Podcast Summary

Business of Home Podcast – The Thursday Show:

What’s the Future of Design Centers? Plus: Pantone’s Controversial Color of the Year

Date: December 11, 2025
Host: Dennis Scully
Guests: Fred Nicolaus (Executive Editor, BOH), Michael Phillips (President, Jamestown)

Episode Overview

This episode mixes news analysis on economic developments, design industry controversies, and evolving trends in marketing and education, before diving into a deep exploration of the future of design centers with Jamestown’s Michael Phillips. Key topics include the Federal Reserve’s latest rate cut, student loan changes affecting architects, the Instagram vs. portfolio debate, Pantone’s divisive “Color of the Year,” and the transformation of design centers in the US.

News Recap & Roundtable

With Dennis Scully and Fred Nicolaus

[00:32] Economic Update – Federal Reserve’s Interest Rate Cut

• Fed cuts rates by a quarter point to respond to economic strain and weak employment numbers.

  • Jerome Powell, Fed Chair, expressed uncertainty about the future:

    “We really have no idea about where things are going.” (Dennis Scully, 04:48)

• Mixed reactions on the impact:

  • Some board members wanted deeper cuts; others wanted none.
  • Not expected to meaningfully revive the housing market or lower mortgage rates significantly.
  • “Without some kind of massive government stimulus program reminiscent of the GI Bill after World War II, housing prices are not coming down dramatically from the Federal Reserve cutting rates by a quarter of a percentage point.” (Dennis Scully, 07:29)

• Market and consumer spending:
  Reports of a strong Black Friday, with optimism for housing spend to pick up in 2026.

[09:48] Architecture No Longer a “Professional” Degree: Student Loan Controversy

• Dept. of Education decision: Architecture, nursing, and physical therapy removed from the “professional degree” category, reducing federally backed student loans to $20K/year (vs $50K for professional tracks).
  • “My mom’s a nurse, Fred, and she’s pretty upset about that aspect of it...” (Dennis Scully, 09:48)
• Industry Reaction:
  • Seen as both a response to tuition inflation and as detrimental to future architects, who may have to turn to costly private loans or skip grad school.
  • “There will just be fewer architects because it’ll be so much more expensive or difficult to get into these programs...” (Fred Nicolaus, 13:24)
  • Interior design has always been “non-professional” for loan purposes; this new policy has broader implications across design education.

[16:05] The Vertical Video Dilemma: Portfolio vs. Personality

• Trends: Instagram’s shift from photo to video content challenges designers to become performers.
  • “When the film industry transitioned from silent movies to talkies, it really changed which actors were popular...” (Fred Nicolaus, 16:35)
• Industry debate:
  • Some, like Dan Fink and Andre Malone, resist the pressure to perform, preferring their work to speak for itself.
  • Others leverage big personalities to build huge followings, sometimes overshadowing the quality of their work.
  • “You become a big star on social media, all sorts of other opportunities and doors open for you...” (Dennis Scully, 22:25)
  • Fred points out social platforms are “equalizers” for lesser-known designers, but the industry is still catching up to algorithmic trends.

[24:27] Pantone’s Color of the Year: “Cloud Dancer” (White) Sparks Backlash

• Announcement: Pantone named a shade of white their 2026 Color of the Year, provoking strong reactions.
  • “Some people burning their Pantone books, strong messages being sent.” (Dennis Scully, 24:58)
• Criticisms:
  • Seen as lazy, recessionary, or—by some—racially insensitive.
  • Designers wanted a return to color and energy. Some suspect it's a PR stunt or reflect a lack of awareness:
    • “Surely they cooked this up as this brilliant PR scheme...” (Dennis Scully, 25:06)
  • “This felt a little bit weird. Like, last year was mocha mousse, which felt like, I’m sure some people were sort of bored by that, but it felt like it really hit the mark...” (Fred Nicolaus, 26:38)

[30:51] Remembering Frank Gehry

• Legendary American architect Frank Gehry passed away at 96.
  • Known for the Guggenheim Bilbao and his transformative impact on global architecture.
  • “What an amazing life... it’s kind of impressive and it’s something you can only sort of marvel at.” (Fred Nicolaus, 31:48)

Main Interview: Michael Phillips, President of Jamestown

“What’s the future of design centers?” [34:01 to 69:58]

[34:08] Jamestown’s History & Portfolio

• 42-year-old real estate company active across the US, Europe, and South America.
• Known for properties like Chelsea Market, Industry City, and the Boston Design Center.

[35:37] Boston Design Center & Industry Trends

• Revitalization through infrastructure updates, new retail environments, and blending trade/public access.
• Growth of districts that combine home, lifestyle, and fashion brands.

[37:41] Rethinking Showroom Access

• Michael advocates for lowering physical entry barriers at showrooms while maintaining trade pricing structures.
  • “Have a retail price and a trade price and be willing to engage and provide the support when a consumer comes and wants to do business with them.” (Michael Phillips, 37:41)
• Highlights shifts in consumer empowerment due to social media and the necessity for showrooms to adapt.

[39:41] The Dakota (South Florida) & Design Centers' Future

• Jamestown took over Dakota to restore its status as a design hub.

