The Thursday Show: Is your client getting a second opinion from ChatGPT? Plus: Publicist-turned-gallerist Michael McGraw on his new venture

Summary

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Business of Home Podcast – The Thursday Show

Episode Date: February 5, 2026

Host: Dennis Scully

Guests: Fred Nicholaus (BOH Executive Editor), Michael McGraw (Publicist-turned-Gallerist)

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Episode Overview

This week's Thursday Show dives deep into the latest developments shaping the interior design industry, with a lively discussion between host Dennis Scully and executive editor Fred Nicholaus. Topics include significant changes in trade tariffs, the ongoing evolution of sourcing and pricing platforms, the ripple effects of major retail bankruptcies, the growing influence of AI (ChatGPT) on client-designer dynamics, and the rise of social media-savvy “loud luxury” among the 1%. In the latter half, Dennis sits down with veteran publicist Michael McGraw to discuss his career shift into launching his own collectible design gallery.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. A Quick Catch-Up and Previous Highlights (00:36–04:06)

• Snowbound Inspiration: Fred jokes about how winter storms could spark new design business by making people sick of their sofas.
  “Maybe now’s the time to call up your clients and say, are you sick of your sofa?” — Fred (00:57)
• The hosts reflect on the Monday episode with Madeline Stewart, her Hollywood connections, and the enduring humor and depth in her design work.

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2. Tariffs on Indian Imports – Relief for the Rug & Textile Sector (06:01–07:47)

• After a year of punitive 50% tariffs, the U.S. and India have reached a deal to lower these to 18%, providing huge relief to the design industry (especially rug and textile importers).
  “A sigh of relief is heard across the rug industry... 18% is certainly better than 50.” — Fred (06:31)
• Fred notes, “If you’d said 18% a couple of years ago, everyone would've lost their mind, but compared to 50% it’s a relief.” (07:23)

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3. Activist Investor Drama at Cherish and Live Auctioneers (07:47–08:39)

• Fitz Walter Capital, a major shareholder, withdrew its hostile takeover bid.
  “After 12 rejections, maybe we don’t want you to take over our firm.” — Dennis (07:47)
• Despite the saga’s impact on stock value, "it’s a fascinating story" for designers who rely on these platforms.

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4. Tech Solution Spotlight: The ‘Anywhere’ Directory for Designers (08:39–13:56)

• 'Anywhere', a new startup by Ann Corgan and Laura Nguyen, aims to centralize product/pricing info across brands for designers.
  “Instead of chasing around the Internet... you can just go to the site and find it all in one place.” — Fred (10:28)
• Not transactional for now, emphasizing practicality over trying to recreate e-commerce.
• The challenge: “It’s hard to build them no matter what... the industry can be sort of like herding cats.” — Fred (10:28)
• The need for critical mass and up-to-date data is highlighted; Dennis expresses hope but realism about the heavy lift.

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5. The Saks Bankruptcy—Ripple Effects and Retail’s Struggles (14:23–18:35)

• Saks’ bankruptcy leaves fashion and some home brands owed major sums (Chanel: $136 million).
  “It’s going to be textbook — what not to do.” — Dennis (14:48)
• Some home brands/suppliers are affected via e-commerce; designers like Jonathan Adler are among those dealing with fallout.
• Dual concern: When either a vendor (e.g. Mitchell Gold) or a retailer fails, both designers and manufacturers suffer.
• The loss of physical retail is “not good for any industry” — especially for product discovery and brand building.

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6. Discussion: Are Department Stores Doomed? (18:35–19:35)

• Dennis laments poor management and the sidelining of great merchant culture:
  “Great department stores need to be celebrated and run by great merchants... not just people who want to sell all the underlying real estate.” (18:44)
• Notes Bon Marché in Paris as an example that the model can work if well executed.

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7. The Rise of ChatGPT in Client-Designer Interactions (20:22–26:19)

• Increasingly, clients are “getting a second opinion from ChatGPT” on everything from paint colors to layout decisions—even when working with top designers such as Ray Booth and Andre Mellone.
  • “The client would go, ChatGPT, the designer says 33. Like a parrot on her shoulder.” — Fred (21:15)
• Mixed outcomes: Sometimes AI boosts the designer’s case (e.g., ChatGPT agrees with their budget); other times it affirms client preconceptions regardless of expertise.
• Key Insight: “People come to see chatbots... as a source of truth... but really, they’re just agreeing with you.” — Fred (23:58)
• Both agree this is the start of AI’s impact: “We’re just at the tip of the iceberg.” — Dennis (25:52)

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8. Cultural Shifts: Loud Luxury and the 1% on Social Media (26:19–31:08)

• Discussion of “loud luxury” as wealthy individuals increasingly flaunt their lifestyles on social media—contrasting the once-private ethos.
• Designers remain divided: Private clients still rarely allow their homes to be published, yet there is “much more willingness somehow” to showcase extravagant living. “If more people are willing to show it off, perhaps it'll be great for designers and vendors and more of the word will get out there.” — Dennis (31:05)
• Dennis wryly notes how this trend chafes against his “WASPy heart.” (31:08)

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9. Interview: Michael McGraw’s New Gallery Adventure – DYNAMICS OF COLLECTIBLE DESIGN (32:57–59:22)

Michael’s Career Journey (33:08–35:05)

• Started in PR at PETA running celebrity campaigns (“rather go naked than wear fur”).
• Shifted to LaForce, gained design clients, founded McGraw PR in 2011.
• “From the very beginning, 100% design [focus].” — Michael (35:14)
• His husband, David Duncan’s antique business, inspired him to combine editorial savvy with the business acumen needed for a gallery.

Launching Dernier Cri Gallery (40:34–42:40)

• Gallery name: Dernier Cri (“the latest thing” in French).
• First show, “Night Shift,” challenged diverse artists to create works exclusively in black, creating a unified experience from disparate media.
• “I have always loved the color black... limiting the palette to a single hue would be a way to unify.” — Michael (40:53)

Navigating Logistics & Tariffs (43:00–45:55)

• Gallery born during Covid reflections: “The future is now, and not getting any younger. What are you waiting for?” — Michael (43:00)
• Discusses the pain of tariffs: Tariffs are charged upon import of unsold art as well, regardless of whether it sells or is returned abroad.
• “The tariffs have been so damaging to the American design world... but we’re learning to deal with it.” — Michael (44:37)

Curatorial Philosophy & Collectible Design (46:50–51:09)

• McGraw sees himself as “a designer’s gallerist,” focused on unique pieces that feel like they were created “for no one other than that homeowner.”
• Addresses the term “collectible design”: Despite some industry pushback, feels it’s shorthand that resonates globally.
  • “Collectible design kind of goes hand-in-hand with functional art... pieces that defy a certain time period, are... uniquely artistic, and hopefully have some permanence.” — Michael (48:17)
• Gallery pieces are available as-is but also as templates for “designer-artist collaboration” (commissions, customizations).

The Changing Landscape of PR & Media (52:49–58:58)

• Fewer print opportunities; the distinction between digital and print is eroding: “You have been published by that media property.”
• Social media and video is crucial for reach and engagement—even if many designers are camera shy.
  • “The algorithms prefer people talking, they prefer videos... that's the content that will perform the most.” — Michael (55:47)
• TikTok trends come and go, but Instagram remains pivotal. McGraw admits even he needs to take his own advice to get in front of the camera.

