← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: The fight for tech-free homes. Plus: A 17-year client lawsuit
00:53:51
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, journalist Rachel Kurzius of The Washington Post joins the show to talk about the downside of viral sofas, and to tell the story of a 17-year client lawsuit.
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- [00:08]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be speaking to journalist Rachel Curzias of the Washington Post about a viral sofa gone wrong. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including a surprise acquisition, Trump's housing moves, and why clients are craving an analog lifestyle at home. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Home executive editor Fred Nicholas. Hi, Fred.
- [00:35]
B
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:36]
A
Oh, great. How you doing?
- [00:38]
B
I'm doing fine. You know, I feel bad for you. You've got a first record, your podcast. It can't all be glamorous podcast recording. Every now and then you gotta be at yards and go to Paris for a week and then London. You know, it's tough out there. It's tough out there.
- [00:55]
A
Knew this was coming. Yes. Yes, that's right. In mere hours, I'm leaving for the airport and on my way to Paris and London. Fred, someone's gotta do. Darn it.
- [01:05]
B
But I have heard it's cold, so there's that.
- [01:07]
A
Yes, I'll point to that. It's cold, rainy.
- [01:09]
B
Okay.
- [01:10]
A
No FOMO necessary. Okay.
- [01:12]
B
While I'm seething with jealousy, I'll just look at the Paris weather every now and then. Yes, exactly. But yeah, in all seriousness, bon voyage. And next week you'll actually be doing the Thursday show. Maybe not live, but you'll be recording it in London with Caitlin Peterson, our editor in chief. So that should be a fun episode next week. So stay tuned for that. In the meantime, let's look back on Monday's episode, A conversation with Michael Diaz Griffith, the CEO of the Design Leadership Network, and a lot more. What'd you make of the conversation?
- [01:39]
A
It was a wide ranging conversation, as you know, and one I was really happy to get into. We touched on AI. We touched on some of the social media performance issues that we've been talking about, but also a little bit about showing up in the world in perhaps a more authentic way and what that means. There was a lot in there. What did you make?
- [02:02]
B
Yeah, it was great. I think initially we had just been thinking we'd have kind of like a fun little New Year's resolution chat with Michael. And then it kind of got. It got serious. And I like that he's the head of this organization. I think he has every reason in the world to be very political and everything's great, but he's not afraid to kind of get into some interesting topics like class in the design industry. I thought that was interesting. And he also made the point which I think we sometimes forget about on this show, which is that while design is a business, it's a creative pursuit first. And I think that sometimes you and I get wrapped up in our mortgage rates and acquisitions and stuff and sort of forget that. That's why people really do what they do. And it was a nice reminder of that, but a wide ranging and very deep conversation with Michael, to be sure.
- [02:45]
A
Yeah. From an important voice in the industry to hear from. A lot of people reached out to me and said that they really appreciated getting to hear from him in this way. So I was glad that the New Year's resolution conversation bloomed and blossomed into so much more that we moved it to Monday. So I thank Michael for that conversation and I hope people will enjoy it. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by laloy. Behind every laloy rug is a web of people woven together. What began as a small family business in Dallas, Texas in 2004 has grown to a family of over 750 employees who help bring their rugs, pillows and wall art to life. Their work is inspired by the quiet conviction that things made well have the power to provide comfort for generations. Learn more@leloyrugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com and follow laloyloyrugs on Instagram and TikTok. First up, Fred, the DFA gets acquired.
- [04:05]
B
I know, an acquisition. To kick things off last week, the leaders of Design officially announced its purchase of the Decorative Furnishings Association. What'd you make of this news, Dennis?
- [04:15]
A
This was out of the blue, Fred. I will confess that the DFA had gone off my radar a little bit, despite my longtime attendance at many a DFA meeting and my relationship with many members of the dfa. I hadn't heard this organization spoken about in a while. So in a way, I was delighted to hear that perhaps some new life is being breathed into it.
- [04:41]
B
Yeah, this one wasn't on my bingo card either. Should we sort of break down what these two things are? You know, you've been a member of the dfa, so maybe you should kind of walk us through what it was and what it became.
- [04:53]
A
Well, I mean, it's an organization that's been around for a long time. If memory serves, it was established in 1934, and for many, many years this was a powerful group of industry executives, Carrie Kravit and Dan Cahoon of Jerry Pear, who We spoke with recently a lot of the big design centered leaders all getting together to talk about the big topics facing the to the trade fabric and ultimately furniture brands as well. And was an organization that was trying to figure out where the industry was going.
- [05:34]
B
Yeah. And I mean, I think first of all, I like the glamour and intrigue you gave it there. Sort of a powerful, secretive group that controls everything. But yeah, no, I mean, I think especially during kind of the Internet years when the industry was coming online, it was definitely very crucial organization trying to bring together everyone, trying to figure how are we going to deal with this radical new transparency that the Internet brings. In recent years, it's kind of fallen apart, kind of fallen into a kind of dormancy. I feel like the last I really heard of them doing anything was maybe pre Covid or maybe in the middle of COVID but it certainly lost a lot of its impact, a lot of its membership and has kind of functionally been off for the past few years. And now Keith Granite, the founder of the Leaders of Design, is I guess purchasing it or acquiring it or however you want to frame it. I'm sure it wasn't a big financial transaction and trying to relaunch it as kind of a sister organization to the Leaders of Design. I guess we should explain what that is as well, which is it's an industry group for designers mainly, although I think there are some brands in it as well. And it's kind of like, you know, it's like a membership group where designers and people go on one big trip every year and there's education throughout the year. It's kind of like a networking association. So this kind of will bring together a group that's mostly for designers and one that's mostly for brands. It's interesting though, because as I said, the DFA has been sort of defunct.
