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Business of Home Podcast
Nick Olsen is proud to call himself a decorator
00:59:03
The celebrated designer shares the story of his career
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- [00:04]
Dennis Scully
This is Business of Home. I'm your host Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking to leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is Nick Olson, a former protege of design legend Miles Red. Nick has built a thriving career blending classical references with bold colors, playful patterns and a signature sense of wit. His work is a masterpiece masterclass in making traditional interiors feel fresh, dynamic and full of personality.
- [00:39]
Nick Olson
I spoke with Nick about how his.
- [00:40]
Dennis Scully
First apartment ended up on the COVID.
- [00:42]
Nick Olson
Of Domino, why he proudly calls himself.
- [00:46]
Dennis Scully
A decorator, and why despite all the pressure to build a social media following, he's perfectly content not being the next Instagram star.
- [00:57]
Miles Red
Foreign.
- [01:03]
Dennis Scully
This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta, your destination for designer quality custom size rugs with a curated assortment of timeless colors, patterns and textures. Ernesta will deliver the right size rug in the style your client wants in only two to four weeks. And with Ernesta's exclusive trade membership benefits, you can get dedicated support, free unlimited samples and special discounts to help you achieve your clients design goals. To join Ernesto's trade program visit ernesto.com BOH this podcast is also sponsored by Krypton Designers looking for a premier domestic upholstery vendor that offers concierge service, complementary crypton fabric samples and dedicated project assistants are invited to explore Row Furniture's exceptional trade program. Customize your perfect piece with crypton fabrics in an array of stunning colors and styles, seamlessly blending beauty, durability and comfort. With Rose Trade program, you can anticipate a truly stress free experience. Each piece of furniture is meticulously hand inspected and photos of your customized orders are sent before shipping, ensuring you stay informed without any hassle. And pricing includes freight to your receiver, simplifying the ordering process. For more information about the program, visit rowfurniture.com join and now on with the show.
- [02:42]
Nick Olson
So much of your career begins with this now famous letter that you send to Miles Red. Let's tell that story and how that part of your career began.
- [02:58]
Miles Red
Ah, the letter. Yes. So I was at a crossroads in my post educational life and career and I had just earned a very expensive and illustrious undergraduate degree.
- [03:15]
Nick Olson
Very impressive degree.
- [03:17]
Miles Red
Yes, I had graduated from Columbia University with a Bachelor's in Architecture with the firm knowledge that I would not be an architect. And I was working at a magazine for a former professor of mine named Suzanne Stevens who is fabulous, was fabulous and I was an editorial assistant, basically you know, an intern, but also given the opportunity to write some things for the magazine and I thought this could be my career I could be a journalist now and, you know, forget architecture. But I had this lingering memory in my mind of this magazine article that I'd seen on an interior decorator named Miles Red. And it just, it kept me up at night, the photos, the text. And I just thought, well, he's got, he's got it figured out. He's young, he's successful, he has this beautiful house, he's charming. Like, this is who I want to, you know, sort of model myself after in my, like post college life. So flash forward again to my internship. They just weren't going to hire me full time, which is fine. You know, they didn't have the budget for another full time editor. And I thought, well, what have you got to lose? Why don't you reach out to that person in the W article, Miles Red. He lives in and works in Manhattan. Kind of write him a little fan letter and say, I admire your style so much. You seem to have basically life figured out at the age of, you know, 30 something. I would love to meet you and interview you and understand how you got, you know, to this place in your, in your career and your life. And everybody in my life at the time knew that I was writing this letter to Miles and like, hoping that I would hear back. And I printed it out on wood grain paper. It's like really thin wood veneer. They sell it at Kate's Papery, which was there back in the day.
- [05:14]
Nick Olson
Sure.
- [05:15]
Miles Red
And I had to like make the font like 10 or 11 point because there was like the fan letter part and then there was like, and a little bit about me that went on for embarrassingly too long just to show kind of like the breadth of my interest. But really thinking that I would never hear back. Sort of riddled with embarrassment afterwards that, you know, what did I just put out into the world? Oh, and I put it in a giant pale blue, like Tiffany blue envelope and sent it to Miles's house because I thought that's what came up on Google. I didn't know he no longer worked out of his home. Well, to my surprise, two weeks after I sent the letter, I got another pale blue envelope back to my dorm room mailroom from Amanda, his lovely office manager at the time, saying, miles received your letter, he would very much like to meet with you. And I almost had a stroke in the middle of the student center because I just, I thought never in my life would I hear back from this person. He's very busy, doesn't have the time for somebody like me. And I called the Office. I set up a meeting. Amanda was lovely on the phone. We set up a time and I go to his then office on Bleecker street wearing a costume dentist. Like, I look like a crazy person.
- [06:39]
Nick Olson
What were you wearing?