• Sees value in maintaining large, multi-brand buildings for “critical mass, shopability, and inspiration”—especially for categories like fabric that require broad, multi-line selection.

  “The critical mass for shopability and for inspiration and for engagement is important. I think the design, the Fortress Design center model, is really important as a part of the ecosystem.” (Michael Phillips, 40:05)

• Facing skeptics: Michael acknowledges the fragmentation of markets (e.g., Miami, West Palm, Naples), but believes there is room for different models and wants Jamestown to foster a sense of community.

[43:08] Vitality, Colocation, & Role of Landlords

• The importance of agency and stewardship:
  “Good land management is about nourishing the soil... and it’s the same thing in any business, in any activity, whether it’s your garden...or a real estate business. Showing up is half the battle.” (Michael Phillips, 47:05)

[48:43] Expanding Footprint: Houston, D&D Building, and Beyond

• Jamestown is interested in acquiring or participating in the management of other struggling design centers nationwide.

• Michael highlights the opportunity in domestic manufacturing & distribution as tariffs change the calculus for US-based production.

  “To have more things made in America is not a bad thing. And... if the interior design showroom industry can be great supporters of that, it’s only a positive outcome.” (Michael Phillips, 50:23)

[51:37] The Charleston Design District

• Building a new “Charleston Design District” on the city’s navy yard remnants, blending local brands (Urban Electric, Fritz Porter) and national names (Schumacher, Kravit).
• “It’s not about just exporting what is from Charleston. It’s about creating this global design conversation...” (54:33)

[56:00] Regional Model Evolution

• Fragmenting demand and consumer habits are pushing companies to serve markets beyond traditional centers; Atlanta no longer serves alone as the southern hub.
• Michael sees room for pop-ups and satellite showrooms as regional markets densify.

[58:48] D&D Building: Can It Be Saved?

• Michael is bullish:
  “I think it’s the single most dynamic design center in America. I think you’d find a large number of people who would say, if it was fixed tomorrow, they would go right back there.” (58:48)
• Hospitality and energy will drive revitalization; Michael hints at his own concepts for a new restaurant as an example.

[60:25] LA & Pacific Design Center

• Acknowledges the decline and infrastructural issues, but insists LA’s rich street retail scene leaves room for well-run design centers to exist alongside.
• Sees opportunity in events, street energy, and partnerships.

[62:26] Industry Resilience

• Despite economic challenges, many design brands report banner years.
• Michael attributes this to long project timelines and a “renewed commitment” to home post-pandemic.

[64:57] Design Shows, Global Trends, and Inspiration

• Discusses the wave of trends: Milan’s fashion/home mix, Copenhagen’s “moment,” Paris always remaining classic.
• Sees global events as cyclical inspiration drivers; hyper-locality and craftsmanship (like faux boiserie) as exciting trends.

[66:22] The Persistence of Design Centers

• Even with real estate and infrastructure issues, designers value the quality of engagement and opportunity present in design centers.
• “If you live in New York, you live with compromise. I could replace [my doors], but why would I want to get rid of a 75-year-old terrace door if I can just rebuild it? And that’s...what I would say about the D&D and all its flaws.” (Michael Phillips, 66:22)

[67:28] Consumer Access & Designer Brands

• Brands remain cautious about direct-to-consumer, but more have “retail to the trade” spaces.
• Success likely lies in hybrid models, designer-on-call programs, and brand recognition driving consumer demand.
  • “There will always be value for a designer.” (Michael Phillips, 69:46)

Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• On the Fed:
  “Jerome Powell...said, yeah, you know, we’re just trying to read the economy as best we can. We really have no idea about where things are going.” (Dennis Scully, 04:48)
• On Social Media:
  “When the film industry transitioned from silent movies to talkies, it really changed which actors were popular... and I think you see these changes in media and how technological developments change winners and losers.” (Fred Nicolaus, 16:35)
• On Pantone:
  “Some people burning their Pantone books, strong messages being sent.” (Dennis Scully, 24:58)
• On Design Centers:
  “Showing up is half the battle.” (Michael Phillips, 47:05)
• On Industry Adaptation:
  “I think there’s plenty of room for everything, and I think it is about the densification of regions.” (Michael Phillips, 56:47)

News Briefs & Industry Eye-Catchers

• [70:10] Ashley Furniture partners with Perplexity AI for shopping integration, signaling trend toward AI-powered retail.
• [71:29] Fun callouts: Dan Rosen reviews Kendall Jenner’s home (“unfortunately, I actually really like this,” 71:29) and Michael Diaz Griffith guests on the Middlebrow podcast, discussing antiques and youth in design.

Episode Themes & Takeaways

• The interior design world is in a state of transition—from how designers market themselves online, to the composition and purpose of design centers, to how education and economic shakeups ripple through the industry.
• Design centers aren’t dying but evolving, focusing on flexibility, community, hospitality, and both trade and public engagement.
• Controversy—whether over a color, an algorithm, or an educational policy—often signals larger industry inflection points about inclusivity, access, and creativity.
• Despite challenges, opportunities abound, especially for those prepared to innovate, adapt to new models, and focus on authentic community building.