Dennis Scully (3:33)

Well, but as you say, it's a shame that we don't have that same kind of. That home EC struggle. I certainly never had home EC in any of you. Didn't many high schools that I attended in New York City, nothing prepared me for life.

Kim Skodrow (3:46)

Nothing prepared you. And I grew up in very middle America. You know, in Illinois, moms on homecoming weekend dated my husband since we were 15. I was the cheerleader. He was on the football team. It was very middle America.

Dennis Scully (4:04)

Norman Rockwell is painting it right now.

Kim Skodrow (4:06)

It really was. It really was. It was Friday Night Lights, but not in Texas. But. And it was just. It was just such a part of our culture and our being. And so when it was taken away from the schools, it's just, it's sad. But I used to teach a night class and it was called Sow youw Own Window Treatments. And so. Yeah, well, so.

Dennis Scully (4:30)

And, and I'm surprised there isn't more of that. We often talk, relative to the fabric industry, that there aren't more people that are just buying fabric on their own, making curtains, making slipcovers and that sort of thing. And, and we don't lean into that in America in the same way that in that in Europe, a lot of companies do lean into that customer.

Kim Skodrow (4:51)

Yeah, no, I, I think you're 100% right. And that is one. If you ever talk to any designer, they will tell you their window treatment quote. It's a shock. It's like, it's how much. But the work that goes into that, the work that goes into upholstery is so labor intensive. Imagine the. To do draperies, you know, two and a half time with draperies, the size table you need, the hanging space you need to do. And so I have a true appreciation for that. And so I do feel like a lot of times I can watch walk clients off the ledge, you know, help them say, hey, listen, here is why things are so expensive. So having that home EC knowledge comes in handy.

Dennis Scully (5:36)

Exactly. Let me tell you how my high school students would have approached this issue. So tell me about, tell me how you transition into your next career from being a home EC instructor. What happens?

Kim Skodrow (5:51)

So, well, then I stopped teaching because it's just not the most profitable business being a Teacher in a all girls Catholic school. And I had my sons, and that was my next true profession. I took it very seriously until they fired me when they didn't need me anymore. They were like, yeah, okay.

Dennis Scully (6:12)

And how old were they when they let you go?

Kim Skodrow (6:14)

You know, they were high school, but whatever. Okay, I'm kidding. But it was like, you know, there's a point where it's like, okay, you know, you've done your part. And that's when I just. It was a brave step. I'm not a brave person. I am not. I will tell you right now, safe is my comfort zone. And so I went to asid. I felt a sense of security, even though it didn't mean anything, but I had that sense of security that I could go out. And then, I mean, I have the luxury of having the Merchandise Mart here in Chicago. So there's. It's a great place to learn, A great place to learn. And I just started teaching myself. And then I took a leap of faith and reached out to a real estate broker and said, if by chance you happen to have somebody that wants just a little living room done, and maybe I could, you know, as indirectly as, you know, Midwesterning as I could be begging. And so they did. And that was my first client, who to this day was also my most challenging client. Just challenging. And that was a good thing. A really good thing.

Dennis Scully (7:27)

So tell me, tell me what, what year roughly we're talking about when you.

Kim Skodrow (7:30)

Oh, that was. That was about 18 years ago.

Dennis Scully (7:36)

Okay, so. So 2007. Ish.

Kim Skodrow (7:38)

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because then the world fell apart.

Dennis Scully (7:41)

Which. Right, exactly. Which I also want to talk about. So you go to ASID and they. They give you an accreditation of. Of sorts.

Kim Skodrow (7:49)

Yes. You' An ASID Allied member.

Dennis Scully (7:54)

An allied member.

Kim Skodrow (7:55)

Allied member. Just gave me confidence.

Dennis Scully (7:57)

Exactly. And I think often that's just what we need is that little extra boost of confidence. So then you reach out to this real estate broker and say, you know, I'll take anything. And then lo and behold, you get that first job.

Kim Skodrow (8:09)

And it was a whole house, and they were a couple that they didn't have any children, and it was a vacation home. And she was just the most exacting human being you'll ever meet. Like, everything. She was just incredibly particular. And that was so good for me. And at the time, I was just so happy to have the project that I wasn't complaining or I was happy. I was just happy to have it. And looking back on it, it was like, oh, I can't even Believe I survived that. But they were thrilled and it all worked out, and I really happy. I wasn't the cabinet maker or anyone else, because if something were off by 1.16of an inch, that was it. Game over. It all had to be ripped out and redone.

Dennis Scully (9:02)

Well, so that's what I was going to ask you. Was she constantly making you redo things or start. I mean, what was her exactitude? How would it show up?

Kim Skodrow (9:10)

How many shades of burgundy, cotton, velvet can you show someone until they have selected the one that is just right? And I didn't mind. I just kept going back, getting samples, samples, samples, as many as I could carry, and it was fine. But I mean, today I would have handled that situation differently. I still think I would be accommodating, but I would have had the skillset to handle that differently.

Dennis Scully (9:39)

So what would that look like today? What would you look at?

Kim Skodrow (9:41)

I think it would look like, are you looking for a burgundy that has more blue in it? Are you looking for a burgundy that has more red in it? Let's take a look at these two. You know, I just think there are ways, you know, I often hear designers on your show or talk in general about managing the client and how we have to manage the client and, you know, we have to be better at it and manage the project, and that means, you know, helping the client. And I agree with a lot of that. But at the end of the day, we are still hired to make them happy and do the job. So I don't know that I could ever come in and say, this is it. This is how we're doing it. It's this or no way, you know, my way or the highway that's not in my comfort zone. But I do have respect. I think I could have been better at that first project if I had a little bit more of that skill set.