- [06:40]
Miles Red
I had very long hair at the time. Like I really wanted to look like the Calvin Klein underwear model Travis Fimmel, which I had the hair. I didn't have like the arms of the stomach. But I was also wearing like a weird like batik blazer and like a J. Crew reptile. And like it was, it was a, it was a lot. But Miles was very gracious as he always is, and he, you know, answered my few questions and I had a list and then he turned things back around me and asked me some, you know, who was my favorite designer, who is my favorite architect. What's, you know, all these things about, like what, what are your interests? What are your tastes? Which I wasn't really prepar that because I thought, I'm the journalist here, I want to, I want to know what he's saying. And then he revealed to my surprise that his then assistant had given her notice and was on the way out and that he was actually in the process of hiring somebody. And I thought, oh, well, I, you know, definitely want to be considered for this because I don't, I only have an internship. I don't have a full time job. And I sent a proper resume. I stayed in touch with Amanda and she called me, I think two weeks after the first interview and said, you've got the job. And I, I was just like, sign me up. I didn't ask about anything.
- [08:01]
Nick Olson
I was just like, I'll salary negotiations or nothing.
- [08:04]
Miles Red
Yeah, but there was a, there was a salary and there were full health benefits, which I thought, well, my dad's going to be so happy. I now have a paying job with benefits in New York City. So I felt like I'd won the lottery. And I went out that night to dinner. My friend Lauren and I went out to celebrate. And this is so random that I remember this, but we went to our favorite spot and Gwyneth Paltrow and Chris Martin walked by and like saw us staring and Chris Martin turned around and stuck his tongue out and sort of did like, you know, raspberries on us. But I thought somehow I thought that was a sign from the design heavens that this was meant to be.
- [08:43]
Nick Olson
They were somehow celebrating with you.
- [08:45]
Miles Red
They were in sort of, you know, kind of a silly, weird way. But I just thought, I'm going down the path that I'm supposed to be on finally. I don't know where it's going to lead. But the whole architecture pursuit had been my dream since childhood. I was like, you know, we got to take a hard left out of this.
- [09:03]
Nick Olson
Well, and what happened with architecture? So when did you realize that it wasn't the path for you? And why wasn't it?
- [09:14]
Miles Red
You know, my parents were very pro education. You know, my mother was a teacher. My father was a research scientist and inventor who had gotten his master's and PhD. My mother had her master's. They wanted us to be educated adults, but they didn't care where we went to school or what we did with it, as long as it was something, you know, with honor, so to speak. I was ambitious. I was like a little academics freak that wanted to. I mean, I think that's how I got like a lot of my self esteem because I wasn't very good at sports. Like, I was creative. I was always a creative little kid, but I was very good at school. And I thought, well, the kind of culmination of that is going to an Ivy League school. And what better way to combine your passion for old houses and architecture and living and sort of lifestyle than becoming like a successful residential architect. And ended up at Columbia, which is an incredible school, but having done zero research about the architecture department there. And I just thought, well, I'll pivot, you know, I'll figure out kind of how to be successful here because that's what I do, you know. And it just wasn't a great fit. And it wasn't. I was the square peg in the round hole that couldn't speak the language. I couldn't quite fake what they were expecting in terms of really talking about program. And you weren't really supposed to design anything. It was very theory based and you're sort of like this like quasi social scientist who just somehow figured it out from within. And it ended up on paper and in a 3D chipboard model. And my last critique that I had there, we all traveled to Williamsburg, Brooklyn and there was an infill site that we were supposed to design a media center and gallery space. And I turned around and there was this old Spanish bakery called La Villito which had these old wedding cakes in the store window that were covered with dust and just like cracked. And I thought I was being like, I was like, oh, this is my inspiration.
- [11:19]
Nick Olson
This is speaking to.
- [11:21]
Miles Red
Yeah, it did the, the old wedding cakes in the window. Shocking. And I, for my final presentation, my final model, I made a giant Wedding cake as the structure, you know, like, very, like, googie architecture. And the theater was like a big slice that came out of it with the. You know, it had like.
- [11:43]
Nick Olson
And how. And how was this accepted at the school, Nick? How was that received?
- [11:47]
Miles Red
Well, shockingly, with all of the. With all of the staff and the guest critics, it was like a land for the slaughter. It was just not. Not. I was the first one to present. I basically. I didn't get laughed out of the room, but I got told that I was a failure to my face, which is.
- [12:05]
Nick Olson
You're kidding. So that's really what they said.
- [12:06]
Miles Red
Oh, yeah. They said, this is a failure. You know, I. The guest critic said, you know, this is a waste of your college education, like, what you've done here. And I was so crushed because I thought I was a little. Yeah, I thought I was being cheeky, and I didn't think it would necessarily go over great, but. And it really wasn't my middle finger to the program. It was me doing something I thought was kind of clever and sort of an appropriate, like, kind of critique of gentrification. I don't know, getting real deep in there, but whatever. It was like a lead balloon, like, not happening, did not go over. But going back to Suzanne Stevens, she was teaching, had taught for decades, the Architecture Criticism seminar. And we would write critical essays of current and 20th century architecture. And she thought that I had some talent in writing, and we got along very well. And she was just a glamorous person that I thought, wow, this is a personality. This is a New Yorker. This is another. Just like very similar to Miles in that way, that a real character who knows what they're doing, who's successful, who's connected and seems to be enjoying what they do. And I thought more of that, please, in my life, because academia and the pursuit of architecture, at least as far as what little I knew of it up until then, was not working out for me.
- [13:44]
Nick Olson
So into the. Into the welcoming arms of Miles Red, you run.
