A (3:56)

And as you suggest, you seem to.

B (4:00)

Want to dive deeper into things and discover more of their essence. And also some of the greater discipline that is beneath the surface. It seems in, in everything that you have taken on.

C (4:16)

I think getting to a deeper sense of why, a deeper sense of what's going on, a deeper sense of sort of foundational thinking in sort of what makes it great is very appealing to me beyond just the simple fact that it is. Yeah, that's the sort of the geek in me, I guess. I like to study and I've always been both a student and an artist. And I think trying to sort of continually ask those questions and find ways that you can understand better, I think has informed many things in my life. Informs my cooking, it informs my singing, and it informs my design work.

B (4:57)

You go off to Stanford, if I recall, and are on a very different path in terms of your studies. Tell us about that. And when I guess a pretty major turn takes place for you.

C (5:12)

It's funny, on the topic of music, when I went to the admit weekend at Stanford, among all the things that just were so mind blowingly wonderful about it, including the palm trees coming from New Jersey. But I didn't study music. No.

C (5:33)

My freshman year I took a seminar in bioethics. And I was really enchanted by the curriculum and the professor who was sort of using bioethics and these sort of questions of biotechnology to ask pretty big, profound questions about human life, what it means to be human, the role that technology plays as we become more and more powerful and technology becomes more and more powerful, what choices would be before us? And this was 20 years ago. And so there was lots that was emerging that was raising questions about genetic engineering and reproduction and all kinds of things. And it was just a very, really, really profound for a young person stepping out into the world to sort of hear those questions. And I grew up in a pretty secular household and I don't know, in hindsight I Wonder if in some ways it was sort of an introduction to philosophy or even, you know, bringing in a little bit of this sort of bigger kind of, you know, questions about, you know, the meaning of life and the meaning of being human that I was just really drawn to. And so I followed that interest and I studied in that program, in the human biology program, all four years and. But when it came time to graduate.

C (7:01)

Unsure of what I. What I would actually do or be, I took a job with a tech entrepreneur, as many of us did at that time, not working in a tech role, but as an assistant, wearing many hats. And sort of one of the big things that I was doing quite a lot of were organizing these retreats that he would want to host around the world. And it was my job to find the venue and to organize and orchestrate all of the attendees getting to the venue and then planning all of the events and logistics and all the fun stuff and the meetings and all of that around it. And.

C (7:43)

I innately sort of started treating them as almost like small design projects. I would find the house, which usually left something to be desired. It was perhaps a very sort of special house on the water in Cape Town or something like that, but it would need. In terms of its styling, it was pretty flat. So I found myself, you know, sort of styling it and, you know, just sort of setting it up in a way that I wanted, you know, the guests to have a memorable and kind of magical experience. And this was sort of informed because along the way, as in young adulthood, I found myself just really intuitively spending time in the bookstores in the design and architecture section, pouring over them, looking at the rooms, looking at the pictures. And this was something that I just was so sort of interested in and curious about and sort of training my mind and eye to. And then I was getting to sort of play a little bit with some of these work assignments. And then one day, my boss needed help, needed a designer, really, for a project, asked me to hire somebody, and I volunteered. And, you know, fortunately, he. He said yes. And, you know, in a lightning round, I threw it together. I shopped. I found things that needed to be done quite quickly. So I sort of put it all together. And as nervous as can be, not knowing what I was doing, but just going totally on instinct and trying to assemble something that I, you know, thought, you know, perhaps he would like. And then when he came, he sort of took a look, looked around and put a big smile on his face and said, I like it. Well done. And next thing I knew, his peers had come, saw what I had done and were calling me, and many of whom were sort of young founders, tech entrepreneurs who had suddenly come into wealth and were doing their first houses. And next thing I knew, I had a fledgling design business.

B (9:49)

And when was this exactly? And where was tech in these days? So where were we in all of this?

