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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Are designers feeling good about 2025? Plus: Loloi's new brand
01:03:24
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the industry. Later, Cyrus Loloi joins the show to talk about the launch of Joon Loloi.
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- [00:08]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be talking to Cyrus laloy about the launch of his direct to consumer brand, June laloy. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including Houzz's state of the industry report, all the latest big hires and how designers feel about dopamine decor. To do all that, I'm joined by Business Home's executive editor, Fred Nicholas. Hi, Fred.
- [00:35]
B
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:37]
A
Never better. How are you?
- [00:39]
B
I'm doing good. Listeners should know just before we hit record, Dennis was telling us all about a very treacherous interview he recorded he did live at the New York School of Interior Design. Apparently you were speaking with acclaimed designer Sheila Bridges and you got a cut on your lip. How did that happen? Dennis?
- [00:57]
A
I might have started bleeding from my top lip mere moments before the live interview began. But you, you know what, Fred? I'm a professional, okay?
- [01:07]
B
You were attacked by the wrapping on a lozenge. This, these are the hazards of interior design podcasting.
- [01:13]
A
Yes, it's very dangerous. That's all I can say. People just be careful.
- [01:16]
B
You should have seen the other lozenge. Anyway, let's quickly look back on Monday's episode, an interview with Benchmade Moderns. Dan Campbell, I feel like we've now interviewed the trio of people from Artisan Lane. Now, Artisan Lane is a name most people maybe don't know, but it's the owner of American Leather, Lee industries and this D2C brand, Benchmade Modern. So we've hit the Artisan Lane trifecta. How was your convo with Dan?
- [01:40]
A
Dan it was a great conversation. Dan Campbell, longtime veteran of Holly Hunt, who I've known for a long time, and it was interesting to talk with him about all that he had to ramp up and learn to be the head of a direct to consumer. We're going to make you a custom sofa in what turns out to be just a few weeks, believe it or so. It was interesting talking to him about both the marketing efforts that they invest in and also just what goes into turning this product around so quickly. What did you make of the conversation, Fred?
- [02:17]
B
Yeah, I just thought it was pretty interesting because all these direct to consumer companies like Interior defined, for example, a lot of them are started by, as Dan said, sort of like Wharton grads who are coming in to disrupt something. And I think it was really interesting just to have a brand that's like that from the outside, but it's run by somebody who's from Holly Hunt, who really loves the design trade, is obsessed with product. So that was just interesting to get that perspective. I did like his sort of interesting takes on the wild and woolly world of digital marketing. It's a very crazy thing, and I have to confess, Dennis, you were saying that Benchmade Modern's ads were haunting you around the Internet. As you search for the company, suddenly they attack you with Instagram ads. Same thing happened to me. But they have good products, so I'm not mad at it.
- [03:00]
A
No, my wife reported that they're marketing to her as well now. So, I mean, the entire family is in on it and it just shows that that the advertising dollars are hard at work. Okay, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Jaipur Living. At Jaipur Living, it's always been about more than rugs. Founded in 1978, Jaipor Living began with a bold mission to empower women artisans in rural India, giving them dignity, independence, and a chance to thrive. Today, they partner with over 40,000 skilled artisans, 85% of whom are women, to create breathtaking handmade rugs that bring texture and soul into your home. When you choose Jaipor Living, you're not just buying a rug, you're helping transform communities. Visit JaiporLiving.com to see the beauty of their work and their journey. This podcast is also sponsored by Hector Finch Lighting, who've been selling British manufactured decorative lighting to the design community worldwide for more than 30 years. Hector Finch is known for their clean lines, impeccable craftsmanship, and a less is more philosophy. Working with the highest quality European techniques and materials, including mouth blown glass, hand thrown ceramics, and alabaster, Hector Finch produces a high specification product much loved by designers around the world. Hector Finch is represented in all major markets in North America and their dedicated team is on hand to discuss their many custom options. You can count on Hector Finch to deliver friendly personal service tailored to the needs of your clients. To learn more, visit hectorfinch.com and follow Hector Finch Lighting on Instagram. And we're back. First up, Fred Houzz's State of the Industry report. Sounds very serious.
- [05:12]
B
Very serious. Designers are feeling optimistic about business in the year ahead, according to a new study by Houzz. In a survey of design and construction professionals, the platform found that a majority are projecting a boost in revenue and profits in 2025. Time to thrive. We made it to 2025. Time to thrive. What do you make of these numbers, Dennis?
- [05:32]
A
Well, I mean, I Don't want to be a little gray rain cloud. But I mean, I'm excited that they're feeling optimistic and, and I, I hope that their wishes come true for this. But maybe we should Very, very gloomy.
- [05:47]
B
Start to this optimistic report here. Let's break, let's break down these numbers a little here.
- [05:52]
A
Let's break down the numbers, Fred. Let's, let's set this up and so that we can conte.
- [05:57]
B
So Houzz spoke to, I think the total survey, they do it every year, was 1500 people or so, but of that group it's 355 interior designers. Now that's obviously a lot of people, but it doesn't represent the whole scope of the industry. These are people who are on Houzz. And another thing I noticed from the data, when you look kind of drill down into the methodology is that most of these firms are pretty small, like one or two person operations making less than $500,000 a year. Now those are still good businesses. Those people's opinions are certainly worthy of paying attention to. But these aren't necessarily the big gargantuan firms or the super hitters that are making single digit millions in revenue per year. That's the slice of the market we're looking at. That slice of the market, despite your gloomy take, is very optimistic. 70% of the designers surveyed expect revenue to increase this year at a rate of about 9% annual growth in revenue, which is up from the prediction last year of 8.9%. Just up a little bit anyway. Certainly up a lot from the 3% predicted annual revenue growth in 2023. Things are looking up, or at least people are looking up. What do you think, Denn?
- [07:01]
A
So two things, Fred, that I want, that I want to get into. And again, I do not want to be negative here. Okay. I just want to make that clear. But one, when we looked back to find out when we asked these people how they were feeling, if I recall, it was right around November 7th. I remember because it's my birthday and it was sort of November 7th to December 15th. So sort of maybe just before things started to change in the country. I don't know how else to put it, but also I thought it was interesting to go back and see again the predictive prowess of this group and how good they were at predicting how they would grow in the past. And it didn't look like they were terribly accurate in some of their earlier predictions. Yes.