- [06:53]
A
Yeah. I mean, and it'll be interesting to see what Keith Granite, as you say, of Leaders of Design, wants to do with this, how this fits in with the various financial interests that he has. He's invested in Studio Designer, which is a big software program that many designers use to help manage the back end of their business. And we've had him on recently to talk about an acquisition that he made in that space not too long ago. So what this chess piece piece means and where it fits in on the board for him, I'm not really sure. I think a lot of the reason to your point why the DFA just lost some of its relevance is that things were moving so rapidly and so many of the issues that the organization used to talk about, do we need to be talking to consumers more? Do we need to talk more about retail? I think some of those issues, some of those questions just kind of answer themselves over time. And so I'm not sure that there was as much impact. I think at the very end where the DFA was having the most impact was talking about pricing transparency. If you remember, that was a hot topic back when Stephan Silverman was heading up the dfa. But since that time, as I say, it just hasn't been on a lot of people's radars. But understandably, yeah, I think that's the.
- [08:16]
B
Challenge here, is you have a membership organization that existed for a long time, but people have functionally been doing without it for a few years. You have to rev up the energy in it again, which is certainly a challenge. I think one of the points that Keith made in his conversation with Caroline Burke, one of our producers and editor at Business of Home, is that he wants to start charging membership fees, but to sort of use that to pay for somebody to run the organization full time, which I think it's kind of never really had. It's always been, or largely been run by people who are doing it as their second or maybe even third job, which is part of the reason why it lost some steam. But also one of the really interesting things he wants to do is give people in the organization access to studio designer data. So not necessarily like, oh, this designer bought that, but more like, here's how you rate in comparison to all the other fabric brands. Or, you know, I don't know exactly how he wants to package the data, but that to me is a really interesting and compelling potential selling point because data is very, very hard to come by in the design industry, especially the to the trade part of the design industry. So if you can tell people like, I can give you access to insights from this software platform that I control, and if you can do it in a way that doesn't cheese off designers who use that platform, I think that's an interesting proposition and I'm really curious to, to see what he's going to do with it. I'm sure we'll have him on the show to talk about it so we can, we can learn more and then how to do this in the future.
- [09:31]
A
I look forward to. So stay tuned for a conversation with Keefe. In the meantime, lots of news coming out of the White House. President Trump has set his sights on improving housing affordability. He's testing out several strategies, including banning big Investors from buying single family homes and purchasing mortgage backed securities. And the affordability message has gotten through, I sense to President Trump, yes, it sounds like it.
- [09:58]
B
There's a lot. There's a lot going on as there always is. We try and keep the Thursday show sort of apolitical except for tariffs, but I think this is. We simply must talk about this because there's a lot going on. Shall we start with the institutional investor ban? That seems like the first big that came out. We mentioned it last week, actually, you mentioned, I should say, which is that President Trump has announced sort of a plan to try and ban institutional investors from owning single family homes. This is sort of the phenomenon of a big private equity firm like Blackstone coming in and buying the house next door to you and presumably pushing out first time home buyers from being able to purchase it. Now, this has been hyped a lot in the media because of course, the big, bad, evil private equity firms are certainly a convenient scapegoat and it is a real thing. There is this phenomenon of these companies buying homes, but it's actually not as big a deal as we and the evil media make it out to be.
- [10:55]
A
I don't know.
- [10:55]
B
What do you make of this?
- [10:56]
A
Well, as you say, what, there's another opportunity to blame private equity for something. Absolutely. Let me get on that train. I'm there. But yes, it is a very small percentage. And listen, I get it. As you and I talked about right before we came on air, this problem can feel more intense if you're in a locality like Atlanta where there is a great deal of rental property owned by big institutions. And so it can seem like a big problem. It's also just one of these things that sounds unfair. What big corporations are allowed to buy single family homes and they're competing with me and somebody else trying to buy that house. And that just doesn't seem fair. So there's just an equity feeling about all of this. And so I actually think this is a smart one to say, yeah, we're gonna get rid of those guys and go after that. How much of an impact it will really have? Truthfully, probably very little.
- [11:50]
B
Well, and there's also the question of can it even be done? I mean, I think this probably would require an act of Congress and it's not clear to me that there's the political will to focus on this necessarily. But yeah, I mean, as you said, I think if you live in one of these regions like Atlanta is like 25% of rental homes owned, you know, are owned by These big instit in pockets of the country. This could make a meaningful difference. But yeah, overall this is not going to reignite the housing market if indeed it even actually does happen. But it kind of shows that the administration's attention is on housing affordability, which I think is smart because that's what a lot of Americans are upset about at the moment. Which is the rationale behind the other big thing that President Trump announced, which is that he ordered the federal government to buy 200 billion in mortgage bonds. He sort of sent out Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to go buy a bunch of mortgage backed securities. Now mortgage backed securities, where have I, which great crash did that cause, Dennis? I forget, do you want to kind of explain, you know, the rationale behind why you would do this and what effect it might have?
