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Business of Home Podcast
How Serena Dugan reinvented herself after Serena & Lily
01:03:24
The co-founder of Serena & Lily shares the story of the brand's remarkable rise, and what's behind her latest venture
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- [00:04]
A
This is business of home.
- [00:06]
B
I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking to leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is Serena Dugan. Working as an artist and designer in the Bay Area, Serena's chance meeting with entrepreneur Lily Kantor led to the creation of Serena and Lily in 2003. What started as a designer design driven nursery bedding company grew bigger and bigger with each passing year, eventually becoming the lifestyle giant it is today. In 2017, Serena left the brand, but she reemerged in 2020 with a boutique textile line under her own name. Now she works primarily with the trade. I spoke with her about reinventing herself after Serena and Lily, the problem with trend forecasting, and why she'll always choose self expression over sales every time. This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta. Responsibly crafted using the finest materials from premium wools to natural fibers, each of Ernesta's custom size rugs is hand selected by their team of experts. Constructed with precision and care. Let Ernesta's team find just the right rug for your project. Join Ernesta's exclusive trade program to get dedicated support with everything from curating samples to generating quotes and producing renderings. Apply for membership today@ernesta.com BOH and now on with the show.
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C
So I Met Lily in 2010. Three I at the time was a decorative painter and primarily a freelance decorative painter working with a big retail company on set. And I had come to specialize in children's rooms. And so in an effort to market myself to fill my time when I was off season working freelance, I walked into a local exquisite store, children's store in downtown Mill Valley called Mill Valley Baby and Kids. And I left behind a packet. As the owner of the store was not there, I left behind a packet showing all that I could do and all that I was about. And the manager said, this is something I'm going to pass on to Lily. She's out having a baby as we speak, but I'm sure she will want to get back to you. And I left it and thought, okay.
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A
I'll never hear she's having a baby.
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C
She's got a baby, she's going this direction, I'm going that direction. And sure enough, I heard from her the very next day. She was in true Lily fashion, already out of the hospital because she had work to do. And so I said, wait, aren't you out having a baby? And she said, I already had my baby. I love your work. I really want to get together. When can we meet? So that was my introduction to Lily Kantor, and we met a couple weeks later. And she went one by one through each of my portfolios, the first one being decorative painting, which was where I was focused. And she said, I really love your work. We can have you take over part of the store, and I can represent you to my clients. They'll love what you do. And then she got to the second portfolio, which was artwork. And she said, oh, I have a giclee art business. We can reproduce this. People can put them in their nursery. We'll include that in your section. And I thought, oh, this is going great. Terrific. And then she gets to my third portfolio, which were textiles. I had started hand block printing, my own textiles that I was selling through the interior design trade. And she said, I could really see these patterns on crib linens. And I said, yeah, I could see that not as block prints, but as green prints. And she said, huh, have you thought about designing crib linens? And I said, actually, I have what I would like to see. If I had a baby, there's nothing for me to buy. Market doesn't represent my tastes. There's nothing on the market for me. And she said, really? There's so much on the market. Describe what you're looking for. And I described it to her. She said, well, that's not what that. That's not what crib linens look like. I said, that's exactly what I'm saying. She said, huh, do you think that this is what your friends are looking for? I said, my job is to be a bellwether. My friends don't know what they're looking for until they're delivered, what they're looking for. And that's not what Crip linens look like today. And she said, huh, let's partner. And that was our first meeting. So that was in the fall of 2003. She said, let's partner and meet back in December. You present your ideas to me and we'll take it from there. And I remember walking out of there thinking, what just happened? And sure enough, we met back in December. And I sat down with her, and I was really proud of the storyboards and the collections I put together. I think that they really fully articulated the vision that I had. And I was convinced that she was immediately going to love them. And what I experienced instead was blank stare. So I sat down with her, and one by one, I showed each one it was blank stare. And she was. And I thought, huh, she hates them. Now what?
- [06:18]
A
I thought this was all going so well.
