Stephanie Sabbe keeps it real

Summary

Business of Home Podcast Summary: "Stephanie Sabi Keeps It Real"

Release Date: February 24, 2025

Hosts and Guests:

• Host: Dennis Scully
• Guest: Stephanie Sabi, celebrated interior designer and owner of Heirloom Artifacts, author of Interiors of a Storyteller

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Introduction to Stephanie Sabi and Her Journey

In this engaging episode of the Business of Home Podcast, host Dennis Scully sits down with Stephanie Sabi, a renowned interior designer from Nashville. Stephanie is not only acclaimed for her artistic home designs but also celebrated for her authentic presence on Instagram and her forthcoming book, Interiors of a Storyteller. The conversation delves into Stephanie's unique approach to design, her personal stories, and the challenges she faces in the evolving interior design industry.

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Stephanie’s Personal Stories and Their Influence on Her Design Philosophy

Stephanie opens up about her colorful upbringing, sharing formative experiences that shaped her perspective on home and design.

Treehouse and Early Lessons: At [03:05], Stephanie recounts a vivid childhood memory:

"I’m laying atop this tree house and I look up and it looks like toilet paper is falling from the sky. But when you’re nine, nothing is that weird." ([05:46]) This incident, involving an unexpected FBI raid on her uncle’s marijuana farm, highlights her early understanding of creating safe, transformative spaces—a theme that permeates her design philosophy.

Navigating a Chaotic Childhood: Stephanie discusses the impact of her parents' struggles with alcoholism and how these experiences taught her resilience and the importance of creating secure environments:

"Creating home and creating these safe places in the physical space... is truly transformative." ([08:15])

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Interiors of a Storyteller: A Memoir-Design Hybrid

Stephanie’s book, scheduled for release on March 25th, is described as a memoir wrapped in a design monograph. She emphasizes the blend of personal narratives with her professional insights, aiming to provide a holistic view of her journey.

Purpose Behind the Book:

"I wanted to share my unique voice and the stories that have shaped who I am." ([12:24])

Stephanie also highlights the book's dual nature, serving both as an inspiration and a candid memoir:

"It’s not all shiny either. It’s very hard work... and social media does not help." ([10:20])

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The Role of Social Media: Authenticity vs. Strategy

Stephanie addresses the complexities of using Instagram as a business tool, balancing personal expression with professional branding.

Authentic Engagement:

"I just want to be myself and share all the parts of me. Not like every little marital dispute and stuff, but I’m a whole person." ([12:37])

Challenges Faced: She reflects on a miscommunication incident where her intent to promote goodwill was misconstrued:

"I thought I was clearly saying, ‘Let’s all try to do good,’ but people thought I was pointing to myself." ([17:22])

Stephanie advocates for authenticity over adhering to rigid social media strategies, even when it leads to misunderstandings:

"I will never be some of these cool people that I really look up to. I just am who I am." ([12:57])

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Navigating Rising Costs in the Interior Design Industry

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the escalating costs within the home industry and how it affects both designers and clients.

Impact of Inflation:

"The prices just keep getting more expensive. The same lamp I’ve specified for 10 years has had a 20 fold increase." ([25:02])

Client Reactions: Stephanie shares client interactions where budget constraints have led to project reevaluations:

"How are we going to do it? What are we going to cut? Where are we going to budget?" ([23:26])

Personal Financial Reflections: She reflects on her own financial growth juxtaposed with clients' struggles:

"I was like, how are we going to do it? It just is what it is." ([25:02])

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Trade Relationships and Vendor Partnerships

Stephanie emphasizes the importance of reliable trade partnerships in maintaining quality and trust within her business.

Valuing Reliable Vendors:

"We look for vendors that are going to help us when the bottom falls out... good customer service." ([55:15])

Challenges with Vendor Transparency: She expresses concerns over vendors appearing on mass-market platforms like Wayfair, diluting the exclusivity and trust previously established:

"When I saw them on Wayfair, I was like, what the heck?" ([52:59])

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Balancing Business Growth with Personal Well-being

Stephanie discusses the delicate balance between scaling her business and maintaining personal and professional integrity.

Staff Management During Slowdowns:

"What do I do with my staff for several months when projects are put on hold?" ([56:56])

Avoiding Over-Scaling: She conveys her hesitation to over-expand based on uncertain project outcomes:

"I don’t want to take more work than my staff can handle." ([56:56])

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Future Outlook and Legacy

Looking forward, Stephanie contemplates the sustainability of her business practices and her desire to leave a lasting legacy through her daughter.

Building for the Future:

"Maybe I'm not doing this for myself. Maybe my highs and lows are just building a business for her to run one day." ([71:15])

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Conclusion: Embracing Authenticity and Community

Stephanie wraps up the conversation by reaffirming her commitment to authenticity in her design work and personal life. She stresses the importance of being true to oneself amidst industry pressures and evolving market conditions.

Final Thoughts:

"If you like me, you like me, and if you don’t, you don’t." ([30:52])

Book Release: Stephanie invites listeners to anticipate the release of her book:

"Interiors of a Storyteller comes out March 25th." ([73:32])

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Key Takeaways:

• Authenticity Over Strategy: Stephanie prioritizes genuine self-expression on social media, even when it leads to mixed perceptions.
• Navigating Industry Challenges: Rising costs and economic fluctuations pose significant hurdles for designers, requiring adaptability and strong trade relationships.
• Personal Narratives in Design: Stephanie’s personal stories deeply influence her design philosophy, emphasizing the creation of safe and transformative spaces.
• Legacy and Future Growth: Balancing business growth with personal well-being and considering the legacy for future generations are central themes in Stephanie’s approach.

Notable Quotes:

• "Creating home and creating these safe places in the physical space... is truly transformative." ([08:15])
• "Social media does not help... it's just this constant churn of am I good enough?" ([10:20])
• "We need people who are in this lane and I'm in that lane, you know, I'm in a lane that may not be the most universally popular, but I love this lane." ([48:33])
• "Interiors of a Storyteller comes out March 25th." ([73:32])

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Stephanie Sabi's candid insights offer a refreshing perspective on the interior design industry, blending personal resilience with professional expertise. Her focus on authenticity, coupled with her strategic handling of industry challenges, makes for an inspiring listen for designers and enthusiasts alike.

Transcript

[Dennis Scully]

This is Business of Home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking to leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is Stephanie Sabi. Based in Nashville, Stephanie is a celebrated interior designer and the owner of the HomeGoods shop Heirloom Artifacts. But on top of the artful homes she crafts for clients, Stephanie is beloved by the design industry for her humor and her truth telling, most of which are done on her must follow Instagram account. Now she's bringing her unique voice to a new book, Interiors of a Storyteller. I spoke with Stephanie about why the book is really a memoir dressed up as a design monograph, how runaway costs.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Are changing the industry, and why a.

[Dennis Scully]

Dollhouse posted social media got her more clients than projects in magazines. This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta, your destination for designer quality custom size rugs with a curated assortment of timeless colors, patterns and textures. Ernesta will deliver the right size rug in the style your client wants in only two to four weeks. And with Ernesta's exclusive trade membership benefits, you can get dedicated support, free unlimited samples and special discounts to help you achieve your clients design goals. To join Ernesta's Trade program, visit ernesta.com boh this podcast is also sponsored by Hickory Chair. Since 1911, Hickory Chair has been dedicated to blending the authenticity of classic craftsmanship with the precision of modern lean manufacturing in their Hickory, North Carolina workroom. Over the years its collections have grown to include timeless designs, both modern and classic, drawn from iconic periods and places and brought to life by renowned designers like Suzanne Castler, Ray Booth, David Phoenix, Susan Hable, Kim Skodrow and Marriott Hymes Gomez. In partnership with interior designers, trade showrooms and high end boutique stores, Hickory Chair's master craftsmen create bespoke furniture that reflects the designer's vision and is celebrated for creating luxurious yet livable furniture designed to stand the test of time. Visit Hickorychair.com to learn more. And now, on with the show.

[Stephanie Sabi]

So I had written all these notes thinking, oh, should we start by telling the confessional presentation at design school, right? Or do we start with the toilet paper falling from the sky?

[Unnamed Guest]

That's the best one. That's the best one.