- [12:51]
A
Well, I mean. Right, so as you're alluding to, the great financial crisis was caused by, by everybody buying unfortunately, some not, well, some not well financed mortgaged bonds, but back in the subprime days when they were just packaging bonds together. But the mortgage backed security market is an enormous, it's more than an $11 trillion market. So there's an awful lot of mortgage backed securities out there. And basically what the notion of buying back some of those mortgages would do is would drive down the interest rate on those bonds. And so as the bond price increases, the rate decre is the hope. But as I just outlined, it's an enormous market and $200 billion, while that sounds like a lot of money, that's actually just a very small drop in the bucket of the daily trading activity of mortgage backed securities. That said, the mere announcement that this was another initiative that the administration wanted to enact and could actually do did actually move the mortgage market and did actually lower interest rates in the mortgage market and caused a lot of the home related stocks that we talk about, the Home Depots, the Sherwin Williams, the rhs, they all moved on that announcement because again, maybe something meaningful could come from that.
- [14:21]
B
Yeah, I mean there's a couple things going on here. One is that this is much more likely to happen. It doesn't seem like it would require Congress to approve this. So it's possible that the President can just say it and it happens. And as you said, maybe it's a signal of more to come. This ideally helps knock down the mortgage rate by a couple, by a decimal point or two. But if you put a lot more money behind it, that does actually have the potential to really move the mortgage rate a little bit. And that's what everybody says is really going to unlock this housing freeze. So maybe the stocks are moving on. Optimism for the future, not so much what's happening today, but I think that's what all this news is really about, is that there is renewed intention and energy and focus on this issue coming from the administration. Certainly, it's what a lot of people really care about. I think it's a good thing for the White House to focus on it. I don't know. As we've discussed, there's some skepticism that these are the right moves, that these moves will even play out. But certainly it's a big issue.
- [15:17]
A
It is a big issue. Sadly, all of the things that have been announced so far. And there's a suggestion that there are even more announcements coming. The administration has indicated that at Davos in the coming weeks, the president will be outlining even more strategies around housing affordability and perhaps talking about mortgage portability and other opportunities for people to move with their mortgage or to pass it on to the next home buyer. But unfortunately, all of these issues don't increase the number of homes in the country, and that's the biggest issue. And when you talk to any expert in this field, they will tell you that all of these issues, nice as they may feel in the short term, are really just window dressing, and that until we create more than more than a million homes, we're not going to really be able to move the affordability needle in a meaningful way. That said, again, some of these announcements did cause meaningful moves to take place in the mortgage market. So if part of the challenge was bringing rates down, this might be a way to do it. We'll see. Moving on, we're going to talk about Charleston. Fred Yes.
- [16:28]
B
In recent months, brands like Kravitztark and Schumacher have all debuted showrooms in the Charleston Design District, which aims to become a new design hub for the the Southeast. And it's one we've talked about before. This is a Jamestown project. We had Michael Phillips, the president of Jamestown, on not that long ago. This is interesting. It just, it seems like it's really taking shape. You know, it was announced they were building it up. They were saying who's going to move in? And now we know here are the people who are moving in. What do you make of the kind of, you know, the slow development of this project?
- [16:54]
A
Dennis well, I think it's a, it's a development that's been in the works for some time. I remember visiting Urban Electric a while back and visiting the property and hearing the story of all that was to come, and now it's all coming to fruition. I think we're going to see what perhaps the future of a different kind of shopping center slash design center might look like in Charleston.
- [17:21]
B
Yeah, it's interesting. So, you know, I think, like, as we've discussed on the show before, this makes a lot of sense, right? Because, you know, the Southeast is a huge region for design. It's grown so much since during COVID and after Covid. But there's only one big design center, which is adac, of course, and that's a long drive from a lot of the big growing cities in the Southeast. And so it makes sense to have a place in Charleston that designers can go to. Not only Charleston designers, but people who are a little closer to that than they are to Atlanta. So there's a very clear economic, demographic, geographic reason to do this. I think the interesting thing is, as you said, this is not just a design building or just a design district. It's a big retail development with restaurants and shops. It's this enormous decommissioned naval base. It's a huge development, and the design district is part of it. It's a significant part of it, but it's not the whole thing. So, as you said, this is really kind of the mod that Jamestown has tried to develop in Boston, where it's a combination of different kinds of businesses together with this core group of design of trade focused businesses. But it's really interesting because it's sort of a new design center kind of. But it's also not like a big building where you can only get in if you're a designer and you're. So it sort of speaks to the fact that design areas and concentrations of design businesses are still very relevant. But if you're starting from scratch, you probably wouldn't just do another D and D building. You know what I mean?