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C
And then I thought this was all going so well. This was. I saw our future. And she, you know, smiled and nodded politely and said that we would talk the next day. And I walked out thinking, okay, she doesn't get it. I understand this is a new look, but if she's not my partner, someone else will be because this is something I need to get to market. So she called me the next day, she apologized. She said she had her very first migraine that she's ever had. She said, this is a completely new look. And I said, yes, it is. That's the point. And she said, I love it, but I need to know that other people love it as well. And so she came around very quickly and said, I want to get behind it. Let's partner, let's do this. And so that was still 2003. Neither of us had any background in cut and sew or manufacturing. We had no business plan. She was very experienced on the finance, accounting side. She was a great merchant. She, she knew the market. Neither of us knew the industry necessarily.
- [07:42]
A
Did you know at the time what her career had been up until then?
- [07:45]
C
I mean, yes, she was very, she was very upfront in pitching her credentials so that I understood why I would want to partner with her. And she was also very upfront about the arrangement. She said, 50, 50 partners. I just had a second baby. You don't have children, you've got time. I don't. You'll put in sweat equity, we'll be partners. And you know, as a 30 year old young designer, that's music to your ears. So I had every reason to believe that she would be a great partner. I could read her drive, it sparked my drive. We, there was a really dynamic interplay between us where it just felt like, okay, this is the journey that we're supposed to go on. And so I didn't do any recon. I didn't better. I just went with my gut. And fortunately for both of us, we both really operate from a strong gut. And it worked. It worked out. And so Lily and I, let's see, that was December that I showed her the designs and she said, let's do it. A few months of learning about manufacturing and finding adequate partners, which arguably took a lot longer than a few months, but we managed to cobble it together down in Southern California and produce samples that we photographed beautifully, given my prior retail connections. We had a great photographer, a great stylist, and in those days we called it smoke and mirrors. You know, let's make it look like we've got a big, great brand behind us and put it forward and see if we can get the wholesale channel to rally around it, buy into it in the form of opening orders, and. And fund production. So we initially launched with a wholesale channel that kind of looked and felt a lot like Lily's store. And we had her store as an incubator to gauge customer response and, you know, be a secret shopper and watch how this client responded to the product. And we were off to the races. We had an immediate. There was an immediate appetite for the product and the look. And I think what we did right in those days was by acknowledging what, to me felt obvious, the industry felt saccharine. It didn't speak to me. There was a gigantic hole for a look for the nursery that did not exist, where that client, that customer, felt aligned with and spoken to in a way that felt respectful. And so we not only had happy customers, they were fanatic because they felt like we got them, and we felt a kinship. And once those babies grew out of cribs, they still wanted more from us. And it's a really, you know, we weren't deliberate about this, but in retrospect, it's a really great way to grow a business. You already have their attention and their wallet share. They asked for next. And we grew up the collection based on what our existing customer base was asking for and wanting.
- [11:29]
A
So it went from the cribs and the baby furniture. So then the. The child is starting to grow up, and so you're creating product for this ever growing, growing child, basically.
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C
Well, we were textiles focused. And so initially it was nursery bedding, and then it was big kids bedding. And then I found out that the big kids bedding was being used in actual bedrooms. And I said, you know, time out. If I had to express what our look is for a grownup's room, an adult bedroom, this wouldn't be it. Let me design into that product category. And once I did, naturally that needed funding, and Lily was off to the races, and her job became fundraising, and we just started elevating and growing up the product. It went from crib bedding to big kids bedding to guest room bedding to adult bedding, to upholstery fabrics to the actual sofas and creating partnerships for those rugs, lamps, decorative accessories. And, you know, for me, as a designer, it was incredibly exciting because I wasn't a nursery designer. I wasn't a children's designer. I, who started in a category that desperately needed reinvention. And in effectively shifting the paradigm of what nurseries look like, you're given license to think about that same opportunity as though it's a mandate where other categories are concerned. So I had a blast. I could not have invented a more exciting opportunity for me at that stage in my life.
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A
Tell me you mentioned about Lily finally has to go out and raise some money for all of this. Tell me about the early days of that and what that looked like A little bit.
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C
Yeah. We have experienced every version of investor and the earliest investment round was friends and family, which still to this day, that was the best money we've ever taken. It sobers you and focuses you like nothing can. You are suddenly partners with all of your friends and all of your family. And all of those early investors have had an opportunity to sell their shares and they hated to get off the ride, honestly, but they. We did some really great things for them by them supporting us at a time that we needed it. So that was the best money we've ever raised. And then our first significant investor, Forerunner Ventures, who, you know, they really do know how to pick them. It's an honor in retrospect that they saw what we were capable of. They were fantastic partners. It can be very tantalizing to have someone say, I want to invest in you, and suddenly you imagine all of your worries being gone and being able to do what you want to do and the money's in the bank and there are a lot of strings attached. And slowly making plan became the priority. Not tripping covenants in the way you're doing your business and the way your business is functioning.
