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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Who gets to call themselves a designer? Plus: Why Elizabeth Ralls bought Atlanta Homes & Lifestyles
01:03:28
BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus and host Dennis Scully discuss the biggest news in the industry. Later, publisher Elizabeth Ralls joins the show to explain why she bought Atlanta Homes & Lifestyles
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- [00:08]
Dennis Scully
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be talking to Elizabeth Rawls about why she bought Atlanta Homes and Lifestyles. But first we're going to catch up on the news, including the new AD100, a potential TikTok ban, and a look at the age old debate over who gets to call themselves a designer. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Home's executive editor, Fred Nicholas. Hi, Fred.
- [00:34]
Fred Nicholaus
Hi, Dennis. How's it going? Great.
- [00:36]
Dennis Scully
How you doing?
- [00:37]
Fred Nicholaus
Chaotic.
- [00:37]
Dennis Scully
I am getting ready for the big move. Yes.
- [00:40]
Fred Nicholaus
I've decided that the stress of the holidays and the end of the year just wasn't enough. I need to also move apartments. So my normally pristine podcast studio is just a mess of boxes and if listeners could see me, they would be deeply ashamed. But I'm surviving.
- [00:56]
Dennis Scully
Well, you've got a lot going on, Fred. We're grateful you're even here.
- [00:59]
Fred Nicholaus
I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to look back on Monday's episode, a conversation with Frida Gormley, the co founder of British textiles company House of Hackney. Really fascinating company. Really interesting to see just how serious they are around sustainability and being focused on nature, right?
- [01:17]
Dennis Scully
Absolutely. And one that I've wanted to talk to for a long time, ever since we first wrote the article, I believe Haley wrote about the fact that they had gone to the extent of actually putting Mother Nature and future generations on their board and bringing on a representative for nature to talk about their supply chain and what growth and expansion would mean for their environmental impact. So extremely thoughtful. What did you make of it?
- [01:46]
Fred Nicholaus
It's impossible not to look at. We put Mother Nature on the corporate board and kind of be like, oh, that's a little extreme. And kind of think of what does that actually look like when you're in the room and Mother Nature wants to make this move or that move. But I mean, she's very sincere about it and I think it's honestly like it's a reasonable thing to do in an era when I sort of feel like sustainability is more urgent than ever and it's very difficult to know exactly how to approach it. It was also just a fun conversation. She was very candid about how the first couple years of their business were very difficult. I think sometimes people put a very rosy picture on those early struggles. But she was like, nope, it was really hard. And so it was good to hear that kind of side of the entrepreneurship journey. But listen, if you take respecting nature and sustainability seriously, this is a must listen conversation because they're certainly doing that.
- [02:30]
Dennis Scully
It is a big issue. A very thoughtful person talking about it and it will be interesting to see how it all evolves. Okay, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Anthem+ showering only from Kohler. Anthem+ creates a transformative world for body and mind with every shower. It combines water, steam, light and sound in a fully immersive sensory experience with custom settings to match any mood and enhance any routine. Discover how you can design a personalized escape with Anthem plus smart showering@kohler.com showers and we're back. First up, Fred, the looming TikTok ban.
- [03:32]
Fred Nicholaus
Yes. Last year, President Biden signed a bill that gave TikTok's parent company, ByteDance, one year to sell the app or undergo a nationwide ban. After federal judges rejected the company's appeal last week, the app now faces uncertainty ahead of its looming deadline on January 19, mere weeks away. What do you think, Dennis? Is now my time to become a TikTok influencer?
- [03:54]
Dennis Scully
I was just going to say, I mean, you better hurry up, Fred, because it's. It's waiting for you. I think it's such an opportunity. But let's go back in time, Fred, and have you tell us a little bit about how we got here and what are people so worked up about with regards to TikTok.
- [04:10]
Fred Nicholaus
Sure. Yeah. So TikTok is owned by a company called ByteDance, which is a company based in China. And as TikTok has come to take over the minds of Americans of all ages, there's been kind of a growing concern among people, many of them in the government, around how the app has sort of a undue influence over our information space. And, you know, there's frequently connections between big Chinese corporations and the Chinese government. And there's a lot of concern essentially just that, you know, the Chinese Communist Party is unduly involved in TikTok, and TikTok is unduly involved in American public consciousness. So we need to sever that connection and have TikTok sell itself to an American entity to sort of separate the potential of espionage or propaganda campaigns. There's all kinds of risks that people in government are worried about with TikTok. So that's kind of the reason to ban it. Of course, proponents say this is a free speech issue. Surprise. Big tech companies are already spying on Americans. There's already concerns about that. So there's reasonable voices on both sides of the debate. But last year, a law was passed pushing this forced sale. And now we are rapidly reaching the moment of truth.
- [05:17]
Dennis Scully
We're reaching the moment of truth. And what do you really think could happen here, Fred?
- [05:21]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, this is. As a political reporter and someone who knows the tech industry inside of that, it's complicated because even if you listen to people who read, really know this stuff, people don't exactly know what's gonna happen here. There's a lot of things that could happen. The Supreme Court could intervene and, you know, overturn this ban on free speech grounds. A lot of people are speculating, too, that Trump, who has sort of, you know, defended TikTok on the campaign stump and people say that he's gonna deliver for them, can choose just simply not to enforce the ban. Just tell the Justice Department, hey, don't, don't follow that law. But. But it really is a dynamic situation. You know, it's also possible that ultimately ByteDance will cave and decide to sell. And, you know, the Chinese government will, like, tacitly allow that to happen. So no one really knows, but a band feels more possible than ever.
- [06:09]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, it's interesting, Fred, because We've talked about TikTok in the past, and sometimes we've joked or made light. And each time we talk about it, I've gotten notes from various people who work in cybersecurity saying, no, no, this.
- [06:22]
Fred Nicholaus
One actually our huge cybersecurity listenership.
- [06:25]
Dennis Scully
Well, I mean, I was surprised that we had people in cybersecurity that were tuning into the show, but God bless them, and I love it, but they were genuinely concerned and said that there are some real issues. So I do sense that some people who work in that industry feel like this is a bigger issue than just taking people's time and mind share. But I wonder for the design community if we feel that TikTok has made meaningful penetration in the design world. And does this really matter for designers? What's your. What's your sense there?