- [18:43]
A
No, exactly. And I think that's such a great point. What would you do today if you were building a center like this? And one of the things that you would be very mindful of is this just in Charleston, an incredibly pleasant place to visit. Right. So turns out lots of people are just coming there on vacation and, hey, they discover some trade brands and maybe they eat at a lovely restaurant nearby. Maybe that's part of the facility as well. And maybe there are other things nearby that are an attraction, things for them to do. So I think this is looking at what would we have in and around a space where designers might also be coming to shop. But hey, maybe consumers Homeowners as Timor Yumasaklar. So often from Schumacher refers to, hey, how can we raise our brand awareness? To those homeowners, here's an opportunity. Here's a place they might just be coming to visit and discover some nice offerings on hand. So. So I think again, this is perhaps what you would do today if you were starting over.
- [19:49]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a totally valid thesis and time will tell as to whether it plays out. I think it's interesting right now, the brands that have showrooms there are Kravitz, Stark, Schumacher, of course, Urban Electric, which was already there. A lot of these are big national brands that have a lot of showrooms all over the country. Not that they have money to throw away, but they can afford to take a risk on a new idea. I'm curious to see if the local design businesses end up parking them their showrooms in the center as well. I think that'll make it feel really robust and sort of like a only in Charleston type location. But it's certainly an interesting experiment. And as Michael Phillips was dropping several rumors or several innuendos that he certainly wouldn't mind taking over any other design centers. So maybe this is the model and it'll be interesting to see if they're successful here, if they'll try it elsewhere.
- [20:37]
A
Well, exactly. I think that Michael Phillips is coming to a design center near you. And so I think if you wanted to get a sense of what that might mean, I think this Charleston project will give you good insight into, hey, here are some things that he's tried in other markets. The Boston Design center we've talked about in the past. It's very much a mixed use space. And I think that that too is an important part of just the economic viability of all of this. And I think the D and D building and some of the other spaces that are struggling at the moment could benefit from some new energy and perhaps some new kinds of tenants being brought in. There's plenty of opportunity for new tenants in many of those buildings. So it's one to keep an eye on. And I think we're gonna be talking a lot more about that space and Jamestown and Michael Phillips in the coming year. So look for that. In the meantime, we're gonna move on and talk about screen free spaces. The Wall Street Journal last week explored how the growing desire to live a low tech life is leading to rooms that revolve around analog activities, people returning to their hobbies, friends, people not in front of their screens all the time. I was liking where this was going.
- [21:56]
B
Should we release the podcast on like a vinyl record format so people can kind of bring it in and put it on their Victrola screen free room?
- [22:03]
A
I think that would be great. I am all for things moving in that direction.
- [22:08]
B
Yeah. I don't know, I feel like you could have, you know, this is a great story written by the inimitable Nora Knoepflammacher, but you could have written this story pretty much any week over the past few years. I feel like this is part of a much bigger movement around trying to get tech out of our lives. We've embraced it so much, I think it's reached a saturation point and people just want to find ways to get rid of screens, whether they're on the walls or in your pocket. I mean, the biggest selling TV is the frame. And the whole premise behind the frame is it doesn't look like a screen. It's a screen that doesn't look like a screen. So I think this is a big cultural movement. They're banning them in school. They're banning phones in schools rather. So why not try and ban him at home? What'd you make of this? I know you put up something on ig. Did designers respond?
- [22:50]
A
Well, it's interesting to hear from some of the designers who said that, yes, this is an ongoing, a little bit of a struggle. Some designers suggested that the wives are much keener on these screen free zones than their husbands.
- [23:05]
B
Gender. Gender disparity.
- [23:06]
A
Exactly. And that the husbands apparently in some cases are being relegated to the outdoor spaces where they can have their screen. But I did think, even in this article there was a lot of conversation about, yes, a room where I can listen to the radio and read a book. Several designers talked about. Just banning the big screen in a bedroom has led to much better relations in many cases. So I think there's a lot to be said for having this conversation and what it can mean. I thought it was interesting that Christine Gachot in the article pointed out that so often she's getting calls from clients who are just struggling with the tech in their home. And that's another reason to low tech the home a little bit more.
- [23:54]
B
Of course. I mean, there is no love lost between interior designers and smart home technology. I think that was a shaky marriage to begin with and has only gotten worse. And I think that designers will certainly embrace the so called dumb home. I think it's really interesting because on the one hand I think this is great and I think, I think it's great to design a room that is intentionally for analog usage, come with an activity there that is specifically screen free. And I think it's great to get rid of TVs if possible, but in some ways I kind of feel like the screens we're all addicted to are the ones we carry around with us. Even if you get rid of all the TVs in the world, it's the screen in your pocket that's the one that I feel like dominates all of our attention. So until they come up with some sort of electromagnetic pulse wallpaper that just makes my smartphone turn off, I don't know. I'm dub that this will really wean us off our digital technology. But what do you think?