- [07:46]
B
Yeah. I mean, just another bit of like another grain of salt to add to the pile Here, I mean, I think like these are self reported numbers. So Houzz is not looking at people's accounting software. It's asking them to talk about their expectations and then how those expectations match reality. And as you pointed out, over the past five years, the predictions about how revenue is going grow have not really matched up with what actually happened. For example, last year, designers were pretty optimistic too. There was a prediction of 8.9% revenue growth, but according at least to Houzz's numbers, there was a revenue decrease of 4.1%. If you take these numbers at face value, Houzz designers had a pretty bad 2024 or at least a declining 2024, even though at the time people were pretty optimistic about the year ahead. What do you make of that? Was it just sort of like expectation that they'd hit bottom in 2023, but they kind of hadn't?
- [08:33]
A
Well, I think a lot of it is likely to be tied to everyone still trying to navigate this post Covid environment. And when you had such strong numbers just a few years before, it's still so hard for retailers and designers alike to try and predict and project what they're going to see. So, I mean, again, I can absolutely understand people thinking, oh, surely things are going to get better because you have this recency bias of these strong numbers that you had experienced. But it's just another reminder that it's a very hard time to predict.
- [09:15]
B
Yeah. And I mean, I think like, and I feel like I just keep adding grains of salt to this. That's my only role in this conversation, is to provide caveats to these numbers. But there are lots of people, I think, who are doing particularly well right now. So I wouldn't say that this, you know, that these numbers represent every designer everywhere in America. It largely depends on your local market. And some people are having, you know, a great kickoff to 2025. But I do think, as you're saying, they speak to just this uncertainty. It all comes back to housing. Housing hasn't bounced back the way we keep saying it's going to. Just around the corner, just around the corner. But the corner just is very elusive. And I think like, you know, last year's optimism compared to reality reflects that confusion. And I think the big question is, is the optimism this year going to be a number that we look back with, you know, wry humor on, or is it going to come true? I guess, you know, you've talked to designers about this. You put a poll up on Instagram. Are people feeling good about 2025 so far. What do you think?
- [10:08]
A
Well, I mean, I think, I think a lot of people are. I got a note from Louise Hain of Louise Hayne Interior Design in South Carolina. She says her business is off to a really strong start. She's feeling really good. She hired a business coach who's kind of helping her to focus much more on specific clients. And I've, I've hear a lot of people that they're going to try and focus much more on more high net worth individuals and they're trying to figure out how do I get that bigger project, that better client? Because I think what a lot of these numbers speak to is that. And again, much like we've talked about with the rest of the home industry, if you're in the middle tier, if you're in the lower tier, it's been a much greater struggle. So I think the designers that are thinking that things are going to be better this year are likely targeting more well to do more higher end projects. And I think that makes good sense.
- [11:03]
B
Yeah, I think that's a great point. You know, there's safety in the high end. There always has been, seemingly, there always will be. Going up the market is a good idea.
- [11:11]
A
Next up, we're going to talk about comings and goings. Boh's monthly roundup of design industry hires was packed last week, Fred. I thought we'd go over a few of them and what they might mean. Should we start with Baker?
- [11:22]
B
Let's start with Baker. I actually spoke to the new president, Eric Graham, who is a industry lifer, had all kinds of interesting roles. He was at Syria, Jonathan Charles Century Furniture. And we had a great conversation about where Baker is going. Just a little bit of a backdrop. Baker is owned by this company called Samson holding, which is a big roll up that also owns Universal Furniture. It's based out of, I think Hong Kong. Last year the company did what's called a take private. The company was listed on the stock market. It had been kind of languishing. Its stock price was low and not jumping up. What the chairman did was buy back all the stock and take it back private. I think there' kind of a sense of let's kind of start over a little bit. And I think, you know, Baker's got a new president so it's a good time to kind of like look at the brand with fresh eyes. What was your, your take on my very insightful questions that I asked? Eric, What'd you think?
- [12:13]
A
Well, I mean, I thought it was great that you referenced back in the day when, again, we've talked about Barbara Berry on the show in the past, but there was a time when people were lining up to see what Baker was introducing and what Barbara Barry was designing. And Baker was. I mean, it was a very strong brand. I was just about to say it was as close to a household name as we get in this industry. And it really was. A lot of people knew that name. And so I'm always excited when new leadership comes in that there's a chance that the old Baker is going to make a comeback. So perhaps I'm too emotionally invested here, Fred, but I'm hopeful.
- [12:54]
B
Well, I mean, I think Eric is obviously hopeful, too. He talked about that, and he was saying that there was was this period, I guess the late 90s and early aughts, where it was like, you go to High Point Market and people would be like, oh, that's the Barbara Berry look. We got to come up with accessories to match. The Barber Berry look was very strong in the marketplace. And then he talked about how it kind of went over to the Resto look. Of course, talk about them all the time. But he's very optimistic that there's. Of course, Barber is still designing with Baker, but he's optimistic that Baker can generate a look that defines the marketplace that's kind of the North Star. Another thing he talked about, which I thought was interesting, is just that the challenge of reaching the younger generation of interior designers. He was talking about how he had a conversation with one of his daughter's friends who's an interior designer in Southern California, and he was listing all these brands like Hancock and more and Century and Baker. And I just think he encountered the reality that a lot of young designers don't know these names. They don't have the same reverence for them as a designer might have had 20, 30, 40 years ago. So a big challenge is simply getting in these people's brains and letting them know, like, this is the aspirational brand, this is what you should be looking at. And I don't think that there's any silver bullet there, but I think he acknowledged that that is a problem, that's a challenge, and he wants to solve it.
- [14:01]
A
Yeah, no, no, absolutely. And it's always hard to figure out, how do you make a brand from a previous era if you will seem exciting and sexy to the next generation? So that is a challenge, to be sure. What about Genesac?
