Studio Four's Stacy Waggoner on what tariffs have revealed about high-end fabric

Summary

Business of Home Podcast Episode: Studio Four's Stacy Waggoner on What Tariffs Have Revealed About High-End Fabric
Host: Dennis Scully
Guest: Stacy Waggoner, Studio Four
Date: January 5, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a deep-dive conversation between Dennis Scully and Stacy Waggoner, the founder of Studio Four, a renowned New York fabric showroom. Their talk spans Stacy’s storied career in textiles, the evolution and acceptance of digitally printed textiles, the realities of launching and running a multiline showroom, and the multifaceted impact of international tariffs and global supply chain changes on the high-end fabric and rug business. Stacy’s firsthand insights into working with celebrated icons, starting a business during the financial crisis, and adapting to industry changes make this episode essential listening for anyone interested in the inner workings of the design fabric world.

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Key Topics and Insights

1. Early Career Influences & Textiles Legacy

• Working with Jack Lenor Larsen ([03:29]–[07:05])

  • Stacy recounts a decade with the textile luminary Jack Lenor Larsen, describing it as "like being in a textile master's program."
  • She details the rigors and atmosphere of annual product launches, how each new collection demanded both technical understanding and creative storytelling.
  • Quote:
    “I worked for him for 10 years... it was like being in a textile master’s program. Every year we would have a big fall launch... and then you'd start in on, okay, here are the technical aspects of it. This is what you need to know.” (Stacy, [03:39])

• Passion for How Things Are Made

  • Stacy expresses her love for the production side: "I love a factory; I love seeing just the inner stuff." ([05:01])

2. Launching Studio Four in the Wake of Crisis

• From the 2008 Crash to a Fresh Start ([08:16]–[10:00])

  • The collapse of AM Collections and the 2008 financial crisis precipitated the founding of Studio Four.
  • Stacy humorously recounts cashing in her depleted 401k:
    “I cashed in the rest of my 401k, which is something I do not recommend, but it worked.” (Stacy, [09:13])

• Humble Beginnings and Building a Distinctive Collection

  • They started with a select few lines—rugs, textiles, and wallpaper with a unique angle (notably Florence Broadhurst’s collection, which brought cachet and international relationships).

3. The Digital Printing Revolution

• Industry Skepticism Turns into Innovation ([13:21]–[16:57])

  • Early digital printing was treated with suspicion and dismissed as “novelty.” But pioneers like Eskayel (Shannon) proved its creative power.
  • Stacy, self-described "textile snob," admits, “Oh my gosh, I'm a textile snob from way back..." ([13:39])

• Digital vs. Traditional Printing ([15:31])

  • Digital’s low setup costs encourage experimentation, but production costs can be higher than screen printing.
  • Digital allows for complexity that traditional methods can’t easily replicate, but there’s a tendency for market oversaturation:
    “The ability to produce became so widespread that everybody could do it... But... producing wallpapers and marketing them and selling them—it’s a business.” (Stacy, [16:57])

• Aesthetics and Curation

  • Noted the risk of digital making it “too easy” to create generic or uninspired patterns. Curation and quality still matter.

4. Sampling: U.S. vs. Europe

• Sampling Demands in the U.S. ([17:43]–[19:37])

  • The American model requires voluminous, generous textile samples—unlike in Europe where purchasing decisions are made in store.
  • Quote: “It is impossible to overestimate the need for samples in the US market.” (Stacy, [17:44])

• Guidance for Small Lines

  • Studio Four specializes in helping emerging lines understand the U.S. market’s unique demands and pacing. Success often takes longer than expected; setting expectations is key.

5. Managing Expectation and Nurturing New Lines

• Supporting Emerging Designers ([20:57]–[22:16])

  • Stacy outlines how lines take time to gain traction and why patience is essential.
  • New lines are often eager for quick results, but she notes “lines take a little while to hit... managing the expectations of that” is an ongoing process.

• Print-to-Order as a Business Model ([22:16]–[23:23])

  • Digital printing allows for low-inventory, on-demand production, increasing flexibility and reducing waste.

6. Tariffs, Supply Chain Realities, and Globalization

• Import Challenges: Even ‘Domestic’ Production Relies on Imports ([30:38]–[31:29])

  • Even U.S.-produced goods rely on imported raw materials like Belgian linen.
  • “Virtually every fabric line... that produces in the U.S. is produced on imported goods.” (Stacy, [30:38])

• The Big Tariff Squeeze ([31:29]–[34:47])

  • Recent changes removed the “de minimis” exemption, making small shipments from overseas subject to hefty tariffs (25–50% for some countries).
  • Tariff costs are sometimes line-itemed or rolled into prices—something Stacy dislikes as it hides true costs and makes price increases "sticky."
  • Quote: “World geopolitics really get involved with my little business here.” (Stacy, [32:28])

• Rugs: The Biggest Piece of Business ([32:35]–[33:44])

  • Rugs now account for over half of Studio Four’s revenue due to their high ticket prices, despite long production times and now-unpredictable import duties.

• Adaptation and Resiliency ([34:47]–[38:57])

  • Despite increased costs, customers remain remarkably resilient:
    “There’s less price sensitivity than there might be in other sectors...” (Stacy, [34:48])
  • The industry, Stacy suggests, may now be “numb” (“Stockholm syndrome”) to tariffs ([37:47]).

• Mixing High and Low, Navigating Shifts

  • Studio Four aims for a range—luxury hand-knotted Nepalese rugs and more accessible broadlooms—balancing exclusivity with wider appeal.

7. Curatorial Approach and What Defines Studio Four

• Studio Four’s Signature ([39:23]–[42:13])
  • Every collection must have “something compelling”—an originality and a strong designer’s hand.
  • Quote: “There is a personality behind every line that we have...There has to be something in common that we both like...that gets us into the people behind the lines.” (Stacy, [39:23])

8. Wallpaper: Timeless Appeal

• Wallpaper "Trends" & British Influence ([42:47]–[44:36])
  • The supposed ebb and flow in wallpaper’s popularity is overblown: “Is wallpaper back in? I’m like, still? Yeah, it’s still here.” ([42:47])
  • The U.K. makes wallpaper more accessible; DIY allure may make wallpaper seem more democratic, but installation is best left to pros.

