← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: What happened at High Point? Plus: Why designers are experimenting with AI video
01:18:21
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, BOH’s editor in chief Kaitlin Petersen joins the show to recap High Point Market.
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Foreign.
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This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday show. Later on we'll be recapping High Point Market with boh's editor in chief, Caitlin Peterson. But first we're going to catch up on the news, including Wayfair's breakout quarter, the rise of AI generated video and a drama filled celebrity home tour. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nickel. Hi, Fred.
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Hi, Dennis. How's it going? Great.
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B
Glad to be back.
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A
Welcome back from High Point Markets. We're going to be talking about it for a long time later on in the show, so I won't ask you for your highlights because there's plenty more of those coming. Absolutely. Instead, I will say congratulations to us, but mostly you. This is business of home's 500ths podcast.
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B
I don't know if you knew that. Is that right? I did not know that. Well, wow.
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A
There we go. Break out the streamers and maybe I can have our editor lay some club music underneath us as we celebrate. But can. Congratulations. It's an accomplishment.
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B
Well, thank you so much for everything that you do to make that possible, Fred. I'm so grateful.
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A
That's why I brought it up, to get the.
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B
That's what I figured.
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Well, and as I said, I will not be back for our 502nd episode because I'm gonna be in Don't Upset Me Madrid, the lucky guest of the Design Leadership Network to be at their summit. So I'm excited for that. But Caitlin's gonna take my place. It should be a great episode. In the meantime, it's Halloween. What's your design themed? Halloween costume. Dennis, let's waste a little more time before we get to the.
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B
I have just been running around so much, Fred. I just don't have a costume. I am sorry to have to say I've got to run to the store and stock up on some good candy for the many kids who will be coming by my house. What about you? Are you going to take the kids out?
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A
Yeah, it's a marathon around one block. It takes about six hours to do all that. But I'm excited. I don't have a Halloween costume. I should probably go as a tariff or something. Or something very nice and topical that I think all the kids in the neighborhood really connect with.
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B
Yes. They'd relate to that, I'm sure.
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A
Exactly. I'll tell you who I won't be going as. Nate Berkus, because he is too handsome. He was Business of Home's guest on Monday for the Monday show. Great episode. What'd you like about the conversation?
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B
What's not to like about a conversation with Nate Berkus? I say it was interesting because as I mentioned to Nate right before I left for High Point, I was going to be talking about authenticity and how to come across as your true self. And few people in the industry do that better than Nate Berkus. Sure, he's had 30 years to work on it and improve it, but it's a great story how he first came up in the industry and everybody knows the big Oprah Winfrey breakthrough. But there was a lot of hard work before that and after, and he shares a lot of that. But also, really, it's just such an enjoyable conversation. It's always great to speak with him. What about you?
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A
Yeah, just a very charming guy. I love that you asked him how he charges in his markup and he told you so. If you ever want to hear how a celebrity designer charges, listen to that episode and you'll hear that. I don't know. I just love, you know, so many designers, they get to a certain point in their career, they're very successful, and they start to kind of resent it all and they're tired of their clients and they just want to get out and get a book deal or get a boutique hotel or get a TV show. And I feel like Nate Berkus is an example of somebody who had all those things and still has some of them, but still loves the grind of working with clients. You know, I mean, maybe doesn't love every minute of working with clients, but he really loves the hustle, and that very much comes through. So it's a fun conversation for someone doing it three decades and counting and still has a love of the game.
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B
Yeah, and that really comes through. And I think that's one of the things that makes him so appealing, is that you do get the sense that he still is enjoying so much of what he gets to do. And he was very candid about the fact that he had an opportunity to take an exit years ago and chose not to. So good for him. I hope everyone will enjoy the episode. I know many people already have, as they very kindly written to me, and I appreciate that he's an all around good guy and we should all get to be as kind as Nate Berkus. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Chelsea House. Celebrated designer Amanda Lindroth is bringing her signature style to Chelsea house. Amanda's introducing her line of furniture, accessories and lighting in partnership with the storied North Carolina based company. Think sun bleached neutrals, breezy verandas and Old World charm. From hand woven trays to scalloped side chairs, each piece captures the effortless elegance of island life. The Amanda Lindroth Home Collection had its debut at High Point Market. See the full line@amandalindroth.com or chelseahouseinc.com and bring the island home. This podcast is sponsored by Newport brass. For over 35 years, Newport brass has handcrafted solid brass kitchen and bath faucets made to last for generations. Inspired by coastal elegance, these fixtures balance east coast tradition with west coast ease, offering timeless silhouettes and uncompromising craftsmanship. With a pallet of 22 finishes and endless configurations, Newport Brass gives every project presence, purpose and distinction. See what's possible@newportbrass.com and we're back. First up, Fred, we're going to talk about Wayfair.
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It's earnings season once again and the E commerce giant just reported their numbers for the quarter. Wayfair is still losing money, but almost everything else looked great and Wall street sent the stock soaring up 20%. A pretty impressive day for Wayfair. Now, you know this is sort of playing against the backdrop of a lot of stuff happening in the wider economy. As we're recording, Jerome Powell is talking to various people about the interest rates. Why don't you sort of catch us up to speed before we dive into Wayfair and what's going on with the bigger economy?
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B
That's right. As you say, as we're hopping on here, Jerome Powell is hosting his press Fed meeting conference where he's letting people know that the Fed has cut interest rates by another 25 basis points or a quarter of a percentage point. And he's telling people why and that perhaps he's not gonna keep lowering rates. We'll have to see. But everyone was anticipating that today was the day we were gonna get another rate cut. And it came through the market was pretty excited going into this. Looks like some of the steam has come out of the market, but we'll see. But definitely there's a feeling on Wall street that rates are gonna be lower still in the near future.
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A
Yeah, and I mean, I think there has been some, I'm gonna say it, tariff news since last week, but it's mostly a lot of noise. And it appears that we're at least a little bit closer to a trade deal with China, which maybe will sort of ease the pressure on a lot of the companies that we talk about on the regular, including Wayfair. And maybe that good news, ish, was a backdrop for their really breakout day on Wall Street. As I said, they lost $100 million, which for a lot of companies would be a bad day. But in the context of Wayfair, their total revenue was up 8% year over year, up to $3.1 billion. That's a lot of money. All of their indicators were just upwards. They're making money at a time when housing is flat. No one expects them to be doing well, but all of their numbers are going up, except of course, for profit. So what was your read on the financials, Dennis?
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B
Interestingly, Wayfair's stock had been on a tear going into this and the street sent shares up another 20%, but the stock had already more than doubled. I think the Stock's up roughly 140% on the year as we go into this conversation. So this is a stock that's had a massive run coming off of the Liberation Day lows when all that tariff news first came out. And part of the reason the stock has been so strong is the consistent message from Wayfair is that those tariffs haven't held them back. Now, we also know that Wayfair has been spending many quarters getting their financial house in order so that when revenues did come back in a meaningful way, it would drop to the bottom line in a big way. And we certainly saw that. But this number, the fact that they were up 8.1% in revenue, got a lot of people feeling like there's a lot of things working at Wayfair.
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A
Yeah. And it's really interesting because as we talked about a couple of months ago, despite again, all the tariff confusion and the housing market being relatively stagnant, a lot of the big home retailers did relatively well over the summer. And this suggests that momentum will continue. I do kind of wonder when they're going to really make money. That's not a new question to ask. I agree that this was a good quarter for them. I wouldn't question that. But I do think that that's got to be on investors minds to see a return on all the millions and billions of dollars that have been dumped into the company. Ben, as you said, Niraj, the CEO literally said we have not seen any consumer behavior change based on tariffs. That's a good sign that no matter what comes out of the White House, Wayfair will be doing okay. But another big thing that came out of the call was a little, I don't know, a little like show and tell about AI. Did that catch your eye, Dennis?
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B
It certainly did. And I really. I suggest that people in the industry listen to the opening part of the earnings call from Wayfair, because Fiona Tan, who is Wayfair's chief technology officer, who had been at Walmart actually for about six years before coming to Wayfair and is really quite skilled in AI, came on and gave essentially a masterclass in everything that AI could do for your company. And what did you think, Fred?