- [14:16]
B
Yeah, Genesac has a new president, a guy named Bill Ward. He's actually a writer, hardware veteran. The second Rh mention of the podcast. I'm actually hoping to speak with him so I'll have more to say maybe if I can get an interview on the books with him. But I just thought this was interesting. I think in a time when across the industry there's various levels of pain in coming back from what has been a depressing housing market. But I think one area of growth that everyone talks about is outdoor furniture, even going back to baker. Eric Graham was talking about how baker's had success in outdoor and they've really been building that up and that's a real area of growth for them. Obviously Genesac is really well positioned. They are in some ways the definitive name in high end outdoor furniture or one of many, certainly. I think there's a lot of opportunity to grow that brand and I think that I don't know this gentleman, but he's clearly well respected, was apparently a key lieutenant at rh. So there's a lot of opportunity and I think I'm excited to talk more with him. Did you have any reading of the tea leaves on that appointment, Dennis?
- [15:19]
A
Well, it's so interesting because when you talk to most people in the outdoor world, they will tell you that of course their biggest competitor in the space is RH and that giant source book that comes out with all those many lines of outdoor and they make it look pretty darn good, especially when they put it up on the roof with all those olive trees around it and a great restaurant and you go, yeah, I love this outdoor furniture. Let me order some right now. So I think it's interesting, an RH lieutenant coming into Janus AC and I think it's going to be a match. I think it's going to be a.
- [15:55]
B
Strong if you can't beat them, hire them, I think.
- [15:57]
A
Exactly. So I'm eager to hear what he has to say. And the outdoor space is a fascinating one to watch because as you say, it's a really strong segment in the market. Should we jump into media next?
- [16:09]
B
Yeah, there were a lot of media moves. I guess the first one was Tori Malott, your good friend, is now the home and lifestyle senior director at the fashion and home decor company Tuckernuck. I think I said that accurately. Is it Tuckernuck or Tukranuk or Tuckernuck? Right?
- [16:26]
A
I believe it's Tuckernuck. Yes, absolutely.
- [16:28]
B
Of course, Tori, you know, is leaving Frederick Schumacher's Design magazine. Then she was at Trad Home and you know, you knew her back at Domino. What'd you make of this move, Dennis?
- [16:36]
A
I think it's really exciting for these brands to hire former editorial people. And Torey's a perfect example of somebody who is chic and has a great eye. And she just spent the last few years working on great video content and working with all these designers for her book. If you're Tucker Nuk and you're a fashion brand and you're looking to get more into the home, I mean, who better than Tori to help sort of make this possible for you? So I'm really excited. I know she's really excited. And I think a lot of editorial people are looking to make a change in their career, which we'll talk about. And so I'm excited to see them land at brands where I think they can make a meaningful impact.
- [17:22]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think like if there ever was like a real wall between being an editor at a magazine and then going on to work for a brand, that wall is a lot shorter and a lot weaker than it used to be. I think go back and forth fluidly between the two, you see it more and more. And yeah, clearly Tucker Knock wants to do more home stuff. I mean, I think I remember like a couple months ago or last year, there was some invitation that went out to editors where you could go to a party to celebrate some sort of home launch and they would give you a budget to buy Tucker Nut clothes to wear to the party. I sadly did not take them up on that. But you know, it's fun to see these companies sort of try and, you know, straddle the line between home and fashion. And I'm sure Tory's a great person for it. You know, you mentioned a lot of, you know, moves on the media side and people going between edits and brands. It's possible to go the other way too. Ben Reynard, who I think his last full time job was actually at Interior Defined before it had its sad collapse, who's a really well known style editor and market editor. He went back to Elle Decor, he was sort of their interim market editor and now he's their full time market editor. At the same time, Anna Fixson, who I think was the deputy digital editor, is leaving, which is definitely a loss. I really like Anna's work. She actually had the audacity to scoop me when she was working at Ad Pro on a big investigation I was doing. So kudos to her for that and I'm sure wherever she ends up next will be lucky to have her. You know, we're still waiting to hear who's going to be the new editorial Lead at eldercourse. A lot going on. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I don't know. Any insight, Any hints you can drop? Dennis, do you know? I don't know.
- [18:51]
A
Full disclosure? Well, I mean, I feel like we're getting closer to the outcome there and I feel like we're going to know soon. But I think, as you say, Ben's appointment is really great. I think he's so well liked, he's so well known and respected in the. So I think he's just a great person to be in there. But there's a lot going on at El Decor, clearly, as you say, people coming, people going. And speaking of El Decor, I didn't want to forget to mention Assad Serket, the former editor in chief, who we learned has taken a position as a guest editor for Architectural Digest Italia. And he's hanging out over there in Milan and I think that's great for him. I hope we get to hear more from him. It sounds like this is a temporary gig until mid April, but perhaps something more will come from it. But fun to see his name pop up again.
- [19:43]
B
Yeah, I thought it was awesome and certainly a good temporary gig if you can get it. If anyone wants to hire me to be boh's guest Italian editor in Milan, I'm happy to entertain by. Do you want to move over to one last hire, which is Eric Hilton being named creative director of Holland and Sherry? You actually know Eric. What's your insight into on this?
- [20:03]
A
I do know Eric and I'm a huge fan. You know, years ago, Holland and Sherry had created this wonderful bespoke shop down in soho. It was down on Elizabeth street, actually, and it had been designed by Eric Hilton. And it was a fabulous sort of a chic men's store kind of feel. And they integrated all the fabrics and lots of objects in different collections. And it was the first of many, many different collaborations with Eric Hilton, who's a very established and well respected designer himself. But it makes all the sense in the world for them to bring him on as the creative director because he just, he knows the product so well. He specified it for years. He's wearing Holland and Sherry suits all the time. And so he's living the brand. And so I think it's really perfect. And I think you and I had this conversation. But I think companies that try and get closer to designers who specify their product a lot and really understand them are very smart. So I say well done to Holland and Sherry for putting him in this position.
- [21:14]
B
Yeah, I think it's cool. I Mean, I think, like, you know, there's lots of, you know, this isn't really a collaboration, but this is, you know, a brand working closely with an interior designer. And I think in some cases, those partnerships feel a little bit more like purely a marketing gimmick. Like, it's like, hey, you get your audience, we'll get our audience, we'll put them together and sort of see what happens on Instagram, and then we'll walk away. But I think when you're a brand who's working with a designer who's really, as you said specified, your product knows it intimately, that's a different kind of partnership. And I do think it's cool to see an interior designer get this kind of role as opposed to someone who's more from the marketing or branding or finance side. I'm obviously not going to hire a finance person to be a creative director, but I think it's cool to see a designer get this role. So I'm excited, excited to see. See what comes of it.