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10. End-of-Show Industry Highlights (59:29–62:48)

• Tariffs Legal Maneuvering: Some home companies now pre-emptively suing the US government for potential tariff refunds; McGee & Co. among them.
• Firm Leadership Transitions: Veere Grenney elevates Natasha Greg as partner, signaling thoughtful succession planning.
• Mitchell Gold’s “Third Act”: Industry veteran moves into consulting post-Surya, offering lessons from a storied career.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Maybe now’s the time to call up your clients and say, are you sick of your sofa?” — Fred (00:57)
• “A sigh of relief is heard across the rug industry... 18% is certainly better than 50.” — Fred (06:31)
• “If you’d said 18% a couple of years ago, everyone would've lost their mind, but compared to 50% it’s a relief.” — Fred (07:23)
• “Great department stores need to be celebrated and run by great merchants... not just people who want to sell all the underlying real estate.” — Dennis (18:44)
• “The client would go, ChatGPT, the designer says 33. Like a parrot on her shoulder.” — Fred (21:15)
• “People come to see chatbots... as a source of truth... but really, they’re just agreeing with you.” — Fred (23:58)
• “If more people are willing to show it off, perhaps it'll be great for designers and vendors and more of the word will get out there.” — Dennis (31:05)
• “From the very beginning, 100% design [focus].” — Michael (35:14)
• “The tariffs have been so damaging to the American design world... but we’re learning to deal with it.” — Michael (44:37)
• “Collectible design kind of goes hand-in-hand with functional art... pieces that defy a certain time period, are... uniquely artistic, and hopefully have some permanence.” — Michael (48:17)
• “The algorithms prefer people talking, they prefer videos... that's the content that will perform the most.” — Michael (55:47)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:36–04:06 – Quick catch-up, Madeline Stewart episode recap
• 06:01–07:47 – India tariffs news
• 07:47–08:39 – Cherish/Live Auctioneers takeover saga ends
• 08:39–13:56 – Sourcing & pricing tech: the ‘Anywhere’ platform
• 14:23–18:35 – Saks bankruptcy & retail consolidation discussion
• 20:22–26:19 – ChatGPT’s rise in client-designer relationships
• 26:19–31:08 – Loud luxury and wealth on social media
• 32:57–59:22 – Michael McGraw interview: career, gallery, collectible design, and PR/marketing shifts
• 59:29–62:48 – Industry highlights and closing thoughts

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Tone & Language

The conversation was lively and candid, mixing industry in-jokes ("I'll give you my Venmo for a quick cut") with thoughtful analysis and a sense of camaraderie. Dennis and Fred pepper the show with both optimism (for tech and design’s adaptability) and realism about the industry’s challenges. Michael McGraw brings both humility about his transition (“The future is now, and not getting any younger...”) and an eye for the creative and practical intersections between design and business.

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Summary Takeaways

• Major tariff relief for design imports from India will slowly ease price pressures.
• New platforms like ‘Anywhere’ are trying to finally tame the chaos of sourcing and pricing—but face the perennial challenge of getting enough brands onboard.
• The bankruptcy of Saks (and impact on other physical retail) underscores the risks for both manufacturers and designers, as well as the continued value of in-person retail experience.
• AI tools like ChatGPT are changing the client-designer power dynamic, for better and worse.
• Public displays of wealth are becoming more acceptable—even advantageous—for designers seeking more visibility for their work.
• Michael McGraw’s new gallery, Dernier Cri, embodies a curator’s vision honed by years in PR, focusing on unique, collectible pieces and facilitating designer-artist collaborations.
• In PR and marketing, adaptability is key: social media and video engagement is now unavoidable—as is the need for real connections versus just beautiful content.

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If you missed the episode, this summary provides all the insight, laughs, and practical takeaways from the rapidly evolving world of interior design and its business.

Transcript

[A]

This is Business of Home.

[B]

I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday show.

[A]

Later on, I'll be speaking with publicist Michael McGraw about his new collectible design gallery. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including a big tariff development, a platform that aims to make purchasing easier for designers, and the rise.

[B]

Of the 1% celebrity.

[A]

To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Home's executive editor, Fred Nicholas. Hi, Fred.

[C]

Hi, Dennis. How's it going? Great.

[A]

How you doing?

[C]

I'm surviving. You know, there's that darn snow. We had it.

[A]

I can't help but notice.

[C]

Yes, we had it. We loved it for 24 hours, and now it just won't leave.

[A]

It's the gentleman who came to dinner, and I just. I feel the same way. Here in the suburbs, it is piled high. I'm not gonna lie.

[C]

I have a quick hot take for designers out there. You know how during COVID everyone was stuck at home and that was like a boon for the home. I feel like everyone's been stuck at home for the past week, at least in the Northeast. Maybe now's the time to call up your clients and say, are you sick of your sofa? Because you probably been. I've been spending a lot of time on mine, so maybe. Maybe we'll see a bump in Q1 based on this snowstorm. What do you think?

[A]

Maybe that will finally turn sofa sales around. Fred, I like where you're going with this because I think we were feeling like there. There weren't enough years left in the cycle, but maybe this. Maybe this does it. Covered all over again. I like it.

[C]

Yeah. Well, anyway, if anyone gets any jobs off that, I'll give you my Venmo for a quick cut.

[A]

Credit to you.

[C]

Let's look back quickly on Monday's episode, A Conversation with Madeline Stewart. Really, really fun conversation with Madeline Stewart.

[A]

A really fun conversation with Madeline Stewart. Starting with the fact that Madeline Stewart is responsible for one of my favorite movies of all times, Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory actually being made.

[D]

Yes. Her.

[A]

Her father made the movie and she got to be in it for a hot second, so I'm very jealous of her for that. And then went on to become a big part of the Hollywood design scene, working with a lot of up and coming writers and actors, and has developed an incredible firm and an incredible body of work over the years. She's endlessly fun to talk to, wildly opinionated, and actually had a lot of good advice for people. So there's a lot in that episode. What did you think?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I love the Willy Wonka detail. I also loved how her very first client was the screenwriter for Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. So many design careers have been launched by Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. Yeah, I mean, just, she's so fun. She's another designer who needs a podcast. I think it's only a matter of time before she gets into that game. But very charming, lots of stories, great advice, very hot takes her design Crimes is a series that I think we all, we all need to hear more about. And I just think she's just one of these people who. Her projects are just so layered. She really takes the research part of it very seriously. I think a lot of designers do that, but I think Madeline Stewart is someone who just takes it to the next level. And, you know, it's very inspiring how, you know, seriously she takes her work, but how funny she is as a person. So that's a, that's a winning combination for me.

[A]

No, I agree. And Madeline was, was kind enough during COVID to do an online dialogues on design with me and I got to show a bunch. And it's one of the times that I, that I wish the podcast had a video component to it because to see the level of work that she does is really quite impressive and self trained as she is, which is also pretty remarkable. So I hope that people will enjoy the show. I know that a lot of people already have because I've gotten many a fun note, including many people watching old movies that they hadn't heard of or seen.

[C]

There's. There are some really good old movie recommendations. I was. Maybe we should edit that out, Dennis. Nope. Dennis was keeping those old movies in there. And I'm glad we did.

