, Alison honed her craft, showing her work and collaborating with brands like Commes des Garcons and Hermes. Then in the late 1990s she began designing lighting for Holly Hunt, kicking off a multi decade partnership that would see Alison become one of the industry's most celebrated talents. I spoke with Alison about why she decided to work with rh, why her superpower is persistence, and why she's back with a new collection, new showroom partners and a new approach to her work. This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta, your destination for designer quality custom size rugs with a curated assortment of timeless colors, patterns and textures. Ernesta will deliver the right size rug in the style your client wants in only two to four weeks. And with Ernesta's exclusive trade membership benefits, you can get dedicated support, free unlimited samples and special discounts to help you achieve your clients design goals. To join Ernesto's trade program, visit ernesto.com boh this podcast is also sponsored by Krypton Designers looking for a premier domestic upholstery vendor that offers concierge service, complementary crypton fabric samples and dedicated project assistants are invited to explore Row Furniture's exceptional trade program. Customize your perfect piece with crypton fabrics in an array of stunning colors and styles, seamlessly blending beauty, durability and comfort with Rose Trade Program, you can anticipate a truly stress free experience. Each piece of furniture is meticulously hand inspected and photos of your customized orders are sent before shipping, ensuring you stay informed without any hassle. And pricing includes freight to your receiver, simplifying the ordering process. For more information about the program, visit rowfurniture.com join and now on with the show.
- [02:44]
Alison Berger
So just because you and I were talking recently and the subject of fire and a young person's fascination with fire. So I grew up in Manhattan in a lovely Manhattan apartment with my very loving parents who who weren't home one afternoon and I was fooling around with a lovely Christmas wreath in my parents apartment and it was way past Christmas when this was happening so I didn't realize this but that wreath was pretty dry. Yeah, pretty pretty dry at the time and I may Allison have set fire to that Christmas wreath.
- [03:27]
Dennis Scully
So the wreath wreath falls into the.
- [03:29]
Alison Berger
Window and then fire very quickly climbs up the wall.
- [03:33]
Unknown
Oh no.
- [03:33]
Alison Berger
And my friend Arthur and I were literally with Stock pots, filling the bathtub with water and running down the hallway to put the fire out. While we were also telling each other how much we loved each other. And if we don't make it through, like we were so glad to be friends and we were just felt so lucky. Then we did ultimately get the fire out at the very moment my father is literally turning the key in the door and walking into the apartment. And Alison, I mean the place just looked like char. There was no right. There was no way to pretend that there hadn't just been a great big fire in the entrance way of my parents very, very pristine apartment. My parents apartment was just basically kindling the whole place.
- [04:20]
Unknown
What a story. Love it.
- [04:22]
Alison Berger
I have never shared that with anyone, but I share it with you because I feel as though you might also have a story of your own sometime that there might have been. Feel free to share.
- [04:37]
Unknown
I'd love to share. I was melting candles in the kitchen and thinking I'd like to make candles, but I don't know, maybe I'm like 12 years old. And then I left the kitchen because why would I pay attention to a pot of melting wax? And we lived in a house that had like a horseshoe configuration so you could look across the hallway back into the kitchen. And I noticed that there was like blazing fire coming out of the pots that I was melting wax because I'm not paying attention. And then my brother and I rush into the kitchen and throw water on the wax, which as we know, makes it more flammable.
- [05:16]
Alison Berger
Right.
- [05:17]
Unknown
Of course my parents were out of town and all the wallpaper, which at the time in the 70s was like the ceiling was wallpapered because that was what you did. And like that was really hard to hide from them when they came back from vacation.
- [05:34]
Alison Berger
So what did you do? I mean, it's just like this is what happened.
- [05:37]
Unknown
Like you should probably, should go away.
- [05:39]
Alison Berger
Probably should not leave me alone.
- [05:42]
Unknown
Clearly the people watching us, the lesson, leaving us.
- [05:45]
Alison Berger
Yeah.
- [05:45]
Unknown
And it was, it was just like, yeah, it's a miracle that the house didn't burn down.
- [05:50]
Alison Berger
Now you, you, unlike me, you were able to brilliantly harness this fascination into an artistic endeavor that later would lead to this remarkable career that you've had. But it seemed as though, I mean, and you can tell me, but I mean it seemed as though you were drawn to this as a young person and your parents could, could see this. Were there precautions that had to be taken? Were there, were there steps for you?
- [06:21]
Unknown
No. I mean, I think after the kitchen incident and then you Know, a handful of years later, when I, you know, found glassblowing, they were like, thank God she'll take it out of the house. Because I was like, they were relieved. I'm like, okay, she's getting her fill at the glass shop.
- [06:39]
Alison Berger
And. And remind me, there was some story, if I recall you on a bicycle at 15, right, going by.
- [06:46]
Unknown
Yeah.
- [06:46]
Alison Berger
O.
- [06:47]
Unknown
Like, riding around, you know, the neighborhood and somehow coming across, like, a funky glassblowing studio. I saw through the fence, fire, of course. Right. I'm like, oh, cool. You thought daytime fire let me in. Daytime fire. What is this? And I literally, like, you know, propped my bike against the fence, you know, pulled myself over the fence and looked through. And then it was like a stained glass studio where they were blowing glass. And I walked in the back and I was like, hi, I'm a kid. What are you guys doing? And somehow they started teaching me, you know, probably because I didn't leave them alone.
- [07:25]
Alison Berger
And ultimately you went off to school and. Remind me, was it anthropology originally that you were.
- [07:31]
Unknown
Yeah, I mean, I went to, you know, I went to school, Denver University, and was studying anthropology. You know, I went to study cultural anthropology. And, I mean, I just. I don't know how the universe puts things in front of you. And I saw, like, a. I don't know, at the elevator, like, a flyer for glass blowing. And I was like, oh, I'd like to go do that. And so I started going to this studio outside of the college, having nothing to do with the college. And finally, the guys who owned that. Who owned that studio were like, aren't you supposed to be in school? And I was like, yeah, they're like, you are here all the time. You know, you can go to school for this actually Rhode island school design. Like, maybe you should do that because you're, like, not doing what you're supposed to be doing.