- [13:51]
Miles Red
I ran with abandon and also tons of nerves because I was kind of like a highly educated child. I had had two internships, I think, at that point, because my whole career had been making good grades and I barely knew how to. What an invoice was. I was scared to speak on the phone because it wasn't a long, narrow open where everybody was listening, and I didn't want to sound foolish. And, you know, I wanted. I wanted. I thought the stakes were so high, because they were. And I wanted to do a great job for Miles and Amanda and their clients and. But I very quickly learned that it wasn't trial by fire, but Miles worked so quickly and efficiently that there was no kind of sitting down for training. It was like, you will figure this out because we have these XYZ jobs that are ongoing and it's urgent. I mean, everything was kind of urgent, which is instilled in me to this day about decorating, where it feels like Miles is very good about answering the phone, calling, responding to every phone call and email, staying on top of things. And it was a very good example of how to not only be a extremely talented designer, which I already knew, I'm like, that's a given. I knew Miles had the gift. Turns out he is very good at business and very good at running an office. So that was invaluable.
- [15:24]
Nick Olson
Talk a little bit about your apartment. And the first time that Miles finally comes over to your apartment, that's a big turning point, it turns out for you as well.
- [15:39]
Miles Red
It was. And another nerve wracking experience because I had somehow convinced a female friend, my friend Amy, that I'm still close with to this day, to live with me in a grand studio apartment on Fifth Avenue and 22nd Street. It was a very steep walk up that kept me in great physical shape. And she had gone home to California and trusted me to find the real estate, which is a huge mistake because I will never operate practically, but we made it work for, I think a year. And she let me decorate and, you know, I was like, do we?
- [16:17]
Nick Olson
She made it work as long as she could with all of your experimentation.
- [16:21]
Miles Red
She paid half the rent for as long as she could. It basically subsidized my fantasy of having this 12 foot ceilings with a fireplace and a big bathroom and beautiful windows overlooking, you know, the Flatiron Building. And.
- [16:33]
Nick Olson
But I mean, you did a lot of experimenting in that apartment, if I recall.
- [16:36]
Miles Red
I did experiment and I was taking things home from the flea market and I painted the walls and I would ask Miles his opinion on certain things and he just said, well, I need to see. I want to see it. Like, when can we all see your apartment? I said, it's not done yet. It's not done yet. It's not done. I think, like, two years into working for him, I finally had a housewarming party for Miles and friends from the office and my friends from life. And everybody walked up to my third, felt like fifth floor studio apartment and had champagne and had little snacks. And Miles was so kind and very, very, very positive and just wanted to see everything and, like, check out all my little crafts, my loving hands at home projects. But at the party, he called his friend Sarah Ruffin Costello, who was at the time creative director of Domino magazine. And, you know, Domino was the magazine for. It was, like, made such a splash. And I knew that all. You know, he was so close with the people working there. And he said, sarah, you have to come see this apartment. Like, Nikki's done an amazing job. You just have to see it. I was like, oh, that's so nice. And she did. She came and scouted the apartment. And very. It feels like it was, like back to back. Sarah and her husband, Paul Costello, came.
- [17:57]
Nick Olson
The brilliant photographer, Paul Costello.
- [17:59]
Miles Red
Brilliant photographer Paul Costello. Genius. Shot on film with Polaroids of my little studio and with me. And then Miles comes over. But the photos, I thought were beautiful, and, I mean, it just. The kids would now say, like, vibey. There was a vibe that I'm like, oh, this is what I've been after. Like, this is what I wanted to create in this apartment. And this is how I wanted to feel. This is how I wanted to live. And it made me so happy. And then when, I guess when Deborah Needleman, the editor in chief, had seen the film, they thought it was a possibility for a cover. And so they sent back a whole new, bigger team for a cover try with Derek Aponigro and Melanie Acevedo and Lauren Goodman, the fashion director. And they had me in little Tom Browne suits. I was just like. That I asked for. I felt like, wow, this is. I couldn't believe it was happening. And they did a cover try with me, a real model wearing an Oscar de la Renta gown. And then my friend, to make it more personal, because they'd never put a man on the COVID That's right.
- [19:09]
Nick Olson
It was all the barefoot women at the time.
- [19:12]
Miles Red
It was all the barefoot, stylish ladies as they deserved to be. And I thought. Well, I don't. I never imagined that I would physically be on the COVID of anything. So I was not embarrassed when they put the beautiful blonde model who looked like a taller Jessica Simpson, on the COVID in the beautiful gown on my sofa that I upholstered myself. And it made the COVID I think it was the November 2006 cover of Domino, which still blows my mind to this day, because I was 24 years old, getting off at the Prince street station to go to work and seeing my tiny home on the COVID of a national design magazine. So that was very special. And that, I'm not kidding, was all thanks to Miles, because I would not have the chutzpah to do that well.
- [20:01]
Nick Olson
And out of that cover also came the opportunity for you to do a column for Domino, the Deal Hunter column.
- [20:09]
Miles Red
Oh, this was the beginning of the blog era. And Domino had their own blog. And forget who it was on staff that suggested that I do sort of like a Deal Hunter blog column. And I got to write, which is fun. I still, I love to write. I love the sound of my own voice.
- [20:28]
Nick Olson
Dennis, this just in.
- [20:32]
Miles Red
Yeah, exactly.
- [20:33]
Nick Olson
Nick likes hearing from himself, right?