- [06:58]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, I feel like every month or even every day that goes by, I feel like TikTok matters more and more for designers. I mean, I do think it's just. It is the platform of choice for the rising generation. I feel like more and more designers are building an audience there. It is because, you know, there are designers who get clients on TikTok. It does. You know, influencers on TikTok do get licensing deals. This is not, you know, an irrelevant platform that's only about dance trends. This is. This is a increasingly significant platform in our industry. On the other hand, it has not reached the point of completely taken over. I still think that Instagram and Pinterest are kind of the town square of the design industry. So it's sort of. This comes at this kind of like, transitional moment. And so it's really interesting to see how that's going to, you know, again, if a ban does go through or some huge meaningful change happens, how that will, you know, upend the industry in a variety of ways. I mean, TikTok of course, says the creators are going to lose billions of dollars if this, as this band goes through. So, you know, some of those creators are in the design world, to be sure.
- [07:54]
Dennis Scully
I was surprised how many designers have said, if reluctantly, that they are focusing their efforts on TikTok and even some major brands. In an upcoming interview with the editor of British House and Gardens, she said they're working on TikTok as well because it's an important place and a lot of people are focused on capturing this younger, meaningful audience. And with all the talk about the wealth transfer that is about to happen in the coming years, it seemed like this platform was ripe to benefit from a lot of that attention.
- [08:28]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, and I mean, I think probably this news that TikTok might potentially get banned will generate some schadenfreude in the industry around, oh, I told you not to get on that young people dance platform. But I do think the reality is that even if TikTok is banned, which again, seems kind of crazy, but it could happen. The pivot towards vertically oriented video and social media is happening one way or the other. Instagram obviously copied TikTok with Reels. You know, that's the kind of content that they're prioritizing. I do think it would be wrong to assume that just because TikTok if, if it does get banned, that designers don't need to get good on video. I think that shift is happening one way or the other, and I think it's just a reality that we're all going to confront, you know, in the years ahead, TikTok or no. So hold on to that schadenfreude a little bit longer and figure, figure out how to do those dance trends, because they, unfortunately does matter.
- [09:18]
Dennis Scully
No, no, I think that. I think that's such a great point. TikTok has already had its impact. Whether it sticks around or not, it is definitely all about video. That's the takeaway. Up next, we're going to talk about the AD100. Fred. Architectural Digest released its annual list of the most influential architects and designers. Fred, what Stuck out to you.
- [09:38]
Fred Nicholaus
The AD100 is pretty cool this year. That was my takeaway. I felt like a lot of the debutantes were these really cool, young, hip looking designers. They had one photographer photograph a lot of the people and they did it with that sort of bright flash effect that kind of makes it look like a party photo. Candid. It just had a very. I was struck by the, the degree to which I'd like never heard of these people. And they felt like really fresh, cool faces. So that was my immediate, very surface level reaction. I don't know what about you.
- [10:05]
Dennis Scully
I agree, and I have to dig a little deeper and see what their aesthetic is. But it was interesting to see the hall of Fame seem to now be this long list of what we would consider more traditional designers. And I wonder if this is a statement about the evolution of the design process itself. We mentioned last week that Heidi Collier is on the list and one of those people that you thought, wait, isn't she already an AD100 designer? How is that. How is that not already the case? But I mean, I'm excited for her. And I felt like there were some people that feel like household names that aren't yet on the list, but. But maybe, maybe they will be in the future. But there were some, there were some surprises there. But I did feel like maybe there is this shift in style and taste.
- [10:49]
Fred Nicholaus
It's interesting. I kind of feel like every year, you know, we could conceivably have the conversation of like, this still matter. How does it matter? I think collectively we can all agree that it's not exactly the same as it was in the page rents era where it was this ticket to clients. But I do still think the 8100 does matter. I know that just personally, when I see those five characters appended to the end of someone's name, I'm like, okay, got it. This is a person who's been published, who is relevant. I do think it still has cultural impact. What do you think the 8,100 means in this day and age?
- [11:24]
Dennis Scully
I agree. And I think especially because as we've just discussed, so many of these newer or less well known names are making that list. I imagine that that has a far greater impact on their trajectory and what it might mean for the future of their firm and building awareness. I think back in the day, it used to be firms that were much further along in their care. And I almost feel as if the AD100 list today can be this wonderful boost to a lot of these upcoming firms and introduce the industry in a meaningful way to a lot of these new faces and a lot of these new, I hope, design directions. It looked like this group was taking some more chances and maybe working with some different vendors than we're familiar with. So I got the feeling that we might be seeing a lot more of these people perhaps on the pages and on the website and getting some, some very new looking projects shown to us, which I think would be welcome.
- [12:27]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, it's kind of like it means more for like a design firm that's in business for like five or seven years to get this, to get this honor than it does for. All right, you've been doing great work for 20 years. Here's like a little stamp of approval that probably doesn't impact your business too much one way or the other. That's sort of an interesting distinction. One kind of weird little twist around the AD 100 I've been kind of wondering about for the past couple of years is that AD now has this thing called the. I guess it's the ad approved directory is maybe the form the way that they do it. And it's a little, it's different than the AD100. It's a directory of designers that they have and they do edit it. There is some vetting, but it's also pay to play. I think it's something like fifteen hundred dollars a year or so to be on this ad approved list. And I kind of wonder whether having this one list that exists in the public consciousness of here's the AD 100 and another that's like here's ad approved, whether that kind of creates confusion like how many people just out there in the world really grasp the distinction between the two things. Does it overwhelm the marketplace with too many ad badges? I won. If that kind of like dulls the impact of the 8100 or sort of what the kind of longer term cultural impacts of having these like two lists are. What do you, what do you think?
- [13:34]
Dennis Scully
Well, I'm always curious and so many in the industry are cynical about these lists so often in general. I was having an off the record conversation with a designer recently who, who said, oh, if I was only spending more money on my PR person, of course I'd be on that list too. I just decided not to spend the money that way. And so I did something else. I don't know. Cynical people all around question all of these lists. And in a way this ad approved pay to get in. Sure. I mean, why not? And maybe it does devalue everything. Else. But maybe some people feel like maybe it's all pay to play. I don't know. I hate to feel that way.
- [14:15]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, I don't think the 8100 is pay to play. I mean, I know what you mean. And that you kind of indirectly pay for it by paying for a publicist who kind of gets you all.
- [14:22]
Dennis Scully
That's what I mean. I get what you're saying. I don't think that Amy Astley taking some money on the side.
