← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: How Rebecca Atwood carves out serious time for creative solitude. Plus: Kelly Wearstler spills her AI toolkit
01:05:59
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, artist and designer Rebecca Atwood joins the show to talk about her new book The Harmonious Home.
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- [00:08]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be talking to Rebecca Atwood about her new book. But first we're gonna catch up on the news, including yet more furniture tariffs, a look at the state of housing and how Kelly Wurstler is using AI to do all that. I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nicholas. Hi, Fred.
- [00:31]
B
Hi, Dennis. How's it?
- [00:32]
A
Pretty good. How you doing?
- [00:33]
B
I'm doing good. I'm trying to think desperately how we can work in the Travis Kelce Taylor Swift engagement. What does that tell us about tariffs, their engagement?
- [00:43]
A
What does that say about the state of the world, Fred? I mean, luckily, I feel like the world was starting to get a little down and this has lifted people up. Right.
- [00:52]
B
The funny thing is I don't follow football. I don't listen to that much Taylor Swift. But it somehow cheered me up. I don't know. I don't know what it is. It was a very powerful little media story. And I joke, but there was online LinkedIn. There was a lot of this is, this is what this one photo says about the state of fabric or whatever. So I think we're going to spare listeners our take on that. But that was fun.
- [01:13]
A
It seemed to be good for signet jewelers and that beautiful diamond ring that people saw. So I'm happy for them. Exactly. Listen, I'm happy for both of them and Lord knows we could use a distraction. So it's welcome.
- [01:25]
B
Who's their designer going to be? That's the big. That's when we can weigh in in full with a full segment on the Thursday show. That little tidbit is one we're not going to be talking about at the very end of the show during our patented Caught My Eye segment where we come back after the interview and talk about a few things that caught our eye in the industry. I know Dennis is embarrassed by this plug, but I'm going to make it anyway. Stick around.
- [01:47]
A
I'll be sticking around to the end of the show, Fred. That's what I'm going to say. I'll be sticking around.
- [01:51]
B
Well, that makes two of us. Let's quickly look back on Monday's episode, an interview with Hendrix Churchill, a cool architecture design duo from Connecticut, a very.
- [02:01]
A
Fun couple who had an interesting similar experience in that both of their fathers had built the homes that they grew up in. And so they learned a lot firsthand about what can go right and perhaps what can go wrong.
- [02:17]
B
There was more of the what can go wrong in the conversation than the what can go right. But yeah, they were really funny. They had a very funny dynamic, I should say. Of course, it's Rafe Churchill and Heidi Hendricks. I should have said that. But just a little thing too. I also love they talked about this place, Hancock Shaker Village. Have you heard of that? Dennis, you ever visited Hancock Shaker Village?
- [02:35]
A
I have, yes. Yeah.
- [02:36]
B
That is a great little design gem we have here in the Northeast, like this old Shaker Village, beautiful colors. And it's funny because when I was looking at their work, I was like, I bet they like Hancock Shaker Village because of the colors. What really reminded me of that. So a little travel tip for our Northeastern listeners.
- [02:52]
A
Yeah, I mean, and speaking of travel tips, as you'll find out when you listen to the episode, they are actually working on a hospitality side of the business and there'll be some places to stay of Hendrix Churchill in the future. A whole side business, a whole additional business. I guess I should say that's getting off the ground. But as you say, it's a very meaty conversation about a lot of things that people need to be focused on in their business. And I got a lot of notes from people saying it was very helpful to hear that conversation. So I'm glad about that. I hope that everyone gets something out of it. In the meantime, we'll take a quick break and we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Ernesta. Instantly transform your client's home and deliver on their personal vision with Ernesta's high quality custom size rugs. Featuring a wide selection of premium materials and timeless designs, each of Ernesta's custom size rugs is cut to order and delivered in as little as two to four weeks. And with Ernesta's exclusive trade member benefits, you get exclusive discounts, dedicated support and unlimited samples. To learn more about Ernesta's trade program, visit ernesta.com boh and now on with the show. And we're back. First up, Fred, tariffs.
- [04:27]
B
Here we are again. Just when you thought it was safe to move on. Last week President Trump announced that within 50 days his administration would be investigating furniture imports and more tariffs are on their way. Let's hear it from him directly.
- [04:43]
A
But we're going to rebuild North Carolina furniture and other places, South Carolina too, to a lesser extent, they make furniture, but furniture we're going to put a very substantial tariff on. We've already announced it. It'll be done pretty quickly and when that happens, everyone's going to start. I just tell you North Carolina go out and start getting the grandchildren and the children, start teaching them.
- [05:08]
B
Poor South Carolina to a lesser extent a little bit.
- [05:12]
A
Going to help South Carolina a little bit, but not we're going to mostly focus on North Carolina.
- [05:17]
B
I mean, we should just quickly say, you know, I think listeners of the show will be, wait, why is this new? We've been talking about tariffs for the past, you know, it seems like 10 years now. You know, up until now, all the tariffs we've been talking about have been on mostly on countries or materials. Like they've been on steel and aluminum or they've been on China, Vietnam, et cetera. You know, if this happens, it'll be the first sort of category specific tariffs on furniture. So wherever it's coming from, it'll be tariffed as it comes into the U.S. if indeed this actually does come to pass. What was your reaction to this, Dennis?
- [05:45]
A
Utter shock and amazement. And we'll talk a little bit later in the show about there was some good news that was coming out at the time that this was announced, and everybody was feeling a little bit relieved. And then suddenly we got this news that they're looking into furniture imports. That was what was so curious about it, too, as if there's something nefarious going on. We've only just discovered that, wait a sec. A lot of our furniture seems to come from overseas and we're looking into it. What hit me the most, Fred, was I was thinking about how often recently we've talked on the show about, gee, you know, the outdoor furniture market has really taken off in recent years thanks to Covid, and we're importing all of this teak furniture for the outdoors. And guess what, Fred? That is all coming from abroad. That is all coming from overseas. And all I kept thinking about was, oh, this is only going to be worse for all the people bringing in that outdoor furniture.
- [06:44]
B
Among the people that we talked to, the reaction was universally negative. I feel like people kind of kept their powder dry on LinkedIn about, you know, the country specifically. A lot of let's remain calm and see what happens among CEOs. But the reaction to this one, people really were not shy about coming out. The mayor of High Point came out against it. Everyone is just saying, oh, God, this is the last thing we need. I guess I'm just curious just to play devil's advocate. Is there a chance that this does, in some way, if it comes to pass, play some difference in bringing some manufacturing jobs back? Is that a total pipe dream? What's your take on that.