- [24:47]
A
Well, you know, I remember years ago when Danny Myers, I think it was Gramercy Tavern, when he first opened Gramercy Tavern. It turned out that the restaurant had a little bit of a tin roof and that many people weren't able to get good cell signal. And as a result, people weren't on their phones in the restaurant. And he loved that. And so there's a lot of discussion about can you create, to your point, spaces where the WiFi isn't activated? Can there be rooms where you can't be on your phone? And I, I think a lot of people are looking to build that out hilariously, probably bringing some high tech device necessary to actually disable the WI fi in parts of the home. But many people apparently are starting to ask for that. And I think you're right. I think it's the screen that we carry around that is the one that we're spending so many hours a week on. God, I hate getting that report every week that tells me how many hours I've been on my darn phone. But I think that people are really looking for ways almost to be forced to separate themselves from that, which I think is very healthy and welcome.
- [25:52]
B
Yeah. And I mean, I do think it's having an impact on interior design for sure. This is kind of a little bit of a tangent, but I was writing something about the founder of this Danish design company called Frama. It's this guy, Nils Steuer Kristoffersen, and he has a home in Copenhagen and it's almost like a monastery or there's 10 things in the entire house. It's very bland, blank walls. And I was kind of thinking about how am I going to write about this? And there's something in a weird way kind of glamorous about it because it's like it's the glamour of time and attention and undivided attention and calm and quiet, which are very luxurious in this day and age. So I don't know, maybe tomorrow's luxury is a giant tin room with an electromagnetic pulse. But I do think this is having an impact and I think designers would be wise to take notice. Just don't stop the screen time you spend on businessofhome.com that's the one thing I ask you carve out time for?
- [26:46]
A
No, definitely not. But I think in the whole discussion about AI, the whole discussion about spending so much time on Instagram and all of the influence that that has on so many people's lives, I think there's a real shift and I think this is a big trend that we're going to be talking about a lot in the coming year as people are just looking for some kind of an escape. So I loved this piece and I love this conversation and I'm sure we'll be talking about it more. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including the latest industry hires and advice from Sean Lowe on changing the culture in your firm. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break. We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about laloy. Vegas market is just around the corner, so don't wait another minute to make your appointment to stop by the laloy showroom. It's the best way to experience a personalized tour of everything new from laloy and their partners, including Leanne Ford, Amber Lewis and Bridget Romanik, plus all of their new one of a kind vintage collections. Open a trade account and make an appointment@loloirugs.com that's l o l o I rugs.com and don't forget to follow eloirugs on Instagram and TikTok. And we're back. I'm joined now by Washington Post reporter Rachel Curzias. Rachel, welcome back to the show.
- [28:26]
C
Thanks so much for having me.
- [28:28]
A
I'm so glad to have you back. And let's remind listeners before we jump into conversation, the beat you cover and some of what comes across your desk and what you're looking at.
- [28:39]
C
I cover homes, lived spaces, design for the Washington Post as well as thinking a lot about how do we interact with the things in our home, the people who live near us or come into our home, really imagining home and design as broadly as I can.
- [28:57]
A
Well, I'm always thrilled when you have a story and so often on The Thursday show, we'll see a story that you've done and we'll think, oh, we should get Rachel on the show and have her tell us about it. So there's a couple of stories like that that we're gonna get into. One of the stories that you wrote recently was about, and I don't want to offend listeners sensibilities when I refer to the viral couch because many listeners in this show refer to it as a sofa and get quite animated on the subject. Right, good. Cheers. Just FYI. Yes, yes, yes.
- [29:27]
C
I've got to avoid these kind of potential landmines.
- [29:30]
A
Okay, so for the sake of accuracy of your story, which was about the viral couch, tell us about the story and what unfolded here.
- [29:41]
C
The story came about because I saw a viral TikTok about one particular couch. It's called the annabe. It's a modular sofa. But really it got me and my team thinking about this. This bigger phenomenon of couches that go viral that everyone is suddenly talking about on social media, often, it turns out, thanks to promoted posts. And then there's a huge backlash to these couches. And we started thinking about this idea of couch regret. What happens when this piece of furniture that is so elemental to your home and often an expensive item to purchase is one that you sit on and. And just absolutely stew over having made the wrong purchase? So all of these things kind of came together to create this story about the viral couch. And I guess I want to start off by being clear. I wasn't trying to pick on annabe. I have heard from people who really like their Anna Bay couch. But what struck me as really fascinating about it is the people who didn't like their couch were so, so disappointed by the experience and almost emotionally distraught, I would say. And I think it all comes down to this. There is no one couch that's great for everyone. There's no one size fits all. Because we all have such different ideas of what is comfortable, we are all using our couches for different things. Right. A couch that you put in a sitting room where you're all sitting up straight is quite different than what you might need from a couch couch in a room where you're watching television all of the time. So what struck me the most about all of this is so much of the time when people are buying a couch without having sat on it themselves, that can lead to issues. And in the case of this annabe couch, some of the people I spoke to had told me they put the couch together and you have a 30 day return window. Right. So it seems like, oh, this isn't risky. If I don't like it, it, I'll send it back. So they put it together, they sit on it, and you're already putting this sweat equity into putting it together. So they want to like it already. You're like, I did the right thing. I'm rooting for myself. I love this couch. I love this couch.
- [32:05]
A
I practically built it myself.