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A
Explain briefly what that means for listeners who might not understand.
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C
Covenants are just rules that are built into the contract. And if you do not meet the rules as they are written, investors have the ability to take over the company. And so you're always walking on a razor's edge of we as a culture were risk takers. And I think that we built the attention and the brand loyalty because we said something different and we were point of view forward. We were design driven. And what that essentially means is that we are putting product out there that is not proven either in the marketplace or within our own business. And risk taking is great when you don't have far to fall, but the bigger you get and the more backing you have, the fewer risks you can really take because the ramifications for it not working get more and more extreme. And so I think that we slowly peeled back some of the risk taking and the daring and the point of view which if I were to look back on my exit and the gradual building of the brand and the business, I think that I see the arc now where I didn't fully see the arc then.
- [16:54]
A
And the arc being the arc being.
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A design driven brand that had a distinct point of view that really led with wit and whimsy and delight, kind of shaving off a bit of our edges by chasing what worked last season, chasing what the market is asking for.
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Right, right.
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And slowly starting to define the brand as a business where it is. Business first, brand second. And we grew because we were brand first, business second. We were all enabling one another to do bold things and to put our personality forward. And that slowly just kind of gets, I don't want to say watered down, but it gets a little safer bit by bit. And the bigger you grow, the, the more you need more customers. You found all of the customers who loved that you were unknown and then loved that they felt like part of the club because they knew about you and then loved that you were doing it differently. And that's only a small market segment, keep in mind. And then once you have captured all of them, how do you capture the next market segment, which is essentially the mass market? You do that by speaking directly to them, by giving them a version of what they already knew that they already wanted. And we really prided ourselves in this. When it was brand forward, we really prided ourselves on presenting a look that they didn't know that they already wanted and warming them up to something that was different. Even though they might not buy it. They wanted to buy what was familiar because you showed them something that surprised them and they respected your point of view and bought into your point of view, even when they were not buying into the point of view product. So all of that is to say that I think a great brand and business is made up of both parts. I think it's made up of distinct point of view and the essentials. And you have to deliver the essentials in a way that is consistent, it's consistently great. But the reason they want to buy the essentials from you is because they're aligned with you, because they respect your point of view. And you might not sell point of view, you sell the basics, but you only sell the basics because of point of view. And I'm sorry, that sounds like a riddle, but I really firmly believe that that was the secret to the success of that brand and that business.
- [20:03]
A
And was there a moment when you knew you really had a hit on your hands when you knew that you were really onto something. And the audience was enthusiastic and growing and you could see really building this. I don't know that you ever imagined it becoming as big as it did, but I wonder if there were moments along the way that made you realize, yes, this is really working. We're doing something really special here.
- [20:34]
C
I'm very thankful that right out of the gates there was pickup. And in those days, I was watching, I don't remember was it netsuite some system that allowed me to see what was selling when and what the reorders looked like. And I watched it like a hawk. You're just looking for validation. And I remember how nerve wracking it was the moment we launched. And then we just kind of sat there and wait. We waited for faxes to come through. True story 2004 Dennis 2004.
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A
And so who would the faxes be from? So who would be from the show?
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Not showrooms. They would be from our wholesale partners.
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Right.