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A
Well, a couple things I wanted to dial in on. Two things she's put specifically said. One is that reading between the lines. She said something about how Wayfair will be integrated into the big chatbot soon. So my read on that is that ChatGPT has recently been setting up these partnerships with Walmart so that when you're searching through ChatGPT like, I want a great pillow, they'll provide you results and you can just click to buy all through ChatGPT. I'm 100% confident Wayfair will be among those brands on these chatbots as well soon. The other thing is that they are going to roll out a generative AI engine that's sort of an interior design type tool. Now, they've dabbled in this before. They kind of walked it back and went for this sort of like AI Pinterest thing called Muse that I think we both mutually hated. But they're apparently building on that and they want to do something a little bit more like what Havenly just did, where you kind of put in your own room and get to fill it with Wayfair product. But, you know, it's interesting, Dennis, you know, you say like, okay, this is a masterclass on how to use AI. One other thing was that Niraj in the call said that AI actually hasn't really made a big difference on our bottom line so far. It made it seem like there was really no detectable, you know, improvement to either revenue or profitability ability. So while there is a lot of hand waving around, everyone's got AI in the company. Even the dog walker's got AI. Like, I do wonder, is this just sort of trying experiments or is this, do you think this is really making a big difference in their business right now or in the short term?
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No, no, no, Fred, I want to clarify. This was a masterclass in how to talk about how you could use AI.
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How to talk about AI?
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Yes, this was a masterclass in talking about every different department and how it could in theory be impacted by artificial intelligence. Everything from giving your vendors tools to help them write better tickets and using AI to write better product descriptions and using AI to get more photorealistic listings. I mean now whether all of these tools will prove to be successful. We've talked about this repeatedly over the, over the years. Lots of other technology related tools have come and gone. None of them were that meaningful in the end. I do believe that if any company is going to bring AI to the bottom line, it's likely to be Wayfair because they are such a technology and systems and data focused company that I think they are the ones to watch in this space. And the reason I mentioned that she came from Walmart is that Walmart cracked the code on how to use AI and find efficiencies to bring it to their bottom line. So I am certain that she learned a great deal in her time there. And there's just a lot of smart people working on at Wayfair and that's always been the defense. When everybody says, oh, they're not making money, they're not making money. Yeah, but they're so smart. Wait till they figure all this out.
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They're too smart to make money.
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I think that Wall street is past giving them the benefit of the doubt. I think Wall street has decided this is the one to watch. And listen, it's early days for Paragould. They've only opened a couple of stores, but you talk to the people at High Point about Paragould and they're very focused on what if that opens 10, 20 more stores and what kind of player is that going to be. So there's a lot of things that could happen POS for Wayfair. And listen, they're still leveraged and they acknowledge that, but they brought that leverage down. So I mean, you can poke holes to be sure, but there was a lot of good news coming out of this call to be certain.
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A
No question. I think it was a good quarter. I think sometimes just the AI hype gets a little vague and I just want to be critical of what they say they're hoping to do versus what they're actually doing versus how much it actually matters. But I'm sure we'll get another AI show and tell next quarter or maybe the quarter after that. So we'll talk about it when it comes.
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Well, everyone's hyping AI. Listen, it's holding up the economy right now, Fred. So I hope that, yeah, I hope.
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That maybe I'm just too dumb. I like making money. I know it's weird. But.
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B
Moving on, we're going to talk about John Edelman's new venture. Three years after restarting Heller, John has a new business, Modern Outlet, an e commerce site that sells imperfect pieces by brands like Fritz Hansen and linear at discount prices. Who better than John Edelman to step into this space, Right, Fred?
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A
Yeah, John Edelman, you know, he's a podcast guest several times over, is just a. I wish you could bottle his enthusiasm and energy because he's just so enthusiastic about what he does and he's very enthusiastic about this Modern Outlet. So where should we start in this, Dennis?
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B
Well, so let's talk about exactly what this is and how it works.
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A
Yeah. Okay. So John currently runs Heller, this design company that he bought and restarted in 2022. And they got to a certain size where they weren't going through a third party logistics facility anymore. They had enough scale to move into their own wareh, and conveniently enough, they bought the old Edelman leather factory in Connecticut or they got a deal on it. So they moved all their Heller stuff into this factory and they set up this photo studio to photograph their own product. And it was kind of expensive, and they were thinking, we have to staff this thing and keep it going. And at the same time, they were dealing with this problem of we have all this imperfect merchandise, things that were in a showroom or a return or something that didn't work out exactly right that we want to sell, but it's sort of complicated to know how to sell it. And so they thought, well, let's put these two things together. I bet there's other companies out there who have a lot of imperfect merchandise sitting around. I'm sure they'd love to get it photographed and sold. Why don't we put this little business together where we'll intake all these seconds and imperfect merchandise, we'll photograph it in our facility and we'll sell it online through this new venture called Modern Outlet. And so this is a real pain point for these brands. They can't just throw this stuff away. They can't just operate, you know, they can't put it on the floor with a, you know, 90% off sticker on it because they're trying to be a high end brand. And so this very cleverly solves their problem by saying, hey, give it to us, we'll deal with it, we'll photograph it well and we'll sell it online. So part of me does wonder because you're going up against first dibs and ebay, all the other sites that sell vintage furniture. It's not going to be vintage, but sell these brands as well at a discount off of retail pricing. And it's expensive to capture people's attention online. I think a lot of people get into E commerce thinking like, how hard could it be? I know these guys are going in with eyes wide open, but I do wonder how much scale there is to buy, for example, a Fritz HANSEN Chair for 30% off retail. I'm sure there are some people who want it, but I'm not sure if it's millions and millions of people in the us So I do wonder about the potential here, but there's no shortage of energy and I think it's a very clever idea.
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B
Well, there's been so much talk about why the furniture industry isn't moving more quickly to get into this resale space. And so I wonder if this fills some of that void, at least initially on a small scale, to your point. But I mean, the fashion industry is so ahead of the furniture world in this that it's interesting to me there isn't more of this.
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Yeah, well, there's like some, but they tend to be venture funded and they kind of flame out. There was a CAIO went under. It's just all the logistics are so complicated. Like, I think it really helps if you already have a factory, you know, if you already have a warehouse and you already have a photo studio and you're dealing in a very specific slice of the market, that can help. I also think they're not dealing with investors wondering why haven't I got my 100x return one year later? I think they have probably the patience and the time to figure it out. Good luck to them.
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B
Yeah, I look forward to seeing how it goes. And as I say, I'm sure we'll talk to John in the future. In the meantime, we're going to talk about AI video. This week for Business of Home. Fred, you wrote about a new generation of AI video engines and whether designers can make use of the them. So can they? Can they make use of them?
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A
Well, I can make use of them to make really, really goofy videos that I put on the business.
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B
You are making use of them? Yes, yes. We internally are getting the benefit of Fred using AI video.
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A
I complain about all my deadlines and all my articles and then I spend my time making. Making AI videos. DM me if you want to see what I've been up to. So we should sort of explain what's going on here. So, you know, generative AI, you know, the thing we're always talking about on this show. Show. It's been able to make video for several years now. This is not totally new. Way back in 2022, there were even some really primitive video generators, but they weren't really ready for primetime. It was either expensive, like you had to pay more money, or the results weren't good, or they were sort of clunky. They looked all like. There's a classic example of trying to make a video of Will Smith eating spaghetti and it kind of looked like an alien eating some weird plate of worms. But they've gotten a lot better and now they're. There's these tools like OpenAI's Sora, which has been drawing some controversy, but is a very interesting little app. Google has this thing called VO3, which it offers through this program called Flow. There's lots of these engines now that allow you to basically generate a pretty good video with just a prompt or adding one of your own pictures and telling the engine to change it. So this technology is getting into more people's hands and some of those people are designers. That's kind of what I went looking for to see if and how people using it.
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B
And besides using it to throw a Halloween party in the famous yellow room, what are the ways that you imagine designers using this?