9. On Pantone, Bouclé, and Embracing Color

• Pantone’s Color of the Year, White Walls & Bouclé ([45:02]–[47:56])
  • Stacy quips: “Paint those walls with Cloud Dancer and then cover them up with wallpaper.” ([45:30])
  • She resists minimalist, all-white trends, advocating for layered color and eclecticism:
    “I want layers and layers and layers of design and color and it all goes together and it’s all weird and wonderful.” ([47:44])

10. What Has Really Changed in the Industry?

• AI, Retail, and the End Consumer ([48:37]–[53:53])

  • Stacy sees limited, if any, impact of AI on design and curation, though she acknowledges room for systems and marketing improvements.
  • She describes Studio Four’s cautious approach to retail—protecting trade relationships, offering select ready-made items (pillows), but focusing mainly on B2B trade.
  • Quote: “I don’t see [AI] yet. I don’t know... I think it’s still such an old-fashioned thing.” ([48:37])

• Retail Expansion and Consumer Engagement (Pillows, Small Goods)

  • The “cash and carry” challenge: Studio Four’s focus is on serious, long-term sales over high-volume small items.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Digital Printing Skepticism:
  “Don’t worry about being tactful here, Stacy.” (Dennis, [14:15])
  “Garbage in and garbage out. There you go.” (Stacy, [14:17])

• On Tariffs and Geopolitics:
  “World geopolitics really get involved with my little business here, you know.” (Stacy, [32:28])

• On Wallpaper’s Staying Power:
  “People always say to me, oh, is wallpaper back in? I’m like, still? Yeah, it’s still here.” (Stacy, [42:48])

• On Personal Taste vs. Minimalism:
  “I would like to think that I could be this minimalist person... but yeah, it’s not me. I want layers and layers and layers of design and color and it all goes together and it’s all weird and wonderful. Someone... said my apartment looked like an explosion at the souk. I took it as a compliment.” (Stacy, [47:44])

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Timestamps for Important Sections

• [03:29] — Working for Jack Lenor Larsen: Education by immersion, technical and creative sales mastery.
• [09:13] — Starting Studio Four post-2008, scraping together capital, scrappy beginnings.
• [13:21] — The emergence of digital printing and early industry skepticism.
• [17:44] — The critical (and often misunderstood) importance of sampling in the U.S. market.
• [22:16] — Print-to-order as a flexible, efficient business model.
• [30:38] — Tariffs and their consequences, even for “domestic” production.
• [32:35] — “Rugs are over 50% of our business.”
• [39:23] — Curating Studio Four: What makes a line stand out.
• [42:48] — The myth of wallpaper’s cyclical popularity.
• [45:30] — Pantone’s color of the year and irreverent advice.
• [47:44] — Color, pattern, and Stacy’s “explosion at the souk” aesthetic.
• [48:37] — AI, retail, changes (or lack thereof) in the industry.
• [53:53] — Final thoughts: Studio Four’s retail approach, trade loyalty.

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Tone and Style

• Warm, candid, and generous: Stacy shares both expertise and personal anecdotes.
• Humorous, insightful, and practical: Both speakers enjoy poking fun at trends ("cloud dancer as primer"; "explosion at the souk") and don’t shy away from real business challenges.
• Instructional for both industry veterans and newcomers, blending history, commerce, and creativity.

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For anyone interested in high-end fabrics, interior design entrepreneurship, and the realities behind the beauty, this episode is an illuminating, down-to-earth masterclass.

Transcript

[A]

This is business of home. I'm your host, Dennis Scully. Every week I'll be speaking with leaders and innovators from all corners of the home industry. My guest this week is Stacy Wagner of the New York fabric showroom studio 4. A veteran of Jack Leonard Larson's legendary studio, Stacy has spent her entire career in textiles. Founded in 2009, Studio 304 is the culmination of her passion for fabric, an independent home for lines from around the world. Loved by designers for its unique viewpoint. I spoke with Stacy about the rise of digitally printed textiles, what makes a line successful in her showroom, and the surprising truth tariffs have revealed about the fabric business Foreign. This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta. At Ernesta, there's a true belief in the transformative power of interior design.

[B]

Founded with the desire to make getting.

[A]

The custom size rug easier, faster and more affordable, Ernesta simplifies the process by hand, selecting quality materials and styles that appeal to nearly every sensibility and delivering each rug in as little as two weeks. Join Ernesta's trade program to lay the foundation to your projects with ease. Apply for membership [e-mail] BOH I'm going.

[B]

To take you back in time because I. Okay. Because I was talking not too long ago with the incredible Christine Vanderhooerd. Right. I mean, one of the coolest creatives in the industry. Yes. And was reminded that you guys met all the way back when you were working for Jack Lennar Larson, Right?

[C]

I did. So Christine's office was upstairs from Jack Lennar Larson's headquarters at 41 East 11th Street.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And they would have joint warehouse sales. So one of the first time, I guess probably the first time I met Christine was during one of the warehouse sales and she was. She owned. Is it Modern age? I think was her company. Yeah. Furniture. These like cool, very cool furnitures. And I bought these very cool bentwood, kind of like the shape of the original Thonay chair. But they had these incredible backsplats that were gilded and modern and cut out and all that. And I still have those in my. I mean, really, how cool. She came for dinner.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So she came for dinner the last time she was in town. And I've got the chairs in my living room. And she just, you know, we had a moment about that, so.

[B]

Well, and how great that you guys have been together. I mean, you weren't working together at the time, but years later. That's tremendous to have that relationship.

[C]

Yeah. I really treasure the relationship with Christine. I think, you know, she has always Been just such an icon of weaving and an amazing rug designer. But also she does these just like completely stunning prints. And she does the embroidery that she does. I mean, it really is the whole package.

[B]

And take me back to working with Jack Leonard Larson, and let's remind people of what a huge figure Jack Leonard Larson was.