- [08:19]
Alison Berger
You're not actually going to your own.
- [08:21]
Unknown
Classes, and you're here all the time.
- [08:24]
Alison Berger
Well, and what had led you to anthropology? Was somebody in the family or was it a curiosity?
- [08:30]
Unknown
Yeah, just such a curiosity about culture and objects that societies use and rituals and why people, you know, were drawn to certain things.
- [08:40]
Alison Berger
So tell me how you end up. I mean, so you look into that.
- [08:43]
Unknown
I look into that, and I apply and I put. You know, because I was also doing some art classes in college, and I put together a portfolio, and, you know, I got accepted.
- [08:53]
Alison Berger
So tell me about that.
- [08:54]
Unknown
I mean, it was just such a, you know, this. This idea that, like, you create and it's fun And. And you just do it because it feels good. Turned into like, you better have a reason. You better be able to speak about it articulately. And it didn't diminish the enjoyment for me. It actually elevated it to be able to speak of it in such an autocritical way. And it's such a serious school. You don't really have a college experience there. People are there to work, and it was real. It was like, we are teaching you to become professionals, and this is no different than going to medical school. And that's how you're going to be trained. And it's between skill and technique, but also this ability to think. Can you describe in a meaningful way what's motivating you to show us what you're showing us?
- [09:52]
Alison Berger
And were you able to do that?
- [09:55]
Unknown
No. I got shredded so many times. Like, no. It's like, no. I mean, over years you become better at it. But it was. Is like, horrifying and sickening.
- [10:05]
Alison Berger
Just because they intimidate you into learning.
- [10:08]
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah, okay. You get. You completely, like. And then you just watch your friends get bombarded, and you're just like, oh, my God, like, that was horrible. And you just. Over time, you get more confident and you learn to speak what's most true for you. And I think that has just served me so well in my career. I can't imagine not being able to share what I see and bring other people into the story.
- [10:35]
Alison Berger
Well, so. And in the beginning, were you just, look, I'm here for the glassblowing. I'm just here for the experience, dude. I mean, what's.
- [10:43]
Unknown
I mean, in the beginning, I was shell shocked. I was like, yeah, I had to do as much deep thinking as you can do at that young age. I had to go really inward and find what was most true for myself.
- [10:53]
Alison Berger
Well, and so tell me what that means. So what was most true for yourself.
- [10:57]
Dennis Scully
Or what is most true?
- [10:59]
Unknown
That this. This deep desire to create is such a huge motivator, and if that was the place where I had to learn how to do it, I couldn't live my life not being able to create. And that's what I started, you know, And I'm working a job and it's, you know, a regular job, and I was like, oh, there's not even time in the day to create. I started to feel really depleted. And I was like, oh, being creative gives my life a great purpose.
- [11:27]
Alison Berger
And so you thought, okay, listen, as tough as this place is, they're going to. They're going to teach Me something meaningful about what I want. Right.
- [11:34]
Unknown
Because I don't think I want to fold sweaters at Ralph Lauren the rest of my life.
- [11:42]
Alison Berger
As rewarding as that can feel the right.
- [11:45]
Unknown
Oh, exactly. And I had no other skill set. So it's like, this is what I would be doing if I didn't push myself.
- [11:52]
Alison Berger
So you graduate with an eye towards what? What were they setting you up for? Or what were you thinking you were gonna go do?
- [12:00]
Unknown
Well, I. You know, I also was studying architecture as well. And when I first got out of school, I worked as is kind of the legacy of, you know, risd glassblowing. I had a moment at Dale Chihuly Studio in Seattle, and then I was like, oh, this is really hard working for an artist, someone who's hugely successful, who's like, you're making work, and it's an incredible opportunity to see that high level of production. And. And I was like, holy cow. Like, I don't like this. And, you know, oh, so. So bad news.
- [12:42]
Alison Berger
Get me out of here. Wow. Okay.
- [12:44]
Unknown
And like, that was the pinnacle thing. The pinnacle thing you could do. And I was just like, right.
- [12:49]
Alison Berger
I mean, here you're suddenly, like, working for, like, if ever there's a glassblower, Right. You're working for Dale Chihuly, and you're thinking you've already arrived here. You are this relatively young person, Right?
- [12:58]
Unknown
Yes. And it's just like, oh, I'm in trouble. Like, I remember going to bed going, oh, I'm in trouble. Like, this is not going to be good when I have to say, I have to leave. I mean, I did my time, but it's just like, I gots to go. I don't know where I'm going.
- [13:13]
Alison Berger
Well, so it was. It was. It was just too intense. It was just too rigorous or, I.
- [13:17]
Unknown
Mean, you know, being an artist, you're not really trained to do much other than your own work. And I was producing somebody else's work. And it, again, was. It was just another version of creativity without being connected to my creativity. Yeah. But it was incredible. And what. I mean, so much of that was transformational as well. And what a privilege, and my gosh, what an honor to be able to have that position. And I was terrified that I was like, oh, God, this isn't gonna work for me.
- [13:50]
Alison Berger
Well, so how long were you able to stick it out there?
- [13:53]
Unknown
A year.
- [13:55]
Alison Berger
A year. You felt like that was the time that you. And then you just went. And when you went to say, I can't stay, were they, thanks very much.
- [14:03]
Unknown
Yeah, I think they understood. Yeah, I think that's the beauty of it. People come and go and there's such a high demand to be there. They were like, if you're not into it, then thank you. And, you know, it's the thing about being an artist. There's not a set path. And, you know, that was part of it.
- [14:19]
Alison Berger
But as you. As you now look back lovingly at that time, does something jump out at you about what you really did learn from at least observing that level of work and as you say, the high.
- [14:33]
Unknown
Production and all of that, again, like transformative collaboration. Collaboration working with a team of people you respect, people who are dedicated, a shared vision as to what is achievable. And, you know, that teamwork, to see someone work with a team of people to do their creativity greatly informed my studio.
- [14:54]
Dennis Scully
Okay, okay.
- [14:55]
Alison Berger
So a lot of benefits to that experience. And. Right. And then you storm out of there.