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A
Yeah, well, I think the obvious and kind of low hanging fruit is working this into a presentation. And I think there's a few designers I spoke to are kind of like people who are on sort of the cutting edge, who educate other designers about AI and they've all experimented with this. You could upload a picture of a rendering that you've done and tell one of these engines, hey, animate this like you're doing a walkthrough. And it'll do a pretty good job of kind of replicating what it would feel like to see a camera moving through the space. So that might help give your client a sense of, okay, well, this is what the space sort of feels like in a way that a rendering might not. It's also good for making content on social media. I made a dumb video of, as you said, Dennis, of a Halloween party inside Nancy Lancaster's yellow Room. I don't know if that would be something a designer would want to do, but I had fun with with it. And so it's good for making content in a time when social media is all about video. So I do think there's a lot of interesting potential. You could even sort of road test one of your concepts by saying, okay, we'll Make a video of people using the space and then just sort of. The engine would probably do a relatively decent job of imagining, well, is this actually going to look right when there's people in it, as opposed to just a rendering sitting at a computer? So there's all kinds of potential down the line. Right now it feels a little bit more like something for fun. Have you played with this stuff, Dennis?
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B
I've played with it a little bit, and as you say, it's interesting from the perspective of saying, okay, if I lay the room out this way, what's it like if this room is suddenly filled with a bunch of people? What's the flow like? And that sort of thing. I can see that being a natural application. There are an awful lot of copyright issues that seem to be.
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A
That's a big part of it as well. Yes.
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B
But it is interesting to see what the technology can do and again, just how far it's come and how good these videos actually are. So it's impossible for me to imagine that this isn't going to be some sort of a useful tool in the near future for designers.
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A
Yeah. There's even one of the kind of weird things about Sora, which is the app that I think has gotten the most controversy because it took a rather laissez faire attitude around copyright, and people were making all these crazy videos about Pikachu getting arrested for a DUI and stuff like that. But one of the weird tweaks of it is it has this feature called Cameos, where if you want, you can sort of film yourself for a second, and Sora will be like, okay, now you can put yourself into these videos. You can film yourself, yourself jumping on a pogo stick or doing a backflip or doing some other activity, slightly more illegal activity. So you can put yourself in these videos in a weird way. And I could see a world in which people sort of, you can share your cameo as well. So imagine if you could literally take a video, your client's likeness, and put it into a rendering and be like, here's what it would look like for you to be sitting at home enjoying a cocktail in this living room I'm designing for you. It sounds a little dystopian and weird, but I don't think that's crazy far off from where we are right now.
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B
No. And I think this is a clear indication that it isn't crazy far off. It's great for people to dip their toe and fool around with this so that it doesn't seem so otherworldly. To them because this is coming and we are. We talk about being in this crazy AI bubble, but it, but it really is coming rapidly and the more that people just get used to it and familiarize themselves with these tools, the better and again, the closer we get to real world applications for them as, as well. So thank you for, for writing about that, as always. In the meantime, we're going to move on, Fred, because we've got some celebrity drama to talk about.
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A
It's not all serious tariffs and interest rates around here. We can have fun, too. Last week, British singer Lily Allen released her new album, West End Girl, which chronicles her split with Stranger Things actor David Harbour. And it's taken the tabloids by storm because it's very salacious. The reason we're talking about it is that the couple's Brooklyn townhouse has become a minor character in all of this drama. And best of all, podcast alumni Billy Cotton actually gets a name check in one of these songs. Let's hear it. Now I'm looking at houses with four.
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B
Or five floors and you found us a brownstone Said, you want it, it's yours.
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A
So we went ahead and we bought.
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B
It, found ourselves a good mortgage.
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A
Jelly cone got soiled all the furniture ordered. I could never afford. It's kind of hard to hear but he said Billy Cotton got sorted all the furniture ordered. What a time to be alive. Have you texted with Billy about this sentence?
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B
I haven't, interestingly enough. I was going to reach out to Billy about being on the show for another reason, his exciting new collection with Soane, which I'm eager to talk to him about. But now we really got to get him on to chat about this. And I'm sure his phone is ringing off the hook now that he's been name check in this song. And everybody remembers when the video of that townhouse first dropped for so many reasons. I mean, they were, of course.
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A
So this was an ad Open Door Tour, the famous YouTube series, and it was Lily Allen and David Harbour. And it was in 2023 they did a tour of their brownstone not too far from where I used to live in Brooklyn, although I did not have that nice little brownstone, I'll tell you that. And it was just, even at the time, it kind of generated some buzz because. Because, well, first of all, he described Billy Cotton, and I apologize, Billy as the budget unconscious Billy Cotton, which I thought was a little bit of an unnecessary burn on David Harbour's part. But also there was a carpeted bathroom and there was a whole series of articles that came out of. Oh, my God, our carpeted bathroom's back. We may have talked about this at the time, Dennis. I don't know if we fed at the trough of that clickbait, but it generated a lot of buzz at the time. And now this crazy divorce story that's all over the tabloids. That video has been viewed 8.5 million dol. It's kind of wild.
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B
It is. And again, we talk so often about ad and all the celebrity coverage. And you and I were talking just before the show about, you can understand the allure of the drive and the viewership that celebrities create. And then imagine what feels like five minutes after we all watched this video and fell in love with parts of their home. I certainly will never forget the fabulous Zubair wallpaper that was all over. And the plain English kitchen.
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A
Plain English kitchen.
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B
Really good.
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A
Yeah. Yes.
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B
And the moment where he described that Billy Cotton wanted that one little lamp to always be on in the kitchen. And they thought, what? What are you talking about? But then they fell in love with that. So, I mean, there were so many moments that people remember from this project, as you say. Many people felt that the relationship was doomed when they saw the carpeted bathroom and talked about that quite a bit. But it also, because it was this huge celebrity project, it got so much attention at the time. And now here we are, an album drops that is. That is talking about the breakup in great detail. And everyone's back to those videos and everyone's back to all that ad content. So it's all getting the rewards for ad viewership all over again.
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A
Yeah. If you look at their homepage, just the other day, I saw that there was, like, Lily Allen and David Harbour sell their townhouse. You know what I mean? Like, they. They know what they're doing. And I think that, like, there's another sort of side of this, too, that I kind of wanted to talk about, which is just that, like, I feel like celebrity divorces have always been a thing that people talk about in the tabloids and occasionally the couple's home kind of gets into it a little bit. But I feel like now, especially post Covid, when homes are just part of someone's identity and you show off your home and it's part of the celebrity, you know, publicity tour to do an open door, that it's just, you know, design is just kind of out there. And it's not just out there for, you know, regular media. It's out there in the tabloid media, too. I mean, the fact that Billy Cotton gets a shout out on a Lily Allen song, I think is a product of the fact that design is so much more part of pop culture than it used to be. I don't think you get this.
- [27:17]
B
In 2008, you can criticize AD for all this celebrity coverage. And P.S. there was plenty of celebrity coverage when Paige Rentz was the editor in chief. I mean, she did every home that Cher ever had, and she. She always said, if Cher gets another house, I'll put that one on the COVID too. So, I mean, it's always been part of the culture, but there weren't all the vehicles to expose the publication that way. The video content, the Instagram content, that all didn't exist. And they're powerful tools. They get lots of eyeballs. So it helps to make a lot of other things possible for the publication. So I get it. And honestly, I can't imagine that anyone at AD is regretting any of the steps that they've taken from it.
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A
I hope someone's getting a raise.
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B
Yeah.
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A
The other part of this I kind of wanted to talk about is just the fact that, like, I feel like more and more from designers, I hear that the client just doesn't want their home to be photographed. They'll. They'll, you know, they'll pay. The budget is no problem. They'll give the designer free reign, carte blanche, but they just don't want it to be photographed. Or maybe they just especially don't want it to be published in a magazine. I do feel like stories like this sort of make you appreciate, like, you know, the potential for. If something goes wrong, suddenly your home is out there and everyone can critique it. And I think a world with increasingly less privacy, people want to hold on to more and more of their privacy. And I do wonder if any designer's clients are kind of giggling at this story right now and then thinking, yeah, I'm not going to sign off on that photo shoot. I don't want any version of this to happen to me. What do you think? Is that a stretch?
