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Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Why Havenly bought The Expert. Plus: The uber-affluent are spending big on security
01:07:41
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, Havenly CEO Lee Mayer joins the show to talk about her acquisition of design platform The Expert.
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This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on I'll be speaking with Havenly CEO Lee Mayer about acquiring the Expert. But first we're going to catch up on the news, including another big acquisition, why Williams Sonoma is teaming up with
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the maker of ChatGPT, and why the
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ultra affluent are doubling down on home security. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nikolaus. Hi, Fred.
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Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
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Just great. How you doing?
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C
Doing great. Happy Mardi Gras.
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A
Yes.
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C
Laissez les bon temps.
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A
He said, sorry I'm not wearing my beads, but yeah.
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C
Are you giving up anything for Lent? Maybe foregoing ivory boucle or what's your promise to the listeners?
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A
You know, there's been a lot of pressure maybe, I know a lot of people give up chocolate, but I really right. Can't bring myself to do that. I don't know. What do you think I could scale back on during this time?
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C
Well, maybe we can solicit suggestions from the listeners rather. But in the meantime, let's look back on Monday's episode of Conversation with Seth Kaplowitz. Interesting figure in the design industry, a lawyer, a strategic advisor, a haver of hot takes, a great guy to talk to. And I love the conversation. What'd you think?
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A
I agree. I love the conversation. It's always great to talk with Seth when we're not talking about West Wing episodes. We're talking about the vast data that he collects on all of his clients and the businesses that they run. And there were so many interesting takeaways in this conversation. I'm grateful to him for sharing such a masterclass level discussion. What jumped out to you?
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C
Well, I love, we often have this conversation, the business of home designers sort of grappling with how they should charge for their services. And we try and frame our coverage kind of like, well, some people feel this way or some people feel that way. Seth just like, no, I know the answer. This is the answer. This is right. This is the right way to do it. And you'll have to listen to the show to figure out what the right way to charge is. But he makes a very convincing case for his thesis. And I do think it's a unique position of privilege to have all these really high end designers that you're working with because you really see how their businesses work. And I think it makes his advice all the more credible.
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I agree. And it's interesting because you and I talk about lists a lot on the show and the importance of those lists and we might be talking more about
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C
that in the future. Maybe no spoilers.
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But yeah, teaser, teaser. But I thought it was interesting that he very clearly said, listen, the truth is that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to have greater revenues or greater income, but you might have a lot more optionality, which was a big theme of the show. Optionality. You might have a lot more choices. And that was an interesting one. Fred and I are always worried, oh, is it too long? Should we cut this? Should we cut that? We left it longer and I'm going,
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we did a lot of good stuff in there, for sure.
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For sure. I hope people enjoy it. Please let me know. In the meantime, we're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news.
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This podcast is sponsored by laloy. Behind every Laloy rug is a web of people woven together. What began as a small family business in Dallas, Texas in 2004 has grown to a family of over 750 employees who help bring their rugs, pillows and wall art to life.
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Their work is inspired by the quiet
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conviction that things made well have the power to provide comfort for generations. Learn more@leloyrugs.com that's L O L O I rugs.com and follow laloyloirugs on Instagram and TikTok. This podcast is proudly sponsored by Morris Company. Step into a story One hundred and sixty four years in the making, Morrison Company has collaborated with the Huntington in California to unveil a remarkable new collection featuring 26 brand new wallpaper and fabric designs created from unfinished sketches by William Morris and his contemporaries. Using original incomplete artwork that has been tucked away for more than a century, The Morris Co. Design studio faithfully finished these historic sketches, transforming them designs crafted for today but deeply rooted in Morris creative vision. Discover this brand new chapter in Morris and company's story on wmorrisandco.com.
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And we're back. First up, Fred, we get to talk about the Expert.
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Yeah, big news. The design platform known as the Expert has been acquired. Havenly is the buyer. Now. We're going to have Lee Mayer, Havenly's CEO, on the show in a little bit, so stick around for that and we'll try to step too much on the toes of that conversation, but we got to talk about this one. What was your initial reaction to the news here?
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Dennis well, I mean, it was the shot heard round the world, I feel. What the Expert. I mean, so many people had an Opinion, a take. I certainly knew that a lot was going on with the Expert and lots of conversations were being had. We had had the relatively new CEO on not too long ago and it was clear that of one kind or another were coming. Didn't know necessarily it would be this.
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What about you?
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C
Yeah, I mean, there was something in the air going on with the Expert and now we know what that thing was. I think we should just kind of quickly rewind. I think most people listening to this will know what the Expert is. But just to bring everybody up to speed, it was founded in 2021 by designer Jake Arnold and his friend, the entrepreneur Leo Siegel. And it was a very simple concept. It was just video consultations with high end designers and you charge a lot of money for it. But it really took the industry by stor. It took off like a rocket. Suddenly everybody was talking about the expert. Everybody wanted to be on the expert. They were very good at curating the people that everyone looks to in the industry for direction and guidance. And it was a hot ticket for a couple years and it remains a fairly hot ticket even today. But over the years the business has sort of evolved. I think one of the problems with the Expert from the very beginning is really cool business video consultations with top designers. Great idea, but it's limited to the top designers. They have to figure out a way to grow and make more money. And so they got into E commerce and that's been a bigger part of their. And I think sort of the question that you and I have talked about off mic and on mic in some cases is how are they going to grow this thing to satisfy their venture capital investors? And I think that's kind of the pressure to some degree that has led to this deal.