[C]

Well, I think Jack Larson was that textile icon. I mean, he really was, you know, he was sort of the same era as Florence, Noel Bassett, and he was incredibly innovative. He had all these things that he would fly out of his mind in the studio and they'd somehow prod. And I worked for him for 10 years, the first 10 years I was in New York, and it was like being in a textile master's program. Every year we would have a big fall launch. So all of the sales teams from across the country, he would bring in everyone for a three day weekend. And on the first night we'd have a dinner and they'd do a big, glamorous presentation of the whole collection. Everybody clap. And then the next day you'd start in on, okay, here are the technical aspects of it. This is what you need to know. Here's how it's made. Here's what the fiber. Here's what the fiber does, here's what it doesn't do. And then that was the technical aspects. But then. And then the next thing was the sales aspects and how to sell it and who to sell it to and what it's for. And it really was so cool because. And that was super important because virtually every collection you had, there were like one or two or three things that you'd send out. And the. And the workrooms would go, well, I don't know how to work with this. So they would send it back like.

[B]

We don't know how to make this.

[C]

And it was a nightmare. And we're like, no, no, no. So we had to. We, as the sales team, first, we had to convey all that to the interior designers. And like, this is how you use this. And then a lot of times we'd get on the phone with the work room and just walk them through the process with it. And I think that was just such a valuable experience. And I mean, I love to know how things are, how things work, how things are made. I love a factory. I love seeing just the inner stuff.

[B]

Well, and so often with his textiles and his mastery of the intricacies of weaving, it's almost as though the product itself was so striking and interesting. But once you heard how incredibly challenging it was to even Produce it. The fact that it existed at all somehow made it even more extraordinary.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, he went around the world and saw these very traditional weaving programs happening in like, in villages and things and like across Africa. And he would say, oh, let's, let's produce this. And so we had this, you know, Swazi lace that was made in Swaziland and it was, the looms were operated by men and they had this huge width because that's the arm span that they had of the, of the loom. So you could get six foot wide fabric that was this incredibly, you know, textured fabric. He went to Colombia and revived a weaving tradition there. He was very instrumental in bringing Thai silks to market, because I think so I think he partnered with Jim Thompson and Tybach and eventually Jerry Peir. And I think that there's, there's just. So he has such a place in history and, you know, I mean, one of his first big commissions was like the theater cartons at the Ballet Folklorico in Mexico City. And it was just this like stunning, you know, mosaic of mylar and embroidery and all sorts of crazy things.

[B]

Well, so you were with him, as you say, for 10 years?

[C]

Yeah. Yes. So I left when. So Jack was retiring for kind of a long time, but I think he had, it took him a while to.

[B]

Get on the team.

[C]

He was definitely still in the game. And then Countenance Houthis purchased Larson and actually it was Colfax, I guess Colfax and Fowler that I'm counting it out. And then Larson and Manuel Cannonballs and all these other amazing, amazing lines. And that's, I, I figured that was time for me to go. I just signed off then. So I went to work for another multi line showroom, Tuohy Pranach, because he was opening the showroom in New York and had a bunch of lines that I had repped both at Larson and prior to that at David Sutherland, which was my first job before moving to New York and then was there at Tuohy's for a little while and then went to AM Collections, which was a couple of guys doing amazing rugs and yeah, Anthony Mott and Anthony Monaco. And I worked for them very early and almost 10 years also. And then the crash happened.

[B]

Sadly, the great financial Crisis arrived.

[C]

Exactly 2008 rolls around and AM was sold to Stark. And they thank goodness because, you know, Stark really saved am. But I didn't want to work for a company as large as Stark. So I decided that was about the time. I mean, I stayed till you know, we transitioned a lot of things and then started Studio 4 with a partner, and we had a great. It was the. Well, I guess I'd lost most of my 401k. I was calling it like, a 201k at that point.

[B]

Well, that's what I was wondering. I mean, really. I mean, the industry. And it sounds like the business you were working with really dramatically impacted, and AM might have otherwise gone away were it not for the star acquisition.

[C]

Yeah, right. Exactly.

[B]

So you and your partner decide, let's start a business.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So I cashed in the rest of my 401k, which is something I do not recommend, but it works.

[B]

But you needed some work in cash.

[C]

And it was great. I used it. And. Yeah. And honestly, we were. It was a great time. We got a great deal on our space. At the time, there were. My landlord was making a deal. I'm in an amazing Stanford white building on 20th and Broadway. And when you start in the bottom of a depression, at least you're not comparing yourself to last year's sales. You're like, it's just all the way up.

[B]

Exactly. Every number looks good. What we did. Sales at all.

[C]

Exactly. Exactly. Wow. We made $300 this month.

[B]

And in the early days, what did you have? What was the collection that you were bringing out?

[C]

Well, we were very lucky. We had 22, which I know you've talked to Rob and Kira Hartnett about that. At the time, they were doing their own wallpaper line, but they weren't yet producing. And we had a lot of carpet and rugs. We still do a huge amount of rugs and textiles, but we're most known, I think, for our fabrics and wallpapers. ICFF happened, like, right before we were leaving AM and about to start. We knew we were going to do it, and so we went over to ICFF and literally took our AM Collection business cards and scratched out the phone number and put in email addresses and put in our personal Gmails and talked ourselves into getting the Florence Broadhurst collection of rugs. Florence. At the time, it was a licensing thing for a company called Cadre's. And they were wonderful. But it was so. She was such an iconic figure. And kind of. It was interesting because she and Jack Larson were kind of rising to fame around the same time. And she was doing things down in Australia before, you know, FedEx. And so all the things that Jack was doing here and David Hicks was doing in England, and it would take so long to get to Australia that she was sort of making up her own sunburnt versions of all of those. So. So we had the. The rugs. Somehow they were like, sure, we'll take a flyer on a couple of girls who don't even have a business yet.

[B]

Scratched out or a car.

[C]

But. So. So we had those. And that actually opened us up to a lot of things. So we. We ended up carrying the fabric. The wallpaper and fabric lines from. For Florence for a while. And that opened us up to a lot of wallpaper people because, I mean, she was, you know, she was having a moment and there was a. I mean, she's been dead, you know, since the 70s. But there was a very resurgence of popularity in her and interest in her collection. There had been a movie about her, her life and death, and she was killed by a serial killer in Sydney. And it was. Oh.

[B]

So there was a whole drama and a whole story behind like, oh, Jane.

[C]

Campion made a movie about it. I mean, it was. It's. It's wild.

[B]

Gotta go back in the archives.