- [28:50]
B
Well, I mean, I hate to think, having had several conversations recently with designers who are being held back by NDAs where they're not going to be able to photograph the project. I hate to think that one of the possible outcomes in all of this is more clients wanting that very stringent NDA and saying, no photo shoots, please, because it's so important for designers to be able to show the work, I hope that it doesn't swing that way, but you can certainly understand to your point, Fred, why? A lot of clients say, you see, this is why I don't want my project in ad. This is why I don't want it photographed. Because now everyone knows every nook and cranny of this house and refer to it all over social media. I mean, the references to. To this house in great detail. Everyone was like, what about the swans in the bathroom? You know, what's gonna happen to them? Where are they going? Who gets the swans? I think a big renovation is coming to that house in the not so distant future. But it's a fun story and hopefully it will stay in all the tabloids for a while. Also a fun album. I was a little bit disappointed. Cause at first I thought she was covering the Pet Shop Boys, West End Girls, and I was pretty excited about that. I thought, oh, she'd do a great cover of that. But then it turned out it was a completely different song.
- [30:04]
A
Yeah. I mean, maybe the lesson in all of this for any potential clients that might be listening is not insist on an NDA, but rather do not do wrong by a very talented songwriter because you don't want to end up on the wrong side of Lily Allen's barbed pen. So I think treat your partners right and don't insist on an NDA. Just do the right thing in your marriage and everything will be okay.
- [30:27]
B
Exactly. That's good advice, Fred. All right, that's it for the news. But there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including a roundup of new shops and showrooms and advice from seven designers on parting ways with an employee. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break. This break is brought to you by Newport Brass. Trusted by designers for more than three decades, Newport Brass has handcrafted solid brass kitchen and bath faucets made to layers last for generations. With a palette of 22 finishes and endless configurations, Newport Brass gives every project presence, purpose and distinction. See what's possible@newportbrass.com Imagine having the hottest products and home furnishings right at your fingertips and at your doorstep in days. Well, stop imagining and start experiencing. You'll find the best of today with exemplary customer service and your order shipped with speed. At Chelsea House. Discover why Chelsea House is having a moment and why it's been a long standing favorite of designers. See the full line@chelseahouseinc.com and find your new source of inspiration.
- [31:50]
A
And we're back. I'm not Dennis Scully. I'm the other guy who talks on this podcast. Fred Nicholas. I sadly did not make it down to High Point for Fall Market last weekend, but I'm here with two people who did, and hopefully they have a lot to say about it. Otherwise, we don't have a podcast. Let's start with Caitlin Peterson, business of Homes editor in chief. Caitlin, thanks for being here.
- [32:11]
C
Hi, friend. Happy to be here.
- [32:12]
A
Dennis Gulley. It's been so long since we talked. We should. We should really catch up.
- [32:16]
B
We really do need to chat more often. What the heck?
- [32:19]
A
Glad to have you here. So let's start with a quick vibe check in a word or a couple of words. Caitlin, what was the vibe at High Point Market this fall?
- [32:28]
C
Well, it's not the word that I was expecting. I think we all went in. I don't think anyone was expecting runaway success at this market, just given the economic climate around us. And Market was surprisingly optimistic. I think optimism would be my watchword for the whole weekend. My working theory is that so many exhibitors who had talked to us in the weeks and months leading up to market with a lot of. Of anxiety and panic and worry actually did all of the hard work by the time they put price tags on their product. And all that was left to do was come to market and show up and meet a bunch of attendees who were really excited to see their product, who were optimistic about the projects that they're working on, the shopping they're doing, the trends they were seeing. And I went in thinking we were going to have all these dark conversations about economic headwinds ahead of us, and instead it was joyful, it was fun, it was hopeful, it was a great time.
- [33:31]
A
Awesome. An optimistic take.
- [33:33]
B
Wow. An optimistic High point. I love it.
- [33:36]
A
Dennis, don't bring us down.
- [33:39]
B
Well, I mean, I think what was interesting is I think people were ready to get beyond the tariff talk. To Caitlin's point, I think think what I definitely took away and my word would be calculated. So I feel like lots of people had done the math ahead of time. Everybody knew what their response was going to be to the tariff issue. Let's get it out of the way and then let's move on to Caitlin's point. Everybody wanting to see what the product was, get excited about some of the things that were trending at Market, and we'll talk about that. But I think, I think everybody had sharpened their pencils, put on their green visors, gotten the number, knew how much of a spread there was that they could offer people. But they were very measured about the product that they had put on the floor, and they were very thoughtful and Again, calculated about how they were going to talk about this whole issue.
- [34:39]
A
So optimistic and calculated are the takes from the editors on the ground just to sort of get the numbers out of the way. So, Caitlin, you kindly reached out to the High Point Market Authority, and we got a little early access to the attendance. 1 percentage point off of spring market, down 0.95%, which is flat, which they were kind of enthusiastic about, given the overall economic conditions. Large retailers were up about 7%. New buyers up 3%. Perhaps no surprise, given all the tariffs. They were down 10% from spring market in terms of international buyers. So kind of a flat market with some minor ups and downs. Downs. Caitlin, I'm wondering what you make of those numbers and also what it felt like to walk market.
- [35:20]
C
What's really funny is, you know, I was talking to the folks at the High Point Market Authority yesterday right before I left town, and they were saying that that international buyer number, it was down 10%, which, you know, kind of, who can blame them? Nobody's surprised, but actually it was down a lot more about a month ago. And in the last two to three weeks before market, they saw a huge rally in international buyers register to come to the show, which I think those numbers were really shifting in real time. This was a market where people registered to attend really late. But kind of in the last, I don't know, two, three weeks ago, I think a bunch of people looked at the news, looked at what their plans were for the next six months, and thought, actually, maybe I should book a flight to High Point. I think in terms of what it felt like, you know, look, these numbers are pretty flat to Spring. Spring didn't exactly feel packed either, and the sidewalks were never really full. This was. Wasn't a market where you were pushing people out of the way in inner hall to get to your next destination. But I will say that, you know, you get kind of anecdotal traffic figures from folks in showrooms, and a lot of them said, look, badge scans are down a little bit, or badge scans are pretty flat to spring. But anybody who was tracking kind of written business said that the business they were doing was up 10, 15, 20%. And I think people who were here to buy, like the people who show showed up, were there to buy, and maybe that's a good thing, right? You got maybe fewer people, but you got the right people. You got people who had come with a plan and with some money to spend. Dennis, what did you see?
- [36:52]
B
I completely agree. I think this was very much a less is more market. And you always have the people that want to tell you the minute you walk in the door that it feels slow. And we all know who those people are, and they want to bring you down right away as you cross their threshold. But I think that there were just as many people, if not more, that told you just what Caitlin was saying, that, you know what's been surprising, we actually haven't been as busy traffic wise, but the amount of orders is up dramatically in some cases. I sort of wish that Wayfair had come out with their earnings numbers before market because I think those numbers were so strong and so uplifting to the stock and the market that it would have been great to have that shot in the arm. There definitely was the impression, though, because the Wayfair team had come earlier in the week, there definitely was the impression that a lot of the big retailers were back in a more meaningful way and people were definitely talking about that. So there was a lot more talk about writing orders at this market, which, which is, I think what market used to be very much about. And we, we've sort of backed away from that in recent markets. But you definitely heard a lot more people just feeling like we're actually selling stuff, even if we're selling it to fewer people. So that's a good thing.
- [38:02]
C
You know, you mentioned the wafer buyers. They rolled in and out of town, most of them, before any of the rest of us even touched down at North Carolina. And I do think that that trend of really expanding the number of are walking this show also continues to contribute to this sense that nobody's here. You know, if, if a significant number of those large retailers want to get a jump on all their competitors, so they touch down on Tuesday and they leave by Saturday when the show officially opens. You don't see them in the streets, but they definitely left a meaningful impact in their wake. Same thing with a lot of designers who know that if you want to get your tag and get dibs on the best angle antiques, you can't show up on Friday. You had to be here two or three days ago.
- [38:45]
B
Oh, yeah, sorry. Bunny Williams got there before you because she, she flew into town days early and, and cleaned the place out. And I had so many designers say to me, oh, my God, the antiques, there's nothing left. There's nothing left. I was like, yeah, sorry. Bunny and her team got here early. You missed it.
- [39:01]
C
Right? But those people, those people registered for the show. Those people participated meaningfully in market. But the, the average, the average person walking the streets on Saturday or Sunday isn't gonna see them. And I think you can feel, but they're still making a pretty meaningful impact.
