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Business of Home Podcast
Jerry Pair proves showrooms are still vital
00:58:42
Dan Cahoon, the owner of the Atlanta multiline institution, shares his story
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- [00:04]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week, I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is Dan Cahoon, the owner of Multi Line Showroom Jerry Pear. Founded in Atlanta in the 1970s, Jerry Pear evolved alongside the design industry itself, starting as a small road rep operation and growing into a southern institution. Dan joined in the 1990s and helped expand the business and bring it into the 21st century, navigating technological change, a recession, and a pandemic. I spoke with him about how pricing has changed over the years, why he launched both a leather business and a software company, and why, no matter what changes in the industry, showrooms will always have a role to play. Hi, podcast listeners. This month I'm catching up with designer Amber Lewis, a former guest of the show, about her new rug collection for laloy. Today we're talking about how Amber navigates challenging times in the industry and what's next. The world's a little crazy these days in the design industry. Tariffs, inflation, you name it. Yeah, I'm wondering how you keep yourself focused on creativity and what you need.
- [01:33]
B
To do exactly that. I just focus on what I need to do, and I have to let everything else be what it's going to be. Nobody has control over what's going on right now. We're all just riding the same waves. When it can be great and we can get things fast, like this collection being in stock, let's use that to our advantage. Let's be happy about what we can be happy about. That being fluid and trying to be creative and roll with the punches is literally the only thing anybody can do. And I know that that seems maybe like a cop out answer, but isn't it the truth? It's the only answer.
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A
No, I think that's a great point. And I think back to how your relationship with Laloi was born out of COVID and that crazy time you and laloi have been through. A lot.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Tell me about why the partnership works.
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B
So well coming out of COVID going through these times currently that we are in with the tariffs and whatnot, we just have to stay the course. And they're a great partnership to understand that because they are grounded. It's a family business. They're grounded in knowing that, okay, what we started is still the objective here. We're still all objectively designing into something that we believe in that's going to grow both businesses and that's going to, you know, get us through these Funky times.
- [02:42]
A
To learn more, visit loloirugs.com that's L O L O Y rugs.com now on with the show. What is it in your mind that makes ADAC such a successful design center? I was certainly struck when I was there recently and you and I got to spend some time by just how much seemed to be going on. And there's, I gather there's lots of designers that have offices in ADAC or very near adac, and that certainly seems part of it. But, but what's, what's ADAC doing that some other design centers around the country don't seem to be doing?
- [03:20]
C
I think a lot of it has to do with the proximity to the design offices itself. ADAC is not in a business district, it's in a residential district and it's in Buckhead. And most of our top designers live work within a five mile proximity of the design center. So that makes it very, very easy for them to shop and to participate in all the events. And John Portman, who built the building and was the original owner of the building, was very committed to the interior design field and he personally put himself out there to, to, to bring in tenants and to make the building relevant. And I think that's carried over. You know, we've been there for 60 years, if you can believe it. I think we could have, we could have bought the whole design center by now, but that's another story. But yeah, we were there on the ground floor in a little tiny, you know, space that was long and narrow and that was the beginning in 1970. It has transformed enormously in the last 60 years. Could use a few more windows, but basically it's a pretty nice place.
- [04:26]
A
Well, I mean, as you say, it's interesting that Jerry Pear started way back in 1970, I guess in the very early days of this design center and also the early days of this. It's interesting what an important market Atlanta and the southern territory has become. It wasn't always the, the case. It was, it was once a much smaller market. Tell us about that, Dan.
- [04:53]
C
Well, it's interesting because I think the south has always been sort of the most enthusiastic community for design in the country. I don't think that that has ever changed. What's changed is the massive influx of wealth and population in the Southeast, which has made it a much bigger business. You know, back way back in the day, there were a handful of designers, you know, in every little market that were really successful because they were attached to a furniture store, an antique shop, or Something like that. And so when you would go to Memphis or Nashville or, you know, Charlotte's, things like that, there were three or four designers that were doing the cut the level of work to buy the product that we were selling. Because we're selling. We've always been in the, you know, high end fabric, textile, wall covering, leather business. And so what's happened is, you know, as the Southeast has become, you know, more desirable and we've gotten this population influx and Fortune 500 companies have just flooded into the area. You know, there's been a lot more wealth, and so there's a lot more growth in the interior design industry. And we have all these secondary markets that are really flourishing.
- [06:01]
A
Yeah, interesting. I really wanted to sort of help people understand the. The early days of. Because I feel the early days of Jerry Pear and enormous now showroom business in Atlanta and Florida is as much a story about Jerry Pear as it is about the early days of the industry. And as you were just describing and as we talked about recently, Jerry was sort of. And others, I gather, were sort of out on the road calling on people in different territories. So where's the best place to get into the story of Jerry Pear in the very beginning of this business?
- [06:40]
C
Well, the truth is that Jerry started off as an interior designer, and I don't think he liked it that well. And the joke was that he put carpet in Atlanta's most famous couture grocery store. And no, nobody could push the shopping carts on the carpet. So he was all about the aesthetic and not about the practicality. Hence he went into the showroom business. So he had some experience in interior design and he was aware of the. The up and coming brands that were making name for themselves. And one being Jack Larson, Angelo Dongia. And he went to New York and he talked to Angelo and he talked to Jack and they agreed to give him their product lines for the Southeast. And there were some other ones in there. There was Isabel Scott, Carl Mann. I mean, really, you know, names from years and years and years there. Great, great names.
- [07:37]
A
Yeah.