C (9:57)

Was in about 2010, about 2010, 2009, 2010. Social media was just sort of getting its footing. Of course, it had been around for a bit, but it was just sort of getting its footing. And it was, you know, incredibly fertile, you know, soil for me to start a business, to learn to. Through trial and error and practice and sort of willingness to sort of jump into different opportunities. I got to really start to experiment with design, my own skills. And at that point it could have fizzled, but it didn't. And it was because there was something in it that I just loved so much. I just enjoyed the subject of it. I enjoyed working with the people, I enjoyed all the challenges. It sort of was endlessly fascinating and endlessly fun.

B (10:46)

And what were the young tech entrepreneurs, to your point, that had just come into large sums of money? What were they like as, as clients? And did they want a lot of tech in their homes themselves or were they moving in the opposite direction and.

A (11:03)

Didn'T want all of that?

C (11:04)

Oh, gosh. I think firstly, I think they felt really comfortable with me because we had even tangentially worked together for over a number of years and somehow spoke the language. And I thought about things in a similar way, kind of understood how they would want information presented or ideas presented. And so I found that they were comfortable with me in a way that perhaps they weren't or wouldn't have been with a more established designer. I think they were figuring things out. I was figuring things out. We were going on, sort of.

C (11:42)

Going on instinct, and it was a lot of fun. But no to your question about technology, I can say that generally everything was intended to be kept pretty low tech.

C (11:56)

And that's still true to this day. To any of our clients who are in tech, I would say pretty universally, they opt for lower tech options.

B (12:09)

Well, it's interesting because when I talk to particularly San Francisco based designers, for example, recently we were having a discussion about why don't we see more of these San Francisco projects? And a lot of designers said, well, I'll tell you why you don't see them, because everyone makes a sign, an NDA and everyone's very private and they don't want their life out there in the way that we see so many people's lives on social media and everything, the people who actually created so much of that technology, they tend to feel just the opposite about how they want to share their lives. And I don't know if you encountered that with a lot of the early tech clients that you, that you dealt with.

C (12:50)

Yeah, certainly, you know, I think it's a, you know, it's a private. It's a world that values privacy. It's a world that sort of isn't interested in sort of syndicating, I think, sort of aspects of their lives or their wealth.

C (13:07)

You know, they, they, they really are happy to sort of keep it for themselves. And a lot of ways, I think, you know, I mean, there's a point of view that it's about sort of a security of a kind a privacy. I think it is about a kind of inherent mind modesty that is a part of the culture there. You know, keeping things down to earth, you know, while they may be, you know, rocketing into the sky, I think in terms of their, their family lives, their values, how they like to live, I think it's important to stay with their, you know, their feet on the ground. I think they feel that. And that was felt very much in the early days, and I still, And I still think it's very much a part of the culture that.

B (13:45)

And did that have a big impact.

A (13:47)

On how you came to feel about technology?

B (13:52)

And even. Because I know you have some strong feelings there, Dan, about social media in particular, but I mean, did that shape how you thought about it or certainly inform it, if not shape it?

C (14:06)

I can't say that it informed my feeling on technology directly, except to say, you know, when you're sort of around sort of the people who are forming these, these things, you know, it sort of puts it into a different perspective. It doesn't seem as sort of omnipotent, you know, it sort of seems like, you know, a business, you know, you know, more than something that I think many people have come to feel not just social media, but just technology in general is something that is, you know, plays a sort of, you know, such a central role, role in people's lives. And, you know, I'm old enough that I lived in a time where we, you know, didn't. Didn't have many of these things and young enough where I'm in a transitional point where it's obviously a huge part of my life and the times and the future. So, you know, I don't think that there's any sort of one rule. But I, but I do try to sort of just. And again, this is just. My natural instinct is to allow technology to play a role in my life that is really valuable where it's valuable and additive, but not where it's not. It's hard. I sort of earlier was talking about what it feels like to be in a show or sing in the chorus. People coming together. Those are feelings that are just so transcendent that those are the experiences that I seek and feel good about with people, which I'm not going to find on my phone at least.