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A
Very much so. And I think, as you say, you and I have talked often and we've had Jake and Leo on several times and we've spent a lot of time talking and thinking about this company. And it, like many companies in this space, seems to have run into that sea where they couldn't perhaps grow any further without either the money for a really big team to build out all the things that they needed or some way of helping them get to the next level. And so a deal like this ultimately becomes necessary.
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C
Yeah, it's interesting. You know, again, you and I have talked about this off mic and on slack and in DMs, but it's all
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Fred and I talk about.
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I mean, we do talk about that and RH I think are the two main subjects. But I mean like it's, it's long fascinated me thinking like, what's going to happen with the Expert? Because it doesn't seem like a big enough company to go public. It's going to probably get acquired, was the thinking. But who's, who's going to be the acquirer? Like, yes, I thought for a while going to be Hearst or Conde Nast. I mean they do so much to build up the reputation of these, these designers. It makes sense that they would try and sort of get in on it. Then is it, is it going to be a big retailer? You know, so I was, I was thinking along those lines. Definitely was not thinking about Havenly, but it kind of makes sense. I mean both, you know, Havenly started off doing E Design and then become much more of like a retail product oriented. The Experts started off doing video consultations and then ultimately became more of a product business. I mean to the trade, not to consumers. And so they have similar trajectories. They just sort of operate in different parts of the market. And that's kind of the, I guess the big risks of this deal is that the expert strength is really that it puts together the most well known designers in the industry and it's very kind of high end coded. And that's the vibe of the Expert. Is that magic going to go away now that they're partnering with a brand that really targets, you know, mostly consumer?
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I agree. And I think your point about who was going to buy this, Fred and I would be speculating who had the most to gain from acquiring an asset like this. And often I think about the Jake Arnold halo of the whole thing. So many of the designers that I spoke to who signed on early on for the Expert, they did it because Jake Arnold reached out to them and asked them. Right. And so there was that halo that he brought to it. And I think he could have, they could have lifted many brands by associating with the expert. And I honestly, at one point you mentioned Conde Nast. I honestly thought, you know, would Architectural Digest benefit from it somehow? And then I saw them sort of trying to do some kind of consultation type business themselves. Right. So I thought, oh, okay, so I guess you're not buying the experts.
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Yeah, because you're doing the Expert, you're
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going this other path. And again, would a big retail brand have benefited from this access to all of these designers and would have all these designers have stayed if it was
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a big retail brand buying them?
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Right.
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Yeah. What if Gary Friedman had come knocking? That would have been the Longest Thursday show ever.
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We never would have stopped talking about it.
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Yeah. But I do think, you know, and it's funny because I'm, you know, I've talked about this with Lee for the article I wrote about this, and also with the CEO, the expert, Leanne, you know, Leanne Blake. You know, you talked about this with her. You're going to talk about this with her shortly. You know, I think they are aware that there is, there are, you know, sensitivities in the industry around this and they will have to contend with that. It's a precarious thing. Right. Because I think what powers you know, the success of the experts like Trade Marketplace is that designers see all these like high end other designers on the platform. They're like, I kind of want to be involved with that. They show up and they start, you know, shopping through the trade platform. If you don't have all these high end designers there, I think some of the magic goes away. So I think that's like the big, that is a risk for them. You know, I think if they keep delivering for all their customers, it'll be fine. But that's the immediate sensitivity that sort of occurred to me when I looked at this deal. We were talking before the show started about this other thing that I think what Havenly brings to the expert is that they have technology, they have logistics, they have a lot of a whole organization built around their brands. Lee was really, I'm talking about, Lee Mayer here was really ambitious about giving the expert a lot more purchasing tools and making it almost like project management software. What would you make of all that?
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Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of tools that Havenly can provide. And you can imagine the procurement side of the expert being built out and not just with the array of brands that Havenly offers, but there are all sorts of tools. And again, this is why one imagines that it made a great deal of sense for the expert because the expert would have had to go off and build all these tools themselves and hire all these people. And so Havenly has all of that. And can they seamlessly integrate all of their tools into the expert? We'll see. And again, can they do all that? Can they make the changes that will be most beneficial while retaining all of that great design talent on the platform?
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C
Yeah. And I mean, I was struck so much in talking with Lee about how last week we talked about this company called Anywhere, which wants to sort of organize all the information in the industry that designers have to go pecking around and finding Lee was Talking about the same problem, it really made me think that someone is going to solve this problem of design designers having such a hard time sourcing from all these different companies. I know you're a little bit skeptical. I know you feel like the trade is kind of like the Russian winter. It just kills anyone who comes near it and tries to disrupt it. But it's exciting at least to see people try.
