Joanna Gaines went from a "no" person to a "why not?" person. It changed everything

Summary

Business of Home Podcast: Joanna Gaines Transitioning from "No" to "Why Not?"

Episode Overview In the April 28, 2025 episode of the Business of Home Podcast, host Dennis Scully engages in an in-depth conversation with Joanna Gaines, a luminary in the interior design and entrepreneurial community. The discussion delves into Joanna's transformative journey from being hesitant to embracing a "why not?" mentality, exploring how this shift has revolutionized her personal and professional life. Key topics include decision-making grounded in intuition and faith, a strategic sabbatical to regain vision, balancing family and business, and the evolution of her Magnolia empire.

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1. Personal and Professional Background

Joanna Gaines' Multifaceted Career Joanna Gaines, alongside her husband Chip Gaines, established Magnolia Market in the early 2000s. Initially a home goods shop, Magnolia gained widespread recognition through their television presence a decade later. Since then, Joanna has expanded her portfolio to include product lines, a TV network, a retail and hospitality complex in Waco, Texas, and various entrepreneurial ventures.

Notable Quote:

"[...] I'm very intentional about instinct and like, what I'm feeling. [...]" — Joanna Gaines [09:41]

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2. Taking a Sabbatical: From Overextension to Visionary Clarity

The Necessity of a Break Facing overcommitment and a lack of clear vision, Joanna and Chip decided to take a two to three-month sabbatical. This intentional pause allowed them to step away from daily operations, focus on family, and reassess their long-term goals.

Discussion Highlights:

• Timing and Motivation: The sabbatical was timed during a pivotal life phase as Joanna prepared her children for college.
• Team Trust: Entrusting the Magnolia team with operations was crucial for Joanna and Chip to disconnect and rejuvenate.

Notable Quote:

"I think Chip's kind of mandate. We have to set time outside of our daily, you know, schedule to really dream about this." — Joanna Gaines [05:21]

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3. Embracing "Why Not?": Shifting from "No" to "Why Not?"

Influence of Chip Gaines Joanna credits Chip for encouraging her to embrace risks and adopt a more open-minded approach to opportunities. This shift from saying "no" to "why not?" has been instrumental in the expansive growth of their business empire.

Key Points:

• Initial Hesitance: Joanna's early career was marked by careful planning and minimal risk-taking.
• Chip's Influence: Chip's adventurous spirit inspired Joanna to pursue her multiple entrepreneurial dreams despite inherent risks.
• Empowerment through Failure: Chip's perspective on failure as a learning experience empowered Joanna to take bold steps without fear.

Notable Quote:

"Chip encouraged me to go for it, even though I said, why would we expand? [...] He set it up like he's handing me this on a silver platter." — Joanna Gaines [08:45]

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4. Defining Magnolia's Core Purpose: Creating Meaningful Spaces

Articulating the Vision During their sabbatical, Joanna and Chip crystallized Magnolia's mission: "to make space for meaningful moments in life and home." This definitive purpose acts as a filter for future decisions, ensuring all ventures align with their overarching goal.

Discussion Highlights:

• Clarity of Purpose: Establishing a clear mission alleviated the exhaustion of unaligned growth and provided direction.
• Team Communication: Clearly communicating this mission to their team reinforced the intention behind every project.
• Sustainable Growth: Focused expansion based on meaningful alignment rather than mere business scaling.

Notable Quote:

"Our purpose, our vision is that we want to make space for meaningful moments in life and home." — Joanna Gaines [25:26]

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5. Navigating Fame and Maintaining Groundedness

Balancing Public Presence and Personal Life As Magnolia's fame grew, Joanna grappled with maintaining her identity as a homebody and shopkeeper. While the public presence brought recognition, it also distanced her from the hands-on interactions she cherished.

Key Points:

• Emotional Steadiness: Joanna maintains emotional balance through faith and a strong sense of purpose.
• Desire for Direct Interaction: Despite the challenges of fame, Joanna longs for the direct engagement with customers that founded Magnolia.
• Maintaining Connection: Through shows, magazines, and books, Joanna stays connected with her audience without compromising her grounded nature.

Notable Quote:

"The thing that aches in my soul [...] is that we miss the day in, day out, hands-on thing." — Joanna Gaines [43:58]

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6. Future Endeavors: New Shows and Expanding Horizons

Upcoming Projects Joanna is excited about launching a new series, Mini Rinny, which focuses on smaller-scale renovations. This project aims to inspire viewers to undertake manageable projects that make a tangible impact without the need for extensive budgets or time commitments.

Future Expansion Plans:

• Retail and Food Ventures: Exploring the possibility of replicating Magnolia's successful ventures in new locations.
• Intelligent Scaling: Ensuring that any expansion aligns with Magnolia's mission and maintains the quality and intentionality that defines the brand.

Notable Quote:

"Mini Rinny is like always that middle thing I do and then I'll take on another big fixer after it." — Joanna Gaines [45:31]

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7. The Weight of Dreams and Responsible Entrepreneurship

Balancing Ambition with Responsibility Joanna discusses the inherent responsibilities that come with entrepreneurial success. Every "yes" carries weight, and with Magnolia's vast reach, each decision influences not just the business but the lives of employees and the community.

Key Insights:

• Intentional Dreaming: Dreams must be grounded in knowledge and preparation to navigate the complexities of business.
• Resilience Through Challenges: Past hardships, including financial struggles, have fortified Magnolia's foundation and prepared them for ongoing success.
• Legacy and Impact: Joanna emphasizes building a lasting legacy that fosters community, comfort, and meaningful experiences.