B (15:36)

And social media doesn't have that same energy or that same emotional connection and impact for you?

C (15:41)

Not for me. Not for me.

B (15:42)

And I don't get the sense that it's a big business tool for you in terms of driving clients or just a place where you're spending a lot of time.

C (15:51)

Yeah, I mean, I think time's a zero sum game. It is. If you're spending it doing one thing, you're not spending it doing something else. And so I've just always felt like my time is best spent focusing on my clients, my team, becoming a better designer through practice and through focus, by observing the world around me, by being present in the world around me. And it's not just this act of creating a video or creating something which is distracting, it just is sort of takes you sort of out of the moment and makes you think about that. But it's all the other interaction that's sort of required in it forces you to sort of be, you know, engaging with it, you know, quite a lot. And certainly people have, have used it to advance or even start careers or to really grow careers. And I think, you know, perhaps for those people with the right sort of chemistry with it and the right, you know, focus, it's been, you know, really, really meaningful. But I wonder if those people are more at the margin and that, you know, that there's. That if for everybody it's worth the amount of time that is taking them away from the world around them. I'm so, so, so happy with the projects that we have, the clients that we have, the team that we have. And I think, you know, and everybody can set their sights on whatever they're setting their sights to. But you know, I have a sort of a medium sized studio, about 15 people and you know, we have lots of work to do. I don't need such a big, you know, reach. I don't need to have that many, you know, people to be interested and excited by what you know I'm doing to be able to maintain, grow, and thrive in my business. And I find that really nurturing. The relationships that I have with clients and.

C (17:58)

With everybody in my ecosystem has brought it to the place that it is. And it's been 15 years, and I am just sort of amazed at how quickly we've gotten to where we've gotten to and the nature of things that we're getting to do. And to me, the sphere of my world is big enough.

A (18:25)

We're taking a quick break to remind you about Leloy.

B (18:28)

It's been quite a year for the design industry.

A (18:30)

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B (19:05)

So let's come back and let's talk about the evolution of your firm. So you suddenly find that, oh, my goodness, I've got clients who want the work that I'm doing. And originally it's these young tech entrepreneurs, and you do some projects there, but then it starts to widen and you realize this really is a path for you. So tell me about that moment where you're realizing, okay, here we go, and it's not just going to be me anymore, but I can build a firm around this.

C (19:39)

It happened very organically. It really happened very naturally. Over time, the nature of the projects kind of kept growing, kept becoming more interesting. They were always very varied, I think, and that's maybe a virtue of the kinds of people that we were working for. But I learned a lot really, really fast. And I quickly realized that to sort of bring to life a fuller, more complete vision for an assignment, I really wanted to not just do the decorating, but to do the architecture, too. And so I started bringing on architects onto the team and really developing my own skills in interior architecture. And slowly over the years, the nature of the projects just continued to kind of get stronger and elevate and just continued to grow. And I think a big part of my ability to attract those kinds of clients was that I was sort of carrying forward a lot of the sort of ethos, if you will, that I had developed for my tech years. And a lot of that had to do with the way in which I approached projects and approached client service. And I really have always viewed it from the very beginning as a client services business. And so it was really important to me that not only that the design would be great, but that the sort of experience of getting there, of getting to the final result was one that everybody felt really good about, especially the clients. And so I was putting a lot of attention and a lot of effort into how we would communicate, present materials, handle our billing, handle our proposals, and then of course, ultimately deliver on an installation that was by and large in line with the budget that we had established from the beginning and the schedule that we had set out from the beginning. And really following through on those sort of expectations that we had been a part of establishing proved to not only, you know, make it a much sort of more gratifying experience for everyone, but it was smart business because, you know, they had a good experience. And the next thing I knew, they were, you know, referring me to friends who not only, you know, they would not only sort of see the work and say, oh, this looks great, but then the, you know, the client would say, yes. And it was. It was really well run. And I think that that has been a distinguishing quality that's allowed me to sort of work on some amazing projects and for some really exceptional people.