[C]

We'll have to look you up. We'll have to look it up on that. I'll send you a link. But. So she was this very, like, mysterious, kind of fabulous figure who kept reinventing herself. She was also a lot of people that were. That were producing wallpaper at the time really revered her. So we had. It opened us up to a lot of Australian lines that we now carry, you know, and then also some other, you know, other cool wallpaper people around the world. They're like, oh, you have Lawrence Broadhurst. Well, okay. Well, maybe you do want to look at my line. So it kind of. I feel like it was the starting gate, but it was a fun start. And it was a really. It was a really good grounding in wallpaper. And we've grown from that. Another one of our first lines was Eskaille. I know you've talked to Shannon, who.

[B]

I'm a huge fan of.

[C]

Yeah, huge fan. Huge fan. So she was so, you know, she was kind of the first one to really successfully do kind of a kaleidoscopic digital thing. So I think she was really one of the first super strong digital producers.

[B]

Well, and that's what I was so curious about, Stacey, because I was trying to pinpoint. And Shannon was one of the early people who was taking a flyer on digital printing at the time when many in the industry looked down their nose at the whole process. Perhaps you included at the time.

[C]

Oh, my gosh, I'm a textile snob from way back. I mean, you know, even before Larson I was, you know, when I was at David Sutherland, I mean we had, you know, Dongia and the twigs and all of these like amazing textile lines and you know, digital wasn't even considered at the time. But right around the time, right around 2009, 2010, I think there was a lot of renewed interest in digital and, and honestly a whole lot of it. And still, I mean it's, how do I say this? So it's.

[B]

Don't worry about being tactful here, Stacey.

[C]

Garbage in and garbage out. There you go.

[B]

There you go.

[C]

Because it's, you know, it's a photographic process so it's really as good as the Christmas of your file. So if you've got pristine artwork and your data is really tight, you can produce some really beautiful things on digitally. And you know, we, we work a lot most our own collection, we've done a lot with artists. So Wayne Pate was our very first sort of arts collaboration and we've, we're on, I think starting to think about collection five or might be six. But we've, it's great for that because it digital you can get so detailed and you can really convey the brushstroke and you can really convey layers and layers of color that you really couldn't do as a screen print. If you were trying to do that in screen printing. I mean, imagine trying to screen 60 screens. Well, you couldn't.

[B]

Is part of the reason why so closely tied to the financial crisis, was it an innovative and less expensive way to produce and is that part of what brought it about or what, what do you think? Led.

[C]

It's a less, it's a less expensive way to establish a design.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So when we do screen prints, every screen costs about $750. So that, so if you have a five screen piece that's, you know, you know, it's over $5,000 that you've got to be really sure that that is your exact design and the exact colors. So you have to, so, so the startup of that and the setup and the expense of burning screens is a lot. Production wise, screen printing is cheaper than digital, but in digital you just have to have a good image and you can, you can print it if you've got a good piece. Now I think the ease of that made a lot of people not really have to sit and edit what they were doing. I mean, so if you, if you can plop out 32 colors of a shell design, you know, should you.

[B]

Well, I mean you were reminding me recently that in the early days there was a lot of clip art. There was a lot of sort of. It was almost like novelty ties sort of look, it really was. To a lot of what was being done digitally. And that was part of why everybody didn't take it seriously in the early days. Great that you can put all these birthday cakes in the wallpaper. Right? But who wants.

[C]

But why?

[B]

Who wants all this birthday cake wallpaper? Yeah.

[C]

Unless you're specifically marketing to a bakery. And how much effort is there in that? And I mean, it really is. It's such a. The ability to produce. It became so widespread that everybody could do. I mean, I kind of feel like there was a time that, you know, the people that a few years before were doing handbags or were doing jewelry or it was, I want to do something creative, so let me do this. But. But, you know, in reality, the whole idea of producing wallpapers and marketing them and sampling them and selling them and fulfilling them, it's a business. I mean, it's really. There's a lot more than just saying, oh, I like this design. It's pretty.

[B]

Right?

[C]

You know, one of the things that I think that Studio 4 is really good at and I kind of pride ourselves on is that we have a. We're really good with small lines that are kind of coming to the market, you know, And I think a lot of that is like, my background in dealing with so many different lines is I know where the pain points are, I know how much sampling we're going to need. It is impossible to overestimate the need for samples in the US market. And a lot of overseas markets simply don't understand that. And they think, oh, well, you know, if I take the same yard and I can do, you know, 36, nine by nine samples, but, you know, that means I could do 124, three by three samples. You're like, no, nobody's going to look at a three by three samples and go, this will make great curtains.

[B]

So is that part of what is.

[A]

So different in the U.S. i mean.

[B]

Why are we sampling so much more than the Europeans sampling and what's going on?

[C]

It's a whole different model, I think, because in Europe and in England a lot, I mean, you have these design shops that you go into and you can go into Liberty and say, oh, here's this great fabric. Yes, that's what we want to buy in the US the designer takes things back to their office, they put together boards, they put together the project, they have all of these just amazing presentations that they're putting together. And they're not necessarily bringing clients into the showrooms because, you know, I see it in here. We've got a lot of stuff in our showroom. And some designers love bringing their clients in. Some designers would never bring their clients in because it's kind of like, you know, magpies. Oh, squirrel. It is very easy to get distracted.

[B]

And the designer wants them to see one specific thing and then suddenly a million things are catching their eye.

[C]

Right. And maybe that's a line and maybe that's a focus of multi line showrooms because we do have so much and we're not one shop places. But I do love working with the small lines because I mean, in larger showrooms, I think, you know, they'll have a mix of really big lines and really small lines. But when the really big line is expanding, they're like, oh no, where are we gonna put little line? Oh, let's go put them over in the back show, you know, over, down that aisle. And people are forever chasing tiny lines around a showroom and they're not getting the attention they deserve.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think here, I mean, I've got some lines that have 10 SKUs and I think they.

[B]

Is that right?

[C]

Yeah, they're adorable. Adorable. I don't mean that. Cause I don't mean to diminish them. But they're like the 10 SKUs are really great and they deserve to be. They deserve to have a place.