- [14:26]
Fred Nicholaus
I just meant more than case of cash.
- [14:28]
Dennis Scully
Amy, you're hiring somebody to help you. And I think it's that way with all these lists, right? I mean, the more somebody is reminding the editors about you, the more likely you are to appear. So I think it's all about participating in the industry in some way. Let me put it that way.
- [14:47]
Fred Nicholaus
A very cynical take from Scully today. I'm supposed to be the cynical, hard bitten one here. All right, let's leave it there.
- [14:53]
Dennis Scully
Okay, we'll move on and we'll talk about Liloi's new brand. Fred?
- [14:58]
Fred Nicholaus
Yes. This week Liloy announced the launch of a new whole home venture called June Liloi. The direct to consumer brand will debut with more than 3,000 SKUs of furniture, lighting, decor, art and rugs. 3,000. That is a lot.
- [15:10]
Dennis Scully
That is a lot of skus. And I wonder, has Cyrus been listening, Fred, to all of your conversations and stories about the challenges of E commerce?
- [15:18]
Fred Nicholaus
I don't know. Well, you know, you gotta get in some way. This is an interesting development. I think in simple terms. Liloi, of course, is a brand that has largely been perceived as being in the wholesale world. They sell to retail stores. They of course, sell direct to designers. This is, I think, the first time that they're going direct to consumers. It's a big collection, 3,000 cubes. That is a lot of stuff across all categories. Furniture, lighting, decor, art and rugs. It is under a different brand name. It's June Liloy, as opposed to just Leloi. But obviously there is that connection to Liloi, I guess. I'm curious, Dennis, why do you think they're doing this? Why is the time right for a big wholesale brand trade oriented brand to do something that reaches consumers directly?
- [16:04]
Dennis Scully
I'm eager to have Cyrus on the show and talk about it. But in thinking about some of the conversations that I've had with him in the past, I think there was one of the things that was going on was they didn't feel they were reaching everybody that they thought they could and should. I also think that they feel like they've built such a strong brand name that this felt like a time that they could expand and build on that. And we should say that there are some other examples in the industry of people who have come from the rug industry or a related industry and built out some of these brands, right, Fred?
- [16:46]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah. I mean, I think this is kind of like a play that has happened before. I mean, I think for every wholesale brand that kind of works with the trade and works with retail stores, there's always this impetus of are we too reliant on one channel of distribution? What if the wholesale business goes down? What do we do? And so there's a natural desire to also sell to consumers that makes your business more stable. As you pointed out, they have these big collections with Joanna Gaines. Joanna Gaines is someone that consumers care. The average person knows. And so why not tap into that a little bit? Lulu in Georgia is a great example of a company that started under very similar circumstances. You had this long running rug wholesale business. And I think the daughter of the founder of that business launched a direct to consumer brand basically out of the showroom in la and it became Lulu in Georgia. Stark has its thing with Ashley Stark where they're going a little bit more direct to consumer. Skylamandres kind of dipped its toe into it. That Artisan Lane, the company that owns American Leather and Lee, has a directing consumer venture called Benchmade Modern. This is kind of a thing that brands do. But I will say it's notable that this is a very big collection. This is very comprehensive. This is not like a diploma. There's not a little toe dip into this market. It's like, this is a big push. And so it's interesting. They clearly really do believe in this model, and it'll be interesting to see how it's received both by consumers and in the trade.
- [18:07]
Dennis Scully
No, I agree. And I think that some of the companies that you just mentioned have had greater success than others. It's not always a magic formula, but I think that they felt that again, the name recognition was strong enough and. And they really wanted to have the rest of the home. They didn't want to just be on the floor on the rug.
- [18:30]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, I mean, as you mentioned, some people have had success with this, others haven't. I think one thing that has changed over the years, though, is that I think historically the knock on this kind of thing would have been like, well, okay, if you're selling to consumers, why is the trade going to keep shopping with you if you become that's always been sort of the reason not to do this kind of thing is to sort of preserve the designer business, not go direct to consumers. But I feel like that kind of thing has just changed over the past five years. I feel like there's less concern around product exclusivity. Also, you know, we should say, of course, that, you know, this is. These are different skus and what they sell and, you know, their other. This is like its own collection. But even so, I feel like people just care, like, less about that stuff. I even noticed that June Lulloy has a trade program. So clearly they're, you know, they're launching this for consumers, but they're like, hey, designers, you might want to shop this as well. So, you know, whether this will succeed or not is tbd. But I do think, like, the risks of, you know, what you might call channel conflicts, like selling both to, you know, the trade in consumers feel less risky than they've ever felt. I don't know if you would agree with that, but that's sort of my loose perception of the marketplace. I feel like designers don't care as much as they may be used to.
- [19:36]
Dennis Scully
I'm not convinced of that. But I hear what you're saying. I mean, I am surprised when some designers say, oh, well, I'll never shop there again the minute it becomes more widely available. So, I mean, I'm always interested in that. I'm also interested every time I go to High Point and have conversations with people about their e commerce strategy, they're reluctant to really throw themselves into it for a host of different distribution conflicts and other reasons. So it's interesting to see Lilloi, not that they're necessarily a High Point company, but that's when I tend to see them. So I think of them that way. But it's interesting to see them take this big step forward, as I think many other similar companies are going to have to in the near future. So I think many will be watching this and seeing what works and what doesn't and how they tweak it going forward. But I think many people who have been sitting on their hands can't wait too much longer. Does that make sense?
- [20:37]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah. No. I mean, retail is unstable and it's weird and it's complicated. And I think that the more that you can get into business directly to consumers yourself, kind of gives you a sort of stability if you can establish that relationship. So. So I agree with you, and I think maybe 2025 we'll see more stuff like this.
- [20:55]
Dennis Scully
Yes. No, I definitely Agree. And we've certainly covered so many retailers going away in 2024 that this is not surprising. So we will stay tuned. Next up, Fred, your favorite two things, Kelly Wurstler and Substack.
- [21:11]
Fred Nicholaus
But it's not just Substack and it's not just Kelly. Some of the industry's biggest designers were busy rolling out new media ventures in recent weeks. Joanna Gaines made her Masterclass debut. Kelly Wurstler, of course, launched a Substack newsletter. Wurstler World and Bunny Williams unveiled a new video series on Create Academy. But yes, we are talking about this. To give me a victory lap on saying that Substack was a new cool platform. Because once Kelly's on board, I mean, it's over.
