← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
Cox London boldly walks the line between art and design
00:58:32
Chris and Nicola Cox, the married couple behind the celebrated English brand, share their story
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- [00:04]
Dennis Scully
This is business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guests this week are Chris and Nicola Cox, the husband and wife duo behind the English lighting and furniture brand Cox London. The two met as young sculptors, fell in love and eventually got married. But it wasn't until 2004 that their creat partnership evolved into a business. Since then, Cox London has grown dramatically. Today, Chris and Nicky lead a team of more than 100 and their studio is known for crafting bold sculptural pieces that often take cues from nature, like a 12 foot tall iron and brass chandelier shaped like an explosion of magnolia blossoms. I spoke with Chris and Nikki about the joys and challenges of working together as a couple, their efforts to to support the next generation of artisans, and how they've navigated the transition from artists to entrepreneurs. This podcast is sponsored by Leloy. For over 20 years, Leloy has been a leader in the home textile industry by upholding the highest standards in craftsmanship and customer service. See the newest collections of Laloy rugs, pillows and wall art at Vegas Market this summer from July 27th through the 31st. Showroom appointments are highly recommended and you can make yours today@laloyrugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com and don't forget to follow laloyloyrugs on Instagram and TikTok. And now on with the show.
- [01:58]
Interviewer
Rather than jumping into the whole building the business side of things, first, I wanted to go back because both of you come from different geographical locations, obviously, but also a slightly different upbringing and thinking about things.
- [02:13]
Dennis Scully
Nikki, I want to start with you.
- [02:15]
Interviewer
And hear a little bit about where you grew up and some of the things that occupied you in your youth.
- [02:22]
Nicola Cox
So I grew up in New Zealand in the North Island. So my mother, she traveled in the 1950s to Europe by sea. And in those days, the way they recorded their trips was on slide format. So she had the most amazing collection of carousels of slides of all these incredible places that she'd visited. And our Sunday evening when I was a child was pancakes and Mum's slideshow.
- [02:51]
Dennis Scully
Is that right?
- [02:52]
Interviewer
Settle in, kids. Moms bringing out the slides of her travel adventures.
- [02:56]
Nicola Cox
And I was absolutely in awe of everything I was seeing on these slides. You know, the architecture, the art, you know, the different cultures, the history. And then sort of fast forward into my teens. I was very into British culture. So the first opportunity I Had to get on my way and get on an airplane and come over here. I did. So that's over 30 years ago now. 30 years plus. So I was quite young.
- [03:26]
Interviewer
Well, and was there something in my notes, Nikki, about you managing rock bands?
- [03:31]
Nicola Cox
Well, I wasn't managing them, but I didn't work for them. Yeah, I worked in the music business. One of the first jobs I picked up just through the network, was working for a location catering company that cooked for the bands and the crew, and they took care of dressing rooms and riders and all that sort of thing. So that was my first job in the uk And I traveled around Europe with bands for five years. It was free travel. And I got paid to work, you know, and I was working with, you know, icons like the Rolling Stones and Genesis and ZZ Top and.
- [04:09]
Interviewer
Really?
- [04:10]
Nicola Cox
Yeah. So it was great fun, I have to say. Great fun. But living in a suitcase permanently, you know, on a crew bus is. Gets, you know, that gets weary. But on the way, I mean, I had a. I had a boyfriend at the time who I used to discuss my sort of hopes and dreams with him, obviously. And he encouraged me to go to art school because I really wanted to sort of pick up my creativity again and do something creative. So. So that's how I kind of made that transition.
- [04:42]
Interviewer
And that, funny enough, is where the two of you meet. Yes.
- [04:46]
Nicola Cox
Yes. So the first art school I went to was Camberwell College of Arts, which was really amazing college in London. And then I went on to do my degree, where I met Chris at Wimbledon School of Art doing fine arts sculpture. So we were both on the same degree in the same year.
- [05:06]
Interviewer
She's touring with the Rolling Stones. Can you. Can you top this, Chris? And you're. I mean, what do you got for us?
- [05:11]
Chris Cox
I really can't. I really can't. But one of my. My favorite favorite bands growing up was the Cure, and she did. She toured with them as well. So we had an immediate affinity and an immediate conversation about that when we met, you know.
- [05:23]
Interviewer
Oh, I can understand. One of my favorite bands as well. So let's talk about where you grew up, Chris, and the antiques that you were surrounded by and the. And the scene. Yeah, sure.
- [05:35]
Chris Cox
I grew up 100 miles exactly north of London in a market town, Lincolnshire, the southern tip of Lincolnshire. Market town called Stamford. And it was a very early town that had sort of Roman elements, Georgian elements, medieval. And we grew up in a series of houses that my father and mother restored. So I lived in about six or seven houses between the age of four and 17, 18.
- [06:02]
Dennis Scully
And what was driving that?
- [06:04]
Interviewer
Why were you moving around so much?
- [06:05]
Chris Cox
Do you know? They treated their homes like antiques, actually, you know, restore them, perhaps sell them on. And they love discovering old elements, you know, being covered up in the 60s and 70s. So we moved and we always dealt from home. My parents always dealt in antiques from home, so business was at home. And my grandfather had dealt since the 50s, my grandmother had dealt in jewelry. He dealt in a wonderful array, a broad spectrum of rare and unique antiques. And he set the tone for the whole family because then my father came into the business. 16, 17. He is still dealing today, age 80.
- [06:44]
Interviewer
Amazing.
