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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: What's the future of design centers? Plus: Pantone's controversial Color of the Year
01:13:41
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, Michael Phillips, the president of Jamestown, joins the show to discuss the future of design centers.
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- [00:07]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be speaking with Michael Phillips of Jamestown about the future of design centers. But first we're going to catch up on the news, including another rate cut from the Fed, Pantone's controversial Color of the Year. And what matters more for designers, their portfolio or their personality. To do all that, joined by Business of Home's executive editor, Fred Nicolaus. Hi, Fred.
- [00:36]
B
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:37]
A
Great. How you doing?
- [00:38]
B
Good to see you. At the annual Business of Home holiday party. It was our. Gosh, how many times have we.
- [00:44]
A
20Th, the 30th, we've done exactly so many years. It's one of the few times I get to see Fred. I was explaining to someone the other day. Oh, do you and Fred record in person? No, no, we usually see each other at the holiday party and it's great.
- [00:58]
B
And the holiday party is not a venue for recording. There's far too much gossip flinging around. All of it. Uncon confirmed.
- [01:05]
C
Exactly.
- [01:05]
B
Too many hot takes on the Color of the Year. It's not for public consumption. Anyway, let's look back on Monday's episode, an interview with interior designer Dan Fink. Good conversation.
- [01:15]
A
Yes, indeed. Dan Fink, whose career could have gone in any number of directions, bioethics just being one of them, but, but he ends up working with some tech dudes, it sounds like, and, and ultimately they become clients and he becomes.
- [01:35]
B
Yeah, I mean, being a personal assistant to a tech mogul is not the traditional on ramp to a great interior design career, but Dan made it work. I'm always interested to hear from designers who have worked a lot in Silicon Valley because I always expect them to be like, and then I use this algorithm to have some sort of crazy tech backing of their business. But I think Dan is actually an example of somebody who's all about old school craft and really diving deep on everything he does. And he was talking about how he tries to stay away from technology and stay away from social media. And you know, I think that's probably true of a lot of his Silicon Valley clients. They want to leave it at the office. So I don't know, I always love that kind of voyeuristic glimpse into, into what goes on in the Bay Area. What'd you take away from the conversation?
- [02:15]
A
Yeah, I very much agree and I think it relates to, to some of what we'll be talking about later on the, on the show. I think he has some very, very specific feelings around tech and also just how one presents themselves to the world and whether or not a priority for him. He doesn't feel he needs to be in front of the camera in a big way, but he feels let the work speak for itself. And I wonder if more people are feeling that way and would agree with him. I think perhaps there's far more than we realize in this day and age.
- [02:50]
B
Not us, though.
- [02:53]
We do a lot of speaking for ourselves.
- [02:56]
A
Exactly. Our speaking is the work. That's the thing.
- [02:59]
B
There we go.
- [03:01]
A
Hopefully it does speak for itself. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news.
- [03:11]
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- [04:29]
And we're back. First up for Red, we're talking the Fed.
- [04:33]
B
Where else to start the show, the Federal Reserve lowered rates by a quarter point today, bringing down borrowing costs amid broader economic strain. This call just ended, actually, right before we started recording. Did you listen in? What did you make of the news coming out of the Federal Reserve?
- [04:48]
A
I did listen in and as usual, Jerome Powell in his dramatic put it all out on the table way said, yeah, you know, we're just trying to read the economy as best we can. We really have no idea about where things are going.
- [05:06]
B
I don't know if that's a totally accurate impression of Jerome Howell. He's not quite so slacker. No slackery about.
- [05:13]
A
No, no. I think he outlined he outlined the various challenges around trying to get a handle on where things are going and suggested that the the recent weakness in employment is the is the main reason for bringing rates down once again, but no clear indication of aggressive rate cuts to come in the future, which I think aligns well with the data that we're. That we're seeing at this point.
- [05:42]
B
Yeah, I mean, just as sort of like a quick primer. You know, the Federal Reserve changes borrowing costs, basically trying to, on one hand fight inflation, on the other hand make sure that people still have jobs. And right now, it's a really weird time. I mean, it's even weirder. But because of the government shutdown, we don't have all the data we normally would have. You know, the general presumption is that inflation is still higher than they want it to be. It's. What's the benchmark they want it to be 2%, and it hasn't been there for like, five years or something like that. It's kind of crazy.
- [06:08]
A
Exactly. Yeah. And in his heart of hearts, I think you can tell that Jerome Powell is really struggling with that because you're not hitting your mark month after month, and you're the guy in charge of hitting that mark. And he has to come out and say, well, inflation is hotter, but once again, we're going to cut rates for the third time this year, when he sort of feels like we really don't have inflation where it's supposed to be. But he's getting, as we know, an awful lot of political pressure, and a lot of people are suggesting that rates should be far lower. We had one dissent who felt that the rate cut should have been a half a point instead of a quarter. And we had two people on the Fed board who thought that with inflation where it is, there's certainly no reason to be cutting. So he's getting a lot of mixed signals and mixed messages, and it's. It's not a position I'd want to be in. Fred, I don't know about you.
- [07:01]
B
Yeah, it's a confusing time. There's a lot of signals going in both directions now, I guess. What should we take away from the fact that the key interest rate is now down to 3.5 to 3.75, certainly lower than it's been in a minute. Is this going to loosen up the mortgage market? Is this going to be the boon that the housing market needs to really get started and give a lot of designers jobs? What do you think?
- [07:23]
A
I want to say yes, Fred, to make all those designers out there.
- [07:25]
B
I kind of set you up. I'm sorry, I set you up to be a bummer.
- [07:29]
A
Go ahead, Dennis. Bring the room down with what you really think. Listen, the truth is, I honestly think that without some Kind of massive government stimulus program reminiscent of the GI Bill after World War II. Housing prices are not coming down dramatically from the Federal Reserve cutting rates by a quarter of a percentage point. It's just not gonna happen. And so will mortgage rates hopefully tick down from this. Yes, but that in and of itself is not gonna down. That is not going to restimulate the housing market in the way that we would like to see. And I think that people are going to have to come together at some point and discuss what really is the solution there. Because it still is a huge problem in the short term. This is as good as we're going to get for a while. And maybe other forces in the economy will be strong enough to offset what continues to be a very challenging housing market.