[B]

They must be great for you to have taken them on in the first place. And I'm curious to the point that you were just making, and this is what I think is so valuable about working with a multi line showroom is the advice and counsel and experience that you've had that you can share with these lines. And as you were just saying, prepare them for the reality of the sampling costs, but also help them understand what, what is going to help these lines to be successful. In your mind, what do you look for? What do you try and tell them?

[C]

If a designer is interested in a fabric, you know, you kind of have to look at the life of the project. So the designer may say, this is going to be terrific for the sofa in this living room. But the living room is going to wait to be purchased until all the components are in place or a majority of the components are in place, or at least you're going to order the sofa before you order the fabric. So it could be six, eight months down the line in the project when the designer has known all along they were going to use the sofa. So I think to the designer, it's a line item.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So it's a design. It's a line item in a much bigger project. To the small textile designer, who's so excited for that sales, it's kind of everything. So the managing the expectations of that and also the lines take a little while to hit. I mean, they do. Sometimes they. Sometimes there are things that just jump out. I mean, actually, I have to say this. I'm very so excited about this. We just got our first order on our block print with samples have been out literally one week.

[B]

Really?

[C]

Yeah. So that is really fast. And I am thrilled to death.

[B]

It does take a really long time. And it sounds as though setting the expectations is such an important part of what you try and do with these lines.

[C]

Yeah, and it's also. I mean, virtually everything we do is print to order. We have a few line. Well, I mean, except our current, you know, block print. We have a few lines that produce and hold some. Some stock, a minimal amount, but almost everything is printed. And it's usually like four to six weeks lead time. I was talking with my friend Brad Bloom over at Pollock a couple years ago, and I was like, brad, it's practically in stock. It's, you know, it's four to six weeks is nothing. And he laughed. But it's because we produce to order because it's digital. You know, the idea of carrying all this inventory and making these decisions on whether or not to discontinue a fabric, there's a lower bar to entry into the marketplace. And I think that that's healthy because I think that you can get a lot of really interesting, innovative designs that if you had to look at something and say, is everybody going to do that ochre and gray thing? But no, that might be the one that hits. So. And for us, I can produce it, because I don't. All I've got to store is the artwork. You know, I'm still gonna print it to order.

[B]

Well, and that brings me to the whole issue of whether. Whether or not you've seen any drop off in the enthusiasm of people to come out with a fabric or wallpaper collection, or if you feel like it's.

[C]

Just a snow as it ever was. I actually. Fortunately, multiple times a week, I'll have someone will reach out to us and say, hey, I'd love for you to take a look at my line. I think it might be a good fit. They're from England, they're from Australia, they're from across America. And I think it's really exciting. And I try very hard. I mean, I always look at everything that comes in and I try very hard to send a really quick response because, you know, it's, you know, a lot of people, it's a cold call. Some people it's a, oh, hey, you know, you represent my friend so and so. Or X designer told me I should reach out to you. Or, you know, I love your website and I think we'd be a good fit. Or. And I love that people think about it and look at it. But I also, I have limited space here, so I have to, I have to really love a line and really think it can do well here enough to make room for it really. So.

[B]

Well, that's what I'm wondering. I mean, do you feel like really you're at capacity but if a great line comes along? Oh, you'll find the space.

[C]

Yeah. I mean we always. And you know, there are things that like we, we've become more economical in the way that we display some other lines. So maybe we might have had a full drop of fabric in 10 colors and maybe we decided to reduce that to five wings of, you know, half and half. So there are ways that we can still squeeze a few more inches out of this showroom. But it's, But I don't want it to get so packed that you're like, I went to Studio 4 and we had to fight our way through all the textiles and we missed it. It was too much.

[A]

We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Ernesta. Immerse your clients in elevated design with Ernesta's curated collection of custom sized rugs. Explore a vast variety of options that work for your creative vision through complementary unlimited samples. Gain access to exclusive trade discounts and receive personalized project support through Ernesta's dedicated team of consultants. To apply for membership to Ernesta's trade program or learn more, visit ernesta.com/boh.

[B]

Getting back to digital printing and what I'm curious about is when did you first see something that really turned your head and made you rethink digital printing or made you realize how far it had come and that it was really going to have the impact that it's clearly had?

[C]

Okay. One of the first lines that we had from Australia was, it was called Edit and there was a woman, Sharon Storyer Lynem, who had been the editor of Vogue Australia and she had left publishing and started her this textile line and it was all digital and it was like she had this one photograph that it was, I Mean, this one fabric that was like a photograph of, like, jewel boxes at a. Like, at a street fair. You know, just these jumbles of stones and gaudy brooches and all of this stuff. And it was fantastic, and it was so cool. We're like, wait, you made a fabric out of this? And then she had one that was a. Like, this topiary garden that maybe had, like, 35 different colors of green in it. And it was. And they were so beautiful and so crisp and. And she knew a lot about photography, and she was the first one that I really thought, wow, this is a really cool process. So that was in 2009, and once it sort of started hitting, you know, there were a lot of people, I think, who were doing things. They're like, oh, let me go get this antique textile and just take a photograph of it and print that. And it's not as simple as that.

[B]

So do you think, in a way, that the digital printing makes some of the other things, like block printing, like, some of the other different applications stand out even more? So great digital printing, it's obviously had this big moment, but you look at some other ways of doing it, and you're reminded of what they can do, what block printing can do, what screen printing can do.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I think they. I mean, I think it's an expanded toolbox. I mean, I think there's definitely room for all the processes, and they all have different quirks, and they all have different abilities. I think that, as traditional screen printing uses quite a lot of water, so it's not the most environmentally friendly of all. They make great strides in digital. There are some amazing new printers that use just tiny amounts of water, and they set them in different ways. Our block printer, she had the choice of using one of two facilities. One is in. One of her facilities is in Jaipur, and one is in Delhi. And the one in Delhi has a machine that basically bakes in the pigments. And so she doesn't. She also uses very little water, which is great, because, I mean, it's. You know, listen, I hope we're past the days when, you know, there's a street in Avignon that when they used to make all the robes for when the popes were in Avignon, and they had all of these, like, really heavy purples and reds and all that. I mean, the street, the marble in the street was stained the color of these wardrobes, and it's like, oh, my gosh, that's. And it's lasted for hundreds of years. Now it's still there. So.