Dennis Scully (10:28)

Well, and you hadn't. It's not as if you had worked for another firm for a time.

Kim Skodrow (10:33)

No, no.

Dennis Scully (10:34)

Or had you even spoken to other professionals in the industry about.

Kim Skodrow (10:38)

No. And it was more just, you know, oh, bless them. Those. All the people in the showrooms that worked in the showrooms. I mean, if you open up to them, they are. There are so many of them that are willing to help you and give you guidance and, you know, just help along the way. And even, you know, that's a really good point that you say about other designers, because I've tried to be that person. If anybody has questions or anything. Oh, good. But. And. And, you know, you know, I mean, part of DLN and LDC, that's sort of their M.O. and I really love that about it. But I remember I was. I had done my first show house, and a designer walked in and she came into the space and she said, oh, have you done the show house before? And I said, no, no, no, I haven't. This is my first. She's like, oh, well, this is my third. If you need anything, you just come to me. I'm here to help you in any way that you want. She wasn't assigned to me or anything. She was just a good person.

Dennis Scully (11:37)

Yeah.

Kim Skodrow (11:38)

And I feel like designers today are more like that than maybe they were 17 years ago. And maybe, hopefully that's just the way the world's going, that people are kinder. Well, some people.

Dennis Scully (11:52)

Sure. Kim. Oh, yes, I've totally noticed that out in the world that people are so much kinder. Yes.

Kim Skodrow (11:57)

You know, let's make it a thing, Dennis.

Dennis Scully (11:59)

I trip over that all the time. No, I mean, I do think that. I do think that many designers are extremely generous. And in fact, I'm surprised how often I will talk to a designer and they will tell me in the early days of their career how so. And so shared his contract with me or so. And so. So told me how to charge or gave me real great advice because it is so challenging getting started again, particularly if you haven't worked somewhere else and you don't even know what clients expectations are going to be like. And how do you make money at this business?

Kim Skodrow (12:37)

It's funny. And how do you continue after that one client? And how do you get. I mean, the way I went about getting published is so bad, backwards.

Dennis Scully (12:47)

Well, so tell me about that.

Kim Skodrow (12:48)

Oh, my goodness. So I shot a project and I mean, to this day, I've always had. I just love Traditional home. The people at Traditional Home. I knew Ann Main. She was the first one that. In fact, Jill just reached out yesterday. They're doing something, asking about if I could give some quotes about what traditional home meant to me and to my career. And I have so much I owe to it. Do you remember a magazine called Renovation Style?

Dennis Scully (13:18)

Sure.

Kim Skodrow (13:19)

So I just kept sending Traditional Home, Renovation Style. I just kept sending them these photos over and over. You know, the. The printed glossy over and over and over and over. And finally they replied and they're like, fine, we'll send someone to take a look at it. And they did leave us alone. They were, yeah, just stop already. I mean, what are you spending in postage, woman? So they did, and it ended up Being on the of the magazine, which for me was huge. It was huge. And it was in a Walgreens, and someone picked it up. She looked at it, she was like, oh, this person's in Chicago. That's where I'm from. And that just one thing led to another. And then Ann Main. I had done some show houses for traditional home in Napa. And all of those things really matter. You know, I think today there's. It's hard. There's so much. And I. I think Jill will tell you this. Jill cone will tell you this. At Lux, too. There are so many fabulous projects out there, but there's only so much space. And my husband says there's no such thing as luck. You make your own luck. But I do believe a lot of it has to do with being in the right place at the right time and a little bit of luck.

Dennis Scully (14:39)

No, I completely agree. And I think most successful designers will tell you that certainly a big percentage of their success comes from luck. And as you say so often, it's someone seeing that cover or saying yes to that project being submitted, and that can just make such a huge difference. Let's go back, though, for a moment, because as you just suggested before you started your firm, let's call it 2007. Let's call it Right. Just a year or so before the whole world starts falling apart. How did that show up for you?

Kim Skodrow (15:18)

Well, it was an unusual time because not only did the whole world fall apart, we had two sons in college. I was trying to start this career. To this day, I still don't know until after my sons were well out of college that they ever even knew I did anything. Because, you know, you're sort of in that world where you're like, you know, I know I have parents. They're great people. I touch base with them. But I don't want to hear a whole lot about their life right now.

Dennis Scully (15:47)

I don't really know what they do.

Kim Skodrow (15:48)

I don't know what goes on.

Dennis Scully (15:50)

There's a lot of details that I.

Kim Skodrow (15:52)

Don'T know what mom's doing all day. And then you have this whole 2008 situation that was happening and looking back on it, of course, it's builds strength and all of the other. But luckily, I feel like I continued to get projects because the people that maybe work with interior designers are a little more. If they're going to buy a house, they're going to decorate it, right? If you have the money to. Hiring an interior designer is a luxury. It is a luxury. It's like getting your nails painted. I can go get my nails done, and they're going to be fantastic. I'm going to have an enjoyable experience. I can also paint my own nails. They're not going to last. It's not going to look great. I'll probably have to redo them. That's how an interior designer is. It's a luxury. So the people that are living in that luxury market, I think, are a little insulated to some things that go on. So I was able to continue to grow during that bad time.

Dennis Scully (16:52)

And did you have anybody working with you in the office?