- [08:30]
B
Mortgages don't just automatically go down because the Federal Reserve cuts their number. They're tied to something called the treasury rate, which is how much, basically it costs how much money the government will pay you back for taking out a loan. And right now those numbers are actually going up. So there's no sign, as you said, that this is going to magically solve the housing market. But I do think that people have been calling for an interest rate cut for a while. A lot of people on the business community, people who want to borrow money to do a new project or take out a new initiative, have been calling for this. It does make it easier for companies to borrow money. Maybe they will spend some of that money on interior design. I'm thinking maybe this has a positive knock on effect for sort of the contract side of the industry. I'm speculating a little bit here, but certainly this is something people have been asking for. The stock market seem to like it. So I don't want this to be too much of a gloomy day. I will say just one little note of optimism. We had a bunch of retailers and brands talk about how Black Friday went for them. Our producer Caroline Burke and my colleague Aidan wrote a great story about that. And generally speaking, people were really happy with how Black Friday went. They were all like, people seem to be spending not only on gifts, but on their homes. They were all taking that as a positive sign that maybe finally housing is going to pick back up and people are going to start spending on their homes in a big way in 2026. So I'm just going to say from the pages of Business at Home, to God's ears, to God's eyes, and hopefully we'll get that big bounce back.
- [09:49]
A
Well, I love the optimism and I hope that it Plays out, because certainly that would be great for the whole industry. And so I certainly want that as. Moving on, we're gonna talk about a controversy in the world of architecture. Last month, the Department of Education made major changes to how federal student loans would be awarded. The agency decided that architecture, along with careers like nursing and physical therapy, would no longer be considered a professional degree. My mom's a nurse, Fred, and she's pretty upset about that aspect of it, I can assure you she's with the architects in their dismay around all of this.
- [10:27]
B
But what about podcasters? Is that still a professional?
- [10:30]
A
Are we professionals? I'll leave that to the audience.
- [10:33]
B
Right, that's up for serious debate. Another controversy on that one. Yeah, I mean, this made a lot of headlines at the time, sort of understandably, because when you see that the Department of Education no longer considers architects professionals, it seems really insulting. And maybe, fair enough, it does have kind of a whiff of a little bit being insulting. This is actually a lot nerdier than that, though, maybe still very impactful, which is that the Department of Education has basically been redefining the way that students can take out loans from the federal government to go to graduate school. Now before, for about a decade or maybe a couple decades, you could qualify up until the cost of tuition. And the speculation has basically been that that has made schools raise tuitions a lot because they know the federal government will pay for it. And so we're seeing like out of control tuition. And this policy is, you know, ostensibly about cutting that. So the federal government is going to put a limit on how much it'll loan students. Ideally, the goal is that it will, you know, stop this tuition inflation and people won't get into crazy debt to go to grad school. Now the problem is they put a. They put a pretty harsh limit on it. So non professional programs will capped at $20,000 and professional degrees will be capped at $50,000. So by labeling architectural and non professional program, that means architecture students will only be able to borrow $20,000 a year from the federal government at a time in which top schools are like 60 and higher. So this really changes the math.
- [11:51]
A
Well, exactly. And we should point out, as you did in the piece, that interior designers have been considered non professional all along. So nothing changes.
- [12:01]
B
No change there.
- [12:01]
A
Yeah, exactly. The slap in the face continues for designers, but this really is quite, quite dramatic. And as you say, some of this was born out of what has for a long time been considered this student loan crisis.
- [12:17]
And students coming out of school, in some cases Owing tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in some cases. And it is a reminder that tuitions have gotten quite high in this country. But many people feeling, including the AIA and some other organizations that are in support of the profession of architecture, that this isn't the way to address that issue and doesn't leave a good taste in their mouths.
- [12:46]
B
I would say, yeah, I mean, I think most people on all sides of the political spectrum would agree that this is kind of a problem. I just think a lot of people, certainly architects, feel that this is not really the solution, because like I said, it really just changes the math. If you want to go to a top program like Yale or Columbia, you have to borrow an additional $40,000 to get there. Presumably, you don't have the money to go to, and then you're turning to a private lender, and the interest rate there is usually going to be higher than what the federal government will offer you. So in some cases, probably students will come out with more debt from school. In other cases, students might just decide, you know what? This is too expensive. I'm just not going to become an architect. I think some schools will probably cancel their graduate programs. It's possible that people, that schools will lower the cost of their programs to try and make up for this. There's general skepticism that that will happen, but it's really unpredictable what will come from this. What many people said is simply that we will have fewer architect just because it'll be so much more expensive or difficult to get into these programs and more onerous to borrow from them. So, yeah, I don't know what this specifically means for designers. I've been going back and forth a little bit with David Spruels from the New York School of Interior Design, and he was saying that actually, if there are fewer architects, then some designers might see an opportunity to do the works that normally goes to an architect. But of course, it also makes it more difficult for designers to borrow for a graduate program, so it makes it more expensive for them as well. So it's. It's really unpredictable what will come for this. But we're going to see the effects of this for sure.
- [14:09]
A
No, absolutely. We are going to see the effects of it. And listen, as we know, in talking to many interior designers, they're unlikely to shed a tear at the thought of fewer architects in the world. But I think they do.
- [14:21]
B
Not all.
- [14:21]
A
But yes, I think many of them say, oh, well, that's terrible. But I think once they're done making that joke, nobody wants to see the entire industry impacted in the way that it may well be from this. And to the point about interior designers and competing more for those places at schools, that certainly may be one of the unintended consequences of this whole thing. It's hard to know, but it certainly is going to have an impact and it seems unfortunate. I don't know if there's any hope that this doesn't happen. There was some discussion about people getting together and trying to reach out to. To congressmen and others to try and stop this. What's your sense?
- [15:06]
B
Well, I think there's kind of two things. There's the overall spending caps on graduate lending, which I think probably will happen in some way, shape or form. That seems pretty much a guarantee now whether architecture gets reclassified as a professional degree. That could potentially happen. There's a public comment period early next year. It doesn't really go into law until, I think, mid next year. So it's possible that some of these terms will be jiggered around and some of the numbers will go up or down. So it's possible that architects may not see as much of an impact here. But then, ironically enough, you have either way would be designers who want to go to grad school are going to see their lending capped at a much lower level. Pretty much no matter what happens here, if you're planning on borrowing money from the government to go to graduate design school, this is of interest and of note and we'll certainly come back to it when the numbers are finalized.
- [15:54]
A
Absolutely. In the short term, looks like it's going to be a little bit harder and we'll see what impact that has. We definitely will revisit this. But in the meantime, we've got to move on, Fred, because we're going to talk about vertical video.
- [16:05]
B
Let's talk about vertical video. For boh's fall print issue, I wrote about how changes in the social media landscape have shifted how designers are marketing themselves online. Should you focus on your portfolio or your personality? Dennis, what do you think? Pick one. You can only pick one. What do you focus on?
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A
Being without a portfolio? I have to focus on my personality, and that's the problem that I have. My personality has to carry me a long way for it.
- [16:31]
B
Yes, same. Same. Z.
- [16:32]
A
Well, so. So what's really going on here, Fred? What's this all about?