- [07:19]
A
Well, again, Fred, I'll go back to my outdoor furniture comments initially because much of that business just can't. Because, again, just all of the raw materials that are required for this product are just overseas. We're not the teak forests of South Carolina. Exactly, exactly. I also thought it was interesting that he mentioned North Carolina when, as you and I know so well and we talked about just last week, there's an awful lot of furniture that's coming out of California these days. And I'm certain that the president doesn't want to be seen to be helping the industries in California. But the question about whether manufacturing is really going to come back in a meaningful way, I don't think anybody in the industry, especially anyone that's been in the industry through multiple cycles, really believes that meaningful production is coming back. Are we training some people to make upholstered furniture? And are we trying to encourage young people to look at furniture production and manufacturing as a good career alternative, as some people are nervous about art, artificial intelligence and its impact? Sure, absolutely. But the case goods industry in a meaningful way, nobody thinks that's coming back. And all of the areas where they can just make at such scale and at such low cost, nobody imagines that's really returning. I mean, have you heard otherwise?
- [08:47]
B
No. Especially in case goods. And I just want to shout out this guy, Thomas Russell, who's an editor at a competing publication, but a very good one, Home News now, he was talking about in words dripping with sarcasm like, like this is not coming back magically. You put like a 50% tariff on furniture. It's not going to immediately lead to like 20,000 case goods making jobs. And he gave a very detailed breakdown of the industry has always followed lower cost labor, whether that's moving from state to state. It moved overseas. There's not these young people who Trump talked about, they're not trained. It's going to take millions, billions of dollars in subsidies to get them there. And I'm not sure that's coming along with tariffs. So he has a very good breakdown of why it's unrealistic, especially for case goods to come back. Upholstery. I think there might actually be some meaningful growth there. So we shouldn't be, I don't know. I'm just always a little bit wary of being so negative on these because I do think that we have plenty of domestic upholstery production. And I'm sure some of those people are looking at this and going, well, if this doesn't tank the economy, then maybe there's something in this for me. So I don't want to be dismissive of that.
- [09:49]
A
No. But again, I think, unfortunately, the intention to help the industry, I think as we heard from people almost universally, this is going to do more damage to the industry than be a help. So while there might be some upholstery production that benefits from this and there might be some other segments of the market that benefit, there is real fear and concern, particularly with the timing of this announcement as the industry will be heading to high point in North Carolina, as a matter of fact. Right about October 25th. Exactly. And so, and so we'll all be heading to fall market and everyone is trying to figure out what are things going to be priced, how are we going to talk to our customers about this? What do we imagine happen? And this is just what happened before, back in April when this announcement was made and these huge tariffs were introduced. Now, many of them were dialed back, but certainly not in the case of India, as we'll talk about, and some of the other areas where we're getting an awful lot of furniture and related products.
- [11:00]
B
Yeah. I mean, I guess we should say, like it depends on what this number for furniture is if indeed it comes to pass, if it's like 5%, you know, I think High Point will be a lot different than if it's 50. So we'll, we'll just have to hold our breath and see. But as you mentioned. Yeah. India, you know, the tariff of 25% was announced earlier this month, but there is this stipulation about if India keeps buying oil from Russia, then it's going to go up to 50% on August 27th. And that's why a lot of people who import block printed textiles were watching a summit between Putin and Trump, like hoping they could make a deal, but they didn't really. And lo and behold, that 50% hammer just dropped today. We're recording on Wednesday. So I was just talking with someone who imports textiles from India and they said they have an immediate big tariff bill to pay. They're going to be raising prices. Everybody's going to be raising prices in the short term or they're going to be hitting pause. That's also very likely. So some people are saying, you know, Trump and Modi, the prime minister of India, are going to make a deal. It's going to be worked out. But for the time being, that number is real and it's going to have an impact on pricing. Nobody can absorb 50%. It's just not a thing.
- [11:58]
A
Yeah. I mean, as I say we're going to be, we're going to be at high point in October, and unfortunately, there's an awful lot of product from India on those sales floors. And people are going to be trying to figure out what they're going to do with, with pricing and, and how they're going to articulate to, to customers what the, what the plan is moving forward, we'll have to see. But nobody can eat that much of a, of a tariff and not pass it on. All right, we're going to move on to housing, hoping that's a better conversation for once. There are a few bright spots. Home Depot and Lowe's reported some good numbers. Warren Buffett made a major investment in home builders, and to top it off, a rate cut may be on the horizon. So, finally, a little bit of good news in all of this. Fred, what did you make of it?
- [12:41]
B
Well, let's start with the bad news. Let's bring it right back to the.
- [12:44]
A
Let's bring the room back down again.
- [12:46]
B
Yeah, well, I mean, I think there are a lot of little tiny green shoots popping up that we're going to talk about, but I think we should be candid and real about. The housing market continues to be bad. I was just reading a report from realtor.com that referred to this as the Anna Karenina housing market. A nice little literary reference for everybody that, you know, it famously starts with, you know, all happy families are alike. Every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. And the point they were making was everybody in the market, buyers, sellers, every region is having some version of a problem. So, yeah, so we're still in a, you know, a very difficult housing market. Transactions are at a very, very low point. I Forget whether it's 30 years or 50 years or 3 eons or whatever it is, but we're still at a very low point there. Affordability is very difficult, and we're not building enough new houses. We're 4 million houses short. Apparently, there's all these signals that indicate especially this is the summer buying season, and it just hasn't been going well. So we're still definitely in a rough patch. And that is very real. And I just want to caveat everything we're about to say about green shoots with the acknowledgment that things are still bad. But we did see some relatively good numbers from Home Depot and Lowe's, which are sort of bellwethers for housing. What was your take on those earnings call, Dennis?
- [13:58]
A
Well, right, we saw some relatively good numbers, and what we've seen in this past quarter across the board with earnings from companies that you would think would be hugely impacted by tariffs or hugely impacted by the slowdown in the housing market, is that companies have found ways to become remarkably efficient in this very challenging environment. We talked about Wayfair's earnings a while back and how they've scaled back their costs as much as they possibly could. And so the numbers actually look good. They turned up profit. With Home Depot and Lowe's, you've got these sprawling operations where they just continue to find efficiencies, even though they will tell you that there are fewer and fewer large scale projects going on. Lots of little projects, but not a lot of big projects going on. And so they, they see things getting a little bit better. They've both made enormous investments in the more professional, the more trade side of their business. They're after what they refer to as the pro side of their business, contractors, builders, both making big acquisitions in that space. And that suggests perhaps that they're positioning themselves for when they do see the turn in housing, they'll be well positioned to benefit from it again. It wasn't, oh, happy days are here again. But it certainly was better than what a lot of people were fearing out of both of those companies.
