The Thursday Show: Lindsey Adelman makes a change. Plus: Will Wayfair ever be profitable?

Summary

Business of Home Podcast Summary
Episode: The Thursday Show: Lindsey Adelman Makes a Change. Plus: Will Wayfair Ever Be Profitable?
Release Date: February 27, 2025
Host: Dennis Scully
Guest: Lindsey Adelman, Influential Lighting Designer

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Introduction

In this episode of the Business of Home Podcast, host Dennis Scully, alongside executive editor Fred Niklaus, delves into the latest industry news before welcoming renowned lighting designer Lindsey Adelman to discuss significant changes at her studio. The episode covers a wide array of topics, including consumer spending trends, corporate earnings, technological advancements in showrooms, critiques of real estate listings, and insightful perspectives from Adelman on navigating business transformations.

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Key News Discussions

1. Wealthy Americans on a Spending Spree

Fred Niklaus introduces a compelling study revealing that the top 10% of American households now account for nearly half of all consumer spending—the highest proportion since 1989 (06:02). This trend underscores a split economy, where high earners continue to invest heavily despite broader economic challenges.

Dennis Scully elaborates, noting, "It's the tale of two cities, Fred, that we always talk about, right?" (06:30). Fred adds, "over the past four years, spending by high earners has increased 58%, which is certainly way, way more than the accumulative effect of inflation" (06:18). This concentration of spending power raises concerns about economic stability, especially if the stock market falters, potentially curbing the spending habits of these affluent households.

2. Wayfair’s Earnings Report

The podcast shifts focus to Wayfair's latest financial performance. Wayfair reported a half a billion dollars loss for the fiscal year 2024, with only marginal revenue growth compared to 2023 (12:00). Dennis Scully highlights the ongoing challenges: "There was only one time that they made money and that was in 2020," referencing Wayfair's brief period of profitability during the COVID-19 boom (12:19).

Fred utilizes Zeno's Paradox to illustrate Wayfair's struggle for profitability: "It's always going to become profitable. They're making steps, they're halfway to profitability. They're halfway to halfway to profitability" (13:45). Despite efforts to cut costs and expand physical stores, the sustainability of Wayfair's business model outside pandemic-driven demand remains uncertain.

3. Home Depot and Lowe’s Outlook

Both Home Depot and Lowe’s reported solid quarterly sales, with Home Depot nearing $40 billion and Lowe’s achieving $1.1 billion in sales (15:59). However, both companies issued cautious guidance for 2025. Dennis observes, "neither company was predicting that mortgage rates were coming down in any meaningful way" (16:24), signaling ongoing concerns about the housing market's recovery and its impact on renovations and furnishings demand.

Fred adds, "immigration crackdowns might affect Home Depot because immigrants make up a large part of the workforce for construction crews" (17:11), highlighting external factors that could influence these home improvement giants' future performance.

4. New Software for Multi-Line Showrooms

Fred Niklaus discusses an innovative software tool developed by Atlanta-based showrooms Ainsworth Noah and Jerry Pear, named Trade Tech (19:53). This platform aims to streamline the complex operations of multi-line showrooms, offering functionalities tailored to their intricate business models. Dennis Scully expresses enthusiasm for the tool, emphasizing its potential to modernize an industry traditionally slow to adopt new technologies.

However, the high cost—$40,000 for initial software and a monthly maintenance fee—poses a significant barrier for smaller showrooms, indicating that widespread adoption may be limited to larger, more financially robust companies.

5. Critique on Zillow’s Design Listings

Design writer David Michon’s critique of Zillow is another focal point. Michon argues that Zillow’s approach to home staging promotes bland and uniform designs, which can negatively influence the public’s perception of desirable home aesthetics (26:48). Dennis concurs, stating, "Where is the passion? Where is the poetry?" (27:45), and both hosts agree on the opportunity for more creative and personalized real estate presentations.

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Industry Highlights

Cabinetry Line Developments

Fred highlights a trend in the cabinetry market, noting that major companies like Floor and Decor are launching new cabinetry lines to meet growing renovation demands (57:59). This movement fills a gap between budget-friendly and high-end cabinetry options, signaling potential growth in the home renovation sector.

Dennis adds, "I was just in Ikea a couple of weeks ago and I noticed their like cabinetry and closet sections are like three times bigger than they used to be" (58:41), indicating increased consumer interest and investment in home cabinetry solutions.

Notable Design Spaces and Inflation in Design Costs

Dennis shares his visit to the new Schumacher space at the New York Design Center, praising its chic design and strategic partnerships (57:59). Additionally, he references designer Brian Paquette’s alarming report of a 30% increase in project costs over two years, illustrating the significant inflation impacts within the interior design industry (58:41). Fred echoes the concern, acknowledging the dramatic rise in material costs and its implications for designers.

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Interview Segment: Lindsey Adelman

Major Changes at Adelman Lighting Studio

The episode's highlight is an in-depth conversation with Lindsey Adelman, a luminary in lighting design. Adelman shares her decision to downsize her studio to focus more on creative and sculptural work, moving away from the relentless drive for business growth. She explains, “I really was, you know, sort of like, why? Like, where are we going?” (33:27), emphasizing the importance of maintaining creative integrity over expansion.

Transitioning Production Operations

Adelman outlines a two-year transition plan to transfer production responsibilities to a trusted partner. This strategic move aims to preserve the craftsmanship and quality of her work while freeing up her time to engage in more personally fulfilling projects. She states, “I'm really just happy that I figured out a way to support the work living on and that I didn't... it's a well-oiled machine and system” (47:31).

Social Media Hiatus and Reimagining Connectivity

Adelman discusses her temporary hiatus from Instagram due to its commercial pressures and negative impact on her mental well-being. She shares her desire to return to more authentic, in-person interactions with her community: “I'm just really craving that” (49:24). This introspection aligns with her broader goal of fostering deeper creative connections and maintaining a stimulating work environment.

Upcoming Projects and Future Vision

Looking ahead, Adelman is excited about her upcoming show at Future Perfect in May, which will showcase her new body of work developed through this transformative phase. She remarks, “It's coming out of this place that is a bit more elusive or the drivers are different” (54:36), highlighting a shift towards more innovative and personal design endeavors.