- [16:35]
B
Let's take it back to the silent film era and talk about that. In all seriousness, though, I was kind of thinking about how Instagram has changed so much recently. It used to be all about static images. And now it's all about surprise, Vertical video to compete with TikTok. And I was just thinking about how, no joke, you know, when the film industry transitioned from silent movies to talkies, it really changed which actors were popular, because you had this whole generation of actors who exc in the silent film era, and then suddenly we can hear their voices. There were a lot of actors with annoying voices who did not make the transition. And I think you see these changes in media and how technological developments change winners and losers. And I mean, you can even think about the more recent transition to Instagram. When Instagram came around, it was a new thing. And designers who got in early and figured out how to make images that popped on Instagram and figured out how to work the hashtag system really excelled. And I feel like kind of the celebrities of today in the design industry are people who figured out Instagram in 2012 and 2013. And so it follows that now that the platforms are totally different and what's popular there is vertical video. The stars of five years from now are going to be the people who figure out vertical video today. And so that was kind of the thesis of the piece. And I tried to explore what that really means for designers.
- [17:54]
A
Exactly what it really means for designers. So part of what it seems to mean is, do you have enough of a personality? Are you enough of a performer? And you're absolutely right. Everyone needs to go back and rewatch Singing in the Rain and watch what happened when they came out of silent movies and into talkies and some of the people fell away because they weren't ready for it. I think this issue is being talked about so widely in conversations that I'm having and that I see everywhere. I was having a conversation with Andre Malone the other night at the New York School of Inter Interior Design. He was talking about the performative nature of interior design today and his dismay about the fact that there is this expectation that suddenly you need to be a character of some sort, you need to be sharing things in a way that he feels very strongly is very anti what both he grew up in the world of design and architecture believing, but also not something that he is all about and wants very much for the work to speak for itself. And we were talking about Dan Fink earlier, who also doesn't want to be doing vertical video behind the scenes at his shop.
- [19:16]
B
Right. Hard to imagine Dan Fink doing like a dance trend.
- [19:20]
A
Yeah. I mean, so I think a lot of people are really torn about this whole thing. And I think one of the issues at play here as well is. Is the fact that some of these people have incredible personalities and are very charming and fun, somehow masking or distracting us from a level of work that may or may not be worthy of all the followers that they've amassed or the influence that they now seem to have in the industry. And that's what I'm hearing more and more from designers.
- [19:51]
B
That's such a good point. And I think there probably are examples of people like that who, of course, will remain nameless here on the Thursday show. But I do think there's kind of another side to it, which is that. That I think on some level, people have always hired an interior designer based around their personality. It's always been about more than just, is your work really beautiful or can you execute a beautiful living room? The vibe has always been important. I think back to Designer Previews, that amazing service that started, I think, in the 80s where it was Karen Fisher. Karen Fisher, of course, a New York icon who would. She was like the classic New York matchmaker. She would find the client and find the designer who was right for them. And some of it was based around the look being right, but a lot of it was like, are they going to gel? Are they going to get along? And I think that on some level, designers focusing on showing themselves, appearing on camera and their social media and kind of giving their followers a sense of who they really are as a person. I think it's not all bad. I think clients want to know, like, okay, is this going to be a fun project? Is it more going to be sort of appreciating their mastery? Are they a serious person? Are they a silly person? I don't think that that's all bad.
- [21:00]
A
No. And I don't mean to suggest it's all bad at all. And I think it's remarkable. We've long talk about how incredible Instagram is in that it replaces the printing press and it replaces the need to be published in magazines, and it replaces, for so many people, it's been freeing. They can create their own platform, their own voice. They can show people their own work in their own way. So I think there are a ton of upsides to this, and I think how great that people that do have this incredible personality. And you wrote about Stephanie Sabi, who I'm mad about, and I'm thrilled that she gets to become known to so many people, and I love her work. And so that's, I guess, part of it. So Stephanie's work is exceptional, and she's also fun and Interesting. And so great. I was only suggesting that for some, the concern is some people have incredible personalities and are really fun on Instagram, but also you dig down into the grid sometimes and look at some of their work and you go, oh, well, no name.
- [22:07]
B
Let's protect the innocent.
- [22:11]
A
But I mean, listen, when I'm at a dinner party and I'm sure this happened for you, people love to whisper in my ear, like, look at this person there. I'm so big on social media, but what's the level of their work? Like? And I just don't want that to be.
- [22:26]
The main focus. I think it's great that people can break out and have a different kind of career today. And listen, you become a big star on social media, all sorts of other opportunities and doors open for you, and fantastic, if that's what you want to be. But I also don't want people coming up in the design industry thinking that you need to be a social media influencer in order to be a great designer.
- [22:49]
B
No, I mean, it's so complicated, though, right, Dennis? Because I agree with that. All right. But then you take, like, okay, you look at Andre Malone and Dan Fink, two very successful designers, like, at the top of their field, people who are not invested in being on Vertical video. And, you know, so there's clearly a pathway for that. You don't. You don't have to do dances on TikTok and on Instagram. But on the other hand, I think both of them have had advantages of having, like, working for big firms or. I think Dan was very talented, but he was also lucky to be in Silicon Valley at the right time and meet the right clients. And if you're thinking, like, here I am in a designer in a small city. I don't know anyone. I've never worked for a bigger designer. Like, how am I going to get attention for my work? This is one way to do it. So you could say also that it's kind of an equalizer. I don't know. There's so many different ways to think about it. I kind of get a little bit confused when I start thinking, like, is this a good thing or a bad thing? Because I agree it's good for some people, it's bad for others. I think it just is. You know, I was talking with someone we know, Laura Benloss from the PR firm Nylon. She thinks a lot about this stuff, and she said, like, this is what it is. Like, the algorithm has decided that this is what is it, what it's going to surface and the design industry, to some degree is still operating a little bit three or four years ago, and you don't have to do this, but I think if you want to be big on social media or if you want to get eyeballs and then maybe leads on social media, this is certainly a way to do it. So good or bad, I think it simply is.
- [24:12]
A
Well, exactly. And it exists, and it is this huge opportunity if you want to seize it, and if you don't, let's see what happens next year. For those who decide they don't want to lean into this, I think Andre.
- [24:25]
B
Malone and Dan Fink will be just fine.
- [24:27]
A
We'll check in, right? We'll check in with them and their careers, and my guess is exactly, they'll be doing just fine. In the meantime, we've got another controversy we've got to jump into. This time it's all around color. Last week, Pantone chose a white shade called Cloud dancer as its 2026 Color of the year, sparking swift backlash from critics. And yes, they took to social media in great numbers. Some people burning their Pantone books, strong messages being sent. What did you make of it all, Fred?
- [24:59]
B
Well, let's go to the critics that I care most about. Your Instagram followers. Dennis, I know you put this up on your feed. What did people say?