Notable Quote:

"If you build it with great intention, they will come. [...] That is truly what life is about, is saying yes and trusting." — Joanna Gaines [38:55]

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8. Concluding Reflections: Embracing Storytelling and Future Clarity

Joanna Gaines as a Storyteller Joanna encapsulates her multifaceted role by identifying herself primarily as a storyteller. Whether through design, food, or hospitality, her narratives aim to create spaces where meaningful memories are made.

Final Thoughts:

• Unified Branding: All Magnolia ventures, despite their diversity, are interconnected through the shared mission of fostering meaningful moments.
• Continued Evolution: Joanna remains open to new opportunities that align with Magnolia's vision, demonstrating a balanced approach to growth and sustainability.

Notable Quote:

"Maybe I can just say I'm a storyteller. I had to go through that whole journey [...]" — Joanna Gaines [49:33]

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Conclusion Joanna Gaines' transformation from a "no" person to a "why not?" individual underscores the importance of embracing risk, trusting one's instincts, and maintaining a clear vision. This pivotal shift has not only propelled Magnolia to new heights but also equipped Joanna and Chip to navigate the complexities of fame, business expansion, and personal fulfillment with grace and intentionality. Their story serves as a testament to the power of purposeful growth and the enduring impact of creating spaces that foster meaningful human connections.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

1. Joanna Gaines [09:41]:

   "I'm very intentional about instinct and like, what I'm feeling."

2. Joanna Gaines [05:21]:

   "I think Chip's kind of mandate. We have to set time outside of our daily, you know, schedule to really dream about this."

3. Joanna Gaines [08:45]:

   "Chip encouraged me to go for it, even though I said, why would we expand? [...] He set it up like he's handing me this on a silver platter."

4. Joanna Gaines [25:26]:

   "Our purpose, our vision is that we want to make space for meaningful moments in life and home."

5. Joanna Gaines [43:58]:

   "The thing that aches in my soul [...] is that we miss the day in, day out, hands-on thing."

6. Joanna Gaines [45:31]:

   "Mini Rinny is like always that middle thing I do and then I'll take on another big fixer after it."

7. Joanna Gaines [38:55]:

   "If you build it with great intention, they will come. [...] That is truly what life is about, is saying yes and trusting."

8. Joanna Gaines [49:33]:

   "Maybe I can just say I'm a storyteller. I had to go through that whole journey [...]"

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About the Podcast Hosted by Dennis Scully, the Business of Home Podcast features conversations with leaders and innovators in the home industry, exploring the evolving challenges and opportunities within the interior design community.

Transcript

[Dennis Scully]

This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is Joanna Gaines. It's difficult to summarize Joanna's job description in one word. Together with her husband, Chip Gaines, she opened a home goods shop, Magnolia Market, in the early 2000s. But it wasn't until the Gaines ended up on TV a decade later that Joanna became a star. Since then, she's built an empire ranging from product lines to a TV network to a retail and hospitality compound in Waco, Texas. Along the way, she's been everything from designer to baker to shopkeeper to entrepreneur. I spoke with Joanna about relying on intuition and faith to make business decisions, why she's returning to TV with a new show, and how going from a no person to a why not person changed everything. This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta. Welcome Spring with a dazzling array of new custom sized rugs at Ernesta. Explore the expert craftsmanship of Ernesta's soft fade resistant outdoor styles and discover design forward options where function truly meets beauty. All custom sized and delivered in as little as two weeks. And when you join Ernesta's exclusive trade program, their team of dedicated consultants will manage everything from ordering samples to generating quotes, connecting all the dots to support and streamline your business. Apply for membership [e-mail] BOH this podcast is also sponsored by Harpin Forbes, a family owned company that for nearly three decades has delighted the design community with its versatile collections of hand woven natural window coverings. Committed to sustainability, Harpin and Forbes utilizes natural fibers meticulously hand weaving each piece to the exact dimensions of your windows for a perfect fit. Beyond window coverings, they also design an exquisite range of statement wall coverings and Belgian linens. Planning a visit to High Point for Spring Market? Be sure to experience the Latest Spring Summer 2025 creations from Hartman and Forbes at the Wesley hall showroom, including a new collaboration with renowned designer Barbara berry. Or visit hartmanforbes.com to find a luxury showroom near you. And now on with the show.

[Chip Gaines]

So I was thinking about the last time that you and I were together at High Point Market.

[Joanna Gaines]

Yep.

[Chip Gaines]

And I feel as though you were feeling very thoughtful at the time. You had a lot that it sounded like you were turning over in your head. Yes.

[Joanna Gaines]

Dennis, was that. That was last year? Was that April? May. Right. That was before the summer, right?

[Chip Gaines]

That's right. You were. You had on your mind both the business and your daughter's prom night you were doing your daughter's hair.

[Joanna Gaines]

Yes. I had to get back for Ella's prom night. Yes, yes. But I remember because I think when we connected last year, you had asked, okay, well, what's. What's next? And I said, dennis, I have no idea. But I do know. Ask me when I get on the other side of summer. I think we, for the first time in what, 20 plus years, I decided to take this kind of sabbatical or this two to three month stint off to where I could just get outside the business, really. Just get time to think bigger picture, more vision. And so we just kind of said, we told the entire team, I'm going to be gone. Chip and I will be gone this whole summer to just hunker down with the kids to get vision for things. And so I think I felt good that it was actually happening. So when I saw you, I was like, I'll let you know what comes of that. So here we are now, what, a year later?

[Chip Gaines]

Yes, exactly.

[Joanna Gaines]

But I know I was excited because I feel like for me and Chip, it was this intentional time. We were setting to just, like, regain our footing, make sure our foundation is set so that we can dream about all that's to come. I just loved Chip's kind of mandate. We have to set time outside of our daily, you know, schedule to really dream about this. And in all honesty, you know, I'm in a phase of life where the next four years, I will see all of my oldest children go from high school to college. And so, you know, so much has happened in the last 10 plus years that I, as a mother, I'm like, that summer, those summer months for me, as I'm prepping the kids for college, as we're moving out, as we're setting up, like, I need that time emotionally. I want to be with them. So that's kind of gonna be the new rhythm for us until they're all in, you know, and then I'll have this nice long break of that, because crew, my youngest is six, but that's definitely the new season of life we're in.

