B (4:03)

Stop it.

C (4:04)

Is learning new tricks all the time.

B (4:07)

Just because you've been given the Legacy Award from the Institute of Classical Architecture.

C (4:13)

Yes. Well, I. I was thinking about changing my last name to Legacy.

B (4:18)

To Legacy, which I think is catchy. I think.

C (4:20)

I think it's Madeline Legacy. I think it's got. It's got a nice ring. I just. I wanted to make sure everyone knew that the award that was bestowed upon me did not mean in any way that I was bowing out or taking my leave or planning to hang up my shingle anytime soon. I'm still too passionate about what I do. Even after, I will admit, 30 years of doing okay. 37 years.

B (4:54)

Okay, 37 years.

C (4:56)

37 years. There it is. Okay.

B (4:59)

Okay. Make of that what you will.

C (5:01)

I'm proud to say that I still live to learn and to design and to use the knowledge I've acquired. What good would it do me if I just, you know, retired and started growing vegetables in my backyard? I've got still too much to explore and to have fun with.

B (5:23)

We should say that. So Mayor Russ of Architectural Digest and longtime editor in the industry, and Jason Ali Alexander, Seinfeld fans will know. Well, both were there to help honor you. And tell me about your relationship with both of those gentlemen.

C (5:43)

Well, Jason Alexander and his wife, Dana, title, who's a very accomplished artist now in her own right, they were early, early clients of mine. And the fact that I later ended up working for Larry David, who is essentially the George Costanza, you know, Persona. He. He became a client as well. And Jason and his wife were absolutely fabulous and maddening at the same time.

B (6:15)

Tell me more.

C (6:17)

Well, they. They bought a fantastic old English house in the Hancock park area of Los Angeles. And it was. Was their dream to, you know. Well, do I want to say this? Sure, I'll say it. Two Jews from the east coast who moved out to Los Angeles and wanted to create a kind of English environment for themselves. And I was very early in My career and I used to have meetings on a Saturday, and five or six hours later, we would still be discussing the various merits of a 19th century style of English sofa. And whatever they pushed me to find or discover or to embrace, I did. And we created this absolutely fantastic kind of old English country house environment. But it always had to have a twist. And Jason would have to have a cabinet that. It was like a cabinet of curiosities. It had to have little hidden things. And in the dining room, it could hold plates, but it could also hold a computer so that he could pull it out and work on his PlayStation. And we did a. There was a building in the back that was essentially like an old fashioned lodge. We designed a table in the Black Forest style that was a tree trunk, but it was a poker table, but it was also did tricks. And it had a carved bear that you could. That would attach itself to the trunk of this, of this carved table, but you could also pull it off if you didn't want the bear. And in fact, the sofa in this lodge, we found a way to put it on a hydraulic lift so that when they wanted to play charades, the sofa could lift off the floor, turn towards the fireplace and be lowered back onto the floor. But when people were playing pool or ping pong, the sofa could lift, turn the other direction and lower. And this really, this was insane and ludicrous and marvelous. And believe me, it pushed me to the, you know, to the end of both my patient and my talent. And it ended up being a marvelous house. And I was quite proud that the antiques we bought and the furniture we designed, it all felt good 30 years later. And that made me quite proud. And I had fired Dana and Jason as clients because they were, they were.

B (9:01)

Driving me, they were too demanding.

C (9:04)

Crazy things about a breakfast room chair. And so, you know, we, you know, left on moderately good terms, but I said, you know, we're done here. And then I was getting this award and I reached out to Jason and I said, there is nobody in the world I would rather have as the emcee. And he said, but I thought you fired us as clients. I said, but I didn't fire you as a friend.

B (9:29)

No, all is forgiven.

C (9:31)

I still adore you and Dana. And so sure enough, I got Jason to do that. I got Larry David and his fabulous wife Ashley to do a little video shtick for me. And then I got Mayor, who has been a friend and someone I revere, admire, adore. I got him to introduce this award for me. His talent is legendary. His snark is the testy tastemaker that he did, the testy tastemaker famous throughout the land. And so I was very grateful to have him at my investiture. So needless to say, I'm very proud that the ICA has awarded me this honor and I love doing things on their behalf. I have hosted the Shutsey Awards in Atlanta for four years running and maybe invited back and have made it a fun and funny.

B (10:36)

I'll bet that's fun. I'll bet you hosting that is really fun.

C (10:41)

It's. Let's just say it's not the same old, same old they were used to do with their Southern manners.

B (10:48)

And you've changed that dynamic quite a bit, I'm sure I have.

C (10:52)

I have. Including my four costume changes throughout the evening, which they. They. Let's just say that gets big. A big round of applause and I get a big kick out of it. And I have these outfits made. And, and why not?

B (11:07)

Why not?

C (11:08)

Why not? I wanted to be like Cher, you know, and. And Botox my face so that I can't express a single emotion or facial expression.

B (11:21)

Well, shall we tell people? I wanted to share what Mayor Russ wrote about you in the forward of your book, which I went back and was sifting through after our recent conversation because I thought it was so relevant to our conversation today. He very sweetly wrote at one point. Given the current state of the design world, where pop stars are held up as tastemakers and Pinterest scavengers masquerade as professional decorators, Madeleine's insistence on the old school virtues of design, artistry and craft is all the more refreshing. A that's a lovely thing to write and say, but also, I think, says so much about the level of work that you do, and I think also summed up in there are some things that you have strong feelings about as well.