- [15:33]
B
Yeah, agreed. And I mean, I think we should say, why is it important to talk about Home Depot and Lowe's? There's sort of this chronological thing that happens where at least the conventional wisdom goes is that once housing bounces back, then people start spending on these kinds of renovations and projects and they go to Home Depot and Lowe's and get all the stuff that they need for their homes and then six to nine months later, they need to put furniture in them. And so you'll see those results start to show up for retailers and, you know, designers are in the mix there as well. So the conventional wisdom is furniture companies always look at Home Depot and Lowe's and they're going like, okay, what they're experiencing right now, now is what I'm going to experience in six to nine months. And presumably designers can sort of tag onto that wisdom as well. What these results sort of tell me is that six to nine months from now, it's not that things are going to be radically better than they are now. That was not what these numbers are. They're not a huge bounce back, but they are sort of this feeling of it's not going to get worse. It is, I think, only up to go from here. He said nervously.
- [16:30]
A
No, it's a great point. They're hoping that we are seeing some of the worst of it, and guess what? But so is Warren Buffett. Warren Buffett and his team, they think, you know, let's step up and make some fairly sizable investments in some home builders, in part because, you know what? Everyone's so negative right now. It's a time that Warren Buffett and his team love to come into a market when they perceive there being blood in the streets or a lot of negative sentiment. That's when they often make some big bets. And they made some sizable investments in Lennar and Dr. Horton, and they've already gotten some pretty big positions in the home world. They own Benjamin Moore, they own some great big furniture stores and some other parts of the home world. So they're making a bet that again, maybe it's not the very bottom, but maybe we're closer to the bottom than perhaps we were before.
- [17:28]
B
Yeah. And this is another, maybe slightly greener shoot. I want to say. I want to rate our shoots by greenness. I mean, I think it's just a reminder. The housing market that we're in now is not going to be forever. It feels like forever because it's been this way for a couple of years now, and everyone keeps predicting that it's going to be better next quarter, survive to 25 and thrive. And, you know, you get tired of hearing that and repeating it, and I think that there is some exhaustion around that. But look, we are 4 million homes short in the U.S. someone's going to have to build them. And I think Warren Buffett and his team are betting that these two companies, that they spent almost a billion dollars buying stock in, Lennar and Dr. Horton, are going to be some of the people who build those 4 million homes. And I think that it would be ridiculous to say it's going to happen next year or the year after. I don't know. But I do think there's a growing sense of, look, we have to catch up on the home stock, and that's going to lead to a lot of new homes, and that's going to hopefully lead to projects for designers. And again, a mildly green shoot.
- [18:25]
A
One of the things that got lost in all of this that we've been talking about is, is what we thought last week, Fred. Just last week, Fred, we thought was gonna be what everyone was going to be focused on. So a bunch of Fed officials get together every year at Jackson Hole and have a great big summit. And at the end of it, the Fed chairman comes out and sends out some smoke signals about where he thinks rates might be going. And he came out and made some remarks and pretty much in the market's mind anyway, sealed the deal for a rate cut at least in September. A lot of financial institutions think there are a lot more rate cuts coming after that. But at least he seemed to, as much as he ever does seem to be willing to say, yeah, you're probably right to bet on a rate cut in September. And certainly the market has absolutely gone along believing that will be the case. And as we know, everyone is hoping the housing market will open back up if in fact rates come down. We'll have to see. But that was supposed to be the.
- [19:35]
B
Big story, our greenest of green shoots. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it was funny because the announcement from the Fed came out on Friday afternoon and a lot of stocks jumped on that news and then the furniture tariff thing came out like an hour later and then they all dropped back down again. So it was a very roller coaster y afternoon. But I mean, just to kind of wrap this up, I think, I think, as is always the case, any given designer might be having the best year of their career this year. Certainly there's a lot of people doing really well out there. But I do hear anecdotally that the drag on the housing market is real. It's affecting new leads coming into people's pipelines. And I feel like what all this news is just pointing to is just a reminder that this too shall pass. If you're having a difficult year because of the housing market this year, at some point it will turn around, things will get a little heated again, and there's going to be more, you know, jobs coming in that pipeline. So, you know, again, if you're like, what, housing market slow down? I'm having my best year ever. Then, you know, ignore the last 10 minutes. But if you're, if you're feeling a little bit glum about it, I do think this is just a reminder that everything is temporary, even housing.
- [20:40]
A
Moving on, we're going to talk about viral designs. Fred for Dwell.
- [20:44]
B
Last week, Kelly Faircloth explored what it takes for product designers to turn social media success into a viable business. Spoiler alert. It takes a lot and it doesn't always work out. What'd you think of this article, Dennis?
- [20:57]
A
Well, what I loved about one of the focuses of this piece was a woman named Allie Harrison who had built a piece of furniture called the homebody chair that really she had built for herself and had never intended to turn it into a mass production piece. And she later followed up with this video of God. Here are all the problems with it. It's a little bit jank top, doesn't really fit on properly, but it was a reminder that you might not be ready for prime time when a video of something that you made goes viral. And actually turning this into a business for her and others who were talked about in this article is probably far more challenging than you might think.
- [21:43]
B
Yeah, that's sort of the interesting thing about the media moment we're in now is that you can have something that is viewed by a billion people and everyone's like, oh, this is so amazing, and make zero doll. It's a very strange, kind of like, strange set of circumstances we're in. I think it's especially difficult in home because I sort of feel like if you, if you come up with some clever fashion idea or something that people buy is like an impulse purchase and it goes viral, it's very easy to jump from, oh my gosh, this crazy, you know, beauty product or this crazy fashion thing. Click to buy. Great, done. And you can make a lot of money that way. But if your viral product is like a chair that you haven't ever manufactured at scale, it's very difficult to turn like that buzzy social media energy into a viable business. And you know, it's funny because Allie Harrison, the woman you were talking about, like, ultimately I think she decided to sell plans on Etsy, which I think makes sense because, like, that's the sort of minimum viable product you can do. But she was talking about trying to make it into more of a thing. And local furniture companies were like, we can't make that and make money. Like, what are you talking about? So there really is, like, it's this fundamental disconnect of the product is more expensive. People don't always need a chair. They don't impulse buy a chair. That makes virality sort of more complicated for people in our line of work. Work.