[Chip Gaines]

One of the things that you said to me the last time we were together, tied to this conversation that we're having now is you talked about in your early years, the dream of being a newscaster. You thought to yourself, I'm very strategic. I'm thinking about where I'm gonna go. And you described yourself as a bit of a no person. You were nerv. Saying yes to a lot of things, and you weren't A big risk taker. Then along comes chip in your life, Mr. Risk Taker, Mr. Let's jump right in. Let's get that houseboat randomly. And a lot of other things that came along the way. And then suddenly, recently, it sounds like finding yourself saying, okay, what are we really doing here? What are all these things we're saying yes to? And how are we thinking about growing this business in a way that feels genuine to what's really important to you and to the mission and manifesto that you've always laid out for yourself and for the team.

[Joanna Gaines]

So where do I start, Dennis? Do you. I can go way back to the beginning. You tell me where you want me to jump in, and I can kind of start from there.

[Dennis Scully]

And then, Well, I want to briefly.

[Chip Gaines]

You know, I was thinking about this conversation, Joanna, and I feel like everybody feels like they know you. If they know anything about you, they feel a close connection to you. They think they know your story or who you are, what you really are about. But I do want to tell people.

[Dennis Scully]

Who might be less familiar.

[Chip Gaines]

Right. Because it is this remarkable journey, and it is this incredible success, a very different success. I was looking at that picture of you outside of the CBS television network, taken last year, I think. Right. And you were thinking back to you. You had interned at CBS back when Dan Rather was working on a show, if I recall. And so, I mean, there was a time where there was a different path.

[Joanna Gaines]

Yeah. And, you know, I, I grew up, I was a middle daughter, so three girls. I was the middle. So I feel like I was always the peacemaker. I, I, you know, my, my father had always joked, oh, I never got a son, you know, and he loved his street girls. I mean, he's a daddy. Like, we are all daddy's girls. But he always joked, I'm in the wrong business with three daughters. I'm in the tire business. And so somewhere early on in my little mind, you know, for me, my father was my hero. So I was like, ooh, I want to please him. I want to make him happy. I'll be the one that raises my hand and says, dad, you build that business, and I'll be the one to take over it. So I work for my father at his tire shop, which is Tire and Automotive. It was Firestone for 10 years. I was his bookkeeper. And in that process, I also had this, like, dream to be, like, on the news. I, I loved this idea of just broadcast journalism. I went to school for it at Baylor. And then in all of that, I was doing commercials. For my father. So I saw how all this was working. I was like, I'm gonna have business over here. I'm gonna own a tire shop one day, and then I'm gonna also get to do commercials and media and advertising. So I always kind of had both of these dreams because for me, like you said, I was not a risk taker, but I was a planner. So as long as I had everything planned out and I could process it and be prepared for it, I was gonna be okay. And so my senior year, I landed an internship in New York City. And you're talking about, like, I was a major homebody. I never wanted to leave my parents. I was just, you know, I was that daughter, so close to my parents. But my parents really encouraged me. You need to go do this internship. I go to New York City. And what happened? Now? I had studied for four years broadcast journalism. I had this amazing internship at 48 hours of CBS. And I realized as I was doing the job, I don't think I actually want to do this as I was doing my internship. But it was like on day two, Dennis. So I was like, how am I going to tell my parents that the education that they helped pay for is now I don't want to do it anymore?

[Chip Gaines]

Well, and what hit you right away that you didn't want to do it? What was it immediately you responded to?

[Joanna Gaines]

You know, for me, I'm. I'm very intentional about instinct and like, what I'm feeling. And like, kind of. I've always thought about it. For me, this thing I have just with like, like my soul, like, is my soul being quenched by this, or does it feel like it's dying a little bit? And I. And there's no thing about news. It was just the way that I couldn't carry that stuff. Like, I wasn't built to carry the heaviness that a lot of those stories had. And for me, you know, as a 18, 19 year old girl, it hit me pretty hard. And I didn't know that that was a side of it which I should have known. It's news, like, what was I expecting? I also just missed home so much. I was homesick. But the beauty of life is that sometimes the things that get you to one point may not be actually what you need to carry with you in the future, but because you're there, you may find something you would have never found because you didn't take that step. So now I'm in New York, I'm missing home. What do I do on the Weekends, I find these local boutiques, and I go into these shops, and it makes me feel at home. I feel that they're playing the music, they're lighting the candle. The displays are so intentionally set. And I just wanted. It was in the winter. I just wanted to stay in there until they kicked me out because I felt this sense of home. I felt known for a second in the biggest city. And as lost as I felt from a career and a degree, something about being in those places made me feel at home. And so that was the dream that started in New York City. In my heart, when I got back, I kind of wrote this thing down. One day. I want to have a shop that makes people feel at home. Because when I needed that feeling and I stepped in, it really. It did something to me. And so that's when the dream of Magnolia started. Even though I couldn't articulate it back in 2000, that's what was happening was I was laying one thing down but picking up another thing. But, Dennis, like you said, I hated risk. So to me, to own a business, to. To go outside of my father's business was too risky. So that was a quiet dream. I wrote it down, and I told no one about it. So for three years, I was planning on. Okay, my dad's going to retire. At this point. I'm going to then take over, and I'm going to be a woman who owns a tire shop. So all of those men. I know all about tires, you know, so that's really what was happening. But behind the scenes, there was this little girl that had another dream but was too scared to voice it because I didn't know what to do with it. Well, then, of course, along comes Chip. And when we were almost engaged, I think we were engaged, I. I sh. Told him about this notebook I had where I wrote down all my dreams. And when he saw him, he couldn't believe I had three. I said, one day I want to own a bakery. One day I want to own a little boutique, and one day I want to own a spa. And I had the business plan. I had what I was going to, you know, everything from, like, what I wanted to carry and how, like, just the intention behind every business. Chip was kind of blown away and dumbfounded and, like, I don't get why you wouldn't do one of these three. And I said, well, Chip, because I have to take over my dad's tire shop, you know? So it was in that moment that he encouraged me to go for it, even though I said, chip, what my dad is handing me is kind of there's risk to it, but he set it up. Well. This is like he's handing me this on a silver platter. And I said, these other things could fail. He goes, well, Joe, if they fail, you learn a lot, and then on the next one, you won't fail. So he kind. He. For me, he took that veil away of fear and almost gave me this sense of, like, empowerment, like, well, if you fail, who cares? We'll do better on the next one. And I never looked at it like that. I always looked at it as, if you fail, you have no other chances. You're done. Where with that freedom, it actually, like, opened my eyes. I had the conversation with my dad. He was so gracious and, of course, encouraged me to do that. So when Chip and I got married in 2003, we bought a little building, renovated it, and opened up Magnolia. And that was my first little dream come true. So I got this master's degree by working with my father in business. And so that's what I just love. And then fast forward to, what was it, 2019, when we launched Magnolia Network. Again, all the stuff I learned in broadcast journalism, I could apply to building a network and storytelling. And so I feel very grateful for that journey. Even though there was a lot of pivots and it didn't feel like in the moment I was actually going forward. I felt like I was going backwards, but that's not actually what happens in real life. And so I've now changed that life of being a no person to a why not? And I give that to Chip because that's the way he lives. As Chip would say, he's created a little monster, because now I'm just like, let's say yes to this and that, Joe. I think we've got enough.