- [21:39]
Dennis Scully
That's where the cool kids are, clearly. And I know you've been a fan of Substack for a long time. And listen, it seems like it is. It is the space to watch where people can perhaps be a little bit more free. Right. And say some things that they couldn't say in traditional media.
- [21:57]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, I mean, I think, like, so Kelly's letter. Worst of the world. I don't know if you're a subscriber yet, Dennis. I certainly am, of course. Exactly the very first thing you did when it came out. It's gonna publish every Wednesday. And it's a little kind of like risque. You know, the first issue was around, like, I think it was called, like, foot Fetish. Foot Fetish, Exactly, Exactly. I mean, not like it's not like NG17, but it definitely has kind of a little bit of an edge to it. And I do think, you know, probably some people are wondering, like, well, you know, Kelly Wearstler is this celebrity designer. I'm sure she's very busy. Why is she writing, you know, a newsletter for people? But I think, you know, she's always been a little bit of a new media adopter. She was the first person designer to have a masterclass. You know, she was early to like TikTok. She even posts on LinkedIn a lot. I think she really is someone who enjoys sort of playing with new technology. She's a big AI person. She enjoys playing with new media. And Substack, I think, is very much that. So I think it sort of fits a picture for Kelly Wersler. I'm curious to see if it catches on. Maybe it won't work on Substack, but she has always been like an experiment, if nothing else.
- [22:58]
Dennis Scully
Even if it doesn't work in the way perhaps it was intended. I love that it shines a spotlight on Substack and brings a big name person there. And I hope that a lot of people will follow and pay attention because as we've talked about on the show consistently, there are some interesting people who are writing interesting perspectives about the industry and about a whole range of things. And some different voices, some, again, freer voices, I think, which is to me the most interesting part of it.
- [23:27]
Fred Nicholaus
No, completely agreed. And shouts out to our recent podcast guests, David Michon of Forskell and Leonore Epstein of Shmata. Those are two great ones. I've recently been reading this one called Cola Studios by a design firm here in New York. There's just lots of fun design stuff on Substack and I will someday shut up about it, but I could not resist the chance to talk about it because Kelly's on there. But she's not the only one. As we saw, Joanna Gaines had a masterclass that just was unveiled a couple weeks ago. Did you watch the clips for it?
- [23:57]
Dennis Scully
I did. I saw some of that and I see that a lot of people are getting a lot out of it. She's got an incredible array of fans, having spoken with her a couple of times at High Point, the people line up around the block to hear what Joanna Gaines has to say. So I think people are excited to be able to hear her takes and her process. Though Joanna's always been very modest about her whole process and being a designer herself. So it's interesting to see her come forth with a masterclass.
- [24:31]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, I mean, masterclass is this really interesting media business. When you think about it, it's like, like what other platform has like Noam Chomsky, hostage negotiators, Kelly Wersler and Joanna Gaines? Like, it's such a, such an interesting conglomeration and collection of people and I think it's really fun. I haven't watched the Joanna Gaines one, but I bet it's interesting. They do such a good job putting it together. I think for a designer who has the stature to legitimately appear on Masterclass, we've had Kelly Werser was on it, Corey, Damon, Jenkins, Shay McGee, you know, joining games, people who have like real consumer recognition, like, why wouldn't you do it? It's just fun. You position yourself as an expert in the field. I'm sure a lot of your fans get a lot out of it because it's a really, you know, they do a great job really breaking things down into digestible takeaways. So I don't know, I'm just a fan of Stuff like this, I hope more designers do it. And, you know, as we're about to talk about, there's even other platforms that are, you know, gaining popularity, that are sort of masterclass adjacent.
- [25:28]
Dennis Scully
Well, exactly. It's fascinating to see Bunny Williams coming forward with a Create Academy series. That, by the way, is spectacularly beautiful. If you've ever longed to go inside Bunny Williams, home in Connecticut, which is spectacular, her apartment in New York, come into the office. Let us show you the process. It's really spectacular what Bunny and Elizabeth, as well, shared. And besides the incredible learnings, there's just the voyeuristic thrill of it all, of getting to see all of Bunny's homes and spaces and all that she's done with them. So, I mean, to your point, it's an incredible thing for them to be able to share with people who are so interested and so engaged and will be delighted to watch and to learn.
- [26:17]
Fred Nicholaus
I think what all three of these, like, individual moves kind of say to me is that just the design media landscape is changing. That's not really a chakra. But I do think that there's like, the kind of, like, you know, all the big magazines are having their individual struggles. You know, there were recently layoffs at Hearst. You know, it's a difficult time to be in sort of national corporate design media, but if you want to just do your own thing, there's so many more tools and opportunities to do it. I think a lot of new media also rewards, like, a very, very deep dive, you know, it's less about. Here's one article where Bunny Williams recommends, like, what kind of, you know, planter to buy. And it's like you spend three hours with Bunny Williams. For the super fans who really want to invest in that, you know, here's a letter directly from Kelly Wersler, and it could be long, you know, So I think that as sort of what you might call traditional media kind of loses power and influence, designers themselves have a lot more tools at their disposal to make their own media, to do what they want to do and connect directly with fans. And as someone who is a fan and indeed a participant in what you might call traditional media, I have mixed feelings about it. But I do think it's cool to see all these kinds of experiments and new ventures and new things pop up.
- [27:28]
Dennis Scully
I agree. And I think it just, as you say, it speaks to the power that these designers have to just grab a microphone and just say, hey, I want to talk to you over here in this other space and share something meaningful. And it's fascinating to me, Bunny Williams, after all these years, is still sort of on the cutting edge of new media.
- [27:52]
Fred Nicholaus
Right, Exactly.
- [27:53]
Dennis Scully
How cool. Right? I mean, so I love that aspect of it as well. And I know that people will just get so much out of all of these things that we just discussed. So now we're going to move on to the big hot topic of the show, Fred, the designer versus decorator debate. So this week, for Business of Home, Fred, you waded into some dangerous waters with a look at why people call themselves designers and others call themselves decorators. What can you tell us?
- [28:26]
Fred Nicholaus
Put on your hazmat suit, Dennis. This one's toxic. I think I was just sort of. I mean, I was partially inspired, actually, by a panel that you had at High Point, where I think it was called Fearless Female Founders or Fierce. What was it called again?