[Stephanie Sabi]

I mean, well, so right. So I like wanted to start with because I mean for people who haven't yet gotten their hot little hands on the book, there are so many fun stories and and your many fans will be delighted to really get to know you. I love that your husband was like.

[Dennis Scully]

You sure you wanna put all this out there?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, I don't really think about that kind of stuff. I just do it and then I deal with my emotions later.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Well, and that's part of what I wanna talk with you about too.

[Unnamed Guest]

So.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Okay, should we tell the confessional design school story? Should we tell the toilet paper falling from the sky?

[Unnamed Guest]

For sure.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Okay, let's do it.

[Unnamed Guest]

This is a story I've wanted to tell my entire life. But I knew many things had to have lined up for me to tell this story in this book. And that was not having living parents.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Yes.

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

[Stephanie Sabi]

You had to wait for everyone in the story to.

[Unnamed Guest]

And so my parents are both passed away and I was asked to write this book maybe one year later. And I am not embarrassed at all about where I came from. I consider it very much a part of who I am and a gift of having the perspective I have on the world. That being said, I spent summers with my grandmother in West Virginia, in Harts Creek, West Virginia, which is this teeny tiny town. And we had the most wonderful summers just running wild in the mountains around her house with our cousins completely unsupervised. One summer, my cousin helped us build a tree house. And that was truly my first like, foray into design and construction. We dreamed up the shape. We constructed it by gathering materials from all over the property. This is a multi generational, they call it a holler. So it's the hollowed out space between two mountains. But in that region it is called the holler. H O L L E R. And so we're in the holler that summer and I'm laying atop this tree house and I look up and it looks like toilet paper is falling from the sky. And I'm like, that's weird. But when you're nine, nothing is that weird. And so I climbed down from the treehouse and walked to the front of the hauler. And Humvees start driving past the street and they're kind of like kids, get out of the way. And my aunt's out there with a video camera on her shoulder because she's convinced she's going to be able to sell it to like Maury Povich or something. And long story short, it turned out that my uncle had been growing miles and miles of marijuana in the holler and you can apparently detect the color of the plant from the sky. So it was an FBI raid and I was.

[Stephanie Sabi]

So the FBI was actually dropping markers to indicate where the marijuana was being grown. It wasn't toilet paper, as it turned out. And they were actually coming for your uncle?

[Unnamed Guest]

And they came for my uncle. He was, like, my favorite uncle that summer. He was a farmer. He grew rhubarb. He would break it, and we would eat it as an afternoon snack. He was a really beloved family member. So the whole thing was wild to us. But we just thought, like, this is cool. Like, everyone seemed excited about it. No one was really.

[Stephanie Sabi]

There are helicopters. There are Humvees. This is so great. I wonder what's happening.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, so that is part of me. When they asked me to write a book, I was like, sure, but can I tell some stories in the book, too? You know, interior design is whatever, but these stories are good.

[Stephanie Sabi]

So after you process that experience as a young person, I mean, where did it all sort of go from there? Like, once you realized what was really happening and your uncle was sadly being arrested and goes to jail and the whole thing?

[Unnamed Guest]

I mean. Well, I had a very kind of colorful childhood. So unfortunately for someone who grew up like me, that really wasn't that rare of a story. So, you know, I'd seen at that point in life, like, my father arrested for a, like, drunken episode at our house. And so things just. When children are exposed to that kind of stuff at such a young age, nothing is that big of a deal. You're just kind of watching from afar. And, you know, I didn't digest that into some sort of, like, healthy little nugget and, you know, until my mid-30s. But that. That experience, in the wildness of it, in the way I remember feeling so secure in that janky little treehouse we. We built together, was part of that story of, like, how creating home and creating these safe places in the physical space, not just the mental space, is truly transformative. And, like, yeah, my uncle was, like, going to prison, and we were just, like, hanging out in our treehouse, like, hope everything goes okay. You know, like, it just. We were so detached, and we. Like I said, I had, unfortunately, a lot of stories like that growing up, and I love that. Like, my life is so wonderful because of the experience that I have, like, I shared, I think, in the book. But, like, going to the grocery store and being able to fill up my cart and walk out to me is such a joy. And it's something that if you've never lived in the other side of, you know, the economy, like, you don't appreciate you.

[Stephanie Sabi]

You tell such a poignant story about being asked in school to memorize your home phone number.

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. When my parents divorced, my mom had to live in a apartment with My little brother and I, and we got assigned in kindergarten to memorize our phone number. You're gonna make me cry now about my own book. I do read my own book and cry. And I'm like, maybe I'm not as therapized as I thought it was. But, yeah, we were assigned to memorize our phone numbers, and I didn't have a phone number because my mom could not afford. Afford a phone. And it wasn't like I was growing up in, like, the 1930s. This was, like, 1987. Like, most people had phones. And it's just something that was just, like, normal to me. Like, we just didn't know what we didn't know. We didn't really feel sorry for ourselves. But, you know, I had two very young parents who both suffered with alcoholism, and their lives were our normal. So I just grew up in a very chaotic normal. When everyone's like, what is wrong with her? On social media? This is what's wrong with me.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Well, and I mean, honestly, this is gonna help people understand. Right? And I think appreciate so much more. I mean, because I think so. I'm so fond of you.

[Dennis Scully]

Thank you.

[Stephanie Sabi]

And it meant so much to me to read these stories and understand so much better all that you have been through and all of these experiences and how they formed this incredible character that you are today, this loving mother, this loving wife. I mean, all of the things that you bring to it and how, you know, you said to me the other day when we were talking about how you try to put yourself out there and open up about these things so that other people can feel comfortable opening up to. And I love that. And tell me more about that. And I probably are going to get all emotional in this conversation, but that's okay.

[Unnamed Guest]

We're two drunk girls in the bathroom. I think I'm often misunderstood with the intent of what I'm trying to say on Instagram. I made it here, and I get a lot of comments from these girls who are like, well, I'm from here, and I just don't feel like I could ever do it, or I don't know the right people, or I don't have access to that. That kind of wealth. And I didn't either. But I went to design school. I went through the steps, and, like, I'm here and anybody can do it. And I just, like, kind of debunking some of the mystery of it, and people get mad at me. But, like, I'll talk about the world of using publicists and just how that works. Because I truly didn't understand it when I was like a 22 year old designer looking at who I really looked up to as celebrities, it never occurred to me like these people have this opportunity to be presented to me and it works like this. And a lot of people like to keep that hush hush. I just don't really know why. It's more of like, I just want to share that, how I got here and the ways to do it so that it doesn't feel like a mystery to someone who was like me. And it's just, it's not all shiny either. And I like to talk about that too. It's very hard work. And every time you feel successful, there is something else that's flashed in front of your face that's like, and still not there. And I don't know when that'll ever end. Like, I hate that. But social media does not help. You know, it's. It's just this constant churn of like, am I good enough? Is my work good enough? Could I be doing better? Am I as creative as whoever? You know, just all those insecurities and I don't know, I just like to talk about everything I'm not. I will never be mysterious. I will never be some of these cool people that I really look up to. I just am who I am and Right.

[Stephanie Sabi]

And, and I want to get into some of the things that you, that you talk. But I want to understand, tell me when the opportunity to have this book published comes about. Did you know immediately that you wanted it to be a memoir and share all of these stories and was everybody.

[Dennis Scully]

On board with this?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, they actually were. That is one thing I haven't given Gibbs Smith enough credit for. Just as laid back they were about the book.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Your book, Your book publisher, Gibbs Smith.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, yeah, right. You even said it in our pre interview. I'm a lot, you know, I'm a lot. I think Gibbs Smith would probably say I'm a lot, but I think we created a really beautiful product together. And no, they didn't know. I mean they wanted me to do a coffee table book and they offered a ghostwriter and I was like, ghostwriter? I don't need a ghostwriter.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Have you ghostwriter? Have you met me?