- [07:37]
C
And these guys were the founders and the creators, and they were involved every day in the business. And so Jerry created this relationship with them. They gave him the line. So he came back and was the. He was the road sales guy. And so he would go on the road. And back then they used to go in these caravans where there would be, I don't know, four or five guys. And like, one of them would be the decorator's walk guy and another one would be Brunswig and fee and, you know, some of the really old times. And they would go for four or five, six weeks at a time. And so when he opened this tiny showroom in adac, he had a showroom manager. And that man passed away. I think he was one of the really, really early HIV victims, like in 1971. And my mother was working in the memo department as part time while we were in grade school. And so when this man passed away, Jerry offered the showroom position to my mom. So she was the showroom operator and he was the road guy. And they would go like on a typical loop, they would do Birmingham, Memphis, Nashville, and they wouldn't come home on the weekends. They would either stay in a hotel and have like a, you know, a roving road party, or they would stay at a designer's house because they were all, you know, footing their own bills and they were trying to travel as inexpensively as possible. And back then, there wasn't a, a difference between the Southeast market and the Florida market. So then they would rest up for a few weeks and then they would get in the car and they would go down the east coast. They go Jacksonville and they go to Palm beach and Fort Lauderdale and Miami and then Naples and Sarasota, Tampa, and right up the west coast. And that would take six weeks. And of course, they, they always plan to do that in the winter. Right. And they would just be gone for a long time, selling these products and getting to know all these designers and, and really establishing a high end interior design business in all of these markets with all these other firms. And so, you know, we became known as a reliable shop that could take a product line on and market it to these territories and get designers familiar with them. And of course, they love Jerry. So, you know, that helped. And then my mom. My mom was running the show in the, in the showroom. And so it worked out to be a very good partnership for 35, 40 years.
- [09:56]
A
Yeah.
- [09:57]
C
And they were doing the hotel showings. So they set up in a hotel. We do. We still do that to some degree.
- [10:02]
A
Right.
- [10:02]
C
Set up in a hotel. And they would all have rooms next to each other. And the designer would plan to spend three or four hours and go in one room and, you know, see five Jerry Pear lines and go in the next room and see the Brunswick collection, go in the next room and see the decorators walk guy. And they would. And they would spend three or four hours with the designer. And then, you know, they would just keep that going.
- [10:23]
A
Well, and so. And meanwhile, back at the showroom. So your mom is. Is running the showroom and. And starting to. To staff up and, And. And in the early days, were. Were a lot of designers coming to. To showrooms back in the day or what was that dynamic like?
- [10:39]
C
Yeah, I was pretty active. I mean, I don't know how many showrooms there are now in. In ADAC, but, you know, there must be 80 or 90, but back then there were only 20. So, you know, proportionately we were getting a good bit of traffic. And, you know, we had some classical designers, Edith Hills and Stan Topol and Carol Klotz and Ann Plotz, that back in the days when it was kind of crazy and, you know, they had big, big personalities, it wasn't quite as businessy as it is now.
- [11:09]
A
Yeah, I mean, that's. That's one of the. That's one of the laments I have about the industry today. I feel like all of the colorful characters you and I were talking recently about, Robin Roberts of Clarence House, one of the great colorful figures of the earlier days of our industry that you and Jerry had a long relationship with, who sort of helped to really elevate the industry quite a bit.
- [11:35]
C
Absolutely. Robin was a character. He was. He was all that and more. He was the grand dom of textiles, and he was the first person to go to Europe and discover all these fabulous brands that were not available in America. So it was Colfax and Fowler and Conovas and Frey and just a host of others and put them all under the Clarence House umbrella. And that's the way that all of these companies got started in America was through Clarence House. And then as they. As Clarence House grew into this enormous textile house, then they realized, well, okay, well, you know, Robin's only buying 20% of our collection. We have 80% more. But, you know, Robin had such. Had such a great eye. He was really buying the best 20%.
- [12:22]
A
Right. He was really editing their collection. Exactly.
- [12:25]
C
And their collections never looked better. And he just built an amazing business like that for probably 30 years, something like that, 35 years. And then eventually when their. His business got so big, then they all decided, hey, you know, we can take over our own business in America. And they started opening. They started finding their own agents, their own reps to carry their brands under their own labels and sending in more product and that sort of thing. That was really interesting, except the fact that when they did leave Robin Robertson, Clarence House, then he forbade any of his agents that represented Clarence House to go near any of those collections. So we watched all of these lines walk out the door and we were like, oh, my God, bye bye Colfax, bye bye. Kind of us. Bye bye. You know.
- [13:13]
A
So you had to stop all your relations with them because of your relationship with him?
- [13:16]
C
Yeah, it was a loyalty thing with him and he, he wouldn't hear of it. No way.
- [13:21]
A
Yeah.
- [13:22]
C
And, and when he, when he would come to town, you know, it was all the bells and whistles and he would show up and you know, his gorgeous outfits with his hats and his.
- [13:33]
A
Capes and his ermine cape and his.
- [13:35]
C
Yes. And he would just, you know, give you the once over and look at you and look at the showroom and, you know, any utterance of a compliment, you're just like, oh, thank you so much. But you know, we don't, thank goodness, kind of, we don't really have people like that anymore. But it was, he was a, he was a character and he was a one of a kind in our industry.
- [13:57]
A
Well, and as you say, I mean, played such a huge role in bringing so many of these lines over to the, to the States. And, and I feel that, that Jerry Pear played such a huge role in, in bringing all of this to the, to the south and exposing all of this to this market. And I don't know, in your mind, you were referencing earlier on the territories, and I don't know when that got more clearly drawn. I feel like, I feel like the early days in the business pricing was, was a little loose and a little bit on the, on the fly. And I don't know, I think, I think designers, models were sort of doubling whatever they were buying it for at the time. And I don't know how the, I don't know how fabric pricing and all of that was really figured out in the early days. Maybe you can shed some, some light.
- [14:46]
C
I don't think invoicing was a big thing back in the day. It was like, well, this fabric costs, you know, $250 a yard and you might need 20 yards, you might need 30 yards. But that's the way the industry worked. It was just a pure keystone markup, 50% markup. But I don't think people charge by the hour very often. So it was, it was all based on product. And then that proved problematic for the industry because it didn't instill much confidence in the, you know, integrity of our industry.
