Ben Pentreath does it all

Summary

Business of Home Podcast: "Ben Pentreath Does It All"

Host: Dennis Scully
Guest: Ben Pentreath
Release Date: February 3, 2025

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Introduction & Background

In this captivating episode of the Business of Home Podcast, host Dennis Scully engages in an in-depth conversation with Ben Pentreath, a renowned generalist in the interior design community. Unlike many designers who specialize in specific niches, Ben's expertise spans housing developments, private residences, and unique retail operations. Among his most celebrated projects is Poundbury, a meticulously planned community in England championed by King Charles.

Notable Quote:
Ben Pentreath [03:20]: "First began back in your school days."

The Poundbury Project

Ben delves into his long-term association with Poundbury, a project that exemplifies organic urban development. Initiated by the Prince of Wales, Poundbury is designed to reflect the character of an old English settlement, fostering a community where various daily needs are met within walking distance.

Notable Quote:
Ben Pentreath [05:03]: "Only legitimate comparison that you can make, this is actually not a 300-year-old town, it's actually a 30-year-old housing estate."

Ben emphasizes the project's sustainability and the seamless integration of social and affordable housing, adhering to government policies that mandate 30-40% of houses be allocated to those on the affordable housing register.

Philosophy of Development

The discussion shifts to the broader philosophy behind Poundbury's development. Ben highlights the contrast between England's approach to urban planning and the car-centric developments prevalent in America and much of the world. He underscores the importance of creating walkable communities that reduce dependency on automobiles, enhancing both sustainability and community cohesion.

Notable Quote:
Ben Pentreath [06:27]: "In an era when most designers pick a niche, Ben is a proud generalist."

Generalist vs. Specialist Approaches

Ben passionately advocates for the role of generalists in the design industry. Drawing inspiration from historical figures like William Kent and Robert Adam, who seamlessly blended architecture, furniture design, and urban planning, he argues that modern specialization fragments the creative process. Ben believes that a holistic approach allows for more cohesive and integrated design solutions.

Notable Quote:
Ben Pentreath [20:38]: "In the 16th, 17th, 18th, up until the 19th century, there were very, very few distinctions between what they were doing. They were just designing."

Business Challenges and Economic Factors

The conversation transitions to the current economic climate in the UK, where increasing taxation and rising bank interest rates have led to a decline in new housing inquiries. Ben shares how his firm, now grown to approximately 40 employees, has adapted by treating every new inquiry with heightened seriousness, recognizing that even seemingly modest projects can evolve into significant ventures.

Notable Quote:
Ben Pentreath [25:43]: "Sometimes it's the things which seem to be not necessarily very promising on first hint that turn out to be some of the most wonderful projects."

Ben’s Approach to Interior Design

Ben discusses his unique approach to interior design, which prioritizes understanding clients' preferences and integrating their existing collections. He contrasts his method with the more rigid, trend-driven approaches often seen in American design, advocating for a more personalized and evolving aesthetic that reflects the homeowners' individuality.

Notable Quote:
Ben Pentreath [35:08]: "It's a little bit of a cop out in a way, at a deep philosophical level. I'm actually much more of a modernist in decoration."

Photography and Presentation Methods

Exploring the visual representation of his projects, Ben shares his journey into photography. Frustrated with the bombastic and dogmatic nature of professional interior photography, he adopted a more authentic approach, capturing spaces as they are without extensive staging. This method strives to convey the true atmosphere and narrative of each project.

Notable Quote:
Ben Pentreath [50:02]: "Interior design is not something that was carved on tablets and brought down from the mountain by Moses."

Evolution and Succession in Design Firms

Towards the episode's conclusion, Ben reflects on his firm's evolution and his personal journey towards succession planning. Faced with personal tragedies, including the loss of his parents, Ben realized the importance of establishing a robust succession plan. He transitioned his firm into an employee ownership trust, ensuring its longevity and fostering a collaborative environment where the next generation can thrive independently of his direct oversight.

Notable Quote:
Ben Pentreath [60:47]: "I've grown the practice to a scale where it also was beginning to develop a life of its own and attract talent of its own."

Ben's forward-thinking approach not only secures the firm's future but also embodies his belief in sustainable and inclusive business practices.

Conclusion

This episode of the Business of Home Podcast offers a profound exploration of Ben Pentreath's multifaceted career and his unwavering commitment to holistic design. From the meticulously crafted Poundbury project to his authentic approach to interior design and thoughtful succession planning, Ben exemplifies the essence of a true generalist in an increasingly specialized industry.

Notable Quote:
Ben Pentreath [63:13]: "I think that... this is really good for the longevity of the practice... letting the next generation... have the time and the space to prosper and do what they need to do."

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This episode was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda.

Transcript

[Dennis Scully]

This is Business of Home. I'm your host Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is Ben Pentreath. In an era when most designers pick a niche, Ben is a proud generalist. His work spans everything from housing developments to private homes to a quirky retail operation. Pentreath and Hall. One of his most well known projects is not a house but an entire village, Poundbury, a planned community in England championed by King Charles. However, Ben's work for private clients is also highly celebrated and he's a regular on industry Best of Lists. I spoke with Ben about the personal tragedy that prompted him to develop a succession plan, why he takes every email inquiry seriously, and why American designers can never qu nail English style. This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta, your destination for designer quality custom size rugs with a curated assortment of timeless colors, patterns and textures. Ernesta will deliver the right size rug in the style your client wants in only two to four weeks and with Ernesta's exclusive trade membership benefits, you can get dedicated support, free unlimited samples and special discounts to help you achieve your clients design goals. To join Ernesta's Trade program, visit ernesta.com boh this podcast is also sponsored by Hickory Chair. Since 1911, Hickory Chair has been dedicated to blending the authenticity of classic craftsmanship with the precision of of modern lean manufacturing in their Hickory, North Carolina workroom. Over the years its collections have grown to include timeless designs both modern and classic, drawn from iconic periods and places and brought to life by renowned designers like Suzanne Castler, Ray Booth, David Phoenix, Susan Habel, Kim Scodrow and Marriott Hymes Gomez. In partnership with interior designers, trade showrooms and high end boutique stores, Hickory Chair's master craftsmen create bespoke furniture that reflects the designer's vision and is celebrated for creating luxurious yet livable furniture designed to stand the test of time. Visit Hickorychair.com to learn more. And now on with the show. Ben, we're going to get into your thoughts on English decoration and some other interesting topics that you and I have been discussing recently. But I wanted to start by talking.