[Unnamed Guest]

Have you read my Instagram captions? Like, and so I want to write a memoir. The interior design work is like, that's my day job, you know, like, this is, this is really fun for me. I read the Glass Castle when I was like 24 years old. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that. But she also came from West Virginia, and she just kind of spoke about. I just think it's so cool to read something by someone who. It represents such a minority group. Like, I come from such a specific background, and if someone reads it and it resonates with them, like someone wrote something once that resonated with me as well. So I just think it's fun to just share that side of ourselves. No one would ever given me a book deal if I didn't do interior design. So I'm hijacking my design skills to write the memoir that I've always wanted to write. And I just hear people read it. People don't read design books. So it's a little like, y'all read the words, please.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Oh, well, that's the thing, right? So, I mean, it's got plenty of beautiful images from beautiful projects, and there's certainly that too. But it is a real book to read. And there are fun, entertaining, amusing, sometimes highly emotional stories. And it's all part of what has made you who you are. And you share a lot on Instagram, as we were just talking about, and sometimes. And I'm curious because you've said in the past that you don't use Instagram as it was intended to be used and that it. Right. And sometimes that's great, and sometimes it's challenging and people push back. And you can tell me, well, first of all, when did you decide that's how you wanted to be on this platform? And was that just always part of how you wanted to come at this, or was that an evolution that you experienced?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, no, there's not a lot of strategic planning on me at all. I am like, feel first, act first, and then think about it later. So when Instagram started, I was working in the corner of our bedroom in a Boston apartment with a one year old. So I was sharing, like, baby pictures and. And it is slowly evolved into a more professional platform. My children have made an exit for the most part, but there's no strategy. And I've read strategy and I've seen people be wildly successful, and I just don't have it in me. Like, I need.

[Stephanie Sabi]

I just don't function that way.

[Unnamed Guest]

And, like, you know, I love following some of these people who really stick to these formulas.

[Stephanie Sabi]

They're so together and buttoned up.

[Unnamed Guest]

They are impressive. People often ask me, like, you know, we have a shop. How'd you start the shop? It was like a Tuesday, and I was like, let's start a shop. I'm a really good interior designer. I can manage a project soup to nuts. But life in general, I get bored, and I'm just like, let's do something different. Let's do something crazy. And so Instagram follows that. And so I just chase life. And I think that's why my Instagram looks like I'm on speed.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Let's talk about some of the things you share. Come right up into the political realm. And I don't want to get into a whole political conversation, but okay, let's a little bit have that conversation just because. Right. Because recently you walked into. And I'm not even sure you fully understood where the. Do you ever.

[Unnamed Guest]

I'm always like, hey, guys, we're all on the same page, right? And I'm like, oh, my gosh, no. From my inbox, we are not on the same page.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Well, right. So, I mean, recently, I mean. And you tell me some people are protesting against Target, for example, because Target is doing away with some of their DEI initiatives. And you wade right into that conversation.

[Unnamed Guest]

I tried to be elusive, and then someone was like, didn't get it. And I was like, oh, I'll just. Let me clarify, you know, and then I just, like, dug myself even deeper. But, yeah, no, I. I don't know if you're into the Enneagram, but I'm very into the Enneagram. And it's this personality test that everyone in the south is, like, obsess with. And I'm an 8, and an 8 is a challenger. Martin Luther King Jr. Was an 8. Donald Trump is an 8.

[Stephanie Sabi]

So briefly explain this. Briefly explain this test and. And what it. And what it measures just so that.

[Unnamed Guest]

People who don't know it's a personality test. When I took this because of the way I'm wired, I literally. And this will make sense for my Instagram. I literally thought if I just explained something and explained it a second time better, maybe a third time, you would just agree with me because you would understand it my way. And I took this personality test, which is a. You score from one to nine. And it's. It's very informative. And it said I was this type. And when you read it, it's exactly who. It's exactly how I'm wired. And reading the other ones, I'm like, oh, other people think like that. It had never occurred to me. And so when I get on the Internet and Instagram, it's usually out of some pain I'm feeling for other people. My life is pretty simple. Anything I really Laid off. Like, sheer political talking. I don't do that. But I will say, like, hey, don't let's all try to not be racist. Let's all try things that, to me, are, like, super common sense and, like, just hyping us all up to do good, but it will backfire. And I'm like, dang. I thought that was a clear message, you know, it was just, like, general goodwill or, like. And what I did was just. With all the awful things happening in the world, I. I feel like I'm never doing enough. And I'm not. And honestly, I would be shocked for someone to genuinely say they are. And so what I was sharing was like, am I doing enough, or am I one of these complicit women in the sidelines? Like, maybe I'm not the evil one, but did I come along for the carpool? And so that's what I thought I was clearly saying. But I guess people thought I was pointing to myself and, like, that's me.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Like, that's me protesting this. This young girl getting to go. Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

And I was like, okay, I gotta rethink my communication skills. Because I pride myself on being a good communicator, but it was a big fail. I don't know, at the end of my life, like, yeah, if you're like, she did good interior design, whatever. But if. If I could be a part of something, like people who, you know, desegregated schools or things that really change. Like, that's what I really crave in life is that other level of the human experience. Like, I love decorating, you know, but I really crave that kind of level of change.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Cultural change. Cultural change.

[Unnamed Guest]

Impactful change. Doing something hard for myself. Like, I live in this very glossy. You know, I came from what I've shared, and now I live in this very incubated bubble. People have their problems, for sure, but in general, you know, we go to school, we go to church, we go home. We have plenty of money. We're just doing our life, you know, and we're not really getting outside of it to say, like, maybe we could be a little less comfortable so someone else can be a little more comfortable. And that's what I wrestle with now, being on the other side of economy. I guess I don't know a better way to say it, but when you grow up poor, you don't think about, what do I do with this extra money, you know? And then you grow up and you have money, and you're like, I just feel like I'm not supposed to sit on this and build an empire. I feel like I'm supposed to do something better.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Well, and I think, and I talk to a lot of people, usually off the record in our industry, who feel conflicted about our industry sometimes where the industry we all know is largely being driven by the very wealthy, the very entitled. And sometimes we feel out of step with what's being promoted or what's being held up as being important. And I struggle with that. I know you struggle with that.

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, I don't actually. That's funny because, like, I really don't because now that I've peeled back on this whole how, how the sausage is made, like my cabinet makers, my drapery work room, like, these are hard working people who are not living extravagant lives. And if there weren't people like my clients to support those industries, they wouldn't have jobs. So I don't at all. I'm, I'm not a, well, shamer. Like, I don't at all think it's, it's, it's any sort of injustice to do this level of high and interior design. Because I know all the people involved. I just bring those topics up more of like a internal reflection. And then we're like, my husband will hear this and crack up because he's like, oh, yeah, where's all your extra money? You know, because Nashville's expensive and we have kids in private school and like, we joke like we thought we'd have money and now we don't. But, you know, I think it's just more. I have clients who are very wealthy and some of the things they do with their resources is so amazing, like just really giving and giving and like helping. I have a client, Donald Miller, he has two projects in that book. And he told the, the contractor told him one day, hey man, I like your shirt. On the job site, he went and bought the contractor that shirt and handed it to him that day. And I was like, that's the kind of little bits of good that I want to be around and I want to be liked. So all of that talk of money and wealth and stuff is absolutely not reflected in who my clients are. It's more of what I'm doing with my own money.

[Stephanie Sabi]

So let's tell people where you are. You mentioned Nashville. Let's tell people where you are and what that scene is like. Because there's this perception that there's a lot going on in Nashville, right?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, it really is. It's truly nuts. So the cost of living here, it's literally Insane. I was in a meeting yesterday with a client who bought a multi million dollar lot, a couple acre lot. So they've spent that on the lot and they got a bid back for the house that is just under $5 million. And we're all like, how are we going to do it? What are we going to cut? Where are we going to budget? And I'm like, never in a million years did I think an all in $8 million house would entail a conversation about budget cuts. You know, and it's. I don't know where things have gotten so out of control, but they have.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Well, so, and, and, and was your client blown away when they got this quote for $5 million?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yep. And then I'm sharing with them the cost of drapery and things that people want in their house on the day they move in. And again, I'm very like, those are just numbers. I'm just telling you what it is, you know, and it's like people have, it's just gotten so expensive. And I look at my staff and we use terms like pay a living wage. I'm like, I mean, who can pay a living wage around here? This crap's expensive. You know, like my young people can't buy a house. Like, it's just too unattainable. Yeah. I've never lived in la. I did live in Boston for a while and I feel like 2010 Boston was way more affordable than 2025 Nashville. I mean, it's just wild.

[Stephanie Sabi]

And that's really just in the past few years or 10 years. 10 years. Yeah.