- [15:17]
A
When did people wake up to that integrity issue, do you think? When did that.
- [15:22]
C
Well, I'm not sure they, the ones who were doing it ever woke up. I think they just retired yeah.
- [15:28]
A
So a certain generation left the business, and with that, their business practices.
- [15:34]
C
Yeah.
- [15:34]
A
Right.
- [15:34]
C
So.
- [15:35]
A
Yeah, no, because I always heard stories of Robin Roberts. I mean, he just sort of charged whatever he. Whatever he thought he could get and.
- [15:41]
C
Right.
- [15:41]
A
And I mean, I get it.
- [15:42]
C
If you didn't.
- [15:43]
A
If you didn't have the product, who. Who were you to say what he could charge?
- [15:47]
C
Yeah.
- [15:47]
A
But I don't know if the Internet helped when people could look at pricing online or when all of that happened, but it did seem like the early days, it was very on the fly.
- [15:59]
C
Yeah. Well, I think they just treated it like they did their shops, where they would buy an antique and they would just double it and put it in the shop. So they would just do that for everything else. Right. But the problem was, is that, you know, as people spent more and more money on their interiors and the trend, there was no transparency. You know, people wanted to know, okay, well, what are you paying for a fabric? Or what are you paying for a table or a chair? I need to know more than just what price you're charging me. Right. Because when you're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on your interior, then I think it's fair to, as a client, to ask, okay, you know, what's your markup? What's your margins? This and that. And all of that was very fuzzy for a long time, and I think most people have moved beyond that now.
- [16:43]
A
Do you feel that that transparency issue has sort of settled down a little bit?
- [16:47]
C
I think so, yeah.
- [16:48]
A
Well, we'll get into that more in a little bit when we talk about some other issues. But getting back to the early days, tell me about Dan Cahoon's arrival in the business. Because it wasn't. Wasn't where you went first, right?
- [17:04]
C
I mean, no, I was just a kid around it.
- [17:07]
A
Yeah.
- [17:07]
C
You know, I grew up every evening, you know, listening to my mom talk about the business and, you know, talking to Jerry Pear occasionally about what was happening, what was going on. It was very exciting because their business was growing all the time. So there was a lot of positive enthusiasm about where the business was going and that their showrooms were getting larger and they were taking on more lines and adding more staff. And, you know, I was just a kid in grade school when my mother started working for Jerry. And our elementary school football team would play football at the park across the street from adac. And so it was perfect for my mother because I could walk from school to the practice field and then practice from, like 3:30 to 5:30. And then when I was finished. I'd walk over to the showroom, but Jerry would never let me in the showroom. He would look at. Look at me in my, you know, filthy uniform in my cleats, and say, you can just sit right here on the curb until your mother's finished. So I never got to see the inside of the shower for quite a long time. But anyways, so I was exposed to it, but from. You know. And no, I'm a little bit of an oddity because I'm a finance guy. I'm a finance major who figured out that I really did like all of this decorative talk with textiles and color and fashion and style. And so when I graduated school, I went into the apparel industry because I. I did feel a connection to it, but I didn't want to go into the same industry as. As my mother. So I did that for six years or so. I was living in Cleveland, Ohio, when I was in that. In that business in the apparel industry. And my younger brother got sick with cancer in Atlanta, and the whole family was going through a lot of trauma trying to support him. And my brother was a bone marrow transplant donor. My mother took a leave of absence, so I quit my job in Cleveland and I moved back to Atlanta and decided that I was going to try to get into the furniture and fabric business. And so there was a showroom at adac, and there were two ladies that were looking to sell that business. And we went down this path of due diligence and all this sort of thing. And Jerry was consulting me the entire time. And finally, you know, we'd been talking about this for a year. He just said, well, if you want to buy a business, why don't you just buy my business? And so he said, I'm. But I'm too young. I don't want to retire. So he's like, you know, if you. If we can work together, right, you can buy the business and we'll work together. And it just turned out to be a beautiful thing. And we worked together for, you know, 20 plus years. And we just have had a great relationship all these years with Jerry and my mom, and Jerry's the godfather of my daughter, and now my daughter's in the business. She just started 60 days ago.
- [19:56]
A
Is that right? In what capacity?
- [19:58]
C
She is on the fifth floor in Atlanta selling furniture and fabric and wall covering and leather. Okay. Getting to know all the. Yeah, she had a little bit of experience in New York working for Cowton and Tout, and she worked for designer in New York.
- [20:12]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [20:14]
C
Yeah, she's been up there a couple of years, you know, getting her feet wet. And so now she's, she's back and so the business has been around for 56 years now. So hopefully we can stretch it out a little longer.
- [20:27]
A
Well, would you, would you love that if, if, if eventually it did sort of pass on to, to your daughter and whoever else in your family?
- [20:34]
C
I mean, yeah, I think that would be amazing because it's, you know, family businesses are difficult to continue and Jerry Perry has a great legacy, great reputation. It's a great business for a woman to be in much. It's a easier fit than it is for me.
- [20:50]
A
How so?
- [20:51]
C
Well, just being a straight guy in this industry, you know, I'm like the.
- [20:54]
A
It'S lonely, isn't it Dan, you and I, it's hard being heterosexual males in this industry. I'm so glad you brought this up. It's an issue that doesn't get enough attention.