C (12:19)

So. Well, that passage almost brings me to tears because he knows me so well and it encapsulates so much about what I believe and practice every day in my work. And not everybody wants to do it this way. I acknowledge that not everyone wants to reinvent the sofa with every project and strive never to use the same things twice, which I do. But there's so much to be explored in our world, our world of design, decorative arts, architecture, whether it's a, I don't know, a paint color or a light fixture. Why use the same thing twice when there are. There is a plethora of options and an abundance of inspiration everywhere you look. The only thing that holds me back is both my clients willingness to give me the time and the breadth to do what I love to do. And it doesn't mean it has to be more money. I don't want people to think that you just have to have a fantastic budget or a billionaire client to do things differently. You can find a marvelous chair in a vintage shop and reupholster it or repaint it. I happen to love the thrill of the hunt and the opportunity that presents itself every time you go out in the world and you see something new. It gives you an opportunity to try something new. So when I walk into a showroom and whether I'm looking for fabrics or what have you, they say, what are you looking for? I always say, I have no idea. I don't know until I see it. And when I find something new, that's a revelation for me. I love the French expression le mot just, which means the right word. My husband, who's a writer, applies it to the work he does. I use the phrase l' objez juste. The right object, the right thing. Finding that is like finding the proverbial needle in a haystack or, you know, the Holy Grail. And that is what gives me just a fantastic jolt. And it also means that my clients are going to have something that maybe not everybody else has. We see so much sameness in the design world today. And I could go on and on about this ad nauseam. Should you choose to be nauseated. I have that.

B (15:26)

Now's the time to take some Dramamine.

C (15:28)

As well as I carry on about.

B (15:31)

As Madeleine prepares to weigh in with her many thoughts on the subject of the sameness in design.

C (15:38)

I'm nothing if not opinionated, as anyone who knows me knows all too well. Look, we all. It can't be argued that we all see kind of the same thing over and over again. I cannot deny that one of my heroes, Frances Elkins, who was designing in the early. I think, late 20s, early 30s, 40s, she used Moroccan rugs throughout her career.

A (16:09)

Right.

C (16:10)

There is nothing new about a Moroccan rug, but they're timeless. And there are. There are elements like that that have been used throughout our history of. Of decorative design that come back like a. Some of them are like a bad penny, and some of them are, you know, are. Are meant to be revived and reinforced and reinvented and reinvigorated. And I think that's marvelous. I think my. My bone of contention is when things are just. Are just used to death, and they're. They're, you know, Exploited to the nth degree. And you just become so weary, so exhausted by seeing the same. The same notes being played over and over and over again. And I think as a designer, we have a responsibility to our clients and to ourselves to. To do things a little differently, to see things anew. And I think it keeps us as artists fresh. And I do think we have an artistry. I'm not going to compare myself to a fine artist or a fine painter or a sculptor or a composer, but there is an artistry involved in inventing a world for our clients to inhabit, for ourselves to inhabit. And I hope that everyone can be inspired to just look around the corner and peek under the covers of what everyone else is doing and see if you can't be. Just be invigorated by looking at the past and how that might inform your future of design and decorating.

A (18:00)

Yeah.

B (18:01)

So let's come back to the early days for you. We started this conversation rattling off some celebrity names, and you've worked with quite a few in part because grew up in the Hollywood world.

A (18:17)

Should we talk about that a little bit?

C (18:20)

My life as a showbiz kid and a Beverly Hills brat. I did grow up in a kind of show business environment. And my father was a writer, producer, director, documentarian is where he got his start. And he is really a New York intellectual who was transported to Hollywood. And he had worked with some very famous historians and knew the Kennedys and did documentaries about. About them. And then he went into features. And my origin story, if you will, is that I read a book and I. And I went to my father and I said, this, my favorite book. Would you make a movie about this book? And he and his producing partner, well, they did. And it was a little girl's dream come true. The movie was Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. I got a starring role. Well, all right, all right. To be honest, it wasn't a starring role. It was one line. It was. I got to play a kid in the classroom scene. And although it was a pivotal plot point in the movie, absolutely without question. And as a natural born actress, my father gave me this role knowing that I would just nail it. And the teacher says, madeline Durkin, how many Wonka bars did you eat? And normally it takes me a while to get into character and to really, you know, embody, because you're very method, the role. Very, very method. Strasberg, you know, Strasberg was, was a mentor of mine. And so I can't. We don't have the time here for me to really delve into that character. No, but I. I said. And with much more feeling than I'm going to do right now. I said about 100.

A (20:29)

Yeah.

C (20:30)

Thank you. Thank you. Yes. Round of applause.

B (20:34)

Yes. No, no. Please, everyone take their seats.

C (20:37)

Yes. No, really. Sit down.

B (20:39)

Sit down. Really?

C (20:40)

And. And that was pretty much the beginning and the end of my screen career. So I didn't even get a credit, but I did get a $50 finders fee, which, I admit I went out promptly and spent on candy. And for the rest of my life, I have. I have been just an absolute candy fiend. I got to spend six months living in Munich. I have a signed copy of my book Charlie and the Chocolate Factory by Roald Dahl that says, to Madeline, who started the whole thing, and I have incredible memories. I got to be a part of what is now my family's legacy, and I'm very proud of having played a part in that.

B (21:23)

So, dad, this incredible career, and mom was a decorator.

C (21:29)

My mother was a decorator. When they moved from New York, my father and his production company, Walfer Productions, they moved to New York. And I only found out later that they moved into the offices that were previously occupied by the great, legendary Billy Haynes. Right. William Haynes had his office on Sunset Boulevard, and it ultimately became my father's office. And they needed somebody to spruce them up. And so my mother became. She was incredibly stylish. Is incredibly stylish at 93. She still is. She still is my mother, for better or worse.

B (22:10)

Glad we cleared that up.