- [39:16]
A
Let's talk about the elephant in the room, the T word. I don't wanna make this whole show about tariffs, and I suspect it won't be. But we should check in. We're six or seven months into the tariff era. Is it still a hot topic? Do people still wanna talk about it? Are they kind of over tariffs? What was the tariff chatter at market?
- [39:33]
C
I don't know if, Dennis, you had the same experience, but every time someone saw the Business of Home team coming, they started talking about, oh, business of home wants to talk about tariffs. I will tell you that usually about two or three minutes into that conversation, you know, that executive would kind of say to you, but by the way, you're the first person who's asked me about tariffs. And I'd be like, one, I didn't ask. You brought it up. But two, you know, their customers weren't asking about tariffs at all. I think people were looking at the tags and saying, okay, the price is the price, and they were there to do business. And there was a lot of conversations with us about the fact that tariffs weren't a meaningful conversation with buyers at market. And it didn't matter to them necessarily how a manufacturer had gotten to that new price. They just wanted to know that there was a new price, that it was going to hold, and that they could present it to their client.
- [40:22]
A
Dennis, I know you had a lot of conversations with sort of the big manufacturers behind the scenes. I would imagine that for them, even if their customers weren't, you know, dying to talk about tariffs, they probably had to contend with them over the past few months to come up with price. I wonder what conversations were like with them about tariffs. If it was as. As calm as that. Behind the scenes, what do you think?
- [40:43]
B
Well, I mean, first of all, to piggyback on what Caitlin was just saying, so I moderated two different panels during High Point, and I made it clear to the audience before each of them got started that there would be no tariff conversation in either of these panel discussions. And the crowd was delighted. So I think people are. People are happy to move on from tariffs, but to your point, the CEO. CEOs, they can't move on from tariffs. And so everybody, again, wanted to tell me both how much they were paying in tariffs and some staggering numbers.
- [41:12]
C
Staggering.
- [41:12]
B
Hearing from CEOs, can we get a.
- [41:14]
A
Taste of what staggering is?
- [41:16]
C
Someone casually told me, they were like, oh, we got a $300,000 bill last week, and it's not like once a quarter, it's once a week. I think Dennis got some bigger numbers.
- [41:24]
B
Many people had been down to the Wayfair gathering, and people had been sharing, hey, how much are you paying in tariffs? How much are you paying? And the number were staggering. I mean, one of the furniture brands that I spoke to was spending more than $50 million on tariffs annually.
- [41:42]
A
I mean.
- [41:43]
B
Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, that's a pretty staggering number. But everybody had. I paid a million. I had a few million. I mean, there were some pretty staggering numbers when it came to tariffs. And everybody, again, getting back to the calculated message, everybody was strategizing around. Is this a line item that I'm just telling people right out of the gate, that acrylic table, you know what, it's got a tariff on it. Here it is. It's $175. And. And we're just going to call it out. But everybody was, you know, exhausted from it, to be honest. I mean, because the teams had really had to spend a lot of time getting things, getting things ready and factoring in what those numbers would be.
- [42:23]
C
I talked to a CEO a couple weeks ago who was saying that, you know, in this lead up to market, you look at how many times your merchandising team has repriced your. And there's a real loss, too, of productivity in other areas of your business, which I think is something that executives are really having to weigh. This idea that, you know, all of this energy and effort has been focused on trying to figure out how to price for all of these tariffs. And in, you know, an alternate universe where this hadn't happened, all of those people would have been really focused on moving your company forward.
- [42:57]
B
Well, and I think also taken away people's desire to make acquisitions, and the creative teams have been steining because everyone's had to focus so much on this. So I think, Caitlin, I completely agree. I think there's going to be an impact from this period of time, both in terms of how companies have grown or decided not to grow during this time, and also from the creative side.
- [43:22]
A
I'm going to limit myself to two more tariff questions, and then we'll move on. But I'm curious, it's obviously dangerous to try and predict, but did you guys get the sense of that companies had all made their big price increase right before market and that prices are going to be relatively stable, at least until the next tariff comes out, or did you get the sense that these were prices that they Locked in. And there's another hike coming in the not too distant future. Dennis, what do you think?
- [43:45]
B
Again, I think they had made the decision about how they're going to talk about it, but I think everybody was leaving themselves flexibility for whatever was coming next, because I think nobody felt certain that we have real clarity as to where this ends. So I think everybody was trying to come up with the language and the structure to say, here's what we know right now. Here's how we're going to be handling it and communicating it to you. But ultimately, prices in three months. Who can say?
- [44:15]
A
What about domestic manufacturers? They're the supposed beneficiaries of all of this. I've gone hunting for people who were happy about the tariff regime, and I kind of get the sense in the margins that there are some domestic manufacturers who are more and more excited about the possibilities here. Caitlin, did you talk to anyone who was seeing a positive impact from tariffs on their domestic business? What was your take on that?
- [44:37]
C
I think domestic manufacturers were definitely in higher spirits than those who are not domestic manufacturers. There's no question about that. A lot of them were, whether seriously or joking, talking about the disappearance of grade A through D fabrics and just this idea that all of a sudden your entry prices point was actually a grade F. You know, I think, you know, a lot of them looked at their fabric assortments and were like, well, whoops, you know, and everything kind of moved up a little bit in price point. And I think that was really the biggest challenge that they're grappling with. I don't know that any of them have seen a meaningful influx in new deals, new business, new partners quite yet. I think it still sounds like, you know, and Fred, you've reported this before. It's a lot of talk. It's a lot of conversations. It's a lot of curious retailers. I think they may, especially after this market, start to see that new business appear with new product. But for I think a lot of them, it sounds like it's really the retailers are finding it really complicated to reassure the lines that they have already. And so we're going to see maybe more work for those domestic manufacturers as the Creighton Barrels or whoever it is of the world start to roll out new stuff.
- [45:52]
B
So I visited Valdez Weavers, for example. Fred and Valdez Weavers, to their enormous credit, had come up with a linen that they can get within 50 cents of what it is coming out of China, and they can get it domestic. And you know what? It was beautiful. And when he shared that information with some of the big retailers. They were all over it. Yes, great. We'll have that. So, yes, there are some companies that are able to move. You sent me to visit the owner of Gat Creek, and I spent some time with Gat Caperton and talked about his business, you know, $25 million American furniture company. He definitely sees real opportunity coming from this. But he was very realistic that most people aren't going to be saying, all right, I'm going to shift everything over to America tomorrow and we're going to be a $50 million company next year. He says we're going to be a $50 million company, but probably not for another few years, even with all of this sort of tariff tailwind behind him. But he is having a lot more conversations, and I think a lot of companies that have that American offering are having more conversations. The same thing at Chaddock. They had a lot of flags, and there are a lot of indications that it's coming out of America. But nobody told me of a giant customer that wasn't doing business with them before that suddenly showed up and said, all my business is coming to you next market.
- [47:22]
A
I'm sure that's what's going to happen.
- [47:23]
B
Exactly.
- [47:24]
C
Watch this face.
- [47:25]
A
Let's move on from the T word into other hot topics at market. I'm curious. High points hottest nightclub, 313space. What was it made its debut, I guess, a couple years ago. It's the buzzy new building. What did it look like, this market? Caitlin, what do you think?
- [47:39]
C
I will say that High Point's hottest nightclub is probably the club in the new Bernhardt show room, but they threw another rager on Saturday night. But note, 313 space looked great. I think word has gotten out that it's where all the cool kids are. You know, this is its third market showing there. And what started as, you know, a lot of artisans, but a little bit of empty space. You know, it's had sort of this airy vibe. It's gotten a lot more condensed as more people want in. And there was a really interesting mix of kind of big brands and sort of anchor tenant mixed in with all of those smaller, more independent vendors. Designers definitely took note. Right. You walk through that building and you're not just talking to an artist anymore. You're also talking to some pretty serious brands with major showroom presence across the country. And I think there was sort of an acknowledgement that you need that mix probably to keep that building financially viable. But it also, it changed the voice Vibe. The vibe was still great. And there was some really cool stuff in there. Unique kitchens and baths. Built out several of its kitchens in there with Jess Weth. And it was beautiful. There were just some really incredible displays. You know, our friends at Pookie were there with a fun display and I always loved seeing Soil De Studio was there with their latest line of block printed textiles. So it was a really interesting. All sitting kind of on top of a pretty tremendous showing from Schwung downstairs.