- [21:54]
A
Yeah, no, no, I am, too. So I. I look forward to some exciting announcements around that. Let's move on to navigating a design breakup. Fred.
- [22:02]
B
Last week, BOH managing editor Haley Chouinard spoke to designers Ava Bradley and Alicia Chung, who decided to amicably uncouple the firm they ran together, Studio Himat, and launched two separate studios. Interesting article. Interesting look at something that happens a lot. Partnerships break up all the time in this industry, but designers don't usually talk about it. What'd you think, Dennis?
- [22:21]
A
Well, first of all, my read was, wow, what mature people they were to have handled this the way that they did. I mean, they were so thoughtful and strategic and really put a lot of time into talking this through and thinking about the clients and how best to handle this. Because partnerships, as you and I have discussed in the past, are challenging. Case in point, when I first started working for Suzanne Lovell, the firm was actually called Lovell Hilton. Wait a second. Eric Hilton was the other partner and didn't work out. And so I'll leave that there.
- [22:59]
B
Full circle on that one. Well, I mean, yeah, first of all, yeah, I do think it was a great piece. And Hayley, who did the interview for it, was saying that it's rare for a business of home interview for there to be tears. But I do think these two designers are very thoughtful. They approach this very openly, and it's an emotional thing to split up with a partner that you've had for nine years, and they certainly should be commended for it. Or doing it very thoughtfully. I think it's interesting, as you were saying, partnerships do often, they often end in the design industry. I don't know how else to put it. I think in some cases it's as simple as one partner moves away. That's what happened with Studio High Mod is that Ava was moving to Charleston, Alicia is based in San Francisco. So of course it's difficult to make that work long distance. It's often just circumstances of life that prevent people that end these partnerships. That's one thing, but. But sometimes it's just, it's difficult to make the relationship work. It's funny, before we started recording, we were trying to think of partnerships that have really lasted and there are examples. Disc Interiors in LA is one. Nikki Kehoe, you were saying, is a great partnership that stood the test of time. But a lot of them do kind of end up ending and it's kind of too bad. I don't know. Do you think there's any one reason why that's the case or is it just creative partnerships are tough, full stop.
- [24:16]
A
I think there are so many reasons why it's challenging. I remember years ago when Charlotte Moore Moss and David Easting came together and everybody thought, oh my gosh, this is going to revolutionize the industry, these two giants coming together. But I think it's hard. And I think that the best partnerships. And you mentioned Nikki Kehoe and I think it was clear when I spoke with them how much respect they have for each other, how much admiration, how they find strength in each other. And I think those are the best partnerships. And I think that it's. When you talk to people who are thinking about it, they often see it as, oh, we're going to have to share the revenue or we're going to have to, am I going to be doing more work than the other person? Or how is it all going to work? I mean, there are so many ways that it can go wrong. Whose name is going to be first on the letterhead? Right. Who's the one who's going to be the front person with the client and who's really making the decisions? I mean, it's riddled with complications. Take it from me.
- [25:23]
B
I think the partnerships that work are ones where people have very clearly defined roles, where there's someone who's like, I am happy doing this, I'm not happy doing that. You are happy doing that, you're not happy doing this. That's when I think it works. But it's funny, I think it's really easy to Be kind of cynical about partnerships and just say, oh, they're never going to work in the long term, blah, blah, blah. But I do think that having a partner, especially in the early days of starting a firm, works for so many people because. Because it's difficult, it's daunting to go out on your own. You can rely on somebody to sort of fill the gaps in your own skill set. You can grow together, you can share the burden of the stress, and it can be a lonely profession. And I think that just because partnerships do often come to an end over the scope of the entire lifespan of a firm, I don't think that should discourage people from trying to do them in the first place. I just think you should go into them understanding that it's possible this may end someday and we should approach this as maturely as studio high mod. I think. I think just because they end is not necessarily a reason not to do them in the first place.
- [26:20]
A
No, and I couldn't agree more. And please don't let my takeaway be don't form a partnership, because I honestly think they can be one of the most rewarding ways to go through this business possible. You just have to go into it knowing that it's very complicated. And again, there are days that you really have to. To put your ego and everything else aside for the success of the business, and that often is the most challenging part. But I wish everyone a great partnership. That's how I feel. Okay, next up, we're going to talk about dopamine decor. In the Washington Post this week, Catherine O'Shea Evans asks designers for their take on dopamine decor, a viral trend that involves making design choices that spark joy. Fred, did this article spark joy for you?
- [27:09]
B
I'm gonna just stop this conversation right off the bat and say, aren't all design choices supposed to spark joy? Like, why is it a viral trend to have design that makes you happy? Are you as confused by this as I am? I don't quite get it.
- [27:23]
A
Well, you know, it's interesting that you say that, Fred, because I feel like recently there have been a lot of conversations going around about all this beige ification. And recently we were talking the neutrals running the world, right? And I felt like this article was about, you know what people. Take some chances, bring some color into your project, find some things that make you happy, find some things that actually reveal you live here, versus so many of the designs that we see today where it's hard to tell who lives there.
- [27:59]
B
The thing is, the premise of the article is that, you know, what it often is interpreted as is a lot of bright colors. You know, the thesis behind having your interior give you happ happiness and individuality is a good one, but when you see it on TikTok often, that turns into, here's my dopamine decor living room, look at my fluorescent yellow sofa. And I think that the premise of the article was like, okay, let's take the idea and the philosophy, but let's pair it back and talk about ways to give your home this spirit without going crazy with the super bright color. So certainly a great angle by Catherine, who's a great design writer, and there were some great takes. Brittany Bromley, designer, talked about how, let's not go crazy with the fluorescence, let's do earthy colors. Liz Potorazu talked about how she has a wellness room that she calls her dopamine den. I definitely need one of those in my apartment, but I just thought it was, you know, I think this is a good trend. It just sort of makes me think, like, well, how did we get away from this in the first place? Like, how did we get away from our home supposed to be making us happy.
