Corey Damen Jenkins is all in on everything

Summary

Podcast Summary: “Corey Damen Jenkins is all in on everything”

Business of Home Podcast – Host: Dennis Scully | Guest: Corey Damen Jenkins
Date: October 13, 2025

---

Overview

In this episode, Dennis Scully sits down with acclaimed interior designer Corey Damen Jenkins. The interview follows Corey’s remarkable journey from being laid off in the automotive industry during the 2008 Great Recession to becoming a celebrated designer with a MasterClass, two published books, and high-profile media and licensing deals. Themes discussed include perseverance through adversity, the evolution of Corey’s design business, industry gatekeeping, the impact of design media, and cultivating a legacy rooted in generosity and inclusion.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Resilience and Reinvention During Hard Times

[02:43-09:23]

• Corey’s design business was born out of necessity after being laid off during the automotive collapse in Michigan.
• He reflects on the fortitude required to pursue interior design, especially when familial support was absent and the industry was conservative and competitive.
• Corey’s story famously includes knocking on 779 doors before landing his first client:
  “I said, okay, let me just start afresh. … And then I set about knocking on the 779 doors. I had set a goal for myself of 1,000 doors.” — Corey, [11:21]
• Perseverance paid off with a life-changing project, eventually landing him opportunities with HGTV:
  “At the 779th door, a wonderful couple ... invited me in, offered me a cup of coffee and a scone ... That home, got it professionally photographed ... three weeks later ... the HGTV casting executives discovered my work and then cast me on my first television show.” — Corey, [13:07]

2. Building a Career Amid Gatekeeping and Skepticism

[14:00-16:14]

• Corey recounts the lack of mentorship and gatekeeping within Michigan’s design community:
  “... the old guard of interior design, they saw me as basically a fad. ... There’s a tremendous amount of gatekeeping.” — Corey, [14:00]
• Despite being dismissed as a "fad" and struggling for referrals, he pressed on, dedicated his book to his first clients, and stressed the importance of relentless outreach.

3. Establishing a Design Identity and Client Relationships

[17:13-19:46]

• Early work was diverse out of necessity; Corey refined his creative vision by focusing on building a cohesive brand:
  “If a designer designs everything, then they stand for nothing.” — Corey, [17:30]
• He navigated the prevalence of neutral trends in Michigan despite his maximalist instincts, highlighting the tension between personal style and client demand.

4. Transition to the NY Market & Kips Bay Breakthrough

[20:27-25:15]

• A combination of national features and show house involvement catalyzed Corey’s expansion to New York, with the 2019 Kips Bay Decorator Show House marking a major turning point:
  “We were given the library on the parlor level … it was a huge deal to be in what I believe is the Met Gala of show houses here in the United States.” — Corey, [23:11]
• He now serves as a trustee for Kips Bay, underlining his commitment to giving back:
  “We do what we do to help serve the needs of our nearly 12,000 kids at our clubs in the Bronx and New York City.” — Corey, [23:11]

5. Business Philosophy: The “Mariah Carey Principle”

[25:56-33:25]

• Corey lays out his clear fee structure and approach to client management: “My job is not to save you money. My job is to help you spend your money wisely.” — Corey, [25:56]
• He cautions against underpricing and undervaluing the range of work designers do, advocating for billing not just for design, but implementation, likening it to a songwriter paid for writing, recording, and performing: “Why are you only charging a flat fee for just writing the music? You should be billing hourly for making the music to bring it to life … That’s the Mariah Carey principle.” — Corey, [32:47]

6. Media, MasterClass, and Content Strategy

[33:25-38:26]

• Corey credits his first Rizzoli book for leading to his high-profile MasterClass and relishes the brand reach from new media platforms: “MasterClass came about by way of my first Rizzoli book… It was aired on Delta for ... a year and a half … being viewed by between 7 and 10 million passengers a month.” — Corey, [33:56]
• His new book, Design Reimagined, is notable for launching alongside a companion YouTube streaming series, which quickly outperformed expectations.
• He emphasizes the continuing appeal of print, despite industry skepticism: “Long live print. ... People still love books.” — Corey, [38:26]
• The timely integration of print, streaming, and social media has expanded opportunities and client reach.

7. On Brand Building & Strategic Partnerships

[41:23-44:14]

• Corey discusses his careful selection of product licensing partners (such as iHoltz) and the importance of nurturing meaningful partnerships over broad but shallow engagements.
• International opportunities and active travel schedules highlight his global reach and growing influence.

8. Personal Resilience, Leadership, and Team Culture

[44:14-48:56]

• Corey credits his relentless work to a passionate love for design, the support of his husband Adam, and strong team culture: “I am all in with everything I do… When you empower your teammates to share the microphone, it takes nothing away from you as the lead vocalist.” — Corey, [47:06]
• Delegation and trusting staff are crucial for managing a sprawling business and personal life.

9. Vulnerability, Legacy, and Lifting Others

[48:56-54:36]

• Corey opens up about family rejection after coming out, reminding listeners that outward success never tells the full story: “When I came out to my parents, they disowned me … I haven’t had my family on either side except for one biological aunt all these years.” — Corey, [52:34]
• He wants his legacy to be one of inclusion and generosity: “I want to leave a legacy that is encouraging to others … holding open the doors of opportunity.” — Corey, [51:25]
• Offers a memorable metaphor for optimism: “Life will always have a torn corner, but you still have three great corners to lean into.” — Corey, [50:32]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Pushing Through Rejection:
  “I went through a ton of rejections. … I had one situation, actually, a couple of situations where people let their dogs out to chase me off the property.” — Corey, [11:58]

• On Client Education:
  “No one loses more money faster than those who are trying to not spend money. … This is a luxury business, and it’s not a must-have.” — Corey, [26:06]

• On Legal Protection:
  “It’s important to have a really solid LOA in writing to protect yourself as a designer. ... We found that the biggest time sucks were where we did not enforce our contract.” — Corey, [30:28]

• On Delegation:
  “I let the team do their thing, and that’s how I’m able to get, I think, so much done.” — Corey, [48:22]

• On Perspective:
  “Broken crayons still color. Delays do not mean denial.” — Corey, [48:56]