Kim Skodrow (16:55)

No. And it was really scary to hire the first person that I hired, who subsequently is Ben. She, when she joined, she had a boyfriend. During that time, she moved in with her boyfriend, got married, had three babies. Like, it's been. I'm still in touch with her. She's fantastic. But, you know, I felt this incredible weight of the world taking on somebody and being responsible for somebody who was counting on an income. I mean, that's scary, isn't it?

Dennis Scully (17:29)

Yes. Yes.

Kim Skodrow (17:31)

It's really scary. I remember saying to my husband, how do you sleep at night? You know, you have to. These people, they're sending kids to college. Like, it's a lot. And so I really was nervous about that, but I couldn't do it anymore.

Dennis Scully (17:44)

On your own? You couldn't do.

Kim Skodrow (17:45)

On my own? No. And a. I needed her skill set. I mean, the best advice is always hire somebody that's smarter than you and better than you. And, yeah, I mean, she came in and she had the cad skills, she had talent. She had all of the above. And we became a fantastic team, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. And then it just continued to grow. And I really believe you've had this advice on your show before, but five is a perfect number. Five, six people.

Dennis Scully (18:16)

Five is the right number for the team.

Kim Skodrow (18:18)

I think that has to go down as Dennis Scully business of home podcast, quote of a lifetime, people. Is it. Who was it that said it. Was it Billy Baldwin? Yeah, exactly.

Dennis Scully (18:33)

I think it was Billy Baldwin who was.

Kim Skodrow (18:35)

And then David reiterated that. Yeah, but I do. I think it's a very. You know, we have a few senior designers. We have some designers that, you know, have a little less experience. I don't want to call them junior designers because they are designers. We have someone that takes care of all of our. Our business, our books and things like that. And it's just a perfect number. I'd be nervous going beyond that.

Dennis Scully (19:01)

So you'd be. Have you ever scaled Up. Has there been a project that required you to.

Kim Skodrow (19:05)

Yes, yes. Yeah, it was fine. It's just more. I like to have my hands in everything. And so if you're having to do, you know, manage personalities and, you know, this is like a no drama. We're no drama. If you were bringing drama, you just work that out before you enter the door. I don't want drama. No drama. I don't want, like, drama. It makes me nervous. So, yeah, so it's. No. We have a great team right now, but there's a chance we may have to add on in the near future, and we'll do that very slowly.

Dennis Scully (19:38)

And now with the experience that you've had, when you think about hiring that next person, what do you think about? What are you looking for? So often when I'm talking with the New York School of Interior Designer students, one of the first questions that they'll ask one of the guests is, so, what do you look for when you're hiring? You know, how do I make myself more desirable?

Kim Skodrow (20:02)

Yeah. I mean, for me, there's only one thing, and that's kindness. You either are a kind person or you're not. You have to be kind to the vendors. You have to be kind to the clients. You have to be kind to your fellow coworkers. You can teach everything. We can teach you how we work. We can teach you how we scheme. We can teach you how we present. You've learned your skill set in school, but you cannot teach basic kindness. And to us, that's just. That's really, really important. We never lose sight of. We can't do what we do without having respect and showing kindness to the people that help us. And that's why there's a. You know, we always have a conversation when somebody new comes in. It's like, there are no egos here. When we are scheming for a project, we work on every project as a team. And so everybody will do different schemes. We all come in and we all critique it, and it's like, ugh. Ugh, that's the worst. Ugh. Get rid of it. No. Like, you can't be upset, and you also can't, you know, cheer. Do the victory dance when a client picks the fabric you chose. Like, this is a team sport and a team effort here. And sometimes I think it's hard to shake that initially.

Dennis Scully (21:20)

Well, it's interesting that you mentioned about. We were having a conversation on this week's Thursday show about design critique and how it doesn't exist in our industry in the same way that there are famous food critics and there are famous art critics and architecture critics. But who comes to mind who does interior design criticism? No one. I mean, at a cocktail party, we know who comes to mind for who is going to dish about this project or that project, but.

Kim Skodrow (21:55)

Exactly. But I do think sometimes you set yourself up. I mean, I felt a bit. Just recently put in front of a firing squad. I think sometime. Well, something happened. It wasn't bad, but we did some work at this country club and you're never going to please everyone, right? So I just felt like it was going to be coming left and right. What was that for? Why were those, you know, draperies used, blah, blah, blah. But so far, nothing. So far they've been level. Still new, though.

Dennis Scully (22:27)

I mean, you know, it's interesting because just before this chat, I was watching the home tour that you gave of your home in Georgia on Homeworthy. Right. So I'm watching this video and there's hundreds of comments. I don't know if you've looked at that video recently, but, I mean, a lot of people weighed in. First of all, they're all in love with you and they think your house is so beautiful and you're so charming. And they're all coming over.

Kim Skodrow (22:53)

No.

Dennis Scully (22:54)

To hang out with the crocodile things. Well, that's what I was gonna ask you because seemed like, oh, this is so sweet. This is so lovely. But I assume there were two in there. There were two negative comments. And what did they have to say.

Kim Skodrow (23:07)

When it first came out and they were comments on there. I didn't know there were comments. And my son said, you know, mom, there's comments. Don't look. Well, are you kidding? That's like being in a restaurant and saying, look who's behind you, but don't look.

Dennis Scully (23:20)

Right? Don't turn around. Paul Newman is behind you. Turn around.

Kim Skodrow (23:24)

Don't look. Yeah, but of course I looked and there were two comments. One was, the kids bunk beds look like they're in a home for where bad children go. Who even thinks that? Right? Who even thinks like that? And the other one was, could your necklace be any bigger?

Dennis Scully (23:47)

It's like, ouch.