- [22:56]
A
It's interesting to your point about it not always working out sometimes. And I had a conversation with somebody recently who looked like they were just killing it on social media. And I said, wow, things must be going so great for you. And they're actually not really, you know, but. But I certainly am able to put a great message out there. And so I think, as we often talk about, the reality is not always what, what's being shown. I mean, the other person that they talked about in the, in the article was this fel, Tony Pelissino, who many of us will remember lost his job at Sherwin Williams, when he was right, making all these viral videos of mixing paint and we were sort of hanging on it. It was a big Covid thing. People were tuning in on the regular. But then he went out and started his own paint company and it turned out, yeah, that was fun to mix all the paint colors and everything. But it's actually, there's a lot more that's going to have to go into really building a business. Business.
- [23:56]
B
Yeah. But I gotta shout out Tony. I mean, I think like what a lot of people would have done in his set of circumstances was like launch some sort of weird cryptocurrency. And you know, I don't know, the fact that he actually launched a product company and that it's still going, it's not at some billion dollar business, but it still is a thing I think is kind of impressive. Although. Yeah, you're right, it's not, you know, it's not as easy as kind of accidental.
- [24:17]
A
No, no, I think it's great that he went on and pursued. No, absolutely. And I, and I love that he did, but he'll be the first to tell you. Wow. Was. It's a lot more complicated than that. And that is, I guess the overarching message with all of this is that something can go viral, but then what?
- [24:35]
B
Yeah, exactly. It's kind of like it's better to go viral and have a lot of eyeballs on whatever you're doing, but it's a reminder that that's not all that there is to it. Just to kind of bring it to RH because why not? Dennis?
- [24:45]
A
Can't wait to see how we tie RH into this.
- [24:47]
B
Exactly. Well, I've always been very interested in this little pet subject of mine, which is why does RH know not post on Instagram? I think they might have an Instagram account, but they certainly don't post on it. They don't spend a lot on digital marketing. And I think Gary Friedman has just a general dislike of influencer marketing and maybe not the Internet altogether. But, you know, social media doesn't appear to really be his thing and I don't really feel like they pay a price for it or like it's hard to tell maybe. I don't know. What's your take on why RH doesn't do social media and should other companies follow suit? Is it silly to spend all this time on Vertical Video as we always tell people every week to get into?
- [25:25]
A
Well, you know, Fred, he's, he's spoken about it in the past on some earnings calls. And gotten quite worked up about it and what a ridiculous waste of money it was. And he talked about these salespeople showing up and wanting him to buy all these, these key marketing terms and words. And he was like, you know what? You want me to pay what for this? He love. He talked about how he loves the fact that RH is so talked about on social media and there are all these people posting about how they got proposed in one of the restaurants and that he says it's one of the most popular places in America to do a proposal in one of the stores. So he loves the buzz about it, but he's never fully believed. And we saw him talk about RH Media, which never really came to fruition in a meaningful way. At one point there was going to be this big launch and all these images and all this inspiration that was coming out of that that never got off the ground. And I think in part, part because he doesn't seem to really see the value in it versus the giant sourcebooks, versus the marketing tool that is these enormous stores and restaurants and everything else.
- [26:42]
B
Well, if it's so popular, why didn't Taylor and Travis get engaged in rh?
- [26:47]
A
Great point, great point.
- [26:49]
B
I mean, it's a big, complicated subject and I don't want to get too deep down the RH rabbit hole, but I will say I do think that on some level that's a nice position to be in. But I think for a lot of younger companies coming up, it is simply the place to see and be seen. So I don't know, maybe they're more of an edge case than a useful example. But it is always a peculiar thing that's always caught my attention. As many RH things do.
- [27:12]
A
I know they do, Fred. I know they do. All right, let's move on and talk about AI, shall we, Fred? In the latest issue of her substack newsletter, Kelly Werstler offered readers an in depth look look at how her firm has embraced AI tools. And for listeners who are fans of Kelly Wearstler, if you are not yet subscribing to the Substack newsletter, this might make you actually pay the subscription price because she shares a lot and turns out, Fred, she's using a lot of AI in her work. What do you think?
- [27:45]
B
Well, I think we should shout it. It's Wurstler World is the name of the substack. If you're not already a subscriber, as Dennis said, this is your cue to. To click to buy. I mean, I think it's really interesting on A couple different levels. I mean, one thing is that, like, Kelly Wurstler has always been somebody who's been a little bit ahead of the industry average. I mean, it's funny because a few months ago we were talking about how she was a little bit ahead of the curve by setting up a substack, which I think is true. And now here she is adopting AI and of course, you know, she's not the first interior designer to do it. But I do think that while a lot of designers still are a little bit skeptical and, you know, industry adoption is still around that, you know, 30% mark according to how is Kelly apparently does not do one thing without using AI. So it was very interesting on that level. What struck me is that what I hear mostly from designers is that they're really excited about using AI to write emails or do social media copy or write a letter or look at a contract. All the kind of administrative stuff that people don't want to do. Very few of them talk as much about using it for the creative design part of their job. This document is all about using it for the creation creative part of Kelly's job. I mean, there's a few other things, but that is hugely clearly part of what they do creatively is use these AI tools, which is a little bit of an outlier.
- [28:55]
A
Well, exactly, Fred. And what I think is so interesting is when we first started to talk about AI, all of the things that Kelly is talking about were the very things that people were the most frightened of. Oh, it's coming for our jobs because look what midjourney can do. Oh, it's coming for our job because look what all of these 3D rendering tools can do and create. And this was what AI was in the beginning. Then suddenly AI became. Oh no, wait, AI is the tractor that's going to help you on the farm. And it's going to be this great tool that's going to help you organize your back office and it's going to streamline your emails and your communications. And suddenly the non visual part of AI became the conversation. Kelly brings us back to how her office uses as a jumping off point, as a way to enhance, as a way to free them up from a lot of other rendering work, these visual tools. And they've made her presentations more effective and dynamic. She feels it seems to have made everyone feel more creative and as she says, rather than making them less human, it seems to make it feel more. More human, which I thought was interesting.