C (22:11)

Yeah. And very, very chic. And she whipped up some, you know, what have you for. For the offices. And it was such a success that she ended up working for people like Neil diamond and Alan Alda and the composers Marilyn and Alan Bergman. And she had great clients all over town. And, of course, that was the reason why I never wanted to be a decorator. Because the last thing a young girl wants to be. As her mother.

B (22:44)

As her mother. Exactly.

C (22:46)

So it was unthinkable that I should follow in my mother's footsteps. And we had a somewhat contentious relationship when I was just a rebellious teenager. And it wasn't. I tried all sorts of potential careers to be anything other than what my mother was and is. So I tried. I wanted to go into the record business, so I got my father to fund me into buying a collection of rare and collectible records that I oversaw. And I was incredibly successful at running that business straight into the ground. I was a total failure.

B (23:32)

What was the hope for that business? What was the Record collection.

C (23:35)

There was no hope, there was no dream, There was just misguided. I loved listening to the music, but I didn't, you know, that's not where my heart laid. So I, I thought maybe I'd go into the record business. But I didn't pass the typing test at Capitol Records. And so that didn't work out. I thought maybe I would go back to school and become a psychologist or a therapist, which would serve me very well in my current profession. But I didn't really want to go back to school. So I had a great friend, one of my oldest friends who recommended me. She knew I had some style and my mother was a designer and she recommended me to this young kid. His name was Ed Solomon and he had just written Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, went on to write Men in Black. Very talented young screenwriter. He was living in an apartment with a futon on the floor and what they used to call a Barcalounger, which was one of those chairs that, you know, somebody's grandparents had that, you know, was a modern day recliner. And I gave him a super sexy bachelor pad. And he recommended me to this one and that one and that one and this one. And as I like to say, I was passed around young Hollywood like a hash pipe. And that was the start of my career. A star was born. So I worked for all of these young Hollywood Turks in, in the industry and young agents and writers and directors and producers. And I went to the Trial by Fire University, which I do not recommend. I still rue the fact that I never went to work for a well established designer. And so I went out and learned the hard way. And it took me way too many years to understand Chinese furniture or Japanese screens or things that I learned by dint of reading magazines and collecting books and learning from other great designers. And it was a process of self edification. It was by dint of hard work and study that I learned what I learned. But I think had I gone to work for someone, that would have been transmitted to me by people who really knew their craft and knew what they were doing. And it's a shortcut to developing your own style.

A (26:25)

We're taking a quick break to remind you about Sixpenny. Imagine for just a moment having a state of the art furniture brand as your very own bespoke manufacturer.

B (26:34)

Imagine the look your clients will give.

A (26:36)

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B (27:26)

Well, and I wonder from the business side as well, how long were you just doing it by yourself? And how long before you started to really put a firm in place? And how did you learn about doing that and charging and what the fee structure should be and all of that?

C (27:47)

I will just say to your readers right now that I still have no idea what the fee structure should be.

B (27:53)

That is still a work in progress at the Madeline Stewart offices.

C (27:56)

Can I tell you, I wish that there was just a standard. Yes, you know, a standard way of charging clients. I think every designer struggles with. Is it hourly? Is it hourly plus a commission? Is the commission this percent? Is it a flat fee? Is it a sliding scale? I honestly do think that is something that bedevils all designers because everybody does it differently and there is no kind of generalized bottom line of fee structure within our industry. But I will say the one thing that differed for me and my mother was not a dilettante. She had a business and it was, she had partners and she, she developed different businesses along the way. But it was not the business that it is for me because my mother was, you know, for a certain period, she was still married to my father. So she was, you know, they would go to parties, she would give dinner parties, they would go to Europe, they would go to screenings, they would go to the Cannes Film Festival. And her job was not her major source of income or she had a family, she had other responsibilities. So she did take her career seriously. But for me, this is a profession. This is a business, and I run it like a business. And I suggest to all of your younger listeners, you have to run this like a business. You can't just be a decorator who flits about and finds beautiful things. And you have to be a business person and you have to have structure in your business and you have to be impeccably honest and you have to be capable of standing for a level of professionalism that is requisite in this world. Because there are too many people who have not been as honest or as honorable or as forthright or as forthcoming. And. And I would be standing with a client in an antique store, and they would say in front of the client, do you want me to quote your price or our retail price? And I would say, I have no secrets. I'm fully transparent. My clients know what the price is. They also know what my percentage is. I will say it was partially Dana and Jason, my beloved longtime clients, who taught me the benefit of charging by the hour or charging some kind of time billing, because Dana loved the process. And guess what? I learned a lot. I don't regret that at all. But it also taught me that some clients, they want to see every blue velvet that has been manufactured here and abroad. And if that is your client and you know that's who your client is, you need to be compensated. And so we've come to some kind of happy medium where the clients know that we spend the time we need to and we don't spend any more time.

A (31:22)

Let's talk about your aesthetic and how.

B (31:25)

You think about the work that you do and how you approach it. You were talking earlier about the care and the time and the thought and.

A (31:35)

The research and the depth and all of that, and Mayor Russ was referring to that as well. But.

B (31:41)

But tell me how you approach your work and how you think about it.