Kim Skodrow (23:48)

Well, ouch. That's mean.

Dennis Scully (23:50)

Wow. So that was actually like a physical appearance comment, A physical attack.

Kim Skodrow (23:55)

I was like, what? Well, at least they didn't say anything about, you know, time for a touch up on your highlights or something.

Dennis Scully (24:01)

Well, I mean, let's stay focused on the house here, people.

Kim Skodrow (24:06)

Which was. But yes, you open. You open yourself up. I felt that way with Kips Bay too?

Dennis Scully (24:12)

Sure.

Kim Skodrow (24:12)

So I was, oh, well, that's a whole, that's a whole level of stress that humans do not need to be under. But I, I felt like, you know, I had this sense of calm right before Kips Bay was ready to open. And I thought to myself, if I walk in and I think it's pretty and I'm proud of it and what we've done, then that's enough for me. That just has to be enough. And I did feel that way. So that put me at ease.

Dennis Scully (24:41)

But was that a good thing for you as far as exposure and clients and all of that?

Kim Skodrow (24:47)

Yes, it. Absolutely. It was a good thing. It was a good thing. I loved being able to. Well, of course I, you know, I'm obsessed with Gracie and they were so incredibly generous. I mean, they're just amazing. I love being able to highlight hickory chair. I do think that because of that, I'm doing the flower show house in Nashville this fall. And I think that by doing Kips Bay that maybe helped Margo made that possible.

Dennis Scully (25:22)

Yeah, that's great.

Kim Skodrow (25:23)

So I do think everything that you do, maybe you're not seeing the initial, but it leads to other things.

Dennis Scully (25:36)

We're taking a quick break to remind you about Ernesta. Immerse your clients in Elevated design with Ernesta's curated collection of custom sized rugs. With unlimited complimentary samples, exclusive trade discounts, and personalized support from a dedicated team of consultants, Ernesta makes it easy to explore options and bring your creative vision to life. To apply for membership or learn more, visit ernesta.com boh and now back to the show. What I'm always curious about, particularly for someone like you who comes from. Right. This wasn't the industry that you were schooled for or that you came up in that building process. We talked earlier about making that first hire for you and how stressful that was and then making sure you had enough business to get that. And here you had this very demanding client right out of the gate.

Kim Skodrow (26:38)

Right.

Dennis Scully (26:39)

I mean, I'm curious how you even knew how to charge or some designers mark up and some designers charge a design fee. And I mean, how did you come to learn all of that structure?

Kim Skodrow (26:50)

You know, it's amazing what you can find in books back then. And so it was. I did an hourly fee and then I passed along a portion of my discount to them. And I will remember this for forever. But I figured everything out. And if they had done bought everything, the whole house, I was going to make 10,000 doll. I just couldn't believe I was going to make that much money. I just couldn't believe it. I was like, are you kidding me? And then I was invited to Larry Lasso. Do you remember that name? The designer? What was.

Dennis Scully (27:28)

Sure. Larry Laszlo.

Kim Skodrow (27:29)

Larry Laszlo, yes. So he came to Kravit, I believe, and they hosted a dinner. And I went to the dinner and he was there and I was sitting next to this designer and she was like, I am so tired of designers not charging their worth. It's just doing nothing but degrading the whole industry and there is no reason we shouldn't be paid for the work that we're doing and blah, blah, blah, blah. And that stuck in my head as much as advice from Marriott Hein Gomez that I got one time did. But that stuck in my head and it was like, how are you to expect to be respected and paid well for the work that you do if you're not believing it yourself? And she was so right. And so I just continued to read what the industry standard was and continued to look what, you know, my model, don't tell Sean, but I don't do a flat fee. Please don't tell, uh, oh, please don't tell them. But everybody has to do what's comfortable for them. And so it took time to get the confidence to say, hey, listen, I am working so many hours, I really need to be adequately compensated for that.

Dennis Scully (28:45)

$10,000 is $10,000 on, you know, for.

Kim Skodrow (28:49)

A nine month project. Oh my goodness. I think that it's like anything, you have to have a work ethic. I don't care where you went to school, I don't care. Work ethic, work ethic, work ethic.

Dennis Scully (29:03)

Well, so what did Marriott Himes Gomez do?

Kim Skodrow (29:05)

Oh, yes, yes, she. So this is. Yeah, oh yes. This was years ago and she had a collection with Hickory Chair. And I had no affiliation with Hickory Chair other than, you know, I love Hickory chair product always. And so I was at High Point and I was back in Merritt Gomez area space and it was just her and I, there was no one else. And I was like, this, is this real? Is this, am I like on Candid Camera? Is it just her and I, this is like a joke. So I'm like, pull up your big girl pants, go over and say something to her. So I went over and I said, you know, I just, I think you're amazing. You know, I'm brand new, just starting out. Is there one piece of advice that you can give me? And she said, yes, always get the best photography that you can afford. I did that. And that was for that first project that landed on the COVID so early in my career. Yeah. Thank you. Mariette Heim Gomez, right?

Dennis Scully (30:04)

Wow.

Kim Skodrow (30:05)

Yeah. And that's what she said. And you know what? It's so true. It is so true. Photography is everything. And I am a big believer in a stylist as well, because they know how to move a vase one quarter of a turn, and it just can change an entire shot.

Dennis Scully (30:24)

Well, that's great advice. And I love that Marriott Heims Gomez gave you that advice when you cornered her. Cornered her in her space, with her.

Kim Skodrow (30:32)

And I. Can you. Could you. Could you imagine? Like, I was like, seriously, is this really happening? Because back then, I don't. High Point. I mean, there were so many people at High Pointe, you could barely walk in the showrooms. And it was like, it's just her and I.