• On Family:
  “You may not have all the people that you were supposed to have in your orbit from a biological standpoint, but you can amass an army of advocates and loves and allies.” — Corey, [53:34]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:43] – Reflections on surviving and thriving through economic upheaval
• [05:15] – Early career in automotive industry and the tough transition to design
• [11:21] – The legendary “779 doors” story
• [13:07] – Landing first clients and the break with HGTV
• [14:00] – Discussing Michigan’s gatekeeping and a lack of support
• [20:29] – Moving into the New York market and the impact of the Kips Bay Show House
• [25:56] – The “not here to save you money” philosophy
• [32:47] – The Mariah Carey Principle for service-based billing
• [33:56] – The origin and impact of Corey’s MasterClass
• [38:26] – Print books, YouTube and modern design media strategy
• [41:23] – Strategic partnerships and the global expansion of Corey’s brand
• [44:14] – Corey’s travel, teamwork, and personal routines for stamina
• [48:56] – Vulnerability about family and the significance of chosen family
• [51:25] – Legacy: keeping doors open for others

---

Conclusion

This episode of Business of Home is a masterclass in resilience, reinvention, and the power of remaining “all in” as a creative and entrepreneur. Corey Damen Jenkins offers a candid, inspiring look at the real challenges beneath outward success, the non-negotiables for building a strong design firm, and the importance of leaving a legacy based on generosity and inclusivity. His memorable metaphors and actionable advice make this a standout episode for designers and creatives at any stage of their journey.

Transcript

[Dennis Scully]

This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking to leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is interior designer Corey Damon Jenkins. Corey's design career famously started in 2008 when he vowed to knock on 800 doors to find a client in the middle of the Great recession. On the 779th door, he found one. Since then, client by client, project by project, Corey has risen to the top of the industry. He's one of a handful of designers with a masterclass. He's on the El Decor A list and the AD100 and his second book, Design Reimagined, just hit shelves. I spoke with Cory about how the Kips Bay Show House launched his career, why he tries to run his business on what he calls the Mariah Carey principle, and why he's all in on everything he does. This podcast is sponsored by laloy. This month, laloy is hosting a slate of Can't Miss Design events at High Point Market, including a book signing for Amy Astley, Editor in Chief of Architectural Digestive, and a keynote panel moderated by House Beautiful's Joe Salz, with laloy collaborators Leanne Ford, Amber Lewis, Anna Bond, Julia Markham and Jean Stouffer. Learn [e-mail] that's L O L O I rugs.com and follow Laloi Rugs on Instagram and TikTok. This podcast is sponsored by Hector Finch Lighting. For more than 30 years, Hector Finch has been making British manufactured decorative lighting for the design community worldwide. The brand is known for clean lines, a less is more philosophy and impeccable craftsmanship. Working with the finest European techniques and materials, mouth blown glass, hand thrown ceramics and alabaster, Hector Finch produces high specification lighting beloved by designers around the globe. Hector Finch is available in all 50 states and is represented in all major North American markets. And their dedicated team is on hand to discuss customizations and deliver a friendly personal service tailored to the needs of designers. Visit hectorfinch.com and follow Hector Finch lighting on Instagram. And now, on with the show.

So Corey, as you were just mentioning, interestingly enough, the last time we had you on the show, we thought, right, it was just as Covid was just taking hold of our great nation and we thought, Corey, naively, what did we know in those times? We thought we were headed towards this terrible recession, the world was going to close up. And so we had brought you on to be sage counsel to guide us through that time. Knowing that you had faced so many challenges of your own during the great financial crisis. And we thought, surely, Corey Damon Jenkins will tell us how we're going to get through this. And then things turned out very differently.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Yeah, we survived.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I think in your case, you did a lot more than survive. I think you're the example of survive and thrive that we talk about a great deal on the show. But let's go back and talk about why we had wanted to have you on the show to tell all that you had been through that was going to help prepare us. And listen, perhaps we should get ourselves prepared for another. Right?

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Who knows?

[Dennis Scully]

Who knows what's coming now?

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

So, you know, it's so funny, Dennis, is that I found that with my career with this design firm, it has made the biggest leaps when the world was falling apart around it. Like, I launched the firm during the Great Recession, as you mentioned, then I moved the firm wholesale from Michigan to New York during the pandemic. So I don't need to see another cataclysmic moment to see more movement with my firm. Please, universe, don't misinterpret what I'm saying. But I do think there's something to be said for creatives and business people taking unfortunate circumstances by the horns and doing their best to reimagine the pathway forward when times seem bleak.

[Dennis Scully]

It is really remarkable. And each time you seem to come out stronger and better and more successful. But let's talk about. I mean, and again, forgive me for bringing up painful memories for you right away in the conversation, but the story of the knocking on the 779 doors is this remarkable story. But let's. Let's go back even further and talk about what you had been doing and what you thought your life was going to be.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Yeah, absolutely. I had established a solid career in the automotive business sector in Michigan. You know, we make cars there for GM and Chrysler, and I was working as a purchasing agent for the Big three, as a. With one of their tier one companies. And that was after I had made a diversion from interior design that was my original love. Back in the mid-1990s, after studying architecture and falling in love with the brand, my father was vehemently against me becoming an interior designer. I think he felt, okay, we're gonna let this kid get this out of his system, and then, you know, we.

[Dennis Scully]

Will let him pursue this for a little while.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Yeah, it's a phase. He'll work through it. And then when it didn't, you know, phase out, he was like, okay, no, son of Mine is going to be an interior decorator. That's just simply not happening. And I'm glad in a way that I listened to his advice as far as, you know, embracing business, because in working with the Big Three for 10 years as a purchasing agent, as a buyer of materials, I did learn how to manage these multimillion dollar budgets, you know, and how to handle suppliers and difficult conversations and negotiations. And I found that those tools were very beneficial for me in running my design firm, obviously. But I will admit that I really did believe that I was going to basically ret, you know, from that career as a business purchasing agent in the business sector for automotive. And then when 2007 came along, in October of 2007, that's when I got the unfortunate red slip that I had been laid off. And that was just the beginning of the whole downfall of that part of our industry in Michigan, because Michigan, pretty much their main focus is making cars, right? So it was very difficult to launch a design firm in a state that is pretty much focused on one industry. So the idea of launching a design firm in the midst of a Great Recession in a very conservative state where people are so humble and don't want to show off their financials, that was a tough order.