- [32:07]
C
I mean, they quite literally at least put the pieces together themselves. Right. And so, but I think that there's this idea of, oh, if there's a no questions asked return policy, this isn't a risky endeavor, but it's actually quite hard to return a humongous piece of furniture. Right. Like, it's certainly in the realm of possibility to do, but the idea of then taking it apart again and figuring out how to ship it all the way back is at the very least a pain in the butt.
- [32:38]
A
Sure.
- [32:39]
C
And I was thinking a lot about how these. These folks who I talked to had really tried to convince themselves, like, I made the right decision here and basically didn't fully come to terms with their regret until after that return window had lapsed. And the advice that I received is that you should not be going off of what influencers say is a good couch.
- [33:06]
A
Exactly. So let's start there. Let's start with the fact that we are living in a time where one of the ways that you are making a decision about this incredibly important piece of furniture is what, following the advice of some influencers on TikTok and social media.
- [33:23]
C
Right. And the folks I spoke to, it wasn't necessarily through influencers, but it was through a lot of targeted advertisements. And I believe that the best way to figure out if a cow is going to work for you or if a mattress is going to work for you, you gotta sit on it, you gotta lie on it. And I recognize that that's not possible for everyone. Folks are really busy. Maybe you don't live near a furniture store, but whenever possible, you gotta try it on for yourself to see if this is something that might work for you. Because unlike, say, returning a shirt or a pair of pants, it is significantly more difficult to return a humongous item of furniture. And I think sometimes these advertisements are not always transparent. Right. Like, you think that you're getting the unvarnished truth of somebody's review about the couch that they love, but perhaps they're not necessarily disclosing that they were paid to give that review.
- [34:26]
B
Right.
- [34:27]
C
And I also think that there's a churn that we're seeing on social media of people switching up their routine rooms with such great frequency that, first of all, for most of us, is not affordable to do. It is certainly not sustainable to be switching out humongous items like couches with any level of frequency. I mean, when you are buying a big ticket item, you really need to be thinking about, is this going to last for many, many seasons of my life? Not just does this respond to the current aesthetic moment that I am in for the next couple of months. So if you are looking to respond to a decor trend, the best way to do that would be with something that you can switch out easily, like a throw pillow, a blanket, basically anything aside from the couch itself.
- [35:19]
A
It's funny, because last time you were on the show, we were having a conversation about an article that you had written about the decline in quality of furniture in America. And I certainly. And I don't feel that much has changed or improved since we last spoke.
- [35:36]
B
Rachel.
- [35:36]
C
I don't either.
- [35:38]
A
And perhaps this article is pointing to that. Now, listen, I don't know how the company feels, what quality level they feel they are presenting this sofa to be. So they may feel that, listen, for $1,500, we're giving you a sofa that you can put together yourself. And right. And here it is.
- [36:00]
C
It is modular. It is a sofa that is washable. There are a lot of elements of this sofa that are appealing, and that's why a lot of people have purchased them. And some of the people who have purchased those couches are quite happy with their decisions. It just gets back to this idea that people are looking for very different things in their furniture. And one other element that really struck me is the people that I spoke to were so invested in trying to make this piece of furniture work that rather than immediately kind of throw in the towel and return it, instead, one person bought a different cover for the couch, so basically threw more money in to see, maybe I made the wrong choice when it came to the couch.
- [36:45]
A
Maybe it's me. Maybe it's me.
- [36:47]
C
Exactly. Like, it's not you, it's me. And another took out some of the filling of the couch because that is a potential instruction that it's overfilled so that you can kind of get it to your level of comfort. And what they found is not only did that not work in terms of making it more comfortable, but it also made the appearance of the couch look more bedraggled.
- [37:14]
A
Sure. I can't imagine that that made it look better. Certainly, if the complaint was that all you feel is the metal bar, which seemed to be the Davis sisters. Big complaint on social. Yeah, Well, I mean, again, it's fascinating to me from a product discovery. So I have so many items. I don't know what items are being forced upon you lately, Rachel. There's a stainless steel griddle that Instagram is just very keen for me to buy. Somehow social media thinks I make a lot of burgers at home for the family. P.S. i don't, but they kind of got that wrong. But interestingly. But I mean, I am just one step away from buying this darn griddle, Rachel. So, I mean, it's worth it just.
- [37:56]
C
To get it off your feet, even if it means then it goes into your home. I do think that that's going on in a big way. This kind of repetition to the point where you're like, fine, I give in. Another element that intrigues me is that in a lot of ways, this is. Is heightened by the Internet and by social media, but that this has been happening for a long time. I mentioned in the article the West Elm Peggy couch.
- [38:21]
A
Oh, yes.
- [38:22]
C
Which is now about a decade ago. And certainly social media existed then, but a woman who I interviewed wrote about buying this couch, and look, she went in person, bought the couch. And to her at the time, West Elm symbolized this idea of, look at me, I'm an adult.
- [38:40]
A
It was an aspirational brand for her.