- [28:59]
A
Well, and again, I think that is the bigger conversation in all of this. I think, think how did we get swept away on some algorithmic wave that just took us to this place of, again, neutrality, for lack of a better word. But this beige ification. I was so happy when Dan Campbell told us that gray at least was over. Gray is over, and beige and neutrals have taken over. But I also, I loved the notion of just having there be a comedic wink was referred to in the piece. And I find it so fun when, again, you just. It doesn't even have to be anything wild like colorful wallpaper or as you say, the bright yellow sofa. But even if there are just some objects in the room that just tell us a little bit about you and maybe bring a laugh. So I think it's really. Personalization can mean so many things. And I think calling it dopamine makes it sound like a micro trend or something. And maybe people that ruffles people's feathers and is unwelcome. But I actually like a lot of what this piece is calling out.
- [30:15]
B
I know now I just feel bad for the people who beige activates their dopamine. I mean, those people are out there. Those people are out there. I feel for them.
- [30:23]
A
And nothing against the beiges, but I was so glad to see a piece that sort of clearly set some people free. All right, that's it for the news. But there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including advice from business coach Gail Dobie on employee compensation and a guide to ethical sourcing. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break. We're taking a quick break from the show to hear about Hector Finch, who's a proud sponsor of this year's Kips Bay Decorator show house in Palm Beach. Visit February 22 through March 16 to see how the company collaborated with designers throughout the house to install lighting products in seven rooms. And while you're in town, be sure to also visit the new Benjamin Peterson showroom at 1200 North Dixie highway in Lake Worth, where you can see a wide range of fixtures from the Hector Finch collection. See the collection online@heworfinch.com and buy tickets to visit the show house at kipsbayedecoratorshowhouse.org this season, Jaipur Living introduces their new cozy collection of textured rugs. Bring warmth and style into the home with high, low depths, rich materials and designs that never go out of style. Whether you're curling up with hot cocoa or sprucing up your space for spring, start with the rug. Start with Jaipur Living. Visit JaipurLiving.com to join their trade program and become part of the Jaipur Living family. And now back to the show. And we're back. I'm joined now by Cyrus Laloy, one of the co founders of the new venture we're going to talk about today. June laloy, Cyrus, thank you so much for being here.
- [32:17]
C
Absolutely. Thanks for having me back on the show.
- [32:19]
A
I'm delighted to have you back. And we have talked on the show about June Laloy, but I'm eager to hear from you about how it all got started and everything that led up to this decision. Let's tell people first what June Laloy is.
- [32:36]
C
Yeah. So June Laloy is our sister business that's direct to consumer. And it is not just rugs and pillows that Laloy is known for for 20 years. It's also total home furnishings brand. So it's, it's furniture, it's lighting, it's decor, it's art, it's all of it. And so it was a very ambitious project, something my brother and I have dreamed up for a while. And so far, so good. It's about nine weeks old now.
- [33:04]
A
We are nine weeks in. And so I'm, I'm eager to hear how it, how the first nine weeks have been. But tell me when the idea first popped up and who had the idea and who came to who about the whole thing? Tell me.
- [33:19]
C
Probably about two years ago, we really sat down and kind of created a plan, hired a team, set the vision for what we wanted to accomplish. And it's just been a dream of my brother and I's for a while now. I think we mainly saw a void in the market for a retailer in this industry that was aspirational in terms of. Of the product design and quality and how it presents itself, but then also reasonably attainable in terms of. In terms of value, basically, that democratization of good design that Laloy is known for.
- [33:54]
A
So tell me what democratization of design means to you. We've been having a lot of conversations recently about this notion, and when it crept into our world in a meaningful way, what's your understanding of what that means? Means?
- [34:09]
C
Yeah, I think for me that means availability. So it's. It's about making good design available at a really good value and making it, like, pretty accessible. I think generally D2C models kind of pride themselves on that accessibility and how easy it is to shop, but then also from like a just a product perspective, making sure that we're delivering high quality but at a reasonable price. And that's. That's kind of how June Laloy positions itself. And that was kind of intentional from.
- [34:42]
A
The beginning when you first had the idea or when you started to get really serious. So it sounds like you first had the idea many years ago. Right. And then we're just kind of batting it around in, oh, one day. Was there anything in particular that accelerated the desire to move forward? Was there something you were seeing at the various markets that you were showing? Was there some. Something you were seeing with the retail industry or what made you want to diversify? Because it sounds like that's how you think about this, diversifying the business.
- [35:13]
C
We've had conversations, Dennis, between you and I before, about is it possible for a brand, this industry, to create a brand that not just the trade is aware of and respects, but that also consumers know of? I think that's really hard. And so I thought of June Alloy as a way to be a rising tide for both brands. The D2C business model requires a lot of advertising. So while in the beginning, you know, June Laloy benefits from the equity of the Laloy name, I think in the long term, we think Laloy is actually going to be a beneficiary of June Laloy's awareness and stature in the industry. So in that sense, as both businesses continue to grow and develop, we think they're Going to be very symbiotic relationship there. That actually helps a lot of our trade customers who buy from the LOY because we think the LOY names have become, I think more meaningful to the consumer as the years go on. The other thing that I think comes to mind for me is June laloy benefits from a lot of the existing resources and infrastructure that laloy has. All that kind of stuff that makes it, I think, I wouldn't say is easy, but much easier for June laloy to launch than it would be, be any other kind of newcomer in this industry in the DTC space. Even if they had the capital, there's still all this other industry know how and infrastructure you have to build up.
- [36:35]
A
Yeah, I mean that's a great point. And you, and you mentioned also earlier the costs involved in launching and continuing to generate business for a DTC brand. And we've had had so many conversations recently about how dramatically those costs have increased over recent years and how challenging it is to not have a physical presence and having to build a digital business. So I mean, how did you think about it and is part of the reason why you had to wait until now was that you needed to have enough money in the bank to really be able to do it in a meaningful, meaningful way?
- [37:18]
C
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think June laloy has a couple unique advantages. It's kind of like a, a 20 year old startup, if you will, where it has that, that brand equity that laloi has. So it's, it's probably getting some direct traffic due to the Laloy name and consumers are aware of Laloy and so forth. And then you know, all these other expenses that you're speaking of, a lot of that for us is existing infrastructure, existing staff that we have and all of that makes kind of the total overhead for June Laloy a little bit more palatable. And Malloy is fully privately owned. It's all a family. So there's not that outside pressure from private equity or what have you to make an immediate return. So we're able to kind of just go at our own pace, make really thoughtful decisions and think long term. And I think that's why, why this dynamic kind of allowed us to do this in an environment where, let's be honest, there's not a lot of great, great stories out there from home furnishings retailers, particularly the kind of online centric ones in the last year or so.