[A]

Absolutely glad we did.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

No, I am too. And I'm glad that people are getting exposed to My Man Godfrey if nothing else. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news.

[B]

This podcast is sponsored by laloy. Behind every laloy rug is a web of people woven together. What began as a small family business in Dallas, Texas in 2004 has grown to a family of over 750 employees who help bring their rugs, pillows, and wall art to life. Their work is inspired by the quiet conviction that things made well have the power to provide comfort for generations. Learn [e-mail] that's L O L O I rugs.com and follow laloirugs on Instagram and TikTok. This podcast is proudly sponsored by Morrison Co. Step into a story one hundred and sixty four years in the making, Morris and Co has collaborated with the Huntington in California to unveil a remarkable new collection featuring 26 brand new wallpaper and fabric designs created from unfinished sketches by William Morris and his contemporaries. Using original incomplete artwork that's been tucked away for more than a century, the Morris and co design team faithfully finished these historic sketches, transforming them into designs crafted for today, but deeply rooted in Morris creative vision. Discover this brand new chapter in Morris and co's story on wmmorrisonco.com.

[A]

And we're back. First up, Fred, we're going to get an update on some stories we've been talking about recently.

[C]

Yeah, just gonna close the loop on a few news items. Hate to start here, but we have to Tariffs. President Trump announced on Monday that the US had reached a trade deal with India and would be lowering tariffs from 50 to 18%. This is kind of a big deal. I know we don't wanna talk about tariffs more than we have to, but this is a big one.

[A]

We're gonna dip our toe in because we know the rug industry is rejoicing right after that, after that big article in the New York Times about the Lalois, sigh of relief is heard.

[C]

Yes, I think the tariffs started rolling out last year. I think a lot of people were thinking, oh, China, not a big deal. I don't source a lot of my stuff from China, but when the 50% tariffs dropped on India, I think the design industry really found out in a big way how much stuff. I mean, rugs, textiles, even some furniture comes from India. And 50% is a lot. I mean, it's been more to import from India than it has been from China for most of the second half of the year. So a lot of people were thinking this was going to happen sooner. It's finally happened. You know, will we see prices immediately drop next week? I doubt it. But this will, I think at least put a cap on, you know, the prices that have been raising on stuff coming out of India. So a lot of sighs of relief being breathed over this particular drop. Although ironically enough, if a couple years you'd said 18% on India, everyone would have lost their mind. But 18% is certainly better than 50. Another news story we talked about last week was we talked about how Cherish might be getting, or Cherish his parent company rather might be getting taken over by this activist investor. It was a big financial hullabaloo. Well, it's not going to happen at the last minute, Fitz Walter Capital, this big shareholder, I guess they blinked and they announced, we're not going to try and take over the owner of Cherish and Live Auctioneers. So it's kind of as you were. Maybe we should have seen that one coming.

[A]

Well, maybe after 12 rejections. Right. Anyone would have gotten the hint that, that maybe we don't want you to. To take over our firm. But it's, but it's an interesting story and it was one that was fun to follow. I don't know how it plays out in the future. I'd be surprised if they go away forever, but we'll see.

[C]

Thirteen time lucky, maybe. Yeah. It's a weird story, right, because it's your biggest shareholder trying to take over the company. And in the process of walking away from this deal, now the stock is way down, so maybe they kind of shot themselves in the foot. Certainly we'll be following what's going on with Cherish and Live Auctioneers in the weeks ahead. I really want to get the CEO of that company to talk about it because, of course, designers are, you know, use both Cherish and Live Auctioneers a lot. So I bet he has some interesting things to say about this. Whether he can say them on the record, I don't know. But. But it's a. It's a fascinating story. So just wanted to keep everyone abreast on. On that one.

[A]

We're going to move on and talk about a new startup. Last week, boh's Caroline Burke wrote about Anywhere, an online directory that looks to solve the industry's many pricing dilemmas. And yes, there, there are many. Fred.

[C]

I've never, I've never heard of that pricing dilemma in the design industry. Yeah, this is fascinating one, and I think looks to address a problem that will be extremely familiar to most interior designers. It's, you know, you get all your sourcing together. The client approved the fabric. You know, you go back to the brand and it turns out they've discontinued the line or it's not in stock, or the pricing has changed, and you have to send 15 emails figuring out who the right rep is. There's just this constant battle, I think, in the industry of designers trying to get all the information they need to put a project together because it's so dispersed, it's so fragmented. You know, there's a million different websites, a million different brands. Everyone does things a little bit differently, and it's a constant problem. I mean, people have been talking about this with me for, I don't know about A decade. So I understand there's an opportunity here and it's the problem anywhere is trying to solve.

[A]

Yeah. Which I think is really interesting. And trying to solve it from the designer's perspective. And I mean, the point about even trying to figure out sometimes where a line is repped or do they have an outside rep, do they have a showroom? Even on many of these websites, as I have spent a great deal of time on, it's often hard to even get that information. You're looking at this giant map of the country, it doesn't always tell you the specifics, hard to zoom in on.

[C]

The little lines and yeah, yeah, it's.

[A]

Harder to navigate than you would think.

[C]

So please input your latitude and longitude if you want this sample.

[A]

Exactly. So I do think that this is a welcome site and I think there will be challenges gathering all of this information for sure, but I can certainly understand the need.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

It's a Seattle based designer named Ann Corgan and her co founder Laura Nguyen, they put together this site and basically, basically what it is is it's a directory. So what they have, I think they have 20 brands that they're launching with and some reps in showrooms as well. And I think the basic idea is that brands will dump all of their product information, like pricing, all the SKUs that they have available, the correct rep to reach out to. The idea is instead of chasing around the Internet to get all this information, you can just go to the site and find it all in one place and access it easily. It's not transactional, so you're not clicking to buy fabric or clicking to get a sample, but it's just a helpful place to kind of have all the information in one place. So that's the idea. As you mentioned, there are tons of challenges here. I mean, tech startups are expensive and it's hard to build them no matter what. Technology is tricky, that's one thing. I also think this industry can be sort of like herding cats. I think people have tried versions of this before and every manufacturer has their information formatted in a different way. Manufacturers are paying for this, so not all of them are going to want to do it. So they certainly have their work cut out for them in terms of, of getting all the manufacturers on board, because that's what's going to make this useful for designers. Right. It has to have a critical mass of brands and manufacturers, otherwise it's only so useful as a directory. What do you think exactly?

[A]

I think that's such an important point and I think it's one of the challenges that sites like this in the past have struggled with, is getting to that critical mass, convincing enough companies that it's worth their while to be on this platform, and then, as you say, even when they agree to be on it, then getting all of their data and bringing it onto the site, it's challenging. I was joking before we came on air that I know that Ann is based in Seattle and so they always have a leg up on the software side of things, to be sure, but it's a lot to bring together. That said, it seems as if the community is eager for something like this to happen. And so I'm hopeful that it can be a useful tool. But it is not an easy road to go down. And we've spoken to so many companies in the past now, again, to your earlier point, who tried to build a platform where perhaps transactions could be conducted. And that is not the aim or the goal, at least for the moment with this site. So perhaps that challenge at least can be eliminated.