- [20:36]
Miles Red
I thought it was clever, and I was immensely flattered that they asked me to do that as well as write actual articles for the magazine.
- [20:49]
Dennis Scully
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- [21:54]
Nick Olson
So here you are. All of this is coming to you such a young age. At the same time, unfortunately, here comes the financial crisis, sadly, which sounds the the death knell for Domino. In 2009, when the magazine closes and the world changed in a huge way, it sounds like it also had an impact for Miles and his business at the time. And it seems to coincide with you ultimately leaving and starting your own firm without bringing back unpleasant memories of the day. Tell me about that time and what happened.
- [22:37]
Miles Red
I believed so much in Miles's talent that I knew all the things that were coming for him would. I knew he would have a book. I knew he would have a line of fabrics and wallpapers. I knew he would do furniture. I knew he would do all these collaborations. And I thought, I want to be around for that because that feels so exciting. And I know he's going to do it better than anybody. And how fabulous will that be? Well, 2008, financial, you know, crisis hits and it Just pushed, you know, it kind of kicked the can down the road. And I thought, well, I'm so impatient. I know I eventually want to do this for myself. It would be fun to see it all happen for him. But like, maybe this is the time that I try to do this for myself. But I thought, well, when is there a good time to leave a comfortable, enriching, well paying, full time job with benefits. Is there ever a good time to do that? But you know, you don't want to leave at the height of like, you know, boom times. So. And I didn't want to leave Miles in the lurch because, you know, he had David and he had some more help at the time. And it was, it was a conversation and it was a, it was a difficult conversation because I thought it was my time to go. But I didn't want to end the friendship and I didn't want to hurt him at 29 years old. I was freaking out because I thought, yeah, you know, he, Miles is a gentleman and he understood and he not only wished me well, he sent me, eventually referred me to clients for jobs that he couldn't take on. He like the font of the Miles, you know, the drip, not only drippings from the pan, but just like true referrals like, you go work for these people, I know you're going to do a great job. That did help set me on my way in my own career. So I am forever grateful to that too.
- [24:32]
Nick Olson
Well, and you talked about Miles being the savvy business person in addition to being such a sophisticated and talented decorator. What do you feel you learned and took away as you were thinking about starting your own business?
- [24:52]
Miles Red
First off, keep the overhead low. He would not over invest in, you know, his office space at the time was very inexpensive. He didn't really pay for marketing because he could do that himself. He didn't, he didn't even really throw too much investment into client presentations because I think the sheer confidence he had in his ideas, but also knowing if you've paid to digitally render the entire house and do these beautiful boards and the client says, I don't like any of it, then you've lost money that you can't necessarily bill back. And there was this kind of like understanding that you've hired people, had hired Miles, and now people hire me for a service and also what I can bring to the table. And like there's a, there should be an initial trust there that I will show you things that you like. So I'm not going to do this Giant like dog and pony show to convince you that my, that some of my ideas will work for your home if you're not billing on an hourly structure, which he wasn't. And the whole point is to get from A to B to C, then don't waste your time on the curtain sketches. Let's get approval from the clients, let's get the curtains made, let's be on to the next thing. Let's deliver on what was promised. And the momentum that he kept as a business person was incredible. And it still inspires me because there's no guarantee that that next job is going to come along. So you need to kind of work quickly enough to finish what you've got so you have time to take on more.
- [26:36]
Nick Olson
Well, and it couldn't have been easy in the very beginning with your new firm just because of the economic climate at the time. And even in 2010, everyone was still very much feeling the impact of the financial crisis still. And, and I wonder, did you start with relatively small jobs? And I'm curious about how you grew to take on bigger jobs.
- [27:05]
Miles Red
I was working for my second apartment, which was a walk up in Nolita on Spring Street. And when I was still working for Miles, I had one client on my own that I was able to run through. He let me run the project through his company with the accounts and everything, which was very kind of him. And I, through the blog, through the Domino blog, I had been getting inquiries for I guess what we call e decorating now. Like, I have two rooms. Can you do the furniture plan and then do a itemized list of what I should buy on the Internet for my home? And that made me some money. But it's not very satisfying if the person lives in Chicago and you can't go see the room that you've just specced out.
- [27:49]
Nick Olson
Right.
- [27:49]
Miles Red
But I would say it was a combination of referrals from both Miles and some friends. It was additional press that I got by designing Friends apartments. My friend Rebecca's studio in Brooklyn was in House Beautiful, and it was just still showing people out there who might want to hire a designer, okay, this is what I can do. This is what I'm capable of. And at some point I met a client on the east side on 72nd street, and her family had a duplex. And she basically was interviewing me. And I think I know now that she was also interviewing Ashley Whitaker, who's now my friend. And it was between us. And the client eventually told me, I'm going to hire you, but you have to Tone it down on the flea market stuff. Okay.
- [28:40]
Nick Olson
Ouch.
- [28:42]
Miles Red
But I knew what she was saying. It wasn't a dig. And I just thought, but no one's ever given me a budget that has been beyond that. I mean, really. I mean, I was working with okay budgets, but if we're gonna do Park Avenue and 72nd street, then, yes, the gauntlet has been thrown. Like, let's ditch the flea market. Let's do some real Luther Quintana sofas.