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Conclusion

This episode of the Business of Home Podcast offers a comprehensive exploration of current trends and challenges within the interior design industry. From the economic behaviors of affluent consumers and the financial struggles of major companies like Wayfair, to technological advancements in showroom operations and the creative introspection of leaders like Lindsey Adelman, Dennis Scully and Fred Niklaus provide valuable insights for professionals and enthusiasts alike. The episode underscores the dynamic interplay between economic forces, technological innovation, and creative integrity shaping the future of home design.

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Notable Quotes:

• Fred Niklaus (06:18): “Over the past four years, spending by high earners has increased 58%, which is certainly way, way more than the accumulative effect of inflation.”

• Dennis Scully (12:19): “There was only one time that they made money and that was in 2020.”

• Fred Niklaus (13:45): “It's always going to become profitable. They're making steps, they're halfway to profitability. They're halfway to halfway to profitability.”

• Lindsey Adelman (33:27): “I really was, you know, sort of like, why? Like, where are we going?”

• Lindsey Adelman (54:20): “Work is a different way of designing. And it's really coming. It's, you could say like a craving or like an urge or something like that in me.”

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For more in-depth insights and updates, visit businessofhome.com.

Transcript

[Dennis Scully]

This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be talking to lighting designer Lindsay Adelman about a major change at her studio. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including Wayfair's latest numbers, a new tech tool for showrooms, and a critique of the blandness of Zillow. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Niklaus. Hi, Fred.

[Fred Niklaus]

Hi, Dennis. How's it going?

[Dennis Scully]

Great. How you doing?

[Fred Niklaus]

I'm doing good. Listeners should know that if we sound a little scattered today, it's because our producer, Caroline Burke, has flown the coop and gone to Vegas to go to kabis. So keep an eye out for her there if you happen to see an ace producer wandering the halls. But we are at loose ends here for sure.

[Dennis Scully]

Let Caroline know how much she means to us by knowing how scattered we seem on this show. Yes, we need her. Get back here soon and don't let.

[Fred Niklaus]

Her gamble away the podcast millions at the craps table in Vegas.

[Dennis Scully]

I hope she's not at the win, is all I can say.

[Fred Niklaus]

Exactly. And if she is, I hope she's taking in the lovely fabric and wallpaper from former podcast guest Lori Weitzner. There we go.

[Dennis Scully]

Good for you. Yes, absolutely.

[Fred Niklaus]

That's the name I was digging for. Well, let's look back at another former podcast guest, a more recent one, the inimitable Stephanie Sabi. What can be said? You and Stephanie already said it all in an interview that stretched on well past the hour mark, but a great conversation. One of my favorites we've ever done.

[Dennis Scully]

What a shame we had to cut that conversation back down from its original seven hours to just the slightly over an hour. But no, it was a fun conversation. I was trying to think what to say to people about this conversation. Full of personal stories, but also just insights and frankness and just candid talk about some of the challenges in the business and some of the many obstacles that she has faced over the over the years. What jumped out at you?

[Fred Niklaus]

I know it's tough to pick. I mean, do we go with the anecdote about the raid on her uncle's marijuana farm? Do we go about the runaway pricing increases that have been affecting the industry? There's so much to choose from. One random little moment that just jumped out at me that I loved was her talking about how there's almost this, like, shame among interior designers around advertising. She was talking about, well, what do you do when times get slow? Like everyone wants to say all word of mouth. I've never taken out an ad. I've never done anything like that. But what are you supposed to do if business slows down a little bit? And so she's talking about that dilemma, that sort of social pressure that designers sometimes sort of feel like they're under. Not to take out an ad or not to market themselves. I mean, really, the interview is just so many raw and honest and open takes. Really, we should replace me and put Stephanie in this chair because it was just such a great conversation.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I have gotten a lot of notes asking when Stephanie and I will be doing a show together. So, I mean, let's keep her on reserve, shall we, and see if she can step in when need be. But I don't want to lose you, Fred. You're far too important to me on so many levels.

[Fred Niklaus]

Well, let's see how things are going with Caroline at the craps table before. Before you make any big decisions.

[Dennis Scully]

But, yeah, exactly. Please call in Caroline. We want to know how you're doing. I thought that was so interesting about the advertising and how she said, what are we supposed to be, farmers just waiting for rain? I mean, there were a lot of fun conversations, and in her book are many fun and often poignant stories that she. That she shares. But it was a. It was a great conversation. We'd been wanting to do it for a while. I'm glad that it came together as well as it did and that listeners seem to be responding as much as they are. So I really appreciate that, and I thank you all for listening, and I hope you enjoy. Okay, we're going to get into the news in just a moment, but first, a quick break. This podcast is sponsored by Jaipur Living. At Jaipur Living, it's always been about more than rugs. Founded in 1978, Jaipur Living began with a bold to empower women artisans in rural India, giving them dignity, independence, and a chance to thrive. Today, they partner with over 40,000 skilled artisans, 85% of whom are women, to create breathtaking handmade rugs that bring texture and soul into your home. When you choose Jaipur Living, you're not just buying a rug. You're helping transform communities. Visit JaiporLiving.com to see the beauty of their work and their journey. This podcast is also sponsored by Hector Finch Lighting, who've been selling British manufactured decorative lighting to the design community worldwide for more than 30 years. Hector Finch is known for their clean lines, impeccable craftsmanship, and a less is more philosophy. Working with the highest quality European techniques. And materials including mouth blown glass, hand thrown ceramics and alabaster. Hector Finch produces a high specification product much loved by designers around the world. Hector Finch is represented in all major markets in North America and their dedicated team is on hand to discuss their many custom options. You can count on Hector Finch to deliver friendly personal service tailored to the needs of your clients. To learn more, visit hectorfinch.com and follow Hector Finch lighting on Instagram. And we're back. First up, Fred, wealthy Americans are on a spending spree.

[Fred Niklaus]

Someone's gotta do it. Someone's gotta be on a spending spree. According to a new study, the top 10% of households now account for nearly half of consumer spending, the highest level since 1989. Now, on one level, those numbers are kind of shocking, but are we really surprised?

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah. Who's got those big brokerage accounts and those homes that have appreciated so much in value? That's right, it's the wealthy Americans. It's the tale of two cities, Fred, that we always talk about, right?