[Dennis Scully]

And when you, when you got the layoff notice, tell me about the thinking process to say, okay, because you had.

Gotten an internship, if I recall, at a design.

Right back when you first got out of school, when you were 19 or something, right?

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Absolutely. Yep. Had done all of that. I had worked for a commercial design firm renovating Italian Renaissance hotels in Brooklyn, New York City, Manhattan. And so I had a foothold there. And to have it kind of snatched away from me was devastating. But it was, I think, a bit more devastating when I lost my job in the Great Recession, because at that point, I had literally postponed my own dreams for 10 years to follow the directives of other people who told me that they knew me better than I knew myself. And then for that to kind of blow up in my face with the layoffs through no fault of my own. That's not my fault. It's not anyone's fault. It's just the way how the industry was collapsing at the time. But still I had. I strive to be a very loyal person, Dennis, in everything I do. You know, I'm an Aries. We are. We're leaders. We are very committed to, you know, getting things done. Once we attach ourselves to a mission, we are all in. And so I was all in, in developing my career in the Automotive industry, the business side of it. And so when that came to an end without my permission.

[Dennis Scully]

I did not approve that decision to let go of me.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

So that was difficult. And I was angry. I laid in bed literally for two weeks, Dennis, not feeling sorry for myself, but just really angry at the world that I had done it the right way, as my father had told me to, and it still didn't work out. And I invested all that time and built all those relationships with all those hundreds of suppliers and people and networks, and to not be able to use any of it now because everyone was losing their jobs around me.

[Dennis Scully]

I mean, for anyone who's been laid off, and the lovely Mrs. Gulley was laid off during the great financial crisis. So we're no strange in our house. And it changes your whole life.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

It does.

[Dennis Scully]

So tell me how you came out of that process and decided to have the great fun time of trying to present yourself as a designer in this climate.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Well, the one thing that I had learned in working as a buyer for the Big Three was the necessity of presenting oneself with a package of opportunities. When you are pitching to a client a product, you have to have a package, something that can show what you want to do in a very concise, comprehensive way. And so once I realized I wanted to go back to interior design, I said, I'm going to put together a comprehensive package of presentations, color boards, renderings, floor plans, to kind of showcase what I could do as an interior designer. Now, I had done some commercial design for the Big Three, and part of my responsibilities as a buyer was to select and design lobbies, executive offices, basically picking out furniture, you know, light stuff. But that portfolio was not strong enough to show to a residential client, so I couldn't use any of that portfolio. So I said, okay, let me just start afresh. And since I did not have a residential portfolio of my own, that was my own work, I decided to go ahead and just do some beautiful hand drawn renderings of what I could do. And then I set about knocking on the 779 doors. Right. I had set a goal for myself of 1000 doors. I went to Enterprise and I asked them for a Chrysler 300 black sedan. Because I knew that most of my customers I was going to come in contact with in greater Detroit were probably going to be connected in some way, shape or form to Ford, GM or Chrysler. And I had a Volvo and I had a white Honda Accord. And so none of those two vehicles would suit.

[Dennis Scully]

You couldn't show up in your foreign car.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

No, exactly. That would have been an absolute disaster. And then I started knocking on doors. And if I saw a house being constructed, Dennis, Or I saw a hotel being renovated, I would pull up there with my little satchel of sketches and drawings and color boards, and I'd go out there and knock on those doors. I would ask for the resident architect, the homeowner, whoever, the gc. And that was obviously very difficult. I went through a ton of rejections. Lots of doors slammed in my face. I had one situation, actually, a couple of situations where people let their dogs out to chase me off the property.

[Dennis Scully]

So literally, people, like, let the dogs loose to get you off the property?

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Yeah. I got real up and close and personal with a husky that had a blue eye and a green eye. And I had no business having that much up close personal detail.

[Dennis Scully]

You did not want to be as close as that.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Yeah, those are some colorways I do not need to have access to. You know, I had some people call me some very unsavory names as well that I can't repeat on your broadcast. And then there were people who did invite me in to just drain me of all my ideas. And then when I would present the letter of agreement, they would ghost. So after that experience kind of. Kind of wore on me. This is in the dead of winter, by the way. So you're also. It's not great weather. So you're driving up to these homes, you're walking.

[Dennis Scully]

The Michigan winter.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

The Michigan winter. And so you're walking through two feet of snow to get to the front door. And so it was awful. So I said to myself, okay, listen, this is not working out. We're several hundred doors into this campaign and I'm not getting a bite. Round down the goal from 1,000 doors to 800. And if I don't get a hit, I'll just hang it up, wait this thing out, and get a job at Starbucks. At least they have insurance, health insurance.

[Dennis Scully]

Listen, that green apron looking pretty good.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Favorite color. But at the 779th door, a wonderful couple, a doctor and his wife, invited me in, offered me a cup of coffee and a scone, and that was really welcome on a very bitterly cold day. And they eventually hired me and we renovated the home, the first floor, got it professionally photographed, put on my website, and then three weeks later, that's when the HGTV casting executives discovered my work and then cast me on my first television show, one of those design star type competitions. And I won that competition. And that's what catapulted the brand to the next level of public exposure with the masses.