C (31:45)

I usually mostly confer with my books. I have an extensive library. I love books about Ottoman embroidery. It could be Japanese screens. It could be Spanish ironwork. It could be Arts and crafts furniture. Whatever it is, we find a way in. We find a way in to a project. It might be based on the location. It might be based on the architecture, whether it exists or whether it's being built. It might be based on a client's experience in the world or their passions. I go to my books for inspiration. When I was approached to do a house in the arts and crafts style, well, I wanted to learn about arts and crafts, architecture, and I knew some, but I didn't know everything. So I bought books on Greene and Greene, and I bought books on William Morris, and I bought books on Swedish arts and crafts and English arts and Crafts and furniture and textiles and architecture. And I wanted to immerse myself in that world just so that I developed a vocabulary for that style. I wanted to be able to have a knowledge and a language that I felt comfortable with so that I could not, you know, borrow, steal, interpret, so that when it came time to design, I don't know, some, you know, wall paneling or find Hardware or find light fixtures. I had enough knowledge that I felt confident in selecting things that reflected that time, even if it wasn't a straightforward piece of LJ G. Stickley furniture. But I could reference that knowledge that I'd acquired and that vocabulary that we'd established to create my own interpretation of that style. So my client, he loved that I once said, I want to be referential and not reverential. And that became our slogan, our motto for this project. When I got a project in Nantucket, I didn't know much about Nantucket style and architecture. I haven't spent time there. So, again, the books come out, the references are made. So not that were just going to reproduce what was there and do everything in, you know, blue and white and get those, you know, start collecting those silly baskets. Maybe not silly beautiful, but beautiful, but also beautiful, you know, Nantucket, you know, baskets and. And whale. What do they call them? The. What are those things on the top of a house?

B (34:55)

Weather veins.

A (34:56)

Weather.

C (34:56)

Vanessa cut.

B (35:00)

Yes, A weather vane.

A (35:01)

There you go.

C (35:01)

Yes, a weather vein. Of course, a weather vein. But, you know, we. We started to kind of inculcate ourselves into Nantucket aesthetic and vibe. And that was fun, and it was unique to that project. It didn't look like another project. That's my passion, and it's my pleasure. So explore different references, explore different ideas, especially from the past, and how the past influences what we do now. I look to the past to see the future. I want to reinterpret the past, to be contemporary. I know that, you know, Kelly Wurstler does the same thing, and she does it. She does it brilliantly. She looks back to the 70s or the, you know, or the 60s or 70s or 80s, to come up with her own version of that, of that aesthetic and that period. And that's so much a part of what she has done with, you know, her. Her look and her style. And you. I admire that. And when I did a house that was based on a streamlined, modern, decorative style, that's what I wanted to explore, but also bring it into the present. You know, we're not creating rooms for the Met. We live in a contemporary age and space and time. I just don't want to do things that feel of a period. I don't want my interiors to be carbon dated. And I fear that sometimes when people look back on what is so au courant now, it's going to be with a bit of chagrin at how kind of dated it looks. All those bedspreads that, you know, puddle onto the floor and trip you in the middle of the night when you get up to go to the Loop, you know, because there's, you know, two extra yards of fabric. You know, is that something we're going to look back on in one year, in four years, in 10 years, and say, oh, my gosh, is that something.

B (37:22)

You'Re very conscious of in not wanting the work that you do to have a timestamp?

C (37:29)

Absolutely. I think that's what drives most of my work, is that it needs to be authentic, but it needs to be authentic to the time, to the client, to their life, to the architecture. I loathe pretension. I loathe interiors that are created for and by the designer to reflect their own aesthetic and their own lifestyle. At the end of the day, of course, the aesthetic's been driven by my knowledge, by my experience, by my understanding of. Of architecture, decorative arts, design, art history, everything. But the house has to belong to those clients, and they have to feel at home in their home. And it can't solely be a reflection of my instincts and my desires. It has to look like their house. And to me, there's nothing worse than looking in someone's book or a magazine, and it reflects nothing about the people that live there. I don't ever want my clients to wake up and look around and say, you know, why do we have that? Or, I never liked that table and she made us buy it, and dang it, I still don't like it. You know, this is a decision we make together in concert and respecting how they live and how they want to live. And sure, it's filtered through my lens, and they may never thought of doing something this way or the other, but if they do, then we're going to do it. If they don't, we're not going to do that. So I think that's really. That's also an important lesson for young designers to really. You've got to listen to your clients. Not the ones who have really bad taste, but the ones don't listen to them. Don't listen to them because they have really bad taste. And, you know, some people, they don't want to meet you halfway, in which case they're not great clients. I want everyone to work for great clients. The ones that do want to learn and enjoy the process. And this is not a combat sport, and it shouldn't be treated like one. And I've had clients like that who want to win every point, who want to, like, drive you into submission and show you that they're in Charge and be the boss. And that's not fun for a anybody. And it's certainly not a project that I am going to want to work on. So those clients either, you know, they end up being fired or they just, you know, we both realize that this is not meant to be. And like the guys you dated along the way or the women who, you know, who didn't work out, we're not always meant for one another. And if you have a client who you feel is combative and aggressive and fighting to get their way, bow out. Because it's never going to get better, and it's only going to be painful. And I had a client that was so mean and so demanding and so disrespectful. And I worked for her for a long time because I didn't want her to win. I didn't want her to think that she had the power over me and that she made me quit and that would make me look weak. And she could say to her Hollywood friends, oh, Madeline couldn't cut it. Oh, Madeline just, you know, walked away. And you know what? I should have walked away.

B (41:45)

And did you know right away that she was that way? Did you. Could you tell right away that she was going to be that way?

C (41:50)

You know, pretty soon, you know, soon enough. Yeah, you know, soon enough. The signs are there. And I chose. I chose to stick it out. I just stick it out. I can be. I can. I can be this woman at her own game. And you know what? You can't. You can't. Because some people, as I once said to another client, I've had some real doozies in my career. And all designers have. Sure, designers have. You've had the good, the bad, and the ugly.

A (42:22)

Yes.