[Fred Niklaus]

Yeah. I mean, I think this is sort of a thing that we all intuitively know and understand. But when you really see these numbers, it becomes very clear. Over the past four years, spending by high earners has increased 58%, which is certainly way, way more than the accumulative effect of inflation. What this number did for me personally, which is that it helped me kind of like explain this weird dichotomy that often comes up on this podcast, which is that if we're talking about kind of the retail brands, the Wayfarers, those people are all struggling. The housing market is still frozen. They're still not making nearly as much money as they were during the COVID boom. But at the higher end of the market, where interior designers play, those people are still spending money. We could have one conversation, you know, in the morning where I'm talking with a consultant who works with furniture brands, and it's like, oh, it's so much pain out there. Then I talk to a designer at 3pm and they're like, best year ever, man. Like, so it really is kind of a split economy, especially in the home world. And this study really puts a fine point on that.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, exactly. And it also points to the wage differential in this country. And so the people that were able to just save so much money during COVID felt like they were even richer than they might have felt before coming out of COVID And they couldn't wait to get out and spend. Although sadly, Fred, what we see them spending most of their money on today not so much the home furnishings, but all those trips that they're taking, apparently. What do you make of that?

[Fred Niklaus]

Well, yeah, the article in the Wall Street Journal about this study was talking about how the wealthy are spending so much. But every successive anecdote was like, well, I went on safari and I was like, oh. Then the next couple was like, well, we bought a plane. So you really do see that even among the big spender is it's spending on experiences, it's on luxury fashion goods. I do think that it's the same old story that coming out of COVID even among the people who are still spending, they're not spending on their homes quite as much as they used to. An interesting. Not to put a damper on this fun conversation, but one of the weird things about this number is that consumer spending, it's responsible for such a huge slice of the GDP, and now it's like the 10% of Americans are accounting for half of that. And a lot of the reason they're spending so much is because stocks are up so much. Stocks have been on an absolute tear over the past four years, and that's part of why they feel so confident in spending this money. It does make you realize, okay, well, what happens if the stock market goes down, which I've heard does sometimes happen? Does that cause this 10% of people to stop spending? And then what's the broader effect on the economy? It was an interesting number, but it definitely made me feel a little precarious about what's to come in the next six to eight months.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, exactly as you were saying, 70% of the GDP is now coming from consumer spending, and almost 50% of that is this top 10% of households in the country. So it is a group that has an outsized influence. And unfortunately, what we've seen just recently is some consumer confidence numbers that dropped by about seven points, which doesn't sound like a lot, but is actually the largest monthly decline since August of 2021. And people have begun to tell us in this report that suddenly all this talk about tariffs, which we on our other show, the tariff talk show, are a big issue for people and a concern, and that people aren't convinced that inflation is under control. And in fact, they're predicting much higher inflation. So what could take the stock market down and what could raise some of those anxiety levels is all the things that we've been pointing to recently.

[Fred Niklaus]

Yeah, I don't know. This has rapidly went from a fun item to a depressing one. But yeah, I mean, the consumer confidence thing is interesting. I mean, just to kind of step it back and step back from the edge of the cliff. I think consumer confidence has been kind of going up and down over the past four years, ever since COVID We're not at some historic low. This is just sort of the lowest point of this range. But as you said, when they do this study, they ask people why they're feeling less confident. And a big thing is all this uncertainty that seems to be coming out of the political world. Tariffs, inflation, what's going to happen next? And I think there was this big surge of confidence and excitement after the election because people felt, okay, politics is finally behind us. We can just get back to spending and buying all these planes we seem to like buying and maybe get back to renovating our house. And I just think politics has felt so crazy over the past few weeks and months. And I think people are just less certain about what's really going to happen. And I think that we need a little bit of clarity and calm before those numbers jump back up. So we'll all hold our breath and hope that happens in the next few days, weeks, months. What do you think, David?

[Dennis Scully]

Well, exactly. It's been a very noisy environment, Fred, and I don't see things settling down anytime soon. But what that is going to mean to people's psyche, we'll find out. Because as I think Jonathan Miller, the real estate expert who we've had on the show, as I think he often reminds us, it's not about the money, it's about the mood. And the mood has definitely altered in recent weeks. So we'll have to see what it means. Let's move on and talk about earnings season, shall we? So public companies are reporting their numbers for the quarter, including a lot of brands that we talk about here on the show. Where do you want to start, Fred? We start with Wayfair.

[Fred Niklaus]

Let's start with Wayfair. Last week, the E commerce giant reported its numbers for the fourth quarter. And for the full fiscal year, 2024 was a mixed bag for Wayfair. It lost less money, but it still lost money, about a half a billion dollars. The fourth quarter showed revenue ticking up compared to 2023, but not by much. What were your thoughts on these numbers?

[Dennis Scully]

Well, what always jumps out at me and you and I have joked that, that honestly, when you get the Wayfarer numbers, you could be talking about any quarter. With Wayfair, it's like, yep, they're continuing to lose money and they're having to spend more on advertising which is always a concern. This quarter, I mean advertising spend was about 14% of revenue. So a particularly high number. And that certainly is a concern. But what is also a concern and continues to be a concern to me. And we were just talking about this post Covid environment. What's striking about wayfair in the 11 years since it became a public company, there was only one time that they made money and that was in 2020. They managed to be profitable because of this huge Covid boom. And by 2022 they were back at it, losing a billion dollars in the year. And since coming public have lost well over 4 billion in total. And so this experiment of can we make this online inexpensive delivery furniture and lots of other things. Operation work continues to be a little bit of a question mark with is this a model that in regular times can actually earn a profit?

[Fred Niklaus]

Have you ever heard of Zeno's Paradox, Dennis? Are you familiar with that?

[Dennis Scully]

I am familiar, Fred.