- [25:06]
A
It was all over the place. Some people. So Melissa Feldman, longtime journalist in the home industry, just felt it was lazy and uninspired. Right. And there were a lot of people just in that camp. Why didn't you just try harder, for heaven's sakes? Many people took this as a strong racial statement and felt that this was a time where sending this kind of message was not only irresponsible, but dangerous. Other people felt that surely they cooked this up as this brilliant PR scheme. Well done, Pantone. There you go. You wanted us to be talking about it, and we're talking about others. Designer Amy Vermillion, you know, did a video and sent me quite a lengthy note about, listen, more than anything, we just wanted some fun color to lean into. We're kind of done with white. We're kind of done with the messaging around that. And also she was worried that the white message was a bit of a recessionary message, a la our earlier conversation about rate cuts. And I think a lot of people felt the same way. You know, are you saying, oh, we need to dial back the color and the enthusiasm? So a lot of opinions, but few people without an opinion, Fred? Let's say that, yes.
- [26:24]
B
Well, a lot to unpack There. And my own take was, this was big. Boucle was behind all of this.
- [26:30]
A
Yes. I love your take on social media.
- [26:32]
B
The makers of Ivory Boucle got in Pantone's ear and said, we're dying out there.
- [26:37]
A
And that's a powerful group, as we know.
- [26:39]
B
Yes. I mean, it's complicated. I mean, just to sort of break it down, I mean, I will say, like, the initial reaction among people that I follow on Instagram was much more about blah. Like, come on. Like, you know, designers love color. We've been stuck in this kind of sad beige era. I mean, I personally, I think sad beige can be done well. But we've. We've been in that moment for a minute, and I think a lot of designers are really craving a return to color. I think retailers are talking about it. I'm sure RH color is just around the corner any minute. Exactly. And so this felt a little bit weird. Like, last year was mocha mousse, which felt like, like, I'm sure some people were sort of bored by that, but it felt like it really hit the mark of what certainly interior designers were talking about and was saying was the dominant look of the moment. Whereas, I don't know, I don't get the sense that, oh, we're suddenly seeing a return to minimalism or pared down colorless looks. This felt sort of strange to me. And that was kind of the first initial round of reactions from designers. And I agree with that. I'm very much not a market editor or someone who pays attention to. To as much attention to style as some of my colleagues, but it seemed like a weird choice from that perspective. You mentioned sort of the racial political angle. It's interesting because I do think absolutely, people's concerns about the racism in the design industry are totally founded. It's not like we solved it in 2020 after the reckoning that was had in this industry. And I think people should be rightly pointing out racial issues that come up in the industry. I can't imagine that Pantone was going for that when they chose this. But there's the question of, were they just simply naive? Did they not understand that it would be perceived that way by people in the marketplace? Which is maybe a different kind of error. But you said maybe this is sort of like a rage bait stunt, like you're trying to get a conversation going. And I don't know. I don't imagine that they're too happy about how this has gone in the Pantone offices today. What do you think, though?
- [28:32]
A
No, Exactly. I don't want to believe that this is what they wanted, but also it makes me wonder, is their circle that small that they. That they didn't know that this was going to cause that kind of reaction? Had they taken this out to a broader, wider group of people, I can't imagine it wouldn't have been shut down pretty, pretty early on. So it makes me wonder that, did they get that feedback and said, oh, well, who cares? It's such a great color. We're gonna go with it anyway.
- [28:57]
B
It's such a great color.
- [28:58]
A
I mean, cloud dance. I just feel like we just love it so much. I. I don't care if people are upset. But anyway, I mean, all of that said, it seems for designers, as you were just suggesting, more than anything, just disappointing, designers were feeling excited about color. They were feeling, oh, let's get into maximalism. Let's get into where the English design is leading us. All of those conversations, and then this just seemed to knock all that down. And again, not that every designer is looking to Pantone as they're jumping off point for decisions that they're making, but.
- [29:34]
They wanted a different message coming out.
- [29:36]
B
Of this, clearly, no question. And I think it's also like, it really is a sign of the times, as you said. It's funny because they talked a lot about how this was the first time that Pantone had chosen any shade of white as its color of the year in the 26 or seven years they've been doing it. But actually, Benjamin Moore did have, I think, Simply White in 2016. And at the time, I think probably some people were bored by it, but I don't remember there being a controversy. I think it was just like, okay, it just shows you how not only the political landscape has changed, but also the media landscape has changed. It's just. It's like you put something out, people have a reaction to it, people get angry, somebody gets angry at the person getting angry. It's just a whole. And of course, now you and I are part of this now people have. So it just becomes unavoidable that everything becomes a football that gets kicked back and forth. And it's funny because all this really is. Is a white square, but a white square on Pantone's website. And all of this controversy because of that kind of crazy.
- [30:36]
A
Lots of opinions and I think mostly just regret around this choice. So many people wondering, should we keep doing color of the year, Pantone? I don't know.
- [30:46]
B
I think we should have stopped a long time ago. I do not see the utility in this, but that's just me. Sorry.
- [30:52]
A
Maybe that's the big message from this whole thing. Maybe this, this ought to be it. Stick a stick a fork in it, Color of the year might just be done. And that's it. Okay. That's the big takeaway. Moving on. Unfortunately, we have some sad news to share. Legendary American architect Frank Gehry passed away last week at the age of 96. After establishing his own firm in 1962, he became known for his rebellious stylistic approach, seen first in his bold redesign of his family's bungalow in Santa Monica. Though he earned the Pritzker architecture prize in 1989, one of his crowning achievements came later with the 1997 unveiling of the Guggenheim Museum Bilbao, a titanium structure that helped revitalize the Spanish city, sparking a wave of similar architectural efforts in cities across the globe. As Gary told the New York times in a 2012 interview, you go into architecture to make the world, world a better place.
- [31:49]
B
And I think he did. I mean, what an iconic architect. What an amazing life. You know, it's really sad to lose both Frank Gehry and Robert AM Stern within the span of just a week or a couple weeks. These are both incredibly accomplished people. I think it's kind of when you really step back and think about how idiosyncratic and eccentric Frank Gehry's work was and how popular it was on a massive scale, it's really kind of impressive and it's something you can only sort of marvel at. So this was a sad one. But he certainly has left his mark all over the world, to be sure.
- [32:19]
A
And as you say, both Stern and Gary will be long studied and remembered and taught in schools. So really a meaningful impact for them both. And yet their work, so very different and their personalities too. So a lot to get into there. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including the launch of a new wallpaper brand and Black Friday wins and losses. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break.
- [32:53]
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- [34:01]
And we're back. I'm joined now by the president of Jamestown, Michael Phillips. Michael, welcome back to the show.
- [34:08]
C
Thank you, Dennis. What a pleasure.
- [34:10]
A
Well, it's been an age since we've talked. I'm so glad to have you back. And there's so much to catch up on. You've been so busy in so many ways. I want to start by having you explain to people a little bit about Jamestown and all the many different things that you. You're involved with. And then we'll, then we'll talk design centers. Okay.