- [15:01]
Unknown
And with my tail between my legs.
- [15:05]
Alison Berger
And thinking, I mean, what were you hoping to be able to do next? And where did you end up?
- [15:11]
Unknown
I mean, I went back to the East Coast. I went back to New York where it was just more familiar. After going to school on the east coast and having spent summers working in the city, and I started working for artists and again came across a glassblowing studio at the time that was in Little Italy and started fabricating work for artists and also freelancing and architecture. And then the skills are now starting to build. Life skills with creative skills are starting to build. It's starting to kind of make sense a little bit. You know, what I learned by working for other people was like, everything for me had to be an assignment within an assignment. So it was like, oh, I'm going to learn this new skill. I'm going to learn this technique. I'm going to understand how to work with this material this way. So giving myself homework within the work helped me stay creatively stimulated.
- [16:04]
Alison Berger
So you're back in New York, you're hanging out in soho. Right. You're working for some other people. You're learning. You're your craft. I'm curious what the big turning point is for you. What's the breakout moment or when are you able to really get your own work out there in a meaningful way?
- [16:28]
Unknown
I mean, so I was in New York for a handful of years, and then I was in graduate school for architecture. I was at Columbia, and I took a semester off and came out to LA to intern at Frank Gehry's and loved LA and just ended up staying Here, staying in Los Angeles and not going back to school. And, you know, like, your parents.
- [16:56]
Alison Berger
Your parents are just going, no, at.
- [16:57]
Unknown
This point, they've given up. Fine, sweetie. No, they've given up years prior. They're just like you have, figuring, like, we got you through high school, and you are now complete. And so loving architecture. And really to build and create space and to look at the light in a space. And so, you know, everything was becoming cumulative, even though it felt like a kaleidoscope of what I was doing. Right. It's just like, how is this all going to come together? And I never stopped blowing glass. And when I moved to Los Angeles, I came across another glassblowing studio. And so I was almost replicating this idea of, like, working for other people and now starting to create my own work and got representation for objects that I used to make. And those were selling at Bergdorf Goodman's and Takeshimaya and other stores around the country. And that's when things started to gel, probably 10 years after getting out of art school, and I started to get published and things like that.
- [17:59]
Alison Berger
And remind me, the objects that you were making, what were you making?
- [18:03]
Unknown
I was looking at paintings from caravaggio in the 17th century, and again looking at historical glassworking techniques and then recreating those into contemporary forms. So this is how they started to take off. And then I had a collaboration with Rei Kumakabo with Comme des Grasson and did an installation in Tokyo and then proceeded to work with Hermes and do a collection for them. And so that's when things started to kind of move forward.
- [18:38]
Alison Berger
So then was that. And I can't remember, was it in Venice that you met Holly Hunt? Yeah, I can't remember.
- [18:45]
Unknown
I had just met Hermes. And so Holly was in town with a friend who wanted to show her textiles. And the lovely friend was like, oh, I have a friend who's a glassblower. Maybe you want to go meet her? And so, again, in, like, risd, professionalism, persistence, I dropped off my portfolio to Holly's hotel and then wrote her a note. And back in those days, you would just leave a phone number and hopefully you'd be home. And she called, and I had included photos and press stuff, and she came to where I lived in a little Venice bungalow. Holly and her incredible self. She walks in a force of nature, and. And she's like, okay, these objects are great. Yeah, we'll take some of them for the showroom. But at the time I started to work on a series of pieces for myself, that were lighting that was inspired by fireflies. And being from Texas herself, Holly and I kind of bonded over that. We're like, oh my God. Yeah, I remember fireflies as a kid and catching them in jars. And I was like, that's what these are. These are fireflies in jars. And she was like, oh, this is interesting. And it became a really evocative conversation over a period of time where she's like, what do you want to do with these? And what are you thinking? And just because Holly is such an artist at heart, it was exciting to cultivate and share with her what I was dreaming for these. And at some point she's like, I think we would do well with this. And it was something I had never even thought about doing lighting per se. But she's like, don't change the story. Continue the story. That's what's so beautiful about these. They are romantic pieces. They're not about any other lighting I've ever seen. And it was just such a tremendous learning curve to how do you bring something that's so intimate and personal that you're creating in your studio to be able to share with a larger audience? And from marketing to manufacturing to consistency to tolerances, like stuff words I had never even heard before. You know, it's. It was just right. And I was like, do I even want to do it? And like us talking about it. And I was like, oh, these are so many boxes that have to be checked. And. And it was just like, wow, this is like, okay, this is like real. This is. This is a business. This is the creative business of making work. And, you know, to be able to not lose the art of it and still sustain commerce was such a great experience.
- [21:29]
Dennis Scully
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- [22:34]
Alison Berger
And how did you learn how to turn all of this creative energy of yours into a business? Because all of the things that you just outlined were terms you weren't overly familiar with.
- [22:50]
Unknown
Right, right. I mean, just through a series of consecutive huge mistakes.
- [22:57]
Alison Berger
Basically, I was just messing it up.
- [23:00]
Unknown
And then learning, like, you know, again.
- [23:04]
Alison Berger
So what did you do? So, I mean, what kind of mistakes did you.
- [23:06]
Unknown
Did you make it? You know, again, like, think about the artistic career. It doesn't really teach you how to run a business. So it was like, not pricing things correctly, not factoring time, not understanding, it's glass and it's going to break six times before maybe you get it right. And so now you're actually giving it away. And you know the margin where people, like, yeah, you do a, you know, 2.0 margin. Yeah. Well, that works if something doesn't break or crack or it becomes a whole different algorithm that didn't exist, and I didn't have anyone to talk to about it, and I just had to figure it out through a series of mistakes. And. And then, you know, like, you know, it's just like. I mean, it was like driving without a break sometimes. Dennis. It was. But, you know, the. The thing that was exciting was that, you know, Holly's belief and holding space for the work to the lighting to be received and to catch on and to be noticed. And then, just like the objects that had had received press before, now all of a sudden, the. The lighting was starting to get press, and it was starting to catch on. And so people who had, you know, editors who had seen that I had done a collection for Hermes was like, oh, you're actually doing, like, lighting that's so interesting. Like, you're pushing the material in a different way. And so getting recognition while also making big mistakes. It's how you create a business.