[Fred Niklaus]

Okay, so just for listeners who are not familiar with this, it's the idea that in order to get from point A to point B, you have to travel half of that distance. And then to get to the next step, you have to travel half of that distance. So you'll never really arrive at the next place because you always have to arrive at the halfway point. I feel like that applies to Wayfair. It's always going to become profitable. They're making steps, they're halfway to profitability. They're halfway to halfway to profitability. And every quarter, as you said, we could run the same article, we could have the same discussion. And it kind of feels the same now. Now in the company's defense, they are doing things. They opened a store. It appears to be working. The CEO Niraj Shah was talking about how they saw this growth in the state of Illinois, where it's located. That is one lever they can pull. They also have cut costs a lot. I think they made the same amount of revenue in 24 and 23. They just spent a lot less money to get there. They're doing the right things. You're so right to point out that yes, they made money during a globe shattering pandemic, but can they make money during relatively calm waters? I'm sure the defense that they say is, you know, housing is at a 30 year low, blah, blah, blah. The big test is once housing gets back to normal, can Wayfair make money? And if they can't, I think that is really bad news for this company.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I agree, but I mean we have an awful lot of companies that continue to say, oh, you just wait till housing comes back. We're going to be doing so well. But again, this company was operating during many years when housing was very strong and they still weren't making money. So I don't want to be a downer on this company. And you're absolutely right. They are doing things. And Paragould's going to open a store and so we'll see what that's like. And it certainly sounds as if the one in Chicago seems to be getting a good response. But you could feel the vibe on this call from a lot of analysts was really, really, you know, I mean, you could tell the patience is wearing a little thin. But we'll see what happens next quarter. My guess is we're having the same conversation.

[Fred Niklaus]

Brett, let's just copy paste this episode of the podcast. We'll be in good shape.

[Dennis Scully]

Exactly. Let's move on to the big ones.

[Fred Niklaus]

Home Depot and Lowe's, the home improvement twins. Both companies reported reasonably good numbers this quarter. Home Depot slightly beat expectations with quarterly sales of almost 40 billion. Just almost 40 billion. But it was extremely cautious in its guidance for 2025. Lowe's also beat expectations slightly with $1.1 billion in sales, but it too was extremely timid about 2025. Very similar takes from both of these companies.

[Dennis Scully]

Remarkably similar takes. You and I were joking before the show that perhaps they shared their talking points because they were almost identical. Oh, that darn housing market. But I mean, again, as we were saying earlier, very clear that neither of these companies that have an incredible read on the whole country and the hous and how everything is going, neither company was predicting that mortgage rates were coming down in any meaningful way. Neither company was looking for any meaningful recovery in housing. And everybody was just doing what they could to control costs and get through what they see as another challenging year.

[Fred Niklaus]

Not that many interior designers are going to Home Depot every day, necessarily, but it's an important company to keep an eye on because so it's really a bellwether for the rest of the furniture and furnishings market because the thinking goes, you renovate your house six months later, nine months later, you're going to need furniture for it. That's why all these other companies are looking what's going on with Home Depot, what's going on with Lowe's, and they're predicting that in six to nine months, they're going to see the same thing happen there with their own companies. This is definitely, I don't know if it's a downer Exactly. Because both companies did relatively well and seem to be eking out a profit amid difficult circumstances. But yeah, they were very tepid in their outlook for 2025. You can tell the CEO of Home Depot doesn't want to get into political waters, which is probably wise. But we talked about tariffs. Well, we think we can figure it out. There was even a conversation about how immigration crackdowns might affect Home Depot because of course immigrants make up a large part of the workforce for construction crews. And there's the thought that if there's a huge sweep of immigrants and there's a lot of deportation, then that's going to change the picture for a company like Home Depot. He was very reserved and he tried to say, well, we don't really know, but clearly that is something that is on their mind. So there's a lot of uncertainty in 2025 and I think they're playing their cards close to their chest, as they should.

[Dennis Scully]

Very much so. And I think I was trying to find something that either company said that was slightly different than the other. The only thing I could really hang my hat on was Home Depot talked about seeing signs as we've talked about on the show. Okay, so if everyone's going to be staying in their then maybe they're going to start to draw down these home equity lines of credit and they're going to be doing more renovating. Home Depot said, yeah, we've seen a little bit of that, but really nothing dramatic. And Lowe's pretty much said, no, we're not seeing any signs of that at all. So I mean the hope that some in the industry have that recognizing people are going to stay in their homes because of those sub 3% mortgages and they're going to draw down the value of their home equity. We're not seeing even signs of that yet.

[Fred Niklaus]

I think we just need more stability. That's what we need. We need a couple months where there isn't giant news stories about is the economy going to soar or collapse and then I think people will get comfortable taking out a home equity loan and then we can talk about Shiplap.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, exactly. I think that's what we need is a little less noise. And that's just around the corner, I'm sure. Next up we're going to talk about a new software tool for multi line showrooms that you wrote about, Fred.

[Fred Niklaus]

I did. A few years ago, two Atlanta showrooms, Ainsworth Noah and Jerry Pear, teamed up to build a new program to run their businesses called to the trade Tech now they're offering it up for sale to other multilines. Now tech ventures and multi line showrooms do not usually go in the same sentence. So I was really tickled pink to be able to write this story to.

[Dennis Scully]

Talk to these guys about it. It's not usually an industry that's known for its tech innovations, Fred. Still a lot of fax machines in operation in some of these showrooms. So I was delighted to read about this new exciting platform. But heaven knows the platforms that I'm sure they were running before could use some update.

[Fred Niklaus]

Yeah, exactly. Well it's interesting and I like to get into the nerdy weeds and talk about design management software and which company will win the project management software war is now. Now it's a whole other level of nerdy to talk about the multi line showroom software wars. And so this was definitely catnip for me. But I think just to sort of roll it back. I think people talk about how technology in the design industry is so behind, almost like it's a choice or something. Like people who work for multi line showrooms or interior designers are like I don't want the latest technology. I don't really think that's the reason behind it. I think if there was a better tool that was the right price, people, people would go for it. Just because it's a little bit of a conservative industry in terms of culturally, I still think people would opt for a cool new tool if it came along. I think the problem is that it's like multi line showrooms in particular, they're very complicated businesses. It's not like a normal retail shop. It's like you're holding a very small amount of inventory, you're doing a lot of pass through, you're getting complicated quotes. It's a very intricate kind of business. So you can't just use normal retail software at the same time. It's also a very small business business. It's not like Google is going to invest 10 billion to disrupt the multi line showroom software space. So you have this sort of venn diagram of complicated problems but you could not make a lot of money solving them. There's not a lot of tech companies that are trying to build software for this world. Yeah, they were using a piece of software that was kind of outdated and the company went out of business to sort of wound down operations. And so what do you do in that situation? They decided we're going to make our own software. What did you think? As someone who has worked in the showroom environment, what do you think of that?