- [06:45]
Chris Cox
My mother was working for her cousin David, who was also a dealer, and that's where they met, because that was one of my dad's calls, near Cambridgeshire. And then my father's side were all in the trade and my brother and I sort of grew up against that backdrop. So I felt I was very much growing up in a creative family and there was nothing, you know, I was never going to step outside of. That was the obvious maneuver for me.
- [07:11]
Interviewer
Yeah, well, so was there. Was it just naturally assumed you were going to get into the antiques business or some aspect of the business?
- [07:20]
Chris Cox
Well, it's my uncle, he used to work at the back of my grandma and granddad's shop. He had a little studio there. And I remember him drawing. He drew and composed these collages with old dominoes, playing cards, magnifying glasses, bits of carving, bits of stone, marble, all this intrigue. I remember him drawing when I was 8 or 9, thinking, or saying, wow, that's incredible. And an auntie saying, well, perhaps you'll go to art school like your Uncle Ralphie did. And from that moment, it was set in stone. Yes, that's what I'm going to do. So I was very lucky. They all sounded so engaged. There was often dealers around the table having tea, coffee, breakfast, lunch, because we dealt from home. So I heard the trade conversation from a very early age and it was intriguing. They were talking about these legendary dealers in London, the antique sales room, what was being sold, what was interesting, whose house had been featured in the most recent interiors magazines. So, yeah, I couldn't help but kind of. It all went in by osmosis. And our house was always being decorated or the showroom being reshifted around, new stock coming in. And it wasn't unusual for a piece of furniture to be on the kitchen table being stripped or picked to uncover a patina or a decoration that had been painted there 100 years before, paint stripper, wirewall on the kitchen table, everybody getting involved. And you heard the excitement as well, you know, the exhilaration of, look, look, the original paints underneath. So I heard this from a really, really young age. Yeah.
- [09:00]
Interviewer
So you meet up at school, I assume you come to like one another quite a bit, and then you get out of school. And it's not as if you jump into this business that we're going to talk about, because it seems like it was years of apprenticing and learning and doing other things. So tell me a little bit about that.
- [09:21]
Nicola Cox
When I first finished, I decided to go home for a year and just kind of recalibrate. And Chris joined me a year later out in New Zealand. So we both spent some time out there and we had a really lovely lifestyle of. I was working for a glass artist up in the New Zealand hills called Anne Robinson, wonderful glass artist, making lost wax castings. And I worked in a. In a craft gallery. And I also worked in a foundry, in a. In a bronze foundry, working, making art for other artists. So Chris, of course, came out on a. On a visa and instantly sort of said, well, you know, where's the obvious place for me to head for, you know, to look for work? And that was local antique dealers.
- [10:16]
Interviewer
Well, so what was that like, Chris?
- [10:18]
Chris Cox
I couldn't have got luckier. I think the first two or three shocks up Parnell Rise, as I walked up, said, no, no vacancies. But John Stevens, who is still I count as a great friend today, was running a fine showroom of antiques. He does it in a much bigger way now, but this. This fantastic ramshackle traditional shop with an awning over the front full of antiques. And he said, can you. What can you do? Can you drive? And I said, yes, I can. He said, and what, what brings, you know, what do you bring to the party? And I said, well, I'm from an antique dealing family. He said, oh, so you can wax furniture then? I said, yes. And like, in. In true Kiwi fashion, you know, they open their door wide open and say, give it a go. Come on, let's do it. So immediately I was. I was. I was taking furniture around to restore us. I was taking mirrors to clients, hanging them up. I was taking small bits home to restore and clean up. And when he was out, I'd run the shop. And it was just a great experience to be as far away as I could be from home, but doing something that I understood and felt at home with. So, yeah, part of my. I'd already spent A year restoring antiques in London, getting my money together to go and get this gal and bring her home.
- [11:40]
Interviewer
So was that the idea was like, okay, all right, I'll come over to New Zealand for a while, but really, I'm bringing you home at the end of all of this.
- [11:48]
Chris Cox
I don't know. I think when you're young, you don't make too many plans, do you? I knew I had to get out and see her and certainly wanted to experience where Nikki lived. So we worked there for, I think, six, seven months, and then at that point, started making plans to go home. My visa was up. We sailed for a couple of months without a visa. I think I thought I may never get back into New Zealand. So left under a shadow, under that shadow. But Nikki was more than ready, I think. I think. I hope I didn't drag her back to town, back to London.
- [12:24]
Interviewer
You can tell us, Nikki, you can tell us how you were really feeling.
- [12:27]
Nicola Cox
But Chris was really innovative. And they have this thing called an inorganic collection where we were living, and people just put out their sort of scrap metal or bikes or furniture or whatever, and the council would come and collect it. But before the council comes along and collects it, so people go around and sort of pick out interesting bits. And Chris would pick up all of the scrap metal and then bring it back to our little house that we had. And we'd made a little studio underneath the house with dirt floors and just, you know, the supporting beans of the house. And he'd incidentally flown over from England to see me in New Zealand with his welding kit over his shoulder, so he was ready, because heaven forbid he.
- [13:13]
Interviewer
Goes anywhere without that. Without his welding kit. Yeah, you never know when he's going to find some scrap metal on the road. And apparently he.
- [13:20]
Nicola Cox
And he made these beautiful animals, lots of animalia, birds, monkeys, lizards. And then John started selling them for him out of. Out of the antique shop, which was really super.
- [13:34]
Interviewer
Were you impressed with Chris's work? Were you thinking, wow, this guy's talented?
- [13:37]
Nicola Cox
I was. Well, I've always. Always known, you know, he's a true talent, a true artist. You know, he's always in that zone, permanently in that zone. So I'm an awe of that. Yeah.