- [49:07]
A
Dennis, did you make it to the Cool kids club at 313space? Were you there with your sunglasses and your backwards hat?
- [49:13]
B
I did. I had the cigarette just kind of dangling from my lips and it was great. No, it was a great energy. Everybody was eager to get over there. Many people hadn't been there yet and were sort of talking about, oh, I've got to get over there. I think again, the hospitality nature of that space is part of what makes it so welcoming and inviting. There's a wonderful wine bar, they've got the restaurant going, they've got, they're welcoming you in lots of different levels. There's cool stuff in there to be seen. And I think it definitely remains the big talk of High Point, don't you think, Caitlin?
- [49:48]
C
I do. And I think, you know, in a. I don't know how much more room they have to fit new vendors in, but I definitely, definitely got pulled aside by a lot of vendors in other sort of multi vendor spaces like Interhall or Suites at Market Square with people who said, you know, should I be there? There's a lot, yeah, watch that space. But there's, there's a lot of brands looking at what's happening over there, looking at the energy around that building and saying, I want in, you know, I want to be in a mix of brands that people are talking about like that.
- [50:20]
A
All right, so more musical chairs might be happening in the near future. Speaking of new things and things that didn't happen this year, two things that sort of caught my eye are the NKBA has a permanent home in High Point for the first time ever. And also, Shop Object appears to have, at least temporarily ended its experiment of having a space at High Point. So one new thing and one thing that went away. Kaitlyn, did you check out the nkba? What'd you think of it?
- [50:44]
C
I did. It was really interesting and smart. I think the NKBA came in, they brought a bunch of partner brands with them and they took over the entire first floor of Broad Hall. They put a big tent out in what used to be the front for a ton of great programming. And they were jam packed for all of those sessions. And then you walked into this really interesting space that really mixed all of the vendors in a pretty clever and artful way. So you would see, you know, a Cosentino surface with some lighting in front of it. There was a kitchen in there in this really cool jade green that had fabulous cabinets and blanco organization items and Bluestar appliances and Cosentino surfaces. Lutron automated shades over a vanity program. It was a really interesting way to meld all of these different brands, but also really plant a flag for the kitchen and bath category in High Point Market. And I think the reception shows just how much of an appetite there is for these products, for this kind of programming, for that information. When we talked to Bill Darcy, the head of NKBA earlier this year about the move, you know, he talked about the fact that, that maybe KBIS isn't, which is the NKBA's flagship show, isn't a go to destination for all of the more residential focused designers at High Point Market. And they just wanted to sort of introduce them to the K biz world. And I think, you know, if this market was any indication, there's such an appetite for that, it just seemed like a tremendous success to me.
- [52:15]
B
Can you imagine that pulling designers who otherwise wouldn't be going too high point to come? Because one of the conversations that I had a lot at High Point was what else can we do to get people here? This is two markets where attendance has felt soft in a row and there were a lot of conversations about what else do we need? And it can't just be the 313 space because there's not enough room in there for everyone to move in and turn that into the main attraction. So I'm wondering if you think this NKBA space could be a stimulation that brings people, a draw that brings people that wouldn't otherwise come.
- [52:55]
C
The short answer is yes, absolutely. The long answer is I think it's really easy to forget sometimes how many designers are really siloed in their area of expertise. I did an interview with Jean Stouffer a few weeks ago and I know you've talked to her about this before, Dennis, where, you know, she said that for so many, so many decades of her business, she was really specifically focused on kitchens, but then would work with often another interior designer to bring in maybe the lighting or the paint colors or the, the bar stools at the counter. And that when she started working with her daughter Grace, to add in that sort of Furnishing element. It really transformed her business. For a designer like that who can maybe get some of that kitchen and bath experience at High Point, but now has access to an entire wall world of furnishings and soft goods and can start to make those connections, that's a huge leg up for your business. And I think, conversely, designers who are intimidated by sort of the technical side maybe of the kitchen and bath world can start to get a taste of how they can use that to transform their business. One of the talks in the NKBA space was literally about driving profitability by taking on kitchen and bathroom renovation innovations. And I think that, to me, really encapsulates a lot of the opportunity as these two worlds that have really always kind of showed separately start to inch.
- [54:19]
A
Closer and closer together, I'm surprised the answer isn't more appearances by the Jimmy Buffett band at High Point Market. That seemed to be a clear draw for people who are on the fence. I bet. Honestly, I bet they were great. I'm sorry. I'm sad to miss that as much as anything.
- [54:32]
C
When the Fray the next night. Pre Millennial nostalgia.
- [54:36]
A
Okay. Exactly. Well, we kind of brushed over this, but Shop Object chose not to show or not to have a venue at High Point this year. I can speak from some experience. It was a little bit hard to get to the last time I was there. I thought it was cool that they were there, but it was a little bit hard to find. And some of the vendors were a little underwhelmed at the traffic that they got. I'm curious if you guys have any other intel beyond why Shop Object was not at Market this fall?
- [54:59]
C
I think that Market Square has really struggled to find its footing for the last almost decade. You know, that used to be the mainstay for all those heritage home group brands. And when they pulled out, you know, they were the huge draw that was the anchor tenant. And I'm not sure that there's anyone with that big enough gravitational pull to really lure the design community en masse to that building these days. You know, I don't know why. What was really driving the decision not to have Shop Object return, But I would imagine that it was just that it was so darn hard to get to. No matter how much wayfinding you did, you need that secret staircase in the Antique center to, like, really get there easily. And every time I show that to people, their minds are kind of blown. So I don't think that's super well known. But, you know, like, it was. It was hard to get to, you didn't get the foot traffic. And honestly, I do think that 313 space opened up with this neat vendor mix and kind of did it better. Yeah, you know, I think that really was the final nail in the coffin for the shop object experiment at market.
- [56:01]
A
It's never a good look if you have to, like, open it a secret bookcase to get through a cavern that leads you to your trade show. Maybe they'll come up with a new mix and come back. I want to quickly pivot and talk about. It's not a new story. That High Point has come to be dominated by the designer audience. Just this week, there was news of a couple of local retail shops going out of business. And it seems like the death of the furniture store, the rise of designers, is something we seem to always talk about. I'm wondering, were there any new. New twist to that story this week, Any new insight that you guys gleaned on that front? Dennis, what do you think?
- [56:35]
B
I felt like I had a lot more conversations with people who could get real with me and stop putting such a positive spin on those numbers. The death of retailers is not good for anyone in the furniture business. Let's just get that up front. Okay? So I think everybody has been, for these past several markets especially been trying to say, oh, this is such great news, and isn't it wonderful? And I get it. It's great that we're embracing designers and we're letting them come, and there are all sorts of incredible things that designers can do with companies and partnerships and trade programs and all of that. It's great. But you know what? The furniture industry needs retailers. Great, big retailers. So there was a lot more conversation about what are we going to do about that? Because it is. It is a problem. What do you think, Caitlin?
- [57:23]
C
Well, I think even just the registration numbers really illustrate who's coming and who's not. You know, it was all the big players in those large. That large retailer category. There were a lot of designers, and there wasn't. There weren't that many people in the middle. You know, they just weren't there. And if they were there, they weren't buying the way that they used to.
- [57:43]
A
Yeah, there's kind of a weird hollowing out. And, you know, Dennis, you asked the question, and I'm not sure. Certainly no one on this call has the answer, and I'm not sure anyone at High Point has the answer. So. So we're going to. We're going to find out what fills, you know, the middle of the market. Maybe it's quints. Maybe, maybe they'll be the ones to really.
- [57:57]
B
But I mean all of the things that we talked about earlier, the crowds on the street, the parking lots being full, the restaurants in the hotels, I mean all of these things where you used to have to get there early to get a spot, you don't, you don't have to do any of that anymore because those giant retailers just aren't there in that meaningful way. And it's impossible to think that that is not a long term challenge for this market.
- [58:27]
C
Parking lot vitality is my favorite unofficial market indicator. One parking attendant told me that his lot, the business was down 14% versus spring market in this lot. And you didn't have to get there by 9am to get a spot some days. Some of those prime lots never put that lot full sign out. They were taking your $20 all day long.