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I mean, to your point, having worked in many different showrooms that usually are running on some custom software that they've developed themselves or something that they've had to share with others, or they built from the order writing process backwards and just felt antiquated in every way possible. Your point about how complicated the Multi Line showroom is, business is, and both Ainsworth and Jerry Pear have so many different lines that they have to try and keep track of and ultimately calculate the payments to all those partners. Every time a sale is made, it might be five or ten different lines that are represented. So, I mean, it's an enormously complicated set of data that they have to capture. And then they have to try and figure out how to make the ordering process easier. You talk to so many designers and they tell you how challenging it is or how much information you still have to provide, or often you're faxing your payment form back to a showroom or something. So, I mean, I was delighted to hear that they've got Stripe. I was delighted to hear that. Listen, it's exciting to think that they've been able to update a lot of this software. It's very challenging. It's why people refer to our industry often as a little bit behind in technology. And listen, years ago people didn't have the resources to invest in huge software programs and a lot of companies could have spent more money on this and they chose to spend it on other things. And I get it, but I'm excited for these two showrooms to have a new tool that I'm sure that they have desperately wanted for a long time.

[Fred Niklaus]

Yeah. And I mean, I think we should say there's trickle down effects of this too, because if the Multi Line showroom has like a confusing cobbled together software package, that means details around orders fall through the cracks, designers are upset, and it just turns into a whole kerfuffle. Whereas if you have a software package that runs relatively well, there's this game of telephone that happens between the client, the designer, the showroom, and the vendor gets a little bit more clear. You know what I mean? So much in the industry goes wrong because of disconnections in that game of telephone. So anything that makes it easier I think is good. I think the wrinkle here is that they developed it themselves working with a company that develops technology. They spent a lot of money on it, clearly more money than they said they wanted to. Now they're trying to license it out to other showrooms. Of course, I got a little Bit of a demo of it. I don't run a multi line showroom, so I couldn't accurately critique it, but it seemed very comprehensive and a good tool to have. But it's expensive. They're asking people to pay, I think it was $40,000 to buy the initial software and then there's a monthly maintenance fee which is I think a couple thousand. That may be well beyond what a small regional multiline can afford. Not so much for maybe a bigger national chain and there may be some, some bigger regionals that could afford it. But it's not like I think people just think software like, oh, it's a couple hundred bucks a month, no big deal. This is a hefty price tag, so I'm interested to see if they'll get any takers on it.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, as you say, that is a hefty price tag. And I think a lot of showrooms and a lot of companies in general are always very nervous around replacing their internal software. And what is that going to mean?

[Fred Niklaus]

They won't get rid of that fax machine. A big order could come through. You never know. Exactly.

[Dennis Scully]

Exactly. You laugh, but those fax machines are running in many a showroom I've visited. But so I'm excited, as I say, for them to have some new technology and maybe when others see it, they will want to help share the cost in all of this and subscribe. But it's always a nerve wracking process when you're updating your software or you're making some big internal change and, and usually it creates a lot more problems than it answers, at least in the beginning. I hope that won't be the case for this and my best to, to the trade tech. And I'll have to go to Atlanta and visit and hear how it's all going. All right, let's jump into real estate listings. This week, design writer David Michon took aim at the blandness of Zillow in the online journal Untapped, writing that real estate listings have messed up the average POV on what home design and decor should be. And as I got into this article, Fred, I found myself agreeing 100%. What about you?

[Fred Niklaus]

Yeah, what's not to agree with here? David Michon, of course, the substacker behind For Scale, one of my favorite newsletters, and he's bang on with this analysis. He talks a lot about how this is a familiar critique, but like Zillow, which has become, as he points out, a national pastime for a lot of Americans, really trains. First of all, people who were staging these homes think, okay, it has to appeal to the widest amount possible. So I'm going to make the decor the blandest amount possible. And then as you're surfing through all these homes, everything is just so, so samey. And maybe that kind of sameness rubs off on the average consumer and thinks, okay, well, this is what a sellable home looks like. I'll make my home look like that. And we get a wash of sameyness that descends over the country like a, a bland fog. So David's a really funny writer and I love this take. I think it's accurate, I think it's interesting and not much to disagree with. What about you?

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and I think to David's point, where is the passion? Where is the poetry? Where is getting people excited about the new life that they are going to enjoy in this home? David writes about the intimacy of, of inhabiting a space. And stop talking about this as your primary asset and talk about it more about the way that so many designers do, where they get their client excited about the new life you're going to be able to lead when we transform your home. And that's what I think is missing from real estate listings. As I read through this, I thought, thought this is a place for magazine editors who are looking to make a change.

[Fred Niklaus]

All those unemployed magazine editors.

[Dennis Scully]

Yes, exactly. Have them launch. And interestingly, he referenced a few, one of which had been a guest on the show in the past. The co founders behind Modern House. And we've had Matt Gebert on the show. Matt, who used to work for World of Interiors and his partner used to work for Wallpaper. So they came from editorial and they write great copy and use great photography and really create a story around it. So I think there is a lot to be said for that.

[Fred Niklaus]

Yeah, I think there's definitely an opportunity here. There was a guy I had coffee with a couple months ago named Jason Saft, who's a stager here in New York and he specializes in doing sort of very design and decor oriented staging. I think there's like, it is a little bit of a niche because you have to have, you have to have the person who has the budget for it and you have to feel like that's what's going to appeal to a home buyer. I'm sympathetic to home stagers on some level because they obviously want to sell the home and if this works, that's why they do it. But I do think there's a market for this and I think it needs to be filled And David is, of course, hilariously right in pointing out the blandness of it all. Another thing that jumped out to me from this article is just interesting. We think about algorithmic culture and what it does to taste, and. And it's funny because in politics, I feel like what really does well online is outrage and excitement. And isn't this horrible? And that kind of pushes people to the extremes because it's like you're forced to take a side, and taking a side does well online. And so that pushes people to the extreme. But when it comes to Zillow and taste, it actually just condenses people to the middle. It does the exact opposite. It centers people around the most bland, unoffensive thing possible. So. So it's just another interesting example of how algorithms have shifted our taste and culture over the past decade or so. So I thought was very smart of David to point it out and very interesting to see if other people like the modern house or like Jason Saftor, like this woman, Sam Aronson. I think her name is in La Harneson. Yeah, Arneson. If other people like that pop up and sort of fill this clear need in Vibey home listings, I'm here for it.