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I agree. And just as you say, it's exciting to see people try. And I think that that's sort of the message. And listen, I'm only skeptical because I've been doing this show for so many years where I bring all these people on and they tell me about this great new tool they're building or this great new company that's going to make this EAS easier or that easier, and they get to a certain scale they're going to make. We were talking about building before we came on the air, and we're going to make it easier for designers to specify custom furniture online. And it's going to be great. But scaling it just turns out to be really hard. And again, let's just focus on delivering heavy furniture and all of the logistics around that is just really hard. And to do it at scale and
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to do it at a white glove
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level and then to bring all these to the trade resources, you know, the expert and their whole showroom model is putting Pierre Frais fabric on vintage furniture pieces. And that's a whole other layer of complication. So there's just a lot in there. And it's a tough business. And Lee Mayer has her hands full, as she well knows.
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This time's different, Dennis. This time's different. No, but I hear you. It's a tough road to hoe. And, well, I'm excited to see where it all goes.
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I am, too, and I'm thrilled that we get to talk about it and see where it goes. And I look forward to having everyone back to check in with them. In the meantime, we have another acquisition to talk about. Haworth, the Michigan furniture giant, has purchased Heller, John Edelman's company. As part of the deal, Edelman will also take on a fancy new role.
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It's very fancy, and I hope I don't butcher these names, but he'll be president of north and South America for Haworth's lifestyle division, which is their conglomerate of largely Italian design brands like Cappellini, Casina, Pultrona, Frau and Zenata and Cecceciotti. I'm not sure how to say that, Dennis, you're going to have to help me.
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Wait till you're over in Milan, Fred. This is going to roll off your tongue.
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I'm going to get Pelters for that one when I head over to Italy. But yeah, so a big new role for John Edelman. And it's funny because I feel like the last time I spoke with him about Heller or a couple years ago when he was launching it, it was like, yeah, I'm going to kind of keep this low key and I'm going to enjoy exercising every day. I'm slowing down a little bit. This is the opposite of that.
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This is the opposite of that. No more walks on the beach for John is putting the uniform back on and getting out there. And you gotta believe. And we'll have him on the show next week, hopefully. But you gotta believe that he's been dying to get back at it for a while.
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C
Yes. I mean, how should we think about this deal? So it's, you know, they acquired Heller, they acquired John Elliman or they hired John Elliman. I think it's probably a combination of, you know, certainly wanted to pick up Heller, but certainly wanted to have John on board, too. Hayworth is a company you probably don't talk about enough. They're privately held, so we can't go pouring over their financial records. But it's a giant. I mean, they own all these Italian design brands. Haworth is a giant in and of itself. I feel like they're the one furniture conglomerate that's kind of worked out. You know, so much of the coverage about, you know, Floss, B and B Italia Group that roll up is that, you know, they want to sell it off into parts. And, you know, Miller Knoll has their problems, but Hayworth is just kind of chugging along and, you know, buying up John Edelman's. What's your kind of read on the macro deal here?
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Well, I think it's really interesting because on the one hand, sure, chugging right along. But you can certainly imagine that one of the challenges for the company and it. And it sounds as if John has outlined part of his initial challenge is to get all of these brands that you rattled off to work together more seamlessly. And by more seamlessly, I mean work together at all in any way. And so I think that's not a
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C
John Edelman quote, that's a Dennis Scully special.
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But yes, but I mean, I think, listen, we all know that that's part of the challenge. All of these companies are focused on their own specific strengths and their selling points. And I think John's job is going to be to come in and get more of a universal voice around all of that and what they can do. I think John and John is just the man to do it, because I think John and John's son is a fantastic basketball player. And I see Jon as sort of a great coach that gets brought in, gets his whistle on, and he like, all right, let's huddle up Italian brands here. Here's how we're going to go after designers going forward, because that's a big thing. I see this partially as a message that Hayworth has decided they need to go after more trade business with all these brands. That's a huge opportunity for them. And John Edelman has a whole career built on going after the trade, from his family's Edelman leather business to buying DWR and building that off and selling it to Herman Miller, and then spending time at Herman Miller and getting DWR and everything else else focused on the trade. So, I mean, there's no better guy to come in and motivate your team to go after the trade.
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And frankly, I think if you're any
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of those competitors, you're probably pretty worried that John Edelman is now in charge of all these big brands.
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Yeah, I mean, this is not only he's putting his uniform back on him, he's switching jerseys. He's kind of on the other team now. And Heller is mostly sold through dwr, and now DWR is with the other big furniture conglomerate. So there's all kinds of nerdy drama here. Implicit. I'm sure John will downplay that, but. But it's fun to think about. Yeah. I don't know. The opportunity is there. I think one of the kind of prevailing narratives of the industry that so many European luxury brands or luxury furniture brands talk about is like, well, why is RH the perceived luxury brand in the U.S. we have all this heritage, we have all this manufacturing, but then they kind of come here and they kind of go at the market in a very scattered way, and they don't know exactly how to work with the trade. I'm generalizing here. That's not true of all of these brands, but it's certainly. You hear that over and over again. And I think that there's an opportunity to, like you said, huddle up and figure out how to put together a serious offering, because these are great companies and they have a lot to offer, and I think John knows that. And I think there's a. I don't know if there's A white space. But there's room for these companies to be more in the US that they are. And I think that they're very smart to hire one of a very small group of people who probably have the authority, energy and passion and know how to pull it all together and the
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contacts and the connections. And John Edelman is so fantastic at maintaining relationships and people he's known for decades. And he's just involved in the industry.