[Dennis Scully]

And were there people in your life who you could share this experience with at the time? Was anybody bucking you up or making you feel, hang in there, you got this, Corey. You're going to be fine.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

No, I wish I could say that there. That there were, but no, Dennis, there weren't. Remember, my parents were 100%, you know, against this. Against this. So I got no encouragement or financial support or any encouragement from them, you know, whatsoever. So nothing came from them. And then the design community in Michigan, there's a lot of gatekeeping going on where people did not want to see me succeed. In between launching the firm and losing my job, I did work for a brief stint at Robert Allen Beacon Hill, and I was a memo librarian there. I did that for four months. I took out the trash, got memos for designers, vacuumed the floors, set the floors as far as vignettes, and I got laid off on that job in 2008 when the banks start to have their huge meltdown with Lehman Brothers and all of that. So had met a lot of interior designers in Michigan on the other side of the table, servicing their needs, getting them their things, wrapping up their furniture and artwork and putting it into their trucks. So now it's like, for them, they're looking at me like, oh, so this memo librarian, this stock guy at Robert Allen, has now hung up his smock and now wants to try his hand at interior design. And this was the era, Dennis, where HGTV was at its height. And so you saw this huge, you know, flush of design shows making everything look so easy. Homes being done in two weeks for 500 bucks. And so for the old guard in Michigan, the old guard of interior design, they saw me as basically a fad. They saw me as this new thing coming to basically brush aside their industry standards. So when it came to me asking them, as a newly minted designer, who's your best painter? Who do you use for hanging wall coverings? There's a tremendous, tremendous amount of gatekeeping. People were just like, oh, I'm so sorry. My guy's so busy, he can't help you. And I'm like, well, I can make him busier. You know, I need help. So, no, there wasn't a lot of support.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and you dedicate the new book in part to Ann and Bill, who were right, the clients that opened the 779th door and paid my first invoice. Well, and then remarkable that how soon after that? So how long had you been knocking on doors before the 7:79. So tell me the timeframe.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Oh, wow. I mean, it had been several months. And I'll be honest with you, I didn't stop knocking on the doors after I got that client. I continued knocking on doors because you can't just put all of your eggs in one basket right now.

[Dennis Scully]

I got this client because you can't refer.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

You need to continue getting your name out there. So I continue door knocking even while I was still working on their home. That didn't really wrap up until 2011. It definitely lessened in its the amount of door knocking I was doing. It definitely lessened after I landed things with Ann and Bill. But it didn't stop. Just I need to build a whole pipeline of new clients. And I was unknown, so there was not enough time for word of mouth and referrals to get out there about me. So I can't just wait for this job to finish and then I'm right back in the exact same position I was before with no clients. So I continued knocking on doors even after I landed the opportunity with Ann and Bill.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and shortly after the Ann and Bill good fortune came hgtv. And then suddenly you're on a lot of people's radar. So tell me about building your firm in Detroit and what was involved in all of that.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Yeah, I think that it was definitely an interesting chapter. Once the HGTV show aired and people saw what I could do on a national level in a nationally televised competition, that's when the phone started to really ring. And we got a medley of different types of clients from different parts of the world, different parts of the country. Some wanted lots of colors, some wanted no color at all. So those early days, that portfolio was very, very diverse. And I was desperate to create a point of view for the portfolio so that wouldn't be, you know, if a designer designs everything, then they stand for nothing. So I wanted something that felt very much like a cohesive package. Again, getting back to my business days in the automotive industry. There has to be a theme. There has to be a nice cohesive presentation for your brand. So I was anxious to get that off the ground.

[Dennis Scully]

And at the time, what was the.

What was that Michigan, Detroit, design scene like? And who were the clients that were well to do that could afford to hire designers? Was it old auto money or what else was there?

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

It was a mix and match of different industries, I think hedge funds, financial, Wall Street. There were still connections. And I also was blessed to work with clients who had moved into Michigan from Other states and had retained their positions professionally with the states they had hailed from. So a lot of it was people who were in those financial districts working and then bringing their businesses to Michigan got it.

[Dennis Scully]

And is there a certain style or taste in that area? Or as you say, was it more diversified?

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

I think for Michigan at the time we were going through that big restoration hardware boom. This is 2008, 2009, 2010, 11. So that's when the gray, beige, white RH look was really, really at its height. You know, all the, the three, you know, catalog bundles being dropped off on your doorstep unsolicited. You know, that that was the era. And so at that time, everyone was really going for the grays and beige, which of course for me as a maximalist, that was like, oh my God.

[Dennis Scully]

You were not going for that.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

But you do what you have to do. And you know, you won't see a lot of those projects in my portfolio now because they don't quite jive with the vision that I've crafted for our firm. But you do what you need to do to make clients happy and to build out your mission statement, you know, build out your brand. Yeah, gray and beige. Even me, I did gray and page at one time.

[Dennis Scully]

It is so hard, so hard for me to believe. I know as I'm sitting here scrolling through your book and looking at all the Gracie wallpaper, that gray and beige was what you had to do for the people to get that work right and to say yes to all those projects. And when did the pull to New.

York start to happen for you?

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

New York took place after we got the front cover of Traditional Home magazine. We had back to back stories in Triad home in 2015 and 16. A client saw the work and she was actually in Connecticut, in New Canaan, Connecticut. And she brought us to New Canaan to do her home. And then we got featured. That home got featured on Open House tv, which is a New York based NBC television series. And so that got some exposure there. Then we started getting work in New Jersey. So these were all like New York City adjacent opportunities. But the first really big project that we got in New York City proper was the Kips Bay Decorator show house in 2019 when they asked me to design the ladies library there in the, in the show house. And so we had already established an office for ourselves in New York in 2018. So I had an office in Michigan, a studio in Michigan, a spinoff satellite in New York. I had a home in Michigan, I had an apartment in New York City. So we were kind of building out the future for the brand in New York. But I do think it was the Kips Bay 2019 Ladies Library that really set us forward into the New York City area. Foreign.

[Dennis Scully]

We'Re taking a quick break from the show to let you know about Hector Finch's role in this year's Kips Bay Decorator Show House in New York. From September 30 through October 19, you can see their lighting installed in four different rooms created in collaboration with designers throughout the house. While you're in town, stop by the R. Hughes showroom at the New York Design center to explore a wide range of fixtures from the Hector Finch collection. To register for Kips Bay, visit kipsbaedecoratorshowhouse.org and to see the full collection online, head to hectorfinch.com and now back to the show. Well, so tell me more about that.