C (42:23)

I once said to a client, you are so committed to your own personal unhappiness that I can't continue. Because nothing is ever going to make this client happy, satisfied, gratified. She is just happy to be unhappy. And I think that's something that it takes time to learn. And for all the young designers out there, don't take the time to learn it. Trust me, it's not going to end well. You've got to walk away.

A (42:55)

Well. And one of the challenges in the.

B (42:58)

Community that you work in a lot Hollywood, it's a tightly knit group, and they all seem to know each other. Each other, and they. All right. And so.

C (43:06)

And I don't work for as many Hollywood people now because, let's face it, they're all crazy. So I, you know, my. Most of the People I work with now come from the world of, you know, business and finance and, and money and, and that's a great client to have the ones with money. But that's also a tight knit group.

A (43:31)

Yes.

C (43:31)

And I, I have worked for, you know, right now I'm working for one client who knows five of my other clients and believe me, I keep that in mind. I also wonder how you know, when you do work in a tight knit community. And there was someone also from Los Angeles who shall go unnamed, but Barbara Barry worked for so many people in town. And I would see time and time again some of the same pieces in all these various clients homes. And I always wondered, what do those clients think when they walk into their best friend's house or you know, a dinner party at someone else's house and they see the same light fixture or the same fabrics or the same rugs? Doesn't it look as though the designer didn't, they didn't take the time to make something unique or that it was, they bought it cheaper by the dozen or that it's just more expedient to just keep going back to the same well and getting the same water. So I don't know, I always keep that in mind, that everybody knows each other. It's a very small world. And the last thing you want is for somebody to walk into someone else's house and, and think that they got something unique for their home and to see it writ large in a house that their designer did for someone else.

A (45:07)

We're taking a quick break to remind you about Ernesta. Designers know that proportions make all the difference. And that difference starts with Ernesta. Find a custom size rug that elevates your vision. When you join Ernesta's trade program, you'll receive dedicated one on one support, preferred pricing and unlimited samples curated for your project. To apply for membership to Ernesto's trade program or to learn more, visit ernesta.com boh and now back to the show.

B (45:46)

So you jokingly say that you, you moved on from a lot of the celebrity clients because they were a little too crazy. But I mean, are celebrity clients, are they fun? Do they, do they bring an element of excitement? Or do you sometimes think, oh, this project will get published because it's got this name attached to it or that.

A (46:06)

Or does that not really matter to you so much anymore?

C (46:09)

That doesn't matter to me. And I think there are so many celebrity clients that I have that would never wish to be named in a publication. That's not what drives me. There are Designers who want to work for celebrities because they want to be associated with that famous person. I did work for Lindsey Buckingham of Fleetwood Mac, and he was a wonderful client, and his wife at the time was very much interested in being featured, and so she was on the COVID of Town and Country, and their house appeared in Town and Country, and that was something they were willing to do, and that was good for them both, I guess, or for her. But a lot of my clients. And I have to say, I think things are a little different today because there's so many people who are famous because they're influencers or they're exposed to the world in a way that they. They crave that celebrity. They crave that publicity. They want to be featured and seen as larger than life. Those are not my clients, and that's okay. And look, I've had fabulous times working for a lot of those people, and, yes, they're crazy. And that's what makes it fun, and that's what makes it exciting and that. I remember when I went out the very first time to San Francisco to shop for antiques with Jason again, you know, because this was 30 years ago and a height of his fame on Seinfeld. And I remember Dana saying to me, you know, don't be surprised when people stop Jason in the street. And I thought, oh, my God, this woman has such an inflated sense of her husband's celebrity. Well, if we weren't stopped, you know, a thousand times, you know, whether it was on the plane or in the street or in a cab or in the antique store or walking or at a restaurant, those, you know, you have no idea what it's like to be that famous until you're with someone that famous. And, you know, when people are at the height of their, you know, notoriety or celebrity or, you know, visibility, and all of a sudden, you realize that the entire world knows who they are. It's pretty heady stuff, but it also does things to their. To their mind and their sense of self. And, you know, it's something to be both admired, feared, to be sure.

B (49:03)

And I think it can have quite an effect on people. I know that in today's media world, it is often a ticket to getting a project published or to getting that level of exposure. And it sounds to me like that's.

A (49:24)

Not nearly as important to you, if.

B (49:26)

In fact, it ever was that important to you. I'm not really sure of that either.

C (49:30)

You know, it was early on, and my very first project that saw the light of day in print was in El Decor I am eternally grateful to Marianne McAvoy and Margaret Russell for putting me in the magazine. And my client had a. She had a last name that was very well known. Her father was quite famous, and they tried every which way to put her in the magazine. They wanted this project, which I'm still insanely proud of all these years later. They wanted her name to be associated with this house. And the client said absolutely no. Thank goodness they published the story anyway, because the client both was generous enough to want that for me and, you know, and the project was good enough that it didn't need a famous name attached, I'm proud to say. But I understand why for magazines, they feel celebrity sells issues. And in a day and age, as we're in now, where the magazines are thinner and thinner and desperate for readership, a celebrity can sell. Sure. Put so and so on the COVID And if they have a huge Instagram following or, you know, people recognize that name and want to see how and where they live, then by all means, I understand why they do it. I just wish it wasn't so. Design should be a meritocracy, and it shouldn't be because you do a house for Kim Kardashian. It shouldn't be about that. It should be about beauty, excellence, architecture, wit, charm, elegance. It should not be because so and so lives there. And that is kind of a bummer to me. I think that's sad. AD always had, you know, a Hollywood issue, and maybe it was Liza's house or maybe it was Humphrey Bogart's house, if anyone out there knows who that is. But I just think we should focus on the work, the quality of the work. That should be how interiors are judged. In the same way we judge films, we judge. You know, there are people who review work of artists professionally. We don't have that in our industry.