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He's producing this podcast right now. He's twiddling the knobs. We've praised him up and down, so hopefully.
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No, I mean, I just. This is so. I mean, this, to me, this is a great move. And I think that, again, other brands are probably gonna be kicking themselves that they didn't think, why don't we just scoop up Hel and get John and get Andrew McPhee as well? So, I mean, they get the whole team there. And I think it's a win win. As John texted to me when I heard about the news, he said, yeah, it's a win win, and I think it is. So I look forward to talking to him about it and hearing more. In the meantime, Fred, we've got to move on and talk about AI.
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We gotta do it AI the new. The new tariffs, the thing we talk about every week that our listeners are groaning about. Well, anyway, William Sonoma has struck a deal with OpenAI to be part of a pilot program placing ads along conversations with ChatGPT. Have you seen any William Sonoma ads in your daily affirmations with ChatGPT, Dennis?
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You know, I haven't been served up some Le Creuset or a wonderful array of cooking utensils or other things, but I think it's coming, Fred. No question.
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C
Yeah. So, I mean, just to sort of break this down a little bit, you know, as anyone who's ever used used ChatGPT knows, it's a conversation with a chatbot. And for a long time, I think the company was saying, we're not going to do ads. The CEO Sam Altman was saying, ads are last resort. Well, here we are at that last resort, and they are introducing ads into the platform. They're on the free tier of ChatGPT. And so I think the idea is that as you're having a conversation, they pop up, ideally an unobtrusive way. I think it is a little bit controversial, frankly, because partially because of the history around ads and social media, Facebook famously said they weren't going to do ads, and then now their whole business is ads. I think having Advertisements creates an incentive for them to steer people to their advertisers. And I think because users have very intimate conversations with ChatGPT and in some ways consider the chatbot a friend and share all kinds of sensitive information, there's a lot of concern that you'd be saying, I'm having this problem in my marriage. And then you'll see an ad that's like, like here's this Le Creuset. Maybe your wife would like that. There's certainly a danger and serious people feel very seriously about that. So I do think there's that element of this story. But on some level, what this really is about to me is just how much big companies are betting that Google Search is big, but AI search is the future.
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I agree. And we refer to all of the big tech stocks today as hyperscalers because they are throwing so much money into scaling up their businesses to be able to deliver AI and the data towers and the chips and all the massive build out that is required because they are all betting that this is absolutely the future and we're seeing it evolve and emerge so quickly and companies are being upended by the technology already. So I think as much as many in our audience would love to bury their head, head in the sand about all of it, and I certainly could sense palpable AI reluctance when I, when I put a poll out into the field about how they're working on it and making themselves more discoverable, it's clear there's a lot of dread around this and certainly discomfort and fear. And it even came up in my conversation with Lee Meyer. To your point, AI has clearly replaced tariffs as the thing we're all having anxiety over in the industry. But I do think it's here and we need to figure out how to benefit from it if in fact it is going to be a tool that people will be using.
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C
Well, I mean, that's the thing. I think a lot of the big scary stuff about AI is really imagining it coming in and replacing people's jobs. And I think that's maybe a different conversation. I think people using it for a better version of search is a little less disruptive. And I think that this deal that Williams Sonoma signed is a sign of that. I also think OpenAI also has other deals with Walmart, Walmart and Etsy and Shopify. Sure, IKEA is in there, ikea's in there. Ashley Furniture has to deal with Perplexity, which is a sort of similar thing to ChatGPT. So there's a lot of deals like this. And I do think that what's kind of interesting about it is that like, you know, SEO is maybe not the first topic and when we talk about the design industry, but there are a lot of designers out there who have kind of, I don't know if they've built their career around this, but their career has benefited immensely from simply being the first person that comes up when you Google Interior designer Chicago or Interior designer Arizona. And I think that people have tried to optimize themselves around that kind of search for a long time now. And I think the reality is that people now are moving on to see that the next thing is called aeo or at least it's called that for now. Who knows what it'll be called next week, but answer engine optimization. I don't know if this has really trickled down to the individual designer level, but when I talk to companies likely and other people in the world, they're all thinking like, how do we show up first? When you ask ChatGPT, like what credenza should I buy? That is a top of mind consideration for a lot of people running companies in our industry. Do you hear that as well?
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A
Absolutely. I mean, all the companies that I hear have whole teams that are working night and day to try and understand where all of this is going and how they're going to show up. And I think that designers certainly are going to be hearing more about this. I heard from Lauren Haskett Design, who when I put a poll up on Social and she said that she had her, her first client who on the intake form said that they not only heard about her from Google, but they heard about her from ChatGPT.