- [24:33]
Alison Berger
Well, I mean, I think you were sharing with me recently that there was. There was a catalog or something that was being done, and you had decided to just change the designs that you were doing.
- [24:45]
Unknown
I mean, oh, my God, it was, like, so funny. Like, yeah, like, they had done a whole bunch of Holly Hunt, the company had done a whole bunch of photography on the pieces. They're like, this is what they are. And then I was making them, and I'm like, I think they'd be cool if they were a little bit different this. This particular order. And then, like, I ship them to them, and they're like, you cannot change what something is. I was like, oh. But, like, I'd already made that, so I made something different. And they're like, yeah, go back and make those all over again. And we're not paying for the difference. And that was a good mistake that I learned. Like, don't do that. Don't.
- [25:22]
Alison Berger
Don't get creative with the product once it has been photographed and shown and.
- [25:27]
Unknown
Marketed in the showrooms. Yes, create. And that was great. And it's like, oh, then create something new. And so this is, again, the incredible expansion of working with Holly. It was just like, here's another idea. And here's another idea. And, you know, she was so generous, and she's like, wow, you're really prolific. And I'm like, yeah, I have a lot of ideas. And so it's like, don't change the one that's already done. Make something that's new.
- [25:54]
Alison Berger
Well, and I can't remember the timing, and you tell me. But it's not as if you had a lighting studio with a bunch of people working for you when Holly Hunt hands you a purchase order and says, here, I've got a bunch of showrooms that I want to hang your lights in. Right. I mean, this wasn't. You were so far removed from having all of that in place.
- [26:14]
Unknown
Right, that's right. That's exactly right. And. And it was like, who's going to. Who's going to wire it? Well, I am. Well, how do I learn? How do I know how to wire stuff? Like, you know, it was. But you're right, it became a slow. A slow build of, like, finding people that are consistent and finding people that, you know, are reliable. And I'm so fortunate. I've. You know, I've been working with the same people for over 30 years, and probably one of the newest people I work with, I've been working with for 14. So it's kind of like when you find that groove or that community, you kind of cultivate it and make it work for everybody.
- [26:53]
Alison Berger
So miraculously, you scale up. You do find people to help you find someone who understands what UL listing means, I assume. Correct. Right. And everything that goes into all the various codes, thank heavens, that exist to make lighting safe. Right. And suddenly you've got a lighting business. Right?
- [27:18]
Unknown
Correct.
- [27:18]
Alison Berger
Which I feel like you never really. I mean, that wasn't where you thought all of this was taking you.
- [27:25]
Unknown
Correct. This is not. And yet it was so exciting. But it wasn't like I thought that that's what it was going to be. And that's part of the Creativity, it was like letting the work take you where it wants to take you. And the opportunity being, okay, this was an opportunity to share this legacy of blown hand blown pieces, which is such a beautiful process. And something that I believe is part of my mission is sustaining this, this level of making into a contemporary vernacular. And so it was a great way to like, again, have the assignment within the assignment, like, okay, how can I keep this method of making alive and still make it relevant? And so that was something that I knew I wanted to do. But taking the form of lighting per se in quotation marks was no idea of that it would go that way.
- [28:17]
Alison Berger
But when it, when it began to happen, was, was it exhilarating for you that you were on this path to, to creating this lighting company and hiring all these people to help you? And I don't even know how many people you needed to bring on board to suddenly be able to outfit the various Holly Hunt showrooms around the country at. In the day.
- [28:39]
Unknown
I mean, it was, it was tremendously exciting, you know, because as an artist, I want my work to connect. And I saw it connecting. And it's like, you know, I'm not a writer and I'm not a painter, so I communicate through light. And so suddenly people were appreciating the light. And that was a way for me to converse with people in a way that I couldn't converse in other. In other ways. And it was very exciting because something was getting connected. And that is, that's, I think the most true path for me as an artist is that I want to communicate.
- [29:13]
Dennis Scully
What did you want to say?
- [29:15]
Unknown
I wanted to say that slow down, breathe, be in the beauty. You know, take notice of the subtlety of a shadow. Take notice of the subtlety of a beam of light. Just observe and be with it. And so the pieces that I created, which, you know, again, through Holly's support, it's like light is supposed to light. And I was like, these pieces don't light. They are. They are bodies of illumination in and of themselves. They are meant to be still points in the room where you just kind of notice something and observe it for what it is in the beautiful moment. And that became a new kind of language. It's like lighting. I would always say, this isn't meant to cut an onion bite. This is meant to bring you into. It's like electric candlelight. And. And that was a hard thing. It's kind of like it's a light, but it's not a light. Can I put a larger watt into the bulb. And I was like, no, you cannot.
- [30:19]
Alison Berger
This is not meant to light your way.
- [30:22]
Unknown
Right.
- [30:22]
Alison Berger
Some task that you're performing.
- [30:24]
Unknown
No. And that's so. So unusual. And then, you know, we started to tell the story that from fireflies, it became a constellation of stars. And then it became, you know, this. This moment of quiet, meditative light where you're just like, it's just beautiful.
- [30:41]
Alison Berger
It's.
- [30:42]
Unknown
And. And who doesn't look good in candlelight? So why not? Who doesn't want more candlelight in their home if you don't have to have a candle? So it became this kind of understanding that's like, oh, it's a focal point of a room in a different way.
- [30:55]
Alison Berger
All joking aside, I mean, how long did it really take you to build a business that. That could keep up with the demand that was. That was suddenly created through this relationship with. With Holly and eventually others as well?
- [31:08]
Unknown
I mean, with Holly, it took a. It took a handful of years. It was. It was, you know, additive. Right. It was slowly. First of all, don't change the product once it's been photographed. Okay, Good lesson.
- [31:20]
Alison Berger
Okay, got that? Got.
- [31:22]
Unknown
Check. Ship things on time. Check.
- [31:25]
Alison Berger
Excellent. All right.