[Ben Pentreath]

About Poundbury, a model town of sorts.

[Dennis Scully]

That has been the longtime vision of King Charles and began when he was still the Prince of Wales and the Duke of Cornwall and talk about your long term connection to the project that.

[Ben Pentreath]

First began back in your school days.

[Dennis Scully]

You went to the Prince of Wales Institute of Architecture.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Institute of Architecture, exactly.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

So his architectural school was his attempt in those days to challenge In a.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Way, the status quo of how things were normally taught.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And it was an incredible education.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

It was also completely chaotic and sort of mad in a wonderful way.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I suspect that in its way, I mean, who knows, but I wonder if.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

It had some of the sort of.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Febrile atmosphere that must have existed in.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Places like the Bauhaus school.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

But one of our first live projects was working on the very first phase of Poundbury. It was very carefully designed as a series of streets and spaces, squares and buildings which had the strong characteristic that they had developed organically over time. In other words, it was a careful rendition of an old English settlement, not.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Quite a village, not quite a town, somewhere in between the two that had developed incrementally and organically over a long period of time. What's amazing about visiting that part of Poundbury now is that it feels incredibly settled and like a place that has.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Been there for actually far longer than it has. One of the things which I'm often.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Struck by is people start comparing it.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

To a 300 or 400 year old.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Town, a historic place, and they sort of, in comparison, they say, well, it.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Feels a bit not quite so real.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Or whatever the words might be.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And I'm like, okay, but actually the.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Only legitimate comparison that you can make, this is actually not a 300 year old town, it's actually a 30 year old housing estate.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

It's a 1980s housing estate. And if you want to go and see what they look like, let's go down the road and we can have a look. And then talk to me about which is the most successful way forward philosophy of development. Because obviously what we're trying to do in Poundbury, we're trying to bring in.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

A huge mix of different uses.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

So there's commercial spaces, there's offices, there's shops, businesses, cafes, restaurants, all of the kind of effectively the daily needs of daily life.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Doctor surgeries, dentists, vets, etc, et cetera, et cetera, are all contained within the. Within the boundary of the settlement itself. And what that means is that people can walk, they don't have to get into their car.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Whereas most of the rest of post.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

War British development, and very much so.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

In America, most of the world has.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Been entirely constructed around the car as the only means to get from your house to work, to shops, to schools, to leisure centers or whatever it might be. If one is looking at the inherent sustainability of placemaking and the robustness of.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Placemaking in the long term, that is.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

An incredibly powerful, complicated mix to achieve.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Another underlying factor In Poundbury, which has.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Really been incredibly successful and has been very widely adopted now, as government policy.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Within the uk, is to seamlessly mix.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Social and affordable housing through the development throughout each phase of the development. About 30 to 40% of the houses.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Are for residents who are on the affordable housing register.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So that's a sort of a list.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Held by the local authority, set by the local authority, but people who need assistance with housing, and they're generically called.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Council housing, in common parlance social housing or council housing.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

A young Prince of Wales, you know.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Over many decades, was. Was visiting many of these quite broken.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Places in cities and towns across the.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Uk, and the visual stigmatization of council housing is something which is absolutely fascinating. As soon as you enter the council estate, it's got its own slightly gloomy kind of fonts and signage everywhere.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And the signage is quite bullying.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Very often. It's like loads of signs saying, no ball games here. Or, you know, do not do this.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Do not do that.

[Ben Pentreath]

Do not experience pleasure on these grounds. Right.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

That's kind of quite extraordinary. I mean, you have that very much in America as well. Absolutely.

[Ben Pentreath]

We often refer to it as NIMBYISM here in America. Right, the not in my backyard notion.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Yes.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I think nimbyism is something slightly different.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I mean, that is like no new development in my backyard In England, my good friend, who runs the King's foundation, as it is now known, formerly the Prince's foundation for the Built Environment, set up a brilliant campaign which they ran.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And still continue to run a few.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Years ago, which is called bimby, which is demanding beauty in my backyard.

[Ben Pentreath]

Yes, I like that you're not saying.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

No, but you're saying if development is to happen, we want it to be good.

[Ben Pentreath]

So interesting what you were saying earlier. I've spoken to so many architects who talk about this, let's use the word brainwashing, for lack of a better term, where they either want you to only focus on modernism and forget about anything you ever heard about traditional architecture. Right. Because we're going to tell you what's what. And here you go. And you had this incredible opportunity to hear a whole different sensibility, Right?

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, partly, I think I'm quite lucky that I'm not actually. I'm not an architect, I'm not a qualified architect. I never went to architecture school other than my year and a half at the Prince's Institute of Architecture. I read history of art and history of Architecture at Edinburgh University, which gives.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

You a completely different perspective on life.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Because Actually, you suddenly realize that history is absolutely vital. It is us, we are just in.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

A little place in history.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

There's that wonderful expression that history never repeats, but it rhymes, which I always love.

[Ben Pentreath]

If I remember correctly, early on in your education, you had a faculty advisor of sorts who discouraged you, if I recall saying, oh, you're not really good at math, you're not really good at physics. Maybe architecture is not for you.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

That's absolutely true. Yeah. I put that in the introduction to my book because that was a very key person in my life.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

He was my careers advisor at school.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

When I was probably 16, 17, and.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Was very interested in going to architecture school and was firmly sat down and.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Said, this is a terrible idea.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

You need to have a much more physics based and kind of maths based kind of background if that's going to be successful.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And I'm like, well, in the benefit.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Of hindsight, that's why God created engineering.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Someone else could make the building stand up. But yeah, no, I was very much steered away from architecture school, so it.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Was a sideways route in.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And there was no doubt that when.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The Prince of Wales began to get.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Interested in architecture and design in the.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

1980S, which is his first involvement, I was really quite young. And actually, I will say that even.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Then his book, which is fascinating to.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Read now, it's 30 years old, but it's still actually incredibly prescient.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