[C]

Yeah, maybe by sort of keeping the expectation that this is just a directory, they'll find more success. Because I think the problem so many people have bumped up into is that it's like building the transaction layer is just. It's almost impossible on top of an already complicated problem. You're trying to make it so that people can, you know, buy from a showroom who's buying from a manufacturer who's specifying a custom product. It's just endlessly complicated. So maybe if this is just collecting SKUs, just collecting pricing and trade rep information, they can sort of nail that and win that way. But, you know, this is obviously a need in the industry. You know, so much of the Internet is so convenient, it's so easy to find, you know, any random product that you want. Whereas the design industry, because, you know, pricing is kind of hidden behind a wall and because brands each do things their own way, and because pricing is variable, it's just hard to aggregate that information in a way that work for both designers and manufacturers. But there is a need for it. So I applaud that they're trying. And I'm really interested to hear directly from Anne. I think we're going to try and book her on the show. She has her work cut out for her, but this is a real industry problem, so I wish her luck in solving it.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And so often with startups, the issue is what are the pain points? And there were clearly numerous pain points that Ann is trying to address. I'm Looking forward to talking to her. I met her briefly in Paris at a Castel event, actually, and I see Castel as one of the brands on the site. So I'm, I'm eager to discuss more of the details with her, hopefully in the coming weeks. In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about the fallout from Sex Fred.

[C]

Three weeks ago, the department store chain filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, leaving not only fashion brands, but a number of home companies in the lurch. Our editor here, Aiden Taylor, wrote a great story about this for Business of Home. You can check it out there. But in the meantime, should we just rubberneck at some of these numbers? I mean, chanel is owed $136 million in this bankruptcy. It's gargantuan.

[A]

Yeah, the numbers are stunning. And the details of this bankruptcy and everything that went on, it's going to be textbook and taught in schools going forward of what not to do.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I think probably there was just a collective assumption that it sacks it's going to be okay. And so all these luxury brands like LV and Kering, all these massive names just kept floating the money and now they're all caught up in bankruptcy and it's not going to. I'm sure they'll get paid back some money, but 136 million is a lot of money. Now, as Aidan reported in this story, this is mostly a bankruptcy that's affecting fashion vendors who sold through Saks. But they did have some home brands listed, mostly through their E Commerce. And Aiden spoke to a few of them. Some of them were on the record, some of them are off the record. I don't think any brands in our world were betting the farm on selling through Saks. This is not the biggest hole in their balance sheet, but there were companies who were caught up in this. I know Jonathan Adler sells through Saks and Neiman Marcus, and so I'm guessing that they're having to deal with some of the fallout here. So while this is primarily a fashion thing, there is a little bit of a fallout falling in our neck of the woods as well.

[A]

Well, and we mustn't forget that Bergdorf is caught up in this as well. And Bergdorf has been leaning into home in a big way. In fact, in fact, the aforementioned Cherish had done a big store in store there and a big display. And so a lot of brands have been showing up there in a meaningful way.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, I think I just wanted to sort of pause for a moment and talk about in the past we've talked about, like when a vendor goes bankrupt, like Mitchell Gold and Bob Williams, for example, all the designers who have orders in with them get screwed over by the bankruptcy and it's awful. And so many people, you know, end up, you know, catching, you know, catching a hit from it and it's terrible. But, you know, the flip side of that is that when a retailer or department store goes bankrupt, the same vendors take a huge hit. You know, we've talked, it seems like, you know, regularly on this show about how all these furniture stores around the country are going bankrupt. And sometimes it's easy to sort of breeze over that as like, okay, well, you know, there's 75 year old stores going away. That's too bad. So sad. But, you know, all of the brands that show at High Point usually end up losing money when that happens. And I do think that it's just another sign of the challenge for these manufacturers is that while they're doing a great business with designers and designers are great customers, their more traditional channels, like department stores or more to the point, furniture stores, are all struggling deeply. So they may be winning in one area, but there's a lot of strife and fallout in other areas. And I think, like we said, Saks is not going to send any home company bankrupt, but it's just part of a bigger picture.

[A]

I agree. And it also continues to send this message and I don't think think it's a message that we want to send that physical retail is not important and that, oh, don't worry about it because it can all go online if all these places go away. And I don't think that that's the message that the industry wants to have sent at all. And truthfully, and you mentioned a lot of these High Point companies, when you talk to a lot of the high point CEOs, they're quite concerned about where is my product going to be seen? Where are people going to be able to sit in a sofa and experience what it feels like and looks like. And so I think this consolidation that we've seen in retail and the incredible role that departments used to play in just forming people's taste or creating awareness for certain brands, this is not good for any industry that so many of these retailers are struggling in this way.

[C]

So quick question before we move on to the next item. Dennis, as someone who's been to a fair amount of department stores in his life, are they doomed? Do they have a future? What do you think?

[A]

I don't want them to be doomed and they certainly could have a future. This was a terribly mismanaged operation. In this stores like Burgdorf's and the windows at Saks and Niemann's set a tone, educated a consumer, elevated people's thinking about what. What could be. And I think great department stores need to be celebrated and run by great merchants and great companies that really believe in them, and not just people who want to sell all the underlying real estate and leverage the company as much as they can, which is, unfortunately, what happened here.

[C]

Sounds like we got a private equity hot take here coming in. It sounds like your stance is that you don't want them to be doomed, but we're not really sure if they are or are not. I don't know.

[A]

We talked about before we came on air, when you go to Paris and go to a great department store. I had to go to Bon Marche. I actually needed to purchase an extra suitcase, Fred. I'm not gonna lie. And Bon Marche is one of the most incredible department stores in the world. And you're reminded of what great merchants, what great merchandise, what great sellers can do with a store. And so I think it's nonsense that this model can't work. It just needs to be well run and in the hands of people that really care. That's where I'm coming down on this one, Fred. Moving on. Sure. We're going to have to talk about ChatGpt, aren't we, Fred? Okay, well, last month you wrote about designers whose clients are turning to AI for a second opinion. I'm almost afraid to know what you found, Fred.

[C]

Well, I'm sad to pull you away from your department store reveries. I feel like we were reliving this wonderful memory, and here we are back in the world of AI well, this was actually sort of inspired by a Monday show episode. You were speaking, speaking with Ray Booth last year, and he was talking about how one of his clients was. They were trying to decide on the right shade of white, and the client had gone to ChatGPT to get a second opinion. And I was thinking, okay, well, if it's happening to Ray Booth, it must be happening to other designers. And so I sort of went looking for the situation that comes up where, you know, clients are turning to ChatGPT for a second opinion, and the second opinion may disagree with what the designer says. And it's kind of crazy just to share a story from the reporting. And, like, I think the very first person I got in contact with told me that she had a client who is so obsessed with ChatGPT that this client would literally take her phone out on the job site and kind of walk around. And the designers say, well, we want to make this clearance 33 inches. And the client would go, chatgpt. The designer says, 30. Like, it's like, like, it's like she's a parrot on her shoulder, like walking around the job site. So this is happening.

[A]

It. It is happening. And I mean, first of all, can you imagine hiring Ray Booth and then feeling like you need to turn to check GPT for a second opinion? One of the most talented, talented architect designers in the world. It just is stunning. And it does speak to how second nature, I guess, this has become for people that are just turning to AI for a second opinion on just everything in their world. But I don't know how designers should feel about this. Andre Malone shared a similar story. I mean, here you are hiring Andre Malone again, AD100 designer, and apparently one of his clients was just saying, oh, what would Peter Marino do with this situation right now? I mean, come on.