- [28:39]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, I. Exactly. Fierce Female Founders, I believe. So we were going for a lot of alliteration in that one.
- [28:44]
Fred Nicholaus
Exactly. And the topic of designer versus decorator came up, and it kind of got me thinking. It's also just so interesting how this industry has evolved so much over the past 25 years. Interior design is such a bigger part of, you know, the average American's consciousness, but there is still this, like, weird underlying tension in the industry around, like, what is it actually called? And so I kind of. I thought it might be fun and potentially risky to dive into that conversation, I guess I'm curious before we really get into it. You've been in the industry a little bit longer than I have, and you grew up in maybe a little bit more of a design milieu than I did. What did you call it when you were coming into the industry? Was it decorator? Was it designer? What's your history with the difference between those two terms?
- [29:27]
Dennis Scully
I think decorator was very much the Upper east side term that I grew up with. You had a decorator. They were coming and working on your apartment. And the interior designer label, in my mind, came much later. And I don't really know when that really shifted in a meaningful way. I know we should talk about the design school and what that meant, but definitely growing up, all of my parents friends had decorators.
- [30:01]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah. And I mean, I think that is a big component here, is that historically, in the sort of early days of the profession, it was a decorator. You know, Elsie DeWolf was a decorator. Billy Baldwin called himself a decorator, and even Mario Boata called himself a decorator. That was kind of just the term of art for what people do in this world. And it's interesting because I think, generally speaking, people agree that it kind of started to change around the 80s and 90s. It's very hard to. Like, there was no royal proclamation that said, now we call them designers, but people say kind of in the 80s and 90s is when it started to change. But it's interesting if you look at the history. Nice. And, you know, the New York School of Interior Design actually changed its name in 1951 from the new York School of Interior Decoration to New York School of Interior Design. And at the time, they said it was sort of about the. The dignity and professionalism of what they were doing. And so there has been this, you know, kind of inclination to move away from decorator towards design even as early as the 50s. I was sort of surprised by that. But I do think that the cultural change came much later.
- [31:01]
Dennis Scully
I get the sense that people are pretty worked up about this. So I wonder if there was a real meaningful groundswell back then that caused them to make the change.
- [31:12]
Fred Nicholaus
What people say, kind of anecdotally, is that the shift from decorator to designer was sort of meant to convey, hey, this is a real profession. People are going to school for this. They're getting degrees, they're getting certifications. In some case. This isn't just about making one aesthetic choice and spending the client's money. It's this elevated profession. And we need to call this design because that has this kind of modern, cosmopolitan ring to it in a way that maybe Deckrator didn't at the time. But the cultural meaning of words is very slippery. You know what I mean? I think most people would agree that interior design should be taken seriously, or at least most people is to. This podcast would agree with that. But some people feel that it went too far in the other direction, and it almost became less about professionalizing the industry and more about putting people down for being just a decorator. And I think that's the pressure point that makes it a heated debate sometimes even still.
- [32:10]
Dennis Scully
Well, that's what I'm so curious about. I did a post on social media, and a lot of people responded, and it was really interesting to hear from an array of designers. Summer Thornton weighed in and said, if decorator is good enough for Dorothy, meaning Dorothy Draper, it's good enough for me. And Ashley Whitaker said, designers have degrees and decorators don't. She says, I was so proud to be a decorator, I went to the school of hard knocks, she said. But interestingly, Colette Van Den Tillart wrote to me something that stuck with me that she's leaned more towards decorator now because this new association with free interior design services or reality show reveals has sort of made her want to shy away from interior designer and lean back into decorator. So, I don't know, a lot of people felt very strongly, I got a degree. I took that wretched test. I want to be called an interior designer, and don't call me a decorator. And I thought it was interesting in the conversation with Andre Malone just recently when he was going to. To leave Robert a.m. stern's office and go work for Mark hampton. And Robert a.m. stern said, you're going to go work for a decorator. You're going to leave me and my prestige and go work for someone who focuses on throw pillows. So, I mean, it's interesting how some people get very worked up about it. Most of the designers said to me, the clients don't care anyway, so call me whatever you want, pay my bill, and you can call me whatever you want was a big takeaway.
- [33:50]
Fred Nicholaus
I mean, I think the one thing that everyone on either side, or maybe there's not just two sides, but everyone on all sides of this debate can agree that clients generally don't care. This is a little bit more of like an industry debate. But, you know, it is interesting how, you know, there is no law that says you have to have a degree to call yourself an interior designer. And I think that, as you know, the term of, you know, just the generally accepted term in the public has become interior designer. That creates a natural incentive for people to call themselves interior designers because they want clients who are looking for someone for help with their home to find them. And so, you know, there was one source in the story who said, you know, I may be a little more comfortable with decorator. I think there's. I think it's. I'm proud to be a decorator, but for marketing purposes, I call myself an interior designer simply because people can find me on Google if they're googling interior designer in my neighborhood. So I think, you know, it just. There's so many different ways to approach this. I do think it's cool, though, that people are trying to reclaim decorator because I think there was always something maybe a little bit snobby about being, oh, you're just a decorator. I mean, being able to create a mood and atmosphere, even if you're not tearing down walls. Being able to create a beautiful home, even if you're not getting into the plumbing, is an incredibly valuable skill. And I sort of feel like denigrating that kind of work has always had a kind of lightly sexist, gendered connotation. It's a little bit, there's something a little bit, bit kind of nasty about the just a decorator phenomenon. So I think people should rightly be proud of their education and their certifications, and there's nothing wrong with celebrating that. But I think there's room enough for everybody in the industry with every level of education to be celebrated for the great work that they do. So I guess cooling down the temperature of the debate, I guess, is what I'm advocating for here in a rather roundabout fashion.
- [35:36]
Dennis Scully
No, no, I agree. And I have nothing but respect for everyone who goes on to, to get a design degree and who, as I say, gets through that exam. And I think that people are definitely heated about it. And I agree with you. Let's bring down the temperature a little bit. And I don't want this to be one of the things that gets in the way of more people hiring interior designers, which is a topic we talk about often. So I want there to be enormous respect for this industry and what people do regardless of what they want to call themselves. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including the industry's latest new hires and advice on affordable investments in your firm. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break. We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Anthem plus smartshelf showering only from Kohler. With Anthem plus, you can design a showering escape that commands up to 12 water outlets, supports custom lighting environments to match any mood, and allows for three levels of soothing steam set to music from personal playlists. Every moment asks the user to imagine. When you take a shower, where does your shower take you? Explore Anthem+ smart showering@kohler.com Showers and now back to the show. And we're back. We mentioned last week on the show that Atlanta Homes and Lifestyles has a new owner. Here to tell us about it is Elizabeth Rawls, the publication's publisher. Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining us.