- [21:04]
C
It's hard. It does have its benefits, but it's, but we're not going to talk about that. But I, I, I'm excited for her to, you know, be part of the company and, and really, you know, carry on as, as long as she's excited about it and is passionate about it. Right? Yeah, yeah. I always think there's going to be room for this, the independent rep, showroom business in our industry because there are always new product lines that need tender loving care and they need to be introduced and they need to be romanced and then they need to be taken to the marketplace. And out of all those lines that we, that we represent or that we take on, you know, maybe 10% of them turn out to be big lines and you know, maybe 30 or 40% of them end up being medium sized lines and the other, the lower 50%, they don't really make it. They come on board and they're, you know, they're around for a few years and then they're gone. But you know, it's exciting because we're sort of on the front edge of introducing lines and recognizing talent in the industry and deciding whether we think that that's going to be appropriate for our market. And that's kind of a cool job.
- [22:14]
A
Well, it's interesting that you frame it that way and I think that's one of the things that's often misunderstood about the multi line model. I equate it in many ways to the venture capital model. To your point that you bring in all of these different lines and nurture them and incubate them and introduce them to, to designers, knowing full well that some of them might not work out. There just might not be the staying power or the, or the product doesn't resonate. Other people don't get as excited as you might have gotten when you first saw it. I mean there are a host of different reasons, but then to your point, other lines go on to huge success and then ultimately leave you and, and grow out and go off to on their own. And that's, that's part of the process as well. So I mean it's, it's this whole sort of different scale of outcomes that you don't know in the beginning how it will all play out.
- [23:10]
C
Luckily, there are some big lines that never want to be in the showroom business, never want to own their own spaces and they end up staying with you forever. And they're right, they're, they're, you know, the mainstays of your business. And you know, we're fortunate to have these relationships for 30, 35 years.
- [23:25]
A
So who are those companies for you? Let's tell us some of the big lines that have come and stayed well.
- [23:31]
C
Like in, in furniture, Denison Lean Formations.
- [23:35]
A
Right.
- [23:36]
C
Rose Tarlow. You know, they might have a flagship in New York and la, but they're not interested in opening in all these secondary markets because it's a lot of additional responsibility because you have real estate holdings and you gotta hire staff. And you know, they, a lot of these companies are really want to stay focused on their creative aspect of their company designing product. So that's good for us when we have a long relationship with a company like that.
- [24:03]
A
Yeah, no, no, it's a great business from that perspective. I'm wondering when you arrive on the scene in 1990, I guess it is roughly when you come on board, what was the state of things at the time? Had the territories been more cleanly drawn by that time? I know that that comes to play a big role in the multi line relationships. And what were some of the challenges that evolved for the multi line business? It seems like rents going up was one of the big challenges. But what were some of the other things that you had to contend with prior to the great financial crisis, which we'll unfortunately have to talk about? Dan?
- [24:43]
C
Yeah, I'm trying to forget it. We can bring it up. You know, in 1990 the industry was growing and from Jerry Pear's point of view. JERRY PEAR SHOWROOM we were very much a textile, wall covering leather business. And so when I came on board, there were other showrooms around the country that were starting to get very heavily involved in furniture. And so we quickly decided, okay, we need to be involved in the furniture business. And so that's when we came on. We, you know, we had represented Kruger Espinio before Kneedler owned it, Descent Fournier when they were new as an upstart. Denison Link formations. We had them back when they were only an accessories company out of LA and an antique shop. You know, J. Robert Scott. Sally Serkin Lewis. Yes. Back in the day she was huge. And she started off as a multi line showroom owner in California and designed, you know, developed her textiles and furniture. And so she was a big part of our program when we started growing, really expanding in the 90s. So we, you know, we were looking at just expanding our offering and basically becoming a you know, super lux, high end resource to the, to the design trade and, and creating a, you know, basically a mini department store for people to shop. And with that came the need for larger showrooms. And then with the larger showrooms then the design centers kept expanding. And with the design centers expanding then you had, I would say more professional landlords get in the business because before it was always kind of a one off building that was owned by a local landlord. But then once the industry sort of morphed into this thing where everybody had to be in the same location in every city. Well, it's a landlord's dream right that they have all these tenants that are locked into this location and they can't, they can't survive if they go out by themselves. So that started to change the nature of leasing and real estate in our industry. And I think even that has come full circle now and it's kind of calming down.
- [26:53]
A
Well, I mean it's interesting. I, I don't know how Charles Cohen fits into all of this, but at one point obviously had had the Dakota had. He's just recently lost control of the decorative center in, in Houston. But to your point he had the PDC and the D and D building and so suddenly you had one landlord for quite a few of the important spaces. And there was certainly a sense that with that came sort of a stranglehold that he would have on many of these businesses who were operating in so many of the key markets and rents seemed to rise quite a bit over time. Yes.
- [27:31]
C
Yeah, it's no fun doing business with, with dangling from a thread off a bridge, you know, with a. With Charles Cohen controlling a lot of the interior design marketplaces. He bought the Dakota from the Dantos early 2000s. But he, he owned the D and D building. And we, Jerry Perry, New York was in business from 2003 till 2018. So we were in New York for 15 years. And then the Portmans, of course, owned Atlanta. But yeah, Charles Cohen was definitely not a positive influence in our industry for all these years because he would leverage one showroom against the other showroom and one lease against the other lease. And, you know, it just became, you know, it was just not a way that you want to do business. You're much better off if you have independent landlords in each market.
- [28:22]
A
Well, and you ultimately, as you say, in 2018, you left the D and D building in New York. And I gather that that made sense for you because it wasn't as big a money maker for you with the big expense of that showroom.
- [28:37]
C
Well, we had a great business there. We had fantastic lines. We did a great volume. I think we performed really well in the design community. But it was the most difficult market to manage. Between employees, in between dealing with the leases. It just became like, like I said, between Atlanta and Florida. It took the most time and made the least amount of money. And at the same time, I had also started Cherry Pear Leather. And Jerry Pear Leather was growing very, very quickly from launching it in Atlanta and Florida to a year later, we had national distribution at all the top multi line Shermans across the country. And so that was taking up a lot of my time, and it was actually much more profitable. I just decided that my time was better spent focusing on that rather than New York. And, you know, my time there was very worthwhile.