- [13:51]
Interviewer
So, okay, so we finally come to some kind of an agreement about returning home to the UK or home for Chris and soon to be home for you.
- [14:01]
Nicola Cox
Yeah. It took us a little while to find a place to live where we had a proper studio, but there was always some kind of makeshift space and we both went off, you Know, looking for creative careers, creative jobs. I found work in a, in a fine art bronze foundry in London and Limehouse and Chris was working for a metalwork restorer.
- [14:27]
Chris Cox
I actually got my original role back. So I'd worked for them for that year when I was getting my cash together to go to New Zealand and they welcomed me back. I mean, these guys are my London family and saviors really, because they taught me metalworking skills that I didn't have from school or art school. And very quickly I could silver solder, soft solder, polish metal, turn on a lathe, drill and tap. All of these mechanisms, all of these methods and traditional techniques that we still use today. So that really, really informed so much of what we do today.
- [15:00]
Interviewer
So shall we tell the story of working in the garage at home and concerning neighbors and smoke appearing and all of that?
- [15:12]
Chris Cox
Tell me, do you know Nikki jumped ship from her job in 2003-2004-2002-2002. Okay, so it was 2003 that I joined her almost a year later. But I used to come home and find Nikki pouring bronze off one knee highly inappropriate. It's so dangerous.
- [15:34]
Interviewer
And explain for people what pouring bronze at home even entails so people get the full.
- [15:40]
Chris Cox
So our first house in 2000, which we felt incredibly lucky to have pooled our funds and got a small deposit together for a house in Tottenham in North London, had a garage at the back, a concrete floor and tilt slab concrete sides. So reasonably fireproof, safe for the wooden roof. And we figured since you could get two cars in there, we wouldn't put cars in there, we would put, set up a bronze foundry which meant a kiln to burn out, wax mold making facility, which generally happened in the house. And actually we had to melt the bronze outside in the garage. Very high temperatures. But one night Nikki was, she'd set the kiln to burn out the wax in the early hours of the morning, 3, 4, 5 o'. Clock, because there was quite a plume of smoke that came out of the garage, all four corners, in fact, that seemed to be where the air gaps were. But nobody knew until one night it just triggered a little bit early sort of pub closing time. And we had these two guys knocking on all the front doors saying there's a shed on fire at the back of the house, which we knew was not on fire, it was just the plumes of steam and smoke that came from the wax. So not a fire threat. Well, not as far as we were concerned. Everything's fine. We said everything's fine. We're artists. We're artists and we're just burning out waxes. So thankfully they didn't call the fire brigade and immediately Nikki got on the case the next day and we started looking for a workshop away from home to find. Yeah, this isn't going to work long term.
- [17:16]
Nicola Cox
It's too much, too much to ask that somebody would be so forgiving the next time around, you know. But what was amazing, I think maybe because they'd had one or two pints of beer, that they just said, oh, I see, I see your artist. That's fine. Yeah, no problem.
- [17:33]
Interviewer
Oh, so you're just, you know, burning wax. Oh, okay, sure. So you set off to find proper space and skipping ahead. I mean, marriage and properly setting up the business in. What was that, 2005, 2004.
- [17:51]
Nicola Cox
We got married and we were properly sort of set up by then in a new studio, which was not too far from where we were. But it was a small studio suitable for about sort of four people. We'd taken on our first couple of employees who were actually friends from art school and they were working for us full time and helping us make our pieces and doing lots of restoration. We used to do a lot of lighting restoration for the trade, so antique metalware. And we would drive around London, all of the antique shops around the Kings Road and up and down the Fulham Road and Lilly Road, picking up work and then coming back with a full van load of work that would keep everybody going for the next few weeks.
- [18:43]
Interviewer
And was it all just sort of word of mouth that everybody knew of you and the services that you could provide?
- [18:48]
Chris Cox
I think our time in the industry, working Nikki for bronze foundries, where she met a plethora of artists, local London artists, and made friends with someone. Some of them we're still great friends with today. Nikki was making their work. Often they wouldn't want it necessarily casting in bronze, but they needed a mold making because they couldn't do it themselves. And my family, being dealers also had already for several years been giving us anything they thought we could restore. It just grew with more clients, friends of friends of friends and people did ring us up. Or when you're in an area with nine or 10 dealers on the same street or even in the same building, people would say, hey, I've seen you pick up stuff for him and her. Can I give you something too? So it built. I mean, we had enough work for seven days a week.
- [19:37]
Interviewer
And was this a wonderfully profitable business? Were you charging good money and making a nice living from this?
- [19:45]
Nicola Cox
We were Making a comfortable living. Our expectations were not high. Our overheads were pretty low. We made it work, and we managed to save up enough money for a really good deposit on our first workshop, which we purchased the freehold of. And that. That really. That was a game changer for us, having an industrial unit on a. On an industrial estate with far more space than we could have ever imagined we would ever fill. But seven workshops later.
- [20:18]
Interviewer
Yes, exactly. You outgrew that pretty quickly. So originally, getting that with the intention of. What were you imagining the business would scale up to at the time?
- [20:29]
Chris Cox
It was 2007, wasn't it? And we'd already started selling some of our own pieces, but we were still making work for artists, and we're still restoring for antique dealers and making things up for interior designers. So all of those revenue streams were sort of coming in at the same time. I guess at some point, not long after that, we had to decide and steer the business in the direction that we wanted it to go in. And we both knew we wanted to make our own designs more than anything. It was just having an eye on the finances and understanding if that was viable, I guess.