[Unnamed Guest]

So I bought my house and we live on like a 2 acre lot in a nice part of town. This is how I'm a share. But we got our house for like 740 and our house is same square footage on my street, selling right now for over $5 million in nine years. That's insane. You know?

[Stephanie Sabi]

Yeah. The sticker shock that clients are experiencing. I mean, we all know, look, it's going to be expensive to hire an interior designer and do a house from the ground up, but it's gotten so expensive that I worry it's pushing some people away.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, no, I feel like my, I haven't gotten that much more expensive.

[Stephanie Sabi]

My services have not, I really haven't.

[Unnamed Guest]

Like, it's not like if you were to do the math for what the percentage increase of the value of my home is in nine years, my rates have not kept with that. But I will say it's smarter. Like, I feel like even more so now you need to hire someone who can help you lead the way. Like we have experience and we know things that's worth, you know, things you should save on and things when a contractor suggests you should, you're like, no, no, don't do that. You know, and that's what I'm doing with this couple right now in their house. Of things that I'll just. They're like, do you think that's something we should splurge on? I'm like, yep, that's a really important thing. And I just apologize because, you know, remember when we always watch like Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous and it would be like a million dollar house like in LA, the fact that ours are 8 million, you know, stuff like that. I just look at my clients, I'm like, hey, I, I just want to say I agree, this is nuts. I'm not over here bluffing. Like it is what it is, you know, like, like I sympathize with this because this is just, I don't know. We said during COVID that it was because of COVID and the cost of lumber and everyone expects everything to turn back around, but they don't turn back around. We just constantly absorb kind of more. And if any industry has seen it, it is mine because we had tariffs, you know, back in 2020. Now we're going to have more. And it's never like, they've never been undone, they're never like rolled back. The prices like a Walmart, you know, it's like it just keeps getting more expensive. The same lamp I've specified for 10 years has had a 20 fold increase and people just agree to buy it. And I don't know where the brakes are with all that.

[Stephanie Sabi]

No, I mean, I think you're so right. And I think it's so interesting that when people talk about the price of so many things or inflation sort of rolling back, I can't think of an industry that has experienced greater inflation than in and around the home industry. And the cost of construction, the cost of all the materials that you specify.

[Unnamed Guest]

Freight, I mean, freight. Yeah, it's really what used to be something I don't even know. Like back in the day, I used to love when I was like 25, those shows that would teach you how to do things on a budget or whatever. Those shows are so grossly unrealistic now that it's, it's almost criminal because there's just no way to do this kind of stuff truly on the cheap. Like if you're paying for certified labor and you're paying for materials like it's, there's just no cheap way to do it. You know, we, we inherited a little. When my dad passed away, he had a little house near our new soccer stadium in what is now like a pretty hot part of town. And when I ran the numbers, you know, it was, it's, it's not an, a fancy part of town, but it's just as expensive to renovate his house down in that area than it was my house, you know, five miles away, because it's the same labor pool, you know, so when you're dealing with the city that's like booming like this, you're not getting some deal because you live in a part of town that has houses that are hitting a little bit lower than what the national or the, the town average is. Yeah, it's a whole thing.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Coming back to Instagram, what I want to know from you is, so some designers tell me this is my number one source of new business. And you and I have talked about. Okay, so there are the very professional looking people who present them.

[Unnamed Guest]

No, slight. Thank you, Dennis. Noted.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Unlike you, there are some people who are very careful about how they're presenting themselves. Right. And so those people tell me that.

[Unnamed Guest]

Do they get more business than me?

[Stephanie Sabi]

Well, that's what I'm, That's. You tell me. I mean, I don't know some people. So, like, some people are coming to you because they think, oh, my God, she's gonna be so fun. We're gonna be friends. Yeah, we're gonna have the best time.

[Unnamed Guest]

Not the majority, but yeah, people do come with that. That's backfired, obviously, because this is a profession, you know, it is. I don't like, I don't even follow my clients on Instagram. Like, I need you to have your own, you know, we don't need to know what you're doing all the time, you know, And I don't share what I'm doing all the time either. It's my Instagram as open it as. As it is. I'm not sharing every move my husband and I make on the weekends, you know, or where I'm. What I'm doing with my children. So people do feel like they know a lot about me, but there's actually most of my life is like absolutely not documented. I'm just chatting in my car. I did, I think I've shared this with you. I did hear. Was it you who interviewed Michael Smith about the Obama White House? Yeah, yeah. And I listened to that a long time ago. And I was sitting on the beach and I was thinking, ha, ha ha, I will never be invited to decorate a white house because what you got?

[Stephanie Sabi]

You are such a security risk, clearly, that they will not.

[Unnamed Guest]

But y'all, seriously, everyone listen. You do not hear me talk about my clients. You do not hear me talk about fails on projects. You do not hear me blast mess ups on tradesmen's. Like, I do have a line that I think if people actually looked at what I'm sharing, it's all confidential. Like, I don't. You don't even know who my clients are, you know, and so I. I don't know. I think we have to really be ourselves. And if you like me, you like me, and if you don't, you don't, you know, and we all don't need that much work to survive. Like, I'm not trying to build this huge operation, you know, we are the size we are, and I just hope enough people like us keep us in business.

[Stephanie Sabi]

But you don't feel. I mean, all joking aside, you don't feel as though your real clients, who. You're absolutely right, you don't talk about and you don't reveal. And that's all completely separate. It's not pushing them away. People aren't looking at your Instagram and going, oh, or. Or maybe you can't tell. I don't know.

[Unnamed Guest]

I don't know. I really. I'm being vulnerable right now.

[Stephanie Sabi]

How many jobs were you so close to getting? And then. Oh, and then they checked out the.

[Unnamed Guest]

Instagram and they thought, I've never been asked. I've never worked with a client who has, like a NDA or anything like that. So I don't think my typical client is that kind of client. So we've not worked for celebrities that have that kind of privacy concerns. We really work with people whose mothers were kids, with designers who really get the process because they've seen their mom do it. And it's a very much like you become an adult, you get a designer, you work with them for your whole life. And those. Those are more our relationships. But, you know, those people have the same amount of privacy I would give Justin Timberlake, you know, like, we. We don't talk about our clients. And yeah, I think that might be confusing. I don't know. Am I having an existential crisis on the show right now? This is a very pertinent topic to what my brain has been spiraling around. I think at the end of the day, I want to be more than an interior designer. I Love what I do. I feel fortunate every single day, what I do, but at the end of the day, I want to. And that's why I share my faith, too. It's just I share all the parts of me. Not like every little marital dispute and stuff like that, but, like, I'm a whole person, you know, And. And. And people who own homes are whole people, and I want people to understand that. I get that you're more than whatever the job is that's paying for you to hire me.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Well. And talk to me about sharing your faith, because you do. And there are a couple of different chapters in the book that refer to your faith. Yeah, I mean, the church costume party story.

[Unnamed Guest]

I know you love that story because I ended up working for Donna Miller. It's, like, crazy. You have to please read the words of my book. That's all I want people to. But, yeah. No, I grew up, like, on the dark side of the church. Like, I was raised by a single mom in the Baptist church, and, like, she took us, but it wasn't like we were in. We were never in. And so when I see people who feel this way, and I still go to church, and I still firmly believe what I believe, but I feel that, like, when I see people hurting because they've been hurt by the church or kicked out of the church or just all these things that people are wrestling with openly now because they have the Internet, I feel that I can relate to that because I have been that. So that's why I speak to faith and just share what I believe. I don't have the answers. You know, I don't have. I'm not really in it to, like, convert people. I mean, we're going to have a mass baptismal, obviously, in my. In my front of my studio soon. I mean, after the revolution. But my faith has gotten me through my life. It truly has. Interior design has, too. It truly has. But they're both there, and it's both this thread that's kind of woven throughout my entire story. So I felt that I wanted to share that just because it's part of who I am. Not in any sort of. Like, if you don't believe this, you're going to hell.