A (52:10)

And why is that, do you think? Why isn't there design criticism?

B (52:14)

I mean, because we talk about this.

A (52:15)

All the time, Madeline.

B (52:17)

Where. Where is this?

A (52:19)

Why can no one just write? And.

B (52:21)

And, I mean, Mayor Russ is one of the people that comes to mind. Like Mayor.

C (52:25)

He used to.

B (52:26)

He used to.

C (52:27)

He used to.

B (52:27)

The testy tastemaker used to be quite opinionated about this project or that project.

A (52:32)

I get it.

B (52:33)

He's in a different kind of position now, and he can't be as outspoken as he once was in his. In his youth. But I don't. I mean, I understand commercially, it's hard.

A (52:47)

For El Decor or AD to have.

B (52:50)

Someone on staff who's. Who's not going to worry about an advertiser and just say whatever they want.

A (52:56)

But somebody needs to be out there saying, you know, here's great work and.

B (53:01)

Why, and take a look at it.

A (53:04)

And I don't know, maybe. Maybe it's you, Madeline. Maybe you want to step into that role.

C (53:09)

As I said, I am nothing but opinionated. So I, in my own, you know, my own little way, I put out my design crimes on my Instagram stories, and I point out things that I think are truly criminal. Sometimes it's architecture, sometimes it's design, sometimes it's interior architecture, sometimes it's fashion. And if I didn't have this pesky day job, I would do that all day long, because I am one to call out the fact that the emperor has no clothes when it is appropriate. And I once spoke to the fabulous, incredibly talented Dara Caponigro, who now produces the beautiful Frederick magazine and is the design director for Schumacher. And we were at a luncheon, and I told her about my design crimes, and she said, if only I thought I could get away with publishing them in the magazine. I said, I'll do it. I'll do it. I'm too old to care about what people think about me. And that's both true and not true. But when I decide to retire, that's when I will write my own version of the Testy Tastemaker and I will lay it on the line, because, can I tell you, I feel like I'm one of those people, and this is so narcissistic and egotistic, but my father had perfect pitch, musically. I feel like I have perfect pitch when it comes to design. I mean, people are. I can see them rolling their eyeballs and snickering as they. As they hear this. But I truly believe that I have a kind of perfect pitch when it comes to the good, the bad, and the ugly. And so it would give me endless hours of amusement to do this in my dotage and publish it as it.

B (55:19)

Would give the world. Madeleine.

A (55:21)

As it would give the world were.

B (55:23)

You to do that. So I can't wait for you to hang up.

A (55:26)

Can you wrap up these projects that.

B (55:28)

You'Re working on now? Can you let the staff know this? We've got a couple years left, and.

C (55:34)

Then I'm gonna publish the design crime. And it will be a series. It won't just be one book. It will be like an anthology. There will be many volumes. I cannot wait.

B (55:46)

I can't wait. The world can't wait. I mean, that's.

C (55:50)

That's the Thing, people can wait.

B (55:51)

They're gonna hear this episode and they're just gonna be, when is this happening? When is this coming? Because, I mean, and I don't know, and I love that you used the word loathe earlier when you were talking about sort of people's own selves not coming through in a project. But I mean, what comes to mind for you?

A (56:09)

Design, crime wise?

B (56:11)

You know, you've talked about scavenger decorators in the past, and I don't know if. I don't know if you want to explain what that is and your take there, but, I mean, what's top of mind for you?

C (56:23)

Well, to me, scavenger decorating is about scrolling through a bunch of Pinterest images and just culling whatever you find and throwing it into a pot and serving it up to a client and with very little thought or interest or inspiration or originality. That's my definition of scavenger decorating. I think too many people kind of. Well, and everyone complains about beige and greige and lack of this, that or the other, and yet it seems like that's what everybody's doing. And. And, you know, people are afraid to be maximalist, or they're afraid to be minimalist, or they're afraid, you know, they're just kind of constrained by their own lack of imagination. And I think, you know, we were talking previously about somebody like Martin Brudnitsky and how he has fully embraced this maximalistic layer upon layer, you know, fabric upon fabric, pattern upon pattern aesthetic, which he does in a way that is so personal to him.

A (57:46)

Yes.

C (57:47)

He's not merely absorbing the work of, you know, Tony Duquette or this one or that one or somebody from another period. He's taken all that, surely. But he's an original. And Miles Red, he does what he does, whether you like it or not, he's an original. It may not be to everyone's taste, but he does it with a sure hand and a knowledge of what he likes, and he's not afraid. And I think so many people are afraid to be themselves or speak their mind. It's about trying to find your own voice as a designer. And that does take time. And it's not easy to be fearless. And so I always applaud the designers who are fearless. And I'm not saying I am by any means, but the ones that are, they know who they are and we know who they are, and it's something to be respected, even if you don't appreciate the work. But I think we need to get right now, I feel like we're in a bit of a rut and it's a rut of sameness. And I think it would be, it would, it would benefit design and humanity to move on. Move on, move on already. I do think there's something to be said for a basic education in design. And in the same way an abstract expressionist still needed to learn how to draw a figure and a line and a tree and a profile, and then they could become Franz Kline or Jackson Pollock. But they knew how to draw. Great composers learned from Bach and Beethoven and Mozart, even if they became John Cage or Philip Glass. I feel the same with design. You should know who Nancy Lancaster is and her yellow room. Whether you emulate it, despise it, think it's silly or has no reference to your own aesthetic. You should know who Jean Michel Frank was, who Francis Elkins was, who Dorothy Draper was, and who some of the more current, you know, John Fowler, you know, Albert Hadley, these people who really developed a style that we're still emulating and, let's face it, copying today, whether.