- [34:31]
C
So Jon Jamestown, we're 42 years old now. Gosh, it's gone by so fast. I think we have been investing in north and South America and Central Europe for retail, office, residential, mixed use sort of hubs, specializing a lot in the tech and media space. But some of the things we're known 4 in the US are things like Chelsea Market and Industry City and the Boston Design center, which is part of the IDB building. And then series of hubs across cities like Amsterdam, Lisbon, Milan, Edinburgh and Scotland. London, variety of sort of core cities throughout Europe. So a variety of things. We have a neighborhood in, in Milan which is a lot about fashion and showrooms and tech. And so it leads to the great love of home and design.
- [35:32]
A
Well, I know that all roads lead back to your love of home and design.
- [35:36]
C
Indeed they do.
- [35:37]
A
You mentioned Boston and last time we were talking, you were getting very involved with the Boston Design center and there was a lot going on there. Things have changed somewhat with your role there, or. Tell me.
- [35:51]
C
No, I mean, I think it's still the same. I think the we at the time, the Boston Design center is part of a 1.3 million square foot assemblage of an old army warehouse on the port of Boston. And like a lot of things that had become fractured ownership over time, we brought it back together. We created new infrastructure. We consolidated the design center into about 350,000ft, feet from where it started, which was just shy of 500,000ft, and created a new retail concourse on the ground, which was for trade Showrooms that wanted to be open to the public as well as sort of an award winning restaurant called Chickadee and a series of service uses, but really sort of reinforcing that trend, which I think is happening around many things, but certainly around design, which is you're seeing the evolution of street interior design and showrooming as well as retail to the trade and alongside fashion and other lifestyle brands. And so we've really focused a lot in places like D.C. and Georgetown or in Atlanta in sort of creating these districts which are anchored in home, but also have lifestyle and fashion as part of of that.
- [37:16]
A
Interesting, because another one of the things that we touched on last time we were talking, you were eager for the design industry to be talking to the consumer much more and perhaps even re evaluating the to the trade pricing model and all of that. Have your thoughts altered or changed in any way around all of that or is that still a message that you're preaching?
- [37:41]
C
Well, well, let's unpack that a little bit because I think the nuance of that is important, which is, I think what I have been focused on and advocating for or preaching for lack of a better word, is that the barrier at the front door come down. I think showrooms, their pricing models should be maintained. I think it's important for designers to have an option in how they engage with the required amount of hands on service it takes to take raw goods and turn them into finished goods. But what I think showrooms should do is have a retail price and a trade price and be willing to engage and provide the support when a consumer comes and wants to do business with them. Because part of what's happening in the world of social media is that more and more people think that they're qualified to do things, things that they may or may not be qualified to do and have access to get those things. But the industry also is challenged by the fact that they want more footfall and more access and more exposure. But to have your door locked and want to be on the street doesn't work. Or to want more foot traffic, but not be willing to engage them and educate them doesn't work. And so I think there's, there are brands that are steadfastly committed to only dealing with professional designers, which I support. But at the same time, then you have to sort of be willing to not be at Main in Maine or be in an intersection where the public comes to you. On the other hand, I think there are lots of brands that have models that they have experimented with. Companies like Schumacher and KRAVIT for example, who come to mind that or the Shade Store or something like that. That is sort of doing a hybrid model. And I think that's a real growth path for how the industry can experiment.
- [39:41]
A
Let's start by talking about you getting involved in the Dakota and what was interesting to you about that opportunity. So one of the buildings that formerly was Charles Cohen's and let's just say he had to part start with it and the investors took it back and then you stepped in. Tell me how that came about and what your thinking was.
- [40:06]
C
I think there's incredible cohesion and commitment to the ecosystem of design and home, certainly in the United States, in Britain and to a large extent in central Europe. I think that as the industry has evolved, it's become quite lumpy in terms of the experiences that people have in different buildings. And so I certainly have an interest in playing a bigger role in that space. And the Dakota is really unique in that. Obviously South Florida has grown in lots of ways and you have splintering happening in Naples or in West Palm beach, for example, you have the Miami Design District, which is sort of a hybrid, but is sort of moving away from home incrementally over time. And so I think that Dakota offers something that's really interesting in that critical mass for shopability and for inspiration and for engagement is important. And I think the design, the Fortress Design center model is really important as a part of the ecosystem and as other parts of the industry start to co locate, whether it's architecture, engineering, commercial specification firms, AV companies, things that are support systems around the industry, I think those kinds of buildings are really important. Important. I also think that things like fabric, which is a big driver of the industry, is best shopped when you can shop it widely across a lot of different solutions. So I like that. And, and so taking over the Dakota was. Is an exciting thing for us and has been a lot of fun so far, which we just had a great fall market. We just, you know, ran a really interesting design speaker breakfast, which is good. And, and we've done a lot of recent leasing there and renewals, which has been terrific. We believe in kind of an in good company strategy. So people that are not necessarily in our building, that are in the Hollywood Design center or Miami or in Palm beach, we want everybody to come together as a design community and we think we can provide some stewardship around that and sort of ensuring that.
- [42:36]
Beachhead is broad enough to encompass people, but also that particularly in looking at things, we have a significant Andean presence in South America in our business. And we're very focused on that sort of import, export, IP and trade culture between north and South America and Dakota's role in that, but also looking much more towards Europe and what we've seen happen with, with Art Basel and with Miami Design and all of those things that are bringing in great companies.
- [43:08]
A
Well, that's part of what I'm wondering because when you talk to some of the skeptics about the Dakota, they will say, oh, people moved out years ago. It's time has passed. People have figured out another plan. Right. They've moved elsewhere and they've made other parts of town, they've made other areas in Miami more dynamic. And there isn't the pull to come back to the Dakota in a meaningful way. What's your sense of that?
- [43:39]
C
Well, I think that design has undergone several waves of change. I think we have been living in the last sort of 15 years on the downward pressure on multi line showrooms, just like we've lived through the downward pressure on multi line fashion stores. And so I think what is happening is more specific individual stores and showrooms around a single brand. And I also think that it's never a one size fits all solution. And so there are people who have left the design center and have found other great places to be and can participate in events and programs and there are people who need space and need co location and we are actively leasing to those people. So I don't think it's like saying there's only the Upper east side in New York and there's not tribeca or soho or the Lower east side or Financial District or Chelsea. And so I think there's lots of room in the ecosystem for everything to thrive.
- [44:46]
A
So part of the hope, it sounds like this whole co locate, I mean, interestingly, I was just talking to Dan Cahoon from Jerry Pear, who's an adac. Right. And clearly the model of having a whole bunch of design firms located in that design center is really helping the vitality and the feeling that business, it's doing well.