- [29:31]
A
This month, I'm catching up with Amber Lewis about her new rug collection for laloy. Now that you've launched this great big collection and you're seeing the, the reaction to it, does it make you already think about what you want to do next with. With Liloy and what?
- [29:50]
B
Yeah, I mean, yeah, we've already designed.
- [29:52]
A
Yeah, silly.
- [29:53]
B
We've literally already designed the next collection. Like I told you, I'm already in the future. I'm designing into 2039.
- [30:01]
C
Right.
- [30:02]
A
I wonder. Well, so, I mean, without sort of giving anything away, what, what, what can you tease us with? Well, it'll be groundbreaking, for sure.
- [30:13]
B
No, I do think that, you know, it's funny. It's like we're always wanting again, wanting to do something different, wanting to do something that helps you evolve to the next thing. Unfortunately, I haven't evolved much past what I like. What I like is what I like. But that's also kind of part of the Timeless, classic way that I design. I'm not trying to reinvent myself. Every single time I introduce a new product or collection, I want it to feel like an evolution. I don't want it to feel like, here, now I'm going to ram this down your throat, buy this, find this idea. No, it's going to be always looking like Amber Lewis designed it, but it always is just going to be evolving, but reaching a wider audience.
- [30:52]
A
To learn more, visit loloirugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com and now back to the show. So talk about the launch of Jerry Peard leather and what led up to that. And tell us the story of the whole thing, because it's become go out of business, Dan.
- [31:12]
C
No, it's. It's fantastic. It really is born out of necessity. We had sold leather, you know, since 1970. We used to represent Lackawanna leather. We represented Edelman leather, we represented Holly Hunt leather. And there was a time, I guess from about 2004 to 2006, where we didn't have a leather line and we couldn't find a good leather line. We had tried a couple of leather lines that didn't perform. They were under capitalized, or. That's the thing about representing lines is they not only have to have pretty product, but they have to be capitalized. They have to have good operations. They have to have people that answer the phone, you know, that kind of thing.
- [31:51]
A
Those kind of things.
- [31:52]
C
Yeah, those kind of, you know, annoying little things. Because our industry is full of product lines that are run as a hobby.
- [31:58]
A
Right, right.
- [31:59]
C
And so, you know, we try to avoid the. Those kind of product lines. But after going two or three years without having a leather line to sell, I just decided, I think I could probably do this myself. So I hopped on a plane, I went to Italy, and I found some tanneries that could set me up. And with creating a product line of about, I don't know, probably 50 SKUs, we probably had three or four different collections that we had at that point. And we did a combination of. Back then, you know, the. The tanneries only offered leather and black, brown and tan. So you ever. The whole color palette had to be rounded out. So we had to invest, you know, in the color palette. When we started the company, I mean, it seemed like every textile that was coming out was named Grand Palais or, you know, or Petite Versailles. And so we're like, oh, my God, I can't. I can't name another product with this ostentatious over the top flowery name. So we decided that we were going to create all these cow puns to name all the cherry pear leathers. And so we started off with, you know, Dairy Queen and Hyde, Hide Society and Bessie. You know, our new one is heffortless, so it's kind of a shtick, but we like doing it. We like kind of making fun of ourselves. And I, you know, and I think it's a very solid collection that we now have representation for, you know, throughout the U.S. canada, UK we have a new showroom that opened in Amsterdam. We have representation in Shanghai, Hong Kong.
- [33:40]
A
So is that your own showroom in Amsterdam?
- [33:42]
C
No, no, these are rep. Showrooms.
- [33:43]
A
Got it. Okay.
- [33:44]
C
These are, these are independents. Yeah.
- [33:46]
A
Is that a good market, Amsterdam?
- [33:47]
C
Is that, you know, it's just, it's just getting started, but interesting. The vat. The VAT is about to push me over the edge because that is a whole world unto itself.
- [33:58]
A
The European market seems pretty challenging for people in general.
- [34:01]
C
Well, it is. We had to figure out how to have local bank accounts in every European country, which is now possible because of digital banks. We had to create online billing so that we could bill in their currency. We had to figure out all of the, the VAT taxes for importing from a European country to a European country, from the US To Europe, you know, all the different entities to pay. You know, it's, it's challenging. There's a lot, there's a lot of moving parts that are not money makers where you have, you have to sort all that out before you can really get into it.
- [34:41]
A
Yeah, it's. It's a lot. And the, and the vat, as you say, is. Is complicated. Thank goodness we don't have that here in the States. Oh, wait, I don't know. Are the tariffs our version of a.
- [34:56]
C
Great segue into tariffs?
- [34:58]
A
I don't know. I don't know. But before I even get into that, what I'm curious about, you made an interesting reference earlier that I think is definitely one of the challenges in our business is that there's some people out there that are hobbyists, to use your. Your word. And part of your challenge is figuring out, okay, who's really in this from. From a business perspective that, that you want to invest with and partner with. I wonder if over the years you've been able to identify when, when small lines come to you, whether fabric lines or whatever the product line is, if you've been able to. To better judge who's going to be successful, what are the characteristics that People demonstrate to you because I'm sure you are pitched a lot with, oh, please, won't you represent my line in the showroom? What, how do you know who's going to make it and who isn't? Or what have you learned about that over the years?
- [35:56]
C
Yeah, that's a really interesting question because we always say that, you know, just because your product is pretty doesn't mean you're going to be successful. And just because you're well capitalized and you run a tight business doesn't mean you're going to be successful. It's the blend of the two. Right. And so as we have matured in this business, we've gotten better at asking all the questions that we need to add, ask to determine whether, you know, these potential partners are going to take this as serious as we take it. Because we do it, you know, nine to five, five days a week, you know, 50 years, you know, and so we're like completely involved. And once we get involved with the company, you know, we're pretty demanding because we, you know, we need all these memos, we need road lines, we need wings, we need samples, we need answers, we need stock, we need this, we need that. And so when I was younger, I used to go to Europe a lot and find companies that I thought were amazing. Big mistake. Don't ever do that. Wait till they come to. Wait till they come to you, you know, because they're not ready.