[Chip Gaines]

Well, and it's so funny to me that you still describe yourself, even your Instagram profile, you describe yourself as a homebody and a shopkeeper at heart. You're like, I'd rather be home, or I'd rather be in the shop, making people feel welcome.

[Joanna Gaines]

It's the core of who I am, is I love to be comfortable. I want to be comfortable, and I love other people to feel comfortable. And so. And. And I always nod back to those shopkeeper days when it was just me in that shop. In order to pay all the bills, I had to make $250 a day, you know? And so those days, I just feel like, are what grounded me the most. But also with dreams, it's One thing to dream about something, but it's also then the difference now that I see, as I try to encourage other people, go for your dream. There's also the knowledge that comes with what goes with that dream. So it's not just I'm dreaming about opening a coffee shop one day. You have to have the knowledge of like the business side of it too, so. Or if you don't, then hiring someone who's really well versed in that so that you can be the creator and the dreamer. Some people are born with both of those talents where they're operational and their visionary and dreamer. So I think for me it's now, as I say, I say it in a very cautious way, but optimistically, which is if you have a dream that you want to live out, make sure you know the full scope of the dream so that you're prepared for what's to come. Which I was never prepared for any of this. Speaking of, I'm saying that and I'm like, well, I didn't know any of this was going to happen with that one. Yes. Foreign.

[Dennis Scully]

We're taking a quick break to remind you about Hartman and Forbes. This spring, Hartman and Forbes unveiled a new collaboration with internationally renowned designer Barbara Berry, celebrating the artistry of light texture and the timeless beauty of nature in a collection of hand woven window coverings and natural wall coverings. If you're attending High Point Spring Market, experience this collection in person along with their latest spring summer 2025 designs at the Wesley hall showroom. To discover other unique collaborations by Hartman and Forbes and register for your Trade account, visit hartmanforbes.com and now back to the show.

[Chip Gaines]

So you ended up doing a show yourself and that became wildly popular. And whether you accidentally or not got associated with these specific design aesthetics, right? That people connect with you and all the people that think that you created modern farmhouse or you created this whole look and style. And I know that you probably feel like you've very much moved on from so much of what people still associate with your early days and how they see that, but I wonder now, all these years later, how do you think about that?

[Joanna Gaines]

You know, I think it's fascinating because I think, you know, when you don't have language for like, for people who are a bit removed from like design and that world and that language. When I look back, I think what resonated with people beyond the modern farmhouse trend was this idea of just casual comfort, down to earth living that felt just comfortable and felt also timeless. I mean, you know, when you think about Shiplap, which was one of the buzzwords during our time on Fixer. You know, we're talking about, you know, here we are in Waco, Texas, These houses that we were working on that are late 1800s, early 1900s in Texas. Part of the construction was Shiplap was behind the drywall. So when we discovered that it was in that moment of time where we were shooting Fixer, and what then happened is because all of our clients were real clients that. That were actually waiting for a renovation that our construction company would then tackle, they would all say, I want Chiplap. And so, you know, at the end of the day, as much as I wanted to impose what I want to do on their house, I was working for the client. And then we were highlighting that on Fixer Upper. So, yeah, I think I did get known for that modern farmhouse. I still live in that same farmhouse. It still has Shiplap, you know, so it's true to, like, the story of our home and our family, like, where we live. So there's nothing about it that I, like, don't love. It's like, again, it's in my house. It's more when you get maybe pinned to one specific style. But again, the way I look at it is people didn't know how to articulate what it was that was resonating with them. So it just came in the form of it's modern farmhouse, which is a specific style. I love the farmhouse style. I'm living it like it's my home. Right. But I also love for other people, it's truly like, what's your actual story, though, you're wanting to tell? And if you love the ship and you love those down to earth elements, how can we tie that into your story, but also stay true to the style of your home so that what we end up making in the end is truly magical for you and your family? And that's the challenge I love.