- [37:27]
Elizabeth Rawls
Dennis, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be a part of your show today.
- [37:31]
Dennis Scully
Well, I'm delighted to have you, and I'm eager to learn more about what led up to this acquisition and you forming an entity to acquire the publication. It sounds like this has been in the works for some time. Tell me about it.
- [37:44]
Elizabeth Rawls
Yes, absolutely, Dennis. So I have Spent the better part of my career with Atlanta homes and lifestyles. Two different stints over the course of of 13 years, and first as the managing editor in 2006, and then took some time off to raise my family and came back as the magazine's editor in chief in 2013. I was named the publisher in 2020. And, yeah, as you just said, I am the new owner of Atlanta Homes and Lifestyles, effective this month. So certainly have a lot of sweat equity in the business. And I had to tell my. Our owner, Adam Jabko of esteemed media, that I was pregnant with baby number four and that I was not quite sure of what my path was going to be with the magazine moving forward and how I was going to reconcile spending so much time in my role at the magazine and also welcoming a new addition. And Adam, at that time, he said, you know, don't make any decisions.
- [38:49]
Dennis Scully
Don't do anything rare. Elizabeth?
- [38:51]
Elizabeth Rawls
Yeah, I already had no. Let's talk. And he said, listen, I'm not. I want you to do what's, you know, best for, for you and your family. But I did want to let you know that, you know, looking down the road, I always had you in mind as the successor for the magazine. You know, you've done so much for me and the business. You know, you're so closely aligned with Atlanta Homes and Lifestyles. It wouldn't be the brand without you. You know, there's certainly a large degree of flattery involved, but also, Dennis, really buttering you up. But also, but also, you know, just a path that I had never considered.
- [39:32]
Dennis Scully
So at the time when you were having this conversation with Adam, what was running through your head and what were the options that you were considering at the time?
- [39:42]
Elizabeth Rawls
You know, since COVID right, we've all that work life balance, you know, has come into play. And, and I think that we were able to achieve a lot more of that work life balance. And also, Dennis, I was able to really bring in some more personnel, so to speak, with that decision to help me with moving forward with this transaction. And those, of course, were things that were not running through my head during that conversation, but those were things we were able to implement after that conversation, of course, with some thought, a lot of thought put into that going, okay, what are the things that I need to really put the wheels in motion and set myself up for success, to be able to take over this magazine and still be able to be with my family and have that work life balance that, you know, took Covid kind of affording me Tell us a little.
- [40:31]
Dennis Scully
Bit of the history of the, of the magazine for those that might not be overly familiar, and when it got started and what was the thinking behind it. And then let's talk about the, the evolution and how involved you are in the community there.
- [40:45]
Elizabeth Rawls
So the magazine was founded in 1983, and so we're over 40 years old. And certainly the magazine has evolved several times since the 80s. But I think the appeal of the brand through at least the last decade has changed a lot. And a lot of that has to do with what's happening in the design media world at large. You know, I feel fortunate to have started my career at what was probably the glory days, the heyday.
- [41:16]
Dennis Scully
Who knew, who knew that those were the glory days?
- [41:20]
Elizabeth Rawls
And thankfully, that has carried my passion forward because I'll never forget, you know, starting out with Southern living at one of the biggest publishing houses in the South. You know, we really are continuing that mission of inspiring, of educating, of really showcasing, you know, full bleed feature wells where you can really step into the page. And so that, of course, the print publication is still very much our bread and butter. And we are really supported by the fact that we produce these live events here. And so currently we are in the throes of our home for the Holidays Designer Show House, where we've been fortunate enough to see some sold out crowds for over half of of the dates that were open. And then in March we produced a tour of kitchens. And then in April and May we have another franchise that's more spring focused. That's the Southeastern Designer show house. And so those live events really allow us to engage with our audience in a much more direct manner. And so I think that is, that has really allowed us, those events have afforded us the opportunity to be so ingrained in the community and to really thrive and prosper and not just in our community. Dennis, I think throughout the southeastern design community, I want to talk a little.
- [42:52]
Dennis Scully
Bit about the culture and how people live and entertain in Atlanta. We've spoken in the past about how focused so much of the design industry is on Atlanta, what an important market it is for so many companies. And part of that is because design is so celebrated in the south and Atlanta specifically, the way people live and entertain and like to have people over and show off their homes in a way.
- [43:26]
Elizabeth Rawls
Yes, yes, absolutely. So, you know, Dennis, having grown up in the Midwest and lived in the Northeast and now having been in the Southeast since 2006, I can say yes, without a doubt, Southerners love their homes, right? I mean, that is why there has always been these publications in the South. Right. Whether it's Southern Living or Veranda, you know, there has always been this sort of idolization I should of home. And I think certainly our climate has a lot to do with that. We are able to entertain nine months a year outside. We're able to tend to our gardens during that time and really entertain with the exception of a few colder months in the winter.
- [44:15]
Dennis Scully
I'm curious, Elizabeth, you mentioned earlier in the conversation having made this transition from the editorial side to becoming the publisher. And I'm curious how you see things having been on both sides of the publication in that way, how you look at what you want to do with the publication and how it informs some of your long term vision for what you think is possible.
- [44:43]
Elizabeth Rawls
Sure, absolutely. I mean, I know when I made the transition from editor in chief to publisher, I remember getting a lot of questions of is that an easy transition? How did that come about? And are you, do you have that business acumen, you know, to make that transition? And I will say, having grown up, so to speak, with this brand and having spent the better part of my career building this brand and coming from the ground up, there's a lot to be learned from that on the job experience. And I think coming into my role there was actually a benefit in not knowing what you didn't know. You had the ability to question, to say, why are we still using this service that we've used for the last 10 years and what is it really providing our salespeople? Or we started Shopify, we started a back issue platform. Why are we sending these one off? Why haven't we automated this process? There was certainly just a degree of modernizing those processes when I stepped into the publisher role in 2020, and I feel very much stepping into the role of an owner in 2024 that I'm kind of going back to Those days of 2020, looking at a lot of these providers and contracts that we have.