- [30:16]
B
I am always a little bit curious about these things because with one side of my brain, I'm like, yes, we got to embrace new technology. Let's get AI to record the Thursday show and I'll just drink my pina colada on the beach. And then the other half of my brain is, what are we losing? And is it really that good? And part of me just wonders a little bit, because so much of what these AI tools do is they make things faster. You want to generate a rendering, it does in one second. Second, the speed with which you get from one step to the other. I do. Part of me wonders if all that friction that we're talking about getting rid of, if there's actually value in that. I think about when I do a search with ChatGPT now to find out something about the industry, I'll just type it in and get an answer really quickly. And it is more efficient than looking at 10 Google links and reading a bunch of articles. But when you read a bunch of articles and you look around the Internet a little bit, you might see something that you didn't know or, or learn some fact or learn some additional shade of meaning. And I do think it will be a challenge for designers to sort of understand, okay, what saves me time that's wasted and what is taking away from friction that is creatively valuable?
- [31:20]
A
Well, I mean, I think it's interesting. You talk to a lot of artists and actually our guest this week, Rebecca Atwood, is spending more and more time in her studio trying to be creative in all sorts of different ways. She's painting and she's crafting and she's gardening and she's using her hands, to your point, and really getting immersed in the creative process in a very low tech way. And I think you're right that sometimes artists can feel that they're getting away a little bit from the process through all of these tools. And that's one of the concerns that a lot of people are raising about AI is are we suddenly going to be less creative in our thinking? Are we suddenly going to be relying on these tools in lots of ways that begin to replace part of how we approached problem solving in general. But I also think that tools evolve. And the miracle of Photoshop I think about from the early days of my career, I mean, I came up with a small advertising agency and heck, we were cutting out type and pasting it on a board and sending it out to be shot on a stat camera. And now none of that is necessary. So, I mean, I think these tools can really be transformative. But I certainly agree that we sometimes lose ourselves in the tools and some of the creativity can slip away.
- [33:01]
B
Yeah. I mean, I should just add onto that that nothing I said should be interpreted as going against Kelly Wearsler because very much, if it's working for her, I'm all for it.
- [33:12]
A
Yeah. Well, and I think it's taking her creativity to new places. So I can't wait to learn more. And truthfully, I can't wait to spend the weekend visiting a lot of these sites using tools that I haven't tried before because there were some, some that I haven't spent a lot of time with. So I look forward to that. Who knows what I'll be sending you, Fred?
- [33:30]
B
Your line of brutalist furniture.
- [33:32]
A
Exactly. Exactly. All right, that's it for the news. But there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including the latest showroom openings and advice from Sean Lowe on parting ways with a longtime employee. We'll be back in a minute. But first, a quick break. We're taking a quick break to remind you about Ernesta. Looking to transform your client's space, Try Ernesta's custom size rugs made to fit their unique measurements right down to the very inch. Allow them to sink their feet into the softest wools, or live carefree with a durable, easy to clean, family friendly rug. All ready to be delivered in as little as two to four weeks. Learn more about Ernesta's trade program@ernesta.com.
- [34:23]
C
That'S.
- [34:23]
A
Ernesta.Com BOH and we're back. I'm joined now by artist and designer Rebecca Atwood. Rebecca, welcome back.
- [34:38]
C
Hi, Dennis. I'm so excited to be here.
- [34:41]
A
Last time I saw you was at a design social pop up and you had just launched the mural collection that for listeners who sadly can't see, Rebecca's beautiful dining room is right behind you. How is that all going?
- [34:56]
C
Good. It's been really amazing working bigger and that's one of the things I've been able to do here in Charleston. And I have been painting outside more, which I really love. And we've had a great response to this mural, Hampton park, which is exciting.
- [35:12]
A
So you just mentioned what I really wanted to start with, which is the fact that many people might not know that several years ago you left Brooklyn and moved to Charleston, which seems to have had a huge impact on your work and your whole sort of creative mindset. So tell us about the big move, everything that led up to it and what's happened since.
- [35:38]
C
Well, I've been here for four years now, which is wild. I feel like I'm finally getting more settled here. I'm out of that disorienting phase where you don't know where you're driving and all that of, of that. And we are settled and it feels really good. But it was a time of a big change when we moved. You know, I was a new mother Covid having a business. I knew I needed change and so moving was really part of that. And I was really trying to get back to my art practice. And here in Charleston, I have a big studio. It's the size of my studio in our larger space. Space is what we were all in in Brooklyn. And it's been really great just having around that time. I had changed my schedule once we were past the move to have three creative days a week. So Monday through Wednesday I'm in the studio and I'm working on creative projects. Although in the past it's also included a book. So I'm trying to get more back to painting and it's just been a really big change overall, but I'm really happy and, and focused on art and design and creativity.
- [36:48]
A
Well, let's talk about your schedule because if you correspond email wise with Rebecca, you get a note reminding you that Thursdays and Fridays are my office days. And I will catch up with you then because as you just said, Monday through Wednesday, you're trying to lock yourself away and be creative, right?
- [37:08]
C
Yes. And doesn't happen that way every week, but it is the routine I'm trying to create. And it's also what I've really worked hard to make happen with the team and making sure everything's set up so that I can do that. But I find having a lot of time to dip into that, like deep work is so important because sometimes when you're making work, you don't like it at first or you're just thinking about things, thinking about color, thinking about fabric, feel, thinking about painting. I have these different stations set up where I'm oil painting in one area and then I have an area for design and I've got things on the walls and it's been really great. But I do need that time. I need that really focused. And that's the solitude of having deep time just to get that work done.
- [37:58]
A
How is that working out in terms of what the sales team needs from you? What the executive team?
- [38:04]
C
I mean, it's great. I mean, I have such a good team. I'm so fortunate and it's something that we built over, you know, the team over time. But I'm very fortunate. And everybody actually is very supportive of that time because they know what comes out of it. And, you know, we're a design business, so it's all about what the art is.
- [38:27]
A
It's great that they adjusted to the move. Right. Because I mean, you add the space in downtown and that was a place where people could come and see you there and that all changed. Tell me. I feel like we always have this where are you with multi line showroom conversation. The answer is nowhere.
- [38:49]
C
Nowhere. Yeah. So we do all of our own sales and we've been expanding our sales team.
- [38:54]
A
And does any part of you wish you were hanging in a multi line showroom somewhere in. In Texas or in some of these other hot markets that everyone talks about?