[B]

Yeah, so we've cleaned up the process.

[C]

Yeah, we've cleaned up a bit. So. And I think we keep making things that you can print to order. They are more eco friendly because you're not sitting with hundreds of yards sitting on a shelf somewhere that might end up in landfill someday that you're printing what you need.

[B]

Well, and also. Exactly. And you don't have to write off a bunch of inventory over time because you don't have that inventory. And that, that was always the allure of the made to order.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think that that's become such a smart business model, really. I mean, we like when we print our own fabrics and wallpapers, we do inventory the print ground, but we just use it as needed.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. And the print ground is unfortunately going to be our segue, Stacy, into tariffs and everything else that's. That's been going on because you can produce domestically, but you're still having to import an awful lot in the process.

[C]

Yeah. The linens we use are in printing our fabrics and virtually all of our vendors use too is a Belgian linen because they make the best prepped for printing and clean tight linen and most consistent and all that. So we don't make linen here in the US that's going to be the quality that you need to be able to print 300 yards. And so we have to print. So even things that we print here are on imported grounds. And I can say we have two carpet lines, one that does synthetics and one that is a hand woven wool that are produced in the US and virtually every fabric line that we have that produces in the US is produced on imported goods.

[B]

So what has been the impact of the tariffs? What has been the impact even of the de minimis changes that have happened, which is a huge thing.

[C]

Yeah, that's hit us really hard because we're used to being able to bring under $800 worth of goods in. And now we're getting hit with, I mean, everything has a tariff. We pass it along to our vendors, I mean to our clients. We have a line item on our quotes and we say this is the tariff, this is the cost of the fabric. At this point, some of our fabric lines are starting to roll the tariff into the price of their goods. So I don't love that because it's an increase and I don't think that price increases ever go away. But I think one of the things with tariff right now that's particularly onerous on India is that they're Stacking the tariffs. So there's a 25% tariff baseline, but they're another 25% punitive tariff because India is purchasing oil from Russia.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So world geopolitics really get involved with my little business here, you know.

[B]

Well, and you told me recently that rugs have become a huge percentage of your, of your business.

[C]

Oh, yeah, rugs. Rugs are over 50% of our business, over 50% of our income. Like, the number of sales is higher in fabric and wallpaper, but of course those are less. But the rugs are. And the rugs are, you know, the lead times are astronomical. So, I mean, so one, some of the things that we quoted last year, pre tariffs, I mean, we had to reach out to all of our clients earlier this year and say, hey, when that rug crosses the border, that's when it's going to get tariffed and there will be an extra charge and we'll have to charge you.

[B]

And right now we don't know what it will be. We have to wait until it gets here and then you get assessed whatever the fee is.

[C]

We got a certain amount of pushback on that, but we really. But not a ton. I mean, our clients understand it. You know, they read the newspapers, they understand what's going on. And it's, you know, it's affecting every aspect of it, though I think that originally it had, like, a little bit of a shocking freeze effect on our business. But I think that our clients mostly have said, okay, it is what it is.

[B]

Well, and that's what I'm wondering, Stacy, because, and I'm so glad that you said that, because I'm wondering, when you talk to all of your partners on the production side, are they just starting to assume that this is just going to be hanging around for a while and this is just part of doing business?

[C]

Yes. And I think that that's why a lot of people are going to start to roll those into their prices. We have more of our overseas lines quoting us a ddp, which is delivered, duties paid, which means that they ship from England or Australia or wherever they are, and they are covering the charges for importing it into the US So they are paying it, but they're rolling it into the price. So we're at about. We have a higher number of those doing that. I mean, I still prefer that they leave the prices alone and just let us charge, you know, the tariff line just so the fabric's not astronomically more expensive.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But I, but I, I do think that people have gotten, I don't know, complacent about it. But I do. I mean, I think there's a, there's less price sensitivity than there might be in other sectors. I mean, certainly at the grocery stores, I mean, I just went and bought some wine that I was like, oh, no.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, go buy a steak. Right?

[C]

Exactly. I mean, exactly.

[B]

No, no, it is.

[C]

So it's all, it's all more expensive. I do think that some of our vendors that are overseas vendors that have multiple showrooms in the US they had a lot of pushback from certain showrooms of theirs and so they kind of got scared. I think the showrooms were like, well, nobody's going to buy them if you're going to charge this. I'm like, yeah, they will, you know, because what else are they gonna get? I don't, I don't mean to be callous. I don't. That sounds really.

[B]

No, no, I'm, I am so, I am, I am borderline amazed about the resiliency of the industry in the face of all of these price increases. And so many people tell me, well, that's what the client wants and the client has the means. And the client that we are servicing is not, this isn't, they're not gonna be cutting back on their groceries.

[C]

They're not exactly pinching pennies rugged from.

[B]

This custom rug from India. So. But, but I, but I, I hate to think to your point of just even the perception being that the industry is so expensive or that all these things are so rarefied in that, in that way, when part of what was so exciting about digital printing was that things might be somehow more accessible in that way and, and these things wouldn't be as, as expensive. And now it is.

[C]

Yeah. And I think that's a really valid point. And we look at things like, because we started Studio 4 in 2009, we've kind of always made an effort to try to have a mix of high, low. I mean, look, if you want a hand knotted silk rug from Nepal, yay. And we do a lot of those. I mean, we do. And that's not something you can make in America. You just, you just can't. But we also have been really intentional about coupling that with. Here are some great broad limbs that have a very handmade look. I mean, some of the big Broadland producers have done a fantastic job over the last 10 years at having their carpets not look so much carpets as like rugs. And if it's a broad limb company that's doing rugs, it's much more Quick ship. Thank you. You know, my Nepalese rugs are usually about five to six months lead time, so. And we produce rugs in India that are about the same. I've produced a lot of rugs in China. We have one particular manufacturer there that I love working with, and I'm anxious to get back to work now that I think that things are, you know, not quite as the tariff isn't quite as heart stopping as it once was. It's still pretty, you know, pretty high, but it's not as, you know.

[B]

Do you think we all have Stockholm syndrome now? We're just right.

[C]

We're just.

[B]

We're just become numb to it. Oh, Tara.

[C]

Yes. Oh, look at that.