[C]

Yeah, it's complicated because I do think that, like, you know, we're talking about extreme examples here. I do think we have to, you know, face the reality that more and more people, you know, whether they're interior design clients or not, are simply turning to AI and getting second opinions and everything, and it's going to become a normalized behavior. And. And I think while we can find extreme, silly examples, I think we should sort of accept that this is just the way people are going to use the Internet in the future and kind of learn to roll with it. And there were interesting examples from the reporting of situations where it kind of went well. I mean, I think that, you know, I think a lot of times clients want to use ChatGPT to sort of quickly visualize it, and, you know, that can lead to problems. But I do think for clients who don't have a strong visual sense, it can be helpful to kind of help them make a decision. So it's not all bad. You know, another designer talked about how like, you know, she and the client were sort of arguing about the budget and the, you know, and then the client put in, you know, her specs for the project in the ChatGPT, and ChatGPT spit out actually a higher number than the designer had quoted. And so it let the designer get the, you know, get the budget she needed for the project. So it can work well for designers. I don't think it's necessarily always bad. I think the real problem with it is that people sort of Come to see chatbots, specifically ChatGPT, almost as like a source of truth. Like, I will type into this box, you know, a question, and it will give me the right answer. And what they're not really perceiving is that what these chatbots are really good at is agreeing with you, especially if there's some subjectivity to the issue of, well, do I really want blue for this wall? You know, if you really, you know, want blue for this wall, even if it's the wrong decision, ChatGPT will agree with you. And I think that's kind of the danger, is that people think they're getting back some kind of truth, but what really, what they're getting back is affirmation of what they're putting in. It's a you get what you put in type situation.

[A]

Absolutely. And I'm so glad you referenced that. I've had ChatGPT tell me in the past that when I, ChatGPT, have done photo shoots in the past, here's a tool that I have used and I had to say to chat. Well, really, have you done photo shoots in the past chat? Because I don't think so. So again, AI the tools can be very delusional even about their own abilities and capacities. And perhaps they might think that they've had experience in this industry, but they. They actually have it. The sad part is, again, I just feel like this has so seeped into the culture in such a short period of time that I don't know what we can do to take this away from clients or tell them that they're not. No, you can't do that. So I, I feel like we have to come to some level of acceptance with it.

[C]

I think that's right. And I also think, like, on some level, I think this is a product of the fact that ChatGPT is just so, so new, especially for people who are just getting into it, like last year or this year. And people don't really have their cultural technical barometer on how seriously to take it. I'm sure when Google search first started getting really popular, people were complaining about, oh, they're Googling everything and finding all kinds of weird links that disagree with me. And I don't like that. This is almost on some level, kind of the same thing, just on, you know, on steroids. And I'm guessing that over time, as the technology becomes more regular, people will develop sort of more of an intuitive sense around what they can trust it for versus what they can't trust it for, what the limitations are. And I Don't think everybody's going to be walking around with chatgpt on their shoulder as they're walking the job site. But it is like a period where we're having to sort of deal with this and I think designers are largely just telling me like, oh, I just have to sort of prove it. If the client says they really want the kitchen island to go this way because ChatGPT said so, they have to be like, okay, well, let's sit down and explain how this is going to not let you get to your refrigerator. So we can't do that. Maybe it's for now, it's maybe just more of a waste of time than anything, but it's out there. It's happening.

[A]

It is. And I think your point about Google and how many transformations were brought about as a result of that search engine and in terms of pricing transparency, in terms of what people were able to discover about product availability. And I think it's easy to imagine that we're going to have exponentially more issues with AI going forward. So I think this is just the tip of the iceberg and we're going to be talking about this a lot more.

[B]

So brace yourselves, people, for that.

[A]

In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about the 1%.

[C]

Yes for town and Country. Last week, Tim Tieman examined a growing trend among the uber wealthy who are now showcasing their extravagant lifestyles on social media. Is loud Luxury the new quiet luxury? Dennis, what do you think? What do you think of that headline?

[A]

I love it. They're going to wish they had used that over at Town and Country, Fred. But I. Sorry, Stelline, but I hope that this isn't the case. I hope loud luxury is not coming to social media near you, but I sense it is.

[C]

So this article is, it's interesting. It talks about this phenomenon. It's sort of like a new class of influencer or sort of maybe change in sort of the culture around wealth. It's sort of both things. But you know, historically there's been this sense of, you know, among the super affluent, you only want to show up in the newspaper if you're born, married or died, I think is the saying. But now I think that social media, you know, has made it so a lot of very wealthy people are sharing their lifestyles much more openly. I think in some cases there is kind of like a deliberate flaunting element. In other cases it's simply just not hiding the way that they might have in the past. It's not so much that they're flaunting their wealth. It's just that they're showing their lives and they live very extravagant, wealthy lives. And it's kind of like a, you know, a cultural change now. I mean, Dennis, do you think this is like a real thing? Is this just a fun trend story to gawk at or has the culture around wealth really changed?

[A]

It's a great question. I think there are many elements around wealth and people feeling much more comfortable than perhaps a previous generation did in both talking about it and showing it. And I do think that there is, particularly in huge swaths of the country, there's just a different way that people live and show how they live and want to share that. And you can can find fault with that or not, but I do think that that is taking hold. I do think, however, when you talk to a lot of high end designers, the consensus still seems to be that for the most part you have to coax a lot of people to really share a project or many people still want to be very private again for security reasons or for privacy reasons, whatever it is. I think people have a lot of incentives to not necessarily let people know, but I think more people are comfortable sharing it than ever. And is it the decline of Western civilization, Fred?

[C]

I don't know. I don't want to weigh in on that one here. But yeah, it's kind of like a tale of two cities, right? Because I think on the one hand a lot of designers are saying it's harder than ever to get their clients permission to photograph their homes. Because I think people are aware of how much those images can travel. They can be everywhere, all over the world in one second. So that's kind of a thing. But on the other hand, if you want to, it's easier than ever to do that. And so it kind of bifurcates know people along those lines. I mean, I think back to 2008 when there was this horrible recession affected so many people in the country. But you know, the uber wealthy still had plenty of money and there was almost a sort of culture in the very high end of the design industry where it was like, okay, we're still kind of working here, but we don't want to talk about that in a big way. And there was a little bit of a pullback around the way that the Uber 1% of designers were talking about their work. Now I don't really feel that that's the case. I feel that there isn't any stigma around that. And I feel like on some level, even though I don't think income inequality is a great thing. I think that people being more open about how their lives look and especially the wealthy people who drive this industry is not necessarily a bad thing for designers. Right.

[A]

That's the question. I mean, is it a bad thing for designers? I don't think so. I think designers would love if more of their clients were willing to share their work.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I think you talk to a lot of designers who say, most of my projects you'll never see because.

[D]

Right.

[A]

And I can't remember if it was. If it was Alexa Hampton who brought up the idea of just having a group where everyone could just look at phone images of projects, things that could never be published. And you just got together.

[D]

Exactly.