It's called A Vision of Britain Laying out His basic philosophy, which hasn't really changed that dramatically in the period of time it's obviously matured and become much richer and deeper. But it's a profoundly interesting book and that was very, very interesting to me at the time as a kind of.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Young person beginning to get interested in.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Design, I'm absolutely sure that even that was part of my journey.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

But definitely having the architectural school as.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

A route in really made a massive, massive difference. And then I went to work in the States for five years and then when I came back from the US from New York, I spent another year working at the Prince's foundation, which the.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Architectural school had sort of morphed into.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

A teaching charity and sort of activist charity, involved in many, many different aspects.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Of the Prince's interests in the built environment. So I worked there for a year as an urban designer and master planner and architectural designer.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And on the back of that experience then, and that's when I set up.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

On my own 20 years ago.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And I've spent a lot of time.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Since on several of the big urban design projects, obviously are for the duchy.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Of Cornwall, which was the Prince's landowning.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Organisation, now obviously operated and managed by the new Prince of Wales, Prince William.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and tell me about.

[Ben Pentreath]

As you were just describing. So you went through all of that and then finally deciding to go out on your own and set up your own shop with a notion of. Of what was this?

[Unknown Speaker 2]

The notion was. It was pretty basic, I think, which.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I do talk about in the book as well.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And it was fortuitous. I had designed a little crescent of houses in Poundbury. I'd actually designed the houses when I was working with Fairfax and Salmons, with Anne and Richard, I'm sure you'll know, in New York. And so Richard and I collaborated on.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The buildings, but it was sort of.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

A commission which I had brought into the office and which I was very.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Heavily involved with, if we can put it like that. And then one half of that crescent.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

In Poundbury, Woodlands Crescent, was built and.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The development slowly chugged on.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And then about five years later, and I'd been back in the UK for.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Quite a few years at that point.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And was already beginning to get involved in Poundbury through the Prince's foundation and sort of engagement with the Duchy of Cornwall in those days, the next half of the crescent came forward and they.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Were using identical house types.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And Phil Fry, who's one of the.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

House builders, said, well, we've got a small royalty fee that we need to.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Pay for the reuse of the repeated house types and we need to write a check for a very small number of thousands of pounds. But, I mean, it was literally three or five thousand pounds, something like that.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I can't remember what it was, not.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

A lot of money, but enough that I suddenly thought, wow, I've got four months Ren Branton bank for the first time in my life. And it suddenly kind of gave me a light bulb moment that actually maybe this was quite a good time, which I had been thinking about in my head to strike out on my own.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

People had been beginning to, friends or.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

What have you, who'd been beginning to.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Ask me to kind of look at.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Little projects and things like that. But the real tipping point was that.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

In my architectural role at the Prince's.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Foundation, I was involved in the oversight.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And the supervision of a new development.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

A new town development in Northamptonshire called Upton, which the foundation was involved in.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The master planning and the architectural delivery. And my role was to sit with.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

The very nice house builders who were.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Bringing forward the first phases of that development and effectively to kind of nanny.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Them and look after them and make sure. That what they were designing had sort.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Of a degree of architectural coherence and.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Integrity and they were very nice people. But I will say that it was still a slightly frustrating task. And I realized then, I mean, as a slightly bullish and I guess at this stage I was in my early to mid-30s, bouncing around like a box of frogs, I realized I wasn't the best teacher, if I can put it like that. I wasn't the most patient, not the most patient person. And as the next phase of the development was being prepared and released for the market, I was thinking, do I really want to go through the next three years of my life of having to collaborate with another developer and tell them what to do and what it should, try and persuade them what it should look like and control and kind of thing? And I was like, oh, do I try and find a developer and actually.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Submit our own entry? The land was being released on a.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Design competition basis and we entered the competition ourselves. And so that's what I opted to do, which was a very crazy move. So that was good.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And so there I was, I guess I was in my early 30s. I was probably at about 33 years.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Old and I was a one man band and I just won the design competition to design and submit planning application for 250 houses in a major new development in Northamptonshire. Yeah, that was my first ever project, which was quite a crazy one.

[Dennis Scully]

We're taking a quick break to remind you that you can discover Hickory Chair at a trade showroom near you or explore its website to find inspiring collections, fabrics, finishes and a wide range of customization options for crafting, bespoke upholstery and wood pieces for your home. If you're attending High Point Market this spring, stop by their stunning showroom at 200 North Hamilton. Experience Ray Booth's new collection. Unwind in the design center and enjoy a cup of espresso, a cocktail, a free lunch, and Hickory Chair's signature hospitality. For more inspiration, visit Hickorychair.com or follow along on Instagram Hickorychair. And now back to the show.

[Ben Pentreath]

Well, and what a wild start to your firm and a firm that has.

[Dennis Scully]

Since grown by leaps and bounds.

[Ben Pentreath]

And I think you told me recently it's around 40 some odd people.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Yeah, we're about 40 people now.

[Ben Pentreath]

Yeah, yeah. And help me understand the division of all of that, because here, as we've been talking about this whole time, building out these model towns and all of that, but also you're very involved in interiors projects and have a shop and all these Other elements. I mean, it's quite an elaborate business. As it turns out, about one third.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Of the office is engaged on the master planning and the town planning side, one third on architecture, one third on decoration.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

It's roughly that sort of split a.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Little more in the architectural department. So a lot of the work that we're doing is.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Is either designing new houses or restoring old houses or kind of major extensions.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And alterations to buildings.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And if we're working on very old.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Buildings, we love also doing the interior design, because in some ways that's the really creative part of the process.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And if we're working on new houses.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

We might be collaborating with another interior designer.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And if we're. We also do quite a few interior.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Design projects where we're working with a different architect.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

So it's quite a strange and unusual.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Blend, in a way.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And I do have some quite strange days, I will be honest.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I have some strange days in my.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Life where in the morning I will be doing a client meeting on a.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Private house interior decoration project.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And we will be sitting reviewing fabrics and wallpapers and cushion detailing and piping and what fabric trims we're going wrap around, what fringe is going around a sofa. And I will leave that meeting and I will literally have to kind of empty my head of everything we've just.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Been talking about, because in the afternoon.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I'm going to an infrastructure meeting on a major housing development.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And we're looking at flood risk assessments.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And sort of like beneath the road, drainage implications for kind of like what's happening above the development. And this is a kind of a weird degree of fragmentation.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Obviously.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

It's a weird degree of fragmentation in.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The 20th century, late 20th, early 21st century.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

We know you're no longer used to generalists. Everybody, in a way now is in.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Some sort of specialized business. You have architects who. I mean, I've been working recently with an architect who runs a very successful practice.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

All he does, all he has ever.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Done his entire life, is deliver sound recording studios.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

That's all they do.