- [21:02]
Nicola Cox
Chris had designed our first two or three pieces of lighting sort of probably around 2004, 2005. And part of the sort of being the runner, going around and picking up the. The antiques, he had also sort of carefully hang one of these pieces in the back of the van and wait for somebody to show some interest in it, and often they would sell. So that was really the beginning of that journey, you know, thinking actually we could really turn, you know, pivot the business much more towards that. And just by process of elimination, really, we. We went more and more in that.
- [21:40]
Interviewer
Direction, so more and more hoping to make your own work. And Chris had. Chris is quite a good. Quite a good salesperson. Right. So he's. Oh, this light. This light here that you. Oh, you know, that's just something that I'm working on. Oh, you wouldn't be interested in that. No, no, no. Show it to you. I mean, sure. I mean, I can show it to you.
- [21:58]
Nicola Cox
I mean, exactly it.
- [21:59]
Interviewer
I can hang it up and you. Right.
- [22:01]
Chris Cox
I mean, you could have been on the road with me. You got it pat down.
- [22:06]
Interviewer
I can see the whole little patter going. He's. Yeah. So you knew. But you knew there was interest for your work. But the business had been built on all this restoration and working for all these other people, which informed what we.
- [22:20]
Chris Cox
Did, Dennis, in a big way. So, you know, not just reluctant to give it up as a revenue stream, but as inspiration. So many amazing items, you know, really by then, we'd taken apart 400 years worth of metalwork design for 10 years between 97 and 2007. So we're kind of well informed about color and form mechanisms, decorative mechanisms always excited us. So we were becoming designers by default. Two sculptors, two fine art sculptors becoming designers, nurturing craftspeople. Just a whole melting pot of everything that had been going on for 10 years or more.
- [23:02]
Dennis Scully
Tell me more about that transition.
- [23:04]
Interviewer
So sculptors becoming designers, what did that mean?
- [23:09]
Dennis Scully
What was that transition?
- [23:10]
Nicola Cox
Well, it was a really difficult question that we asked ourselves all the time, and we could never kind of pinpoint, you know, when did we. Where was the line between artist and designer? Because we didn't train as designers, we didn't feel that we had the right to call ourselves designers. But then when you are designing functional art, you know, you tend to sort of sit in your. In your own camp, you know, where. Where you came from. And that was the art world, really. So I guess we. We think of ourselves more as. As artists, creatives than we do as designers of, if you like.
- [23:48]
Chris Cox
I think it's nice to relax about it and just say what we do is informed by everything we've learned. It's a result of lots of different processes, ideas and thought thoughts and. And I hope that makes what we do a unique offering. It's something. It's an amalg of different worlds.
- [24:08]
Interviewer
So let's tell people what Cox is today and how you describe it, and let's tell people how big. It's a big business. Let's talk about the great many people that work with you. And as you say, you've got quite a large workshop and everything else.
- [24:24]
Nicola Cox
So today we have. We have a team of over 100 and we've kind of blossomed into that over the last year. We got to about 50. And then there was a shift in the needs, because when you take on that many artisans, most. Nearly everyone was an artisan and there was just Chris and myself running the business and wearing all of the various hats that you need, you know, from HR to IT to finance, you know, and trying to sort of hold it all together. But you get to a certain point where you say, actually, I. I can't do all of these things total justice. And plus, we really, really wanted to get back into our own personal creativity for the business, because that's our. I think that's the best sort of value that we can offer Cox London, as well as our creative vision. So we really, really believe in design with a soul and supporting heritage crafts and makers and get a lot out of seeing people come into our studios and workshops and bringing their creativity with them and sharing their knowledge. You learn from each other. It also helps inform other things that we do in our work as well with these, you know, blacksmithing, for example, was not a skill that Chris or I had. But when we started employing blacksmiths, you know, we discovered a new channel for us to sort of express our ideas. So that's what it's really about. It still has that sort of. The workshops still have that almost art school environment, you know, where there's a lot of collaboration within the studios, which is, well, happy place.
- [26:17]
Chris Cox
But like Nicky says, we needed supporting roles for all of those makers and to take the pressure off of us. And it's incredible how much it does take to run a team as it grows so operationally, financially. Human resources, sales, team, marketing, managing, it makes up the numbers quite quickly. As you grow with your output, making and manufacturing, you really need to build those teams around you. And that was a journey we went on, I guess, from, well, probably 2010 to now, the last 15 years, a steady road of learning about how to.
- [26:58]
Interviewer
Run a business well, and I'm so glad you put it that way, because that's really what I want to hear from both of you, is how you learned, how you figured out how to scale this, this business to such a size that it is today. We were talking recently about what a challenge scaling a business like this is. Nikki, you made the great point about how training played such a huge role and really being able to teach people not only how to make the things that you need to make, but also how to work within this environment and hopefully help others to learn and develop as, as well. But I'm. But I'm curious how you learned to figure it out. Where did you even start with the process?
- [27:43]
Nicola Cox
I think we both realized that we'd got to a certain point where we were, you know, almost at sort of burnout situation, and we. So we, we took on a business coach who gave us some. Some methods and ways of thinking, introduced us to a lot of ideas, books to read. And, you know, that really sort of steadied our nerve, actually, because I think something we should have done in the earlier days was ask for more advice, you know, more help, et cetera. But being sort of artists, you tend to think you're going to forge your own path and reinvent the wheel every time. So that really, really helps me. I really quite enjoy learning about all of those, those different sides of the business as well.
- [28:32]
Interviewer
And were you largely wearing the hat, one of the many hats you were wearing, apparently, Nikki, at the time, were you largely the business operation side of things?