Dennis Scully (30:50)

Well, and it's interesting. And I was thinking about this because right after High Point, we did a High Point recap show, and Caitlin and I actually, we were talking about your collection.

Kim Skodrow (31:01)

I know. I was so excited. I was so happy.

Dennis Scully (31:04)

Well, and it was beautiful, but it was also. I mean, again, and I think we talked about this at the time. It felt so of the time. It felt like there were so many lovely decorative elements and skirts on sofas and things that you had incorporated. And I found myself wondering, thinking about our conversation today, how you articulate your style, your look, if in fact you feel you have a signature look or a style, tell me how you think about it.

Kim Skodrow (31:39)

Yeah. I feel like for our clients, we are client driven. We will be whatever they would like us to be. We always try to give them the most tasteful version of what they're looking at. And it's sort of like there are a couple awful unwritten rules that we have. Like, if we go into a client's house and they don't offer us a glass of water or anything, you know, it's just like, okay, this is. That's just what you do when someone comes to your home. Can I get you a glass of water? Can I get you something to drink? That's just. And we always say no, but it's always.

Dennis Scully (32:16)

We never accept the water.

Kim Skodrow (32:17)

We never accept. Oh, my goodness.

Dennis Scully (32:21)

Exactly.

Kim Skodrow (32:22)

God forbid we will choke before we would accept the water. But, you know, it's nice to be. You know, it just. It says something about the people. We have this other state, like, during a presentation, if a client or during that time and they're showing us something that's Just really not in great taste. We will say, oh, you know, I think a more tasteful option would be.

Dennis Scully (32:47)

And have I shown you the Gracie wallpaper book? Let me just.

Kim Skodrow (32:51)

Exactly. A more tasteful.

Dennis Scully (32:53)

Does this resonate with you?

Kim Skodrow (32:56)

But it's a learning experience. I mean, we have never had a client come in and say they want this and be very firm and leave having that. It's a learning experience.

Dennis Scully (33:06)

Are there other ways that signal to you, this is someone I want to work with or I don't want to work with?

Kim Skodrow (33:11)

Yeah, I think when somebody. When the very first question they ask, ask, like, I don't know you. Maybe you weren't a referral. We don't have any connection. Or maybe it's like three people removed our connection, and the very first thing they asked me is, what do you charge?

Dennis Scully (33:29)

Right.

Kim Skodrow (33:29)

How can I tell you what I charge when I don't even know what I'm. I'm doing for you? But that, to me, it's like, before you ask again, that's a courtesy. Like, let's just play nice. I know you want to know what I charge. Let's just play nice before you hit me with that question.

Dennis Scully (33:45)

I mean, let's.

Kim Skodrow (33:45)

Yeah, that's that. And it is a concern. And I, you know, people are like, oh, we don't have a budget. Well, that's just not true. Everyone has a budget. And just, you know, we tried to tell people to please be honest with your budget. If you tell us your budget is $10 and your budget is actually $100, we have to go back and redo everything, and it's ended up costing you more money and time. So. And just because it is what. What you're saying it is doesn't mean we're going to spend it all. But you just really have to be honest with that. I think that's something else people don't. Designers don't really talk about is I think there are some people that either give the impression or make you feel as though I won't touch anything for under a million dollars or I won't take a bunch. You know, that. I just had lunch with a fellow designer just to catch up up earlier this week, and we were talking about it, and he has been in business forever. One of the most respected designers in Chicago. Great guy. And he was like, you know, I had somebody reach out recently, and they were like, listen, I have 60 to 80 thousand dollars to spend. You know, would you be willing to. To work with me? And he was like, they were so lovely. I need work for the more junior designers in the firm and, and who knows what it can lead to. It just depends where you are at a certain point. I mean, for him that was a very, very low starting point. Maybe normally a non negotiable, but at this particular moment, that was it. Everyone is not doing multimillion dollar projects every project. It's just not. It's just not what it is. It's not the reality of it.

Dennis Scully (35:24)

Well, and it's interesting to hear you say that because so often when designers are being candid, they will tell you, listen, I need, sometimes I need a quick project that's only going to be a few months because that's going to help cover me for all the money that is being put out and the time over on this big project that's going to be completed in two or three years. So actually some $80,000 projects, that's great because it just helps to kind of fill in with the cash flow of the operation sometimes.

Kim Skodrow (35:52)

And you are absolutely right in that not everybody shares that information or talks about, about that. Let's be real here. We're all in the same boat. We're all just trying to do a good job. We're all just trying to stay afloat and do good work and do good projects. I do like that. I think that's why I do feel strongly about dln. There's a lot of honest discussion in those groups that I really appreciate.

Dennis Scully (36:18)

Yeah, it sounds like that's been really valuable for a lot of people.

Kim Skodrow (36:21)

It really is.

Dennis Scully (36:22)

And the groups can really open up with each other and really share some things, which is great. And we don't get enough of that in the world. And along those lines, I mean, I'm always curious. And you and I were talking just before we started recording about what we wish we had known about the challenges of the interior design industry or what we really should be sharing with. Whether again, whether it's the niced students or the people who are thinking about transitioning into interior design, talking candidly about what a challenging industry this is.