[Chip Gaines]

And I want to talk to you about where being a designer falls into all the other many job descriptions that you have with being a shopkeeper and having a network and all of these other things. All of which, again, as we were saying earlier, came as the result of saying yes to all of these opportunities that. Right. That presented themselves. And now it sounded like this need to step back that you and Chip wanted to do and to take a little break from, in part to spend time with family, but also to perhaps get a little bit from a distance, a better look at what all of this is. And you were talking to me Last time we were together about this notion of growth for growth's sake. And you didn't want to just say yes to things because you wanted to understand where does this fit in what you so often describe as this making space for meaningful moments in life and home, which is such a key part of how you come at the world.

[Joanna Gaines]

So one thing I want to say is, like, from the very beginning, what I was super thankful for with just owning Magnolia, when it's a small little retail store, that experience we did not make hardly any. I mean, it was kind of a break even deal, honestly. But what that experience taught me was to really hone in on my instincts. I always second guess myself before because the second guessing was, shoot, I didn't go to school for this. And so what the years in that little shop did to me was really help me go with my gut instinct and go more on feeling than maybe fact when it comes to design. And then as I moved into taking that retail experience, because when the guests would come into my store, they would say, can you do this in my home? Well, then I'd go in their home. And Dennis, for the first couple years, I would be like freaking out as the lady was like, what would you do? As the woman would say, what would you do here? I would honestly go, I have no idea in my brain. But I'd be like, come on, Joe. And it was like this practice of having a thought, having an instinct, and just being confident. And so what that taught me prepared me for then Fixer Upper, which then, now you're doing this on a national level and everyone's watching you. So now instead of me going, what is the person in Kansas who was watching Fixer, are they going to think, I don't know what I, you know, Instead I knew, Joe, you have to get all that out of your mind. What does the client want and what is your instinct saying? So that helped me practice that muscle of honing in that instinct. And then as that moved to, like you said, with food, our restaurants, our bakery, everything I do now starts from a design approach. Like, I'm thinking about it from a design lens. So when I'm biting into that cupcake, it's missing something. It's missing that layer of crunch because of what I know in design. And so like you said, Dennis, when I saw you, we were really at a point where I think, now we're going on. That's 21 years of doing Magnolia. We've never taken a break. It really physically hit us, I would say, last year where we were physically lacking vision for what was next. We felt like when people would ask us, even our team, hey, y'all, we need to work towards what's next. We'd almost be like, what do you mean? What about all this?

[Chip Gaines]

What else do you need?

[Joanna Gaines]

There's a lot. But to our teams, like, you know, for them, it's like, when you're working, there's got. What are we working towards? Even if it was, this is all we're doing. Let's make this a hundred percent as excellent as possible. That would be enough for them. But I think for us, we didn't even know. And that was that pivotal moment that Chip said. We're pausing, Joe, because as the CEOs, as the founders of this business, we have got to lead on what's next. And I think I was just. I was proud of Chip for kind of mandating that. And so our kind of break started June 1st. We had three months to where we were just as much as we could get out of our minds as far as the operations and all the things that we were so involved in with our business. As that started to kind of work out of our system and as we trusted our team, they had it, we could start to breathe again and see again. One of my favorite moments that was so pivotal for me as a mother, but also as a business owner, was my daughter. My oldest daughter was in on a lot of these conversations before our break in June that I was having with the team. She wanted to intern. Basically, she was interning with me, so she'd be in these meetings where I was like, y'all, I need vision. Like, we need to get back to why we're doing what we're doing. And so she was listening, and she was interested. And Ella and I had a. Like, I called it a lock in, like, here at. At our office. And I kind of told her, and I also told God, honestly, because God has always been. For me, when I say instincts, it's also like, hey, God, what do you got here? Like, I. It's always been a pivotal part of my journey. And I remember praying, and I said, God, I'm not leaving this office until I know why we're doing this and what we need to do. So all the. Long story short, Ella and I are spending the night here and had two whiteboards. She was writing down things. As I was saying, okay, if we do this, if we do that. And the reason to tie back to what you were saying is as we were dreaming about what's next, I Kept telling the team, I don't want to grow for growth's sake. I get that's what most businesses do is they. They keep growing, they scale. That's the business, right? That's the dream.

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah.

[Joanna Gaines]

But I'm not going to grow for growth's sake. I'm not going to grow just because that's what's expected. And Chip is for sure. I mean, we both are very intentional about our next steps. All that to say as we were dreaming. I just felt like it got very clear. I got language. I was like, why are we doing all of this? It's busy. We have a lot of amazing employees. We have a lot of different arms. And Magnolia, it just isn't retail, and it's not just a show. There's so many things that. There's so many tentacles to this business that I felt tired. And I wasn't tired because the amount that we have, I was tired because when you just move and you do the work and you don't have vision, it's exhausting. But once you have vision and you know where you're going and there's a point to all of it, it's not exhausting anymore. And I felt like in that moment, just the clarity came. Magnolia's point. Our purpose, our vision is that we want to make space for meaningful moments in life and home. And when that phrase got articulated and we wrote that down, that was it for me. And if that's a yes, then I felt like, okay, this is why we're doing what we're doing. And then to be able to articulate that to our team and to everyone who works here to give a point to all of the stuff that we've said yes to. I think for me, Dennis, that was that pivotal moment of moving forward. That's kind of the. The filter that I'll run everything through. If I say yes to it, it's because not only am I passionate about it and instinctively feel right about it, it's because it also points back to this will make space. So I think in that moment, it helped me as a mother, as a wife, but also as a business owner. And I could kind of see clear. And so I think all the weight fell off. And then I started getting excited again about what we've built and what we're building towards, just with that one statement, which is just so simple but profound for me, that it all of a sudden, like, lifted the veil of, I'm not just doing busy work here. We're creating something that's really Meaningful, hopefully, for us and our family and our employees, but also for our guests and anyone who interacts with our business. So those three months, I think, put language to why we're doing what we're doing. So then as we dream about expanding in the future, which, again, I don't have specifics for, but now I'm open to it. Where a year ago, I was digging my heels in the ground saying, why would we expand? Like, why where? Now I'm like, if we could create some of this in another place, that would be an honor. That would, like, if we could take the best of what we've made here in Waco, whether that be a part of the silos, a part of the bakery, a part of our restaurant, and we could do that in other places, that would be an honor. So I think even that just opened it up for me. Those three months away helped me see it in a way where it didn't feel almost like business can, especially when you're a founder. Codependent. We had this codependent relationship with Magnolia that kind of fell off. It was like, magnolia is fine. Magnolia is going to make it. And I don't have to be involved in every single detail. Like, so that falling off created some, like, breath and fresh, like, vision to look forward. But what I love about it is just that time away gave us clarity for what's next.