- [28:40]
Nicola Cox
Yes, I was, yeah. For all of my sort of lack of knowledge and an experience, I was patching it together. But what the very first thing that our coach taught us was that, you know, systems will set you free, so make sure you, you choose the right ones. And that's difficult in itself. You know, it's difficult because you don't imagine that you're going to grow to a certain, you know, we haven't come at our business from that point of view that we're going to grow our business to this scale and then sell it on or there's no plan like that. It's a, it's a legacy for us. This is, you know, our life, you know, and we will carry on doing it well into our 80s or 90s or whatever health will permit. Yeah, foreign.
- [29:29]
Dennis Scully
We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about laloy. This spring, Laloy launched two exciting collaborations. Discover bold modern rugs and pillows from their new collection with Jeremiah Brent and don't miss the latest season of Magnolia Home by Joanna Gaines. Fresh designs you'll love. Explore both@laloyrugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com and follow Loy Rugs on Instagram and TikTok. And now back to the show.
- [30:07]
Interviewer
So was there a magical book that this coach recommended or was there some eye opening moment?
- [30:12]
Nicola Cox
The first book she introduced us to was the E Myth. It takes a sort of a narrative of a sole trader who's got a great, who's a, you know, a great technician, a great individual with individual skills. But they've got a good idea. But how do they, you know, how do they carry on doing that thing incredibly well. But, but also, you know, take on employees, afford premises and then when the demand gets to that sort of level where you're struggling against capacity, you have to make a decision, do I want to stay here where I am now or have I got the energy to, or the will, the will to really take it forward and see where it takes us. You know, I think we've, we've just decided to be open minded and you know, follow, follow that path, take opportunities as they come along and explore them. Not all of them are the right ones and just be willing to sort of let things go and try something else. And I Think that's been our driver, really, hasn't it, Chris?
- [31:25]
Chris Cox
Yeah, I think from, I guess, formalizing your artisanal business, it's a strange notion for two artists. I remember when friends asked me, we'd open our first showroom in Ebury street. It would have been 2017. And they said, how's work at the moment? What are you doing? I said, well, I'm building a sales team. And they all laughed. All of my artist friends, all of my creative friends laughed and said, you're doing what? I said, I know, right? What do I know about it? That was a challenge for us because we'd forever been able to place makers, artists, craftspeople in our business because we spoke the same language we always had and we could place where their skills would be useful. We could latch onto different processes, different experiences and say, if they could do that, they could do this as well, and you could very easily see them in your business. So that was once people started finding us and knocking on our door more and more, it was easy to say yes to people and take people on as makers. But the sales team, apart from knowing what we make, knowing how we make it, knowing why we make it, that's our best selling tactic. But when it comes to the system of selling and keeping data, being public facing, client facing all the time, that wasn't something that we were adept at or necessarily wanted to do. That's one such challenge of building the team that I remember very well. And it's fairly recent. You know, it's just seven or eight.
- [32:57]
Interviewer
Years ago that you really put a team in place to go out and tell the story of what you're doing and call on designers and even come to America.
- [33:08]
Chris Cox
Yeah, and opened our first showroom as well. I mean, we had had a foray into America for 10 years, actually. We sold through a fantastic designer in LA and that taught us a lot as well. Some of it was great, some of it wasn't so great, but that's what teaches you. And I think putting yourself out there, either on the Fulham Road or in Los Angeles, there's a sharp spike in learning. You've really got to pull yourself together and get your head around stuff that you've never experienced before. So I think all of that breeds resilience. We've always been ambitious to make bigger and better pieces, so we've never wanted to slow down. I got excited when we could suddenly spend £1,000 on a piece of exquisite marble to put on our table or a beautiful bit of glass, you know, so that that was our driver to turn over. Not to, not to become rich, but to, to keep on creating more and more and more. And that's what I'd say to any young maker is, you know, be unprecious about some of your pieces, test how it feels to sell it, to get rid of it and start again, because it is your heart you're putting out there. But actually that was really healthy for us to sell pieces that we were in love with and make one again that's more ambitious, more adventurous.
- [34:26]
Interviewer
Well, and I'm intrigued by this notion of, oh, if we make some more money, we can get some more materials and do another thing. And, and both of you, and you can tell me if this was a conscious decision or not decided to be self funding, decided not to go out and get a bunch of money. I don't know if money would have been readily available to you, but you tell me.
- [34:51]
Nicola Cox
I think that has been an important element of control for us because one thing we didn't want to lose touch with was our, our own vision for the business. And the idea of investors is sometimes tempting. You know, it would be very nice to have a pot of, you know, a large pot of money just suddenly come into the business so that you can, you know, whether it's rebuilding your website or, you know, large chunks of money that you suddenly need for a project. But I think we're fiercely independent and we have found other ways. One of the ways that we're doing it is we have invested in property. So whenever we made a decent sort of chunk of savings, we would try and invest in a freehold of one of our workshops. So over time, now that we have, we've got seven workshops that are in operation at the moment, and only three of those are on a lease. So we're slowly replacing them with properties because we can leverage off those assets.
- [35:57]
Dennis Scully
I see.
- [35:57]
Interviewer
Okay. So you're making real estate investments in these workshops and the land underneath them, and then you can borrow against that.
- [36:05]
Nicola Cox
And then the banks are very happy to lend us money when we need it. And the banks are very nice to borrow money from because they don't have interfere with your business.
- [36:13]
Interviewer
They don't want to become an investor, they're just happy to give you a loan.
- [36:16]
Nicola Cox
Yes, exactly. So that's how we operate it and fund it, really.