[Dennis Scully]

I'm here for it as well. And I think clearly it's a huge opportunity. As David points out, Zillow is such a highly trafficked site that clearly America is spending its time looking at houses. So, I mean, there does seem like there's lots of opportunity for. For more people to come into this space, and I hope after reading this, they will. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including advice from Sean Lowe about client meetings and a list of March's Can't Miss design events. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break. We're taking a quick break from the show to hear about Hector Finch, who's a proud sponsor of this year's Kips Bay Decorator show house in Palm Beach. Visit February 22 through March 16 to see how the company collaborated with designers throughout the house to install lighting products in seven rooms. And while you're in town, be sure to also visit the new Benjamin Peterson showroom at 1200 North Dixie highway in Lake Worth, where you can see a wide range of fixtures from the Hector Finch collection. See the collection [e-mail] and buy tickets to visit the show house@kiPSBay decoratorshowhouse.org this season, Jaipur Living introduces their New cozy collection of textured rugs bring warmth and style into the home with high, low depths, rich materials and designs that never go out of style. Whether you're curling up with hot cocoa or sprucing up your space for spring. Start with the rug. Start with Jaipur Living. Visit JaipurLiving.com to join their trade program and become part of the Jaipur Living family. And now, now back to the show. And we're back. I'm joined now by influential lighting designer Lindsay Adelman. Lindsay, thank you so much for making the time to join me.

[Lindsay Adelman]

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I'm so glad to have you back on the show. I went back over the weekend, listened to the conversation we had a few years ago, and interestingly, you were welcoming at the time. What felt like a little bit of a slowdown in the industry. And I felt like, yes, this is a woman who would love for things to slow down and find a little time to think more subsequently, in recent weeks, you've sent out a communication saying that you're making some changes into how you're thinking about the business and the studio. Tell me a little bit about what's on your mind.

[Lindsay Adelman]

Mind, yeah, it was a very thoughtful decision that I sort of agonized about for a year. So what was happening was really I kept seeing, you know, in business there's a lot of theories, approaches, philosophies that is all focused around growth and constant growth and plans for growth and numbers to hit and strategies. And I really was, you know, sort of like, why? Like, where are we going? Where's everybody going? Like, if we're bigger, is that better? You know, I think it's a little dangerous to put pressure on growth because it leaves you so vulnerable to making decisions that aren't necessarily based in the same place of why I founded the studio and what drives me and really paying attention to the work I put out there. So this decision of really intentionally kind of downsizing the size of my company and how to do that. And so, yeah, it gave me a lot of thought as to these collections that are well established and have really rational assembly systems to take that out of house. And it took a while to find the right partner to do that and I'm so happy with who we've connected with to do that. So. So now what I intended to do is coming true, which is really clearing space for a lot of the work I missed doing.

[Dennis Scully]

I'm curious the hands on nature of what you do. When I watch some of the videos on your site and I See the look on your face when you're actually blowing or creating or even just hanging something that you're excited to see how it's finally going to look. I was worried was this growth that we're talking about pulling you away from those moments.

[Lindsay Adelman]

The structure's changed a little bit. And so we have two locations, one in Manhattan, one in Brooklyn, which we've had for a very long time. But we've really activated the Brooklyn space more for a certain type of production work as we enter this two year transition with this other company to take on a lot of the production. And so in the Manhattan studio, we're really setting it up to support this more sculptural work, which I happen to be a highly sensitive person, for better or for worse. And so the environment makes a big difference to me. And the number of people in it really affects how I work. I tend to have a hard time with just lots of energy from other people around me. And so kind of creating a more intimate, intimate environment has helped me develop new work and my process, like when I drop in deep to try new things, there has to be space for a period of time where you're creating things that are, you could say failures, but you could, but they're important, critical steps along the way. And that can be my private practice that I, I believe in. Sometimes when there's a lot of people or a lot of different types of activities, like more kind of officey activities or more sort of like production activities, it can feel a bit out of sync or tone deaf to get into that mode. That's sort of where you lose the sense, a sense of time. And it's really private and intimate and I can't control it, you know, like the process for me is one of, you know, it's sort of mysterious, curious to me of like where ideas come from and, and why I feel so compelled to realize them. And I trust that space. I've cultivated that space for 20 years. And it's sort of. I know it and it's, it seems very much. It's the place like I do everything else to get back to that space essentially because it's such a release and relief, I guess. And so that's what I am supporting. It's interesting because sometimes it feels like maybe self involved and then other times it feels more like an offering or service. Like sometimes it feels like I'm just kind of like doing what was handed to me to pass along. It's. It probably sounds a little bit out there, but. No, but that's that's the. That's what's driving me now.

[Dennis Scully]

So earlier when you talked about how you agonized over this decision or how to implement it for. For a year, what was the agony? What were you struggling with to let you return to this studio model that you were longing for?

[Lindsay Adelman]

Yeah, having this sometimes annoying quality of being highly sensitive. I was, I would say, terrified of sharing news that might not be what everybody wants to hear and just painfully aware of sort of disrupting an employee's career path, you know, flow expectations. And. And I realize now that can get very overblown in my head because it was not terrifying when it came down to it. And the rise of support around me was touching and really fueled the kind of power and momentum of this change in super surprising ways. And so it was a great lesson for me, I guess. I think that's what was agonizing is I felt like. Like I would be causing a disruption and. And potentially just disappointment in others. And so I've learned so much from that. To not put things off. If your gut is just start. You know, it starts to whisper and then it starts to yell, and you're. You. You gotta follow it. And. And I try to analyze it and not go, like, 10 steps ahead. Just really, like. Like, just listen to it. And I. I think probably most people, like creative people or people that operate in this way of, like, very similar experiences. Yeah, it's like joy. I mean, that's it. It's like my utopia, like, to create. To walk in and just, like, have art supplies there. Like, that's it. And so when we. I'm connecting it back to, like, business growth, like, that's. My drivers are just different. Like, if I want to walk into a room with, like, shelves of fresh art supplies, it's just a different driver. You know what I mean?

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah.

[Lindsay Adelman]

And I think it's because. Well, it sounds so simple. But, you know, I think ultimately, like, just as humans, especially right now, like, we're supposed to feel good, you know, so when you can find, like, when you can figure out the stuff that actually brings out the best in you or makes you feel like you're just in the zone in the right place at the right time, and that's, like, the best we can do, really, because it ends up benefiting more than we can see, it ripples out and, you know, the right people and things are sort of drawn to you. And I think it's connected to, like, there's more you can offer the world too, really, if you're kind of doing what you're most into. It kind of works out that way, I think.