[A]

So, I mean, I think it's interesting, all of these home tours and homeworthy and so much of the coverage that we're seeing online everywhere of people taking you through. Through, there seems to be much more willingness somehow to do some of that. But I don't know what it all means. Listen, the industry needs the uber wealthy in a huge way. It's what so many of these companies are in business for and to serve. So I think if more people are willing to show it off, perhaps it'll be great for designers and vendors and perhaps more of the word will get out there. Look at me trying to put a positive spin on this, Fred, even though.

[C]

I know you're against your thing, I know your WASPy heart is crying right now.

[A]

Exactly. Well, I was just raised you didn't talk about money, darn it. So it's hard for me, but I want it to be good for the industry. So if I need to support this idea, I guess I will.

[B]

All right, that's it for the news.

[A]

But there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including all the smart home tech that debuted at CES and the latest showroom openings. We'll be back in a minute.

[B]

But first, first a quick break. At the Huntington in California, unfinished artwork by William Morris, J.H. durrell and other original creatives behind Morris Co. Have been uncovered. Now these historic sketches, left incomplete for more than a century, have been carefully finished by the Morrison Co Design Student Studio and transformed into an extraordinary new body of work. It's a brand new chapter in a legacy that spans more than 160 years.

[A]

Discover the brand new wallpaper and fabric.

[B]

Designs within the collection on wmmorrisandco.com this.

[A]

Winter, Laloy debuted beautiful new rug and.

[B]

Pillow collections that are grounded in rich colors, natural materials and innovative craft. Their expansive breadth of product includes new must see collaborations with designers Jeremiah Brent and Leanne Ford. See it [e-mail] that's L O L O I rugs.com and follow loloy rugs on Instagram and TikTok for the latest news and collaborations from the Loyola.

[A]

And we're back. I'm joined now by prominent New York city publicist Michael McGraw, who's got a new endeavor that we're gonna talk about. Michael, welcome to the show.

[D]

Thank you, Mr. Scully. I'm so thrilled to be here.

[A]

I'm delighted to have you. And as you and I were talking about before we came on air, you and I are usually prepping one of your clients to come on the show. Today, it's you. I hope you're not feeling in the hot seat, Michael.

[D]

I am totally feeling in the hot seat. This is a position I'm not ever in. It's fun to be on the other side for a minute.

[A]

Well, I'm delighted to have you. And we should tell people about your career in PR and tell us about how you even came into doing publicity and public relations.

[D]

Well, how much time do we.

[A]

Yeah, tell us your life story, Michael. Go way back.

[D]

I had a somewhat unconventional introduction to the world of pr. I actually started right out of college working for PETA, the animal rights group People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and they were based in the D.C. area at the time. I'm from D.C. originally, and I was the director of celebrity media campaigns. All of those rather go naked than wear fur ads with people like Pamela Anderson, Anna Nicole Smith, and a lot of celebrities. It was the mid and late 90s. It was a very fun time to be there. From there, I decided I wanted a little change of pace, and I went to work for an amazing company called laforce and Stevens, which is now simply laforce. James laforce was a huge mentor to me along with dan Matthews at PETA. It was such a great experience. I actually did two tours of duty at LaForce as well as two tours of duty at PETA. I kind of bounced back and forth a couple times, and I did that until 2011 when I started McGraw PR. And incredibly, going into my 15th year of my own agency this summer, which is crazy to think about, but it's been a great ride so far.

[A]

And did you imagine a particular focus when you started your own firm? Was there an area that you wanted to specialize in or how were you thinking about it?

[D]

100% design from the very Very beginning at La Force, I had started on some fashion clients but quickly found my niche working in design. And at the same time I met my future husband, David Duncan, who is a longtime mainstay of the New York design scene with an antiques and lighting store. And I'd always had a passion for design but he really helped me me discover a lot about design, especially historically. And during my second stint at laforce I was entirely on the design side and my clients included everyone from the Kips Bay show house to Restoration Hardware. We actually did the press for the very first the big RH store at Flatiron and that was just a gargantuan project. So fun to work on. I mean that was really, really as they were about to skyrocket and I've really enjoyed, I follow actually very closely business of homes coverage of RH earnings.

[A]

And it's a pretty constant subject here. It is, it is.

[D]

But I find you know, they're so influential and whatever you may think of that, you know, there are a lot of different opinions but I sure I think a lot of him. I think he's brilliant. And in my second stint at laforce I was all design worked with some great tabletop brands. Kips Bay, I worked on three show, well two and a half show houses technically one show house. It was the first time it actually fell through. We were at the pre renovation party, all of the designers were there in their unrenovated spaces to greet people and sort of tell their vision for the spaces they were going to be decorating. And we found out at that party that the house had been sold and the owner broke the contract with Kips Bay and sold the house. And it was actually I think a really great experience.

[A]

So you did a great many things over the years it sounds like. And all the while you mentioned your husband David and the tremendous influence he was having on you. Was he part of planting the seed for your interest in what you you are now engaged in?

[D]

I think that would be a fair characterization. I mean I've watched him build his business. He has an incredible clientele of a list designers who have come to him for his expert eye in antiques. And I've seen how he has evolved as the tastes have changed for anti. So seeing him build a successful to the trade business over so many years and I've certainly learned a lot from him about the sort of the back end and how to run a business. So absolutely he's been an inspiration in starting my gallery.

[A]

But you've worked very closely with a lot of prominent designers. And I wonder, and we should explain about your gallery and exactly what it is and tell people the name and all of that. But I wonder, wonder, did some of the many designers that you've worked with over the years also give you insight to their passions around collecting and art and what influence that had on you as well?

[D]

I'm curious. Absolutely. In my PR business, it has been such an honor to represent so many incredibly talented and very creative designers. And in the years that I have been doing design pr, I feel like I've just been vacuuming coming up, what they do, how they source the pieces that they're drawn to. And I think that this is a little bit of a point of differentiation for me. I mean, obviously New York is filled with design galleries. I think all of them are valuable. They all have a distinct point of view. There are many that I really, really like in my new role as a gallerist, I think what I bring to the conversation is, is an editorial background. I have spent years reviewing countless design projects and really studying what works, what gets published and what gets passed over. And in fact, as an example, when I first started working with Jamie Drake, I was on one of my first shoots with him, a magazine shoot. And he used an incredible chance chair by a designer I had never heard of before, based in the uk. His name is Julian Maior. And I was just so fascinated by this piece of furniture. And that was literally the first thing I set aside in my mind and then bookmarked on my computer. Someday, if I ever have a gallery, I want to track down Julian Mayor and try to represent some of his work. And he was one of the first people I reached out to for my gallery and. And he said yes immediately. And it was sort of a total full circle moment to first have learned about this amazingly talented artist from one of my clients. And I'm thrilled to have his work in the show.

[A]

Well, as you mentioned, you just opened the gallery and are running your first exhibition, it sounds like. So tell us about it. Tell us the name of the gallery and where it is and some of the details so that people can, can follow along.