- [39:06]
C
I mean, I think multi line showrooms are beautiful and they have such an important role in industry. But for us, we've seen that for us to grow in a market, when we take over the sales ourself, we do grow in a way that we weren't with certain markets. And that's been true in every market that, that we've taken over. Do I think some points about having more physical space in that environment? Like, of course I do. And there's other things that are really appealing about that and just like the camaraderie and the other companies and all of that. I think that that's really nice. But we've tried it. We've tried it. And this is, I think, where. Where we're growing and what is working for us.
- [39:53]
A
I mean, part of me asks the question because I'm always. And I was having a conversation with the managing director at Arte recently. Right. And who's just invested in a big, beautiful space at the D and D building. And part of it was he's like, I'm in the wall covering business. I've got to be able to show people these installations. I've got to be able to show these big pieces. And I'm sure that people would love to be able to come and see the mural behind you and some of the big. Right. The big wall covering pieces. And that's always what I struggle with when I think of people not having a physical presence for that kind of product.
- [40:31]
C
Yeah. And I mean, I think one of the challenges too is that our assortment has grown a lot. You know, when we started, we were a small print line and we have so much product now. We have woven shears, embroideries, murals, wallpaper. And I do really think that an environment is so beautiful and so helpful for Designers. But interestingly, for wallpaper, we have always sold our wallpaper much better than showrooms have.
- [41:01]
A
Just you online, just you going through the process.
- [41:03]
C
Because we really spend a lot of time trying to get install photography and then also finding ways to visually represent what that looks like in recreation. Pete. And I think that is something designers really ask for and need. And you can't always get that on a small board if you can put it on a wall. But I think it really depends on how it's being displayed in the space and it depends on the showroom. But we have found that for wallpaper in particular, I think the online experience is really important.
- [41:37]
A
Yeah, no, no, no question. And listen, there are a lot of visual tools today and as you say, great installation photography goes a long way and all of that. It's interesting and I'm so curious. I talked to so many companies, big companies that want to open so many more retail stores today, which is so seemingly right counterintuitive to what we were imagining just a few years ago. Wayfair wants to open stores and they want their Paragould location to have a bunch of stores. And so lots of people are just thinking we need to show up physically in these markets, which is interesting and wouldn't have been again what we might have predicted.
- [42:15]
C
And I'm sure at some point we will need to figure that out as well. But I think there's a lot more room for growth for us even before that and within different markets. We'll treat it differently.
- [42:27]
A
So your next outside salesperson, what's the market you're most keen to have?
- [42:32]
C
Some of the best, I'm sure you can guess. Success.
- [42:36]
A
I might have mentioned them already. I might have, yes.
- [42:39]
C
It's. I mean, it's a great market for us and I'll be there in October and Chelsea's been visiting there, so she's really in charge of all of the west coast right now. And it's a big market, so we can't do it all with one person. But she's wonderful.
- [42:55]
A
Yeah. And you're right. And so you're going to be there because you're going to be at the Design Social and it seems like you show up in various markets at the Design Social and is that helpful? And does. Does that move the needle for you?
- [43:07]
C
You know, I think it's been a really good experience and we've met a lot of nice other brands there. I think that that's something I miss from our multiline days and a lot of people that we already knew but it's been nice as well for our team to have those connections and have other people that they can get in touch with and say, hey, is this working for you? What's happening here? And to meet designers in areas that we haven't in a while. But we've also done design socials where we just were connecting with existing customers, too.
- [43:41]
A
You mentioned earlier the fact that the product offering has expanded quite a bit and a lot more wovens have shown up. And so tell me what's bringing that on, and does that tell us anything about the marketplace or how you're thinking?
- [43:57]
C
Well, I love wovens. I think it's something that I've just been really passionate about. So we launched our first collection of those back in 2017. And, you know, at first we were only known for prints, so people thought of us for prints, and we had to tell them over and over again that we have wovens. But it's something that I really enjoy. And we just introduced our color collection in June. And for me, these are all things that have been brewing in my mind for a long time. I spent so much time thinking about color, and I really think color depends on material and how it reflects light. And so I was really excited to get to create some wovens that are more simple, and they're my take on solids, but they're not actually solid. They have all of these other colors in there. And I think about that is what I. When I'm out in the world and I look at the world, I see that. That, you know, you look at a field of grass, and it's not all one color. It's all of these different colors. And so I wanted to create fabrics that had that same feeling to bring into your home. So I just have a lot of things that I want to work on, and that's where it's always expanding, because I'm excited about things like that. I'm working on a collection of white on white embroideries that will be out next year. I'm. And that's partly because I have a home now. And I was thinking about what I wanted in my own space, how the light here is. I've been using different fabrics in different ways, like a woven as a curtain and seeing how I liked that heavier drape in that environment. But I'm also still interested in. Even though we live in such a warmer climate. In wool, for example, we have some developments in for that. And I. I think wool doesn't have to just be for colder climates. Wool's such A great fiber. So I think it's interesting thinking about in the heat, how sometimes I want a room to feel cold or shaded like that relief. And then other times you want it to feel light and airy. Having more space is just more room to play.
- [46:14]
A
Well, it seems to be making you very happy to have more space. Seems like the big takeaway for this conversation is I have a house, I have a lot more room. I'm much happier. I'm a better artist, I'm a better mother. I'm like, everything is just working in a much better way. You mentioned wool.
- [46:30]
C
Yes.
- [46:31]
A
And so I'm always trying to push wool as performance fabric, as you know. And I'm wondering what is the latest in the pressure to have. Have more performance fabrics? Is that still the talk of the market? Does everybody need to have that or.
- [46:50]
C
I mean, it sells really well?
- [46:52]
A
Of course it does.
- [46:52]
C
And I think living here, I do feel that there is a reason for performance fabrics. It is, you know, a very indoor, outdoor lifestyle. I'm not in the camp that I think everything in your home needs to be a performance fabric. But, you know, I'm sitting on our dining chairs and they are, are. We eat here all the time. My family, my 6 year old, we eat here. And it's not a performance fabric, but it is a pattern that can handle a spill. Performance fabrics don't mean that you can't just, you know, you still have to clean them and take care of them and. And they're still fabric. But I do think, I mean, I think about this a lot just from a sustainability perspective, and I don't have an answer for that. But we do look at trying to use more post consumer poly other, you know, things like that in our. Which you'll see in most of our performance fabrics have a high percentage of that fiber yarn in there. But yeah, I'm interested in other paths forward, and wool is definitely one of them.
- [47:55]
A
In addition to sort of speculating about peak performance fabric, the market also got an awful lot of digitally printed product coming at it all at once. And does that feel like it's reached some kind of. Are people looking in other directions? Is that part of what's moving you more towards wovens and other things?