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So we were not D2C. At this point, there was no such thing as D2C. We were wholesale only. So it would be in the form of reorders or new opening orders from new wholesale or existing wholesale partners. And at that point, when we launched, we had about 150 wholesale partners. So right away we got validation. And we knew we were on the right track. But we were just at that point trying to open as many wholesale doors as we could, and that's where our focus was. And it was going so well. We were then adding new new product categories as the these babies grew into children. And we were having a blast. And it was always a hockey stick going this direction. So we had no reason to think that what we were doing wasn't working. And then 2008 happened, the economic downturn. And slowly our wholesale channel, they started closing their doors. All the mom and pop stores started shutting. And we realized, okay, we've got to take control of our destiny. And either we let their business impact our business, or we look at our business a different way. And at that point in that period of time, we had started to conceive the whole home. What does Serena and Lily for the whole home look like? And we had gone out and gotten funding, and that funding had not closed yet when the S hit the fan. And they came back to us and said, sorry, we've got to lower our price. Your channel is closing down. The world is crumbling. And for some odd reason, Lily and I, we were so bullish. We were so confident in this Vision. We just said, no. We said, there is no, we are not under threat. And they said, I don't think you're watching the news. And we said, yes, we are. And so we came back at them very strongly and we managed to kind of ride through that doubt and push through to get what we needed to expand our vision. And not only did we at that time expand our vision into whole home, we also expanded into D2C as a way of taking control of our destiny. And we loved our wholesale partners. But we also acknowledged that there was this whole new channel that we were interested in exploring, which meant that we would have to create our own website, which at the time was not the norm, that would sell directly and we would create a catalog that we circulated throughout the country. And that was really hard for our wholesale partners. We held on to that channel as long as we could, but then realized D2C was kind of the wave of the future. And so that is when Serena and Lily, the brand and business that most people are familiar with, that's when that brand really launched, was in and recovering from the downturn.
- [24:42]
A
And was it always Serena and Lily? Was it always going to be that? In the early days, did you and Lily, did you have other ideas or was it just always going to be that?
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C
I remember brainstorming the name and we tried everything. It was our names, it was Lily and Serena. It was Serena and Lily. It was, you know, something esoteric, it was, you know, the name of a plant. I don't. We tried everything and finally a very dear friend who is in branding, we were talking to her and she's like, just do Serena and Lily. And we weighed out Lily and Serena and it was kind of a mouthful. And so we just, we landed on it and moved forward. There were so many decisions being made at that time. We didn't labor over anything, honestly. And we moved on to the next thing. Pretty simple.
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Yeah. No, no. And great that you had somebody who new branding and could say, yes, just go with that and off you go. But the significance of it being your name and that store in East Hampton opening, and I remember that so well. And it was huge fanfare around it all and I can only imagine what it felt like in that moment. And then it was really off to the races after that.
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C
Yes, it was. So we were able to articulate our vision in such a complete way. It was visual, it was experiential. There was the architecture and events and third party product, other people's product to round out the story. And we were really able to enter our world in a more complete and in depth way. And that gave rise to an expansion of our product assortment and an expansion on retail because that store worked from the day it opened. And so, yeah, we grew and grew and grew. And then, you know, I think that it was so significant year after year after year. And then it starts to kind of that hockey stick becomes more of a plateau that's continually raising. But it was always a nice, healthy business that showed promise and opportunity for new and better and different.
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A
And with that success came the attention of bigger investors and. And that at some point becomes a significant turning point for you and for Lily.
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C
Yeah. So with bigger numbers and a better performance and more attention comes more investors, different investors, bigger investors. And the expectations get a little bit more more real and more numbers based versus I'm going to go on my gut and I'm really excited about this product. And let's keep surprising and delighting. The appetite for surprise really starts to get whittled down.
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Right.
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C
And at that point I would say that to that point that we're talking about, it had been very much a design driven organization. And then in those years we brought in merchandising as a function within the organization in a more robust way. We did bring a merchant in earlier, but we also had kind of a directive internally that we weren't going to do it the way they had done it before, to take everything they had learned and throw it out. And we're building a new kind of organization which is not what any professional really wants to hear, but the ones who stayed on were really enlivened by that challenge and that opportunity. And so merchandising became a more significant force in the company. And I would say that we always described it as a healthy tension between design and merchandising, but there is definitely an inherent struggle between the two. Because merchants, they are numbers driven, they are market driven. It is their job to know what people want out in the marketplace and ask for that from the design team. And I on the other hand, said I don't want to hear any of that earmuffs. I don't want to know what other people are doing. I don't