[D]

Well, the gallery is called Dernier Cri, which means literally the French translation is last cry, which I love because it's, you know, it's kind of romantic and has a little bit of a dark edge, which is very me. But in common, in common usage in French, it means the latest thing. That's how it's used in conversation. And so we're on 60th street between 2nd and 3rd. And the first exhibition, which opened last week, is called Night Shift. And I really wanted to focus on all of this talent. These designers and artists that I have been screenshotting and bookmarking for years. I started with my very favorite ones, and their aesthetics are really quite disparate, from textiles to ceramics to woodworking, furniture, rubber, all the different kinds of material. And I was thinking about how to unify them into a cohesive presentation. And I have always loved the color black. And I thought, well, you know, some of these artists, they work in black, but some of their work is quite colorful. Maybe I can challenge them to commission them to create works all in black. For this first show, I thought limiting the palette to a single hue would be a way to unify some very disparate pieces of furniture and works of art. And it was so exciting to see everyone sort of take on the challenge and watch along as they kind of got out of their comfort zones a little bit in some cases and created some really, really beautiful, beautiful pieces.

[A]

How long have you really been thinking, okay, I'm really going to open a gallery. I'm really going to. As you and I were talking about earlier, I'm going to diversify my firm and some of my focus and really make this a reality, rather than me just saving all these screenshots over the years.

[D]

It started in 2021, actually. We were still in the throes of pretty early Covid, and I think everybody. Everybody in some way, shape or form, was sort of kind of rethinking what they wanted to do and what they're capable of and what the future held. And in the past several years, I've gone from, oh, we'll get to that later, or, you know, there will be time for that later. And the older you get, you realize the future is now and not getting any younger. What are you waiting for?

[C]

And.

[D]

And so it was really last spring that I decided, you know, the future is now, and I'm going to do this. My PR business is going really well. What's missing is a bricks and mortar location where I can introduce design talent in a different way in a physical space. And then from there, it was really about figuring out logistics. We have work from artists and designers and Europe throughout the United States, and shipping in the time of ever changing tariffs, and that whole process of importation and getting things from point A to point B is a real talent to figure it out and how to do it.

[A]

Well, I was curious about that, and I'm glad you mentioned it. I was curious about even the dynamics of. So these pieces are coming over, but.

[B]

They'Re not yet sold.

[A]

So there isn't necessarily a transaction to stamp a tariff on. Or is it tariffed simply by coming into the country?

[D]

Remarkably, it is tariffed simply coming into the country. And the tariffs have been so damaging to the American design world. I mean, there's not an interior designer or architecture architect who hasn't been tremendously impacted by tariffs. And, you know, we are a global economy, and the design world is a global entity. And most designers love to travel the world and find inspiration from people doing different things in different places, and they bring that back. And, you know, the best design incorporates elements from all over the place. And a lot of gallerists try to bring to their clientele a mixture and show them pieces that they may not have had access to otherwise. So to deal with the tariffs that are ever changing. And it is unfortunate, but we're learning to deal with it and it is what it is. But, yes, to answer your question, the tariffs get paid whether the work gets sold or not. If work doesn't get sold and goes back to the designer engine Europe, do I ever get the tariff back? Probably not. I don't know.

[A]

No. Well, you'll cross that bridge when you come to it, I suppose. Hopefully things will get sold. And is everything just on a sort of commission basis for you, or how have you set that up?

[D]

That's exactly right, yes. So everything is on a commission basis. We handle the transactions with the designers and then the artists and designers whose work we're representing, then they get the commission from the sale.

[A]

And to your earlier point about learning so much from so many of your clients and seeing how they collect and.

[B]

Think about that, do you see a.

[A]

Bridge to this gallery and the world that you work in in pr? And do you feel, in a way it even better informs you about everything might be going on for your. For your clients?

[D]

That's a really great question. I really think of myself as a designer's gallerist. I was really struck by and inspired by an interview that I listened to with Amy Astley from Architectural Digest a while back, where someone asked her, you know, what does it take to get published in ad? How do we get in into your pages? And she said, we are looking for interiors that. That look like they could have been designed for no one other than that homeowner. They have that much personalization. And I've really taken that to heart, both in my PR business and talking to my designer and architect clients and the projects that we're presenting to magazines and also to the artists and designers that we're working with for the Gallery Gallery and for Durnier Cri. I'm really searching for work that is very unique, that looks like it could only have been created by that designer, by that artist. They're really bringing something unique to the conversation.

[B]

Well, and does that speak to this.

[A]

World of collectible design that we've seen emerge in a huge way in recent years and help me understand it better. What is collectible design and how should we think of it? How do we identify it when we see it?

[D]

You tell me. You know what? A lot of people in this industry kind of view collectible design as a bad word. Well, a bad phrase. In fact, when I was sort of germinating this idea of opening a gallery and talking to friends in the industry and, you know, that term would come up and they'd say, oh, well, you can't use that like, you know, that's, you know, it's not collectible design. You have to think of another way to message that. But at the end of the day, whatever your thoughts are about collectible design, it's shorthand that everybody the world over uses and understands. And you can create a narrative around what you're doing with more flowery language. But some of the biggest galleries or best galleries that I have so much respect for, they use the term collectible design. And I think sort of the commonly accepted definition is design. Well, collectible design kind of goes hand in hand with functional art. And it's. It's design that is handmade, super unique, unique. Functional art means it may be a sculpture, but you could also sit on it, or it has some other purpose where you can. You can use it. It's a piece of art that is usable in some way. And maybe collectible design, too, connotes something that has perhaps a bit more permanence than something that you might buy from a retailer where it looks great today, might look great for another couple of years, but you might get tired of it after that. I mean, interior design, at the end of the day is very ephemeral collectible design. I think the beauty of a lot of these pieces is that they defy a certain time period, they're uniquely artistic, and hopefully have some permanence. And their pieces that. That when clients invest in them, they will carry with them to their next homes.

[B]

And do you imagine to that point.

[A]

Michael, I'm so curious because. And recently I had Nicole Hollis into the New York School of Interior Design to Talk with me. And her work is so impressive, and the artists that she works with and the things that are created for her projects are just on such an enormous scale. And I wonder, do you imagine the pieces that you show at the gallery.

[B]

As just being perhaps a jumping off.

[A]

Point for a designer? Perhaps working with the artist who's showing a piece as saying, sure, this artist can do this, but they can also do anything you want. If you want to collaborate on a project and you can facilitate that, do you imagine that being part of where this goes?

[D]

Absolutely. I think many of the designers that we work with have very clear ideas of what they want, how they want to compose an interior. And so, for example, in our gallery, they may see a sculpture and think it could be perfect for a living room they're working on, but it needs to scale up a little bit. Maybe the finish could be a little bit brighter, a little bit darker. And everyone we're working with can customize their designs to fit designer specifications. So in a sense, what we have in the gallery, it's all available, but in a way, they're also samples of what the artists and designers can create.

[A]

Yeah. In the classic designer, I love you. Now change way.

[C]

You're perfect.

[D]

Now change. Yeah.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

I wouldn't change a thing except, well, everything.

[D]

Everything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I love it, and I can't wait to have it be part of my project. Well, this is so exciting, Michael, Michael, that you've taken this on, and I know that it comes at a time, as you and I were talking about, where the PR and media world is changing so rapidly, and we both have many friends in the industry who are trying to figure out what best advice to give clients these days and where to focus. Interesting that you mentioned Amy, apparently, lastly, being asked, as I'm sure she is constantly, how do you get published? And all of that. And so many editors and designers talk.

[B]

About how much even the significance of.

[A]

That has changed and that that isn't as much of a focus as it once was. And there are so many other ways of making a meaningful connection with would be clients or people. Social media certainly being one the of them. But tell me how you're thinking about all of this and what you're advising clients is worth focusing on today in light of just how much has changed.