- [38:42]
C
Exactly. And so when you're buying this couch, of course it's something that you are sitting on, but it is also something that in some ways helps define who you are in that moment and your sense of personal taste. And she purchases the couch, and it begins falling apart. And then she realizes that she's not alone, because, again, I think people think that there must be something they're doing wrong. Right. Like, what was she doing to make her couch fall apart? Goes to discover that there's an entire community of people who are dissatisfied with this Peggy couch, and she ends up writing an article about it. The article goes viral, and West Elm ultimately ends up issuing refunds for all the people who purchased this couch. So it wasn't necessarily that the couch was viral. It was that the complaint about the couch went viral, which led to a kind of change.
- [39:36]
A
Yeah. Now we've got to transition into a little bit more of a complicated story that you wrote about in great detail, but one that I think is important for designers especially to hear about a lengthy legal battle with a client and a design firm. Let's explain the story and as much detail as you want to share about.
- [40:00]
C
All of this, I would be happy to. I wrote a story about a Trump administration official named Pete Morocco. But this story began long before the Trump administration. Indeed, it began during the administration of George W. Bush, when Pete Morocco, who owned two properties in Tallahassee, was abroad for the summer and asked his neighbors, who ran a design firm called Design and More, to just help him fix up the properties, get one of them ready for rental. And so it appeared as though they had a perfectly fine relationship that summer, and the folks at Design and More were keeping Morocco abreast of the the work that they were doing on the property. At the end of the summer, something changed. What it appeared to have been was Design and More sent along an invoice. Morocco thought that was a final due invoice, whereas they said later on in affidavits that, no, this was just an explanation of all of the furniture that we had in the condo ready to be staged. And so Morocco sued. He sued for breach of contract and conversion. He said that they didn't complete all the work that they had agreed on and also did work that they didn't agree on, then Design and More countersued. They claimed that Morocco actually owed them money for subcontractors and that he was, quote, wrongfully detaining furniture and decor. They then file construction liens on his property properties. And those construction liens, more than any of the contract stuff themselves, become one of the major reasons why this lawsuit continued on and on for nearly two decades and indeed is still going on to this day. And that's how it began, with basically a very run of the mill contract dispute. But in the many, many years that followed, it ballooned into a proceeding that is basically unrecognizable and seems to have.
- [42:19]
A
Gone through multiple courts. And various judges, and judges have had to remove themselves in some cases.
- [42:24]
C
And there was an allegation at one point that Morocco engineered a scheme over email to get the first judge to recuse himself. So it gets very complicated and bizarre. Legal experts I spoke to told me that they've literally never seen anything like this.
- [42:44]
A
And I encourage everyone to read the story as it will put fear in the hearts and minds of every designer who has gone through some kind of client dispute. And what's so poignant, and there are so many things that are so poignant, but it seems as if this could have been settled very early on for a relatively small amount of money, and it sounds like it almost was. And then.
- [43:09]
B
Right.
- [43:09]
A
And then that didn't happen. And then the. The amount sort of grew and grew because there was an issue of lost wages that was thrown into the mix, correct?
- [43:19]
C
That is correct. So after about a year of legal back and forth, they did reach a settlement. The owners of Design and More would have paid Morocco $25,000 and called him up on the phone in apologies. Apologized.
- [43:35]
B
Right.
- [43:36]
C
Which in the grand scheme of things, especially compared to what this lawsuit has become, seems like pretty small potatoes. I'm not trying to say $25,000 is just like nothing, but certainly it's less than the more than $1 million.
- [43:51]
A
Right. Which is where it is now.
- [43:52]
B
Yeah.
- [43:53]
C
And that got scuttled ultimately because Morocco didn't like the language that was used to cancel those construction liens. And so instead, it just kind of kept going. But it was notable to me that something that was going to be settled in what seemed like a pretty simple manner instead just continued to evolve in this very unusual way.
- [44:21]
A
Well, and as you say, misunderstandings. That original invoice, that was really just. Here's all the furniture that we're thinking of using for staging. Just so you have to.
- [44:32]
C
What Design and More says. I can't speak to the heart of what that invoice actually meant. Right. I can just tell you how both of the parties presented it. Another element that I guess is worth mentioning here is that Design and Moore ultimately filed for bankruptcy.
- [44:47]
A
Yes. Sadly. So tell us about that.
- [44:49]
C
Nearly a decade after all this litigation began, there was a trial, a jury trial, and. And that jury trial ultimately determined that everyone owed each other a couple thousand dollars, basically, but also determined that Design and Moore owed Pete Morocco about $500,000 for all of those lost wages because he required a security clearance for work. Having liens on his property endangered that security clearance. But then the judge basically nixed, fixed that finding of the jury. So it goes to appeals court, and it keeps going and going and going. It gets appealed, it gets cross appealed. Ultimately, the appeals court determines that Design and More does owe Morocco that very large sum of money. And since then, most of the case has been centered around him trying to collect. Collect that money and them saying, basically, we don't have it. That money does not exist for us. They went to bankruptcy court, where Morocco alleged that they were hiding money that they just didn't want to pay him. Ultimately, bankruptcy court determined that, no, they really don't seem to have the money. And now it is back where it started in Tallahassee Court.
- [46:14]
A
In a Tallahassee court with sort of no end in Sight.
- [46:17]
B
Although.
- [46:18]
A
Although I gather that the judge would love to see this settled one way or another, as judges often want to do, get it off their docket.