B (22:22)

And do you think that that has been your. How should we refer to it, Dan? Your sort of buttoned up nature? Do you think that that has been. Because I think that that is something that has no doubt served you well in all of the various life exploration episodes that you've. That you've had. I think you seem like you're no doubt a good student.

B (22:47)

And you know how to sort of organize thoughts and structure. And what many people don't often appreciate is how much organization goes into pulling a design project together and presenting it to your client and then also reassuring your client that the financial side of the operation is being run with great equal efficiency.

A (23:11)

Right.

C (23:11)

Yeah. Design work is serious work. It is.

C (23:16)

It is. You know, and I think sometimes we don't sort of treat it with the right. The full level of respect that it. I think it really deserves. You're dealing with a lot of money for people. It's a big, you know, a big spend that isn't financed, you know, and you don't get. They don't get a lot of opportunities to practice. And they sort of, you know, and pretty much if they set out of the gate with you, they're in your hands the whole way through. And so there is a real responsibility, I believe, that we have to manage it with the right. The right level of care and seriousness. And I think that is in my personality. You know, I do take things, you know, seriously because, you know, I want to do a great job. And I think that that is a virtue that I think has been really, really helpful in my life and in my work. And I think it's something, I think in the business, we talk quite a lot about sort of trends, and people are often hiring people based on a picture or two that they see that they like. But, gosh, those are just so not the whole story. The whole story is what is happening behind the scenes to bring what is thousands of disparate parts together into a smooth landing for somebody. It has to come with the right level of planfulness and thought and consideration for it to. It has to be a central focus of the practice to have a chance of happening. And we've all heard stories, and I've certainly been interviewed by prospective clients many times who just come with stories of disappointment. And it breaks my heart a little bit every time. How we run every aspect of the business is something that we really put sort of professional services thinking. And that's partly why many of the team that I've built over time, many of whom sort of had careers in other fields before, before they came to design, they were, you know, either ultimately went to design school out of interest or made a career change because they wanted perhaps a, you know, to work in a kinder, gentler industry, which ours is.

C (25:44)

But, you know, but they have the benefit of experiences from life before that. They bring that sort of knowledge and experience to our design world work. And that was really important because I think early on I was sort of trying to do all of that on my own, but building a team that can sort of do that with me has been the really crucial, you know, has been key in the evolution.

B (26:11)

And have you found so. So often people will say, oh, you want to hire people who have been.

A (26:16)

In the food service industry, or you.

B (26:19)

Want to hire people who have been in hospital because they understand service on a whole other level. But what have you found with the people from different walks of life that you've hired? What have you found in their background turns out to be helpful in the design world?

C (26:35)

I don't know that there's any one particular industry. The qualities that I look for are two things. Communication skills. So important. We are communicating with hundreds of people on a daily basis, certainly to Clients where that needs to be clear and understandable for them and easy for them, and factual and straightforward and well, sort of written, whether that's email or in a conversation. But to all of our vendors, how we're communicating the information, the sort of DNA of the design, whether it's to a contractor, a fabricator, the breakdowns happen in the sort of the gray areas, in language or in specificity. And so really sort of focused communicators, strong communicators are essential. And then the other one, the other sort of quality that I really look for is emotional intelligence. You know, it's sort of the ability to sort of take a scenario, take a situation and react to it, respond to it in a way that sort of understands the perspective of the other person. Again, whether it's a vendor or something, a client, something goes wrong or whatever it might be, and then to be able to use that perspective to think through a way forward, think through a solution. So I guess that's sort of a third critical thinking, I guess, but that easy combination to find of communication.