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C
Yeah, it's not a totally uncommon thing at all anymore. I've written articles about it. I feel like I could just keep hearing it week by week. A new, a new story along those lines pops up.
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B
Yeah. No, no, no.
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So I mean this is definitely something that everyone is focused on and again it's, it's happening so quickly and the whole conversation around agentic AI and what it's going to be able to do for people, it's going to be transformative and very soon. And so these brands need to show up and I think the designers are going to need to show up as well.
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C
Yeah. And here would be the great thing if we could tell you, here's what you need to do in order to show up first in ChatGPT. But maybe we'll try and find somebody who's a credible non snake oil salesman of aeo advice and get them on the show because I think it's, it's a little murky right now and hopefully there'll be a playbook that emerges. But you know, as is often the case with new technology, it's a little, it's a little murky and we don't know. But we'll get back to you on that one.
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A
In the meantime, we're going to talk about home security. This week the Wall Street Journal reported on a new trend among the uber affluent.
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B
Military grade security.
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According to the article, safe rooms, biometric access controls and laser powered perimeter defenses are now mainstream in luxury homes. Scary though that may be.
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B
Fred?
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C
Yes, visual comfort makes an excellent biometric access control. Yeah, I mean this was an interesting article in the Wall Street Journal and I think we probably wanted to talk about it because. Oh, aren't these kinds of security measures kind of interesting and funny? And then you read the article, it's a little less funny after you go through it when you hear about all the violent crimes and all of that and, and the breakdown of society and everything. But it is a real thing. In the article, the journalist pointed out that 45% of luxury homes sold in 2025. The listing includes a reference to privacy or security which is much more than it was even in 2024. So clearly for the ultra wealthy this is a top of mind concern. And some of these things that they talked about in that article are just mild like casino grade cameras, whatever that is. And someone spent a million dollars on bullet resistant smart glass. And there's even kind of some occasionally like a design component. This one guy built a home, I think it was in the southwest somewhere where it was, there's a fireplace which, which has like a quartzite surround and it turns red if the alarm goes up. It's, it's almost like, I'd say it's like James Bondian kind of funny, but it really is kind of insane.
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A
This is both very real and again much like the conversation we were just having, this isn't going away either. And the article, this article and others about this subject have made it very clear this is a very fast growing category around home that there are just so many issues to be considered and clearly so many designers at the very high end are already having these conversations and there are whole security teams and consultants that are brought in and key decisions have to be made about the timing issues for architecture and design to happen. Often the security related matters have to happen first and all sorts of additional non disclosure agreements about what you know about the security layout of the spaces have to be signed as well. A whole other layer in all of this.
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C
Yeah, I mean, I think like, you know, as if there wasn't enough stuff that was taking away from the design budget, you know.
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Exactly. That's where my mind went.
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C
Yeah. It's like we have to install like a support beam so we can't buy. Buy drawer pulls now. It's like we need a million dollars on bulletproof smart glass so we can't buy pillows. So I don't know, that's kind of like a silly take on it. But I do think it's, as you said, this is happening more and more and this is kind of like to tie it into. Another thing I've noticed more recently is that I do think designers are having a harder time getting their clients to allow photos to be taken. And I think it's part of this sort of. It's a couple things. It's the fact that social media makes it that everybody has access to every image at all time everywhere. And I think that clients are understandably a little bit nervous about that. And then there also is this sort of heightened sense of, I'm going to say it, like violence in America. And there have been these very high profile violent crimes recently that I think make the uber affluent feel like I'm next or the country's at war with itself. And I don't think that's necessarily true, but I understand that that vibe is out there and it's something I wish we didn't have to talk about or think about. But I think that kind of security concern being paramount for more and more people is something that designers have to keep in mind whether whether it's a good thing or not.
- [29:18]
A
I agree. And I think that there is, there's a real mood in the, in the country right now. And we talked recently about showing off your affluence. And when we talk to a lot of designers, they say, not my clients, my clients aren't so. Aren't so eager to show off their affluence. And I think your point about photography and all of that, more and more, I hear less and less is right. So I think designers are having a hard time about that. And I do think a lot of designers are making decisions about do I take this project where they're going to let me photograph, but it's not as nice a project as this one where they're not going to let me photograph. It's interesting, but I think in a time where we see designers being forced to get in front of the camera a lot more. Their clients seem less eager to get
- [30:07]
C
in front of the camera.
- [30:09]
B
So.
- [30:10]
A
And the security is, is, is a big part of it. And, and honestly, you read these articles and you, you understand it.
- [30:16]
C
Yeah, no, I know. Sadly.
- [30:17]
A
Yeah, exactly. Sadly. So again, another issue that I think we're going to be coming back to in the future, but suddenly, not my favorite subject. All right, that's it for the news. But there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including advice from business coach Gail Dobie on selling a design firm
- [30:34]
B
and a profile of floral artist Kyle Barrett. But first, a quick break. At the Huntington in California, unfinished artwork by William Morris, J.H. durrell and other original creatives behind Morris Co. Have been uncovered. Now, these historic sketches, left incomplete for more than a century, have been carefully finished by the Morris Co. Design studio and transformed into an extraordinary new body of work. It's a brand new chapter in a legacy that spans more than 160 years.