- [31:26]
Unknown
So it was. It was a trajection, and it was a fast rejection. And I. And I liken it to being on the bullet train because it was happening really fast, and so I had to adapt. And I think being part of successful is also being creative. Business is successful. And I'm so interested in the business side, and I find it fascinating. So it was like another medium I was working in was business, along with creating these objects of illumination. And that was such an exciting thing to bring together and talking about, like, you know, sitting with Holly and being like, how are we doing? And Holly would say to me, like, it's so unusual that you want to look at numbers and understand the feedback. And I'm like, but that's part of the connection. I wanna see how well it's doing and where we can do better.
- [32:15]
Alison Berger
Well, and interestingly, that was so interesting for her. She was so engaged by the business side of it.
- [32:24]
Unknown
Right, right. So we kind of met each other in our places of familiarity. And although Holly is such a creative spirit, it was just like, I wanna know what you know, and. And it was like, oh, I want to see what you see.
- [32:39]
Alison Berger
And the business grows. And then Holly Hunt's going really well. And then you meet this fellow, Gary Friedman, in West Hollywood. He's got a store, apparently. Now, were you familiar with Gary Friedman and the whole RH operation at the time.
- [32:59]
Unknown
Sure. I had seen what they were doing. Sure.
- [33:01]
Alison Berger
And I forget, all joking aside, how you met him, I mean, did you just bump into him or was it.
- [33:07]
Unknown
I mean, I literally bumped into him and, you know, somehow, like whether I went to meet him or he came to meet me, I can't remember. But when we did meet, it was like, we'd like for you to do a commission for us in New York. And so it was like, oh, it's a commission. That's because that was part of my agreement with Holly Hunt at the time. The company is that I was doing outside commissions that were separate from my collection. So I had clients that I was doing very site specific projects for. And that was a very site specific. It was in the Meatpacking district. It's, I believe it's six stories tall, the installation we did back in 2018, and it was like a unique, one of a kind installation.
- [33:54]
Alison Berger
So while working with Holly, you would have some designers who would want to commission custom work with you. And you did those commissions on the side in addition to.
- [34:06]
Unknown
Right, yeah. Outside of the Holly Hunt representation, I often would be working and we still do with designers or private clients who want something that no one else has. And that's the whole other genre of creativity where they're like, yes, we see your collection. It's beautiful. And we don't want that. We want something that doesn't exist. And so I've always had that kind of branch of the tree has always been a big part of the studio as well.
- [34:37]
Alison Berger
Interesting. Okay, so Mr. Friedman frames it as, this is a one off, commissioned piece for this giant store I'm opening in the Meatpacking district. And we're gonna need. We're going to need your lights to basically run six stories long. And you said, sure, that sounds fun.
- [34:56]
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, they actually showed me the building and then I picked the location, I believe where I wanted the installation to go. And. Yeah, and so that's. It was a unique piece. It was made through my studio and that's where it lived for a few years. And it's permanently up and now it's just there in perpetuity.
- [35:15]
Alison Berger
And he must come to you at some point and say, allison, we need a relationship.
- [35:21]
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, I think a hand. A few years later, it was like, would you like to do some designs for us? And it was like, well, I don't know how to do that. You know, all I know how to make is and design are the things that I make. What would it look like, if I don't actually ever touch the thing itself. And I was like, I wasn't quite, you know, I was like, oh, that's such a. A new challenge. And I'm always pushing myself creatively. And. And so that was, you know, after working at that point for over 20 years a certain way, I thought, oh, that could be interesting, you know, because candidly. What's that expression? You know, you know, candidly, since the start of when I started working with Holly, and even when I was doing objects, my work has been knocked off or copied. Right. And so I thought, oh, this is an interesting way to take back, to claim a part of that mass production world that I'm not a part of, but yet I'm clearly feeding. And so it was kind of a creative challenge like that. Like, oh, could I actually take back some of the legacy of what I design or what I make through a design venue where I never actually touch the work? So it was a huge creative challenge because I have so much control over the pieces we make here in Los Angeles, and I don't have that control over something I never touch.
- [36:47]
Alison Berger
Right. So that was the deal with RH that you were simply going to design it and they, through whatever their resources were, wherever in the world all of that is happening.
- [36:56]
Unknown
Right.
- [36:57]
Alison Berger
You weren't. It wasn't happening in your studio in Los Angeles.
- [37:00]
Unknown
Correct. I do not make any of it. And so it was like, you know, and this is, this is, you know, fashion, because I worked with Hermes and Comme des Groans, like fashion is such, has always been such an interesting template to me how you can have couture and ready wear. And I know that's not really part of our industry and but I mean, I'm not someone to color within the lines. And I was just like, I want to try and see if it's possible to go. Go from my very high couture to doing designs that are more accessible. And as an artist, I want to connect with a larger audience. And isn't that what I'm here to do? To spread the beauty of light on every level that's possible for it to be received.
- [37:46]
Dennis Scully
We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Ernesta. Ernesta's designer quality custom size rugs are the foundation to an elevated space. Help your clients transform their homes by joining Ernesta's trade program. As a member of the Ernesta trade program, you'll get preferred pricing, free unlimited 12x12 samples, and dedicated services such as a personal account manager and a Trade only website. To learn more about joining this exclusive program, head to ernesta.com boh that's Ernesta. And now back to the show.
- [38:31]
Alison Berger
Not to bring up bad memories for you, but since you mentioned, and forgive me, but I'm so curious, because, as you were just saying, clearly you've been copied so many times. Do you remember the first time you saw a copy of your light?
- [38:50]
Unknown
Oh, gosh, I really do, Dennis. It was wild. I was. I mean, I'm talking, like, gosh, maybe it was like the first time I'd been published with a light. And six months later, I'm at a stoplight in, you know, Santa Monica Boulevard, and a city bus pulls up to me, and it's CB2. And the. The byline of the billboard on the buses, firefly lights by CB2. And it was like, fireflies. And I was just like, God, that took a second. Wow. You know, all these years, and I literally just remember, like, gripping my steering wheel, going, how did they get there so fast? You know, like. And that was the first time. It was like someone just. Not only did they take the aesthetic, they took the story. And that's what's so interesting. It's like, oh, wow. You took the look, but you took my heart, too. You take. You don't even know what fireflies really are. And it was, like, not photographed. I mean, like, the photography that. Holly Hunt and I worked with a photographer here in Los Angeles, Josh White, who's phenomenal. And we created this aesthetic for lighting that then they started knocking off how we would photograph the lighting. And it was just like, well, why don't you guys just come over so that we can make it easier for you? Like, it was.