And I'm so glad you brought that up. And we'll talk about your involvement with Kips Bay and you're a trustee and very involved and give a lot of your time generously to the organization. I'm so curious what the experience was like when you first did that house and what came of it and everything that was involved and how designers should think about what's going to come of that huge undertaking.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Doing a room, it was an amazing experience for us. We were given the library on the parlor level and we were next to iconic design brands. You have Ellie Coleman next door and Jeff Lincoln around the corner. And we just had all of these really wonderful talents in the house. And so for being a primarily Michigan based brand, because again, that was our main DNA was Michigan at the time. It was a huge deal to be in what I believe is the Met Gala of show houses here in the United States. I think it's important to remember why we do what we do. We do what we do to help serve the needs of our near nearly 12,000 kids at our clubs in the Bronx and New York City and to keep them off the streets and in upwardly mobile activities when they get out of school. And I always understood that mission. I always knew from the very beginning that I was being used as bait for the public to come into this beautiful show house and to spend money to raise money for children.

[Dennis Scully]

Is that how you saw yourself being used as baby?

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

I mean, it is, it is. We're using the best of the design community to draw people into this majestic mansion, to, to encourage them to spend money. And all the proceeds goes towards our children and to help the Salaries of the employees who take care of their needs at our clubs, period. That's the bottom line. That's why we do what we do. But the French benefits that come from that are also spectacular. You know, the press you receive, the clients you get to meet, the doors that open are wonderful. After I did ladies Library in 2019, we were named the AD100. We were named the Elder Core A list. All these wonderful things started to kind of take shape for our firm. But I think it was having a chance to meet with the editors in the showhouse space in person. And, you know, now I serve on the board of trustees for kidspace. So, you know, it's evolved in a beautiful way. And we love our kids. I love the board of trustees. And just everything that we're doing right now is so ambitious and so wonderful. And, yeah, it's a great honor to be involved.

[Dennis Scully]

So let's come back to the evolution of your business, because one of the things I'm curious about, you suggested early on that one of the challenges you had getting in people's door and getting people to work with you was that the people in Michigan were perhaps a little bit more conservative or they weren't maybe as showy or ostentatious or. You pick the words. But that was one of the challenges. And I assume that that created some restrictions or constrictions in how you sort of ran your business and how you charged and all of that, and maybe felt different when you started to come to New York.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

From the very beginning, my model has been with our clients. My job is not to save you money. Okay? That is not my job. My job is not.

[Dennis Scully]

Let me make that clear.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Let me make that very clear. From the very beginning. My job is not to save you money. My job is to help you spend your money wisely. And if you spend your money wisely, you will save money. No one loses more money faster than those who are trying to not spend money. So when it comes to homeowners trying to, like, skirt the process, not hiring a designer, trying to DIY it themselves, no one has worse outcomes and more headaches and more buyers remorse over the decisions they've made without professional guidance than those who are trying to cheat the design process. So I tell clients, from the very beginning, this is not going to be about me looking for the best way to get your house done on a cheap level. It's about really leaning into luxury and beautiful interiors. This is a luxury business, and it's not a must have. You don't have to Have a gigantic. You don't have to have an interior design. These are electives that you have chosen for yourself. And that's wonderful, and we're so grateful to be considered for the opportunity. But now that you've embarked on this journey, let's not now go into this other direction of thinking that my sole focus here is to kind of, you know, get the numbers down as low as possible. That defeats the purpose of fine interior design. And I think it's a really great partnership when you establish those parameters really early on.

[Dennis Scully]

I talk to design consultants who say to me, dennis, any designer who is not charging by the hour is not running their business properly. And this whole argument back and forth about I charge a design fee versus hourly versus whatever. Lots of people have strong opinions, Corey, and not all of them are the same opinions. So where do you come down?

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

I think that hourly billing has its merits. The challenge with hourly billing is it opens up a doorway for clients to combat you over the value of what you have to do. Look at what we achieved with the looking glass dining room at Kips Bay. I got that room designed within six weeks. Every vestige of that required probably over 100 hours that went into that room alone. Just figuring out every vestige of just one room. Now multiply that times a 10,000 square foot home or a 15,000 square foot home. You really can't put a full value on what we bring to the table because so much of it simply does not make sense to those who are not interior designers. And so qualifying that with the hourly rate, as fair as it is, it's difficult for certain people to understand how we got to that number. So I find that a lot of our clients like knowing what's coming next, and it can be frustrating for them. And when they're frustrated, you're going to become frustrated too. And the other thing too is every client is different. Some clients are incredibly decisive and some are very indecisive. So you could bill by the hour for one client, and they're so decisive, it took two hours and they're done. And then you have another client that has you redo the thing 16 times, only to come back to the original first proposal. But now you've lost all this time in putting these other efforts together. You should bill for that. But then they're like, well, why should I pay you all, you know, you know, for all 16 rounds? Well, your contract says that you would do that if you're indecisive. And that's the thing that I think sometimes People don't realize is that this is not Burger King, where you can have it your way. You know, where you can just. The whole point of hiring an interior designer is for them to design for you. So if you hire an interior designer, let go. They really do have your best interest at heart. Yeah, it's like hiring a person to make a cake for you. You're sticking your finger in the batter, you're tast testing when it needs more salt. Well, duh. I know that it's not done yet. We're still. We're still mixing the batter. Get out the kitchen. Just get out the kitchen.

[Dennis Scully]

But do they, Corey?

I mean, every designer tells me, oh, clients are more difficult than ever today.

They want to be more involved.

They want to be more engaged. Heck, Ray Booth was telling me he had a client was using AI to second guess his white paint color choices.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Yeah, right.

[Dennis Scully]

Making him out of his mind. I mean, clients seem to be involved in the most minute areas that, to your point, really just tire this person and let them go. I mean, certainly be involved in the early stages of understanding where this is going and conveying everything you want about what you dream of and what you.

Want it to be.