[B]

I'm sure I'll pay that 50% on indie. Listen.

[C]

Oh, my gosh. I mean, it really is.

[B]

I mean, no, no, that's real. That is huge.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But. But somehow, as I say, somehow people are, are figuring it out. And to your point, either they're including it in their price or they're putting this line item or some people sound like they're getting creative back of house and making it a design fee or something. I don't know. A lot of people tell me innovative ways that they're trying to get around it. And I think more and more, again, people think at least for as long as the president, the current administration is in office. Tariffs don't seem like they're going away, so everyone is having to figure it out. And yet, remarkably, again, people tell me it's been a pretty good year. Despite all of that.

[C]

It actually, I mean, it's surprisingly, it has been, you know, we're ahead of last year.

[B]

Is that right?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, not by leaps and bounds, but I think we have. We are. We're up.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I am knock on wood for that.

[B]

Exactly. And so you wonder what you think with all your years of experience. What would you say is the through.

[A]

Line with all of the different lines.

[B]

That you've brought in?

[A]

If somebody says, what am I gonna find at Studio 4?

[B]

What is it about how you've edited and curated the collection that you have?

[C]

I spend a lot of time trying to think about a really good answer for that. And most of it is when a line shows up. I think it's, I have to like it. My partner, David has to like it. And we both come from different viewpoints. His is more interior design heavy, mine is more textile production heavy. So we're forever, like, you know, laughing at color choices or design choices or things like that. But There has to be something in common that we both like, that we're both. Get us into the people behind the lines because they're all small lines. So there is a personality behind every line that we have. I don't know. I guess there's a sense that, like, the creator believes in their line. And, I mean, I think. I mean, I think that goes a little bit back to how easy it is to do, you know, 32 birthday cakes and, you know, 15 different colors. You know, that type of art is not what's compelling me. I don't want somebody who goes and finds an antique textile and photographs it and says, here's a design. You can certainly take elements of antique textiles. Everybody does that.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

It's fantastic.

[B]

You can find inspiration, but inspiration and copying, two different things.

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, no. And I think that's such a great point.

[A]

I think Thomas Pheasant was making that.

[B]

Point just recently to me on the show.

[C]

He said he's so smart.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Inspiration.

[B]

Let's talk about that word and what it really means, because it doesn't mean what many people seem to think it means these days in terms of just knocking things off. And I think it's so interesting that I'm sure lots of lines that you see must feel very derivative. They must feel like, oh, I feel like I've seen this before.

[C]

Well, I mean, I think a lot of, like, people will send in something, and they're like, oh, well, you have Eskail. So I think my line would be a really good fit for you. And I think. Well, I already have what I think is the best of that particular genre. So I don't know that I would need your. You know. So, yeah, there's inspiration, there's reverence, there's. But there's. You know, there are people that are doing it. Look like there's some interior designers who have ended up with lines. Sometimes I think that the designers that do tend to be safer, because I think they think, oh, this would be a great line in the D and D building or something, or something like that. And there are lots and lots of great lines that would be great in the. In the D and D building. And I don't think that that's really our vibe. I think we're a little bit more. I don't think edgy is the right word, but to me, there has to be something compelling about every line, so. And it has to kind of jump. Most people send in digital representations of their work, so it really has to jump off the computer screen at me to say, oh, yeah, I'd like to see some samples of this.

[B]

So I wonder, Stacey, as we as wrapping up, one of the things that's often talked about in our industry is this notion that wallpaper comes in and out of. Of fashion. You and I were talking recently about watching all of these great British police procedurals and all the distracting great wallpaper that just seem to be in what often are the most ordinary of homes, but they somehow have this incredible wallpaper in them nonetheless. I feel like. Is it really the case that wallpaper goes in and out of?

[C]

I don't think so. It's funny because ever since we've. Since starting Studio 4 in 2009, people would say. People always say to me, oh, is wallpaper back in? I'm like, still? Yeah, it's still here. You know, I mean, I know that Pantone just claimed white walls are all the thing, but I don't buy it. But I do. Like, I think wallpaper has always really had an effect, but I do. I do think the British do it really well. I think. I think that we. We did a post a while back that was like. I can't remember if we titled it Murder Rooms or Walls To Die for or something like that, because it was like noticing how many police procedurals in England all had great wallpaper. I think there's something really compelling about wallpaper. I think it's the ability to change a room entirely.

[B]

Well, and the British often tell me that part of the reason you're seeing so much of that, too, is that there's just easier access to it in the uk, Right. That it's just a lot more available to the average person and they do go down to the high street and just pick up some rolls of wallpaper and I guess the neighbor puts it up for them or something. I don't know.

[C]

But I think also wallpaper has this thing of. It has, like an inherent DIY aspect of it. Now, I do not recommend you go hang your own wallpaper.

[B]

I will not be hanging my own wallpaper.

[C]

I will not be. I have done it and I do not want to. This is one of those things you want to hire someone for. But I do think that people would look at a bolt of fabric and go, well, I'm never going to upholster my own chair, but I might wallpaper my bathroom.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I do think that that makes it a more personal and tactile and approachable media for stuff. But, you know, it's a good lesson in frustration to try to hang the wallpaper.

[B]

It's a very humbling. It's a very humbling experience, having attempted it myself years ago. It's a very. That will show you skills you definitely do not have.

[C]

Oh, definitely, definitely.

[B]

Very quickly. And getting that glue out of my hair wasn't easy either. But let's not revisit that time when.

[C]

My subway caning fell off the wall.

[B]

Oh, well, that's the other thing.

[A]

And the guests noticed who hung this wall.

[B]

It seems to be some bubbles or something. Yeah, don't look too closely. So listen, Stacey, you mentioned that you were just listening to the podcast, and so, of course you heard the conversation about the exciting Pantone color of the year, Cloud Dancer. I mean, the industry just cannot stop talking about it. I'm wondering a. Do you have a hot take on the whole thing?

[C]

I would say paint those walls with Cloud Dancer and then cover them up with wallpaper.

[B]

Use Cloud Dancer as your primer.

[C]

Exactly. Yeah.