Kim Skodrow (36:55)

It is. It's so hard when you think about it. There's not that many people that can afford an interior designer. Right. I mean, again, we talked about this. It's a luxury. There's a lot of great interior designers out there. How do you set yourself apart when, let's say everybody is equally talented? How do you set yourself apart? What is it about your firm that is going to make people come to you or gravitate to you? And to me Again, you just need to outwork people. Me, I just. That is just my mo. I am just gonna try and outwork myself outwork so that I just will do the best job possible, because I do. I'm very appreciative of. Of the work that we have, and I'm very appreciative that people have chosen us. But you cannot sit and think that it is just. We had an intern. Oh, a couple years ago, we had an intern, and she said that when she graduated, she was going to work for a construction company that had built in interior design projects because they built spec homes. And she was going to make $350,000 a year, her first year. And I was like, well, where do I apply for that job? I would like that job. Are you kidding me? Like, please. That's just not what it is. It's like any other business. You have to work hard, and you also have to be prepared to be shot down.

Dennis Scully (38:21)

Well, and talk to me about that, because I was talking with the designer the other day who was talking about the need to just have such a thick skin, right? Because you're going to be told no far more than people realize, or what you wanted or what you proposed isn't going to be what happens. And you can't let that eat you up. And yet sometimes you do.

Kim Skodrow (38:43)

You do. And you can't help but take it personally. Or it's. You read into things. I think a lot of times, you know, somebody once said the world. People today are so busy thinking about themselves that they don't have time to worry about you. They're not thinking about you. But I think we read into things. Like, I look at someone's mannerisms when they're looking at a scheme or a piece of furniture, and I'm like, oh, my God, they're hate it. Oh, they hate it. Oh, they can't stand it. Oh, they're never going to pick it. Oh, geez, why did I show them that? And then all of a sudden they're like, that one. I think that one's good. It's like, what's wrong with me? Why was I. Why was I being so pessimistic? But I think that your mind can play so many games on you. And I do think being part. If you were starting out being part, getting yourself part of an organization is key. And even if you work at a firm, a large firm, a small firm, whatever it is, having an outside group of people that do the same thing that you do is really nice to have. It's really nice to go and talk to people about that. And I don't know that there's enough new designer groups that are out there that people are participating in. I feel like that is such valuable feedback to have. And I'm not saying that you sit there and take all feedback to heart, but. But it will help squash any insecurities that you have. They talk about, what is it, the imposter syndrome?

Dennis Scully (40:12)

Yes. There's a lot of people talk about that.

Kim Skodrow (40:14)

Yeah. I mean, it's true of any industry. And I think this is where experience comes in. You know, some of the younger designers are like, I just don't get it. I just don't get why they don't want it. It's like, well, they have a mortgage. They're probably preparing for their kids future. They're probably thinking about summer camp that they have to pay for for their kids. Like, they're not thinking, just, do they love it? They're thinking, do I want to spend the money at this point on this room? And, you know, it's just a cycle. There's a lot going through it where we're just focused on why are they not loving our scheme? And instead we're, you know, they're sitting there thinking, oh my gosh, what is this going to do to my bank account? And again, going back to having a little empathy, having a little kindness, trying to put yourself in the situation of what everyone is going through before you go beating yourself up.

Dennis Scully (41:03)

I think, you know, the point you're making, too, about sometimes we. We can't understand why they don't want to make the investment. I was talking to a designer, and he said, I can't believe this client doesn't want to buy this $15 million home. And I'm like, what's wrong with you? You're never going to have this opportunity again.

Kim Skodrow (41:16)

Right?

Dennis Scully (41:16)

And I'm thinking, really? Because it's a $15 million home. Like, I can imagine, like, just maybe pausing, stepping back for a minute and thinking, but I feel like our industry has gotten so much more expensive in recent years.

Kim Skodrow (41:28)

Dennis, you are. You could not be closer to the truth. I am just in shock. I mean, it is so expensive. Everything is so expensive. And, you know, you get a little jaded when you work in this industry. And then I go out and I go shopping, and I'm like, oh, that sweater. That sweater is only $2200. Give me it in every color.

Dennis Scully (41:52)

Like, how many do you have?

Kim Skodrow (41:54)

I mean, please. I mean, you really. I mean, the numbers are just. They're They're. It's just crazy. And so, yeah, I mean, we have a lot of repeat clients. And I see, you know, I mean, we've done five homes from, six homes from. And I see even they're starting to say, wait, whoa, what? That's quite different than it was three years ago. Or.

Dennis Scully (42:19)

Interesting. Yeah.

Kim Skodrow (42:20)

And it is, it is. And I get that. I get it. That sticker shock and call it inflation, call it tariffs, call it whatever, whatever. I mean, there's something going on now that is making things more expensive and putting a little fear into our industry and all very valid.

Dennis Scully (42:40)

How does it present itself for you? How do clients. I mean, is it just that clients react a certain way or are clients starting to dial back certain elements or do you have to substitute product? I mean, how does it present itself?

Kim Skodrow (42:55)

Yes. More thought in questioning, I would say instead of, oh, gosh, but I love that fabric so much. You know what, just do it instead. Is there something that could make it equally as cool? But we're not spending as much on that. And I respect that. I mean, I do. I have, you know, I'm like that in my own life. I totally. It got gross for a while. It was gross when people were just spending so much money and they never.

Dennis Scully (43:21)

What was gross? And when you were.