B (28:03)

No, no, no, that's the thing. And so to hear that you've got a team, 15 people, I mean, that's, wow, that's a pretty big studio to have that many people that have been able to demonstrate. And it makes me wonder, and the early tech entrepreneurs and the businesses that you saw them building, were there elements from what they were doing that you took away and thought, oh, that's interesting to see their approach to running or building a business. Did that help in inform.

A (28:37)

Were they in any way helpful to you?

B (28:38)

Dan, is I guess my question did it for sure.

C (28:41)

I mean, I think that there's a real.

C (28:44)

There's a real simplicity in a lot of ways to how many, you know, startups and tech companies sort of think about things and it's sort of like how you kind of get to the essence of something, whether it's a process or whether it's a, you know, in a way that's very clear and very straightforward and very logical. And I think generally the design business sort of operates, you know, more kind of in the, in the right brain, you know, world of people, where it's a lot more sort of about sort of, you know, sort of a creative pursuit. And of course it is. But, you know, the other half of the story is that.

C (29:26)

It just needs to sort of move forward in a way that has a sort of a logical progression. We've made this decision, this meeting, and now here we are in the next meeting, and now we're going to make this next decision. And there's just a more, kind of a bit more of a methodology, if you will, to how to present the material. And that's something that I think now, I think tech culture has seeped into every aspect of our modern world. But at the time it was, you know, in many ways, that kind of thinking was new and also, you know, thinking outside the box a bit, problem solving outside the box, where you get stuck, you know, very often you sort of hear, well, you know, it's, you know, stuck on a truck or it's the this or that isn't going to, you know. And then, you know, I'm always sort of thinking to the next step, which is how do we get it off the truck? How do we get somebody there? There's always sort of a little bit of creative thinking to be done. And I think that kind of stuff I learned by observing. I also learned in my early projects where I was having to sort of pull off really sort of challenging assignments. And through them I learned so much about, yeah, creative problem solving and thinking on my feet. And those were, yeah, those were skills that, you know, have just informed every aspect of how we run the business. Today.

A (31:00)

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A (31:54)

Well, so talk to me a little.

B (31:55)

Bit about how you run the business.

B (31:58)

And let's talk about the often difficult conversations to have around, oh, wow, how much all this costs these days and, and how do you charge and when do you talk to the client about money in general? I know there's sort of this feeling of, oh, there's the right time and place to have that conversation. But how do you navigate all of that?

C (32:23)

You know, I think it's really important to be upfront. At the beginning of the project, we do what we call a discovery phase where we sort of really, before we even get into design, we really try to get our head. Our head and sort of hands around what the scope of the project is going to be, what that looks like realistically in terms of a budget, what that looks like in terms of, you know, a schedule, what that looks like in terms of fees, all of that. And we sort of do this. This pretty extensive study, which in turn, it feels, often sometimes feels like ripping a band aid off in the beginning. And I think that that's a. Yeah, it's an important thing to do. But, you know, again, some people do approach it differently, and some people feel more comfortable where, you know, there are aspects of it that, you know, will happen later. I don't also feel like we have to force feed, you know, information that they, you know, don't want to hear. So, you know, money is a funny thing. And some people, like, you know, love to talk about it, and it's like, paramount in the project and it's so front of mind, and they want to make sure that, you know, that they're engaging in something that they're going to feel good about. And so I'm game to sort of talk about it. And that's my preference always is to just talk about it. But, you know, some people don't really want to talk about it as much, and they'd rather sort of thumb through the. Thumb through the proposal and come to it on their own. And if I sense that that's where it is, I'm okay with that. As long as it comes with the, you know, understanding that these things are ultimately coming, are going to come to the surface.

B (33:52)

As long as they read it and then sign it, fine. If you don't want to chat about it, great. But it's in black and white that here it is. And has your whole fee structure changed a lot over the years, or. I mean, do you feel like you've landed in the right place with all of that?