Right.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

But then I think it's important to establish in the letter of agreement what the parameters are. Right. We always go for the legal aspect. We are very clear with our loa exactly what we will do and what the client will do in the process. And I am very quick to show the client. What did we agree to in the loa? This is what we have in writing. So you initialed this. These are your initials. So you said you wouldn't do this, and you're doing that here. And I'm not going to do this here because this is also in a breach of my contract with you. So you had to remind them of what you've agreed upon, but you had to have an agreement. I think that a lot of designers don't do a great job of covering themselves with a solid loa. They don't want to hire an attorney. They don't want to get the legal counsel. They want to cut. And then they find themselves in hot water when the clients take the project in a different direction. So I do think it's important to have a really solid loa in writing to protect yourself as a designer. We found that the biggest time sucks were where we did not enforce our contract. And sometimes we may get so caught up in just redoing things over and over and over again that we're not billing for all that, even though our loa says that we should, because we feel somehow embarrassed. And I'm saying we, as our firm, but just as an industry, we feel, oh, my God, this was so easy for me to do this. Why should I bill them for all that? Because you're living in a capitalist society. How do you think they became wealthy in the first place? They have worked hard to build their wealth. You, as a business person, to be thinking the same way and be billing fairly for your gifts and your talents. On my masterclass, I called it the Mariah Carey Principle, where I said that Mariah Care is a gifted vocalist, but she's also a really gifted songwriter. And so she's paid a fee to write her songs. She's paid a fee to record the songs in the sound booth, and then anytime she performs the songs live in concert on a stage somewhere, she's paid a third time. So you're not paid just for writing the song. You're paid three different times for three different services. So for interior designers, a lot of times we ask for a flat fee, for example, for the design concept. You know, you've created the song, you've written it, now you have to go out there and perform it. You have to get the contractors in place. You have to pull all the different work rooms into place. Right? You have to install the house. Well, now you're performing live. You didn't just write the music visually as a designer, you have to go out there and make it a physical, tangible reality. So why are you only charging a flat fee for just writing the music? You should be billing hourly for making the music to bring it to life, to perform live. That's the Mariah Carey principle. So that's why I found that we have found in the past, we're much better about these last few years. But in the past, that was a huge problem for us. Writing the music, but then not billing for performing live. And we've gotta be compensated for all of it.

[Dennis Scully]

So you mentioned masterclass. So, I mean, we should talk about the many multimedia brand extensions that you've been involved in. You've seemed to have been, Corey, very strategic. Strategic and thoughtful about where you appear and how this masterclass was quite a big deal. And I wonder just briefly, how that came about and what it's meant. And let's talk about some of the other things that you're doing.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Masterclass came about by way of my first Rizzoli book Design Remix. Someone had given one of the producers there a copy of the book and the book. Book contained all of these how to take away sections, you know, how to pick the right paint color, how to choose the right window treatment, draperies, the right light fixture, chandelier, whatever the case may be. And so they felt that that curriculum was right there in the book. And so they based the masterclass on the tenants of Design Remix. And we said yes. And it was an amazing experience. It was aired on Delta for, like, a year and a half. It was being viewed by between 7 and 10 million passengers a month. So it really expanded our brand to a bigger international audience, which has been really fun to kind of see take shape. It was great.

[Dennis Scully]

And could you connect the dots with the awareness that created and what it brought for you?

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Absolutely. The second chapter of our new book, Design, reimagined that home. The clients there, Jason and Heather, they saw me on Masterclass on the plane, and so they watched it, they enjoyed it, and then came together and said, this guy can help us pull this summer home that we're trying to work on in the Hamptons together. And they reached out. So that was a very easy translation straight from masterclass to what proved to be a really massive 10,000 square foot renovation. So, yeah, it definitely does pay for itself.

[Dennis Scully]

I saw you on the plane.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

I saw you on the plane.

[Dennis Scully]

Did you ever think that that would be a client referral mechanism?

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

It's weird, actually. I've been on planes and there'll be someone, like, across the aisle from me, and they look over at me slowly, like, try to connect the dots, because they're watching the masterclass on their screen. And so I stopped, like, wearing glasses on the plane sometimes because I don't want people to recognize me because then they're like, can I show you my home? I want to show you on my cell phone these ideas I have. And it's like, okay, I am to get to point B right now. So it's fun, though. It's all harmless fun.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, that's remarkable, though, to have that kind of exposure. And one of the things that you've built out recently is your YouTube channel, which, as you and I were talking about recently, you'd had a YouTube channel for ages, right? And hadn't really sort of done very much with it. And then suddenly, yeah, I didn't do.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Anything with it for 15 years. I just took out the name Corey Damon Jenkins so it would be secure. When YouTube became a thing with all of our socials, just grab the name. So you have it? I didn't use it, but YouTube has proven to be a very powerful streaming mechanism. Right now, it's the number one streaming mechanism outclassing Hulu or Disney or any of the other cable channels. And so it's just been in the insane. Seeing the first season of Design Reimagined, our streaming show, just take off the way it has. Our new book, Design Reimagined is the first coffee table book to come with a dedicated streaming series in the design world. So we've been able to kind of marry those things together. Season one covers the front cover story of the home there In Carnegie Hill, N.Y. season two, we are in post production on right now, and that's covering the second chapter in Design Reimagined. So there's a lot of content there, but I think we're just basically taking what we did with Masterclass and basically making it even more accessible with no paywall to the masses, and people are just really receiving it very well.

[Dennis Scully]

I wonder, to your point about the interrelationship between the book and the YouTube, I wonder what that tells us about media today and what is working and what is not working as well as it once did or maybe is working in a different way. It's interesting because. And you acknowledge the great Jill Cohen in your book.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Love her.

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

And I know she's a big fan of yours. And she often says, oh, Dennis, these books, listen, people need to set their expectations. They're not gonna be big money makers. In fact, they're gonn going to be big costs. And so many designers who I talk to say, yes, I love to just burn money by putting a book out. But it's not that way for you and the interrelationship of all of this. So tell me about that.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