- [58:47]
A
All right, let's talk about furniture. We put it off curious just on a top line level. One of the sort of stories we keep coming back to is it feels like there hasn't really been a high point in a while where there was a lot of new product, a lot of new debuts was this finally that long awaited market where everybody came out with a ton of new stuff.
- [59:05]
C
Caitlin There was a lot to see this market in a way that was really encouraging and pretty exciting. I don't know that there was a sort of slam dunk collection that was on everybody's lips, but I think as you made your way from manufacturer to manufacturer manufacturer, it was fairly consistent. You know, we saw a lot of that return to traditional design is taking hold of the marketplace. And I think interestingly, a lot of the more heritage brands at market were dipping back into their archive and resurrecting pieces that had been a hit in the 70s or the 80s or the 90s. You saw a lot of people talking about sort of this return to their, their bestsellers that maybe we haven't seen in a couple decades. And I will say that the first time someone said that to me and the second time someone said that to me, I very cynically was like, well, that's a really good way to save on product development. But I actually, the more that we saw that was really nodding to that heritage, the more I started to really appreciate that that is actually really meeting the moment. You know, I talked to Verne Gip, had a very menswear inspired collection collection at Trend for Fabricut. And he was talking about the fact that a lot of his clients want something that feels safe, that feels familiar. That feels secure. They want it to feel fresh. But there is this. This yearning to return to something familiar. And I think we saw that in just so many, you know, traditional details like carved wood. Walnut is making a comeback. You know, it was just this. It was warm, it was familiar, and it was really elevated, elegant and chic.
- [60:47]
B
Yeah. I mean, I think the, the number of skirted seats that I saw at High Point skyrocketed. Right. I mean, I think, and I'm happy to report, Fred, that the amount of.
- [61:00]
A
I know what's coming. Yes. Right.
- [61:02]
B
Dramatic downturn. Right, Caitlin?
- [61:04]
C
I mean, I mean, yeah. And we're talking like tapestry, inspired weaves, bullion, fringe.
- [61:10]
B
Yes.
- [61:10]
C
Straight stripes, scallops, ruffles, boxes, contrast welts.
- [61:14]
B
There was piping, not all of it well placed piping. And I. And my FYI to people is, you know, just if you're going to put that piping on there, get someone with a steady hand, because there was definitely some, some drunk piping going on in some of these. Some of these.
- [61:30]
A
I'm going to hear who's on blast after we stop hitting record here.
- [61:33]
B
But, but I, but I did think, to Caitlin's point, I mean, I think there was. And we got a sense of this at last. Market, but there was even more of it. The leaning into traditional, leaning into some of the archival pieces. The other thing that so many places had, there were a lot of game.
- [61:50]
C
Tables, everyone's playing mah Jongg, and furniture makers have risen to the occasion.
- [61:56]
A
Yes.
- [61:56]
B
I think Chadk was having somebody who was going to be teaching you to.
- [61:59]
C
Play that mahjong room was so great.
- [62:02]
B
I thought that was brilliant. And, you know, interestingly, Hickory Chair had announced that they were doing this collab with Liberty of Life. And honestly, it completely fit in with the vibe of Market. And this was a big step because those are some bold patterns on furniture. But it very much felt at home. And it sounds like some of it's going to be making its way to the floors of Scully and Scully. So, I mean, I guess it worked. So, I mean, there definitely was. And Caitlin, I don't know, some people said that this was in response to. To all of the anxiety that everyone's feeling.
- [62:39]
A
Right.
- [62:40]
B
Whether it's around tariffs, whether it's just around uncertainty in general. And the vibe from the warmth. I don't want to say maximalism, because it wasn't that. No, right. It was just cozy and warm and I mean, what do you think?
- [62:57]
C
I think it was very nostalgia fueled too. I think one of my favorite surprises was actually rounding the corner in Vanguard, and they had this Super 70s inspired moment with all this low slung furniture, big mirrored accent tables with big cylindrical legs. It was. It was really sexy and fun and comfortable, but. But interesting and elevated. And I think there were a lot of moments like that. This was a colorful market. This was a saturated pattern, happy, joyful market. Just in terms of the way that the show showrooms were merchandised. I talked to the president of Taylor King, and she said that she actually really gave her merchandising team free reign to kind of push the limits of what might feel safe for the Taylor King brand. And, you know, she said, you know, you know, when you're taking a risk, you know, when you're sort of riding that edge of, you know, will my customer tolerate this? Accept this? And she said that everyone who came through the door had such a sense of gratitude for the inspiration, for the joy, for the energy that that merchandising had brought. I think that was out in full.
- [64:06]
A
Force, comfortable style for an uncomfortable world.
- [64:10]
C
I like that.
- [64:12]
A
I'm curious. Let's just do a quick around the world. Any other highlights in terms of product? You guys have mentioned a lot of stuff that you really liked. I'm just curious if anything has slipped through the radar thus far on the podcast that you want to give a shout out to Caitlin, what do you think? What? Really just.
- [64:26]
C
Well, we would be remiss, not to mention the very large debut of the Margaritaville collection at Hooker. It's been. It's something they've been talking about. It's something that's been in development for a really long time. And, you know, they're really tapping into an exceedingly strong, robust business in kind of the Margaritaville empire. I am not a parrot head. This is not my. Like. Is that right?
- [64:52]
B
Shock news flash.
- [64:56]
A
This is.
- [64:57]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [64:59]
C
So I was a little bit less familiar with the visual vocabulary that might be on display here. Right. And I was a little bit worried about walking into, like, an island fever dream. And there were definitely kitschy moments in this collection. There's a pair of tables that kind of nest together that are in the shape of flip flops, kind of like scream big vacation. But it was a really well done collection. They divided it into four different zones. One was very like, island ocean vacation. But there was another that was really elevated coastal. There was a kind of khaki and olive desert oasis space. And then there was a really neutral, kind of urban inspired section of the showroom that was really about how Jimmy Buffett himself Lived in his own. And I definitely walked in thinking, oh, no. And then we walked in, and it was. It was a really lovely surprise.
- [65:56]
A
Dennis, did you make a trip to Margaritaville? Anything else? You saw that?
- [66:00]
B
Well, you know, and listen. And that's a big. That's a big, important launch for them. So I hope it was well received. What was interesting, too, was to see a lot of introductions that I. That I felt just were executed well and made a lot of sense. Amanda Lindroth did a collection for Chelsea House, and. And it was completely on brand, I thought, and made total sense. And I thought that some of the other introductions at market really just made sense and seemed very on brand. What did you think, Caitlin?
- [66:33]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think actually Margaritaville and that Amanda Linderoth collection are the perfect. Never thought I would put those together, but, you know, it's the perfect. It's the perfect. That moment where you're like, oh, of course. Or like, why hasn't this always existed? Or this may. Makes so much sense for the marketplace. And I do think you're right. You know, I think Courtney Bishop had that great rug line at Amati Carpets. Leanne Ford had a rug line with Laloy. There were just a lot of partnerships that came out that were smart, that were interesting, and that, I think, really met the moment in terms of what designers are looking for.
- [67:04]
A
We're getting to the end here, but I just want to quickly do a quick round the horn and hear about any sort of memorable moments. Now is the time for gossip. Now is the time for salacious details. I heard that the electricity went out at the proximity. Did that actually happen?
- [67:18]
C
Oh, yes, it did.
- [67:18]
A
Oh, my God. What a High Point legend there. This is for listeners who don't know or this who don't know. This is the hotel that all the, you know, the bigwigs go to during High Point. And the power went out, and I'm sure that was quite, quite the scene. Was anyone on hand to report? Live from the powerless proxy, I would.
- [67:36]
C
Say that our own Jeff Barish, who is on our sales team, had moved in. That's on Sunday morning. He had left his bag, hadn't even checked in yet, when he got a text message that said, no power.
- [67:50]
A
Where were you?
- [67:51]
C
Yeah, I was at dinner with him. On the Sunday night, we hosted a really lovely dinner with Bolen Branch and a bunch of designers. And everyone at the table was sort of frantically like, is it on yet? Is it on yet? Is it on yet? And there was sort of this, like, smattering of like excitement and then kind of like almost like a full room cheer as everyone started to get the text message that the power was back on.
- [68:11]
A
I wanted to I wonder what future stylistic trends will be able to tie back to the night the proxy lost power. Dennis, were there any kind of notable moments for you? Fun run ins, parties, gossip? What will stick in your mind?