[Dennis Scully]

Taking a quick break to remind you that you can discover Hickory Chair at a trade showroom near you or explore its website to find inspiring collections, fabrics, finishes, and a wide range of customization options for crafting bespoke upholstery and wood pieces for your home. If you're attending High Point Market this spring, stop by their stunning showroom at 200 North Hamilton. Experience Ray Booth's new collection, Unwind in the design center and enjoy a cup of espresso, a cocktail, a free lunch and Hickory Chair's signature hospitality. For more inspiration, visit Hickorychair.com or follow along on Instagram Hickorychair. And now back to the show.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Tell me what Substack's about for you. Is it another outlet? Is it a different. Do you. Do you think differently about what you do on Substack versus what you do on Instagram or how do you think about it?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yes, for sure. For some reason, Substack is like, it's still an art to me. I don't feel compelled to get on there and build a following and follow other people. It is a one way stream of communication. And I think that's what's hard about Instagram. I feel like we can all only consume so much. Like when my mom died, I thought I'd be really, I could not handle Instagram. It's that relational side of it that's good from what we've talked about previously, but then bad when you're just an exhausted human being that can't do like two way communication anymore. And so Substack is just you and your computer and you're just writing. There's a comment section, you know, but it's not Instagram. It's not like this peppering of, you know, most time. It's just kind people. I mean, people have paid me to follow it, which is crazy because it's still free. And I'm like, I don't even know who you people are. But like, what kindness? Like that. You think my words are that interesting or relevant or, you know, beautiful to read like that is just such a kind gesture. So I'm really enjoying that. I'm trying to do one a week, but I'm already a little behind. But I don't know, there's something pure about writing. I'm not doing pictures. I'm trying to never do pictures because then it becomes an Instagram. Or I loved blogging back in the day, but I'm not interested in doing that either.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Well, and a lot of people have talked about Instagram fatigue and a lot of people have just, they're seeing their numbers change and they don't know, should I be doing more reels? Should I be sharing more?

[Unnamed Guest]

I can't do all that. I can't. And I actually like when people talk about that on social media because it's like, do we really, do we have to care. I remember years ago, I was in House Beautiful, and we both know and love Sophie, and Sophie was like, giving us all tips on how to get published. And this is laughable. She's like, it's helpful. If your clients have over 10,000 Instagram, follow 10,000, which is like, everybody has 10,000, you know, now. But at the time, that was like, the benchmark. And it will always get higher, you know, and it follow my business because I'm a businesswoman and you're a businesswoman. It's like, oh, my gosh, I can't look because you're gonna post yourself in Panama City on the beach with your kids, and that's going to be completely unrelated. And I'm gonna look at it and take it in as more information. And it's like, I just have to cut it off sometimes. Like, it's not unkind to me to, like, not follow everybody. Like, maybe their information is something you just don't want to look at all day, you know, I think they have a mute button. Now, someone told me that you don't have to, like, straight up unfollow, but guard your heart, guard your brain, guard your mind. Like, you don't watch 12 TV shows every day. And I don't think you should have to expose yourself to that much social media out of some sort of support your fellow businessman idea, you know?

[Stephanie Sabi]

I agree. I mean, and I can understand what.

[Dennis Scully]

Has led to the fatigue.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Yeah, I can. Right?

[Unnamed Guest]

I mean, like, when people are like, I've noticed I'm not getting as many views, we all go like, my page. I'm like, I want to be like, girl, stop. Don't do that. Like, it's not that important.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Don't need them.

[Unnamed Guest]

Don't do that. Don't let them own you like that. Just say, whatever. Maybe you got a post that's got 10 likes. Who cares? Just assume everyone who saw it has bad taste. That's what I do. Like, if people don't like my picture, I'm like, guess it was only people with the bad taste looking today.

[Stephanie Sabi]

That's just the way to spin it. All right, let's talk about your design business. And I want to talk about your retail store as well, which sort of grew out of this. And I think think it's a beloved shop. And people really, they think they're going to get to come and hang out with you. I think they kind of do.

[Unnamed Guest]

I thought I would hide and be like, ugh, you know, and I'll hear people's voices. I'M like, I'm here. It's me. I'm behind the wall. And also I'm like, don't talk about me. I'm here. I'm behind the wall. We had some people come in one time after like a boozy brunch and they were just like talking about everything on the shelf. And I would say, hello, please don't say anything that's going to hurt my feelings. I'm back here. But yeah, no, my business. I do interior design. Actually. I am not just an author.

[Stephanie Sabi]

I have heard that. I have heard that you also do interior design. Yes.

[Unnamed Guest]

And I love my job so much and feel so privileged to get to do this every day. I started, I went to college for this and started in commercial and did that for seven years before going out on my own in 2010. I mean, it is a real pinch me kind of job. I mean, it is hard. Like it is, is 10 design and 90 business for sure. And I do feel like we've reached this really sweet spot within our company where we've been able to do these large scale homes, soup to nuts, for the past like three to four years. And we're good at, like, we're good at it. We got, we have this machine, we have this process. I talk to you about processes and I just, I'm excited to like, I've always been confident as a designer, but I am now this. I'm confident as running a project, running a business, knowing how to, you know, and laughing at what things we've done in the past. I'm like, oh, my gosh. We were just, we had no clue what we were doing. You know, we talked today about, I told the bookkeeper that during COVID I thought my bookkeeper was ordering all this stuff and she was ordering it. But if you order for interior design, you know, it's not like Amazon. You send a po. They send a sales agreement, you send it back with a check. And we missed that last part with the check during COVID for a solid eight weeks. And I was like, hey, do we have tracking on, you know, all this stuff? And they were like, oh, we never mailed those checks. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm going to die of a heart attack. You know, and it's fun to look back and be like, we made it, y'all. We, we grew, we, we changed. We've built, we've built a company. So I'm proud of that.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Yeah. And I mean, and as you say, you've so we've We've joked a lot in this conversation about your not having plans, but when it comes to design, it's planning, planning, planning. And you do have this process, and you don't have to reveal trade secrets, but, I mean, speak to your. Speak to your process a little bit.

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh, you know, there's no secrets with me. Well, I. Yeah. So, I mean, I don't think our. Our process is all that unique. Like, I don't, you know, as far as how we bring in new clients and, and, you know, we use Pinterest in a certain way. We use it as a. A saving data tool more than just an inspiration. So we will save stuff there as a pin because it. You can click back to the website easily. And then from there, we will take those, you know, cull through selections, and we will put it into studio webware, which is what a lot of interior designers use. But the thing that we've started doing in the past two years is we've used Vimeo and we record our processes of. Of that step and 20 million other steps, how we set up our CAD files. And that was something that I was freaking out in the middle of the night with staff turnover and just like, oh, my gosh, every time I hire someone new, I have to take two weeks off of productivity just to get them onboarded. And so I'm sure I'm not the first one to think of this, but so we started making these videos, and we have a little webcam, and we just pass it around. And so we have this library of everything we do and the way we do it, recording our screens and our voices, is walking through it. And now I sleep through the night.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Well, and I'm curious, getting back to the things that you share and you talk to me about this notion of you try to be so open with clients so that they can feel safe, for lack of a better word. Right. In really opening up to you and revealing to you how they really live and not pretending maybe that they're fancier than they actually are or that they.

[Unnamed Guest]

Live a more formal or structured fancy. I feel like you're, like, dumbing it down for me. Thank you, Dennis. Yeah, I did share that. And that is something like I come with my arms open of, like, who I am and where I come from and how I live, you know, And I just hope that clients feel safe with me. I think, think I attract that kind of client. And that's a part of my Instagram personality, is I track the clients who are attracted to me. And, you know, I have Friends that have these very shiny things. Their clienteles are shiny. They're shiny. I went to a party recently where my framer, my picture framer who had on Skechers. And no offense to Skechers, but Ann wasn't even trying to look hot at all. And I was trying to look like medium hot. Okay. I had clogs on. That was like fancy for me. And she looked at me at this party where everyone was just very in white and like jushed up and she's like, you know, it's not like me and you, Stephanie. I'm like. And I'm actually trying to be hot. You're not even trying. But I attract people like Ann and I, you know, it's just. It's who I am. It's what I'm good at. If you, if you have a need to be the fanciest person on your block, you're probably not calling me. And I'm okay with that. That. But the people who know that like full set stone means you are rich af, like, that's the. That's the kind of wealth I want flex around this time. Like, don't show me your fancy car. Don't you know, I don't need gold everything. Like, show me cedar siding with full set stone. Like, I want, I want. I want doors that are not pre board. You know, I want them to be bored on site with the door hardware with the little teeny back plate. Because. Because if anybody knew about money, they would know. People who do that, that costs way more. Who knew? You know, but that is the kind of wealth flexing I would like everyone to know. It's like a subtle. It's like nobody knows, but we just spent ten extra thousand dollars on those doors.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Exactly. These doors cost way more than they had to. Because that's the kind of wealth flexing that we want to be the signature of our design.