[Dennis Scully]

Well. And you've had the benefit of this incredible success. You've had celebrities adoring your product. I was just recently with Sheila Bridges at the New York School of Interior Design. We were looking at your light fixture in the home of the former Vice president Kamala Harris, and she was so thrilled that your lighting could be included in that project.

[Lindsay Adelman]

Me too. What an honor. Yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

So you, unlike many who toil in obscurity, found success.

[Lindsay Adelman]

Yes.

[Dennis Scully]

And as success often does, perhaps it swept you away a bit. Right to the point that you may have woken up like David Byrne in his big white suit saying, this is not my beautiful house. This is not my beautiful wife. Wait a second. You woke up and realized how far removed you had gotten from, as you were saying, what really excites you about what you do?

[Lindsay Adelman]

Yeah, that's a lot of it. And what I really appreciate is the stability and solid foundation that the company has provided me and my employees. And without that, that stability, I wouldn't be able to take a risk with more sculptural, personal work. I wouldn't be able to. It's kind of afforded me to make mistakes, to make work that's pretty ugly for a minute until it turns into something that's, like, better. And. And that in the body of work, like the collections that I've made, need for our amazing client base is still something that I believe in so much. Like, anything that I don't believe in has been edited out, you know, and so if they were just like, I was into it for a minute and then not for, like, ever, but that's ideal. It's almost like two divisions, you could say. And. Yeah, and it takes. Takes a minute to figure that out and set it up.

[Dennis Scully]

So take me through the mechanics. It sounds as though you've mapped out sort of a two year plan for this transition. What needs to happen? It sounds like you're passing off some of the production to now a trusted partner.

[Lindsay Adelman]

Yeah. Essentially, it's a very rational plan where we have just mapped out one collection at a time. And so my team is able to visit them and train their assembly team, and their team is able to visit us, take notes on how each builder sets up their bench and what tools we have and the order of events and, you know, ergonomic considerations. Like, we actually, like, hang all of the work from tracks in the ceiling when we build them. We don't build, like, on a surface. And so it's exactly as it would be in a space. And the place that we're working with, unlike us who work with a whole network of suppliers outside of studio who do machining, finishing, etc, there's like a hundred of them that we work with. And this place, they do it all under one roof. So you know, you can like envision they're just receiving like bar stock of raw brass and from that that they, they then finished like a wired chandelier that goes out the door. It's really different. So they do all the processes in house.

[Dennis Scully]

And the, the end result that you're hoping for is, is what?

[Lindsay Adelman]

Well first is the integrity of the work that it's built in the same original spirit, you could say the same level of craftsmanship and care, quality checking and yeah, and the company that we work with has the same values and priorities that we do and that was really important and why it took a while to find the right place and to really kind of not maintain a whole workforce that's handling that in house, which you can imagine all of the details, managing all of the different supplies, all the different fixtures, each one has a different assembly process and kit of parts. All of the wrapping, the shipping, the labeling alone is huge. And so we're not going to be doing that in house. Like it's big, it's a big difference. It's a really different model of a company. And you know, frankly a lot of companies start out with this good idea. I didn't but that's cool. No, I think, I think the benefits of us doing it in house for so many years is it's this opportunity to continue to evolve things. So like, you know, the team is really smart, really creative. So if they're finding a way that that's a better way to build something or hang something or balance something, their ideas make it through to inform and shape how it's made. And that's been so major. So like at this point of, of now transitioning it to another place, it's a well oiled machine and system and that. Yeah, I think everything happens at the right time. Right.

[Dennis Scully]

Well and I mean on the one hand I can imagine how nervous one would be trying to pass along this painstakingly precise process that you've built over all these years. But at the same time I can imagine this huge sense of relief of thinking one day someone else is going to be managing, managing all of that. Right?

[Lindsay Adelman]

Yeah, yeah, it's a nice feeling. And, but, but truthfully the, the management team underneath me, they're the specialists. And, and everything is still made in America. So it's, it's just a plane ride away. And it's been, I wouldn't say nerve wracking because we're doing this so mindfully and slowly. Like we're leaving ourselves a lot of space for attention to detail. And my team is really dedicated to this. So. Yeah, I'm really just happy that I figured out a way to support the work living on and that I didn't. You know, there's other tempting concepts like selling the business and, and did you.

[Dennis Scully]

Entertain that at all that thought? Did that thought.

[Lindsay Adelman]

I entertained it. It. I entertained it. And, and there was a good case built for it. And I unfortunately kept listening to my annoying gut instinct that this was not for me, that that wasn't the root for me. Without getting into specific. Let's just say that it was a really attractive, viable option.

[Dennis Scully]

Okay.

[Lindsay Adelman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dennis Scully]

Okay. Okay. So it was there. That was a choice and a road, a path not taken.

[Lindsay Adelman]

Yeah. It ended up being a really personal decision and again, I received a lot of support. It feels really. Even though change is hard, it feels natural.

[Dennis Scully]

So you're also. I noticed on an Instagram hiatus, I don't know if it is related to where you are in your head or what's going on, but tell me about, about that.

[Lindsay Adelman]