Kim Skodrow (43:22)

It was gross. How much? You know, maybe like 10 years ago, I. Right. You know, there was this period for like three years where people were just like, oh, I don't care. I love it. You know, I'll take it. Don't, you know, don't worry. And I'm just like, oh, my gosh. But you have three kids that have to go to college. Like, oh, my gosh. And I do believe everyone spends their money differently. Like, some people put all their money into their home. Right. But other people want to spend as much on their home, but they want to travel and they want to stay in nice places and have good experiences. So you really can't judge somebody or a situation by that. But trying to figure that out and trying to figure out the dynamic of that family and how they. That's why we ask budgets. I'm not being nosy when I ask your budget. I'm just asking so that we have a starting point. Are we going solely to Holly Hunt or are we working in some more cost effective arenas? But I do think people are. They're just thinking a little longer. You know, we have on the bottom of all of our quotes that this quote is good for 15 days. And after 15 days, we'll have to re quote it.

Dennis Scully (44:31)

15. Okay, interesting.

Kim Skodrow (44:33)

15 days. Yeah.

Dennis Scully (44:33)

So tick tock. Wow. TikTok.

Kim Skodrow (44:35)

Because we'll have to re quote it because we've been getting so many price increases. Well, if that tariff is added within those 15 days, we're paying that. I'm not going to go to the client even though they know what's going on in the world, even though they know I'm just not. And right now it's been manageable and sustainable. Well, I don't know. I mean, is it going to.

Dennis Scully (44:59)

So that's the decision you made. You said, I'm not going. I'm going to absorb that. If my price gets increased, I'm going to eat it for the client for this 15 day period. Interesting.

Kim Skodrow (45:09)

But I have a friend who owns a showroom and he has a lot of lighting that comes from England and all of a sudden he has in his showroom all these people have purchased lighting and he can't possibly afford to pay the tariff without going back to the designer who then the designer has to make the decision, are they going to pay it or are they going to go to their client and ask for the money? And you can say we can say all we want. Well, people are watching the news, they know what's going on in the world. But at the end of the day, I have put on there 15 days and I'm going to honor that. I just am. I did have some people that, some vendors that were like, if your client wants to order something now, you might want to tell them now before the tariff comes. And I don't really buy into that theory because it feels a little bit pressure. Used car salesman, he liked me. Or buying something just because it's on sale. Who knows? I mean, maybe they approve it and then something changes and that tariff is gone. I don't know. It all just, it's all a little. It's a confusing time, Dennis, right now. That's all I'm going to say in, in our industry, in all industries, I'm sure. But you know, I have hope that and faith that it will all work itself out eventually.

Dennis Scully (46:34)

Well, so in wrapping up our conversation here, Kim, we talked briefly about your collection with hickory chair. And can we talk about another collection that you're working on or are we.

Kim Skodrow (46:47)

Yes, the fabric.

Dennis Scully (46:49)

Yes. I didn't know if we were allowed to.

Kim Skodrow (46:54)

It is not a licensed collection. It is a collection that I've been working on for the past 14 months. It is a collection that in my dream world would be on the lines of some fabrics that are in John Rosale, the James showroom, Wells Abbott showroom. I'm going to London in a couple weeks to meet with a showroom there. It is a very, yeah. And you know, these types of fabrics, there are some, you know, the design social pop up. They are, I'm familiar, an amazing avenue for these independent brands and I could not be more excited about it. It's a beautiful, beautiful collection. And yeah, it's just a, like, why, why am I doing this to myself?

Dennis Scully (47:44)

Well, so that's going to be my question, Jen, because what's wrong with me? Whenever I'm talking to somebody, someone who tells me that they're coming out with a fabric collection, I just have to ask, did you look around and you couldn't find what, what could you not find, Kim? No, it wasn't what white space is out there that has not been filled. And have people told you what it's like having a small fabric line and that it is not an easy endeavor?

Kim Skodrow (48:09)

No, no. But has have people told me what it was like to start an interior design firm from scratch?

Dennis Scully (48:18)

Turns out that wasn't easy.

Kim Skodrow (48:20)

I have had the most fun doing this. Maybe it's my addiction to fabric, maybe it's my early home ec, maybe it's those years of going to the fabric store vaccines every weekend. But I could not be more excited about it. It is definitely, and this is such another weird thing to say, but it is definitely just a labor of love. I have had had the most fun doing this. And no, it is not something that it's very, you know, 18th, 19th century European driven in its design element. And there are so many people out there that are doing that so well. Sister Parrish, Skylar Samperson, Lisa Fine. You know, there's a lot of them out there that are doing that. They're doing that very, very well. And just like everything else, I, I really do believe there's enough just like a good interior designer, there's enough space in the market and it can fit seamlessly into that. But again, weird time to be doing this. Dennis.

Dennis Scully (49:29)

Well, it's an interesting time. I know that you know what a big endeavor this is. You're, you're taking on huge, but big.

Kim Skodrow (49:37)

Big endeavor, expensive endeavor. If you have actually spend the time really researching it and why some brands have been so successful and others have not. It's pretty crystal clear what's your sense.

Dennis Scully (49:53)

What'S your what becomes.

Kim Skodrow (49:54)

I think some people just like anything else, they just try and grow too big, grow to be more try to push too much out there. Showrooms just don't have that much space. It's like doing licensing collections. With fabric houses, there is just not the space. And I think a lot of fabric houses now are trying to bring their own brand identity back instead of just being associated with particular designers. But they sure have the. They've actually. Everyone. I don't want to name names, but I've talked to big companies, and they have been so unbelievably helpful with information that they were willing to share. People are so. Oh, yeah, people have been really, really helpful. And people have also been very, you know, use caution, tread lightly, use caution, do this, don't do that. And I've taken it all to heart. You know, I think, just for me, what's exciting about Hickory Chair, what's exciting about this, what's exciting about what I have coming up in the spring of 26 is. It's nice to have another creative outlet. It's nice to keep yourself. It's something that keeps you always learning, learning something new. I mean, what I have learned from Hickory Chair, what I've learned through this fabric collection, I mean, what I've learned from what's happening in the spring, it's just. It's such valuable information that I would have never, ever even otherwise given thought.