[Ben Pentreath]

You're kidding.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

They make practice.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Yeah. Okay. And that might include buildings, actually designing.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Buildings, but only sound recording buildings.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Or you'll have firms who are specialists in the delivery of healthcare, or you will have firms who are specifically involved in the delivery of leisure or entertainment facilities or hotels or whatever it might be.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So we've become incredibly used to this degree of sort of fragmentation and specialization. But actually, in the 16th, 17th, 18th, up until the 19th century, there were very, very few distinctions between. If you take an architect Some of the great names of architecture and design.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

In the 18th and the 19th century, William Kent, Robert Adam, Thomas Hope, whoever it might be, they were involved in the full gamut of from designing pieces.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Of furniture to designing buildings to designing cities.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And they didn't make any distinction between.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

What they were doing.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

They were just designing. And they were designing some of the.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Most beautiful pieces of furniture ever made. They were designing some of the most beautiful cities ever made, some of the most beautiful buildings ever made.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And so I take inspiration from that. Like, I'm not worried about spreading myself too thin. In a way, from a business perspective, it's maybe not the most intelligent choice these days.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

It can be quite confusing to people. Some people come to me with a.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Certain idea that they think I'm an.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Interior designer, have absolutely no idea that I've designed a building in my life.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

They just don't. They haven't.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

They've read about me through an interiors book or magazine or whatever it might be.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

That's their approach in other people in the world of the sort of Poundbury or the developments or stuff. When they find out, they come for.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

A meeting in our office and as you said, we've got a little shop.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Next door to us in London, which is a fun sideline, if I can put it like that. They're like, ah, what's that? You have shop selling candlesticks, like, what's going on? But I enjoy it. And actually it's really interesting because it also means that from the business perspective, which I know is obviously kind of.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Really a part of your whole engagement.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Here, there's something quite nice about not.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Having all of your eggs in a single basket.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I mean, as we've been chatting about before England, the UK is going through a particular sort of economic cycle, economic political cycle, quite different from probably the economic political cycle that America is currently about to enter, where there's a general.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Sense, I would say at the moment in the uk, there's just a little.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Bit nervousness about the confidence that very.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Well off people would need in order.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

To hover over and then press the button to kind of press ahead with construction for kind of major new private house projects.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

There's just a degree of nervousness in.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

The UK at the moment about increasing taxation and kind of concepts of kind.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Of wealth tax, which would be very.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

New, very unprecedented for us.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

But it's being talked about politically a.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Lot at the moment. I have no idea if it'll happen or not where I would say. And also frankly, with bank interest rates.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

At the levels at which they seem to be settling at the moment. Availability of mortgage is much more expensive and people are moving house less. It's just that simple.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And so that has definitely impacted, not.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

In a negative way.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I mean, we're not struggling, but it's.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Definitely impacted on the number of inquiries that our studio has received over the.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Last 18 months or two years compared to a period which felt incredibly busy before that. We're definitely in a stage of life where we're giving any new inquiry into.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The office these days we treat very seriously.

[Ben Pentreath]

We give it a lot more attention than we were before.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I've always treated. Treated every inquiry into the office with seriousness and a sort of respect because you never quite know how a first.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Little kind of nascent email into the studio is going to lead.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And it's something which I learned really early on is that actually, you know.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Sometimes it's the things which seem to.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Be not necessarily very promising on First Hint or First Arrival that actually turn.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Out to be some of the most wonderful projects that you've ever worked on.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I just don't know. But I will say that I can.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Measure the quantity of inquiries.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And so it's actually rather useful at.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The moment because to have different strands of the practice. I detect that we are entering a period. There is a massive movement in England.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Now, politically, to push new housing schemes.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Through the planning process in a way that if the government achieves what it's.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Talking about, will really be quite unprecedented in my lifetime. And there's something quite intriguing for me at a business perspective, at being in.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

That space as well as in the space of kind of private housing right now, if that makes sense.

[Ben Pentreath]

It does. And there are a couple of different things I want to explore within that. And you and I were talking recently about the shock, playing this wonderful marketing role in a way. Right. And gives you this exposure that you might not otherwise get through all the other projects that you think would be how people would learn of you. But as you say, you never know how people are coming to you, what they think you are when they come to you.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Exactly.

[Ben Pentreath]

But I was also struck. And this is the opportunity that's gonna come out of you being on this show. You're welcome in advance, Ben, is that you are. You are not working a lot in America.

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

[Ben Pentreath]

And I mean.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And that is absolutely true.

[Ben Pentreath]

That is going to change. I am going to open those doors for you in a huge way. And that is.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

We'll be very grateful.

[Ben Pentreath]

Yes.

[Dennis Scully]

But I'm fascinated by that in part because.

[Ben Pentreath]

And you and I were having this whole discussion recently about how the British people have often viewed hiring a designer to come and help them with their home and how not everyone feels comfortable with that. But also I'm curious why the big American projects haven't been a part of your scope with all the great many things that you've been doing.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I mean, partly, I think, just a case.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Well, partly, I would say actually there are many, many great American architects and interior designers.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And I've always been slightly intrigued by why a client would actually engage an English architect. Architect. To design a building in America. But, you know, definitely open to be intrigued and understand that more. I mean, we are doing some projects at the moment in Australia and in New Zealand and there. I'm less intrigued down there because actually, if you want to commission a traditional building in New Zealand, your opportunities to engage an architect who can speak that language in a coherent, authentic way are.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Very, very limited indeed.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And I think in America, obviously it's.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

A very different field. And there's a wonderful tradition in America.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Which has been an unbroken tradition of design, the sort of buildings and interiors that we do. So, you know, time will tell.