- [46:10]
Dennis Scully
Geez, who's been the publisher of this magazine all these years?
- [46:14]
Elizabeth Rawls
Well, yeah.
- [46:15]
Dennis Scully
Is that how you're walking in?
- [46:17]
Fred Nicholaus
Who's been making these decisions?
- [46:19]
Elizabeth Rawls
And even more so on the back end, I should say things like fulfillment and news distribution, you know, going what. This has even changed so much since COVID What, you know, how can we change this? Or what steps are we going to take moving forward to make this so much easier on the consumer? Why do they have to wait eight to 10 weeks, right. To get the magazine?
- [46:43]
Dennis Scully
What can we do once they subscribe?
- [46:45]
Elizabeth Rawls
Right, exactly.
- [46:46]
Dennis Scully
Yeah.
- [46:47]
Elizabeth Rawls
Why are we still getting paper checks? Which is also great. Right. Because we've got an audience who still trusts us with those.
- [46:55]
Dennis Scully
I know that you are attracting this younger audience, this broader audience than ever before, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are about what that kind of audience wants and is looking for from a publication.
- [47:12]
Elizabeth Rawls
Yeah, sure. I mean, it's a challenge, right? We've had this demographic that has been so good to us for the last 20 years, I should say, and is still, still so actively involved. Right. But now we're looking to the next generation and you know, in 2025, that means you can ask AI to design your dream house. I think where Atlanta Homes and Lifestyles plays into that is, you know, having that authoritative role, given the amount of time we've been in the market is people are looking to us to source the consumer is. So they are saying, not just that age old question, how can I find that paint color or where can I get the fabric on those draperies? But it's very much where can I find the blacksmith who can help me execute that custom iron railing that I saw on that sweeping staircase in your last issue? Who was the vendor who did that beautiful hand hammered mirror on the backsplash in the bar that I saw at your show house? These are very much specific questions and specific design sources, especially from a custom standpoint that our audience is looking to the magazine for.
- [48:32]
Dennis Scully
You referenced AI and the incredible abilities that we're already seeing both visually and from a data search perspective. And I'm curious if people are pitching you on AI ideas to help you find greater efficiencies or if you've even fooled around with it yourself a little bit to see how it might be helpful.
- [48:57]
Elizabeth Rawls
We were writing some descriptions of our holiday show house for our website. And so I gave AI the opportunity, I submitted my copy and gave them the opportunity to make it more clever or funny. I think there are a couple adjectives you could plug in. And it wrote back and said it looked, you know, it looked pretty good. It didn't have a lot of changes. So I was not super impressed with that. But no, I will say I've asked. I've talked to some designers and architects who have used AI to help them take notes during client conversations, which I think is super smart because how much have we missed, right, by handwriting or even typing, typing up notes? You know, we. I listen to an AI generated podcast, Dennis, which you might find no, I know.
- [49:47]
Dennis Scully
I'm all too familiar with the Google.
- [49:49]
Elizabeth Rawls
LM and for a local Publication had essentially condensed what was a program for a local tour of homes and used all the copy about the tour of homes that was taking place here in Atlanta and generated a podcast about it. And wow, the cadence and everything was. Was pretty fascinating and frightening all at once. So no, again, I mean, we going back to that old friend and going back to the fact that we, you know, are sort of really all about the sources and the people. AI is not a focus as of right now.
- [50:28]
Dennis Scully
Tell me about show houses and what you're sort of bringing to life and how it is servicing people in the community.
- [50:35]
Elizabeth Rawls
So of course, you know, the mission of the print publication is to inspire and to educate, and certainly we do that through the content. But I think one thing, one way that the magazine has evolved is through these events, such as our show houses, such as our tour of kitchens, where we are truly bringing the pages to life and bringing our audience out into the community to meet the designers who are responsible, the cabinet makers who are responsible, and even the fabricators and the stone providers, right? And so through these houses, they really become these pop up showrooms, these pop up shops, sort of networking opportunities and lead generations for our clients. And for again, it goes back to the sourcing of our consumers who are really looking for people to hire in their own homes.
- [51:35]
Dennis Scully
We often talk about the perceived advantage or strength that these hyper focused regional publications have. And I think part of it is just what you were describing. You know, the people that are involved in your showhouses, but your advertisers, you just have a different level of closeness in the relationship. And that, I think, is one of the advantages that regional publications have. Do you see it that way?
- [52:06]
Elizabeth Rawls
Yes, absolutely, Dennis. So I think we're held accountable, right? Just as our clients. We are seeing our clients in the grocery store. We're seeing them in our neighborhood. They live in our neighborhoods. The publication has become really a connection point between the luxury consumer and between the luxury design market. And of course, that doesn't happen overnight. That's something that we've established through the years. We've got two people on our sales team who have been with the magazine for over 34 years, which is also unique.
- [52:39]
Dennis Scully
I'm curious a little bit, and I'd love to hear your perspective about the aesthetic evolution, if you will, of design in Atlanta. I was thinking about this. I was at the R. Hughes holiday party here in New York and it was so exciting that they have a showroom at last in New York. But I was thinking back to when I first visited their Showroom in Atlanta. Not only how impressive it was and how hip, cool, contemporary. I think at the time, we called it the coolest showroom in America. But it was surprising on some levels to see a space with all of those different, very contemporary furniture and lighting brands in a market where we might not have thought there was a great deal of demand for that. They've obviously been incredibly successful, Ryan and Stephen. But I remember the impact that that showroom made, and I wonder if you can talk to me a little bit about that and the evolution of the aesthetic.
- [53:45]
Elizabeth Rawls
Yes. Oh, my gosh. Absolutely. So, yeah, certainly when Ryan and Stephen opened our Hughes in Atlanta, when they debuted that showroom in adac, it was almost like a mic drop. They were pioneering this much, I shouldn't say new aesthetic, but Atlanta is a big transplant market. We've got. We're home to a ton of Fortune 500 companies. There are people moving in from both coasts. They're bringing their aesthetics with them, and they are not as ingrained in this traditional market that, you know, where we started in the 80s and still certainly have a strong, strong inkling towards. You know, Atlanta is changing. And I think the brands that Ryan and Stephen brought to our Hughes have really helped a new generation of designers as well, really talk to and speak to the aesthetic that is being cultivated by a younger generation, by transplants, by people who are moving to Atlanta, and they're not. They're not tied down to maybe the traditional, you know, of earlier generations that were either maybe inheriting homes from their parents or, you know, inheriting aesthetics or even, you know, we certainly see cases of architects, designers, and builders who work with the parents and then they work with their children. You know, that sort of handed down aesthetic.