[Unnamed Guest]

I think you're poor, but you're not. You know, that's my specialty.

[Stephanie Sabi]

No, that's Stephanie's. If you know, you know, it's. Yeah. I actually think that's great. Which leads me to my next question that I want to talk with you about, which is. And I don't know how to best describe this, but we're having a lot of conversations recently about the beige ification of design or this sort of. This sort of monochromatic look that gets served a up to us. Right. Algorithmically. And there's been a lot of conversation recently about just trying to.

[Dennis Scully]

Show the.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Client in the process and just to I don't know. Your design style is very different than that. And I wonder if you can speak to this.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, it's very popular in Nashville, what you're describing. I was thinking about this a lot this week, and I. I really think that the homes we crave as adults, when we can afford to buy homes and decorate, are all born out of, like, our life experience. And I feel like a lot of people grew up in the 80s and 90s with a lot of clutter and a lot of stuff and a lot of, you know, things that they're escaping. And so those. That, that's. That home speaks to them. So there's no shame in that. It's just. Yeah, it's what people are comfortable in. You know, I grew up in a Cracker Barrel and I love junk everywhere. You know, it does not give me hives. It's a story, you know, we like. And I'm not joking. I worked for a hot minute for the CEO of Cracker Barrel here, and she took me into the back room where all the stuff is like the warehouse. And I was like, holy crap. Like, this is my heaven. And she looked at me and she's like, are you being serious right now? I was like, I'm being dead serious. Like, if you told seven year old Mace you'd get to go to the Cracker Barrel warehouse of stuff in Chotchkis, I would have been like, you're joking. But it's that storytelling element and being okay with like, committing to who you are. And I think so many people haven't like, settled into their story yet, so, like an all white box feels right because they're still figuring out who they are. My client is. That's not my client.

[Stephanie Sabi]

That's not your client.

[Unnamed Guest]

That's not my client. Nobody wants me that likes that look, and that's okay. There are tons of us. That's the beauty of interior design. There's all this argument, you know, these magazine articles trying to kind of pit us all against each other. We don't want that. We need people who are in this lane and I'm in that lane, you know, I'm in a lane that may not be the most universally popular, but I. I love this lane. And like I said, it doesn't take much for me to be busy. We're not a huge firm. So I feel very little like, kind of, of competitiveness or any sort of flare up when there are these like, trend announcements. I'm like, oh, yeah, whatever. You gotta sell some magazines, you know.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Well, I mean, so the other day we were talking about dopamine design.

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

[Stephanie Sabi]

So our y'all love it.

[Unnamed Guest]

Color trenching. I see all these words y'all been making up. Yeah, yeah.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Well, I, you know, I try to keep people informed about the micro trends.

[Unnamed Guest]

You do an amazing job. We are, yeah. Thank you for, for educating us.

[Stephanie Sabi]

No, no, no, absolutely. But I mean, what I really wonder. And some people are talking and writing today about all of this being sort of a distraction from what great design is all about. And that really great design is timeless. And great design is deeply personal. And of course, it's not really about trends. And of course, it's about sitting in someone' actually watching the light travel through their house throughout. Throughout the course of the day and. Right.

[Unnamed Guest]

And understanding to an audible book. Yeah.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Yes. What it, what it really is about is sitting in that living room and seeing what time the light best hits that room.

[Unnamed Guest]

I miss that kind of stuff. We got into that, like, in college, obviously. And then commercial design gets real into the Woo. Woo. But residential, they're like, what? I'm like, the concept behind this design. They're like, where does my, where does my chair go? You know? Yeah, I, I don't know that that's an interesting. I just really, really try. I say this, and I'm full of. You know what? Because you've seen me drive around Nashville and post some of these homes. These homes are by developers and they are doing it to make money. And that bothers me because it's what my children will grow up in. I really try hard not to go after people who are building their own home the way they want to build it, that is their prerogative. So if someone likes beige and, and, and minted art on the wall and a futon with a big screen TV and they're happy, who am I to judge, you know? You got it figured out. Yeah. I don't care what people do. I. I just hope that what I do speaks to somebody, you know, And I think it will. It does. You know, gotta rethink my Instagram, apparently, and maybe not be so crazy, but.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Well, I, I don't know if that's the takeaway message here at all. I mean, I think it's gonna be so interesting when you start going on a book tour and traveling around the country. Right. And showing up and hearing from a lot more people. I'm sure you had a lot of people come up to you. When we did a panel together at High Point, your panelists loved being with you and loved, loved meeting You. I thought it was so fun that they hadn't met you before and just jumped right in and right in the.

[Unnamed Guest]

Deep end of the world. I think the whole thing is funny because it's kind of, like, fake, you know, Like, I do interior design, and that's my job. And there's so many people that do interior design, and they're so good at it, and they'll never have that. Like, they'll never be on your show and they'll never be on a panel because they're just like, don't choose to be as loud as me. Like, my popularity is based on my loudness.

[Stephanie Sabi]

And that is why you're on.

[Unnamed Guest]

It is factually, like, we should say. I asked to be on the show several times for the. I don't know how many years, and Dennis always like, what will we talk about? I'm like, what will we not talk about? You know, I've never been afraid to ask for things like this, but it's just funny that people would regard me with any sort of celebrity because of it, because it's not. It's just funny. I don't know. It's not real. It's just the Internet, you know?

[Stephanie Sabi]

Yeah. So many of the things that the trade and brands are trying to do to better cater to designers. If there's one thing that has come out of the last few years, it's that so many brands have woken up to the importance, the significance, the opportunity of working with designers. Fred and Aidan worked on a big, long piece just recently about trade programs and what designers are looking for. I'm curious, what is relevant from all of that to you? Is trade exclusivity important to you, or does that not really matter so much? What is important to you?

[Unnamed Guest]

I do feel like trade exclusivity, it's like an endangered species. But it is sad to see some of these vendors pop up on sites like Wayfair. Vendors that, to me, have had that kind of, like, I remember when I got. I don't want to say anything brain, specifically, that I remember one fabric vendor, when I got an account with them when I was living in Boston, and really, it was like a Pretty Woman moment. You know, they were, like, kind of snobby. And then I got an account, and they're kind of nice, you know, And I was like, I made it. And then like, 10 years later, I saw them on Wayfair, and I was like, what the heck? Like, that was a big deal to me to get that account. And I don't know. We Just really look for vendors that are going to help us when the bottom falls out. And, and that, that, that sort of doesn't come to the light until the bottom falls out. So when a piece of upholstery comes in with a big rip down the back or you know, just all little things like you will never, you could write a whole encyclopedia called things that could go wrong with interior design and it will happen. And we are the tie that binds all the trades, all the furniture, the client, like our hand is in all of it. And the, the opportunity for mistake is just huge. And so when people make comments like, your job must be so fun, I like, oh, hold on there. You know, Last year I bought a $35,000 furniture package. I owned it until we had a tent sale last October. But we mismeasured by six inches in a theater room. And the client, she wanted to go and there wasn't much I could say. I said, it's a little bit tighter, but I think it works. And she said, nope. And I took it back. And, and that's the kind of stuff, you know, I don't talk about that on social media because my client serves privacy. I don't want to look like an idiot, you know, but those kind of things happen all the time. And so when we have vendors when it is, you know, the fault of the, the company and they stick with this and they don't try to say like, well, I can't help you. You know, it's just standing by your man, you know, good customer service. Like, it's all pretty basic. I don't need like some beautiful finished presentation. I don't need a chain set. Like I need to call you and you give me an accurate, accurate quote, an accurate lead time and then stick with me when you know what hits the fan.

[Dennis Scully]

We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Ernesta. Ernesta's designer quality custom size rugs are the foundation to an elevated space. Help your clients transform their homes by joining Ernesta's trade program. As a member of the Ernesta trade program, you'll get preferred pricing, free unlimited 12x12 samples, and dedicated services such as a personal account manager and a trade only website. To learn more about joining this exclusive program, head to ernesta.com boh that's ernesta.com boh and now back to the show.