[Chip Gaines]

Well, and it's. It sounds from all of that, interestingly enough, that it didn't leave you feeling a greater clarity around what you wanted to say yes to in that moment or no to.

[Joanna Gaines]

Exactly.

[Chip Gaines]

Right. It wasn't that. It was an openness to saying yes. It gave you a greater clarity, as you just described, about what you were really holding and what you had built. And I want to understand that better because so often, intentionally or accidentally, these great companies or these great brands are formed. And certainly Magnolia became this brand that stood for a lot of things in people's minds. And suddenly, to your point, it was a hospitality business and a retail, and it's a bakery, but it's also a television network. And it. And it has. Right. All of these different components, but there is a really important through line in all of it. Right. And it sounds as if you gained even greater clarity. Right. About what that through line is.

[Joanna Gaines]

It connected all the dots to what we said yes to and almost gave us this. Like, you went with your instincts on every. Yes. Along the last 10 years. And when you go with your instincts. Yeah, there's could be a few things you're like, Well, I could have not done that one. But for the most part, what we saw in the rear view mirror was that our instincts, they proved that they worked like that through line of. Did this entity, did this business idea make space for meaningful moments in someone's life or home? And we can say yes, it was like we were, we were doing it. We didn't have that clarity then in a sentence form, but it did like, it did make us believe that we weren't building just to build. We were building with intention. We were building with this hope of creating home, this sense of home and a sense of comfort and community and togetherness and all of that wrapped around our business is really who we are. We care about people, we care about community. We want people to love the home they're in and have these beautiful moments. It brought clarity to why we're doing what we do. And that's what we were needing. Dennis Where I thought we were going into that three months and we're going to come away and we're going to have a business plan for the next 10 years that actually didn't happen. And that's actually not how we work. Honestly, that felt too. We like to let life show us and surprise us a bit. To have a plan for it I get is like smart, but it's not how we've ever done it. We needed this just clarity of mind on why we're doing what we're doing. And the second we got motivated us for, you know, all that's to come. And the fact that my daughter got to be a part of that feels really special because we've always wanted to bring our kids into our journey and our dream because they're the biggest part of it for us. And so for my daughter to see me wrestling through the whys, if she ever opens up her own business one day, hopefully she can remember those moments. You don't just open a business. To open a business to get money like that, that's boring. If you have a dream, what's the intention? What's the hope? And so for her to really work out that with me, I think hopefully one day she'll be able to take that and apply it to her own life and the dreams that she has. As.

[Dennis Scully]

We'Re taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Ernesta, immerse your clients in elevated design with Ernesta's curated collection of custom sized rugs. Explore a vast variety of options that work for your creative vision through complementary unlimited samples. Gain access to exclusive trade discounts. And received personalized project support through Ernesta's dedicated team of consultants. To apply for membership to Ernesta's trade program or learn more, visit ernesta.com boh and now back to the show.

[Chip Gaines]

Well, so with that greater clarity, help me understand the kinds of things that feel natural to say yes to. And in that, it sounds like you have some pretty clear memories of some things that you said yes to that you. Well, looking back, I wish we hadn't done that because everybody does that, right? If you're saying yes to a whole host of things, some things aren't going to go as smoothly as you would like. Or to what you were just saying don't feel like they really fit cohesively with within that clearly defined brand. So, I mean, talk to me about that. What you say yes to, what you say no to, is there something that springs to mind that you wish you hadn't said yes to that also taught you, as you said earlier?

[Joanna Gaines]