[Ben Pentreath]

America's crying out for English interiors they love.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Right?

[Ben Pentreath]

I mean, it's true.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

It is true. And I think that there is something that. Yeah, I mean, we are obviously very well known now in the field of English interior decoration, you know, whatever that means. I actually wrote an article when the.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Book was published, I wrote an article for Country Life magazine on Englishness in design.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And it's a strange thing to kind of put your finger on, but there.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Is something fundamentally, I suppose, about an English interior, a real authentic English interior.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

That is fundamentally slightly undesigned. And so there is something. I can't quite put my finger on it, but when, if you can think about an American client giving an American.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Architect and an American decorator a brief to design a quote, unquote, English style.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

House, we sort of all inherently know at a fundamental level that when that project is delivered, it will not feel in any way, shape or form English.

[Ben Pentreath]

And how so? I mean, unpacking.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Well, that's the mystery of probably doesn't smell right. You know, it probably works too well.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

It's probably.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Ultimately, it's probably there's a degree to which, particularly I think with regard to.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The interior decoration, where it might feel over designed or too comprehensively designed.

[Dennis Scully]

Yes, that's it.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And we were chatting a few days ago about that and that sense that in America a client who is hiring an interior designer might be To a.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Certain extent, nervous about asking to include things that they already own. There's a sense somehow, when I look.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

At beautiful, very coherent American decoration in publications such as Architectural Digest or glossy coffee table books, that there's a sort of sense of total desire that I think that isn't completely how the English.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Kind of design mentality would operate.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I would certainly struggle myself with buying.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Or specifying every last object in someone's house.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And a lot of our work, we're.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Working in some of the houses in the book. We're working with people who have got.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Got fantastic collections, wonderful furniture, wonderful books.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Paintings, whatever it might be, which maybe they've inherited or maybe they've assembled.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And I'm very used to working with.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Clients who've got quite strong ideas about what they like and what they don't like.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And I actually love that sort of engagement and bouncing back across with one another. I sometimes say to people coming into our office, it's a little bit like.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Entering the tasting kitchen in a restaurant.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I mean, we have a distinct flavor. But I really want to know what.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Ingredients you like and dislike before I start cooking your dinner, if that makes sense.

[Dennis Scully]

It does. And I was so fascinated by the.

[Ben Pentreath]

Exercise that you described for me recently. I mean, tell me about that.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

With some of our projects in the early days, instead of presenting individual schemes or group schemes. And I know that these days, it used to be sort of 20 years ago, it used to be that everyone spent a long time wrapping bits of.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Fabric around foam core and cardboard and.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Sort of kind of collating them in a sort of collage, a sort of mosaic collage, and pinning them to boards.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Which would be presented.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

These days, the fashion in England, and I think probably in America, is you have trays. You know, it's the same sort of thing. It's kind of slightly less work for an intern, but nonetheless, it's sort of.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

You're presenting on your tray.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

So there's something about that grid, the rectangle that, you know, I know that this is how most designers like to operate, where they sort of.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

You know, they might say that they're.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Taking a visual or a written brief from the client, but then they're sort of basically fundamentally giving a lot of.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Thought, a lot of focus, thought as.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

To kind of, this color goes with this color goes with this one. And, you know, this is going to be the lead fabric, obviously, in the.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I'm sorry to say it, but in the age of Instagram or social media, nothing stays new or original for more than a second. These Days, like images hurtle around.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I see an image on Instagram one.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Week and then kind of three weeks later, I'm seeing it 50 times or whatever.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

It's so weird, this deep saturation of ideas. So even if you think you found something that is not overused and a bit tired and a little bit shabby, it's kind of like, guess what? By the time you finish that piece of upholstery, you'll have seen it a thousand times. But there's that sort of sense that people will build three palettes for a.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Client to choose from.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Scheme A, scheme B, scheme D, scheme C, and sort of take your pick.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Do you want this one, this one or this one?

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I've never actually felt very comfortable by that degree of didactic control, if that makes sense. I'm sort of not that type of person.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I mean, to a certain extent, you.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Could, if I was being very cynical.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

It'S actually not true, but to a certain extent, I actually genuinely don't care very much.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I mean, it's sort of decoration. Like, it is actually temporal.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

It should change.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Interior design is not something that was.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Carved on tablets and brought down from.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

The mountain by Moses.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Okay.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

But there are one or two probably particularly American interior designers I think we could both think of, who probably feel that they have arrived from the mountain after a brief conversation with God about what someone's living room should look like. So, in contrast, what I love to do is to actually try to understand, really early days of conversations about what people like and dislike, and then I'm really thinking about what the building might.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Like or dislike as well. Absolutely crucial in the whole mix. And I quite like to start with.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

A massive pile of ideas that I think might be ideas that might be intriguing. And I have absolutely no idea where they might end up. So I'm not being at all specific.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

When I have a huge pile of.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Fabrics or wallpaper, well, obviously wallpaper, it's going to end up on a wall, but I couldn't tell you if it's.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Going to end up in the wall.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Of the drawing room or the bedroom or whatever.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I'm not thinking that specifically at this stage. This is me laying out a list of ingredients that we might potentially use to cook with. And it's like, do you like this type of vegetable or that type of.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Vegetable kind of thing?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And what I often find is that.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

We'Re then putting ideas and concepts in front of people's eyes, which they would.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Never have dreamt of having on their.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Own, but some of which they'll really.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

React to positively, and some of which.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

They'Ll react to negatively.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And I find that an awful lot of my role as an interior designer is actually teasing out from people ideas.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

That they have had in their heads about how they would like to live. But they lack the confidence of knowing.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Whether something is going to work or not work.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And that lack of confidence, left to their own devices would lead to decisions that are actually bland and anonymous and impersonal, because they're worried about failure. And they'd rather risk nothing than risk failure, if you see what I mean. And so a lot of my role.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

In that process is to actually draw out, intentionally draw out sort of contrast.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And different energy, and then from there we can sort of build a scheme. It's a funny thing because it's an art, it's not a science. One of the houses which I put in my book, which is one of the projects I loved the most and had the most wonderful time working on.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