- [55:15]
Dennis Scully
Atlanta has grown so tremendously just in the past few years, but certainly over the last 10. And I'm wondering the real estate scene right now in Atlanta and in your whole area that you cover, and I'm curious, related to that, if people are feeling more optimistic about the coming year. We've talked so much about the housing market struggling a bit and existing home sales suffering because people have low interest rates and not putting their homes on the markets. And for the people that want to buy, interest rates have been higher than they would like. Like, is all of that playing out and what are you sensing is happening right now?
- [55:57]
Elizabeth Rawls
Yes, we certainly feel, as, you know, small business owners, we do feel like we are privy to the nuances of the market. And of course, every election cycle, there's always some trepidation going into the election and then ultimately the finality, I think, is everyone realizes once again that it really doesn't change everything all that much. But certainly I do feel like in the real estate sector, which we do have a lot of clients in that area, is there's a lot of enthusiasm for 2025, and I think there's cautious optimism, Dennis, is what we're hearing.
- [56:41]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, no, no, that certainly makes sense. As I think you and I have talked in the past, survive to 25 and thrive has very much been the mantra.
- [56:51]
Elizabeth Rawls
Yes, absolutely. I'm putting that on my wall.
- [56:55]
Dennis Scully
It looks like we're finally here. So I'm hoping 25 is the thrive time for everyone with that in mind. And I know you just acquired this publication, but are you thinking longer term, hey, let me get this under my belt and then look to some other markets and see where your knowledge and your strengths could help in some other regions with strong regional publications.
- [57:27]
Elizabeth Rawls
Sure, absolutely. I mean, it's funny, Dennis, I heard when we announced the news, I heard from some designers in other markets going, hey, come to Charleston, come to Dallas, come here and help us with our publication. And we could use some help. You know, our strength certainly lies in being hyper local. And so with that, I kind of struggle about how we would be able to make inroads in other markets without those, you know, stay and tried and true relationships.
- [57:55]
Dennis Scully
Yeah, well, I mean, there certainly seem to be other opportunities for you, so, I mean, again, I know that you need to catch your breath and figure out everything you're doing in Atlanta, but it does seem that the regional model has room to grow. Certainly it was very clear, Elizabeth, from so many of the people that I spoke to, that there was a tremendous sense of relief in a way that you were acquiring the publication and that you were going to be at the helm and leading it into the future. You're obviously very well thought of in your market, and people feel very passionately about the magazine and everything that you've done. So I hope that that feels good for you.
- [58:38]
Elizabeth Rawls
Yes, absolutely. I had an architect friend reach out and say when I relayed the news, and he said, everything is as it should be. And I just kind of got tickled about that comment because there was a lot. A lot of people are happy to see this come local. It makes a lot of sense. Right. Bring this back home. Keep it under the people who have been sort of the guardians of the title for a long time. And really, I just am so honored, and it's very rewarding.
- [59:08]
Dennis Scully
Well, I'm excited for you. And I'm, and I'm looking forward to checking back in with you and seeing how it's all going and what you're going to be up to next. As I said, it's such an important market, so a lot of people have their focus on Atlanta, so lots of opportunity for you. Thank you so much for making the time to talk with me.
- [59:28]
Elizabeth Rawls
Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much, Dennis. I appreciate it.
- [59:37]
Dennis Scully
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye.
- [59:44]
Fred Nicholaus
Fred Mocha Moose caught my eye. Pantone shows its color of the year, and the color of the year is Mocha Moose, sort of a brownish brown. You know, color, color, Colors of the year are marketing exercises, basically. And there's a little bit, they're a little bit silly and sometimes they're clickbait. Every year I try and keep track of who's the first person to send me the Pantone Color of the Year pitch, and I will not reveal the publicist name who sent me. But it was very quick. After it was announced, there was someone who jumped in with a pitch about all the furniture that they had in their client roster that met the Mocha Moose moment. I just think it's kind of interesting, because I think we actually talked about this last year, is that so many designers predicted that brown would be the color of the year. You know, everyone talks about sad beige. You know, I do think it's just kind of like this color of the year choice from Pantone probably didn't move the conversation forward, but it did reflect the reality that kind of against all odds, brown is the color of the moment. So it's, it's, it's interesting just to see them kind of put a stamp on it. And, you know, I'm not a huge fan of the name Mocha Moose. It mostly makes me hungry. But I don't think there's any denying that they've captured what a lot of people are putting in their homes. Do you have any Mocha Moose in your house, Dennis?
- [60:55]
Dennis Scully
Well, was it El Decor that wrote about brown being the color of wealth and really leaned into it? And I believe that when we had Tori Malott on the show, she was quite passionate about brown herself. And I believe Brown or Bust was a memorable moment from that conversation station. So a lot of Brown fans out there, to be sure.
- [61:13]
Fred Nicholaus
Well, what caught your eye this weekend?
- [61:16]
Dennis Scully
What caught my eye was last Night I was at the Holly Hunt showroom, the big one on 3rd Avenue, and there is a brand new floor set there with a lot of incredible Vladimir Kagan pieces and an array of cool lighting and just. And it reminded me of the fact that there are so few companies that you can really think of their creative director. So Holly Hunt's creative director, a woman who's been there for 20 plus years, Joanna Cornak is really a spectacular creative director. And it's worth going to see every new floor set that she does just because it's so dramatic. I'm actually going to go because I didn't get to all the floors because of the crowded event last night for Holly's book. But it reminded me that there are still these powerful creative directors in the industry, that it's just fascinating to see what they do and to know who they are and see the impact that they have. And Joanna worked under Holly for so many years and I think had been really leading the way for years before, even before Holly stepped away from the business and now gets to. Gets to really be on her own. She just redid Miami, she just redid New York, and it's always worth seeing what she's done.
- [62:41]
Fred Nicholaus
Yeah, it's always been kind of strange that our industry doesn't have as many kind of like visible creative directors as you might have in fashion or other industries. But they exist and, you know, we need to focus more attention on them. So I'm glad you called her out.
- [62:52]
Dennis Scully
No, no, I agree. And as I say, it's definitely worth a trip. So designers, go and check it out. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Fraser McCullough. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.