want to know what the prevailing look is. I do not want to look to my peers or the market to take direction. And that is, I recognize now, probably very difficult. It's difficult for a merchant to do their job with that kind of resistance. And I wouldn't say that I was resistant. I understood the challenge. I understood that we had to make our numbers. And I understood that we had to represent some core and some basics with their permission for me to explore and try new things and really push the look and push the industry. And we really did, I think a really great job of combining both interests and delivering an assortment that was sellable and delivering an aspect to the assortment that was pure point of view. And we learned to order light on point of view and order deep on basics. And we figured out the ratio and we were able to build a really strong, healthy, exciting business as a result. And at that point, as we were kind of going through this next inflection point, I would say that our business started leveling off and we knew that we were at. We were at this point where something needed to change. And Lily raised her hand and said, I don't know how to run a business this large. We're going to need some experience at the helm. And she was our, Lily was our CEO at that point. And we started searching for a new CEO. We ended up hiring a CEO that had big retail experience. That CEO was installed by our investors. And it became pretty clear at that point what merchant driven organization was and needed from my seat, they didn't at the time I was chief creative officer so I directed design and creative for the company and I was lead designer. So I would conceive of the seasons and design the textiles for that season. And that was very natural to me that it felt like once you conceived it, all you have to do is get it out. I had tried hiring textile designers to do it and it's much harder to get from them what I could go in and deliver. And that that in a growing organization is too big a job. And I was asked to split those in two and choose. And that required some pretty heavy soul searching. And I chose design because that's my truth. I couldn't fathom simply being an executive that didn't create. And I felt what it was like to live a role where I am taking direction and executing on someone else's direction and it didn't align with my purpose. Honestly, I have something to say. And it doesn't have to be a huge brand or business or audience. I just have to get it out even if it's one person as the audience, even if it's myself. And so the feeling of just merely being hands that execute was really soul sucking. And I knew that is what they need for this seat. I love this company too much. I am too invested in its success to not allow for the right person to be sitting here that can deliver on the new direction as it is being set forth. I want them to be successful. I am not the right person for this job and it is not the right job for this person. And so that's when we parted ways and it was the, in retrospect, it was absolutely the right decision at the right time. I have nothing but positive feelings when I look back on what I built and what we created as a team. There was so much thrill and joy and satisfaction in that taking that ride. But it taught me. I learned about the organism of a retail brand and I developed a skill set that really matters to me, that I take away and I parlay into doing exactly what, what I want to do at the scale and size and shape that I'm doing now.
- [34:52]
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We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Ernesta. Designers know that proportions make all the difference and that difference starts with Ernesta. Find a custom sized rug that elevates your vision. When you join Ernesta's trade program, you'll receive dedicated one on one support, preferred pricing and unlimited samples curated for your project. To apply for membership to Ernesta's trade program or to learn more, visit ernesta.com boh and now back to the show.
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A
When you first stepped away from Serena and did you have any idea what you were going to do next or did you just know that this is.
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No longer for me and I need.
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To leave and who knows what is to become of me or even who I am once I leave here?
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C
Well, you know, when I left or when I got the, the notion that it might be time to leave, I had actually started moonlighting within Serena and Lily. We had an aspect to the business called Art collection that spun off of our bazaar, which was my favorite part of Serena and Lily. And Art Collection represented lesser known artists online. And we sold art through our website and I loved, we found some incredibly talented artists that way. I simultaneously were opening stores and I was asked to paint installations for the stores on the side as backdrop, as visual display. And it's the first time that I had painted in a number of years. I have a fine art background. I was with a painting focus. I was a painter before starting Serena and Lily and I had really drifted it from putting brush to canvas and so the feeling of doing that again was really, really satisfying for me. And I had requests to sell what was in the store and then they said, well, why don't you paint some work that we put in Art Collection? And I did and it would Sell. And I remember thinking, gosh, wouldn't it be nice if. If I could paint more? And the only thought that was going through my head when I knew that it was time to leave was, maybe I can paint more. And I needed to just kind of jump to higher ground and do the things that reconnected me to source and to purpose. And I knew that that would be healing. And so at the point of my exit, I did not have textiles in mind. I actually had a very narrow view of what was possible for me from a product standpoint. I believed that you needed a retail, a big retail brand or you needed to be an employee somewhere to design textiles. I didn't know that there was this opportunity for small artisanal textiles in showrooms that are to the trade. And I didn't know that that wasn't a possibility. I just wasn't interested. I wasn't even interested in finding out. I needed to go stare at a wall, take some really long hikes and paint more and spend time with my kids and return to the things that I felt like. I had been on such a roller coaster for so long, going from one goal to the next goal to the next goal, pushing