It'S a big country house in Dorset called Chattel.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

When I first went there, there it.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Had been up for sale for the.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

First time in about 400 years or 300 years. And they won the bidding process.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And I was engaged, and we got.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Going, and we were beginning to kind.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Of start all of our ideas and all of our thinking for the architectural.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Restoration and the interiors and all the rest of it. And as that process developed, they suddenly realized, or no, not suddenly, gradually realized.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

That they were in for something far.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Too deep financially than they had factored in. And learning that you have made a mistake or that you're taking a project down the wrong route and having the guts to say so. But he did that and he sold the house. And by a very, very curious twist.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Of fate, I then got engaged about six months later to become the interior designer to the new couple who had then bought the house.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

But they had very different taste, and they were totally at the opposite ends.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Of their kind of lives. You know, they were in their late.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

50S and the first couple were in their 20s, you know. And if the first couple had bought the house, it would have had Tracy Emin Neons, and it would have had shabby chic, and it would have, you know, it would have had a complete, completely different atmosphere. And I often tell that story to people when I'm working with them, and I'm trying to tell them that they.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Are the most important people in the most important ingredient in the mix. It's not actually the house. Like, in both instances, the house has been perfectly respected.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Like the first couple would have done.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

An impeccable job of restoring the house.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

No doubt about would have been the.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Same house, the same me.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I was going to be steering through their aesthetic in both situation and both projects.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

You would have then been able to identify as a Ben Pentreath project. But they would have been completely different projects.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And that's because the owners, the clients.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Or patrons or whatever you want to call them are different.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

They're individuals and their taste and sense of taste is the most important thing.

[Dennis Scully]

We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Ernesta. Ernesta's designer quality custom size rugs are the foundation to an elevated space. Help your clients transform their homes by joining Ernesta's trade program. As a member of the Ernesto trade program, you'll get preferred pricing, free unlimited 12x12 samples and dedicated services such as a personal account, manager, manager and a trade only website. To learn more about joining this exclusive program, head to ernesta.com boh that's ernesta.com boh and now back to the show.

[Ben Pentreath]

You said that in each case you'd be able to see your hand in in it. And I wonder because some designers, the work is the same and you have no sense of the client. And let's be honest, right? Yes, you have no idea. But what you were just describing is that you would very clearly see the two different clients in this projects, but you would also see your hand in some way. And how do you think your. As you were just describing your guidance or the role that you. How does it show up, do you think in your work? Because there's one specific project I want to ask you about in that context.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I suppose that the more projects I've worked on over the years, they begin to add up to a broad narrative where you can unpick kind of themes.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

That run across a lot of those projects.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Which in a way in the book is what I was actually trying to kind of of understand.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

What is it that connects the decoration of a drawing room with the design of a town square?

[Unknown Speaker 2]

You know, because that's also part of my kind of late megamix of, you know, how do I make sense of.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

All of these things? And so these ideas of.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I can't remember what any of my.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Little mini chapter headings were at the.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Beginning of the book, but a sense of history, a sense of character, a sense of color, authenticity, these sorts of words. I mean, I always like to work with the history of a building or a place.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

There's a powerful narrative there that can.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Take it in a million different ways. Having said that, I don't really feel very comfortable working in historicist styles of decoration. I work very comfortably in historicist styles of architecture show. But in interior decoration, for me, actually it is something which is more.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I'm happy to paint a room any colour.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I don't actually care what colour it could have been painted in 1780, if you see what I mean. It doesn't.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

It.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Right, it doesn't. It's a little bit of a cop.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Out in a way, like at a deep philosophical level.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I'm actually much more of a modernist in decoration, which is ultimately a kind of private art.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Leaping right back to the very first.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Conversation, you know, the beginning of this conversation.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

You know, I love to mix contemporary furniture, antique furniture, contemporary paintings, antique wallpapers, whatever it might be. I love that conversation that is created through history by putting old things and new things and old ideas and new ideas together.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And I love playing that game within the privacy of somebody's own interior. You can do whatever you like. As far as I'm concerned, there are no limits at all within an urban environment. I think that I like buildings to.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Be much more background, much quieter, much.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Calmer, much more reticent, much politer, kind of much more civic because they are going to be there for a very long time and people are going to.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Experience them who have no choice whether.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

They want to experience them or not. And I changed my ideas on decoration. You know, it is. That's the whole point of it. You can have fun.

[Ben Pentreath]

Well, exactly. And I think that there is. So there, I think there always is an element of fun in your work. But as you also were saying earlier, there is this lack of needing to have a certain level of polish or it feeling like it's done every detail. So funny enough, there's an image in your book, right? Okay, so you don't remember the headers sometimes, but it was in the Regency Fireworks. It was the Wiltshire house, right?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Absolutely.

[Ben Pentreath]

Okay, so on page 179 of your book is this extraordinary living room with this wonderfully colorful ottoman right between all of this furniture. And there's amazing ceiling work that's been done in this room. And there's incredible pieces of furniture. And to your point, it's all mixed. There's mahogany, historical pieces and then contemporary pieces. Anyway, what caught the eye and the fascination of magazine editors and numerous people was a here was this photograph where on this ottoman there's some object that's actually wrapped in bubble wrap or plastic or something. And then the sofa cushion isn't all, like, fluffed up, it's all clearly down. And so people are wondering, oh, my God, how did this image even get in the book? It's not. It's not finished. Like, how did he overlook that? But clearly it was. You saw the image, you put it in the book. And the thing that was wrapped in bubble wrap or whatever on the table, you saw that. And that was obviously part of that family. That family is living there, right?

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I'm not sure. I'm not sure I have noticed the bubble wrap.

[Ben Pentreath]

Well, I mean, maybe you didn't, but it's. But it's caught the eye of many people and to the point that I was literally. I was instructed. Instructed to ask you about it. I was instructed to inquire.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

But one of the photographs. One of the photographs in the book is someone's kitchen and it's got a giant inflatable shark wedged in underneath the kitchen islands. And I've had a few questions about that one as well. So my theory, when I'm taking photographs of houses, I'm going to look up the bubble wrap.