- [31:12]
A
Discover the brand new wallpaper and fabric
- [31:14]
B
designs within the collection on wmorrisandco.com this
- [31:21]
A
winter, Laloy debuted beautiful new rug and
- [31:23]
B
pillow collections that are grounded in rich
- [31:26]
A
colors, natural materials and innovative crafts.
- [31:30]
B
Their expansive breadth of product includes new must see collaborations with designers Jeremiah Brent and Leanne Ford. See it all@loyrugs.com that's l o l o I rugs.com and follow laloy Rugs on Instagram and Tick Tock for the latest news and collaborations from laloy. And now back to the show.
- [31:56]
A
Show. And we're back. I'm joined now by returning guest, the CEO of Havenly, Lee Mayer. Lee, always great to have you on the show.
- [32:11]
D
It's great to be here.
- [32:13]
A
I'm delighted. Let's remind everyone what Havenly is and the whole stable of brands that Havenly has become over the years and check chat a little bit about where all that stands in your mind.
- [32:30]
B
Yeah.
- [32:31]
D
So Havenly, as you know, started out as an online interior design service. So pretty, pretty straightforward, pretty basic. More than a decade ago.
- [32:38]
A
Yes.
- [32:39]
D
And along the way, we started to look at these beloved brands that were in the marketplace and started to think about how we partner with them. In many cases, these brands had come into either financial difficulties or felt like it was unsustainable to kind of continue to exist, exist in a standalone capacity. And so we ended up either buying them or buying the assets of the brands and kind of trying to bring them back to life underneath new leadership. Currently, our Portfolio is Havenly, as well as gosh, Interior, divine borough citizenry, St. Frank and the inside.
- [33:17]
A
That's right.
- [33:18]
D
And of course, our newest. Our newest. To join the family of the expert.
- [33:21]
A
Duh, duh, duh. The expert. Exactly. Cue the music and lots of fanfare. And there are even more designers watching this, I feel, than even some of the earlier acquisitions and the conversations that we've had. So I want to get into that aspect of it. But first tell people what the expert is for those who might not be familiar.
- [33:44]
D
So the expert actually is an incredible way to get access to the nation's best interior designers. So it's its ability to sort of go online, book a consultation with folks like Jake Arnold, Leanne Ford, and really get to pick their brain in a lot of ways. And I think over the years what the experts done beyond the consultations, which is sort of what they were known for, at least to the consumer, is really build up a trade program that gave trade access to sourcing from other beloved trade brands and in the process has developed a lot of interesting tooling and sourcing tooling and the ability to sort of manage both procurement and sourcing for those designers. So this business couldn't have been started by us. Right. It had to be started by someone like Jake, who is, who is wonderful and is now a havenly shareholder. And you know, I think what though kept people continue to use the platform is the fact that it was, I think, a mutually beneficial thing for the experts. And we're, by the way, they've done a very good job of keeping the folks that are available for consult very tight. We're going to continue that, that this isn't like a. We didn't buy this for, for revenue reasons. It was much more of a strategic sort of asset for us. Although they have grown their revenue substantially, I think the part that we think is so magical that they have developed is that like, oh gosh, these amazing designers get extra income. They get this ability to sort of help people that they normally wouldn't be able to help. And folks on the other side get access to a level of talent that they wouldn't be able to get necessarily in their hometowns or with their budgets. And I think it's just like a really nice, nice sort of complete and distinct thing that exists in the market. And I think like one of the things that we're very cautious of, we want to make sure we preserve that component. There is no desire to make the consultation side any bigger. In fact, if anything, we'd like to make it easier for the designers in particular. See if we could bring a little bit more structure and process and customer support to the process so they're doing even, even more of what they love to do and less of the other stuff.
- [35:57]
A
And you mentioned that part of the appeal was more strategic for you versus the hope of some giant revenue growth from this. So tell me what the appeal was
- [36:10]
B
for you from the strategic side.
- [36:12]
D
Yeah, it's so funny because I think about this. We went, me and my chief of staff sort of run acquisitions, or at least run the front part of acquisitions together, which is like, you take the meeting with the CEO or the investor and you sort of figure out, like, is it something we're going to pursue or is it just something to file away for us? And we went into that meeting and I was sort of like, yeah, I don't know, I don't know what we do with it. Like, you know, we don't want to ruin it. And like, and then we went into that meeting and we met Leanne and I think her vision for what the expert could become without changing what the magical component of the expert is. So, so her vision was never like, oh, let's just bring in tons more experts and a lot more consultation revenue. Her vision was like, hey, like, this is an interesting asset to have really high end designers and high end clients really love what you do. But we're not going to scale that component because it kind of gets in the way of what's special about the expert. Instead, let's think about how we can take our marketplace, our tooling, and really try and grow revenue by serving the trade, by serving these clients and customers that we love. And I just like love that mission. And we realized that, like, we have a lot of technology that we've built that is only getting used in our sort of walled garden. And the trade continues to be a more and more impactful part of our overall brand strategy. And like, gosh, wouldn't it be great to try and figure out if we can bring modern tools to, like, this very, very important client and customer segment that we have?