[B]

That is a great primer. Glad they recommended it. And slap some wallpaper up. I think that is a darn good answer. Is anybody taking direction from the pantone color of the Year? Because some people were worried, oh, my gosh, this is a recession indicator. This message is terrible. I didn't take it that way myself. But I'm curious, but more importantly, I'm wondering, is it the last breath of this sort of ivory boucle tidal wave that we've been enduring for the last few years? And is that it? We're done now, and that's on the decline, and boucle itself can shine in other ways. Yeah, right.

[C]

Chanel suit.

[B]

There you go.

[C]

I mean, come on. Yes. Your mom wears boucle.

[B]

And look at her. She's a social media star. She is a social media star.

[C]

Follow her.

[B]

Now, I do take after Nancy Scully. Exactly. But I mean, what. What do we really think? I mean, the white. The whole white thing. And have we. Have we seen ivory boucle on the decline? Do any of your lines show up?

[C]

You know, because we don't do any furniture. I can't get over how much furniture is covered in ivory boucle in showrooms. And, I mean, we're going to the flea market in Paris a couple of years ago, and I looked at, like, every stand has an ivory boucle. So I was like, what is it? But, I mean, I think it's, you know, I think it's chic, but I think, you know, God, people live with some color. I love color. I love color prints. I love solid Colors I love. I think it's really luxurious to wrap yourself in a bunch of color. Yeah. You know, and I would like to think that I could be this minimalist person that had, you know, lived in a glass walled place with nothing but white boucle and blonde wood. But yeah, it's not me. I can't do it. You know, I want layers and layers and layers of design and color and it all goes together and it's all weird and wonderful. And someone told me one time that my. They thought my apartment looked like an explosion at the souk. It's like I took it as compliments.

[B]

And you said thank you very much.

[C]

I did, I did.

[B]

I love that explosion at the souk. That is hilarious. Finally, Stacey, in talking to Dan Cahoon just recently from Jerry Pear, we were reflecting on the fact that honestly, not that much has really changed in this industry after all of these years. Does anything seem to have evolved in some dramatic way or do you see meaningful changes? Do you see AI showing up and playing a transformative role? Or does there seem to be anything that points to how the industry will be different in the coming years in your mind?

[C]

I keep trying to figure out what AI can or will do for this business, and I don't see it yet. I don't know that I think it's still sort of such an old fashioned thing. I mean, I think AI could help us in systems and making things more expedient, but I don't necessarily see it affecting how we design, how we produce collections, how we market. I mean, maybe how we market. But I do think that one of the things that is a little bit interesting is the we do a little bit of retail. We do very limited retail, but we will quote a retail price. I mean, I think back to your. Michael Phillips was talking today about how the differences in retail in the UK market, in the European market, how it's a little more accessible than it is here. And I think that going more toward that is probably happening. When we started Studio 4, we offered retail pricing on some wallpapers and fabrics simply because at that time, you know, it was everybody was doing wallpapers and there were all these little online wallpaper people that were doing it. And we thought, well, gosh, if somebody's selling this same line online, then we might as well sell retail as well. We have very, very little emphasis in it, but we. But I had to think because, you know, my background was like, it's church and state, retail and trade, and we spent a lot of time talking to a lot of important designers. And we said, this is our take on it in. It's the same thing that you do with antique stores here. Like, so maybe everybody can walk in an antique store, but the trade gets a better price. And I think that that's. That was our thing. So we're not undercutting the trade. We're not, you know, retail, retail. People can't get it for less the retail, but people can't get it for the same price. We're protecting trade. And we, you know, we do that and there. And we don't do any custom pieces. Like, I won't sell a custom rug retail, but I'll. If I have a rug sitting here on my floor and someone can take it away, I'll sell that retail. But it doesn't really happen much. I mean, we have very. We have very limited retail. We do maybe our pillows. We have pillows of virtually everything. So.

[B]

Yeah. And so many people say, oh, why doesn't everyone just have more pillows and more cash and carry items? I mean, it's so interesting that you say that. And Timur Yumasaklar from Schumacher so often talks about reaching all these homeowners and trying to get them excited about the product, and then ultimately, how do you service them? There does seem to be this huge opportunity. And how do we somehow crack the code on making it work for the industry?

[C]

Yeah. And I think that social media has a part in that because I think when people follow on social media, they want to see, like, where can I find this Christine Vanderhoord pillow? Or something like that. And so my take on pillows is it's a great. It's kind of another display option in our showroom. So we have lots of pillows in the showroom, but we don't actively. I mean, we have a section on our website, but we're not actually actively pushing the pillows for the most part. But a lot of that is that I don't want to get into a pillow making because it may take eat up a lot of sales time that I would rather be spent working toward a more expensive sale. But I think we do have some clever designs that have come in pillows, and we do have people taking them out all the time. Peter Dunham does a gorgeous job with his pillows. I don't know if his showroom at the D and d, I mean, 200 lakh. It's just. Yeah, it's.

[B]

I mean, you can't help but want to walk out with some pillows.

[C]

I want to walk out with every pillow. I know he's so talented. So I think that's really great. And, and you know, we don't have a lot of cash and carry things. We don't, we don't sell accessories. We don't sell little cigarette tables or you know, drinks tables or whatever. We don't sell breakable things.

[B]

Yeah, no, no. I mean the whole, the whole pillow slash cash and carry is an interesting challenge and I feel like part of the reason that Schumacher just to go back to them, why they're opening up these, what feel much more like little shops in some of these interesting markets where they're experimenting with candles and throw pillows and all of that Siever note cards. Yeah. And I just think it's a way into the brand and people get to walk out with it. And then does it plant the seed for what they want in the future when they're ready for that hand knotted rug from Nepal? I mean, maybe, maybe so.

[C]

I know. I think that's one of the things that is worth exploring and I think our website will help us a little bit with that.

[B]

I mean Michael Phillips is encouraging us all to be more open to the end consumer and perhaps that's an important message.

[C]

Yeah, it's never going to be our, our main course of business, but you know, listen, if somebody wants to buy our things retail. Yes.

[B]

Okay, well we'll let that be the last word then.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Stacy, thank you so much for making the time.

[C]

Oh, Dennis, thank you. What fun. I appreciate it so much.

[A]

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with.

[B]

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This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castagnier.

[A]

That I'm Den of Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.