[Stephanie Sabi]

So recently we were talking about this big survey that came out. They talked to a bunch of interior designers and architects and builders and it's a big state of the industry and in it. One of the things that they talked about was tell us what some of the biggest challenges are facing your business today. And a lot of interior designers talked about costs as you and I were just talking about earlier. A lot of designers and many wrote to me in preparing to discuss that, saying, oh my God, that is driving people away in droves from my business because I give them a quote on whether it's a new build, as we were just talking about earlier, or even just some construction on their home. And often it's two or three times what they thought.

[Unnamed Guest]

I know I met with an architect yesterday and I was like, I hate being a dream crusher. I genuinely hate being a dream crusher because I feel like I'm not an over promiser. I will tell you all the terrible things that may happen and then I will pad the. We don't estimate what it's going to cost to furnish a house on the front end, so we don't get into projects like that. We'll give numbers from a previous project that is in similar level and we'll say this is what that project cost. So I don't crush dreams in that way. But when I was growing my business, I always thought, oh, you know, when you get to these full soup to nuts houses, like, you've made it, you know, that's the goal. You've made it. Like you, you don't do the little stuff anymore. And I was talking to a couple of friends this morning and I was like, y'all, when you have your year laid out and you have an $8 million project go on hold, what do you do? Like, I don't want to take more work than my staff can do out of consideration for them being humans and having a life. And so we build, you know, we look at our year and we take what we, we can take and we begin the jobs. And then again, it's in the hands of God. Like, you get to a phase and you get a bid and the client can't afford it. And they're like, we need several months to think about it. And I'm like, what am I going to do with my staff for several months? You know, that is my hardest thing. And I, I don't know the answer. And I put it out there on the Internet. I had a friend this morning say, I, you got to keep your eggs in several baskets, you know, so I'm exploring that. But I do think there's this like, like, you're supposed to be always on this, like, upward Trajectory mentality. Like, I. You know, the shinier, the bigger, the better the chase. But I'm trying to pull back and say, like, when the shiny hits the fan, you know, when that stuff hits the fan, what do we do to keep our. Our staff busy and run a responsible business? We track all our hours. I'm big on day to day. Like, I think I'm actually a lot more businessy than anyone gives me credit for. But, you know, we bill by the hour and keep a very thorough record of what our tasks are. And so my staff is required to meet a certain billable rate. Or then we have to sit down and look like, do we need you on staff if you're not billable? And it's not their fault when the project they've been working on suddenly gets put on hold. And I'm like, well, how do I. How do I do a review for you? Because I haven't even given you billable work this week. You know, stuff like that. So it's hard to be a business owner. I. I think I've just kind of skipped through it like rainbows and butterflies until maybe this year. And this year has just not. 25, 24 was just kind of like it was the end of the COVID I mean, we were. I look back at our books and just what we were selling, what we were being hired for, it was just bananas. At one point, I had three times the staff of what I currently have. And as far as I can see, that's not. That's not the case anymore. And so we're kind of like, I'm in a little bit of a. Like, oh, I thought that's just the way it would always be. I thought it was this upward trajectory forever, and now we're in this. Real estate is sitting longer in Nashville. Interest rates are high. It's affecting my business, as I see it. But then what do we do in the meantime, you know?

[Stephanie Sabi]

Well, exactly.

[Dennis Scully]

Exactly.

[Stephanie Sabi]

And those are the very real challenges. And I think people thought we were going to be past these challenges somehow. We thought rates were going to be lower. We thought that housing prices were going to come down in November.

[Unnamed Guest]

We thought this. Yeah, okay. That's what I thought, too, because everybody kept telling me, like, oh, just wait. Just wait until the election. That stuff will all change. And I'm like, hey, y'all, it's almost March. Like, when are we. When is this gonna change? Because I want it to be Covid again. I want 2020 back, y'all house. And then you call me. It's a mess.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Well, and. And. And I remember pre Covid, every. Every designer that I spoke to said they were doing something in Nashville.

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh, really?

[Stephanie Sabi]

And, yes. I mean, when I was working in the D and D building, everybody that would come through the showroom would, oh, yeah, no, no. We got a big project in Nashville.

[Unnamed Guest]

Oh, because they were moving from LA and New York here, right?

[Stephanie Sabi]

Yes.

[Unnamed Guest]

Is that not the case anymore?

[Stephanie Sabi]

Well, I mean, I think, as you were just saying, houses are sitting on the market longer. We just got some of the numbers from the national association of Home Builders, and they've. They've lowered their expectations, and they. They don't see a strong market in. In many parts of the. Of the country.

[Unnamed Guest]

Well, good. I'm not. I'm not saying good, but I'm glad it's not just me. I'm like, I don't know any data. I'm like, hey, is everybody okay? Or is it. Am I feeling it by myself? That's one thing about interior design is we all are a little. Even my dearest friends were a little puffed up, and we lit. We are not real vulnerable about, like, that kind of stuff. I feel like people are like, I'm super busy. Are you not super busy? I'm super busy. And I'm like, I mean, we've been busier. Like, we've. The call volume has been much higher than it currently is. So. Good to hear, but also bad to hear, I guess.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Well, nobody know exactly. But. And I. And I. And I appreciate you being open about that. And listen, I mean, talking with Benjamin Norieg Ortiz just recently, and he talked about how he scaled up his firm for a project that in the end didn't come to fruition and had to let all these people go was this big hotel project, and it didn't happen. And he said, you know what? I'm never doing that again. I'm never scaling up like that for something that may or may not happen. And to your point, a project gets put on hold. I've had numerous designers tell me the client gets the bid back for the house. And they said, oh, you know what? We need to sit with this for a while. While.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yep, That's. That's where I am right now, where we've designed and we've done our part, and we're ready to roll. We're ready to buy that furniture. And it's like, you know, and they're like, oh, there's no budget for furniture. I'm like, wait, what? That's like, my main part. Yeah. It's hard. I in many ways feel like I just started this and in other ways feel like I've been doing it for 200 years. You know, it's like, it's a very humbling field, even right down to, like, we don't do traditional advertising. We are a service business that's based mainly on word of mouth. And it's kind of like scowled upon to do this, like, traditional marketing. And that's weird, you know, so you're literally like a farmer praying for rain. Like, hey, I'll give me some work maybe. Like, you don't seek it out, you know, like, there's no sales call leads and stuff like that. So it's a very kind of paralyzing feeling when you do feel that slowdown and you have these staff members relying on you and you don't feel like there are active measures to take to, you know, swing the pendulum the other way.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Were there ever. Did you ever do a form of marketing? Did you ever.

[Unnamed Guest]

I can't really like the. I wish. This is the most painful, like, confession of my interview here is. Is after 2020, I built a dollhouse on Instagram. And I had more people call me for professional interior design services from building a dollhouse on Instagram than I have had for any show house, any article in Veranda magazine, any. Anything, any Anything that felt like the right professional thing. I had Barbie dolls dancing in a kitchen that I modeled off of a Duval kitchen, you know, and my phone was, like, blowing up. And it kills me because, I mean, I went to college, you know, like, there should be different metrics. And so I don't understand the world anymore. I don't know what's right to be on Instagram. Do I be professional or do I build another dollhouse? You know, I don't know. It feels very. I'm a control freak, and that feels very much out of my control, and I very much dislike that a part of this profession.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Do you want this book to help.

[Dennis Scully]

You in that capacity?

[Stephanie Sabi]

Do you want this book to.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. I mean, yes. I will say yes. If it doesn't happen, I will not be surprised. Because just being honest, for any designers who are, like, chasing this sort of, you know, publication spotlight thing, I was in Southern Living in October and Veranda in December and January, and we have not had a single cough related to those two. And if that didn't do it, I no longer understand, like, marketing, like, you know, kind of non marketing marketing. Like being in a magazine that you, like, didn't pay to be in, you know, it feels like the purest form of like coincidental press. Right. Like, it's like, you know, it was happenstance. I didn't even try. Look at me. I just ended up in this magazine. And, and that doesn't do it. It doesn't do it. And I don't, I don't know how. I don't know. Yeah, I have no tips.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Well, so, I mean, to your point, does that, you being published in these magazines and not getting a response, does that speak to the time or does that speak to the reduced impact of media today? Does it speak to this confusing landscape? People are so distracted. I mean, is it the timing?