- [29:04]
Nick Olson
So.
- [29:05]
Miles Red
And, you know, that's what we did. And I'm still working with that person to this day. She's referred me to many of her, but that was a turning point, because that apartment was in Veranda when that came out. Mark Sykes put it on his blog. Thank you, Sykes. I know. And it just got a good kind of following, and it built from there. And it still blows my mind, because that feels like it was two or three years ago, and it was probably 10 or 12 years ago, but here we are.
- [29:38]
Nick Olson
Well. And so as your firm began to grow, you talked about staying lean, and you talked about being very mindful. How did you think about staffing? How did you think about working with PR people or marketing yourself? I mean, tell me about it.
- [29:57]
Miles Red
I knew I had the marketing part down because of the miles example of just making your own relationships with editors and vendors and PR people and having a pretty wide network just organically. The business part was harder because I was doing it all myself and sending out invoices in the middle of the night and working from home was a pain. So I finally went on the search for an office space and found one little room. But I do like to keep it lean. I don't want to manage a big staff. To me, I'm scattered enough as it is, wondering what six, seven, eight people are doing at any given time. Even if you can sort of create teams and do all that stuff, I'm also just clearly too controlling to do it because I am picking out every fringe and every welt that goes into these projects and obsessing over the scale of things, which I think is the almost 9/10 of the job to get the proportions right and the scale. So that's really still all on me. But, you know, as a business, you can't take these big swings all that often with your. Your businesses, funds. You have to kind of be mindful of, you know, where. Where are we at for the quarter, for the year? Like, do we want to. Do we want to spend money on another photo shoot or try to do a Book or do the development for xyz. And instead it's like, instead, I bought two houses.
- [31:37]
Nick Olson
Oh, yeah. And we're going to talk about the Duchess Folly.
- [31:41]
Miles Red
Oh, gosh.
- [31:43]
Nick Olson
And shifting gears a little bit. There are a couple different things I wanted to ask you about. So you use the term decorator, and I wonder, how do you think about this whole debate around decorator versus designer? Recently, when I asked a lot of people, some people got quite animated about what they think the difference is in those words. And I'm curious how you see it or think about it. And some of the greats that you've admired refer to themselves as decorators, of course. Right.
- [32:19]
Miles Red
I proudly embrace decorator. I was told decades ago that to be an interior designer, you have to have, like, a license and, you know, a degree. Like, I don't. I'm not an interior designer. I'm an interior decorator, and I take the box and I decorate it. I love collaborating with brilliant architects and artisans and kind of builders and people who move walls around and have a vision for that. And I have my own opinions, but by and large, I'm taking, like, a set of given conditions and decorating them and decorating around them and filling these spaces with things that make a home. So I am a decorator, and I love it. I think designer, interior designer sounds a bit more maybe established or respectable. And if people have their own issues about that, then so be it. But we're all sort of, like, working towards the same end. Semantics don't keep me up at night.
- [33:20]
Nick Olson
Do you ever whip out with clients that you've got an architecture degree from Columbia?
- [33:25]
Miles Red
No, but it's like when they're. When their kids are trying to get into these schools, it just makes me think, thank God I did it when I did it, because it's so much harder these days. And it does sound good at cocktail parties. And it does. You know, Dennis, sometimes I'll drop that. Like, you know.
- [33:41]
Nick Olson
Sure.
- [33:41]
Miles Red
Like, oh, drop that name. Pick that up off the ground. Columbia sounds good. But when in reality, I am shilling lampshades and, like, sofas and all of the above, so.
- [33:56]
Nick Olson
Well, it's interesting, and I ask in part because we seem to be in another one of these moments where many are wondering if there is too low of a barrier to entry in the world of interior design. And. And you touched on many of the designers who reached out to me, said, I got a design degree. I got an education in this, and I passed that wretched exam. Right. And so I call myself an Interior designer to recognize that exactly as they should. And I stand with that. And I spend a bunch of time over at the New York School of Interior Design and I'm eager for people to get a great design education. But I also speak to an awful lot of great designers who don't have that kind of education and have found remarkable success. It used to be that Ralph Lauren was a pretty good design school for many of the great.
- [34:56]
Miles Red
The magnet of talent. So much talent still comes through Ralph Lauren.
- [35:01]
Nick Olson
Yeah.
- [35:01]
Miles Red
In a perfect world you would have all three. A liberal arts education, a design school education and on the job experience. And that would be fabulous. Is that open to everybody? No. Right. My experience was basically the liberal arts plus the plus. You know, my graduate school was Miles Red llc. But everybody is taking their own path and I don't know that I would. Well, I've never, I've never been to interior design school. What I've heard through the grapevine is that there is a kind of like a reckoning when graduates finally go work to somebody, with somebody and it's the day to day Business operations are not what they understood school to. You know, in school they didn't learn that. But it's like how can you learn running a business in school? That's just not going to happen. I would rather take somebody with creativity and like diligence and hard work and ambition and a passion for, for design and sort of teach them how I do things because it's more efficient for me as a small business owner. But that would also be great if they knew how to draw things to scale, if they knew how to get, you know, like render things like that. That's invaluable too. So. But because I'm such like a low tech firm and person, it's different firms and different designers, different decorators value very different things. So I don't need that person who knows cad, who knows every single digital platform. And I'm just kind of like I'm here with my pencil and paper showing you how this sofa fits in.