- [36:22]
Chris Cox
And also being in control of those properties. Nick allowed us to invest in the properties unabashed. We're not giving it away to a landlord that might foreclose on us two years later. So we're investing in the buildings that's great for staff retention, the quality of our work, quality of health and safety, all of those things. But most importantly, we're in charge of our destiny. If you own a freehold of your property, you're in control. So we're actually working on two more properties, probably from the end of this year, maybe it'll take another year, and we've had those properties for a year leased out to somebody else whilst we plan and finance. So for the first time, we're really looking ahead, understanding the game, the longer game, and continuing to think about not so much growth, but training, consolidation and the space to build the huge pieces we're building now. We don't necessarily want to get bigger, but we want to get better at what we do.
- [37:21]
Nicola Cox
What that's going to afford us is a really great training workshop for our apprentices, which Chris and I and the team are very excited about. So we will be able to have dedicated training workshop and then as they get to a certain level, they will be able to move into the main workshops. So we're looking at sort of developing an academy, if you like, within the business.
- [37:49]
Interviewer
Tell me more about that, because that's an ambitious plan to really build out this training academy and you've been recognized for the work that you've done in training and we should talk about that as well.
- [38:02]
Nicola Cox
It's something that we know is the key to our sustainability of our business and in passing on all of our skills and knowledge and ensuring people are well trained in secure positions. And we know that not everybody, while a lot of our craftspeople do come from fine art or design, they've had, you know, been fortunate enough to go to university and study. Not everybody has that opportunity. So we've launched an apprenticeship for 18 plus college students who will be able to come in and do a three year paid apprenticeship on a proper salary. And I mean, my vision is for it to be that same experience that we had. The first year would be like a foundation year that you have at art school, where you dip into all areas within the business, all different processes, and then move forward into specialising in a particular skill, you know, perhaps in the foundry or in the fabrication workshop or patination.
- [39:10]
Interviewer
So, Chris, you were talking a moment ago about the tremendous scale of some of the work that you do. And for listeners who might not be familiar with the scale and enormity of some of the pieces, I'm thinking both about the Park Avenue Armory piece, which got a lot of attention, and then, of course, most recently, the extraordinary entryway to wow House, which was just such a remarkable statement piece, but give people an idea of how large some of the pieces you work on can be. And I want to hear about both of those pieces and the development of them.
- [39:53]
Chris Cox
A lot of our lighting pieces are nature designed, nature inspired, and have tens, hundreds, thousands of leaves depending on the size. So individual metal leaves, flowers, sprays, stamen and buds depending on the piece. So the first piece that we made and installed during COVID under sort of clinical conditions was a 35 foot long chandelier that was the largest scale piece we've ever made, actually in a huge, huge barn in the country in Suffolk, here in England. And since then, we're not afraid anymore, not afraid anymore to take on, take on these, these big pieces. So for the New York Armory during Salon, we were invited to put a piece in the entrance hall. It was about. It was over 20ft and we put one of our Magnolia Grandiflora in there. We took the decision to fly out in April and just spend a few hours in the space, photograph it, measure it, make drawings, sketches, and then come home and draw the actual piece one to one in charcoal. And once the team has made a 3D rendition of a piece and we're happy with it, we'll monitor it for months through the workshop. Once we're happy with the form, the size, the shape, the color, the negative space, the way it lights up, that piece will enter onto our website and we call that our masterpiece or our artist proof. And from there, all the variations can be created. So not everybody's staircase is the same size, not everybody's wow House room is the same size. So we're forever making versions, bespoke versions, and nowadays we barely make the same thing twice. Even if people step into the website and say, I love this piece just as it is, we will ask them what their ceiling heights are and make sure if it is, that's great. But if they need another foot on it, we're making it from the beginning anyway. So we can suggest a wider piece or a different tone to go with a piece of fabric they've sent us and really tailor it in any way to any space.
- [42:13]
Interviewer
And that gives people this sort of. It allows people to see the level of work that you're capable of doing in the scale of work that you're capable of doing. Even if not everyone has that much space, right?
- [42:24]
Chris Cox
Absolutely. It allows us to wax lyrical because we're the, at that point, we're the client, you know? Yeah. I always Liken it to either a rock and roll band or a fashion designer. You know, you either have your first album, your punk album that, you know, really kicks and everyone loves it and it's raw, it's what you want to make. And. And the same with a fashion designer. That the catwalk is their show. Right. And those things might not necessarily find a place in somebody's wardrobe anywhere. They may never sell and they're incredibly expensive to make, but it sets the tone of a new vibe or a new area you're moving into. And I think that's how we've always thought of our first pieces.
- [43:04]
Interviewer
And you've got these super demanding designer clients who are just sucking the life out of you with their demands and. Exactly. Exactitudes.
- [43:16]
Nicola Cox
We've learned so much. We've learned so much from that.
- [43:19]
Interviewer
Have you? Tell me about that. Tell me what you've learned from all those demanding designers.
- [43:24]
Nicola Cox
Well, you realize the mistakes you're making and what you can improve and everything you can do can always be done better in my mind. So if you have let somebody down, then what was the root cause? What went wrong? And we're constantly reviewing that in our process. And one of the problems with us sort of expanding so quickly once we moved into the bigger showroom, you know, a lot of people joining the business all at once meant that some things started to slide a bit and you know, really sort of making sure that they review that process. And I think they call them washout meetings or something like that now, where they sit down and they discuss what, you know, what that, what could have gone better for, you know, for next.
- [44:13]
Interviewer
Time and what's happening. Lead times.
- [44:15]
Dennis Scully
Get away from people or it's really.