- [38:28]
A
Well, so speaking of it being a family business and family funded, so do you have to go to dad and say so dad, we really want to launch this D2C brand, and it's going to be really cool, but we are going to need boatload of money to do it. Tell me how that whole conversation went down.
- [38:50]
C
Yeah, I mean, certainly we had to convince Amir that we thought it was a good idea. And we presented a plan and kind of forecasted where we could be in the first couple years. And I think at this point of our career, he knew it was a dream of ours for Steven and me, and we've maybe gained his trust over the years, I don't know. So, you know, I'll say this. He's exclusively focused on Malloy, much to my surprise. I thought once we started building this thing, he wasn't going to be able to help himself. And he's going to want to get involved and have opinions, particularly on the rugs and so forth, but he's been surprisingly, like, really hands off, and he's really, really focused on the Lloyd business, as we all are. But, yeah, he's given us a long leash and certainly don't want to let him down, so.
- [39:43]
A
And you think he recognized in part that. I mean, it sounds like from what you're saying, part of the dream was, hey, I saw my dad created this amazing business. Could Stephen and I do the same thing?
- [39:55]
C
Yeah, I think there's a bit of that element to it in terms of maybe seeing a little bit of himself in us. But then also, I think he recognizes it was. Was. It was probably healthy for the business. I mean, as long as we don't bet the farm on it. Diversifying the business is always. Is always healthy. Right. And we saw this as a way to grow. We knew we couldn't just take Leloy D2C. That would have created a lot of ill will with Malloy's retailers. Instead, I think we did it the hard way. We created an entirely separate product line that's mutually exclusive from what Leloy offers to ensure to be like, no conflicts for our retailers. And more than that, it was kind of like a symbolic gesture to the trade. Like, hey, Laloy is still entirely separate, still 100% focused on the trade. June Laloy is also for trade professionals, if, you know, interior designers and the like want to participate in the trade program, but the Loy remains 100% to the trade, and that's our focus.
- [40:53]
A
Well, and I'm glad you raised that point because. Because one of the things that I wanted to understand better was your whole risk assessment in all of this. So you just mentioned. Oh, it didn't make sense to take Leloy itself direct to consumer because that was perhaps going to alienate some of your retail partners some of the trade. So how did you think about how to gently step into this other business business, not lose some of your relationships? And how much did you think that there would be designers who might be cross or irritated about this?
- [41:34]
C
Yeah, good question. I actually read that piece that Fred wrote for Business at Home around what makes a good trade program. And it talked about exclusivity. But then more important than that, it talked about pricing protection. And so we thought in those terms also. And the only way for Leloy to really do that was to create a separate, separate product line and separate sister business for June Laloy. So I think that mutual exclusivity is like the first tenet of kind of how we thought about this. And the other thing was just good communication. In the period of time before we launched, we had a lot of communication and messages to our customers saying, hey, this is what's coming. This is why we are doing it. This is why it won't present a conflict for your business. If you are an interior designer, you're more than welcome to check out Julloy. We hope you do. But otherwise, I think just a lot of good communication and making sure to keep the product line separate. That's how we're able to manage it.
- [42:32]
A
When you did the outreach to people saying, okay, this is coming your way soon, what do you think? It's all going to be great. I promise you it's going to be a completely different product and you don't have to worry about that. That were there any responses that surprised you or concerned you or did you think, oh, people are going to feel how they're going to feel. We're moving forward.
- [42:55]
C
Yeah, it was really positive. To be honest. I would be lying if I say there wasn't. Part of me there's a little bit worried, just even though we created a different brand, would people still feel like, hey, Laloy's losing their focus? And I even had some retailers approach me at Vegas Market with just kind words. Some of them said kind words about the way the site looked and the way the product looked. But some of them just kind of appreciate the way we went about it, being really transparent with them and just making sure we're keeping them top of mind and bringing them along for the journey. So really fortunate with how the industry has reacted and then not just in terms of lack of, like, you know, any sort of, like, negative response, but really positive from trade professionals. We've had a lot of our existing, you know, design cohort come over and shop June Ly. But then what's also really interesting is, like, we've attracted some new designers that l didn't do business with. You know, I don't know if it's because of the new categories, maybe it's the collaboration we just launched with Heidi, but I think that suggests that we're not cannibalizing in our existing business. And that was, you know, absolutely goal number one. So we really kind of went all out. And I think the industry feels that. I think people get that, and they're responding. They're responding to that. There's probably also, like, a. What is there in America? How many interior designers? Like, somewhere between 50,000 to 80,000. I see different numbers, but something thereabouts. Right. So, yeah, I think what's dangerous if you work in marketing or you work in sales, you operate a business industry, is to assume that everyone shops the same way or that everyone's coming to High Point. High Point and Vegas. They're extremely important, don't get me wrong, extremely important for connecting with your customers, allowing them to see what you're about in person, having them experience who you are, what you're all about. Repeat business, acquiring new customers, building industry contacts and friends. Like, it's still like just the CES of our industry. Right. But there are. There are some folks that they don't want to go to market.
- [45:08]
A
No, no. I. I mean, and you and I have had this conversation. I'm always amazed at every High Point market. I'm being introduced to some designer who's been in the business for years, and they're telling me it's their first time at High Point. Right. And I'm thinking crazy, right?
- [45:21]
C
Yeah.
- [45:21]
A
Yes, exactly. But, you know, people have different perceptions of markets and how relevant they are or aren't to them. And so. So I get it. And I know that you have long felt that there were just many people you weren't reaching for one reason or another. And I think a lot of companies feel this way. And I also think taking a chance on launching this kind of business, if nothing else, teaches you so much about the marketplace, what's really going on, what people really respond to, and speaking to the. This. To this wider audience, I. I think just can't help but be beneficial. And there have to be learnings you can take back to the other brand as well.