a boulder up a hill. I just needed time and I needed some space to recover. And so I did start painting. I was continuing to sell work through art collection, and I was also opening up. I was starting to work with a gallery in San Francisco. And so I was fully doing it. I was recreating myself as a painter, an artist in a way that felt very accurate. It felt very restorative to me, because in my essence, that's where it all comes from. And I think that the business had drifted from artistry towards sellability in a way that was appropriate and that I respected. But I had, in that experience, also drifted from artistry, and I needed to get back to it. And so I was a painter for a couple solid, blissful years. And then I had the opportunity to hire one of my, you know, really my right hand, who I kind of trained up from the point of intern to being kind of my proxy in design. And she wanted to join me to my thrill and great fortune. And we found a really great space for me to paint in that had room for her. And then I realized I need to grow into this space. I need to be doing more. What am I ready to do? What can I do? And I had visions of pattern dancing through my head consistently in that time, but no platform and no big retail brand to design for. And I didn't even want to start a small retail brand. I wasn't interested. I was very. I understood from the experience of building Serena and Lily, stick to your knitting. Don't get distracted. There's no such thing as I want to design textiles that become bedding and then sell it to customers. Then your job becomes all of those things. You are looking after everything. I just wanted to look after design and creativity full stop. And so I found myself actually in New York at Studio 4 and was chit chatting with the ladies at Studio 4. And I was just kind of taking it in and asking more about the designers and asking how it's done and how they get it printed and how that really works on the scale. And Kate Reynolds really gave me the encouragement to say what it was that I had to say. And she said, I don't even need to see it. I know it will be good. I think you have an audience that's curious what you have to say next. Go do it. And coming to understand that there was a platform for what I have to say in textiles that was manageable and accessible to me. I just thought, okay, I've got the right help with my person. I've got the right space that inspires me. I've got all the. All the ideas in the world. I'm going to get to work. I want to just start putting this out, looking at it as a collection and stepping back, and let me see if it's worth putting forward. And at that point, I put it back in front of Kate and she said, done. It was done before you showed it to me. And then I went down and I talked to Peter Dunham and Orly at Hollywoodome.
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A
Right.
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C
And they bought in and it just felt right. And so at that, I launched in March 2020 alongside Covid. We launched at the same time. And so at that point, we canceled the rest of the events. Everyone went into serious lockdown, including our factories. And my business came to a halt before it had even started. And then it didn't. And then the industry woke back up. Some doors opened, the factory doors opened back up. They could ship out production and we were all off to the races because everyone was housebound. And interior design experienced quite a boom in those coming months, if not couple years, before everyone got back on planes.
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A
Yeah.
- [44:06]
C
And so it has been an incredible. An incredible experience to be able to right size what I want to do and focus on a business that feels entirely authentic and no more, no less. That gives me the platform to say what I want to say and experiment and get some things wrong and get some things right and learn and grow and it's been fantastic.
- [44:40]
A
Well, and as you were saying earlier, and first of all, so often we talk about multi line showrooms and the support and encouragement that multi lines can provide. Often they can be this real incubator for small businesses getting going. So I love that you received this early encouragement that even persuaded you to pursue this in the first place, it sounds like, and gave you the confidence to think, yes, this is something I can do and at a scale that you could start relatively small scale.
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B
Right.
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A
And sort of see where it goes. Now you're in any number of multi line showrooms around the country. But that's often what people love about multi line showrooms is you have that partner who's going to encourage and, and support and help get your product out there. And at the same time, I'm imagining that, as you were suggesting earlier, a lot of what you learned building Serena and Lily, I'm sure informed a great deal of how you approached this boutique textile business that everyone is tripping over themselves to get into. Serena, I don't know if you've noticed, but a lot of people seem to want to get into the boutique textile business. They think fortunes are to be made there. I'm not sure that's always the case, but I love everyone's enthusiasm.
- [46:07]
C
It's so true. And I don't know, I don't know what I have to say about that. It's not an easy business by any means. So the temptation to get involved, you have to really be committed and have a really distinct statement because guarantee there's something being said that is similar. And so you have to know how you're going to stand out and be willing to fight the good fight if you get into it. So for me, yeah, well, it is a noisy, it's a noisy place out there. There is pattern and color and design as far as the eye can see. And you've got to find a way to differentiate yourself either in your look or the way you reach your audience. But those are the only two options in my opinion. It isn't that your quality is going to be so much better. It's hard to say something completely new in a printed textile where quality is concerned. We're all using Libico linens and printing with the same printers who do an incredible job. So I think that the hope for someone wanting to put their product out is really, again, it goes back to point of view. And if you have a point of view that is distinct and fresh and exciting, then there's an audience and a market for it. But just putting out something that looks as good and similar to something that's already there is no longer viable.