- [46:26]
C
Yes. I mean, look, and this has now been many judges who have felt that way. There was one judge who said that this case was circling the drain, and even it was unclear to him what the court could even do with this case. When I went to a hearing in March, it was when they. They agreed to go to mediation. The judge was talking to the lawyers and said, please, please, basically help their clients agree to some kind of end to all of this. And the judge said, and I quote, considering what this case started out as and where it is now, I mean, we are reaching Dickensian levels of challenges to the effectiveness of the civil judge justice system. The pleading so far doesn't seem to have worked. This case is still open.
- [47:16]
A
Well, it's a fascinating story. There's so much for designers and others to learn about what went wrong and what can go wrong in these situations. And it sounds like perhaps you spoke to some people recently who sort of weighed in on what some. Some legal counsel might be in situations like this or advice to give to designers going forward as a way to avoid perhaps getting into something like this.
- [47:45]
C
Yeah, I can speak generally to some good advice that I learned from a lawyer who works closely with interior designers. What he told me is that you should always hammer out a written contract, first of all, because having the contract itself is a form of protection. And secondarily, the process of fine tuning a contract is helpful in terms of understanding whether you and a client are going to be a good fit. Can you communicate effectively? Do you have the same kinds of expectations? That process is really helpful for figuring all of that out.
- [48:26]
A
The issue of contracts is one that we talk about a great deal. Deal. And so that is a very helpful reminder about that. It's a fascinating story. I mean, the Trump aspect of it is the juicy hook in the beginning, but I mean, it's really just sort of a nightmarish client story at the end of the day and lots of layers. And as I think I've tried to drive home, it's always great to read your columns and you cover a wide array of topics. And I love the way that you get into so many of the issues around home. Is there anything that you're working on at the moment that you can give us a little preview of?
- [49:07]
C
I can tell you kind of what I am fascinated by this year. And then even if your listeners wanted to reach out to provide their thoughts or offer themselves up as sources or provide tips. I am always incredibly open to that. But one thing that I thinking through or noodling on this year is this idea of kind of what provides homes with character. I've been seeing this push in particular towards making your home weird and what that looks like or where it comes from, or this idea of now there's all of this backlash to, for example, taking colored tile and replacing it with something that's more black and white tile, or even taking vintage furniture and painting it. This idea of what is authentic and what is character in a home or in pieces of furniture is something that I keep returning to because I think so much of people's choices. I mean, look, a lot of people's choices are just motivated by, like, what is possible to get through the day and have something to sit on when I come home. But when people start thinking about their homes, on some level, they are thinking about a place that is an asset for them, and then on the other side, they are thinking about what is a place that represents me. And the tension between those things is something that I keep returning to.
- [50:34]
A
Rachel, I hope that our listeners will write to you with ideas and go on the record to talk to you about things, because that will be very interesting and I'm thrilled that you were able to make the time to talk with me. And I really appreciate it. Appreciate it.
- [50:47]
C
Yeah. It's always such a pleasure to chat with you. Thanks for having me.
- [50:55]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [51:03]
B
Big surprise. Something on substat caught my eye this week. Tennis. The former podcast guest David Michonne, the journalist behind 4scale, one of the best and funniest and weirdest design substacks, is hosting a design criticism competition. We've talked about, you know, we need more design critics out there in the universe, but how much money have we put up? Nothing. David's putting his money where his mouth is and hosting there. There's some kind of cash prize. I don't know how much it is, but I'll be really interested to see, see who wins this. It's, it's, it's a, you know, you're supposed to write something. I don't know if it's like, necessarily a critique, but criticism around interior design and send it into four scale. So if you're, if you're interested in applying for scale.subset.com. the deadline is February 15th and I for one will be really excited to see what, what wins the prize. Did you see that?
- [51:52]
A
I did, I saw, I saw a lot of people sharing that and, and a lot of enthusiasm around that. So I'm, I'm excited to see where it, where it goes and perhaps we have to have David back on the show to talk about it right when the results come come out. But, but we're all for more, more effective criticism in this, in this industry. We're longing for it.
- [52:12]
B
Except of us. That's the one thing we can't abide by.
- [52:15]
A
No, no.
- [52:15]
B
This week.
- [52:17]
A
Well, as we, as we said at the top of the show, I am on my way to, to Paris for Deco off and Maison Objet and then taking the, taking the train, Fred, from Paris to London. Brutal for, for Destination London Design Destination London, which I'm really looking forward to. An event that I haven't been to and apparently several hundred designers are flying in to London for that event. We'll be at Chelsea Harbour, we'll be at Pimlico Road, we'll be going around to showrooms and some people I think are going off to visit castles and see all sorts of interesting things. So we'll be talking about that a lot more on next week's show. Show. Caitlin and I are going to try and recap what we saw in Paris and, and Caitlin and I are having lunch at RH Paris on Saturday, Fred. So we're looking forward to that as well. So stay tuned for lots more coverage from Paris and London. But in the meantime, I'm, I'm looking forward to seeing what everyone introduces at the shows and, and, and seeing a lot of people in Europe. All right, alright, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.