- [45:07]
C
Right. And I think it is also there's no questioning that the Dakota has not been functioning well, well for more than two decades. And so, yeah, I think just operating it with more intentionality and through the lens of really caring about the ecosystem and about the industry is yielding good results. And I think there is the power of colocation, which in this industry still is not. Not it still exists. I mean, you can go to Chelsea harbor and you can say, I've heard for 30 years Chelsea harbor is not convenient.
- [45:52]
There's nothing to eat there. It's too far to go. And Pimlica Road is so nice, and we feel so good going to Pimlica Road. There's only so much Pimlica Road, and there's a full building in Chelsea Harbor. And if you want to shop, as I did three weeks ago, for grass clothes, for headliners on a boat, the place that you do that is at Chelsea Harbor. And I think that that is true across the board.
- [46:18]
A
Well, what's interesting that you mentioned Chelsea harbor. And so I was just with Claire German recently, who brings so much energy and vitality to that design center and makes you feel right, like somebody is on the beat and events galore. That giant holiday party that they just had. I mean, wow, House, wow. Exactly. I mean, you just feel like somebody is bringing energy to that space, and it feels like that's what you need in these design centers to make them thrive.
- [46:50]
C
You know, I come from a farming and ranching family originally, and good land management is about nourishing the soil and rotating crops and, you know, leaving fields fallow and not over strip farming.
- [47:06]
A
And.
- [47:06]
C
And it's the same thing in any business, in any activity, whether it's your garden in your house or your home or it's a real estate business. And so I think nourishing things and showing them love and paying attention and showing up is half the battle.
- [47:26]
A
Well, so to your point about the Dakota, I mean, do you first have to just sort of helicopter in there and just kind of hold. Hold people's hands a little bit and say, listen, I know things have been rough for a while, but we're here now. We're going to re energize this place and we're going to get it back?
- [47:43]
C
I think so. And I think if you were to talk to people today, I think the energy is very different than it was nine months ago. I also think that that has been a struggle, an intense public media struggle for several years that we've all followed from the edge of our seats. And so. So I think there's more changes to come there, and we are certainly motivated to be a part of the solution.
- [48:09]
A
Well, and I wonder, I mean, to what I assume you're alluding to some of these very powerful design centers being concentrated in one person's hands for all of these years, despite that person either clearly losing interest in the business or just making different financial decisions and not wanting to. Wanting to invest in that space in a meaningful way. The decorative center in Houston now No longer part of the Cohen portfolio. And if you want to tell me that you're stepping in there, feel free. I don't know.
- [48:44]
C
I would certainly love to step in there and certainly interested in participating in that solution.
- [48:50]
A
Okay, so perhaps talks are ongoing. You'll let me know. But then also, I mean, we've got the D and D building, which I'm guessing you'd also love to have.
- [49:01]
B
Right.
- [49:02]
A
Do you want to tell me about conversations you want to.
- [49:04]
C
No, I don't.
- [49:08]
Suffice to say, I think that we would love to be a participant in the solution and the evolution of design in the United States at scale. And I think also given what's happening with tariffs, I think there's a real, real value to IP from overseas being produced to the United States and distributed in the United States, and that there's an opportunity in that space as well, and the ability to turn the levers around. We wake up every day thinking that we're only successful if our tenants are successful, and how can we make their businesses better and how can we help them thrive? And I think that. That. That the ability to do that and speak in a few markets at once, I think is a level of efficiency that is important to undertake. And so where we can be helpful, we want to do that.
- [50:02]
A
You just mentioned what's happening with tariffs. So what in your mind is happening with tariffs? What do you think the impact of all of this has been, and do you think this will have a lasting impact on a lot of manufacturing coming back to the States, or. Or how we think differently about imports, or what's your take?
- [50:23]
C
So I think that the industry that we're talking about is a craft, is fundamentally a craft industry. And I think we have so much skill in this country around that. And there's things like the makers alliance, which grew out of the Urban Electric partnerships. So if you start to think about what does onshoring manufacturing look like and what's the opportunity in that? It's tremendous. I mean, we certainly made beautiful furniture in America very early, and some of that is some of the most valuable furniture one can buy today. So I think tariffs, not going to comment on good, bad, different, but to say that to have more things made in America is not a bad thing. And I think having distribution channels, which we've seen seen evolve with the advent of social media and people's ability to speak directly to a consumer and to connect is fascinating. And so I would like to encourage more of that. And to the extent that the interior design showroom Industry can be great supporters of that. I think it's only a positive outcome.
- [51:38]
A
You mentioned Charleston. And let's segue into talking about what you're doing there because there's a lot of excitement. And let's talk about Charleston and what you've done so far and what the big plan is.
- [51:50]
C
So we own what I would call the residue of the Charleston Navy Yard, which was the largest naval installation on the east coast of the United States. And we own about 110 acres there, which has a series of buildings and really some tenants who are pretty amazing that were born out of that facility. Urban Electric being one, Fritz Porter being another, a great local. Smithy Ironworks being a third, Robert Long Lighting another one. So as we think about the rich kind of diverse ecosystem of the Carolinas more broadly, but specifically Charleston and the College of the Building Arts and kind of traditional building skills, it really dawned on me. Celebrating that would be a really unique opportunity. And I would say a couple things about the south and the southern states that the seven southern states that represent the southern region of design, which Atlanta has always been the headquarters for at adac, that has shifted over the last few years and the pilgrimage that southern cities made to Atlanta and people's willingness to do that has shifted. And so you're seeing design districts pop up in a few different places. Nashville, Charlotte. So I think Charleston, being a city that really is steeped in architectural heritage and a food culture and certainly a driving tourism culture as well as a flying tourism culture, has a unique contribution to make the designs space on top of the companies we just talked about who kind of seeded it. So we have just opened our first phase of what will be the sort of broader Charleston design district with Holland and Sherry Schumacher Kravit. We have Textures flooring company. We have a variety of home interior design firms that are there as well. And we're about to announce the next wave of those showrooms. But the idea is to create a dialogue between what is indigenous quality of the place, but also to bring world class design to the Carolina Lowcountry. And like Spoleto did almost 40 years ago in arts and culture and the Spiletto Festival. It's not about just exporting what is from Charleston. It's about about creating this global design conversation and really kind of thinking about it from the construct of both the coastal markets from the Outer Banks to North Florida, but also the mountain and second home market and obviously all the cities in between and the kind of first home markets in between. And so far it's been received really positively. And. And it's humble. It's not intended to be a great, grand gesture of a statement, but to really kind of express what is happening in that conversation. So we have amazing companies like Jaliska. The Crystal Company is based in Charleston. And so, you know, and I think, you know, I really love design and have quite a few personal expressions of that love.
- [55:22]
So that yielded yet another house in Charleston. So I think.
- [55:25]
A
Which you desperately needed, and I'm so.
- [55:27]
C
Glad you were able to. No.
- [55:31]
I don't know what I was thinking before I did.
- [55:33]
A
I don't know how you were living without it for so long.