- [47:49]
A
Well, and I'm curious, Serena, what your thoughts are, but I have wondered and spoken to many creatives about this. Is there something. And I'm thinking of the design social pop up, and I'm thinking of a lot of these smaller showrooms that have so many of these boutique lines, and James certainly being one of them, and Studio 4 and Temple and all of that. Is there a feeling among many designers.
- [48:18]
B
That they love buying from a fellow artist, a fellow creative person, and that.
- [48:25]
A
They are somehow supporting your small business and you're supporting their small business versus them buying from some great big company that might be owned by private equity these days and just be on the much larger scale? Is there this feeling of we're in the trenches together feeling?
- [48:49]
C
I love the question because I think it's a tantalizing notion that they are buying from me because they recognize that I'm an artist and want to support my dream. I'm not sure that that's.
- [49:05]
A
You're not sure if that. Yeah, that sounds really nice.
- [49:08]
C
But really, it might be as simple as this goes with my chair, you know, it might be as simple as I like the look. I'm drawn to it. And it might be that some of them know my story and align with my story, and it might be that some of them know that I'm Serena from Serena and Lily, and that's attractive. I hope that that is not it. I have always kind of gone a long way around to not lead with that because I was never really able to explain in the Serena and Lily days who I am and what drives me. We were a big brand, and I am, at the end of the day, an artist. And I think that those designers who know my story in the limited way in which I can put it out feel that that makes my product authentic. And I think that knowing the story of the product that you're buying and the person behind it, and that it's a person and not a big business, it imbues a thing with meaning. And I would love to think that we will buy more products knowing the story behind them. So that would be high on my wish list.
- [50:31]
A
So shifting gears a little bit before I come back to some lessons that you might share with people who are thinking about this entrepreneurial path or even, dare I say, taking venture capital on in whatever stage of their business they're in. But I wonder, pulling from the news of the day for a moment, there's a couple of things that I wanted you to weigh in on. One, does the color of the year show up in your universe in any meaningful way? There's been a great deal of controversy about the recent Pantone selection and the white color that was chosen, does that show up for a painter like you in any meaningful way?
- [51:18]
C
I actually had to pull out my Pantone color deck and make sure that that was right, that that correlated. You know, they say white's a color. I don't subscribe to that. That said, I am in my art. I do do a lot of white on white paintings because I find them very beautiful. They're ethereal. But it's not a color in the way that we look to Pantone Color of the year. So I think that was slightly underwhelming. I do not take direction for what I'm finding beautiful based on what Pantone is telling everyone to do. And one thing I know now that I didn't know then is that there's such a thing as a trend forecast. And this fits into the category of trend forecast. And a trend forecast isn't accurate because they can see the future. It's because they are telling the industry what to do next. It is entirely possible that suddenly there will be a lot more white and off white and snow white and winter white in the marketplace, because the marketplace is market responsive and they are taking direction from trend and trend forecasts, and they're holding hands with their peers and saying, this is what we're all going to do next. Pantone said it, and that's for someone else. If I use white, it's because I love white.
- [52:46]
A
I sense a little bit in you a reluctance to take direction of any kind, Serena. So, I mean, I'm not terribly surprised that Pantone isn't able to steer you in one direction or another, because I sense that many perhaps have tried before, unsuccessfully.
- [53:04]
C
Yeah, perhaps that's true. I think the spirit of that statement is actually that I don't know how to. If you don't have your own internal compass, how do you know when something's good? And I don't know how to put work out that other people judge as good. If I don't internally feel it, like you have to have your own barometer of wow, this feels special. This is a statement worth making. If you don't have that, I have no way to judge whether I should be proud of work or not. And if I'm not proud of it. Why do it? So it's less about stubbornness. I love collaboration. I am really open to feedback in a gigantic way. But I'll always have to run that through my own filter of okay, I think I understand what they're after or what they're saying and let me reprocess that and grow a new flower out of my own soil that feels close to my truth of what I think is beautiful. I have tried in my past to let the market tell me if something is good or not. When I don't have a sense because it didn't. I don't connect to it and it's too hard. Someone else can do that really well. That's what they're trained to do and what maybe what they like to do. And there is an art to that that I don't diminish. It's just that we all work different ways. And the way I work is I have to feel it as good and not think it as good.