- [48:17]
C
I mean, I think early on I did see it as a way to differentiate ourselves in terms of not being just a printed line and having for me, our prints look better with a woven. I wanted to kind of show what I was imagining, how I was imagining them being used. Used Digital printing is still a really important Part of our business. But for a lot of my artwork, digital print makes the most sense.
- [48:43]
A
You and I were talking just before we came on the air, so you've worked for a long time with business coach Holly Howard, who is someone that I always try and recommend when people are asking for a business coach. But it sounds like there was a little AI Workshop. Workshop that happened just recently. Tell me about that.
- [49:02]
C
Well, I had my whole team take this workshop because I think it's really important that we all have a certain baseline in language and understanding as we start to think about how we're implementing it. And we are. We're experimenting right now. I'd say we're in the play phase. Right? We're not set. Not. We're going to learn things. We're going to do things that maybe, you know, we're just trying things out. But Holly taught this class, and it was a Monday through Thursday. It was half day, and it was really about the framework, too. So she opened up with Luis Mojica speaking, and it was about how our bodies relate with AI. And I think that was a really important place because you and I have talked about there's the extremes. Like, it's terrible in the world's ending, and also on the other side, it's amazing, and it's going to fix everything. And. And I think that what we need now is to use our vision and our imagination for how we want this to look in the future. But it was really helpful for us all to take it so we can talk about how we're using it. And we're putting together that plan right now for how we'll be implementing it. But I highly recommend it. I think that it's important that all of of us in the creative industry try to be a part of that conversation so that we can be leaders and try to make positive choices.
- [50:32]
A
So what is your sense of how business is out there? I mean, we're at a time where the Federal Reserve is finally talking about lowering interest rates. Maybe the housing market's going to get a little unstuck. We'll see. Some designers seem like they're just constantly busy and nothing slows down. Right. And then other designers, you visit some of these markets and they say, oh, well, you know, we actually have slowed down and hasn't been as busy. What's your sense?
- [51:00]
C
Well, for us, we are having a great year in terms of we had a plan, and we are very close to that plan. May was a slower month than we were anticipating because April was alarming. I Think we can all agree. I know, I think we've all talked about this a lot, but we've seen that the summer has, you know, July we made up some of what we thought we'd make in May, and, and August has continued that trend. I think we went into the year with a really strong strategy. We are in our second year of our five year plan. I'm a planner. I like to think about things. It has made things a lot easier for our team to know what we're trying to do and what our goals are each year. So. So that's something I can also thank Holly for in terms of building that mindset over many years. But my team, we worked on that plan and I think we feel really good about the things that we needed to do for growth. So I think this year has been more challenging. I don't think it's just like we're all being buoyed along by some boom. But I do think that for a smaller business, growth is still like, very possible and we are, are seeing healthy growth. But I think there's that unease. Right. We just don't know what's going to happen. I think we were all kind of hoping some of that would be resolved by now, and it's not. But we just have to keep moving forward.
- [52:31]
A
Yeah, no, it's a challenging environment and it's soon going to be more challenging for the furniture industry.
- [52:38]
C
I saw that. Yes. Yes.
- [52:40]
A
We'll see what happens, happens there. So earlier you were referring to the fact that some of what you've been spending your creative time on is a new book called the Harmonious Home that's coming out soon. I happen to have a copy right here in my hand. Tell me how long you've been working on this and what you wanted this book to be about and to do for you and the community that you serve.
- [53:10]
C
I started working on it right around when we moved into our new house. And that was part of where this all came from. My editor had approached me about another book and I was in this moment probably right when she had emailed me. I was trying to pick paint colors for an entire house before I moved in, in a place I never had lived in, where the light was completely different. And I used to live in a one bedroom. You know, it's really hard even for a painter. Like, I am an artist. I think about color all day long. I live in that world of color. I'm like walking around in the street and I stop and write myself notes because of a color. And so I thought about the feeling I wanted for each space and for myself and my family before I picked colors. And it unlocked a lot for me and it became much easier. So, you know, we talked about. I was in this big moment of transition with moving and feeling disoriented and like art and nature were really where I ground myself. And that's really like where the book started. I wanted to be able to explain that concept to people better. It's a much more personal book than my other two in that they were really about these specific topics of color or pattern. And this one is about how you. It's about emotion, truly. And it also has my home in it, which is very vulnerable, I was gonna say.
- [54:41]
A
I mean, you can't get much more personal than that, than letting people in. And very sweetly you say, you know, here it is now. And then you write, you know, here's what I'm hoping to do eventually.
- [54:53]
C
Yeah, I think that's important. I mean, I'm not an interior designer. I am so grateful to work with such amazing designers. And it was really fun to, to ask people for their advice. Very lucky that I could do that. You know, I remember that Kevin Isbell sent in his recommendations on window treatments and I was like, oh, that's a really good idea. And I texted the woman who was sewing all of our curtains and I was like, can you actually make those how many? Ever many inches taller so that it's 3/4 instead of at the half. So while the curtains, the cafe curtains in our bathroom upstairs are right in the middle, the ones downstairs are that three quarter height, which it does look a lot better.
- [55:36]
A
Shout out to Kevin Isbel for that.
- [55:38]
C
But there are so many designers that gave really wonderful tips in the book as well. And then nothing in our homes is ever finished. They're never finished. And so I thought about that too, like sharing, talking about layering over time. I think that there is a lot in there for different people. And I hope that whether it's a homeowner or a designer, that they will find things that are interesting and inspiring and hopefully an approach just in terms of that emotional resonance.
- [56:09]
A
You've got a much smaller publication that also comes out that is Color Poems, Haikus, if you will, about color. Tell me what that's about for you.
- [56:23]
C
Well, I think I mentioned our color collection. And for me, that really started with these notes that I write to myself when I'm walking around and I might notice something. I have all these notes they just keep, you know, I try to transfer them sometimes into Notebooks and the colors are so important and they feel. They bring such joy to my day. And I wanted to do something that really spoke to that. Haikus are traditionally about nature, and I like that they have a very short format. I often think that it's how we think. We don't think in these beautiful long sentences. We think in these short little. At least I do words and ideas. And So I wrote 20 poems, I believe, for each of our. Each of our woven fabrics. That is in bramble and park. Those are our two woven fabrics. And I wrote a poem for each of the colors that we have. It was really fun to do it and not in my normal wheelhouse, just in that putting something out there like poetry is also more vulnerable. So it's different. I hope people like it.