B (60:28)

We know it or not. And that's the thing, I feel like people don't know the reference and don't even realize that they're emulating Nancy Lancaster or John Fowler or some of the other names or Jean Michel Franche.

C (60:39)

You know, when rappers and hip hop artists, they'll take a beat or they'll take a, you know, accent from a song that maybe the people who are listening to it now don't, don't recognize. But I know that that came from a, you know, from something that somebody did 30 years ago. Even a hip hop artist or a rap star is looking to the past to influence their music today at. God, I sound like such an old woman.

B (61:11)

She used to be in the record business, did I mention?

C (61:13)

Yeah, right. Like something they call hip hop or rap music. Heaven help me. Anyway, the point being that we are all influenced by the past whether we know it or not. So take a minute to know what you're referencing. Look at how some of these designers could combine incredibly modern art and furniture with, you know, with a French 18th century chair or put it in cowhide. Or look at how they were able to combine antiques and modern lighting and Renaissance artwork. You know, when I look at somebody like Jean Grange, who is, you know, one of my all time heroes, and, and I look at work he did 50 years ago, and I say, that is fresh, that is chic, that is now, that is wow. That is something that stands the test of time. Can I say that about what someone is doing today or what I'm doing today? I want to be able to say that about my own work. That to me is the greatest achievement of a designer's legacy. That you can look back at something and not have it be cringe worthy. I wish that for all designers. So anyway, I'm just an old battle axe blathering along and you know, I feel like I'm on a soapbox, you know, in Central park, just either preaching to the choir or. Or preaching to no one who's out there listening.

B (63:03)

I think you're driving the message home. Last thing before we get to the lightning round. And since I spoke to you last, I went back and re watched All About Eve because you mentioned about Phoebe being named after Phoebe at the end of that movie. And I'm so glad that I did. And it got me thinking about so many. And you and I talked recently about just some great old movies. Something that I feel not enough people are taking advantage of is going back and watching the great Myrna Loy and William Powell movies or the great Cary Grant movies. But I mean, tell me about how you think about that. And are there any that come to mind that are just sort of great design films?

C (63:48)

Oh, I. Absolutely. And there is no question but that my taste and my aesthetic was driven by watching old movies. And I know this is hard to believe, but I was incredibly unpopular as a kid and I was quite a loser in the day. And my friend Nicole and I would stay at home on Friday and Saturday nights and we would watch old movies and be captivated by the movies of the 30s and 40s and what have you. And I learned about design from watching the old MGM movies that were where the most of the art direction and set design was done by Cedric Gibbons, the famous art director for the MGM studios who was the one who invented the statue of the Oscar statuette and his. Whose home I was able to restore a home that he designed for himself. Anyway, he's one of my idols. And if you happen to catch a film that is one of the old MGM musicals starring Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers, he did all their movies. So whether it was the wizard of Oz or a Fred Astaire movie or Pride and Prejudice or anytime you see a film where he has reinterpreted or the art. Whatever art director of whatever film they have either reinterpreted rooms of the past, rooms of the present time in which the movie was made, or rooms of the future in which they're envisioning what's going to happen many years down the road. So there's a room in north by Northwest, James Mason, the villain's lair. And it's a great Hitchcock film with Cary Grant. Such a great movie, Such a fabulous film. And when you look at his. The living room in this film, there is nothing you would change today. It looks so chic and so timeless. Everything in that room, the lamps, the lampshades, the furniture, you know, it represents the time, but it also feels so au courant and there are so many films like that. So I watch Chinatown for the interiors, if not the incredible performances by Jack Nicholson and Faye Dunaway and John Huston. Watch any film of the past and understand the world in which they were trying to create, you know, in the film. And then that might inform the way you're trying to, you know, create a room or a molding or a, you know, a staircase. Anything that might be informed by old movies. So, yes, I love old films. And with All About Eve being way there at the top. And the sets from My Man Godfrey.

B (66:55)

Oh, My Man Godfrey. We were talking about that the other day.

C (66:58)

At the top of my list of so divine. Height of 1930s style and glamour. Okay, what's next?

B (67:08)

Okay, lightning round. Here we go. Ready?

C (67:10)

Oh, no.

B (67:10)

Okay.

C (67:11)

I hope so.

B (67:12)

Most overrated. Color in design.

C (67:15)

Grayish.

B (67:16)

One item in the room that should never be cheaped out on or you should never skimp on spending on.

C (67:22)

Sofa.

B (67:23)

Sofa.

C (67:24)

Everyone says sofa, but it's true.

B (67:27)

Least glamorous part of your job, deciding.

C (67:30)

On which side the toilet paper holder should go on. Left or right.

B (67:34)

And where do you come down? Does it depend on the person being left handed, right handed or.

C (67:38)

Yeah, it's something you actually have to ask of the client. It's not. It's not a glamorous moment, I assure you.

B (67:47)

And what's. What's more dangerous, Pinterest or TikTok?

C (67:51)

Pinterest.

B (67:52)

Yeah.

C (67:52)

And I say that only because I've never been on TikTok. It's not just because I'm an old fogey. It's because I don't trust myself. Instagram is enough of a rabbit hole for me. And I re. Everyone says if you went on TikTok, you would. You'd never leave the house. So it's out of self preservation and my work ethic that I don't go on TikTok, but I would say Pinterest because really, when I have had people in my office, when we're looking at it it's deadly dull and it's nothing you'd want to emulate.

B (68:34)

Yeah, good point. Okay, dinner party with three design icons. Who's at your table?

C (68:40)

Oh, Frances Elkins, Jacques Grange, and probably. Oh, that's so hard.

A (68:48)

That's so hard.