- [44:17]
Interviewer
A lot of.
- [44:18]
Nicola Cox
It's the problem. Yeah, we. And then of course, sometimes you get clients that have a sudden need, you know, that's very, very urgent. And we try and accommodate the sales team by saying yes and then that, you know, you've. You've set back. Sure. 12 other orders.
- [44:32]
Interviewer
Seller wants to say, oh, you bet we can deliver that. Eight weeks, the giant 20 foot thing. You bet.
- [44:39]
Nicola Cox
And then of course, you can't control things like, you know, if, if it's winter and there's a, you know, there's a lot of absence in the team, you know, colds and flus like that. Because everybody's uber cautious these days, aren't they, about spreading, spreading bugs. So, you know, that, that sort of being able to sort of roll with that, having enough capacity to withstand it, but, you know, making sure that we actually, when we see we've made a mistake, that we go back and we analyze it and we really work on improving that for next time.
- [45:15]
Interviewer
Well, and was this massive growth? Because at one point you described one minute you were 50 people and suddenly you were 100 people. I mean, was that massive growth just attributable to the bigger Pimlico Road space, or were there just a lot more people that were discovering you?
- [45:30]
Chris Cox
Probably both showrooms, wasn't it? Ebry street, which we took on in 2017, was a small showroom in the right place. And at the same time, we had Colfax and Fowler and Robert Keim move to the street. Having neighbors like that, I think upped the Pimlico game as well, made it even more of a destination that it was. And then after five years there in 2021, just coming out of COVID taking on the lease of the new shop and then six months working, I think in January 22, we opened Pimlico Road 46. Both of those showrooms were really moving in the right direction. And I think coping with the Ebury success, the Ebury street success was one thing, but probably, maybe we weren't quite ready for the success that two big shop windows in the middle of the center of Pimlico Road bought us, actually. And I think that led very quickly to bringing our MD on and going through the motions of we have to inspect everything that we're doing and tighten everything up. And there were some key things that we did in that time, like opening a store for every element of what we do. Thousands of components, parts, materials, having a store where everything has a code, a Cox code and a supplier code. It's a huge piece of work. It took about two years. A new EPR system as well.
- [46:54]
Nicola Cox
Erp.
- [46:56]
Chris Cox
Yes. An enterprise resource planning. An erp. Exactly.
- [47:01]
Interviewer
An erp, which often brings a company to its knees.
- [47:06]
Nicola Cox
It's a formal process.
- [47:10]
Chris Cox
We were actually about nine, 10 months into the transition when our MD arrived and he took on that as his first challenge. He took on building a leadership team as his first challenge.
- [47:22]
Interviewer
What a good sport for stepping into that store.
- [47:25]
Chris Cox
We were partway into, we'd purchased and we were moving into. And he also decided to chuck in. How about buy another business outside of town into the mix? So it's been busy. Busy Two, three. Well, two years whilst he's been on board. Yeah.
- [47:40]
Interviewer
What I'm curious about with the two of you, as more and more you are stepping away and you've got this managing director who says, yeah, thanks very Much for putting me in charge of the erp. But what roles did you find yourselves taking once you were able to step up?
- [47:55]
Chris Cox
You're talking about it in the past tense. We're finding those roles now. I mean, well, that's what I'm wondering. We know what they are. We've known what they are for 25 years. We've been on a big arc back to creativity. But on the way, we've learned that running a business is a creative endeavor. And the approach that I think Nicky's brought to that, the creative approach, has been exceptional. It's just you get to a point where you say, hey, it was never quite built for this. Now other people that can do it better as we get bigger. And really the sweet spot for us is the creative direction, the vision of the business. Creating new pieces, pencil on paper, hands in clay on the welder. So we've built a new product development unit as well, which we moved into about seven or eight months ago. Has three welding bays and it has a beautiful open air space and offices and even a textile room upstairs. So all the trappings of a fine artist. Everything we could want, really. But it's finding that time, it's carving that time out to get back at the bench and really do what we love and where, as Nicky says, we can add best value.
- [49:04]
Nicola Cox
So we're on that path now, which is amazing to be in that studio. And that'd be our sort of four days a week in the studio and perhaps one day a week working in the business, which would be the ultimate goal, really.
- [49:19]
Interviewer
Well, before I get to where you ultimately want all of this to go, and I want to come back to the academy and I want to talk about long term, but I'd be remiss if I didn't ask you both how you have managed the additional complexity of being married to one another all these years. Happily, I'm assuming, based on the demeanors I see from the two of you, but managing that on top of the business and the growth and the pulling at each other about. No, you need to focus more on this. Well, you're not doing this enough. Which I'm assuming are conversations that must come up.
- [49:55]
Nicola Cox
Our daughter will attest to that. I actually asked her.
- [49:59]
Interviewer
I want to get her to talk to me on the side later, but tell me about how you have managed.
- [50:05]
Nicola Cox
I asked her about that from her point of view the other day because we were driving up the motorway and Chris and I were sitting in the front of the car having our usual conversation about the Business. And I said, you know, does that bother you, listening to us talk about our work all the time? I mean, it's really, I mean, when she was a baby and a. In a bassinet, I used to, if I was working from home, I had one of those little rocker seats and I would be working away and rocking her seat with my toe to keep her entertained. So she's been born into it. And I think that's the other thing for us. Chris and I have grown up really together. We worked out quite early on our strengths and weaknesses and ultimately, I think, because we both really respect each other's talents and we've always been really dear, you know, good friends as well. But we were very good friends before we were in a relationship. And I think that stood us in good stead, really, because there are difficult difficulties about working, you know, as a couple because you don't have that separation from it. But there's a lot of benefits to it because Chris knows exactly what I'm talking about. He understands, you know, if I, if I'm concerned about something, or he is, we understand exactly what it's about. And generally, you know, we, we agree on most things and when we don't, we, we said some years ago, if we don't agree, we don't do it. Unless we both agree it's not going to happen.