No, our books have been very successful. The first book is now in its seventh reprint. And the second book, Design Reimagined, we were just told by our editors, has already entered its second in printing and it's only been out for a month. So long live print. Long live print. People still love books. They're not going away, thank God. And I do think there's something to be said for the love and the thirst for interior design. I think design is not dead. I do think that some television producers, especially on the cable level and maybe even on the streaming level, they believe that design is dead because there's not. We don't have the great design shows like we used to. And what is now happening on these networks is this huge proliferation of real estate shows. Love it. Or listed shows that are just basically about, you know, real estate. And so people think, oh well, design is dead because that's what's popular. Other real estate shows, well, that's not how it actually works. The analytics are what you're looking at. If you're only showing real estate shows and not showing beautiful high end design shows, then people are going to give you the numbers based upon what you're showing. I think that the explosion of our design Reimagined show on YouTube proves that people still want great interior design shows. They still want to see the actual ins and outs of it and they don't want to be talked down to. They don't want to receive faux false narratives about timelines or about costs. They can handle receiving, you know, actual truthful information. This house took 18 months. This is a multimillion dollar renovation. Maybe you can't afford to do all of this yourself, but here are some tidbits, here are some ticks and tricks of the trade that you can duplicate in your own apartment, in your own home at no cost. And here's how we did it. And people are loving that. Which shows that design still has pull in the streaming world. So it's basically nice to be empowered to do what we want to do. Not worry about being green lit, not worry about, you know, powers that be trying to cut us down for time or to edit out things that don't make sense to them. We can tell our own story in a very organic and comprehensive way.

[Dennis Scully]

We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about laloy. Just this month, Laloy announced their newest collaboration with renowned interior designer Leanne Ford. Plus all new seasons of home textiles from Amber Lewis, Lewis and Chris Loves Julia. You'll want to see all those online or in person and you can at High Point Market. Learn more and make your High point [e-mail] that's L O L O I rugs.com and don't forget to follow laloyloyrugs on Instagram and Tick Tock. And now back to the show.

Well, and again, that comes back to this notion, just as you say, of you being able to control the media and how you put yourself out there. And you seem a very thoughtful steward of the Corey Damon Jenkins brand that you are building. And I'm wondering how you think about brand building. You've got some strategic partnerships which we should talk about and products, lines. And you and I were together recently teasing about some of your new lighting that's coming in January, but you've got a lot of different things that you're doing. Tell me how you think about it and what it represents for the business.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

I think for our small business, we are just very interested in building out a firm that is successful. I take this very seriously. I am responsible for many miles. They need to be fed families that depend on these employees and their salaries. So I take this very seriously as a steward of our, as the principal of our firm. So I'm always looking for ways to, as Steve Jobs would put it, play in the blue water, think of new things that have not been done. And so the YouTube channel is one way we've done that. Licensing is another big way. We've partnered recently with ICOLs to produce their first licensing partnership and I'm looking forward to that coming out here in January, January abroad in Paris and then stateside for High Point Market in spring of next year. But they have just as an example iholts. I think it's 20 something percent of their revenue is here in the States. The rest is all abroad. They are massive outside the states. They're in 116 countries. So we're already talking in talks with those showroom owners, Dennis, and mapping out book signings, line shows, speaking engagements in places like Melbourne and Sydney, Australia, Morocco. So we were talking about London, we're talking about Johannesburg, of course, Paris, returning there. We've been invited to come back to Bangkok, Thailand, which I love. I love Bangkok so much. And we're going to basically bring our messaging to those countries. Design reimagine. The book has a ton of Iholz lighting throughout the book, just organically in our own client projects photographs. So to your point about strategically thinking about partnerships, I'd rather build a series of really great relationships with my favorite brands and just really flesh that out and then all ships rise in the tide later than spreading seeds everywhere to whoever will listen to us, whoever will sell to us. And then you just don't really have a comprehensive relationship package in place. So it's been really fun seeing it all come together organically with our relationship with ikea.

[Dennis Scully]

So Corey, just hearing you rattle off that upcoming travel schedule, I mean, I was getting exhausted just listening to it. And what I can't understand about you and that I want you to help me figure out is how on earth you're like a genuinely good guy. You're always so. Amy Astley writes in the book, you're always so gracious. She points out, he's not looking around the room to see who else he could be talking to instead of me kind of thing. How do you stay as grounded as you seem to be? How do you time manage all of this? How do you keep some time to yourself to recharge? Like, are you drinking green shakes? Are you meditating? Do you have a private trainer, a spiritual guide? I mean, what is it, Corey?

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

How do you do it? It's all of the above. Truly. I have a great team. I have a great support system. Adam has been a really huge.

[Dennis Scully]

That husband of yours.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

I know he's a big part of this. Absolutely. But we are like an ant picking up a leaf a hundred times its weight. I do recognize that. Right now we're in Nashville. We just unveiled the flower magazine.

[Dennis Scully]

He's got another show house he's doing.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Yes.

[Dennis Scully]

He was just in Gibbs Bay. And he's also.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

We have the library here, the Flower magazine show house. And we, as you mentioned, we just unveiled the Looking Glass Dining Room in New York. We didn't plan that quite the same way because New York slipped its date and landed on top of this one. But now we're heading back to New York here in a few hours, and we're going to do a change of clothes, and then we're off to High Point Market to install what we're calling the House of Max. It's going to be a 3,000 square foot penthouse in the heart of Hancock and Moore showroom, where we'll have several rooms, foyer, dining room, bedroom, all these different spaces, like a penthouse featuring our collections with Hancock and Moore and Maitland Smith. And we'll do that for a few days and then we'll have a photo shoot and then we're off to this and that.

[Dennis Scully]

So again, this is already. I'm just. It's so overwhelming to even think of.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

But I can't take the credit 100%, Dennis. It's really.

[Dennis Scully]

You have to appear. You personally have to appear, and you have to interact and make all of this happen. So what the heck are you doing? Is there some workout plan we could be following that you're. I mean, like, again, are you.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

I wish.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, so, I mean, how do you center yourself?

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

I think that I love what I do. I really do love it. I love design.

[Dennis Scully]

It can't just be that, though.

Come on.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

But truly obsessed with it. Like I said earlier in our podcast here today, I am an Aries. So the Aries are the leaders. They're the firstborn of the Zodiac. And so our characteristic is that we are obsessive compulsive about being in the lead, being in control, taking care of everyone else. We are the caregivers for the rest of the zodiac sign. So I think that really does kind of flesh out in my behalf. In my case, I really am all in with everything I do. And I also had to really give love to my design team. I think that there's something to be said for principals when we empower our teams to be out there with us. Not hiding them, not hiding their talents, not putting them under a lampshade, but really taking them with you to High Point Market, bringing them on stage when you are being interviewed, letting people interview them, them. When you empower your teammates to share the microphone with you, it takes nothing away from you as the lead vocalist. Right. I also recognize the power of delegating, letting things go that I cannot handle. Whether it be figuring out an LOA issue or marketing, PR stuff, photo shoots, I delegate these things out to our team. And then just as I want our clients to do for us, Dennis, I let it go. I let the team do their thing and that's how I'm able to get, I think, so much done.