- [36:56]
A
So that's what it was. You were seeing them before they were ready to really come over?
- [36:59]
C
Yes, I would see them before they were ready. Right. And they would always say, oh, yeah, we'd love to, you know, and that'd be, you know, I would. We'd either represent them and it was a disaster, or we would represent them and they would quickly realize, oh, my God, we don't have the resources to keep up with all this because America operates much differently than Europe. And so, you know, I did that for, golly, I don't know, I just thought that was my job, was to go to Europe and find all these, you know, and I mean, what a great job. But then nobody can deliver and nobody can give you any answers. Nobody answers the phone. So then it was much better waiting for them to get to the point where they would come to you. And so it wasn't a complete waste of time because they remembered you, you know, from when you went over there initially.
- [37:43]
A
Right.
- [37:43]
C
And they knew that you liked their line and you like them. So it's more about them getting it together. And A perfect example of that is Puerto Romana. Amazing company, you know, out of the uk yeah. And, you know, they're like, worldwide now, but back in the day when they were a little tiny company where I was like, this is fantastic. We just have to do business together. And to their credit, they were like, we. We're not ready. We're not ready. We're not ready. We're not ready. And then finally when they were ready, then they were like, okay, great. We love Jerry Perry. We know that you guys have been interested in it for a long time, and, you know, we're ready to make the move.
- [38:17]
A
And then it became a great big line.
- [38:18]
C
I mean. Yeah, yeah, that's a big line. We've had them for years. They're great people. But there's a lot of stories like that. I did take on one line as a. As a, like a business venture with a textile line out of the Netherlands. And, you know, I was all gung ho to get America going. And, you know, he had the collection and we created lines and we found representation and. But then about, you know, six months into it, I found out that that was his second job. His first job was raising equestrian ponies, you know, to. And selling them to wealthy Americans, because he had. He had been an Olympic rider for the Dutch team in the 1992 Olympics. And so he would train all these hunter jumpers to. To service the American market. And so I went to go visit him one time and he's like, oh, yeah, let me show you this other thing that I'm doing. And he has all these horses that are worth like 500,000, $700,000. Yeah. And meanwhile, I was like, oh, well, no wonder I can't reach you on the phone or get any squishes.
- [39:24]
A
Where's the fabric?
- [39:25]
C
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- [39:28]
A
Where are the fabric samples that we need to show your line in the showroom?
- [39:31]
C
Yeah.
- [39:32]
A
So he was a little distracted.
- [39:33]
C
He was distracted.
- [39:35]
A
But so. And eventually you had to part. You had to part ways.
- [39:37]
C
Yeah, just because, you know, it was like I was married to him, but he wasn't married to me.
- [39:41]
A
Yeah, it's hard. And as you say, I mean, once you take on a line, you do become very demanding. A multi line showroom just becomes very demanding. Just becomes. Because you have to show the line and have the wings and have the samples and have the road kits and everything else, and that's one of the big expenses. And whenever you talk to the fabric companies, they bemoan the costs of sampling. And this is with every multi Line showroom. They always feel, oh, we're lost in the vast array of all the different collections they have, or we're not as important as Rose Tarlow or whatever it is they say. And I wonder how you, how you manage that or how you think about that.
- [40:21]
C
Well, we try to think about each company standing on its own. And you know, especially when we're talking about that company or talking to representatives from that company, you know, they, they want to know what you're doing for their company. You know, they don't care that you have 50 brands or, you know, they want to know what you're doing for their company. So I think we, you have to take that mindset into the field as well so that when you're talking to designers that you're telling the story behind a Nobel lease or you're telling the story behind Laconia or whatever the line is, because all of these companies have stories. And I always tell the people that work for me that, you know, we have to represent all of these companies to the best of our ability. Right. You have to find something that is meaningful to you, that you can convey a sense of passion, a sense of purpose when you're talking to designers. And you know, for the most part, I, I think we do that. It is a, it is a juggling act. But, you know, we try to really zero in on each company's story to the best of our ability. It's a, you know, it is a juggle.
- [41:26]
A
It's a lot. And then the, the different lines want to come to town and they want to go out and see some of the big designers in the area. And I know they often all want to see the same big designers in the area. And you were just there last week with another line and I know that that's a challenge.
- [41:42]
C
Yeah. Now we're on to doing trunk shows or pop up shops and all of these markets, which is, yeah, it's really cool because, you know, there is a thriving design business in, you know, in all of our markets. Birmingham, Naples, Orlando, Winter Park, Nashville, Charleston. And these markets have grown and they're doing pretty well. They're not, they don't have the population to support a big design center, but they do have the population and the design clientele too. You know, require more of a presence than a, you know, a once or twice a year trip. You know, that's about what it took in the old, in the old days and, and now it requires more. So now we're doing the, you know, two or three times a year Visits in all these major markets and then in addition to that doing pop up shops where we'll take, you know, we won't take all of the lines, we'll just take like 10 lines or we'll take six, six lines. And we'll do it with some of our showrooms that we get along with. Well, we'll do it like we did with Holly Hunt, we did with Jim Thompson, we did with Samuel and Sons where they're competitive but they're also calling, they have the same clientele. It's, you know, it's the higher end clientele and what's interesting about it is that, you know, we're still casing into the, the A clients where we're going to visit their showrooms and visit their designers and doing shop jobs for them on their projects and you know, they're getting the ultimate care and treatment. But with the pop up shops you get a lot of designers that don't necessarily have a dedicated office space or, or they might be like further down the rung as far as the amount of volume that they do with you and they don't want you to come to their house because you know, they might work in you know, just a space that's not conducive for meetings or something like that. Or they've got children, they got dogs or they got the maids there or that, you know, whatever, you know, they. And so they like the pop up shop idea because they can come in anytime during the, on their schedule and see a bunch of product lines and get samples, you know, eat some nice food, socialize and we can just kind of, you know, keep it going from breakfast, lunch and dinner and have a little wine and charcuterie at the end of the day. And it's going pretty well.