Yeah, I think it is related. I was feeling a bit put off about some aspects of what Instagram has become in terms of quite commercial, and I wasn't liking how the algorithms and the sort of forces behind it were intervening with what I wanted to see. I kept, you know, seeing things pop up that I didn't, I didn't choose right to pop up. It wasn't like that at the beginning. And then I was also sort of seeing, I was seeing a bit of pressure. And I think, like, all of the cliches are true in terms of people, you know, showing a certain part of their life. And it's not that. It's of course not the full story. Right. And then I, I found myself sort of, of falling into that as well. And. And I just thought, I'm not sure I want to do that. And I, I just noticed it was bringing this sort of like low level of like anxiety or distraction to me and a bit of changing my mindset. So if like the minute before I was in feeling pretty good about my situation and then I would go on there and like five minutes later I'm like, well, I'm all of a sudden now thinking about stuff that I missed or you know, whatever. Like, oh, wish I was people I wish I were still connected to. Or like, things I kind of wished I was a part of or like, oh God, I should be making more of an effort. Look at that person's really going for. And it's like pretty fantastic. Like, maybe, you know, and I was like, wait, five minutes to go. I, I, I was good. Like, I didn't really. And I, and I just like a certain phase of life that I'm in right now, I just thought, I'm not sure this is really working for us. And then my business doesn't operate through Instagram. You know, we, that's not really how we, we sell things. We sell things mainly through a lot of other modes. And, and my current thinking, this could change in an hour. But, but since we're here, my current thinking is quite interesting to put a type of communication out there that talks about how to connect with us, how to see us, and to make it worth their time to come, you know, because we haven't spilled the beans. They're not getting a preview of everything. And, and to make the IRL experience a bit more special, like, so whether it's at studio or whether it's at an exhibition or an installation somewhere or a talk somewhere or whatever it is, what if we kind of embrace the opposite of Instagram where it's a bit again, like embracing mystery, embracing a certain like, elusiveness, you could say, and, and really like leaning into delivering when people do show up and like an element of, yeah, surprise at the end, unexpected. And then like making an effort. Like the people that I have seen on there that I miss or don't see enough or want to be reconnected to, or I can do that, you know, like, I can see them, I can hang out. Like, I can, I can go over, I can do studio visits, I can invite people to my studio. Like, it sounds so basic, but it's just, I'm just really craving, yeah, I'm just really craving that. And, and also Instagram, if you do it well, it's pretty time consuming. You know, you really need support. People that do it well. It's an incredible, like, editorial experience. And I just thought, let me just take a second to be thoughtful about how I might want to approach this again. You know, I will mention that another factor was, you know, there's been a number of highly distressing things in the news. And one topic was this, what was feeling like a battle for our attention and that our attention is currency. And it really affected me and I thought I want to be careful not only with my own attention, but with others attention and what I'm doing with it. And sort of a big question, but one that I am reflecting on.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah. So it seems like a time out of which you really don't know what's going to come. Right. I mean, you may have thoughts and you may. Perhaps there are creative ideas that are racing through your mind as we speak.

[Lindsay Adelman]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, at the moment, in terms of my work, I'm in deep with preparing for a show at the Future Perfect, which will be in May. Yes. And that will be the first body of work to emerge out of this new phase. And it does look distinctly different, even though there are threads throughout all of my work and I think narratives that really run. Run through much of it. But I'm really excited to put this work out in the world and it did come out of this place that is a bit more elusive or the drivers are different than designing a collection that's meant to be. Yeah. Like spec'd in a certain way or reach a wide audience. This work. Work, I think, is a different way of designing. And it's really coming. It's, you could say like a craving or like an urge or something like that in me. And it's been. I'm just like really going for it, you know, like, I'm putting a lot of energy into it. And so that's pretty soon. So that's coming up in May, so I'm. I'm deep into that.

[Dennis Scully]

So how does that fit in with what you're. What you're working on, with the transformation of the story studio?

[Lindsay Adelman]

Yeah, it fits in because it's the realization of what I've made space for, and it's the first body of work and I expect it'll keep building upon itself. Yeah. So it's pretty quick. Really.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah. Okay. Okay. So things have already come from this process, in other words, 100%. Okay, well, that's exciting. So. So Future Perfect in.

[Lindsay Adelman]

Yes, in New York.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah, in New York. Okay. Well, I'm excited to come and see that, and we look forward to seeing that. And I'm so delighted to get to talk with you and I really appreciate you making this time bright and early this morning.

[Lindsay Adelman]

Me too. Thanks, Dennis. It's been really fun.

[Dennis Scully]

And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred?

[Fred Niklaus]

Well, earlier you were Talking about how Lowe's and Home Depot are a little bit skeptical around the renovation boom. I, I actually think there are signs out there in the marketplace of this uptake in renovations and one of them is all these brands really going in on, on developing a cabinetry line. We got the news just the other day that floor and decor, a company we don't talk about that much, but a really, a giant company on a tear, just introduced cabinetry line. And you know, I do think companies like Isla Porter, that sort of AI powered cabinetry design company, are rushing to fill this, you know, this need, you know, between the super budget kitchen cabinetry and the super high end kitchens. And I think that is really an area for growth. You know, I was just in Ikea a couple of weeks ago and I noticed their like cabinetry and closet sections are like three times bigger than they used to be. So I do think there are little, you know, drips and drabs of people pivoting to be more about renovations. And I think filling that white space and cabinetry I think has been there for a long time and I think it's slowly getting filled bit by bit. So excited to see what people do in that space. What caught your eye this week, Dennis?

[Dennis Scully]

A couple things caught my eye. One, yesterday I had the pleasure of being in the new Schumacher space at the New York Design Center. Yes, indeed, once again, another company coming to 200 licks. And it was, and it was a sharp looking space. They partnered with designer David Fraser and created a chic space with furniture and art and fabric and they wanted to show some things that people might not realize are in their line or that people might have forgotten about. And I think they did a beautiful job of pulling it all together. Cool.

[Fred Niklaus]

Can't wait to visit.

[Dennis Scully]

It's, it's ready for visitors now, so, so pop in. The other thing that caught my eye, interestingly enough, we've been talking a lot recently and talked about it in the conversation with Stephanie about the rising cost in our space and, and how dramatically some of the costs have gone up. The designer Brian Paquette shared a story this past weekend on his Instagram where he talks about how every year he goes through this exercise of pricing one of his previous projects to see how the market is looking right now. And he took a project from 2023 which was a furnishings only project for a 3200 square foot home and he said honestly, it wasn't even our super high end. And the cost at the time back in 23 was $378,000. And he went through the exercise of pricing out what that would be today, and today it would cost 502,000. So that's about a 30% jump in, in price in just crazy. Not even two years, honestly. And he said, and that doesn't, we're not even raising, raising our prices. It's just the price of all those materials. So, I mean, it just shows how dramatically prices have risen in our space, far more than what we talk about with the consumer price index or some of the numbers that we talk about on the show. Pretty dramatic.

[Fred Niklaus]

Yeah, it's wild. Those, those numbers. Just when you see it in real dollar numbers and it's taken out of the, oh, prices are going up. But it's like you really see the dollar sign in front of it. It's, it's absolutely wild. And I know everybody, everyone out there is dealing with it, so we don't have the solution, but we will continue to report on it.

[Dennis Scully]

No, it continues to be a challenge for the industry and one I'm sure we'll be talking about a lot more. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us [e-mail] if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us at potential [e-mail] this episode was produced by Fred Nicholas and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.