C (34:10)

I think I have. I mean, we build for time. And I think that given the variety of projects that we work on, of different scales, of different durations, of different. Where we're doing the architecture fully, sometimes we're partnering with another architecture firm. Sometimes it's a lighter sort of decorative refresh. Sometimes normally it's a full thing. But because there's so much sort of variety in it, I found that time has just been fair. And I think clients feel that way in general. And I think it just creates a sort of inherent flexibility in it. And I think it's also always becomes pretty evident that we're not spinning wheels or spending extra time that we don't need to, because we've all got lots to do. So the time ends up being a result of what really the demands of the project are, which I think as soon as we get it out the gate and clients see that, I think they generally feel quite good about that. So that's been my sort of philosophy in it.

C (35:16)

And then of course, we charge a, you know, a procurement fee. And I think that those, you know, I think that the combination of those two things allow for this sort of ebb and flow of a project to sustain itself over the. Often the times, the many years that we're working on.

B (35:30)

The many, many years.

C (35:33)

Depends. It depends. It depends on what it is. Sometimes it's many and sometimes it's. It's one or one, but it really, you know, it really depends on, on what it is. But, but I do love to do something thoroughly and well. So that does tend to kick us into the few year category.

B (35:50)

I sense that Dan, I sense that it's not being done in a half hearted manner over at Dan Finks. But I'm curious, going back to you talking about going through these design books and being inspired by what you were seeing. Were there design greats of the days of yore whose work leapt out at you? Were there any? I mean, I was having a conversation with Thomas Pheasant just recently and he was just talking about Angelo Dongia and what an influence he had on him and how much he wanted to sort of model his own practice after Angelo Danghia, which was interesting to me to hear. Were there people whose work you saw and said, oh, wow, yeah, that really resonates.

C (36:38)

It's funny because now we do these such sort of finely tailored houses and apartments and things. But I think the things that I was really drawn to were artists homes. They were artists homes, homes that people had done themselves that were photographed sort of either their studios where they were their own sort of collectors, and they were usually kind of hodgepodge and thrown together of all kinds of bric a brac.

C (37:10)

That was what really caught my eye and got me sort of hooked and interested because I felt like sort of an outward expression of those people and their interests. And it may have, you know, sort of also resonated with me. My grandmother was an artist and she lived in the same house in Bayside, Queens for 80 years. And, you know, she had just every inch of the house covered with her paintings and collections of things that she was gonna use in her art and just other sort of, I don't know, articles of memorabilia and nostalgia. And all kinds of things that she had around. And it was always kind of a magic place.

C (37:56)

And then sort of seeing, flipping through these books and seeing these houses of people that sort of were creative people, were artists, and how they, with the worlds that they assembled, that was very appealing. But then, you know, it's funny, but.

B (38:13)

Then your work goes off in a.

C (38:14)

Completely different direction because I think this is, you know, this really. Gosh, this is full circle because we were talking about classical training. And I think there's something to me that's very appealing about taking sort of the sort of unbridled thing and the beauty of sort of refining it and refining it. And I just think that there's just an incredible something so wonderful and aspirational about something that's just really, really finely done. And I think that that was something that became more appealing to me. You know, maybe looking at, I don't know, books of Jean Michel Frank or something, you know, you just sort of start to really appreciate that, yeah, there's a sort of a romance and a sort of a something instinctual in, you know, what the artists were doing that I admired and still admire. But to be able to craft something using sort of skill where it's so sort of beautifully conceived of and considered and executed, that's like a whole other level of skill for me. And beauty, to be frank. And that's very appealing. And I think I've sort of sought that in my work as over time I became more skilled, focused my attention and, you know, built a team that could do it with me.

B (39:33)

And what do you sense is the kind of work that people are coming to you for today? Do you get the sense that clients have in their head some Dan Fink look that they want, or is it more that you just seem like a world class executor and someone who they just can rely on in that way?