- [37:42]
A
Was your sense that the reason they were even having this meeting with you was because they knew that in order to really scale this, they just needed a meaningful partner or what was really
- [37:55]
B
at play for them, do you think?
- [37:57]
D
Yeah, I think it's. I mean, we've talked. You and I have talked about this before. They're kind of like, in this world of home and interior design, there are kind of like a couple different flavors of companies and there's, like, companies that are truly distressed, and then there are companies that are like, like, hey, it'd be nice if we found a partner. And then there's companies that are like, we're not for sale. But that's like, you know, increasingly fewer, I think, these days, just because of, I think, what the last four or five years have borne for this industry. So, actually, Leanne, interestingly, one of their investors that I think is a board is on their board. Haley Barna was a classman of mine in physical. And as the World Turns, she reached out and said, hey, like, you know, they're kind of okay, but, like, you know, we're thinking we've had an offer. You know, I think there was a. There was another offer for a sale. And, you know, she was like, would you want to take a look? You know, no pressure. I think you. I think you'd likely in anyway, so you might as well.
- [38:59]
A
Right?
- [38:59]
D
And so that's kind of the. I think, the impetus as you got to know each other. I think there were two things. The first is, is because they had to sort of purposefully keep the consultation business small. They really wanted to scale, but to scale, they really need to scale. Kind of like their partnerships, their technology, their capabilities, their ops. And that's just hard to do. It's hard to do. It's a lot of work, and frankly, it's stuff that we had already done. Like, we have a full logistics team, we have a lot of technology, we have a lot of process set up. So I think it's just easier when you look at their strategic focus to have a partner behind them. I think in general, though, to be a smaller business right now is just harder. It's like, you know, just the overhead of, like, all of the things you need to do to keep the lights on as a business is a lot when you aren't quite at a certain level of scale. And so in general, we're finding, and this is not necessarily just the expert, but overall, if you're. If you haven't reached, like, the $100 million mark or even if you have, like, there's a lot of, like, interest in combining forces with someone who's either hasn't developed or. Or, you know, someone else just to, like, get that level of scale to make it sort of worth it.
- [40:13]
A
The funny thing about announcing yet another deal with Lee Mayer and Havenly, so there's one group that says, how much money does this woman have? How can they possibly. Right. As if you're just sitting on this mountain of money just waiting for the next acquisition. And I don't get the sense from you that that's quite the case at all.
- [40:36]
D
No, sadly. Very sadly for us.
- [40:38]
C
Right.
- [40:39]
A
So I mean, it becomes therefore much more of, I assume rather than some giant buyout, it becomes a strategic acquisition of sorts. Right. That requires everyone to sort of buy into this longer term vision, I'm assuming.
- [40:57]
D
I think for the most part sometimes we do do a little bit of cash in our deals. It depends on the deal. But yeah, for the most part, you have some piece of upside tied to our upside. And sometimes, I'll be candid and I can't be specific to the expert specifically, but in general, oftentimes venture backed companies prefer that because market valuations are so compressed right now that if you sold for cash, you would never recoup your investment.
- [41:22]
C
Investment.
- [41:23]
D
But there's a chance that, like if you can sort of wait it out with us, that we'd sell at a more appealing sort of time in the market and so you could actually recoup and get more money back and, you know, really see the upside. And so that's a lot of. When we do these deals, you know, I'm selling the vision of Havenly as well, because unfortunately, I don't come with like a bajillion dollars attached to me.
- [41:47]
A
I don't have a bunch of money for you. But what I do have is a brilliant vision of the future. You're gonna love it. Please come be part of it.
- [41:54]
D
Yes, please be a part of it. Yeah, it's always, it's. But it is interesting. I think if you, if you know the space, it's, you know, there aren't a lot of deals getting done for cash for that reason.
- [42:05]
B
Right. And so speak to what you just addressed, which is this market value compression
- [42:15]
A
that the entire industry is dealing with at the moment. And first explain that for listeners and then just let's talk about.
- [42:22]
C
About it.
- [42:23]
D
Yeah, I mean, I think if you think about this space in 2021. Right.
- [42:28]
A
The good old days.