- [46:10]
C
Yes, yes. And we're still. We're still a baby, right? Nine weeks Old, but yeah, exactly. It's been a really, it's been a really fun ride thus far and, and we're learning a lot. I mean, all sorts of quirks. Like people don't seem to mind waiting for made to order items. So we're learning a lot there. I think there's some categories like sectionals and lighting that we're still learning. And then the collaborations. We launched our first one with Heidi, we'll launch another one on February 24th and the Heidi one has performed extremely well. Yeah, there's certain things that work for Malloy that also work for June Laloy and there's some that we're finding out. Like, yeah, this doesn't really translate. So it's all really fascinating.
- [46:52]
A
Absolutely. And I'm glad that you mentioned the collaboration and congratulations on the collaboration with Heidi and I know that designer collaborations have done so much to help build awareness for Leloy and really secure that brand in designers minds. Tell me how you thought about Heidi and June Laloy and why those made sense together.
- [47:15]
C
It was great timing. I mean, she's reached such a park in her career where she's now like 8100. You know, you see her in the media everywhere. Her projects are just getting more and more stunning. We're such big, big fans and she takes like a bold approach to everything that she does. And so it was a real kind of joy getting to work with her. And you know, we feel really fortunate. Like Heidi took a leap of faith. Right. She didn't even know we didn't have a name for the new business when she agreed to join and be a collaboration partner for this. Really just so soon after we launched and thus far, so far, so good on that. So that's been really rewarding.
- [47:59]
A
It's interesting because so often there's this debate with consumer facing brands. To your point, we in the industry all love Heidi and know who Heidi is and have watched her career blossom and growing and we always think, is she recognizable to the average consumer? Does it need to be some TV star? Does it need to be somebody who has some Hollywood connection? But you chose somebody who was well known and beloved in the industry and I'm curious how you think about that.
- [48:33]
C
Ideally, a partner brings authenticity and scale. That's like the, the, the golden combination. And I think Heidi has more scale and more reputation with the consumers than maybe some realize. A lot of the sales for Heidi's products are coming from consumers. There are trade pros buying it too, don't get me wrong. But there, there is like a consumer appetite for her aesthetic and, and her product line with us. And I think the decision to launch her, you know, before any other collaborations, that was. Is almost kind of a symbolic gesture to our trade audience that shops June laloy to let them know, like, hey, Juneau Loy is very much a resource for you. Yes, it's available to the consumer, but we're very enthusiastic about winning the trades business. And that's something that I'm like constantly watching for because to me, like, the trade's like the ultimate shopper. Right. I'm not saying, like marketing doesn't matter to them, but they're not going to be like, charmed by some Facebook campaign or pretty content, whatever it may be. Like, they're seasoned shoppers. They, they know good from bad in this industry. And if you can win them over, you know, we know we're doing something right from a product perspective. So the fact that we're already getting a healthy amount of trade business, business, that to me is like, if the trade likes us and they think the products are strong, then I know the consumer will too.
- [50:05]
A
Well, and again, you mentioned Fred's piece about trade programs, and in our recent discussion about it, we were detecting an evolution in how designers felt about brands making themselves more widely available. And I think more and more designers recognize that there's an air of inevitability around that. It's how you go about it and whether you can still continue to protect designers with their pricing or just create different products so that it's not apples to apples comparison with your direct to consumer product versus your trade product, sort of all of that. And I know that you thought about that a lot.
- [50:54]
C
Yeah, it's an interesting thing. We're always trying to keep a pulse on it. You know, how much is the industry changing? How much is it staying the same? I, I do talk to some designers that really value exclusivity at market or, or when I bump into designers. And that can mean different things, right? Like, you know, it's like exclusivity means like, for some designers, it's. I want to go to Milan to source this thing so they can be entirely bespoke and no one else can have it. And that's what I want to do for my client, this project. And that's. That's awesome. And then there's certain designers are like, well, I just want you to be exclusive to the trade. And there's some designers are like, well, I just want a trade discount. And there's some designers that are Completely indifferent. So I think there's different preferences and even for designers working on the same project, a lot of them recognize like, hey, okay, this item I want to be, be entirely bespoke and custom and no one else has it. But I don't need the entire project to be full of those items. I can mix and match and create something really interesting in that regard. So that's the way we're seeing it. And we'll certainly keep a pulse on it because like you said, it's just changing all the time.
- [52:07]
A
To your earlier point, what would have been so much easier for you if you could just have just taken Leloi and just done this with Leloy? And what is harder doing it this way?
- [52:21]
C
Oh, how much time do you have? I think that different products was a non negotiable from the very beginning. Probably it would have been a lot easier. I would have had a lot more free time back last year if we didn't launch with all these new categories from the beginning. But that was very intentional. You know, Laloy is known for rugs. Right, Right. And if we launched this new sister business and we just launched it with rugs, it probably could have been, you know, somewhat successful. But we knew that we had these ambitions to be a total home furnishings brand with June Laloy. And if you start to dabble and you do that like incrementally or over time versus all at once, you only have one chance at a first impression. I think that in this industry, people don't reward dabblers. They want people that, hey, they really put both feet in, they're fully invested, they're very serious about these categories because it's gonna take time. You have to win people over in this space. There's a lot of incumbent players, There's a lot of great, great, great competition, doing great products. And so that was very intentional. But you asked me what would have been easier and yeah, that was really the challenge.
- [53:45]
A
Yeah, so it sounds like many things would have been easier if you could have just taken Leloy and just extended it. But suddenly everybody who is buying product abroad has to be at least a lot more conscious and aware that a new administration has brought with it a lot more conversation about tariffs and what can we do to level the playing field and to make it more competitive for people to bring manufacturing back to America and all of that. How are you thinking about that? Does that create anxiety for you? Do you think any of this really happens? What's, what's your thinking around some of these recent Developments here. You are only nine weeks into this new business and we're not that much further into a new administration. That seems right, like it's coming for people who are bringing in product from abroad.