Dennis Scully (51:35)

To help me understand that better. So Hickory Chair, for example, what have you learned from partnering with Hickory Chair that's helped you in your business or even just how you think about the industry?

Kim Skodrow (51:45)

Oh, the level of detail that I think that a lot of people might suspect that you're like, this is a cute chair. Okay, let's put this in my collection. This is a cute chair. They don't understand that. And I don't mean that in a demeaning way. They don't understand. How would they understand? But. But you not only have to design the chair, you have to do all the CAD drawings of the chair, you have to. The pitch on the chair, the size of the leg of the chair, then the prototype has to be made. What goes into bringing a new SKU into the collection is just an unbelievable undertaking. So when someone like Ray, who just had his last.

Dennis Scully (52:29)

Ray Booth.

Kim Skodrow (52:29)

Yeah. How many pieces were there? A ton. I mean, so much work Ray had to do to do that. David has one coming. Anyone that, you know, the Hables, Suzanne Kastler, anyone that is doing any new product, even one piece, it is a lot of work. And I do think that sometimes people think, oh, you just think these things up, and then they just make it happen. And one of the biggest thrills was going into the showroom and seeing those craftspeople that made that piece of furniture and made that prototype. And I was there and they brought it out and they were so proud. I was so proud. I mean, it's incredible. And I think we take a lot of it for granted. And Hickory Chair is, I don't think that different than so many other brands that have been around for a while, care about their employees, care about the product that they're putting out there, and it's just lovely to be part of it. But what a learning experience, you know, I mean, you're in this industry all the time. Don't you learn something constantly good and bad?

Dennis Scully (53:38)

Well, exactly. And that's why, I mean, I love the story of Marriott Hines Gomez talking to you about photography and how that stuck with you. And then actually, you put that advice to work and it paid off for you in getting published.

Kim Skodrow (53:52)

It really does.

Dennis Scully (53:53)

And I'm always so curious, particularly for someone who came from outside of this industry, what you think is so important about what you've learned along the way? And if somebody was able to get you alone at High Point and ask you for some advice, what would you tell them?

Kim Skodrow (54:12)

Ah, that's a really good question, Dennis. Probably the best piece of advice I would give is don't get too big for your britches. Do not think that because you have one great client that that's it, you can. It's all going to come pouring in. Never give up working hard. Never, never give up working hard. Never dig your heels in so far that you can't get them out. And just always be open to learning. Because if you're not learning something every day, why bother if you're not getting excited every day about what your day looks like ahead? And I'm not saying it's really a fun time dealing with vendors who are delivering things that are damaged. But you need to find a highlight of every day to stay in this industry, because it sounds like it's this dramatic thing, but. And it's not. It's a lovely, fun industry to work in, but you give a lot of yourself. And I think that's true of any, any job or any career that you care about. And just be prepared to keep on giving. And you never, never rest. Never rest. It's never going to be easy. I think if you talk to the most seasoned designer, they will tell you they work as hard today as they did when they first started out, and that's why they're successful.

Dennis Scully (55:34)

Well, and to that point, Kim, I'm curious. How do you recharge? So you do give so much of yourself, and your point about you have to stay so enthusiastic, and yet the light fixture just showed up for the fifth time. Broken again. Right. And how many phone calls was it to get that light fixture? Every single time, and it's still broken. How do you find it in yourself? Or what gives you the support or the encouragement that you need?

Kim Skodrow (56:07)

Get involved. I mean, you can go. And you know this, Dennis. You can go to an industry event every night of the week. And I promise you, if you just make yourself go to a few, what you give, you will get in tenfold back to you, and it will excite you, and you will become re. Engaged. You will start a fabric collection.

Dennis Scully (56:28)

Is that what started this? You went to parties, and suddenly you said, I need the fabric collection.

Kim Skodrow (56:34)

I had my third martini, and I thought, guess what?

Dennis Scully (56:38)

You know, what the world needs is more. Yeah.

Kim Skodrow (56:42)

Yeah. I think it definitely stemmed from that need to dig deeper in a creative level that was a little bit different than just yes.

Dennis Scully (56:51)

Because it sounds like you needed the additional creative outlet of pouring yourself into a fabric collection.

Kim Skodrow (56:57)

I think you're absolutely. Yeah.

Dennis Scully (56:59)

Yes. Because sometimes just working as an interior designer is more draining than we care to think about.

Kim Skodrow (57:04)

Yes. Yes. Right? Yes. Yes. And until you and I just had this therapy session right now, I probably didn't realize that, but you're absolutely right. It was just. It was such. It's such an unbelievable passion, and I just. I love it so much, and, you know, give me pantone colors to look at and threads and, you know, all day long, and I'm just. I'm loving. And yeah, I think you're right. And I think it just re. Energizes everything. Everything. And that can't ever be a bad thing.

Dennis Scully (57:38)

Well, I'm eager to see this new collection. I can't wait to talk to you more about your showroom partner selection process and all of that.

Kim Skodrow (57:48)

Yeah. All fun stuff.

Dennis Scully (57:50)

All fun stuff coming up. It's a thrill to talk with you, Kim. Thank you so much.

Kim Skodrow (57:56)

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so, so much for having me on the show. I really, really do appreciate it.

Dennis Scully (58:03)

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast. Drop us a line at podcast podcast@businessofhome.com if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.