[Unnamed Guest]

I mean, is it my unprofessional Instagram? I don't know.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Is it your unprofessional Instagram that's driving people away?

[Unnamed Guest]

Michael Smith is my new role model. I don't know. I wish I knew. I do. I really think, because I talk a lot on Instagram. I'm not getting the calls I did in 2020. No, my Instagram was not any more professional back then. So we'll go ahead and scratch that off. We'll alleviate myself of the burden of wondering, have I gone too far? No, I was a weirdo back then. It's fine. I don't know. I don't know what's up. I wish you should tell me. I don't know. I feel like you're the professional. Professional. We need to know. Mainly because you always assume it's you. Like, I don't think it's my Instagram. I think I've done beautiful work the past four years. We put a book together and. But if you would have told little, you know, 31 year old Stephanie, who worked in the corner of her Boston bedroom, that you could be in all these magazines and that you could have a published book and that you would still be like, oof. We need, we need more work.

[Dennis Scully]

Work.

[Unnamed Guest]

We need more work to keep this feeling like we're going at the rate I would like to go. I would be like, what? Like, that's crazy. You know, and. And I just haven't figured it out. I don't know. I had a marketing person call me a couple years ago and I was like, worst sales pitch ever. She's like, yeah, I just want to let you know, nobody's heard of you. I've asked people around town and they've never even heard of you.

[Stephanie Sabi]

And I was like, that's what she said to you?

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah. And like, she could help. And I was like, I Would rather go out of business. No, thank you. You know, like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I have a friend who does traditional, like, magazine marketing, like where she buys an ad. And I feel like that's not as popular these days as. Whereas it was fine to do that back then. We all pride ourselves a lot on saying, I've never advertised, I've never advertised. It's all just word of mouth and people are lying if they don't know that they puff up when they say that. Because we all puff up, including me. We're like, like it just happened. And, and it's fine. Good for us. But also what happens when you do need to advertise? Like, what's the right way to do it? And are we somehow like, not as sought after or like high level? Because we just want to make sure, like the person who doesn't do Instagram actually knows we exist, you know, like, that has crossed my mind that I'm talking to a lot of people that wouldn't be the client, that my Instagram doesn't appeal to the type of client that would hire me as well. And so I don't know. We have looked at some, some traditional marketing stuff too this year. As far as like putting out ads in magazines, I don't know. But if they're not getting it in veranda for free, I'm not sure they care exactly.

[Stephanie Sabi]

If they're writing us up in Veranda.

[Unnamed Guest]

And. Yeah, I don't know.

[Stephanie Sabi]

And it's. Yeah. Well, I mean, again, I think how much of this speaks to the time that we're in. Funny enough, right. As Covid began, we started putting together programs preparing people for this recession and this industry collapse that everybody in the moment thought was coming. Right. And we reached out to Corey Damon Jenkins, who has the famous story of knocking on hundreds of doors before he gets that first project. And he was going to help guide us through this challenging time in the industry. I had designers crying to me on the phone telling me they were gonna have to let go of their entire staff, they were gonna have to close their business. And then in a heartbeat, right. The busiest the industry has ever been and PS Perhaps will ever be again.

[Unnamed Guest]

In our lifetime, which is hard to wrestle with. I don't wanna be that again. I wanna go back. Take me back.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Exactly. Well, you and everybody else.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Stephanie Sabi]

And the thing is, and I really do think it's entirely possible that we are never going to have that situation again. And to your point of all these People who moved to Nashville, all these people who bought all these homes, all these people who drove all those prices up.

[Dennis Scully]

Did that reach a peak? Did that climax?

[Unnamed Guest]

I. For other homeowners, like, it's just very. It's unattainable. Wait, so we're never going back to the COVID days again? I'm still digesting that. You know what's sad?

[Stephanie Sabi]

Do you need a moment with that?

[Unnamed Guest]

I need a moment with. Because here's the thing. Okay, that was designer boot camp. That was for designers like me who had been, like, okay, busy, but, like, we're gonna hold your feet to the fire, and we're gonna give you lead times that are, like, 30 weeks, and you're gonna have to survive. And so it sharpened me so much the COVID years, and now I feel so strong. It's like, I don't have the same kind of work that I have done to flex the skills that I've honed, you know, and we have work. I don't want any of my current clients to hear that you are not work. You are work. But we had four times the work during COVID And I think often if. If Gibbs Smith would have called me to write a book this year, had I already pushed all these projects in other ways, I wouldn't have the material. Like, I won't have nine full home projects ready to shoot in. I don't. A long time, another eight years. You know, like, it. It's just different.

[Stephanie Sabi]

And listen, I mean, I. I don't want to be a downer. I. I'm eager for the industry to. To turn the corner. Many people thought survive to 20, and this was supposed to be thrive. 25 was all about thrive. And Cyrus Laloy told me the other day, I need to come up with a rhyme for 26 now, because, no.

[Unnamed Guest]

I don't want another battle here. We got more time.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Because it's not thrive in 25. He thinks, once again, it's survive 25 and then pick up sticks in 26. I mean, we need to come up with.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, I don't know. I know. I hope you know. I have a daughter who wants to do interior design. She is only 7, but she has said since she was, like, 3 years old, she wants to be an interior designer. And so it gives me perspective of, like, maybe I'm not doing this for myself. Maybe my highs and lows are just building a business for her to run one day. And so it makes it all seem, like, have a little bit more purpose, because if I thought I was Going to do this and then just like retire and dump it on the ground. Because I. It is so much work to build a company and establish your ways of doing things and a portfolio and all these things. It's like it would feel so wasteful and to maybe. And you know, she's going to start her own firm. It's going to be like Cora savvy in tears and she's like, I don't want your firm. But the thought of a child coming in and being able to learn from this and take over, it makes it all feel like. I'll be like, oh, let me tell you about 2020 when your mom went on Lexapro but then made the most money she's ever made in her entire life.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Exactly. And, and I, and I think, I think a lot of designers and I think, listen, a lot of the trade companies and the retail, they're all, they all went on Lex Pro and got through and got through those years and, and yes, and we made it through and they're all wanting those years back.

[Unnamed Guest]

Good to hear. I really didn't know this. I work in a little, little silo and I'm like, like, oh, we're all feeling this. This is so refreshing to me because my Instagram is a one way conversation and people aren't sharing this kind of stuff. So I love, I love that, but I don't love it. But I love that we're all in it together.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Let's tell people when Interiors of a Storyteller comes out. When does it come out?

[Unnamed Guest]

March 25th.

[Stephanie Sabi]

March 25th. All right, well, look, for that you will laugh, you'll cry, you will get to know Stephanie so much more. And I think you will love and admire her even more than so many of your fans already do.

[Unnamed Guest]

Fans? Let's call my friends. I don't have fans.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Okay, well, you have a lot of friends and I appreciate all of them reaching out to me in the way that they did. And they're excited to hear from you. So I hope we delivered a show. I felt so much pressure about this show because I felt like, felt like I want to give people the Stephanie what they want. Yeah, exactly. I want to.

[Unnamed Guest]

No, I think people, I mean, I think people are even curious about you and I being friends. Like I told you that that was brought up when I was in London. They're like, how did you get to know Dennis? And I'm like, oh, Dennis, we go, we go way back.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Yeah, me and Denny, we're old, but.

[Unnamed Guest]

We have met in real life. We have had lunch. Like we do know each other. It's a beautiful thing. It makes the world small. You and I would not be friends. Sophie and I would not have. You know, it's just. It's great. As much as I've said, it's not. There are so many wonderful things about social media.

[Stephanie Sabi]

I. I completely agree. And if social media did nothing more than make us friends, I'm incredibly grateful for it.

[Unnamed Guest]

Aw, thanks, Dennis.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Yeah, no, I really appreciate it, and I'm thrilled to finally get to have you on the show. And I thank you for all of this.

[Unnamed Guest]

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[Dennis Scully]

Thanks for listening.

[Stephanie Sabi]

If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us [e-mail] where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join.

[Dennis Scully]

Our BoH Insider community for access to.

[Stephanie Sabi]

Online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a [e-mail] if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.