C (39:56)

I think they seem to see things across projects that feel like they are two things at once. That they have a sort of refinement to them and that they are well executed, that they are finely conceived, but they also sort of have a substance and they have a soul. I think design ends up being born out of what I sort of really feel and interpret the person we're making it for wants it to be. And it's less about what I want it to be or my even own personal sort of aesthetic. I'm sort of more like kind of a conduit to help show somebody a vision for what feels really natural to what they're interested in and is perhaps a reflection of them. So, no, I can't say that they come for a particular look. I think they come for. For a feeling and what in turn, we're able to do for them.

B (40:56)

So to the point about not necessarily having a house style, let's put it that way. There's not a Dan Fink house style.

A (41:06)

Does that impact.

B (41:09)

I'm curious about licensing and creating product and whether you have a strong desire in that area. You're married to a fellow who's very prolific in that area.

A (41:22)

And.

B (41:23)

And I wonder if you feel there's some chair that needs to exist or some lamp that's crying out to be made, or do you feel like maybe the other half of the household kind of has that covered and really, you don't even need to worry about that. What about you?

C (41:39)

Well, you know, it's. I mean, Thomas was really, you know, a part of the beginnings of all of the sort of the world of licensing. And it's been a wonderful, wonderful thing for him over the years. It's a different time now. It's so saturated.

C (41:58)

And there's so much product out there. There's a lot. There's a lot.

B (42:04)

Can't help but notice.

C (42:05)

Can't help but there's a lot. I don't think we're suffering from a lack of product. I'm not totally sure exactly what the future holds. I do think I have a particular point of view that I think would lend itself to things and sort of. Yeah, I'm trying to sort of figure out how and where those things emerge in the coming.

B (42:27)

In the coming years. Are there drawings in some drawer that just happens?

C (42:31)

Well, we do a design product every day for clients. You know, we're designing every day for clients. And I do love it. You know, I think a piece of furniture or, you know, a case. Good. Or a light is like a. You know, itself is a room unto itself. It has all of the sort of beautiful components of form and architecture and detail and materiality that we sort of put into a room. So it is something that I love to do and we'll sort of see as time goes on how I can make more of it and put more out into the world.

B (43:06)

Okay, good. Well, I'm glad to hear that. I'm curious along those same lines and sticking with product. We've been talking a lot lately about quints and the dupes and everyone copying things. And what is your sense of how much originality or product integrity matters to clients or to people that you work in? The service of. And what's your sense of where all of that is going these days?

C (43:46)

I don't love, of course, the idea of the knockoffs and that sort of a thing, but it doesn't bother me as much as the inherent preference on furnishings and things that feel disposable or feel temporary. And I think as a result of so much product offering and so much that's new each season and so much, we're sort of in this constant churn of new things, new trends, and I think as an industry, a focus on things that are really made to last, that are investments in quality, investments in your life, at whatever price point that may be. Some people can afford expensive things, others can't, but at whatever price point is in your reach to make choices that are going to.

C (44:40)

Have legs for the years ahead. And that may be in its quality, it may be in its design merits. If it's something that you're going to be tired of in a few years, that's not a great investment. If it's something that's going to break in a few years, that's not a great investment. So if I had to choose between something that was a knockoff or something that was sort of a wholly invented idea, I would prefer the new idea. But most. I would encourage and prefer things that are going to have a lifespan.

B (45:11)

Yeah, no, that makes sense. Often when we're in front of students at the New York School of Interior Design, there is this conversation about.

A (45:23)

Is the best path to go out on.

B (45:25)

Your own, start your own firm, get.

A (45:27)

Your name on the door, take on.

B (45:29)

All of those responsibilities and challenges? Or are some people just going to find incredible fulfillment and delight in working for a great firm and perhaps in some cases, not taking all of the challenges of work home with them that night?

C (45:48)

Right.

B (45:49)

Because it's not their own firm. Or should everybody. Should everybody try and go out on their own and see what it's like? That's sort of this debate that happens. And I wonder how you think about that and how you thought about it for yourself.