B (68:48)

As she turns around to admire her design library.

C (68:52)

You know, it's probably between Jean Michel Frank and Albert Hadley.

B (68:57)

Okay, Okay. I like it. I like it. A well designed room should always.

C (69:06)

Should always eschew recessed lighting. Mm. Or if you wanna put it in a more positive light, a well designed room should always have sconces, ceiling fixtures and lamps. And as few or as little recessed lighting as possible.

B (69:29)

Okay, good one. Finally. What would your.

C (69:33)

No, not finally. I wanna do this all day so I don't have to go back to work. Cause this is so much fun. Okay. Finally.

B (69:40)

Okay, finally. Well, listen, I've got a lot more. I mean, so I'm gonna throw you a couple more. So design pet peeve that you will never get over. And I know you've got many design.

A (69:50)

Pet peeves, so I mean, hit me right now.

C (69:53)

It's that damn draped bedspread that is all over the ground.

B (69:58)

What with that?

C (70:00)

I know. I mean it looks great in a photo, but you know darn well that the people, the minute the photo shoot is over, they take that thing off. Because there's no question but that they would trip over it in the middle of the night and break their leg, if not a hip. So that is truly one of my pet peeves. The other is the kitchen waterfall island. The marble waterfall island. Enough is enough.

B (70:29)

Enough of the marble waterfall island.

A (70:32)

Okay.

B (70:34)

I was reading where you had gotten irate about cabinets that were designed to cover the fridge, but they sort of look cabinet handles. And you just went off about that. Who knows what will just set you off?

C (70:46)

Honestly, almost anything. Almost anything. You know, I've come. I've come to terms with the panelized refrigerator.

B (70:56)

Have you?

C (70:56)

It's not my preference because to me you're not fooling anyone. You're in a kitchen, there's going to be a refrigerator, let's face it. So I'm of the mind that you should just understand it's a kitchen respect that there's going to be a refrigerator and not go out of your way to hide it. I understand that there are occasions when, and perhaps I've come around to this and perhaps this is a sign of maturation once again.

B (71:28)

The growth that.

C (71:29)

Madeline Stewart, older adviser that it is, is something to be considered. What I will never Ever get over are cabinets that stop 2 to 3 to 4 inches from the ceiling where unless you have a side gig as a dust collector where you collect dust.

B (71:52)

What are you doing up there for fun and profit?

C (71:55)

What is going on up there that you would not want your cabinets to just go the extra 3 inches or 2 inches to meet the ceiling so that you don't have to be concerned about dust collection? That truly I will never get over that.

A (72:12)

I am.

B (72:12)

I am with you there. And I want to talk to the people who are collecting dust for fun and profit. I want to meet. I want to meet those people. So finally. Oh, one more before I get to the final one. So design books, you've got a million of them behind you. You always do. Is there a favorite? Is there a handful of favorites that you just go to again and again?

A (72:35)

Tell me.

C (72:37)

Well, this is going to sound so. Just so highfalutin and kind of, just kind of gross, but I'm gonna answer truthfully.

A (72:53)

Okay.

B (72:53)

Okay. Finally we're gonna get some.

C (72:55)

Yeah. Because none of my other answers have been honest. But quite truthfully. One of my great passions is Spanish Revival and Hispano Moreesque architecture. And I grew up in a Spanish Revival house and I live in a Spanish Revival house. And I have restored many Spanish Revival homes. And so that style and aesthetic is really a great passion of mine. So my most dog eared books are those that were written in the 1920s by Mildred and Alfred Stapley Bynes. The Bynes. And they wrote all these books and all of the photographs that they took. And the drawings have been my lodestar, my north star, my guiding light for almost everything I've ever done in that design aesthetic. And all of my books on Spanish design and architecture are the ones that in a fire I would probably grab.

B (74:07)

Okay, okay.

C (74:08)

But that's just for me. I would encourage anyone to find what they're most passionate about, whatever that is. It could be design from the 1960s or the 70s, or furniture from the 30s, whatever it is. And find your inspiration through those worlds, through the past, into the present.

B (74:32)

So finally, what would your younger self be surprised to know about your career today?

C (74:41)

That I have developed the knowledge and the confidence that I now have in what I do, that I am no longer a travesty of a mockery of a fraud who was just kind of winging it. And by sheer bravado and by sure dint of my determination, kind of like not faking my way through, but trying to establish myself as somebody who knew what they wanted to know. And now I don't know it all. I have so much to learn. But I think my younger self would be surprised to know how confident and self assured and secure in the knowledge that I am as my older self. So let it be heard around the land that to thine own self be true, be authentic.

B (75:45)

I like the thought of that Your, your younger self would, would be impressed with your, with your, with your confidence and, and, and how you've, how you've evolved and, and grown.

A (75:56)

Right.

B (75:56)

And I think I, I wish that for, for all of us, that we will all evolve and grow and hopefully grow wiser and kinder.

C (76:04)

And kinder.

A (76:06)

Right?

C (76:06)

And kinder.

A (76:07)

Yes.

C (76:07)

Yeah.

A (76:08)

Yeah.

B (76:08)

Well, Madeline, sadly I have to let you go and you do have to.

A (76:13)

Get back to work.

C (76:14)

Yeah, I gotta get back to work.

B (76:16)

Yeah, you gotta get back to work. But you've made it very fun for us. So I'm, I'm grateful to you for that and I, and I thank you for making the time and a pleasure to chat with you as always.

C (76:24)

Well, Dennis, it was my pleasure, truly, and an honor, honor to be on your podcast. And if anyone learned anything, I will be, I'll be just delighted.

A (76:39)

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line@podcastusinessofhome.com if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.