- [36:41]
Nick Olson
Yeah, no, it makes sense and I was curious related to that. So back when you're in architecture school and there is criticism, there are people writing about other people's work, there are discussions and, and there doesn't seem to be that in interior design in the same way.
- [37:08]
Miles Red
There's not. I mean we're supposed to be such a genteel industry where everybody's friendly and it is. You're in people's home, you need to be a friendly, nice person. And also get things done. And with my friends and colleagues who are designers, I don't feel like there's a ton of competition because it's like we're all in this together, and the right job will go to the right decorator or designer. But in terms of criticism, a very good friend of mine used to point out that El Decor, the Truth in Decorating column, where they would review product and furniture and things, and they used to let the designers be a little bit snarkier. This is, like, long ago. This is, like, 10 years ago. And that kind of went out the window because, I'm sure, because of advertising and whatnot. But I'm all for decorating criticism. It's not all good out there, and it's including my own work. I know. I know a mediocre room that I've done that could be. Oh, that. That could be tweaked. Like, the proportions are a little off or the styling's off. I think criticism advances, like, moves the needle. Like, I think it advances our profession. And it's necessary snark and nastiness and. No, thanks. But there's a. There's sort of a fine line.
- [38:23]
Nick Olson
Recently, we've been having a lot of conversations about different people writing substacks or different people, which seems to be the blog of our age, of course. Right. And there seems to be an opportunity there for some independent voices. I just. I long for. To your point, I long for a world where we could have an intelligent conversation about, hey, what is great work? What does it really look like, who's doing it, and what can we learn from this great work to help us distinguish what, what isn't such great work.
- [38:56]
Miles Red
Oh, 100%. And that's what I would look to in any potential employee today or anybody kind of coming up through the ranks, is how well do you know your history of design, of decorating? You know, Miles is an incredible student of design history and is an encyclopedia. And don't just look at the pictures of the Madeline Castaigng book. Like, read the text, read about Rose coming and read about, you know, Elsie DeWolf and Albert Hadley and, like, all, like, Emilio Terry. Like, on and on and on and on and on and on and on, and isolate what you like out of their work and what you understand to be something that you can incorporate into your own, you know, into how it feels current for people today. By the same token, read everything and just say, well, I really don't like how they did that curtain header. Or, like, that feels wrong today or, like, out of scale. Like nobody would do a sofa with an arm that big. Or like, you know, like it's God is in the details. And don't we all have careers because of a level of connoisseurship which somehow seems to be. No one's supposed to talk about that anymore because everything is just presented to you, kind of like ready to go, like it's here. But the story behind objects and understanding why an object is somehow compelling. Or better, rather, you're not supposed to be good, better, best. But there's. There's usually a better version of that chair Dennis out there. And I'm here to tell you why that chair is not so great. And when we're all kind of like playing nice in the sandbox, like, that's not what everybody wants to hear. But it is a hallmark of what we do as decorators and designers. And not just me, it's the furniture dealers out there, the amazing stylists, prop stylists, Photoshop, you know, they have connoisseurship. And that needs to be celebrated and understood for sure.
- [41:02]
Dennis Scully
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- [41:47]
Nick Olson
I was having a conversation recently with Benjamin Noriega Ortiz, who had worked for John Celadino for many years before going out on his own. And he talked about the challenge of getting out of the mind of his boss and getting out of that decorating style and all that. He loved about it and appreciated about it and how. How good he had become at executing it.
- [42:17]
Miles Red
Right.
- [42:18]
Nick Olson
Of course, as one does. I wonder if you experienced that leaving Miles, who clearly has had such a huge impact on your life and your work. And if that was a process you had to go through yourself.
- [42:37]
Miles Red
I did for sure. I am a sensitive little Pisces who is very prone to the power of suggestion. So when somebody looms large in your kind of design psyche and in your work life, you know, you are trying to find things that that person likes you. I would say like Miles, what do you think about this? Rather it's like too muddy Too. Don't show me mud. Like, show me clear colors. And he could say it at a really hilarious way more so than I do. But those things still resonate. But in terms of going out on my own and carving out my own niche, you have to take what you've learned and then say, all right, well, there's always like a what would Miles do? Situation. But what am I trying to express here? What do I like that I just like. I like postmodern furniture. Like, a lot of it. I don't think Miles likes postmodern furniture. And that's fine. Like different strokes for different folks. And what do you want to kind of mix? It's all in the mix and kind of like how you put things together. I had clients, a client early on who, when I met him, his living room had pink paint swatches on the walls and red velvet fabric swatches. And he wanted a pink living room with a red velvet sofa, just like Miles has at home. And I thought, ooh, this is copycat. Like, we can't do the exact same thing. But over time, I moved enough so I could decorate for myself enough, which is one thing. Like, you make a good name when you could decorate for yourself and show what would do to your own home. But then also, I just got enough clients who weren't hiring me for that stamp, necessarily. And not that there's a stamp, per se, but also clients who had way other left field ideas that they wanted me to interpret or things that they brought to the table which weren't about me, Miles, or anybody. So it shows kind of how client driven the job is, but also like it is providing a luxury service, which is another thing, that dirty word that people don't want to talk about. But you prove that you're adept enough at providing the service and that you have decent enough taste. I'm not saying that I like. But then you. You just kind of like lather, rinse, repeat. Like, you'll get. You'll get more work. It is, to me, it's still sort of hard to shake. Certain things like that were drilled into me in terms of, you know, Miles doesn't really like chenille. Like across the board, no chenille. And I still kind of wince about when I'm shown a chenille. I'm like, ugh. So there's like a trickle down effect, for sure.