[B]

Just in the last few years.

[D]

It's been interesting to watch from this side how much the media landscape really has changed. And a big part of our job is keeping up with these changes, figuring out what editors are looking for the magazine landscape for Example has really gone through a lot of evolution in the past five to ten years. Many magazines have closed, but the ones that we have in many cases have reduced frequency. There aren't many magazines that still publish 12 issues a year, for example. So that means fewer opportunities for products to be featured, fewer opportunities for projects to be featured. At the same time, a lot has moved online, and I'd say one big difference is that the distinction between being published in print or online, that line has been erased, largely. Which is great, because when you have been published by El Decor or published by Ad, or published by Gallery or any of the many magazines that we love, whether it's digital or print, you have been published by that media property. And you can always say that you were published by them. I think, too, as frequency has been reduced, but at some magazines, there are fewer issues. It makes the projects that do stick, that do get published in print or online, that much more special, that much more of an accomplishment, because even the digital properties of these magazines, it's not like they're publishing five projects online a day. It's actually very few in the course of the month. So it's extremely competitive to get something published digitally or on the print side, and it makes it that much more of an accomplishment when you do land that.

[A]

I wonder, Michael, the success rate or the hit rate with so many things that used to work seems to have changed quite a bit. And I wonder what used to work that really doesn't anymore and what's taken its place? I mean, we often have this conversation about designers getting in front of the camera and becoming more of a personality and getting on reels and putting themselves out there more. But you've worked with many clients for whom that's not a high comfort zone for them. Right. And that's not their forte. And so I wonder what else works for people that they can focus on instead.

[D]

You're right. It's something that doesn't come naturally to some people. For others it does. And. And it's a conversation we have with all of our clients on an ongoing basis. Of course, I don't take any of my own advice. I've never posted a video of myself talking on social media. But the algorithms prefer people over static interior images. They prefer people talking, they prefer videos. So it's not just people, but people on video. Right. That's the content that will perform the most. That is the content that will get pushed forward on Instagram. And another huge part that I think a lot of people overlook is the engagement. And we Manage the social media accounts for a couple of our PR clients. And engagement is super time consuming but so important because you can have the most beautiful feed, the greatest content. But if you're not engaging with other accounts who follow follow you, they may never see your content to bother to click like on it because the algorithms just push that down when your account isn't liking, and not just liking, but commenting on, you know, it wants to see a genuine tie between your account and another account and that's how you. You build more traction. So doing this is often kind of the last thing that a lot of our clients want to think about doing. They're so busy running their businesses and designing these incredible homes homes. But it is important and a lot of our designers get new business leads from social media and it's a great way of marketing.

[A]

Seems like TikTok has gotten a reprieve. I can't really tell if our industry has moved on to TikTok in a meaningful way. I think some people have found success there, but I don't sense that a huge swath of the design industry is there quite yet.

[D]

It kind of reached peak TikTok for me when we got a query from a digital editor wondering if we had a designer who could could weigh in on Tomato Girl summer, which I'm still not really sure what Tomato Girl Summer.

[A]

Loving the micro trends.

[D]

Yes. Yeah. So, but they do entire roundups on these TikTok micro trends and you can't blame them. I mean, on the digital side of these media properties, it's all about traffic and that has actually tapered off a little bit in the past, like four to six months. I think 2025 was peak TikTok trend. We'll see where it goes this year.

[A]

It's an interesting landscape and a challenging one. So it sounds as though you feel like people need to. As much as they may resist, they need to get in front of the camera more. Sounds like the advice that even you might have to take soon.

[D]

They need to get in front of the camera, talk to the camera, tell their followers what they have going on. It's amazing. I think some of the most successful social media content producers talk about the minutiae of their lives and people can't get enough of that and doesn't seem to be going anywhere. And it's something that all of us, including myself, need to get a lot more comfortable with.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's an important message for all of us. I too need to get more comfortable with. So don't think that I'm not feeling the pressure as well.

[D]

Maybe we can do it together. We'll do one of these together.

[A]

I would love that. In the meantime, I'm thrilled about the gallery. I'm so happy for you and excited that this has gotten off the ground. And I really appreciate you coming on and talking to me about it.

[D]

Thank you so much. I'm delighted to be here.

[A]

And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?

[C]

I didn't want to do this, Dennis, but I'm going to bring up tariffs. Again, I'm very, very sorry to the people who stuck around for this part, but we're going to talk tariffs just for a minute. We talked, I think, a few months ago about this phenomenon of companies preemptively suing the United States government because the idea is if the Supreme Court rules that all these tariffs are actually illegal, there's going to be a big scramble to try and get a refund on all the tariff money that you've been paying. And so a lot of companies like Costco and Revlon have sued the US Government trying to get first in line to get that money just in case the Supreme Court goes their way. And surprisingly, there haven't been that many home companies who have done this. But I found out recently that late last December, McGee and company's sort of retail brand was one of the many companies who are suing the US Government to try and get a tariff refund. So it is happening at all levels, really big companies, people who have even people who've been on the business of own podcasts are participating in this in this rush. So, you know, I mean, I have no idea whether it'll be successful. It, of course, depends on what's going to happen with, you know, the Supreme Court. But it was interesting just to dig into that lawsuit and I wrote a quick story about it for boh. So if you want to if you want to read more about tariffs, check that out. What got your eye this week, Dennis?

[A]

A couple things caught my one, some big news coming out of Britain. Veer Grenny, a former guest on the show and many people's favorite designer, has announced that he's putting another name on the door of the firm. Granny Greg. His longtime partner, Natasha Gregg, will now be elevated to having her name on the door and being a full partner in the firm. And I'm excited for the them. I think there's a lot going on for Veer these days, so I'm eager to have him back and have a chat. But I'm, I'm excited for, for both of them. That's, that's big news. And I feel like this is a trend, some people being elevated and some extra names being put on the door. So I, I think that's great because we've often talked about how firms struggle with what comes next. So I'm, I'm pleased to see a plan in place at this firm that I have long admired. The other thing that we, we wrote about and some big news coming out. Mitchell Gold has wrapped up his time with Surya and Mitchell Gold and has hung out a shingle doing some consulting through a firm hindsight forward where he'll be advising companies and brands. And few have built as strong a brand recognition recognition as Mitchell Gold. So I think Mitchell Gold has a lot to share about how to build a great company and I'm eager to find out what the, what the third act now for Mitchell Gold will be.

[C]

Yeah, I spoke to him briefly to write this item for our news digest, and it was interesting. He was, he was very candid. He was like, I did a lot of things right, but I also did some things I would do differently. And I think that, like, people can learn from that. You know, we had a funny conversation about what to do when private equity comes knocking. And I think he's seen the industry just from so many different viewpoints. You know, marketing and product development and, you know, acquisition deals. And, you know, he's got, got a lot to share, so I'm sure many people will take him up on the offer.

[A]

I hope that they do. And, and I wish him all the best and I'm, I'm eager to catch up with him and, and hear everything that he's got planned. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with.

[B]

The latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us [e-mail] if.

[A]

You want to get in touch with.

[B]

The show, write to [e-mail] this episode.

[A]

Was produced by Fred Nicholaus and Caroline.

[B]

Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda.

[A]

I'm Dennis Scully.

[B]

Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.