- [51:52]
Interviewer
And the vision for the business and the upcoming plans boil down to what?
- [51:58]
Nicola Cox
Right now, we love to see creativity thrive and be able to show that you can grow a creative business and still maintain authenticity of your work, quality of your work, and that sort of closeness, that personal touch to, to what you're producing. But you know, with a, with a reasonably reasonable size business, you know, it's, you know, it could be tempting to sort of say, we're going to do this product line and that's what we're going to sell. And, and then we'll just turn the workshops over to making multiples of things. But we're not so inspired by that.
- [52:41]
Interviewer
Cordless lighting, very hot right now. You could be just whipping out some Rhino cordless lights.
- [52:48]
Nicola Cox
Yes.
- [52:49]
Interviewer
Market's crying out for it.
- [52:50]
Chris Cox
We were asked to make cordless lighting 20 years ago when the first ones appeared. Australia do it really well. Let's leave it to them. They're doing a great job. But yeah, no, that's not, that's really not what excites us.
- [53:02]
Nicola Cox
It's more of a. Often something like that, something technical like that is a meaningful to an end. It's not the starting point. For us, the starting point for us is the inspiration. It's the what inspires us. Antiquity, the arts, nature, you know, all of these elements. And that's what we really want to focus on and not get carried away by a piece of technology. But that's not to say that we wouldn't introduce it if it fitted with what we were trying to do.
- [53:36]
Interviewer
Well, I just think about, and I joke, but I'm not really just because I think so often with a brand like yours that once you come to know it is so desirable and so many brands have tried to find ways to create greater accessibility. Let there be some product line. Chris was. I was fortunate enough to get a tour of the studio and the workshop and there was a moment where Chris was just holding a brass leaf, I think that you were working on at one point. And I hoped at the moment he was going to say, and you're each going to get one of these on your way out the door. We've made one for everybody here because by the end of it I was so eager just to have a little piece of Cox and I thought, yes, and it really did. And I came home thinking, yes, what can you create that could give people even just a way? Because I think I shared with you, I've. I've heard from so many designers who would say to me, oh, I wish that I could work them into a project of mine. I wish I had a project of the scale or of the budget that would allow me.
- [54:43]
Chris Cox
That's really interesting actually, Dennis, because accessibility is the opposite to scarcity. And I think by default, because we're making in, in, in London and our overhead is what it is, business runs the way it is and it's everything's tailor made. We have to aim at making certain pieces really for the upper echelons of a design companies. And we don't necessarily want to exclude anyone. It's just how our business has evolved into these more and more ambitious pieces. So sure, we could pivot into something accessible. And I'm not saying we'll never make a candle. We've made brooches, we've made jewelry and we've made sort of what you guys would call low bearing fruit, maybe a way in.
- [55:28]
Interviewer
I came home with a beautiful scarf. That was a lovely scarf.
- [55:31]
Chris Cox
Okay. But you know, the bronze leaf you were holding, that would have added too much weight to your luggage.
- [55:36]
Interviewer
Oh, the bronze though, was so.
- [55:38]
Chris Cox
I mean, yeah, I think it would have cost you another $200 to get your suitcase home if we put that in the top right.
- [55:46]
Interviewer
And some companies. It's funny, I spoke to the CEO of Schumacher recently and he jokes about coming up with the candle. He's like, the truth is the candle like this crazy expensive thing for me and I don't make any money off, so I don't want to sell candles, thank you very much. It's very nice that it brings people in, but truthfully, no, we're not in the candle business and that became abundantly clear. And I get that. But I think of Waterworks coming up with towels and soap and ways for people to just own a piece of that brand until they could afford to actually buy the taps. And perhaps one day the marble bathtub or whatever it is.
- [56:20]
Chris Cox
Perhaps we're not even self assured enough to imagine somebody wants a soap or a scent by us. It's not necessarily that we don't like the idea, but do people really need that, want that from us, or do they want extravagant, extraordinary, unique pieces? Maybe both, I don't know.
- [56:37]
Interviewer
And coming to America in a big way, what's the current thinking? Do you need a presence here in New York? Do you need that? You mentioned working with a designer in LA a while back. I mean, tell me, tell me what the thinking is.
- [56:51]
Nicola Cox
We've been mulling that over for the last two years. We've made a number of visits over to America and we'd absolutely love to have a showroom over there. But that's the question is, do we need to. And we really want to. Chris and I really want to focus our time on the creativity and really getting into that studio now that we've built it. And we know that opening a new showroom would be a huge distraction from that. So ask us in a few more years.
- [57:25]
Interviewer
Well, I'm thrilled to get to speak with you both. I'm so eager for more people to learn about what you do and what you make because you're both extraordinary people and the work you do is really quite inspiring. So I'm thrilled to get to speak with you.
- [57:40]
Nicola Cox
Thank you so much.
- [57:41]
Chris Cox
Thanks so much, Dennis.
- [57:42]
Nicola Cox
My pleasure, Dennis.
- [57:45]
Interviewer
Thanks for listening.
- [57:46]
Dennis Scully
If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line@podcastisinessofhome.com if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show.
- [58:15]
Interviewer
This show was produced by Fred Nicholas.
- [58:17]
Dennis Scully
And edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.