C (46:06)

I think it's really a matter of your own sort of personal constitution. It's really about the kind of person you are, what your work ethic is, how sort of entrepreneurial you are, how willing you are to sort of.

C (46:20)

Work weekends and work nights and really never be off the clock. Because that's the nature of being an entrepreneur in any business, particularly when it's growing and starting. So if you have that kind of. It's an incredible, incredible sort of testing ground. To develop what works for you, your working style, how you work with people. And then ultimately, the greatest challenge or a great challenge, which I describe, is how you assemble a group of people with you to do it. Those are hard challenges that everybody has to figure out on their own if they have the sort of the personality and the interest to do it on the other side. There is so much to benefit from and learn from by stepping into the world of somebody who has a lot of that figured out or is figuring it out, but brings you along for the ride, brings you along for the journey, and you benefit from it and learn from it and grow with it and participate in it. You know, maybe your name's not on the door, but you are an integral part of something, you know, as a real. As a team, you know, really, truly as a team. And that's a wonderful thing, too. And I think, you know, it really just comes down to, like, yeah, what is that sort of itch inside of you, that voice inside of you and how you like to live? So there's no one right way, I don't think. I think it's really. It's sort of a matter of the kind of person you are.

B (47:50)

As we wrap up, I wonder, in thinking about design students and thinking about those who are trying to consider their path into this industry, I wonder what advice you would give to them, or are there. Are there things that you learned along the way that you realize now might have saved you some time or might have made some things easier for you as you grew your business?

C (48:16)

When I sort of look back on the evolution over the years, one of the things that I find was really helpful when I look around, I don't see a lot in the world, is I really tried to have a lot of flexibility and adaptability or agility in sort of what, you know, what sort of came before me in terms of the kinds of projects, the scope of the projects, the nature of the projects, you know, even sometimes what the fees would be, what the timelines would be. I think early on, you know, it's really, really important to. To say yes, to jump in and try and really put everything you can into making it successful. And there's a lot in the world where it's like, well, no, this is.

A (49:03)

Not.

C (49:05)

Possible, or I can't do that, or this is beyond my comfort zone, if you will. And I think as a young entrepreneurial person in this field, you want to just roll up your sleeves and get involved in as many different things as you can, and you learn from each of those different experiences in different things, and then you carry those forward. And then in time, you can start to probably be more sort of, you know, sort of strict, if you will, about. About the nature of certain things. But when you're, when you're just. When you're starting out and growing and trying to figure things out, you know, just say yes and just really try to, you know, discover things, you know, along the way that you'll then carry with you later in your career.

A (49:47)

Did you.

B (49:48)

Did you also feel in the early days, often designers say, oh, you know, I said yes to a lot of projects that I just needed to do to sort of get things.

A (49:55)

Things.

B (49:56)

Get things going. But they weren't necessarily emblematic of what I wanted to be sharing with the world, but they helped me get the business going.

C (50:04)

That's okay. Sure. I got some of those. Yeah, yeah, of course, of course. It's practice. It's practice, right. You know, I always say the design. Design is challenging because clients don't get the chance to practice. You know, they get one shot. They get one order on the furniture for the room, you know. Yeah, but we get to practice. We get to practice. We get to practice every day. And so really using the, the ability to practice. And that means, again, taking on types of jobs and projects or, you know, that are just outside of what maybe your own personal taste is or what exactly you want it to be. You know, if a client comes with something out of left field that you look at and you think, huh, give it a shot. Try to make it work. Try to come up with something that makes them, you know, really happy. And also sort of is a great, you know, use of your, of your knowledge. And in, you know, in time, you just, you just develop stronger design muscles that way.

B (51:02)

Yeah, no, no, it's a, it's a great point, Dan.

A (51:06)

Sadly, we have to wrap up, but.

B (51:07)

I want to thank you so much for your time. It's been such a pleasure.

C (51:10)

It was so fun talking to you. Thanks, Dennis.

A (51:16)

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line@podcastusinessofhome.com. if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.