- [44:00]
A
Well, it's so, it's so interesting to me, Dan, the a. The need to do that. I feel like everyone around the country who's in big showrooms and big buildings realizes the need to somehow get out there and create these pop up spaces and create. And I don't know if it's a different experience for people or as you were saying, it just offers a greater flexibility or it's someplace closer to them. But it seems as if we're not going back from this. This has now become part of the business, this expectation that we're just going to be doing these pop ups and serving champagne and charcuterie trays and, and, and all of this. I mean, is that your sense?
- [44:42]
C
Yeah, it's just the next step of the Industry evolving because, you know, it used to be just the road in the showroom. And then of course, when the Internet came along, well, that just blew everything up with the websites and the. And then it's Instagrams and then it's Pinterest and you know, and then mailers and postcards. And this is just another step, you know, in reaching the design community. It gets harder and harder because there are more things to keep up with and there's more support mechanisms that you have to, you know, support. But right now it's pop up shops and you know, down. Six months down the road, it's going to be AI, you know.
- [45:22]
A
Yeah. I don't get the sense, despite all the struggles of design centers, I don't get the sense that they're certainly not in Atlanta where that design center seems to be thriving. But I'm even thinking about the Dakota, for example, where you were for a time and then left. And I think nothing makes you want to go back to the Dakota. Or I mean, am I wrong? But I mean, I don't know how you think about the evolution of design centers in general.
- [45:50]
C
I don't know, because we were in Dakota for 25 years and it was very good while we were there. But you know, for us to do our job well, we need a lot of space because to show furniture, you need a lot of space. Because people want to come in and they want to see a lot of product, they want to see a lot of options. And to do that, you know, in these, you know, expensive design centers is really cost prohibitive because, you know, if you, if you have a fabric showroom, you don't need near as much space. So I think there is always going to be the need for the showroom. What I canoodle about all the time is how do we take Jerry pear and do an abbreviated Jerry pear in 25% of the space in a different location and be successful? You know, how, how can you take a, you know, well displayed business that takes up a fourth of the space that it does now? Because I think that, that, you know, that may be something that we would be looking at doing, you know, in some of these secondary markets. And maybe that means, you know, finding an inexpensive space where you just do the whole thing, you blow it out. Just a duplicate showroom.
- [47:00]
A
Right, right.
- [47:00]
C
Or does that mean going into a more expensive, you know, building where the real estate is going to be pricier, you know, a little more sophisticated environment and doing a much smaller space? We were hoping that the Internet would fix all that for us. But I don't think that the Internet completely takes the place of seeing things in person. What we find is, you know, the designers are using the Internet all the time. Just this past week, we were doing a trunk show in Birmingham, and so many people said, oh, we love JerryPear.com, we love JerryPear.com because we're. I think we're the only showroom in the country that has every product line that we represent online. It's where you can shop it and order memos and things like that if you're a registered client. So people love that aspect of the Internet. But then when they pull it all together and then they have their meetings with their designers, and the designers, I mean, their clients are like, okay, I like this, I like this, I like this. I like. Then they get it all nailed down, and then they plan the showroom visit so they can walk. Do a walk through and say, that's what we're talking about. That's what we're talking about. And, you know, where they get the physical experience of sitting in it, seeing how it sits, looking at the finishes, looking at big pieces of fabric that you can't really see the repeats on the Internet. So, you know, it's. It's working in that kind of environment, but they. They work together. It's not one or the other. And so I think that that's going to continue.
- [48:19]
A
All of which suggests that in some form, these design centers or these spaces continue to play a meaningful role. And everyone who thought that the Internet is going to take all of that away or that we're going to be in the metaverse and we're going to be doing all of this. It doesn't look like we're going to be in the metaverse specking these huge projects anytime soon.
- [48:42]
C
No, I think that it's definitely, you know, a combination of utilizing the tools that you have available to you. And what's interesting about calling on designers now is, you know, you can't just call them up and go visit them anymore. You know, you have to email them, and sometimes you. We get appointments through Instagram because we can't get through email, and then sometimes we send postcards, you know, so it's annoying because you have to. You have to use five different channels of communication now to reach people.
- [49:10]
A
Yeah, it's just tougher on a lot of levels. People. People are busier, and. And it's. And it's hard to get in touch with them. Dan, speaking of technology, should we. Should we talk about to the Trade tech and what you've been doing there. So let's, let's explain to people what that, what that is what you've been working on and made a sale. Sounds like we did.
- [49:30]
C
Yeah, we did. So well again it was the mother of invention. We had been using Studio Showroom which was evolved into Impact. It's just the back of house software that a lot of showrooms use throughout the country. And it was just aging out and the owners of program had no desire to ever do anything with it again. So Ainsworth Noah, my neighbor in Atlanta had the same problem that we had is that they were aging out of studio. So we decided to go in together and create a partnership to create this new software which is called to the Trade Tech. And it took us two years and a lot more money than we were hoping to develop the product. And we did it, we got it accomplished and Ainsworth Noah and Jerry Pear launched it. I don't even know. It was January maybe three years ago and it's been fantastic. It's a cloud based program that you can access from anywhere in the world. So our road reps use it. I can use it when I'm traveling. And so you know, because it costs so much money really we decided well maybe we should try to license this thing, you know because there are other people that need a backup house proprietary showroom program as well. We priced it very, very low and really built most of the pricing into a subscription model software as service.
- [50:53]
A
I like it. A SaaS model.