Yeah, you know, I can't. It's funny I said that, but I can't think of a specific. Like, there's nothing in my mind that's like that. One thing we did, you know, because I will say when we did say no was it was our fifth season of Fixer and we started feeling like, again, we needed this break. We were building this business. We were also doing this show. And they became incompatible with each other because the amount of production and time on camera. But also we were the founders and the CEOs, so we had to be. So we were working so many hours a week and realizing, okay, one of these things has to go. So, you know, for us, it was that timely shift of we have to put this thing down. And the thing I love about that so much is every person advised us against that. They said if you put the show down, then everything that you're building over here on your business that you're saying you need to attend to will dry up. No one's going to come to the silos anymore. No one. And we looked at each other and we said, we're worth taking. It's worth taking that risk because we can't do both. And our passion has always been our business. What we started in 2003, that's kind of who we are. We're business people more than we're, you know, talent on a show like that. And again, there was. There's no. It's just that wasn't. Our end game was to be talent. Our end game was we want to continue building this business that we started in oh, three. And so there was just this beautiful freedom of we're going to walk away from something that brought us a lot of the success. But we. Because we just felt instinctively like we had to. And now when I look back, I'm, like, so thankful for that moment. We said no to a show, but then we gained, a few years later, a network. Like, that's life. That's what I love about life and faith is that in the moment when you pick the riskier, the thing that doesn't make as much sense and you go with that in faith, what comes back in return is so much bigger than the thing you said no to. I'm like, that's really what life is about, is saying yes and trusting. And really saying that when you trust what you're given so many times is above and beyond what you could have ever dreamed of. And now, you know, I went to the Silos last week, and I just, again, I'm dumbfounded at the amount of people who travel here. The fact that they make time in their busy lives to come experience what we've built here is truly the greatest honor. And so people are still coming, Dennis. So that, you know, that it feels. It just feels special that, you know, it's kind of one of those things. If you build it with great intention, they will come. So I don't think it's like, if you build it, they will come. If you build it with great intention, they will come, and that will sustain it, because whether we're on a show or not, it's. I hope people want to experience. It's truly, to me, that story of, you know, you say yes to a dream and watch what all unfolds. And my hope for every single person that experiences Magnolia when they come to the silos is that they leave with this renewed sense of, I have a dream, and I want to go for it. If there is a dream, a quiet dream you've had in your heart. I think for me, it's. It's. I never want to tell someone when to do it, because for some people, I. It could be that dream in your heart will come to fruition in 20 years. It's. I think these days, everyone wants that. Like, quick, I'm going to do a dream, and then I. If it doesn't happen in a year or two, then I failed, you know? And what I've learned is, like, there's a weight to any dream that comes to life. Like, because it's responsibility, it's building something. It's creating Something. And so there's so much of that now that I get. It's not just, oh, go do your dream. It's not like that. It's really not. It is when the time is right and the instinct that you have aligns and your intention, like, when all of that aligns, then it's go time, and then that's your moment where you can say yes or no to it. And what I've always found with every yes, even if it's failed, is as long as I'm moving forward, I'm always going to learn. I'm always going to have a story to tell that will help me for the next story that I want to tell. So that's even when I'm. When I'm talking about on the Fridays in 2008 and 2009, when Chip and I were like, is this. Do we need to, you know, declare bankruptcy? In all seriousness.

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah.

[Joanna Gaines]

When I go back to those days, I still would have said yes in those moments to the business we were doing. So that I know what I know now. And we never went bankrupt, thank God. But every Friday, when we couldn't hit payroll and our five employees were graciously holding their checks so that we weren't gonna. You know, the checks wouldn't bounce, they were holding their checks for us. Even in those yeses when we said yes to those opportunities, I'm. I'm just. I'm thankful. And most people will look at that and say, well, that was a failed thing. And I look at it and the resilience and the. What I got from that hard season, it was like five years. I don't think we would be here without that. Like, that hard is what prepared us for everything that we're holding now.

[Chip Gaines]

And interestingly, Chip, in the very beginning was saying, oh, what do we have to lose? Right?

[Joanna Gaines]

Yep.

[Chip Gaines]

But now. Now there's a lot, lot more to.

[Joanna Gaines]

Yes.

[Chip Gaines]

A lot more to lose.

[Joanna Gaines]

Yes, there's.

[Chip Gaines]

And.

[Joanna Gaines]

And that's another thing you feel the weight of. It's like all that we've built. And again, that's my point about dreams, is there's a weight that comes with it. There's a responsibility. And for us, it's not. It's more that we have these amazing. And they're like family to us. And that feels like, how do we. How do we keep it to where we can? I don't know. It's no longer about entities and dreams. It's now about your team and your. Your employees that you're like, that's what we want to make sure, you know, we do. Goodbye.

[Chip Gaines]

So the other component in all of this that. That most people won't face as their business grows is that you began to become famous, right? And so a private person, a homebody, as you love to describe yourself, suddenly had to navigate being very well known, I assume, just about anywhere you went. And I wonder if you can help me understand how you've been processing that all of these years, because it is, to your point, an additional weight, right, that you've. That you've had on yourself.

[Joanna Gaines]

I've always been, like, emotionally just. I've always been pretty steady. Like, there's no highs and low. I'm just like this. Like Chip always say, you know, he's the more emotional one at times. He's passionate. He's. I'm very, like, even killed. And I think as the fame thing hit, it didn't affect me emotionally, I think, because it came at a season where Chip and I were very grounded. Like, I was grounded in who I was, why I do the work I do. Like, again, my faith, my relationship with God is what grounds me the most. And so that didn't create this emotional thing for me, like, ah, people approve of me or they like me or they don't like me. It's. I stayed, even killed through the whole process. I think what it really did for me, though, is when I hear the stories of why people connect with us, it still boggles my mind. Like, I'm like, wow, okay, you watched her show or you read this article in the magazine. It's an honor. It's this. This gratitude that I carry, that people care, that people loved being on the journey with us, that they were rooting us along all the whole way, that they followed it like that just feels like this connection that I'm just like, I'm grateful. That's one piece. I would say the thing that kind of aches in my soul or in my heart when I think about the fame. The thing that rises up is the thing that Chip and I love is we're doers. So it's. We don't like to. Like, we're business people. So the thing I loved the most when I had Magnolia in 2003 was standing behind the counter and interacting with every single guest, hearing their story, helping them in their home, writing up the ticket. Like, I loved being a shop owner. I think the thing that is hard is in some ways, you become a disruption. If I were to go work, my favorite thing to do would be behind the counter. At the bakery or behind the counter at the retail store. That disruption of business kind of, we can do it every now and then, but me doing that every day, that's what we miss.

[Chip Gaines]

Because people go all crazy.

[Joanna Gaines]

You show up the hands on day in, day out, being in it on the ground, like, you know, that's the thing that we miss is that that's that piece isn't as possible. And though we'll do it, we'll pop in every now and then and that's like so fun for us. Like, we love it. But to run a business like that, like, we can't throw those, you know, it's hard for the management team when they're like, sure, oh, shoot. You know. And so I think that's the thing that's the hardest for us is the day in, day out, hands on thing is what we miss. But I think the way that we connect with our guests is through the shows, through the magazine, through social, through the books that we write. And then when we get the opportunity to go on the grounds, we will do that so that we have that physical interaction with them that is so.