- [55:35]
C
Exactly.
- [55:36]
A
Yeah. Well, but it's interesting what you mentioned, because. And this is going on around the country. But you mentioned Atlanta and everyone at one point making the trip. But now many people in Atlanta are realizing, hey, I've got to go all to these different territories. I've got to go to Nashville. I've got to go to Charlotte. Right. I've got to make sure that people.
- [56:00]
Are being taken care of. And it's created this challenge around this design center model. Do you have little popups? How does that work? How do you think about it? And I'm curious how you imagine that evolving. I mean, Charleston, we think of as a relatively small market.
- [56:17]
C
It will. I mean, it's so it's a million direct residents in the region growing to 2 million. So it's not necessarily a tiny market, but it's also a rapidly growing market. And when you expand that region up and down the coast and inland, it's quite astounding, the size of that market. And so I think most companies will tell you that some of their Most productive Southern zip codes are within 100 miles of us.
- [56:48]
In terms of the design showrooms. And so I would say a little bit. I would call this earlier part of the conversation about the Dakota conversation. I think there's plenty of room for everything, and I think it is about the densification of regions. For a long time, Palm beach was not a solution other than South Dixie highway for antiquing, which we're all addicted to do. I mean, to doing. I cannot tell you how many things in my life come from South Dixie.
- [57:26]
And so I think the idea that there's a burgeoning design district culture on South Georgia Avenue and on South Dixie is really great and robust. Right. And if you think about that, is that a threat to South Florida and the Dakota? No, I think it's more in the process. So I think it's a Little bit. I'd say the same thing about Atlanta is that 50 years ago, 60 years ago, Lenox Mall and Phipps Mall were the only option. And if you wanted to buy school clothes and fall clothes for your family, you drove two to five hours to Atlanta, and you stayed in a motel hotel around Lenox Mall, and you did your seasonal shopping and you drove back to your town. Right. And I think ADAC was built on that model. And ADAC was also owned by the Portmans, and they loved it and cherished, favored lots of great things on that for a long time. And I think that as things evolve, I think there's room in that space as well.
- [58:34]
A
So, again, coming back to the D and D building, I know that there are challenges with that space and the land lease and all of this. Do you think ultimately that design center remains a design center?
- [58:48]
C
I do. I think it's the single most dynamic design center in America. I think you'd find a large number of the people who would say, if it was fixed tomorrow, they would go right back there.
- [59:01]
A
What do you think you would need to do to bring that building back to the time where it had a restaurant that was vibrant and had a scene, and you were always just bumping into all these AD100 designers in the hallways, and it just felt like there was just a lot more. More vitality activity there.
- [59:23]
C
I think I have good taste and a point of view and a sense of hospitality, and I think people will be happily back there.
- [59:31]
A
Do you draw up plans imagining that day, Michael? Do you think of.
- [59:36]
C
Cannot comment on that, Dennis.
- [59:39]
I will tell you that I'm designing a really cool restaurant in Charleston right now.
- [59:43]
A
Okay, tell me. Tell me that.
- [59:45]
C
Which is sort of loosely based on on beach clubs in the Mediterranean. I think food is. Is an essential part of any home conversation, obviously. And what I think is also really fascinating when you speak to people who have really thriving home markets. It's because people really do like to entertain in their homes.
- [60:11]
A
Yeah.
- [60:12]
C
And I think part of the problem with the food conversation about restaurants. Restaurants is they've moved too far away in many respects from something that feels like an extension of your home. And I think that there's an opportunity in that space.
- [60:26]
A
No, I think there's such a huge opportunity. I mean, I think of the PDC in la, and I'm curious your thoughts about the LA design scene in general. The PDC used to have all these different restaurants at one point.
- [60:39]
C
Yes.
- [60:39]
B
Right. Yeah.
- [60:42]
A
And that building also is crying out for some. Some help. Escalators are often not working the elevator.
- [60:50]
C
I mean, it's odd that they raised the parking rates there.
- [60:57]
That seems like a. Seems like an interesting way to solve a bigger problem.
- [61:02]
A
Yeah, well, big problem is just the way to put it. I wonder, I mean, and in such an enormous market, and we're joking, but it's not at all funny, Michael. It's sad and unfortunate and I wonder what the answer is there.
- [61:18]
C
Yes, I think that's a head scratch. But again, I think that's a market that it's some of the best shopping in the world for home in La Brea, in Melrose and all these incredible markets. I think there's room for lots of things to happen. And I think the Pacific Design center has an opportunity to play around a really important role in that stewardship. And I think you have incredible people like Becky Birdwell who are working and Niven Breen folks, and all these people that are promoting design and the conversation of design and the culture around education and that space, I think is really fascinating.
- [61:58]
A
Well, and what's interesting, I mean, to your point about the vibrant street activity, I'm amazed how great good business seems to have been. You talk to Dave Dawson at Urban Electric, he's like, yeah, just had the best month I ever had, the best year I ever had. It's all just going so great. The fabric companies, they all just sound like they're crushing it. And here we've had tariffs and here we've had everybody's. I mean, we hear people are stretched and we've had this runaway inflation and this affordability issue.
- [62:27]
C
I mean, I think there's also a lag in the adjustment to some of that because I think, I think house projects are long lead time projects and once you're committed, you're not deviating, right? I think, you know.
- [62:43]
A
Yeah.
- [62:44]
C
But I think there is a renewed commitment that has been playing out over the last sort of 3/4 of a decade of people really reprioritizing home. And I think we saw. Saw also.
- [63:01]
Sort of an early shift in geographic moves related to retirement or to from both millennials, Gen X and baby boomers all at once. Right. I think we just saw a real compression on that. And I think you even see it in the cities. I mean, I think we would be remiss if we didn't touch on Maxine. And let's talk about incredible impact that that's had on the convergence of the reemergence of Madison Avenue as a retail street. Obviously was happening before Maxims. But you know, I live on The Upper east side. And I am just enthralled with the energy and how exciting it all is. And to top it off, now we have Maxims, which it's challenging us all design wise too, because Robin's such a genius. And so, so didn't we all go home and rethink a room or think what we would do with trim or something that we would do differently because of Robin Burley? I think so.
- [64:04]
A
No, absolutely. And how funny that the Wall Street Journal would be writing about the Upper east side being cool again. Right? I mean, and the whole club, private club scene in general is so interesting. Which leads me back to the discussion about these different design shows and what's going on there. We were talking about Milan earlier, right. Some people have told. Right Salone, which such a huge show, huge impact. And now it's gotten so huge that people are saying, I can't even go there anymore. I need to go to Copenhagen for three days of design instead or I need to go to some other show. What's your, what's your sense of all of that? Where is all of that moving? Paris in January. Are as many people excited about that as they once were? I don't know. I mean, what do you think?