- [50:55]
C
Yep. And so I think John Brooks has launched with it already.
- [51:00]
A
Okay.
- [51:00]
C
But last I talked to him they said it was going perfectly smoothly. So it's good.
- [51:04]
A
Well that's exciting. And look at you bringing cloud computing to the multi line showroom business.
- [51:10]
C
I mean who would have thought, right?
- [51:12]
A
It's not the most tech forward industry and here you are. I mean that's a big step forward and it makes me in sort of wrapping all of this up. I wonder Dan, for all of the change that the world has experienced, I feel like there was a lot of fear that the big box retailers were going to come and chip away at the, to the trade business. RH buying Dennison Lean certainly comes to to mind and I don't know if you're thinking that's going to be a meaningful change. I don't know if you've seen any, any shift in all of that. But what's your, what's your sense?
- [51:49]
C
I don't know about big box but I think the Sophisticated retailers have definitely realize that the, to the trade business should not be ignored. And they all have programs of catering to the designers and offering discounts and things like that. And it seems to me like there's a lot of designers that, you know, compartmentalize their projects into, okay, this is the cherry pear floor, and then this is the, the level where I can't spend as much money on it, so I can need to source this differently. Right. And so it might be the kids room, might be the playroom, might be the second house. And so I think designers do, they do compartmentalize where they have the budget and where they need to save on the budget. And they use either, you know, different price showrooms or they use retailers that can provide product at a discount and it's readily available off the floor. It's just part of the formula now, how it works. Our area of expertise is insulated because, you know, the designers that shop at Jerry Pear or the clients that hire designers at shop at have probably already gone through one or two or three designers already. They've, they've kind of graduated to our level because they, you know, when you're young, you start and you're like, okay, let's do this. And then you, you might not like it. And you're like, okay, let's hire a different designer. Let's elevate the program. And then eventually they get to our level, which is good. That's where we want to be. We certainly like doing business with everybody, but Everybody can't afford $300 a yard linen. Everybody can't afford product like that. And there's, and there's always substitute product at lower prices. But we always try to be best in class. So whether it's, whether it's linen, whether it's leather, whether it's velvets, you know, whether it's furniture, it's always best in class in that category. And that's where Jerry Peer lives and thrives. And that's where we built our reputation on.
- [53:35]
A
And so it sounds like your feeling is, great, let them try and chip away at the, at the lower end of the, of the market. That's not really where you want to be.
- [53:45]
C
Well, over the years, we've tried occasionally to like, dip down into that moderate price market.
- [53:50]
A
Right.
- [53:50]
C
It didn't work well because people don't shop with us for that.
- [53:53]
A
Right.
- [53:54]
C
People don't come to us to buy 50 a yard fabric, you know, and so even though you would like to, you know, own a big chunk of that modern business, because you know, that's, that's where the bulk of the volume is. Right. It's more competitive. And people have spent, you know, decades building a reputation as, you know, as that's the place to go to shop for that product. And we haven't done that. So when you try to change, you know, I don't think that served us well. So we would rather be really, really good at what we do, you know, and leave that market to other people.
- [54:25]
A
Well, it's an interesting time. I mean, we, we didn't really get into tariffs because I didn't want to spend a lot of time on that. But do you feel as if the, the tariffs have, in terms of increased pricing and all of that, do you feel that like that's been having a meaningful impact? We're living in a time where affordability is suddenly the, the hot topic of conversation and everyone is waking up to just how expensive everything has become. Has that been a big impact in your, in your world or how are your clients, to your point, this, this higher end client, how are they processing it all?
- [55:01]
C
Yeah, I don't think affordability is in their vocabulary.
- [55:03]
A
Yes, that's not their concern.
- [55:05]
C
No, no, no. You know, the tariffs haven't really affected our business this year. The only, the only way that it's affected it is that there's a lot more paperwork to do with collecting tariffs and collecting the, you know, price and then explaining to the designers that the tariffs are on top of the price and this and that. So that's getting very, very old. So we're hoping that it just becomes normalized and built into everybody's prices so that we can eliminate tariffs and just give one price instead of two prices. But we're really catering to the, the very top end of the market. And I think a lot of their attitude about the economy is tied to the stock market. And the stock market has been crazy good for quite a while. So when the stock market starts to tumble, then people will get more focused on, on how much they're spending.
- [55:57]
A
Well, so I mean again, in wrapping up, it doesn't feel like a lot in the industry has really has really changed all that much. I mean, great for you bringing cloud computing to the back of house for the multi line showrooms. But do you see meaningful change on the horizon for the industry? Is the design center ownership the big thing that we should be looking at or what do you think is coming?
- [56:22]
C
You know, I don't see the design centers changing that much. I just hope they stay affordable because when they're Affordable, then all the showrooms thrive and the buildings are full. When, when they start really ratcheting up the rents, then you start to see fallout in the buildings. And when you have a building that is 30% vacant, you know, it's not a good look for our industry. Those people disappear. You know, it's much better to, to have a 100 occupancy and people that are thriving. You know, I think the Internet is going to continue to influence the way people shop. I think, especially with the younger designers, I think that they feel completely comfortable shopping on the Internet all the time. So it's going to be a battle for Internet presence and then supporting all of that with the back end, with sending out the samples and the customer service and all that sort of thing. And then like we said before, you know, creating some sort of presence in these markets that are wealthy and growing and are important to your market, but, you know, might not require a full fledged showroom opening. How do you service those accounts better? You know, is it, is it strictly through social engagements or is it by actually creating venues where people can shop? That kind of thing?
- [57:44]
A
Yeah, no, no, it makes sense. It's been great to talk to you and I, and I thank you so much for your time, Dan.
- [57:49]
C
Thank you, Dan. Dennis, always great to talk to you and I hope I see you soon.
- [57:56]
A
Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line@podcastusinessofhome.com if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.