- [54:49]
A
Yeah, no, no, no. That makes sense. And of course, I'm teasing you. And the early days of Serena and Lily sound like they were an environment that of course you were incredibly collaborative and nobody was wrong in coming forward with an idea. And I think that was part of, as you described earlier, what made it such a success early on. And obviously that required a huge amount of collaboration. But I'm equally curious to hear how you're going to weigh in on the other big force that is showing up in all of our lives in a meaningful way, which is artificial intelligence. And AI is coming for design in a big way and is certainly influencing how we see a great many things. What's your take there?
- [55:40]
C
I would not call myself an early adopter. I am a new adopter of AI where I'm starting to try and teach myself how to use it in a way that makes me more productive and makes me better at sharpens my effort. And I am blown away, honestly by the power and capacity of this. I don't even know if you call it technology of this new thing in our lives. The potential of AI is vast. I don't personally believe that it will replace point of view. It can take everything that has been said before and synthesize it and redeliver what is being said already, that is market available knowledge. Maybe the point will come where it can develop point of view. That is freaky stuff that I don't.
- [56:38]
A
Even like to put frightening.
- [56:41]
C
I don't even want to go that far. But I think the mandate for all of us, particularly for designers, is to do things that computers cannot, that AI cannot. It might be coming for your middle management job. So step it up. And I think that we are safe if we jump towards the shores of creativity and originality. I lean towards the positive on this one.
- [57:15]
A
And in conclusion, as we wrap up, when you look back on the incredible experience of building Serena and Lily, as you and I talked about recently, one of the things I admire most about what came out of that was this incredible brand that is recognized so widely, that eludes so many brands, companies today, that are still throwing money and hope at building a brand as successful as the one that you and Lily built. I wonder what you take away from that experience and what you would share with people who are perhaps at that point in their career where they could, as I said earlier, raise some money or grow and are a little nervous about the whole prospect. What would you, what would you say?
- [58:10]
C
I think that there is room in the market for new vision. It doesn't matter how crowded the space is. It doesn't matter what the competitive landscape looks like. There's room for good. And my guidance would be to never let go of vision, to lead a brand that is vision forward and then let that guide the business and make sure that there is alignment within the business, that that is the priority before you raise money and that you are willing to maintain that and to grow with a sensitivity towards preserving that. So I think that for those who are at the stage where they are debating raising money, by all means, there's great money to take as long as there is alignment and respect for what you've built. The other thing that, the other point that I would add is when I was younger, when I started Serena and Lily, growth sounded exciting. I mean, who wouldn't want. It sounded like manifest destiny. Why would you launch into every crack and crevice and opportunity that you can push into? And it is only through experience. Now that I realize why you wouldn't. That said, I don't regret it. I learned everything that I could learn from that effort and that expansion and the nuances of learning this business. But I think that big sounds really seductive to people. And there is another way to be happy aside from growth. Growth, growth. And if you can only fund growth through other people's money, I would just be very sober about the trade offs that come with the diversion of your attention from the product and people and brand to the business and investor maintenance and plan and politics and organization. There's a trade off and that doesn't mean it's a bad trade off for everyone, but be very clear about your ambition and your goals at the end of the day and make sure that your goals are absolutely aligned because investors are in the business of making money and if that is not your number one goal, then already there's a misalignment. Do not forget they are in the business of making money and that is where you're making as much money as possible and that is where your focus then needs to align. And you know, I should also throw in that I was not mistreated in any way, shape or form. These are not evil people who come into, you know, debt, who come in to destroy what you've built, but their know how, their experience, their skill set and their mission. It's inherently not your mission and that navigating that differential is worth the time and effort for anyone considering taking outside funding.
- [61:57]
A
Yeah, no really important advice and perspective. And this this whole conversation has just been so illuminating and I think will give many people a far greater understanding of the whole process, particularly from an artist's perspective, which is, I think, where so many people listening to this show are coming from. So I particularly appreciate that part. I could talk to you all day and I know I've kept you for far longer than I said I would, but I'm so grateful to you and, and I've so enjoyed the conversation.
- [62:35]
C
Thank you.
- [62:38]
B
Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line at podcast@businessofhome.com if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.