- [45:15]
Nick Olson
Well, I mean, and related to that, I've spoken with a lot of designers that have pointed out how much more expensive things have gotten. Now we also have the unsettling and unnerving added element, which is all this tariff talk and not knowing where there'll be price increases where there won't be. And I wonder, are you getting a lot of notices from vendors about that? Are you having to navigate that?
- [45:46]
Miles Red
We've had a couple vendors talk about how tariffs may impact their lead times and their pricing, and there's definitely anxiety about that on the client side. Not so much mention of it. I'm sure it's there simmering. It's certainly scary and intimidating, but in reality it's. People move constantly. It's. If you need, if your family is growing and you need to move, you're gonna, you're gonna move. And if you're prone to hiring a designer or decorator, you're probably gonna hire a decorator. So that part is a little bit built in job security, but it doesn't mean that you don't feel the impact of like the greater economy and how just insanely prices have gone up across the board for obviously everything. I mean, price of eggs, but the price of design related materials too. And there are some longer conversations justifying why things cost what they do and how many people really have to get paid because of one throw pillow or whatever. But you know, it's like at the end of the day, people want what they want and if they, if they can afford it, then the price is the price. That's sort of the beauty of this industry for me. On a business side, I don't set the prices. Everybody sort of works differently. It's like I mark up on the prices. So it's just sort of like across the board for me. It is what it is. It's like, I can't make the fabric cheaper. I'm sorry, I can't.
- [47:18]
Nick Olson
Well, I mean, it's interesting because I mean, there was this growing perception and perhaps with that a concern that our industry suddenly seems so expensive. Right. And even to very wealthy clients, they say, I forget the designer I was talking to recently who was saying, yes, that is a $2,000 throw pillow. And for sure, and to your point, let me tell you why, and let me tell you how many different purchase orders are just involved in making that throw pillow.
- [47:55]
Miles Red
Oh, beyond. And also especially with fabrics and wallpapers and objects, things that you can feel. There are no price tags. On my presentations, clients instinctively go to the most expensive option. It happens almost every time. And they're like, oh, feel that. What is that? I was like, well, it's 100% silk velvet. I was like, of course it feels you know, well, I can't make it any less expensive. It is what it is. I can. There's that New Yorker cartoon where it's like, well, I can. If you're on a budget, I can show you something uglier. We always say, like, it's the triangle. Like good, fast and cheap. Pick two. You're never gonna get all three. And that's reality. If it's, if it's good and cheap, it's probably not gonna. It's not gonna be. It's gonna take a long time to get. You want all three, you're just not going to get all three.
- [48:48]
Nick Olson
You got to settle for two. I'm curious since you talked about the clients and the presentations recently. We were talking about the client dictionary and all of these terms that clients may or may not understand thoroughly. And I'm wondering if that comes up for you. If you have to take clients through discussions about what they really mean, there.
- [49:17]
Miles Red
Are definitely conversations about what they mean by what they're saying and what I'm trying to get across, what they really want. Delicate conversations around why I don't think something that some, a client might have shown me is the best option for their home. Which can be difficult, but you know, you have to stay firm. But polite conversations around quality conversations around scale. I can't tell you how many times it's like, I love that bench too, but it's not the right scale. To sit at the foot of a king size bed and on and on and on and on. And you have to dig in and say, well, you've hired me for my expertise and this is why I feel the way I do. But you can't be rude or insulting. Like, you know, and on the other token, you can't. I don't feel comfortable selling clients something that they just truly don't like. Why would I want to live with that? Oh, you didn't like that chair and I insisted on it and you never liked it. Like, that's not a good feeling. I might like it for myself, but if they don't like, you have to learn how to let go. That's just part of life is your.
- [50:28]
Nick Olson
Is your look and aesthetic. Well, first of all, how do you describe your look?
- [50:34]
Miles Red
Oh, gosh, now the marketing is going to go out the window because I don't know, I mean, this was something I wanted to talk. Remember high low? That was such a buzzword forever.
- [50:46]
Nick Olson
Yes.
- [50:47]
Miles Red
High low has gone out the window completely.
- [50:48]
Nick Olson
High low is out the window.
- [50:49]
Miles Red
No more high low. It used to be the mix of high, low, and I'm like, what's high? What's low? Forget it. Yeah, I do like a more like a dense room arrangement. I can't live with like a futon and one, one drinks table in the room. It's not gonna happen. I like more traditional furniture shapes, upholstery shapes, and I do love antiques across the board. But I do love modern and contemporary artwork. I love, you know, 20th century design. I am, I want to be sort of an aggregator of everything filtered through the lens of, well, what haven't I seen in a while? What's something that sort of would be fun to kind of put together in a way that is provocative or interesting to me at least. And that all gets funneled through with my client projects. It's like, well, how do they really want to live? Maybe they don't. Maybe that chair, it needs to be a lot more comfortable than it looks right now. I study all the greats of basically 20th century and beyond residential interior decorating and design, and I just try to kind of figure out what I can take from everybody and how to make it not a copycat situation, but how to make it something relatively unique. To me, that's a horrible, horrible summation of my style. Dennis, I don't have a three word answer.