- [40:10]
Alison Berger
Well, so in the beginning, did you think there was a way to fight back, or did you think that there was some legal action to be taken? Or how did you.
- [40:20]
Unknown
Yeah, I mean, you just. I think because I had other friends who were, you know, a couple of years ahead of me. They're just like, here's all the criteria that keeps you from prosecuting or pursuing it, rather. And it was just like. Right. They changed it just enough so that it. You know, and someone said to me, who was actually like, again, fashion. One of the heads up at Chrome Hearts, they're like, you can't do anything until they're actually forging your signature so they can get that close. But if they start saying. If they start writing your name on the pieces, that's when you can go after them. Other than that, you can't. And it was just like, wow, that's a cold reality. So I better just continue to be the well of creativity and just keep moving. And that's what I hopefully have continued to do.
- [41:09]
Alison Berger
So for years. I guess this is building up because this happened, right?
- [41:13]
Unknown
Years. Like 18 years of this.
- [41:16]
Alison Berger
Wow. Okay, so part of what happens with RH coming to you in this way is you're thinking, okay, this is my way of somehow taking something, reclaiming something.
- [41:28]
Unknown
Correct reclaiming without compromising the couture that we're doing.
- [41:32]
Alison Berger
Right. Okay. And you're going to learn to figure out how to design something and then hand it off. And their team is, would you even prototype them or you wouldn't even do that?
- [41:46]
Unknown
No, I didn't even do that. I didn't even do that because it's like, I really wanted to. Like, I wanted to keep it separate. You know, I'm not the maker. I'm not the maker. And being the maker for me is everything. It's. It's everything. And so it's like, oh, wow, I can connect with a larger audience, and how can I retain part of it without ever having touched the work? And I'm really pleased with the results.
- [42:17]
Alison Berger
Okay. And I'm assuming it gets your name out there. I mean, I've spoken with other people who. And I don't want to use the term, gave in to rh, but I mean, I've spoken with other people like David Sutherland. I mean, David Sutherland was very frank with me and said, listen, they were copying my stuff. And so I thought, let me jump in and have them partner with me rather than do it that way and.
- [42:41]
Unknown
Right.
- [42:41]
Alison Berger
And get my name in their big old catalogs. And he says that was a great decision that he made because suddenly. Right. He's part of their marketing materials. And so it was very helpful to their operation. And other people have said the same, that it's a great distribution channel. It's another stream of revenue. And maybe, to use your analogy, maybe the Ready to Wear can help support the couture in some constructive way. Did it work that way?
- [43:13]
Unknown
I don't know if it does. I think couture is couture. I think it is. And I think people who understand that gravitate towards it. And I'm not quite sure what's helped what, other than my just staying true to myself and continuing to create. I do know that it's really, for me, so much about connecting the language of light. And I don't mean to sound esoteric and. Or I don't Mean, to feel like, you know, but it's really so important for me. And I think that was the big motivation and distribution and all of that. I don't know if that's really been part of it for me as far as the motivation.
- [43:55]
Alison Berger
Okay. Because some people talk to me about how some people have lines, licensing lines, and they say, you know what, in many cases, that revenue stream just helps support my design firm or my creativity. Right.
- [44:10]
Unknown
Or I mean, 100%. Right. So it's like all things help support the studio. The studio, my studio is the most important thing to sustain.
- [44:20]
Alison Berger
And so, but that relationship, you know, goes, goes on and well, they're, they're continuing.
- [44:25]
Unknown
I mean, you know, right now that's, that's not something I'm focusing on right now. I'm focusing on really creating limited edition pieces. So I'm taking the couture and taking it even higher and, and I've been traveling to other countries learning different techniques. I really am looking towards gallery representation for these limited edition pieces. And so again, it's kind of like I'm constantly in different lanes on the highway of creativity, I guess. So sometimes I'm running the business, sometimes I'm really pushing myself to learn new techniques. And that's just where the focus is right now.
- [45:02]
Alison Berger
So I love that. And let's talk about that because the relationship with Holly Hunt kind of winds down. Right. And from what I understand, you've got some new relationships with Thomas Lavin and D'Souza Hughes and. Right. And bright. And so you've got that representation. But you're also, from what you were just suggesting, looking maybe for some gallery opportunities to show even more couture like work that you're creating.
- [45:33]
Unknown
Correct. It's like again, just pushing myself in terms of technique and collaboration to create works that maybe there's only three ever made. And the production in quotation marks of what I do for my collection is already so, you know, sometimes single digit, but it's a different price point and a different strategy that I'm, you know, I'm dreaming of creating now. And usually I have the idea years before something shows up. So let's hope that this is something that's possible.
- [46:04]
Alison Berger
So, so is that right? So, so something will come to you and, and it will be years before it comes to fruition.
- [46:10]
Unknown
Correct, Correct.
- [46:12]
Alison Berger
And why is that? What, what, what is the process?
- [46:14]
Unknown
I mean, sometimes, sometimes what I think of is way far advanced than where I actually am creatively. You know, I'll get an idea for something I'm Like, I don't know how to do it, I don't know how to make it. And now I need to go on the research path of figuring it out. So, you know, things happen in cycles, and I feel like I'm stepping more. I think I was in the business side and the production side, and I think I'm stepping back more into the artist side, you know, all these years later, you know, almost. It's a new beginning in a way.
- [46:46]
Alison Berger
Did you experience the. So we've been talking for some time about how our industry as a whole is trying to adjust to this incredible demand pickup that we experienced during the height of COVID And everybody was busy and everybody, everybody was buying new homes and moving and hiring designers and specifying all this product. And then just as quickly as all that business came about, things dropped dramatically for so many people. And as we've been talking about recently, the wealthy are still spending money, but they're just spending money now on traveling the world and taking exotic trips, and they've outfitted all of their many homes, and so they're doing other things. And so we're waiting for this next.