[Dennis Scully]

And in terms of maintaining the positivity, because this is a really challenging business and particularly when you're working with a higher end clientele and they're very demanding and have great expectations and all of.

That, how do you stay as positive.

As you seem to always be?

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

I would say it's very much like what I wrote in the dedication of my book. Broken crayons still color delays do not mean denial. And imposter syndrome is a real thing that has to be managed. So I'm not immune to that. You know, I'm not immune to having bad days and days where toxicity can kind of creep in. Imposter syndrome is something that I've had to always fight. I'm not going to sit here with you and be one of those desires that acts like, oh, everything's wonderful. And I've never had challenges, you know, it's like I got laid off, you know. You know, so you're going to have nicks and cracks in the emotional enamel that is our self esteem. I'm not immune to that. And that's okay. That's the whole point of design reimagined as a title. Being okay with reimagining your place in life. My whole career is a testament to realizing that, okay, this didn't work and now we're going to make a complete pivot whether we want to or not. And then embracing that versus, you know, woe is me. Oh, life sucks. Well, life does suck, but life is also beautiful. It's all about your perspective. I always tell my staff dentist, I always hold up for them a piece of paper, and I tear off one corner, and I say, what do you see here? And they say, okay, well, you tore off one corner. I say, okay, that's part of it. But you still have three good corners that are not torn. And I think that's the mindset that we as creatives, as designers have to remember, as that life will always have a torn corner, but you still have three great corners to lean into. And if that's your perspective, you'll continue to thrive no matter what life will throw at you.

[Dennis Scully]

So to that point, here you are. To most people from the outside would be looking, this guy's got it all. And to me, Corey, and I was thinking about this this morning. You know, we're living in a time right now where a lot of people are feeling very differently about what we used to say was the American Dream. I feel like it's. If anybody is a representation of what you can achieve in America, it is you. And I was honestly sort of moved by it, thinking about all of it. And I'm so happy for you. And to my point, about your optimism and your positivity, I feel like, who deserves it more than you? No one, as far as I'm concerned. So, I mean, but I wonder, where's.

It all going for you?

What do you want to really have.

Come out of all of this for you?

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

I think what I want to have come out of it is a legacy that will be encouraging and empowering to others, holding open the doors of opportunity, like an elevator, if you will, and just keeping them open for others to pass through with a little less difficulty. I don't want to gatekeeper. I don't want to put others through what I experienced at the hands of Those interior designers 17 years ago when I launched my firm that pulled the ladder up after themselves, and they climbed the wall of success, and they left me down there with a ladder with no rungs. I don't want to be that person. So I really want to leave a legacy that is encouraging to others. And you're right. I think social media and the press will paint certain pictures of us as those who are in the limelight, if you will. But as you mentioned, no one has it all. When I came out to my parents, they disowned me, all right? And I haven't had my family on either side except for one biological aunt all these years. So a person may say, oh, he's A.D. 100. Oh, he's elder core A list. Oh, he's got this, he's got that. But I don't have my biological family. None of them were at my wedding, except for one aunt. And trust me, I have a huge family.

[Dennis Scully]

And none of them could get past you getting married to a man and being old.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

I was raised in a very tough, Christian, conservative household. And when I took a stand for who I was, my entire family disowned me. I have nieces and nephews, dentists I couldn't even pick out in a crowd. Right now I wouldn't even look like because they've not been given any access to me, and I've been denied access to them. And here I am sharing this with hundreds of thousands of people or millions of people on your podcast. I am saying that from the angle of don't get too caught up in the Oscars and the Emmys that a designer may win. No one has it all. You may not be 8100, but you may have your health. You may not be elder core A list, but you have your family. Right? You may not have, you know, a television show. You've got a thriving business. What are the three corners in your piece of paper that is not torn? What is that that you have? And then don't. I'm not going to get emotional here. Don't focus on now I'm all emotional.

[Dennis Scully]

Cory, what do you mean?

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Like, look at the three corners that you have. Don't focus on the torn corner because all of us have a torn corner. You just may not know what that torn corner is. You know, Alexa Hampton is one of my best friends, and she. I wrote about her in my new book, and we were talking about family. She said something to me that I actually quoted in Design Reimagine. She said that you have your biological family and then you have your logical family. And that really resonated with me because you may not have. Have all the people that you were supposed to have in your orbit from a biological standpoint, but you can amass an army of advocates and loves and allies across the board and with other families that are maybe not tied to you by blood. And I have that. You know, I have a. I have a great family of in laws and they're, you know, the extended Wasserman clan. I have, of course, my staff, they're like my work family, tons of friends, both in the industry and outside. I'm good. Good. Really. It's all good. It's as good as it's going to get in this lifetime, and I'm content with that.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

Yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I know it must have taken a lot to get there and to come to terms with all of that. And I'm sorry that you've had to.

Deal with all of that.

But as I say, it makes me admire all that you've accomplished even more that you've had to struggle with all of that. And I'm sorry. I feel so fortunate to be able.

To talk to you about all of.

This, and I'm grateful to you for sharing all of that. So thank you.

[Corey Damon Jenkins]

The honor is mine. I was so excited to get the invitation to come back on the podcast because I've always enjoyed my time with you and I just feel you just do such a great job really keeping your finger on the pulse of our industry. It's like you're like the male Oprah of our field. You're bringing in all these wonderful designers and different perspectives on the stage and helping shape and mold the minds of our industry for the future. And that's, I think, really, really important that we hold each other accountable as an industry by having very frank, candid conversations like this. So thank you for all that you're doing with Business of Home to kind of keep us all on the same page.

[Dennis Scully]

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us [e-mail] where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a [e-mail] if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.