[Chip Gaines]

Fun in sort of wrapping up the conversation. As we said earlier, the time that you were able to take, stepping away from the business, which gave you some greater clarity also, it sounds like re energized you, right? And made you realize all that you have and think broadly about the possibilities, scaling, taking the silos somewhere else in the country, doing. I mean, is there anything that springs to mind that seems like a natural evolution? It sounds like we're bringing back a little bit of a show that's coming out in a few weeks and does that.

[Joanna Gaines]

Well, the show that's coming out, it'll be in May, so May 14th is when the episodes start dropping. It's nine episodes, it's mini Rennie and it's just these 30 minute episodes. What I love about these is anytime we come off of a larger renovation. So the last renovation we did for Fixer was the lake house. It was, you know, 5,5500 square foot. It was a big project. Before that was the castle, the hotel. I always like to ground myself in the work that I do. And the work I used to do was really simple. It would be one room renovation for a client. And so there's something about that history that when I go back to that, it actually forces me to, to use muscles again. You know, there's a budget, there's a timeline there, it's a smaller room, there's no, you know, demo there's no adding on. And so with that in mind, it forces me to be more creative where when you have a bigger budget, it's a bigger home and sky's the limit on the design. You know, that's fun and that's dreamy, but where I really learn and get better is on these smaller projects with smaller budgets and tighter timelines. And so that's what Mini Rinny is. That's, that's my way of saying I need this in my life before I do the next big project when it comes to fixer upper. And so Minnie Rinny is like always that middle thing I do and then I'll take on another big fixer after it. So this is nine episodes, nine spaces that you'll see transformed with a smaller budget, two to three week timeline. And all I love about this is these are like bite sized, tangible ways for the viewer to see it and go, I can do that over the weekend or I can dream about it and I don't need to, you know, kill the budget. I can, I can dream for that. Well, right now we all know the where we're at. It's just like to dream about, you know, renovating an entire home. That's a lofty dream these days. So now it's how do I transform this corner of my room? How do I bring a little update to my kitchen? And that's really what Minnie Rinny is. And so I'm excited. I love this series. But then on the other side, I mean, I have no specific as to what's next, but like you said, with that clarity of mind, I'm open. And what I love about what we've built here is I don't think I want to do this again times 10. Like, it feels like a lot. But when I think about what I, what the guest resonates with here, whether that be the bakery or the restaurant or the, the grounds, it's like, how do we, how do we dream about this idea of like taking the very best of what we built here, here, and maybe dreaming about how do we bring that to life somewhere else? And that's just like the beginning stage of that where like I said a year ago I was not open to it. Where now I'm like, I think it feels so fun to be able to bring a smaller version of this experience to a town that I feel like is ready or that they'd want us there. Like, it'd be fun. Like, so that's why we're dreaming right now on just the retail side and the food side. But, like, you know, Dennis, there's so many different areas in our business that. So we're. We're dreaming on that specifically. That's what I needed the most clarity on is like, yeah, on the retail side, like, what do we do retail and restaurant? I really wanted to get some clarity there.

[Chip Gaines]

Well, and that's why I was curious in wrapping up Joanna, how. How you describe yourself with all of the many hats that you get to wear. Where does being a designer or decorator or whatever term you want to use? And I've been asking so many designers lately how they like to describe themselves. Decorator, designer, and how do they see that? But also, you're a shopkeeper. You're an innkeeper. You're all these different things, right? I mean, it sounds like I understand.

[Dennis Scully]

Now what resonates with you the most.

[Chip Gaines]

Being in the shop. But. But. But how do you think of all of the different descriptions that can be applied to you?

[Joanna Gaines]

I feel like that's so hard to just say. I love this. Cause it's like, it's a challenge, you know, it's kind of like if you can't put what you do. And once, you know, I think for me, yes, I love design. I love refining things. I love seeing the max potential in something. I love feeding people, because. Feeding people around the table. The moments and memories that happen around a table. I mean, that's what I treasure the most about my own family is, like, when I get those moments with my kiddos. Those are the moments that mark us. Those are the moments that ground us. So food is so important to us. And then hospitality, whether you're staying with us at the hotel or you're on the grounds or you're at the restaurant that you feel welcome. And then, last but not least, we're storytellers. I love telling stories, whether that be in a children's book, in a magazine, and a design project I'm doing. Storytelling is kind of that like, North Star for us. What's the story behind this recipe? What's the story behind this product? What's the story behind this home? Like, that is the grounding thing for us on why we do what we do and how it gets us to the next place. So maybe I can just say I'm a storyteller. I had to go through that whole journey, Dennis, to tell you I'm a storyteller.

[Chip Gaines]

Okay, perfect storyteller. That. That we wrapped it all up there.

[Joanna Gaines]

Thank you for helping me get there, Dennis.

[Chip Gaines]

Yeah. I don't know. I'm glad we could go through this exercise together. And now you, now you have some even greater clarity there.

[Joanna Gaines]

I love it. I'll get that tattoo on my wrist so I don't forget.

[Chip Gaines]

I'm thrilled that we finally got to have this conversation. Joanna and I thank you so much for making the time and it's great to see you.

[Joanna Gaines]

Thank you Dennis. Always love chatting with you. Can't wait to see you again. And then maybe by then I'll be able to tell you this is what's next. Dennis.

[Dennis Scully]

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us [e-mail] where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BOH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a [e-mail] if you're.

[Chip Gaines]

Enjoying these conversations, please leave us a.

[Dennis Scully]

Review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.