- [64:57]
C
I think that inspiration and trend comes in waves for everyone. So I think Copenhagen and Scandi design is on everybody's lips. I think people who love Paris will always go back to Paris. And, and I've spent, gosh, now 35 January's in Paris. And I think Milan offers something that is an intersection of fashion and home that is really fascinating that you don't see so much elsewhere. And so it's funny, this faux boiserie company.
- [65:35]
It'S blown up everyone's social media for the last two and a half years. Right? But did anyone other than Michael Smith really know a lot about it before then?
- [65:46]
But in a way that is, that's the Maxim's trend for, for the Upper east side is faux boiserie for Paris. Right. So we're all reignited in, in French boiserie and, and how we can live with more of it.
- [66:00]
A
No, I, I, I'm with you. I mean, who doesn't want to buy an entire Ruhlman library and a whole.
- [66:06]
B
Right.
- [66:06]
A
I mean.
- [66:07]
C
Exactly, exactly. I know I do. No, I know. I do too.
- [66:11]
A
He's got no problem selling it to us. And I listen and that was so interesting to see him come to the D and D building. And I think it speaks to what he perceived to be the caliber of designer that was coming there.
- [66:22]
C
And I think they still are coming there. Do all the elevators work the way they should? No, but the building was always. I mean, let's face it, if you live in New York, you live with compromise. And I was looking at these terrace doors I have and thinking I could replace them. But why would I want to get rid of a 75 year old terrace door if I can just rebuild it? And that's, I think the same thing I would say about the D and D and all of its flaws.
- [66:51]
A
Okay, okay. Well, so, I mean, you can't tell me what's going to happen with the D and D building or the pdc, but. Or Houston. I mean, all of them.
- [67:03]
C
I don't, I don't have any, I don't have any news. But I will say that the Dakota is exciting. We're in the middle of.
- [67:11]
Refresh and redesign of the public spaces and we're launching a really interesting sort of marketplace for stalls and kiosks around pop ups for design and.
- [67:26]
Brands, which I think will be really interesting. Interesting.
- [67:28]
A
And do you think, do you imagine Charleston being a place where we see more consumers coming and brands getting more comfortable with that? I don't get the sense that since you and I last spoke, many of these brands have gotten all that more comfortable with servicing the consumer. Maybe you have a different take. I don't think Brian Dicker at Holland and Sherry is too interested in serving the consumer. You tell me. I don't know.
- [67:54]
C
I think that's probably right. But I think that, I think he's also on the second floor of a building that is not. He's not on the ground floor. Right. And so I think that, I think that's your choice. But I also think that I think you see more and more home companies having retail to the trade.
- [68:13]
A
You know, the industry has always hoped that somehow magically it would reach the wealthy end consumers with its brand and its name. So that wealthy end consumer would say to their designer, oh, I want to have Baker Furniture. Right. That was always the hope, whether it was through advertising and Architectural Digest or whatever they were doing to try and reach that person, but they didn't want to actually be servicing that person directly. And I'm wondering how we get there. There.
- [68:46]
C
I think it may be a bridge of having like design centers have designers on call or they have referral networks to other designers. I think you see designers as celebrities today, which is, you know, the celebrity of designer is an interesting topic that you should tackle.
- [69:09]
A
Definitely, definitely.
- [69:12]
C
I think, I think, I mean, just look at Pimlico Road or look at Roux Cob, or look at. There are lots of showrooms that are open to the public that are part of this, this ecosystem. So I wouldn't say that people aren't lining up to do it because the streets are filling every day with more design stores and design showrooms and brands that were historically not on the street. I do think you always are going to have a problem of education and of what it takes to service an untrained customer and so that there will always be value for a designer.
- [69:47]
A
Well, exactly. And that's always been the biggest challenge and that is the role that designers have played and hopefully will continue to play. I know I need to let you go and get into a meeting. So, Michael, thank you so much.
- [69:58]
C
Such a pleasure.
- [70:04]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye.
- [70:11]
B
Fred Ashley Furniture caught my eye, which doesn't often happen on the Thursday show because we mostly focus on the high end. But I was struck that the really, it's, it's an enormous furniture company. We should be talking about them more. Really struck a deal with a company called Perplexity, which is an AI search engine. And the reason they did it is because they're, you know, and this, this happened a lot on Black Friday. We should be talking about that too. But AI is increasingly getting into the way people search for products and buy them. So instead of going to Google, you go to your chatbot of choice. You say, I want a present for my fellow podcast host. Make it classy, you know, and the chatbot gives you a product recommendation and you can click to buy. And, you know, more and more retailers are making partnerships with these chatbots. Ashley was certainly the first solely home furniture focused brand to make one of these deals, but they will certainly not be the last. I think by this time next year. Warren Schohlberg said this, I say this morally less every big retailer will have, will have these deals and people will be doing a lot more AI powered shopping. So that'll be certainly a story to, to unpack in the new year. Dennis, did you do any AI powered shopping this year?
- [71:11]
A
I actually am pretty impressed with AI's ability to point me in the direction of many things that I want, Fred. And, and I regret to say that much of the Black Friday shopping was, in fact, for myself. Okay, I feel terrible to admit that, but there you go.
- [71:25]
B
You're not. I don't think you're alone in that. What, what caught your eye this week?
- [71:29]
A
You know, it's funny, a couple of Dan Rosen related items caught my eye this week. So first, Dan Rosen was doing a house tour of Kendall Jenner's property, which I'm sure many have seen by now. And he starts off saying, well, unfortunately, I actually really like this.
- [71:45]
B
Yeah.
- [71:47]
Bad news. It's good.
- [71:49]
A
Couldn't challenge it. And of course, part of the reason he couldn't is because as many people know, Heidi Kellyer did the design and of course, it looks amazing. And so Dan, who was all ready to rip it apart, just couldn't because it was, it was actually quite pleasant. The other fun Dan Rosen bit that I noticed was friend of the show, Michael Diaz Griffith made an appearance on Dan Rosen's Middle Brow podcast.
- [72:16]
B
It's a good podcast.
- [72:17]
A
Fun conversation was had with, with Michael about, about antiques and young people and, and, and where this is all going. And it was actually quite a fun and colorful conversation. So fun to see the, the DLN head and also noted young antiques supporter and encourager on the show.
- [72:40]
B
Yeah, Cool. I love, I love Middlebrow. It's a really cool, fun show. Touches, touches on a lot of different things. And the Kendall Jenner thing was she, it's honestly, I've heard through the grapevine that she's like, really into design. She has really good taste. It's not an act. You know, it's always, it's always unfortunate when those people are sincerely, sincerely great. But I, you know, congratulations to Heidi. Couldn't, you know, the fame couldn't be happening to a nicer person and a better designer. So kudos all around.
- [73:05]
A
No, no, absolutely. And someone who, who came to fame on social media, but not because of vertical videos. So another interesting point there for that conversation. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholas and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.