- [68:23]
B
Well, I definitely got the sense that we're going to be talking about some M and A action post market.
- [68:29]
A
Sounds like someone met with the Stumps, is that right?
- [68:32]
B
Well I mean it's. You definitely got the feeling that again while everyone tried to put a good spin on market, some people needed market to be better than it was and you definitely got that sense. I had conversations with people that suggested that people will be reassessing where they are after this market and I think again whether Tim Stump there's a direct line to Tim and Bo and they just call right away. I definitely think we're going to be hearing and I don't mean to make light of it because I think some people really have to make some long term decisions here. But as I say two sort of softer than people would have liked markets back to back leave some companies just thinking that they really need to reassess. And I think also I think a lot of people were thinking to the conversation about no longer having shop object or no longer having some of these at least destinations where there was a different kind of product. Might the NKBA be the answer to bringing more new people people here? Are there more things that we need to do to bring other people to market? There's still the elusive very high end designer is still not coming to market in a meaningful way. And I had a lot of conversations with people about whether there needs to be even greater hospitality on offer or there need to be more unique designs and inter and introductions for people. A lot of people wishing that some of their really top clients were coming to market in a more meaningful way and what might bring them here.
- [70:10]
C
Not to add to the sort of dour outlook, but I also think you know that the people who came to market this time have jobs right now they're busy. They were sourcing for those projects but a lot of those designers were starting to whisper about the fact that their pipeline of new work is pretty quiet and so that's also going to be something maybe this market and last market were softer than expected. But all of those designers who don't have new work coming in right now, that's the order they don't place six months from now at next spring's market. And so I'm not sure that the outlook for the third market to say this is the one, this will solve all our problems. I don't think it's smart to hang your hat on April as the thing to pull you out of trouble if you're sort of wary about the future.
- [70:59]
A
I'm going to say those two answers were very calculated. Now let's get an optimistic answer to end the show. Can we get a little bit of sunshine before we head out, Dennis?
- [71:09]
B
Well, I mean, again, a lot of people, I don't want to overstate, a lot of people were in very high spirits. And it is always a pleasure. Good market or bad, it is always a pleasure to spend time at High Point. Absolutely. And I got to reconnect with, with a lot of great people and catch up. So for me, it was an absolute pleasure.
- [71:32]
C
I would agree. And I think designers come to High Point to shop, but you also hope that they come to be inspired. And I think there are a certain, there are a handful of showrooms who really leaned into the inspirational side of their brand at this market, and it was wildly successful. It brought a sense of abundance and genuine joy that maybe has been missing from the general atmosphere for the last couple markets. And one, I hope they double down and do it again in the spring. But I hope that more of their friends join them in really taking risks and showcasing just what all is possible with their product.
- [72:11]
A
Well, I hope this podcast conversation brought abundance and joy to all our listeners. I've certainly enjoyed it abundantly. Dennis, thanks for being here. Hope to have you back again sometime.
- [72:20]
B
A pleasure. I hope to come back on the show.
- [72:23]
A
Caitlin, thanks. Thanks for being here.
- [72:25]
C
Absolutely. Thanks for having me.
- [72:31]
B
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [72:39]
A
A couple things caught my eye. We were talking about Wayfair's earnings earlier on the show. I cannot wait for first dibs earnings because that stock has. It's also been on a tear. It's up some crazy amount over the past month. I know it's still, you know, you know, three bucks, 350 or something, which is, you know, far off its highs. But there's clearly something happening that's making investors excited about First Dip. So I cannot wait to find out what it is. And I'm sure we'll talk about it on the show, the other thing is a little wonky and kind of nerdy, but, you know, hear me out. You know, there's been some speculate, you know, the Supreme Court is going to weigh in on whether a lot of the tariffs are actually legal or not pretty, pretty soon. And most people are kind of betting that they're going to say that they are legal and it's going to be as you were. But there's some speculation that, you know, the Supreme Court is going to rule against the tariffs and companies are going to sue and get their tariff money back from the federal government. Now. Seems like a little bit of a long shot, but it's enough of a possibility that there's actually this financial maneuver on Wall street where some people are buying future tariff refunds at like 20 cents on the dollar. People are basically betting they're like, basically buying the tariff refund of like, Walmart, for example, for, for a small fee. So it's just funny to see the kind of gamesmanship and, you know, how these crazy, you know, policies play out on a high finance level and to see people. There are some people betting, betting that the tariffs are illegal. I don't. I'm not sure I would join them, but it was kind of a funny little. Funny little story.
- [74:00]
B
Yeah, that's going to be a fun one to watch and we'll have to see. And to your point about first dibs, those, those shares have moved so dramatically. It's. It's going to be terribly disappointing if there isn't something exciting going on because something they've discovered.
- [74:15]
A
Quantum computing. They've made a major breakthrough in quantum computing.
- [74:19]
B
I hope so.
- [74:21]
A
What got your eye this week, Dennis?
- [74:22]
B
Well, first, what caught my eye was right before the show, we got the news that Bobby Bonet has been named the new president of Sandow Design Grow Group. Congratulations, Bobby. Bobby was very involved on the podcast side and the marketing side over there at Sandow, and now he's got a podcast.
- [74:40]
A
Podcast guy, yeah, he's.
- [74:42]
B
He's got some podcasts and he's got that surround studio that they do over there. Worked with Jeremiah Brent on his podcast, but. But now he's really going to have his hands full. He's gonna be overseeing the sales and marketing of Jeer Interior Design and Lux and Metropolis and Design Milk. They've got a lot of things going on over there at Sandow, so a great big job for him. And congratulations, Bobby. Eager to catch up with him about this new role. I wish him the best. The other thing that caught my Eye Fred that I wanted to talk about was one of my favorite High Point moments. Didn't get to talk about it earlier in the recap show, but there was a. There was a party that was being thrown. My friends at the Experts sent me a note saying, oh, be sure to come Friday night for this party that we're doing at prb. Truthfully, I wasn't that familiar with what PRB was, but I was like, oh, sorry, I can't come. But what it turns out PRB is, is this fabulous vintage space that is in the beloved 313 building at High Point Kids Club. Exactly where all the cool kids are hanging out. And so I get to the PRB space. Finally I get over there. Aha. Sorry. I'm so sorry that I missed the event. I understand. It was this cool event at this guy's house, and he said, oh, well, hi, you know, I'm Michael. I'm the owner, and it was actually at my house, and I'd love to drive you over to my house right now. And I said, okay, sure. So we get in his car, we drive it over his house. He just bought Thayer Coggin's old house. Those of you that don't know Thor Coggan, the incredible furniture designer and maker. And it's this. It's this amazing looking house which he has outfitted with this incredible array of vintage furniture that PRB sells. I think they have like over a thousand vintage light fixtures and just an incredible array of vintage furniture. And. And seeing it in this house was just sort of breathtaking. And I was. I was thrilled to spend time here. He was incredibly generous, never having met me before. Turns out he's a fan of the show, which was nice, and drove me over to the house, saw the whole thing, and now I. I'm gonna forever be talking to people about prb.
- [76:50]
A
Yeah, PRB is a very cool and kind of under the radar, very impressive company, but my main concern is that it seems really easy to kidnap you, Dennis. This is just.
- [76:59]
B
I think people love you.
- [77:00]
A
I've got a great chandelier. I listen to the podcast Pop It Up.
- [77:05]
B
That is all it took. And Michael, I'm not going to share with people the, the state of your car. I'm not gonna. I'm not going to. But I, you know, I got into his vehicle with. With his wife and daughter in tow and, And a designer who wanted to come along as well.
- [77:19]
A
So this is sounding. This is sounding.
- [77:21]
B
Is it sounding safer now? It was actually.
- [77:23]
A
It was a.
- [77:24]
B
It was a great experience. And, and Michael, thank you so much for, for sharing all of that with me. It was, you're going to be hearing all a lot about prb and you're going to be seeing this house and his incredible collection because I'm sure that many publications are going to want to share it. I'm sure for many, it was the highlight of their time in High Point. And it is a reminder of just another cool space that's there in the, in the 313 building. So be sure to look for that and, and be sure to follow prb. All right. That's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicolaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.