- [52:18]
Nick Olson
No, no, no, no, no. And I didn't expect you to, nor want you to. I really, I was curious because it's interesting that on Instagram today and the algorithms show us so much of the quiet, luxury look on the one hand, right. And educating us that brown is the color of luxury.
- [52:42]
Miles Red
Of course.
- [52:43]
Nick Olson
Right. And that's a strong force. And you see a lot on that is this very beigey brown, very, very simple look that we, that we see a lot. And that seems in contrast to your work, to miles work, to others who have a lot more layers. But I wonder, do your clients, do clients want a more minimal, neutral look today? Is that what they think? The rhythm look, Look, I didn't even bring RH up.
- [53:17]
Miles Red
There you go. This whole time, the alarm, he said rh. Everybody take a shot. I waited.
- [53:23]
Nick Olson
I wasn't even gonna bring it into it. But they too represent that aesthetic. And that's all I will say they do.
- [53:30]
Miles Red
And listen, it is market saturation, it is social media saturation, and they do it I would say, very well. We must look to the origins of these, of this aesthetic. It's Axel Vervoort. It's, it's, you know, Belgian. I'm like, I'm just saying, show Me, the primary source material, and I will study that and I will learn from it. It's remember xeroxes. It's like a copy of a copy of a copy. At Columbia, they call that xerography. They're like you, you've experimented today with xerography. I was like, are you serious? That's that we're going to use that word. I want to look to the person that not necessarily did it first, but sort of like, did it earlier and sometimes better. Billy Cotton and I will go back and forth over text or Instagram about Anoushka Hempel, who does these, like, beauty, like, oh my gosh, her hotels and her topiaries and her lampshades and, I mean, and Andre Putman, you know, working for, you know, in the early the 70s and the early 80s. I mean, there's minimalism, there's beige, there's brown, there's black, there's all of the above. I just don't need it all presented to me with a flat sameness, which I'm not necessarily saying rh, but just the Instagram bombardment of the beige and the ochre and the brown. And I guess my long winded point is there's a beautiful way to render everything. I have a brown Sam and I have a brown den at home. You know, I'm looking at a brown carpet. I have a neutral, like, brunch wig, le zebra sofa. And it's fun to pivot and it's fun to try and see something new, but designers have to kind of really micromanage the details and the arrangement and the styling for it to look fresh and interesting. I mean, that's our job. Like, it's like, yeah.
- [55:31]
Nick Olson
So you love brown, right?
- [55:33]
Miles Red
I love brown.
- [55:34]
Nick Olson
And nothing against brown.
- [55:36]
Miles Red
If a client came tomorrow and said, I want an all brown ochre and beige apartment, I would absolutely do it and I would consider it a fun challenge.
- [55:43]
Nick Olson
Okay, my last question for you, Nick, is this. So earlier you were talking about when we were talking about not having a great big staff or not spending all this time working on all these things. Value your downtime. And if ever someone was primed to be an Instagram star. Nicholson. Right.
- [56:07]
Dennis Scully
It is you.
- [56:08]
Nick Olson
You are smart, you are witty, you are insightful, you are. You have so much to say and you say it well. And so my question to you is, in this day and age, when everyone is doing Instagram videos and moving to that new verticality on Instagram that's being celebrated. Nick Olson, where are you, my good man? And is this something that you. That you want to do. Are you ready to step up?
- [56:45]
Miles Red
Well, the fact that my partner Sam was just in here helping me with the camera and the. It's part tech.
- [56:52]
Nick Olson
Okay. Okay.
- [56:54]
Miles Red
It's part clamming up on camera because I can. And I'm a Chatty Cathy. And I love chatting with you and anybody who wants to, you know, such a pleasure. Speak on design or anything, but I freeze when it's canned remarks, and that's so much of at least television. Not. Not speaking to the camera on Instagram. And I do not really want to look at myself on the camera, believe it or not. Three, I am Mary. Mary, quite contrary. So if everybody's doing it, then I'm like, well, then why do I have to do it, too? And that's not the best angle from a marketing perspective. But I would really want. If I'm talking into the camera, it's not about, like, what I had for lunch or, like, look at me at the flower market today or things like that. I want it to be, like, compelling entertainment. Like, I've, like, Like I want to do things that are fun and exciting and worthwhile and, you know, instead of just, like, endless fear, feeling like you have to show up to, like, be that personality, you know, so under.
- [58:01]
Nick Olson
Understood. Understood. Well, I'm grateful that you were able to make time for me.
- [58:06]
Miles Red
Oh, any day, any hour. Thank you.
- [58:08]
Nick Olson
Well, an absolute pleasure. And thank you so much.
- [58:11]
Miles Red
Thank you so much, Dennis. I am a huge fan of the podcast and everything you do. I'm serious. It's fabulous.
- [58:19]
Dennis Scully
Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line@podcastusinessofhome.com if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcast Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicolaus and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dan of Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.