- [54:48]
C
Yeah, we paid the best time. It's hard to predict what this administration will do. Thankfully, we don't have too much exposure to China, Canada and Mexico. And a lot of our products are actually made in the US we do a lot of made to order stuff in these new categories. And so that's probably just what this administration wanted after all, anyway. Right. So in that sense, it's something definitely we're mindful of, to be honest. It's something we're keeping an eye on constantly, more for our B2B business than it is June Malloy. And yeah, I think that this industry is really kind of nervous about this. Right. We thought inflation was getting under control late last year and it was encouraging to see some signs there. And then I think the Consumer Price Index came out last month and it showed an uptick to what, like 3% again, so, so shy from that 2% goal that the Fed wants. What's that going to mean for rate cuts? Probably not good. What's that mean for mortgage rates? Probably not good. So last year we were all saying what, like survived till 25 and now we're going to need.
- [56:08]
A
This was supposed to be the thrive year. This was 25 and thrive.
- [56:12]
C
We need something new for 20, 26, something that rhymes, something that can keep our work on, keep us feeling optimistic and feel like there's some light at the end of the day tunnel. So maybe it's something you and Fred can work on. Maybe, but we need a rallying call there.
- [56:26]
A
But to that point, and you're absolutely right, and this is very much my concern as well, the Federal Reserve in his recent testimony seemed to be suggesting he's not in any hurry to lower rates. And lots of signs that really they perhaps lowered rates too much already and the market's a little spooked about that. And the 10 year is is ringing that bell very loudly. It certainly seems as if the year we hoped was going to be a much easier one. Looks as if it's facing many of the same challenges. Is that your feeling from what you're seeing with business conditions overall?
- [57:03]
C
Yeah, I'm afraid I have to say, yeah, we're seeing and we're feeling that from some of our customers also people we're chatting with at Vegas. That was some of the sentiment. But at the same time, Vegas was busy. The showroom was pretty full, and I think there's probably some just sort of, like, resignation to, like, well, this is. These are the things we cannot control. We need to be mindful of them. But we got to come to market, we got to see fresh product, we got to be fresh, we got to be different, and we got to put our heads down and work for whatever market share we can get. And so I think that's everyone's focus, or that should be everyone's focus this year, and then we'll see what's what with the interest rates and inflation and all those things that we can't control.
- [57:52]
A
And do designers say, yeah, you know, all of this, all of the problems that we've just outlined, they're showing up for me in a meaningful way. Do designers share that or how do they express how they're feeling?
- [58:03]
C
Depends on how you talk to too. Yeah. I think same with vendors, right? You go to some showrooms, it's really busy. Other. Other ones, not so much. And I think it depends on the designer's business. If they're focused on the high end and they have a really strong reputation. I think, for the most part, we've seen them be just, you know, just fine. If there's folks that maybe a little bit more omnichannel, they do some design, they do a little retail, they had a little E commerce business they spun up during COVID like, all that kind of stuff. It just depends on who you talk to. So.
- [58:38]
A
Yeah, no, no, that makes sense. Okay. So for June laloy, you launched your partnership with Heidi Kellyer. And it sounds like, what, in a week or so, another partnership to be announced. You want to give us a hint? Do you want to give us some initials?
- [58:52]
C
I'll give you initials.
- [58:53]
A
L and F. L and F. Okay.
- [58:57]
C
And it's launching on Monday, February 24. It is a rug and pillow collaboration. We've been working with this individual for three years, so extremely excited. Well, yeah, shy of three years. But we've been chatting with them. We've been chatting with them for three years. It's kind of. It's kind of beginning at how this. This kicked off. And then on March 5, we have our spring line launching, and that will include a dining room for the first time. So I have dining tables, dining chairs. So we're staying busy.
- [59:33]
A
Okay, well, that's a lot of product that you.
- [59:36]
B
Wow.
- [59:36]
A
Yeah. You're in the furniture biz.
- [59:39]
C
We are in it. No turning back now.
- [59:43]
A
Well, we're eager to hear who the next collaboration is and see the Future rollouts. I'm excited for you. I'm thrilled to get to talk with you, and I thank you for making the time.
- [59:56]
C
Thank you, Dennis. Thanks for having me on.
- [60:03]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye.
- [60:10]
B
Fred, does pre FOMO exist? Dennis, can you pre have a fear of misunderstanding?
- [60:15]
A
Are you feeling that now?
- [60:16]
B
I'm. I am feeling some pre FOMO because Colin King, podcast former podcast guest and celebrity stylists and designers having a tag sale in New York City. And that, that is going to be the social event of the weekend for sure. It's. It's gonna be Friday, Saturday, Sunday at 500 West 22nd Street. So if you're in New York and you want to go through Colin King's things and buy them, get over there. That, that honestly will be a place to see and be seen. I don't think I can make it, but I'm gonna try and sneak away from my family to go go to Colin King's tag sale. I also quickly. Another former podcast guest house of Hackney. The British textile company is having a fundraising drive to buy themselves out from the clutches of their private equity owners. I think it's only accessible to British people or people in Europe. I'm not totally sure about that, but it's worth heading over to their Instagram. If you happen to be in England and you want to put down some money, maybe you won't get a return, but you will help someone escape the evils of private equity, which is returning. Turn. Enough. I say, Dennis, what caught your eye this week?
- [61:17]
A
Well said. And I. And I hope that they get plenty of people lining up to. To help them out with that endeavor. Two things that caught my eye. One, I was so happy to see Rena coding, another former guest of the podcast. She's. Rita's got a column for El Decor that's. That's just started. This one's about hanging art and all about art in your. In your home, which is a very fun column, and I look forward to future columns from her. And the other, oh, gosh, here I go again, being a rain cloud. But I, I couldn't help but notice the. The home builder confidence numbers, which we talk about sometimes on the show, but they came out yesterday. And, and you know who's worried about tariffs? Fred? Home builders, that's who. Yes, they're. Their confidence numbers dropped to the lowest level in five months, as they called out the fact that 32% of appliances and 30% of softwood lumber comes from abroad. And so we need those trading partners. And the home builders are aware of that. So I was glad to see at least they're, they're aware of that. But what was, what was a concern was they're, they're feeling pretty downbeat about the, the upcoming spring summer selling season. And I was sorry about that. More of a reminder that interest rates are still high, housing prices are still high, and people are not yet feeling like we've got the thrive in 25 mentality going in the home world, which is too bad.
- [62:46]
B
Just end the podcast on a down note.
- [62:48]
A
Dennis Sorry. Sorry about that. I just want to keep people's feet on the ground, Fred. That's my mission today. All right. Alright. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholas and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.