- [47:36]
Dennis Scully
Pickup in the cycle.
- [47:38]
Alison Berger
And so interest rates are high and people aren't buying and selling homes as much as they once were. Did you experience all of that in your business?
- [47:50]
Unknown
And if so, 100%. 100% things being consistent, but not that tsunami that it was, you know, and consistent. And so the consistency is actually more familiar than what was happening during COVID That was almost like a rare. A rare kind of peak that it just like it became. That accelerated. What it feels like now is more similar to what it was. And that was a rarefied moment. And it was kind of like, if you thought that that was the new normal, get ready. Because I don't think it's going to be. And I think having been around the block a few times, I was like, this is great, but this isn't. This isn't the way it is. This is like, don't start thinking like it's, you know, and so running kind of an atelier the way that we do. I. I didn't like, hire 30 people. I was like, just the people I have working or just. We're all just going to have to work a little bit longer and then we'll. Things will level out and we'll go back to the way it was in 20, 19 and 18. I think maybe I had kind of a realistic. And I think other people who were newer to the industry were like, whoa, this is. This Is amazing. And I was like. And I was like, I don't think this is gonna last, you know, but great if. And great if it does. But. But the crisis of people being locked in their homes, I recognized. And again, maybe from a cultural, anthropological point of view, it was like, of course you want to make your shelter the most comfortable when things are chaotic. And now things. I mean, there's another layer of chaos going on. But. But that was. I think that was a rare time, and I saw it as that.
- [49:27]
Dennis Scully
And is that because you had been.
- [49:29]
Alison Berger
Through other economic cycles that you. Oh, yeah.
- [49:32]
Dennis Scully
Yes.
- [49:33]
Unknown
Yeah. I think I. You know, I'd been through the crash in 2000, you know, 2008, starting my own business. Like, I think the sustainability of a successful studio is to know when to stay lean and mean, even when things are busy, you know, because it's not about expanding and contracting. It's about staying the course with the team of people you trust, no matter what's coming down the road. And I think that's been, you know, as much as I can be in my heart about, like, what I want to make, I also have this side that's really, like, you know, stable. And I'm like, this is. We need to stay the course, and this is how we're going to do it. My dream is something I'd love to do is, like, be able to teach artists and designers how to maybe almost mentor in terms of the business side. And I think that that is such a uncharted territory where so many people are. And fortunately, I am mentoring some people now. And it's like, how do you figure this stuff out? The business side?
- [50:38]
Alison Berger
What are some of the things that you try and really drive home for the people that you are mentoring? What is it that you think is.
- [50:47]
Dennis Scully
Most important about what you've learned?
- [50:50]
Unknown
Well, one thing is it's like staying the course of what you believe, understanding that things take a long time. And I think there's such a level of impatience that a younger. Sorry, guys, younger generation, it's like, yeah, it's taken me years to figure out this one technique. And so if you believe in it, keep following it. Don't give up. And really, let's look at how much it costs for you to keep your lights on and figure out not one project is going to pay for your month, but how many projects do you need to bring in a month to keep the lights on? You know, and who cares how much the money the person has? That should never be a factor. It should always be that you're doing okay, you're keeping your team okay. And that at the end of the day, you're creating something you're proud of. And it's never. It doesn't matter who it's for. It has to be a bigger integrity of, like, is it correct and can it be cost effective to make? And so I'm just, you know, thank you for asking me, because I'm so passionate about being able to help after so many years of doing this. And I'm, you know, trying to find a platform where I could do it more constructively than the few people who have reached out.
- [52:00]
Alison Berger
I love that you're pursuing that because I think it's one of the great challenges for creatives. And I've spoken to so many makers who shared with me even just that process of asking for what you were worth or charging what it really took you to make, instead of trying to do it on the cheap and say, no, it's only a few hundred dollars, when really, you know, it took you hours and hours. And as you were saying earlier, and six of them broke along the way. And I mean, learning to charge what you are worth is difficult for designers and it's difficult for makers. And yet it's such an important part of making it all work.
- [52:46]
Unknown
I mean, it's so important because it's like, you can't get in someone's head. It's like, would someone pay X for something? You can only do that a few times before you're running in the red and you're just like, if it's not going to go at this price, well, then I can't go down just to make it. Like, I can't go down with the ship just to make it. Like, it's just like, then I'll let it go. And to know in terms of integrity that it's not about trying to run a fast one by someone, it's like, this is the reality and this is the reality of what it is. And I love this. I think I heard recently the Hermes, maybe it's one of the owners of Hermes, you know, when something is costly because it takes what it takes to create it, and it's meant to last versus something being expensive is something you replace because it wasn't well made. And that's what you know. When you buy something three times, it's expensive. When you buy it once, it's costly. And that's very different. And to know that my clients have willed the pieces to their children and it's part of their legacy of Heirlooms is like, the greatest gift. It's like, right, you don't have to buy this ever again. You're going to buy this once, and it's going to stay in your family. And that is a great privilege to be able to create that way.
- [54:07]
Alison Berger
Well, and I think I was remembering years ago, I used to work for Waterworks, and I remember when we first introduced a copper bathtub. And I think it was $35,000 at the time. And we literally had to train salespeople to be okay with telling a client this was a $35,000 tub and that they had clients that could certainly afford to buy this $35,000 tub. But you had to be able to say it was $35,000. That's right. With a straight face. And PS Waterworks now sells some marble bathtubs that I understand are several times that. And again, you have to be able to say that. Right. Look at this incredible thing. It's a piece of art. And here you go.