- [57:41]
A
Well, again, I mean, as you say, it's a wonderfully personal. And again, I can't help but think all of this is related to you moving to Charleston. Right. And just how it's opened you up creatively in so many ways, it seems.
- [57:59]
C
Yeah.
- [57:59]
A
You mentioned earlier being in the second year of a five year plan. Is there some big goal in the coming years for you? Is there something that's out there that you're feeling you haven't done. You've done some big retail partnerships in the past. You've done other things like that. What's on the. What's on the list?
- [58:23]
C
Well, our five year plan is really about focusing on what we are already doing with wallpaper and fabric because I think there's so much that we can still be doing. But I have been really dreaming about what I want to do beyond that and I would do. You know, making more time for my fine art practice is really important to me. I am planning to add, have a show next year, which is very exciting.
- [58:49]
A
Oh.
- [58:49]
C
But I also want to work on some bigger experiences, for lack of a better word, in terms of, you know, I. I was on Cape Cod this summer for a week and I went back to this theater called the Cape Cinema. There is a beautiful mural that encompasses the whole ceiling and it's arched. And I thought, oh my gosh, like, this is such an incredible experience that anybody can go and visit and sit in. I think some things that are in public spaces and I mean, this might be. Take my whole life to achieve these things, but I'd love to do something with a library or something that's more in that public world because I am so focused a lot of time on these small, intimate home experiences and which is very like, true to me, I like to be home. I like to be quiet. I like to read. I like to garden. I like. And which. That's a whole other thing, Dennis. I'm gardening. I, you know, hadn't done that when I lived in New York. But I am thinking just expansively about what the future could hold and I would like to do some things like that. So I don't know what that, you know, looks like, but.
- [60:04]
A
And you're going to be putting up an art show in the coming year, so where would we.
- [60:10]
C
I know. Well, there's a really wonderful woman here, Ann, and she has this gallery called the George Gallery, and she asked me if I would be open to doing a show, and so I said yes. So hopefully it's the beginning of kind of that side of things, growing more and sharing. But I see all of this so visually in my head. And these paintings, they live here and I've got to get them down on canvas and paper. And I'm excited to have a reason to share them.
- [60:42]
A
Yeah. Well, it sounds like, again, it sounds like the artist side of you is really coming out in this new home and in this new life that you've created for yourself. So congratulations on the book. I'm eager for people to see it. It's beautiful. And congratulations on everything, everything that's going on for you. I'm glad to hear you're doing so well.
- [61:03]
C
Thanks so much, Dennis.
- [61:09]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [61:18]
B
Listeners who made it all the way, welcome. Thank you for listening to my plug at the beginning of the show. You're one of the few in the proud. What caught my this week was Studio Per Diem. And if you remember what that is, that is a site that was founded by Aaron Burke, the founder of Burke Decor, a site that we've talked about a lot on this show. Studio Per Diem is kind of her new e commerce site. And I was under the impression that it was going to be kind of a quick flash in the pan, but apparently I'm getting ads for it recently. So that indicates to me clearly that it's working. And it's just kind of crazy because as we've talked about, Burke Decor was a site that lost a lot of customers and vendors high and dry, and it's being sued by the Ohio attorney general, among other people. And she sort of quietly started this new site and it appears to be at least doing well enough to put ads behind it. So I don't know what to take away from that, but it certainly caught my eye. I'm wondering what's going to happen with this one.
- [62:09]
A
Fred's not going to let it get away. Okay.
- [62:11]
B
So it just shows you how little, shows you how little power we have in the corrupt mainstream media. I can't, can't even get people not to go down that rabbit hole. Anyway, that caught my eye. Another thing that caught my eye is we've talked recently about how these sort of early HGTV shows, among them decorating scents. You know, one from, I think the 90s went viral recently. Largely people kind of making fun of them and, you know, in a frankly hilarious way. But what it's, you know, of course there's someone who was actually hosting this show back in the day, and for her substack schmuck, Leonora Epstein went and talked to this person who was the host of Decorating Sense. It was a really good interview, actually. Like, it was very like, clearly this person was a little like hurt by all this, you know, mocking of this 90s decor, which is understandable. I mean, I think, you know, she found a way to kind of find it funny and, you know, I think to have a sense of perspective on it. But it was really interesting interview and just sort of a reminder that for every funny thing on the Internet we all, we all laugh at, there's a real person, person behind it. I still think that show is a little bit goofy, frankly, but, but I think if you read the interview, you'll come away with a lot more appreciation for it.
- [63:15]
A
Yeah, no, absolutely. I'm, I'm so glad that you mentioned that.
- [63:18]
B
What caught your eye this week?
- [63:19]
A
A couple of things caught my eye. One, we were just talking about RH earlier and on the, on the last earnings call, we heard that RH Paris was coming up. And sure enough, all of our French listeners prepare to be excited. Excited because the Champs Elysees is, is going to have a brand new RH location come September 5th. Apparently there's, there's quite a moving video on the site saying, we love you Paris, we love you France, we love you French culture. And we've learned so much from you and, and we've, we've turned that into our beautiful new store. So I'm, I'm eager to get some reports on the ground from people and eager to get over there to Paris and, and visit soon.
- [64:01]
B
I wonder how many White deer they have on the grounds of they're gonna.
- [64:06]
A
Have a tough time topping that RH England party that you and I were at, Fred. But, but looking forward to that. Also, I wanted to share a little bit of Charles Cohen news. So not, not design building related but, but Charles Cohen was reported to have said, listen, I need some time to, to sell some properties to raise some money so that I can pay off that, that, that fortress loan. And apparently he, he has actually sold a building to, to Vernado. The Real Deal is reporting that at one point this building, 623 fifth was valued at 712 million. Sadly, he's only selling it for 218 million. So it's quite a haircut from what it once might have been been. But it does seem as though he is, is moving along as he suggested he needed to in, in selling some properties to hopefully raise some cash. And, and perhaps he will, he will find a way to, to repay those debts. And, and, and maybe the D and D building won't have a new owner. Who's, who can say? But, but interesting interesting to see Charles Cohen news popping up. There's some suggestion that his, that his own corporate headquarters has also lost value quite a bit. But we'll see what happens. But always want to keep people up to date on the Charles Cohen news. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at podcast at businessofhome. Com. This episode was produced by Fred Nikolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. We'll be off on Monday for the Labor Day holiday, so enjoy the waning days of summer. And we'll be back with you next Thursday.