[Ben Pentreath]

Yeah, look it up, look it up. But it is. It is funny because.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Oh, yeah, there it is. Exactly. Yeah, that'll be. Yeah, I didn't. I. Yes, that's. That was all just part of the board games and the kind of, you know, the boxes and all the rest of it. So I have a theory that. Which is quite. Which is very carried out when I'm taking photographs of interiors. I don't like to do masses and.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Masses of kind of moving things around and editing.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Now that you point out the bubble wrap, I might have made the effort to take that off. I think that. I think I took that photograph towards the end of the day.

[Dennis Scully]

It shows you the attention that people are paying to your work, Ben.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And it also demonstrates my rigorous attention to detail. But actually, one of the fascinating things for me about producing the book was.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The process of actually taking all the photographs, which was a massive learning exercise.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Exercise. I realized quite early on that I was going to struggle to engage a professional photographer to help on the projects because they were so diverse in their character and in their geography. That finding a photographer to take photographs of interiors is one thing, finding a photographer to take photographs of modern and architectural environments is another thing. Finding somebody who's comfortable in both worlds is really quite tough. And I struggled to find somebody who understood capturing the atmosphere of some of.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The town building projects at the same time as houses and interiors.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And I realized that basically I was going to have to kind of learn.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

How to do a lot of this myself.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And so as I went through the projects, I realized that quite a few.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Of our houses over the years have.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Been photographed professionally by very great interiors photographers. But what I realized is there's a sort of slightly bombastic, dogmatic kind of quality to a lot of interiors photography, where they will bring their camera in.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Place the tripod exactly where they want.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

It, and then spend the next kind of two hours moving everything around in.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Homage to the position of the tripod, which the photographer set at the beginning. I have been on shoots with multiple assistants where literally hours get spent where sofas are moved an inch or two further back. Everything is positioned and composed for this kind of. And it's almost like the camera is.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Like, I don't know, Louis XIV Sun King or something like.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And everything is kind of being positioned to kind of worship the camera position.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And if you are on your own in a house taking photographs of an interior, you actually just don't have the luxury of all of that kind of.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Pushing and pulling and poking. It's incredibly exhausting, incredibly slow.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And actually, the really weird thing is.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

At the end of the day, you.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Create an energy, and a photograph is a very weird representation of reality. You know, you really, really learn as you take a photograph how incredibly sophisticated human sight is by comparison to a camera.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Just the fact that we have two.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Lenses, you know, the fact that we have, you know, our two art eyes, which. Which bring in a huge amount of information. The fact that you can simultaneously see things in the near foreground and in the far distance and there's no focal issues. The fact that I can look out of the window and see kind of buildings in the distance, but my kind of.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I can also read the tone of the room inside and so on and so forth.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Like, the human brain and I are.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Incredibly sophisticated at deep at processing information.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

In a way, that camera is incredibly crude at doing so. But one of the things which I.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Learned is that, therefore, what you're trying.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

To do as the photographer is to.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Capture the atmosphere of what a place is like, really.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And the best thing you can do is to gently kind of let your camera move around. And I came up with a basic.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Rule that I didn't touch anything.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

If it was okay, I photograph it as I found it. In retrospect, I probably should have taken the bubble wrap off. But then the bubble wrap, that ottoman, is part of the informality of that.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

House, in a sense. There are some of the projects which are More inherently composed.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

But in very, very few of the projects in the book was I pimping anything. In virtually none of them that I can think of was I bringing things in. But there's definitely a narrative. I mean, I know the order in which I photograph photographed the buildings and the houses and the places. And as time went on, I became softer and softer and more and more.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Reticent in my approach. Less didactic, less bombastic, and actually got a lot more nimble at capturing the place as well.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Like, I could spend, you know, much less time and actually be able to.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Impart much more information.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Because it's all to do with realizing.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

That the camera is not the kind of powerful thing.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

The camera's actually the weak thing in the mix.

[Ben Pentreath]

Well, I wonder, and you've talked about this a bit, the process of putting this book together, and you've joked about the many delays involved in putting the book together, but also the sort of extraordinary undertaking required. But how one look looks back on their work and the decisions that you made at various projects right over the years, and you see how your work evolved. I wonder what you walked away understanding better or thinking about with both your work and career.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I'm at a sort of an interesting time. I've been working for 20 years. If I was a certain type of person, I could say, well, I've got.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Another 20 years or 30 years to.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Work if I wanted to.

[Ben Pentreath]

Are you that person?

[Unknown Speaker 2]

No, I'm not. I'm actually genuinely not. Because I have quite a strong feeling that an awful lot of architects like.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

To think of themselves, that the older.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

They get, the better they get.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And I'm not sure that's true.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I think that there is a moment at which one's interest and sort of like joie de vivre or sense of excitement at life, and that the challenges.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Of life can begin to diminish a little bit.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And I think there's a sense at which.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

There's just sometimes a sense at which.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

It'S good to change the pace of.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Your life and not pretend that you.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Need to kind of like, be this.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Very controlling, dominating person forever and ever and ever and ever.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And so I definitely do not feel that I want to carry on at.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The same sort of pace as I.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Have been at the moment for as long as I have been so far. I really do feel that quite strongly. I think looking back at things teaches.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

You what's important, what's less important.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And, I mean, it's fascinating being up here in Orkney and beginning to think about the house up here and how we're going to do things slowly. And unlike when I was first decorating the parsonage down in Dorset, where that was very much. That was sort of 18, 18, 17 years ago at the start of my career, you know, we're now tackling a house, I won't say at the end of my career at all, but, you know, kind of in the, in the second half, if I can put it like that. And I'm definitely feeling our approach up.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Here will be, I think, a lot gentler, a lot quieter, a lot more sort of like.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I mean, I'm increasingly less worried about.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Things being designed, if that makes sense, particularly when it comes to interactions.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

This particular house has got a very.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Very quiet, reticent energy, which it was interesting how the parsonage wanted color and pattern and in a way this house doesn't.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And maybe that's just me going through.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

A slightly different phase of life. I'm not sure.