- [54:50]
Unknown
Yes. And that's why the showrooms and the teams and the collaboration and the intimacy, because the showrooms are carrying the message of the work, and they have to believe in it as much as I do. And I had this experience with Holly. We had done a chandelier, and someone said, oh, I could just as easily hang a BMW from my ceiling. You know, it wasn't like, can you believe that person said that? I was like, no, that's a great opportunity. Opportunity to educate. And that's a great opportunity to explain why this is a BMW hanging from your ceiling. You know, it's like. And that's part of the exciting part of being in collaboration is you get to train and teach and bring the story along. And that's part of the business of what I share with the mentees is like, don't try and convince someone. The audience will come to you. You know, don't try and try and sell someone on something they don't see. If they don't see it, respect that and let it go and let it be.
- [55:48]
Alison Berger
I wonder, to that point, there's two things I want to ask you that are related to what you're doing now. One, so you've been working with interior designers for years, and I wonder, what did you learn about how to best work with designers? What did you find they needed from you? And how did you.
- [56:11]
Dennis Scully
How were you able to help them?
- [56:12]
Alison Berger
I mean, Holly always talks about, I'm here to help designers look good in front of their clients. Like, that's what she always Saw as her job. Absolutely right. And her team's job. How did that show up for you?
- [56:27]
Unknown
Exactly the same way. Create beautiful presentation drawings that help tell the story, where the designer is able to set out a great example of what the work is to support them in carrying the message in the most eloquent way possible, you know, so that's one way to do it. Another way is to get into the story of wanting to know about the clients and creating unique pieces that celebrate the client's life or the home that they're building to get. To get to an intimate level of like, oh, this is a room they really love to be in. And I was like, okay, this room is going to change throughout the year. So will the installation we do. And how great is that? That they'll experience the space differently over time. And so it's understanding the lifestyle of who's living there. It's understanding why are they there, what's the emotion behind the space. How can we honor that and create something that makes it even more special? The shared value of, like, we want this place, we want our home to be a place of rejuvenation. We want our home to be a place of grounding. Help us do that. And I'm like, those are my peeps. That's my crew.
- [57:34]
Alison Berger
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, so is any of this crazy tariff stuff that's going on, is that. Does that create any challenges for you? Do you have a bunch of things that are like.
- [57:46]
Unknown
Like all of it does, right? Like, all of it. Like, what a time we're in. Like, how many, how many, how many walls can we be hitting in the last few years? I mean, it's just been like, you know, it's like, it's just unbelievable. Of course, materials, all of it. And it puts things into question every day. Is that the material we want to use? Why can the idea support it? All of it.
- [58:12]
Alison Berger
One of the things that's come up a lot, a highly respected designer whose work I really like a great deal, Brian Paquette. He shared recently on his Instagram stories an annual review that he does to see how much prices have moved around in the marketplace. And so he priced out a project, just a furnishings only project that he had done in 2023. And he said it was about $378,000. And he said it's not even our super high end, but it was, you know, it was a nice project. It was about a 3200 square foot space.
- [58:45]
Dennis Scully
And he went and he repriced it for today.
- [58:48]
Alison Berger
And it's about $500,000. Wow. Yeah. And that's just. And not even two years. And so this conversation keeps coming up about how much more expensive things in our industry have become, the materials, to your point, everything. And also this perception that we're so much more expensive. And is that coming up for you.
- [59:17]
Dennis Scully
And is it a concern?
- [59:19]
Unknown
Yes, it's coming. I mean first of all, it's like things. Are things more expensive or is the dollar just getting weaker? Which is why when I'm working with people, I'm like, please give me a budget. Please help me understand what's possible that's really sustainable. And don't tell me that you don't have a budget because I'm going to come back with something that's not going to be affordable. So it's like I need structure in order to create. And so yes, it's concerning. Hopefully we can stay creative regardless of the criteria of budget. I mean, obviously there's certain budgets we can't create based on how we produce the work. But like all of it's real. You know, some people, like, they don't want to talk about money or if they give you a budget, they think you're going to wring them dry for every last scent of what the budget was. You know, it's like, oh, it's $100. Well, it's 999. You know, like it's, it's, but, but it's, it's the reality of I'm like, we have to talk about the resources into the project. Like, I'm not someone who's afraid to say like what's feasible here and, and to really take kind of the mystique around money off the table and just get real about it, like, what can we do? Where are we looking for and working in that way and saying yes, the dollar buys less than it did. So what can we create with what we have? And yeah, it's challenging and our industry is working for a very specific group of clientele. And so it's just part of what it's always been. It's just becoming more of what it ever was.
- [60:54]
Alison Berger
There's all this talk about interest rates and the housing market and all of that. Do you pay attention to all of that? Do you pay attention to the stock market or what you think the high end clients are being affected by?
- [61:07]
Unknown
I mean, first of all, yes, all throughout the day.
- [61:11]
Alison Berger
Okay, okay.
- [61:13]
Unknown
Because it's interesting to me. Okay. And I do see that people are being affected and at the same time more information about it doesn't necessarily help me know what's going to happen next. I just have to kind of be grounded in what is and, and wait to see what happens. Like, I, you know, I'm not someone who spends hours scrolling through the news cycle, but I do check in periodically through the day. And, you know, I think we're, we're just in more unknown and we never really know, but it seems like more unknown is more present now. And it's like, let's see how we manage that. Manage the unknown, the not knowing.
- [61:53]
Alison Berger
Yeah, no, there's a, there's an awful lot to manage at the moment. It's a, it's a very noisy environment. I think tariffs have been implemented several times just since we began this conversation. So I'm not even sure. Not sure. Canada, Mexico. I hope you're not getting a lot of materials out of Canada and Mexico, Allison, because those prices are going up soon. Alison, I'm so grateful to you for the time. It's such an incredible pleasure to get.
- [62:22]
Unknown
To speak with you, Dennis. I mean, dream come true to finally get to talk to you. Thank you so much. Thank you.
- [62:30]
Dennis Scully
Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with.
- [62:32]
Alison Berger
The latest design industry news, visit us.
- [62:35]
Dennis Scully
Online@Businessofhome.Com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line@podcastbusinessofhome.com if you're.
- [62:53]
Alison Berger
Enjoying these conversations, please leave us a.
- [62:55]
Dennis Scully
Review on Apple Podcasts.
- [62:57]
Alison Berger
It helps others to discover the show.
- [63:00]
Dennis Scully
This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening listening and I'll see you next week.