[Ben Pentreath]

Well, I mean, it's interesting in part because we've been talking recently about succession. My colleague Fre wrote an extensive piece about talking to different firms. David Kleinberg, who tried to figure out a succession plan for his firm, and it didn't really work out as he had hoped or intended. And it's very challenging for many designers to step away or architects to construct a plan that will allow someone else to take over in the future. And I don't know, I mean, it feels like. And you know, I was. I just had the pleasure of celebrating your birthday with you in New York.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ben Pentreath]

So I was thinking about your age and sort of where you are in your career. And I wondered, and it sounds like you are, if you were thinking about. Okay, you know, it doesn't have to be this intense.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Exactly. I began to think about this quite intensely a few years ago and I've talked about it a little bit with.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

People, but it was a definition, definite.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Sad moment in my life where my mum had an unexpected heart attack and died. And my father needed a lot of.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Care and attention and love, which my.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Brothers and I gave him. I mean, obviously there was the sort of. To a certain extent, there was just.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The shock of mum dying.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And then sadly, but rather beautifully in.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Its way, like literally within a month.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Matter of weeks, my dad died. Really not very long after my mother had died.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

After 50 plus years of being married.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And being together, in a way, he just couldn't really cope without her. It was a rather wonderful thing. But then I had another whole period where I was kind of Needing to at that moment, look after myself, as it were. And, and that was now about five years ago. And there was a really crazy moment for me on a professional journey which those two events nearly almost simultaneously made me reflect on in a way that I think if it hadn't happened in quite the way, it might have taken me a little bit longer to realize the reality, reality of life. And at that time, without a shadow of a doubt, almost every single decision.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

In the office in some way, shape or form was coming back and landing on my desk.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

It was just how things were. And suddenly, at a minute's notice, my mum died on a Sunday night at 9 o'clock in the evening and on the Monday morning, instead of me being in London as planned, you know, running.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The whole show and being center of.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

The whole thing, you know what?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I wasn't there.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And I wasn't there for weeks and weeks and weeks. I was intermittently there, but really hardly at all. And obviously I was already wrapped in.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

A lot of love and support from the studio and from clients and, you.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Know, all sorts of stuff, stuff. But what was absolutely fascinating is that during that entire process, absolutely nothing missed a beat. And I don't mind admitting that it was at the end of that process.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

As I was coming back into the office and reconnecting and realizing that and.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Having been set up in a system where, as I said, every single decision.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Was in some degree or another landing.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

On my desk, which made me a.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Very crucial spoke to the wheel, a.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Very important, distant person, I suddenly realized that I was utterly dispensable at a certain point. And I also realized another thing, that.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I had grown the practice to a.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Scale where it also was beginning to develop a life of its own and attract talent of its own and create.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Systems of its own. It had its own culture.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And I think it really put that starkly into focus for me in a rather beautiful way. I was like, okay, this is really good.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And so I actually asked my accountants to just prepare a document for me.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

To discuss different ways of what happens.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Next type of thing.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Because one of the things I was absolutely certain of is that the earlier I thought about about it, the calmer and more processed and more successful any succession would be. And in there was a very interesting setup by the government quite a few years ago now in England called an employee ownership Trust, which allows somebody like me in any sphere of life who's created their own company to divest ownership.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

From the individual into the company as a whole.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And the reason the government is really wanting to support that is because there is a strong amount of evidence that businesses where employees have a sense of.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Ownership of the company while they work within the company actually prosper better than those which don't.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And so to cut a very long story short, that was the method that I then set up. And I guess about two or three years later, two or three years ago, I took the company down that route. So it's actually now owned by a trust. I'm obviously kind of found a trustee. But there will be a moment where I pull away from the trust and.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

There will be a moment where the company has effectively, over a very long period of time, paid me back for.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

The value which was set by the.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

HMRC when we did the company valuation. At which point I will actually no.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Longer have any, as it were, financial.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Interest in the company.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I'm just a normal employee.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I'm currently just a normal employee now.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Just like I everyone else. And I think of all of the.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Different metrics that I could look at.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

To create a place where effectively a collaborative approach can outlive my departure, that was the one that I could see that would be most robust for the long term engender, kind of least rivalries or jealousies or those sorts of issues that can bubble up in firms with succession. And I think in order for that to succeed, actually there must be a moment which we still need to work.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Out exactly when that is. But there must be a moment at which I stand back and begin to.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Stand back and sort of make it clear that I'm beginning to stand back. And so that process is just very, very gently underway.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And so that's quite exciting for me.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

To think that we've sort of got to a point where the trust is now set up and will exist. There is a definite sense of which.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I'm highly conscious that there will. There really will be a moment sooner.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Than I care to imagine where I know that the firm, the practice, the.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Studio, the philosophy, the kind of, you.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Know, the nugget of what we are about, will be led more successfully, kind of not by me. I think will actually be one of the best gifts that I can give.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

To the longevity of the practice.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Because it's all about letting the next.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Generation, who I'm carefully focused on at.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

The moment, kind of have the time and the space, crucially to kind of prosper and do what they need to do. One of the first updates which I.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Think will be happening later this year.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Is that the name of the studio is just ever so slightly going to shift.

[Ben Pentreath]

I Wonder.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And it'll be goodbye to Ben and hello to Pantry Studio. But I think that, again, it's all part of. I mean, we had a whole discussion.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Within the office about kind of just.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Losing that name entirely. It's no skin off my nose. Do we call ourselves traditional architectural design? And then everyone thought, on balance, when.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I was chatting to all of the directors, I was like.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

They were like, that seems like kind of quite an easy way to just put your reputation through the treasure, in a way.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

What's the point in that?

[Unknown Speaker 2]

We've built a strong reputation and that's nice to continue to reference, but I.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Think that very much, increasingly, I will.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Be trying to create a world in which less of the personality is about me.

[Ben Pentreath]

Well, but you've built this tremendous brand equity, and so there is a lot behind Pentrif. There is a lot of meaning and value behind it. And. And so I think that's a very clever way to continue and to work towards. So this is big, and I'm excited about this for you. And as I say, we're gonna check back in with you and see how it's progressing. Absolutely, yes. Ben, it's been an immense pleasure speaking with you, and I thank you so much for the time.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I've absolutely loved it. Apart from that plastic B.

[Dennis Scully]

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us [e-mail] where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a [e-mail] if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.