- [42:30]
D
Good old days. Oh, had we known. Yeah. If you think about it and, and in particular in private markets. But you can also see it if you trace public markets. You know, what you saw was a really kind of frothy perspective on home, driven by, you know, what we now know is Covid pull forward and driven by sort of low interest rates and, you know, the. All of moving and taking advantage of that. I think, you know, one of the things that I think is sort of interesting also in the private Markets is you just had a lot of private capital sloshing around and that, that was on all corners of the world, but definitely in home and just broadly what I'd call direct to consumer E commerce, there was a lot of dollars floating around. And so you'd see these people raise all of this money at like really, really high valuations that were largely tied to sort of like massive run ups and growth. Growth that were unsustainable. Unsustainable because consumer demand was pulled forward and it didn't sort of persist in the same way as interest rates came back up. But also unsustainable because oftentimes people were making decisions in favor of growth without an eye towards profitability, which I like to say, I guess I'm kind of old fashioned, but at some point as a business you should probably think about making money. And a lot of these businesses were set up, up structurally to not make money because of the way that like sort of private dollars were chasing revenue growth specifically in this space. And so I think, you know, fundamentally you saw two things happen. You saw sort of demand drop and then you saw a lot of private investors exiting the space. And again, you know, you could see it a little bit in the public markets, although the public markets honestly have been a little bit more friendly to home than the private markets have been. Private markets, like you're kind of illiquid right now. Like I don't, you know, you're, there's no funding rounds happening, there's no, you know, it's just kind of like a, a stagnant place to be because people for the most part have, you know, over the last few years exited out of home and direct to consumer e commerce and consumer categories in general in favor of what look like, like, kind of like Enterprise SaaS and now AI. And so I think fundamentally when you know, there's unfortunately no demand for your, your equity, your, your valuations start to get really compressed, depressed. And so if you were to go out and sell now, you know, the valuation you get is certainly far lower than it ever was if you could get there anyway. And so it becomes like for your investors and yourself, you know, it becomes a little bit of this, okay, I could sit in it and like hope that things come back and we get another 20, 21, like boom. But that feels like more of the anomaly now that we're getting sort of further away from it. And so a lot of folks are like, all right, well let's, let's partner together and like build something big and great together. Other instead of me, like, you know, holding onto this for the next five years and hoping for another 21, 2021 style boom. Now this is changing. I will say if you've been following public markets now, that I guess AI can rebuild enterprise SaaS, maybe people, maybe we're starting to look good now. Like you can't replace a sofa with AI.
- [45:43]
A
You know, Sasmageddon. And the right. And the self and destroy mission that's been going on for software companies, it's been pretty bright, brutal.
- [45:52]
D
So it's, it has been. So, you know, maybe we're looking pretty good to y' all now. I don't know.
- [45:57]
A
Yeah, but it does. And we'll. Obviously we'll talk more about AI, but it's the other interesting part in where so much of the market has tried to go is, is to move higher and higher up the luxury mountain, as Gary Friedman likes to say. And, and, and so many brands, even the big high point furniture brands, trying to focus on how do we get more designers, how do we get more trade. This expert acquisition seems like a natural sort of step up for you to be speaking more to that trade customer. And whether you're imagining bringing interior defined and St. Frank and the Citizenry into the offerings that the designers would have for the expert, I assume that's a natural sort of synergy, right?
- [46:43]
D
Yeah, I mean, mean, we have historically had a pretty strong trade business in particular on Interior Defined just because of the custom nature of the product. But also St. Frank, to your point, and Citizenry have had sort of a strong trade program and we're continuing to expand a little bit there. I think this is like sort of, you know, we were talking to the expert on a commercial deal to bring St. Frank onto the platform. And so this is like sort of another, another manifestation of that. And I think that's really interesting to us. Trade in general for us has been our growth spot last year. So, you know, we grew on the consumer side, but nothing like how we grew on the trade side. The trade side has held up quite substantially well for us and it's been, you know, it's sort of a natural place to go.
- [47:25]
A
Exactly. And that seems across the board for the, for the industry. And so everyone's trying to think how do we get closer to that space. So before we talk more about that, let's, let's share. So the other anxiety that's going on, right, to the people that respond to the news is, oh, you know, what's this going to mean for all the designers that are on there. What changes are coming? Is it going to be some what, what changes do you imagine happening and what do you think people will feel or see initially and longer term?
- [48:00]
D
Yeah. So really nothing. I don't mean to be like a total letdown here, but. But we don't anticipate changing anything except for things that maybe you would choose to use over time as we develop. So we're looking at developing a lot of sourcing, tooling, a lot of procurement tooling. We're thinking about bringing our 3D rendering side over so you can have that available to you. None of that is forced, you do not have to use it. It's just a nice benefit. In most cases we offer that for free, so that won't change. I don't think there's anything that's going to change on the consult side or on the vendor side. So our hope is we don't completely destroy the value of the asset that we just bought, if that makes sense. So that's in our economic best interest.
- [48:47]
A
Exactly. And when you think about that and this longer term vision that you've sold to Jake Arnold and to Leigh Ann and everyone else who's coming on board with this, how do you imagine this growing and complementing? And the other question that everyone wants to know is, is what do you do with all these brands? Do they all come together in some way that makes sense? And tell me.
- [49:15]
D
Well, it's a great question. So on the designer side, actually one other kind of strategic thought since we brought up AI is I've been thinking a lot about the fact that AI can do some elements of design. But what it really highlights though is the specialness of the human designer. And I think this is really a step in that direction for us where we're like, these are human beings that are artists, they're like the best in the field and like figuring out how to create and have a brand that is so distinctly separate from AI and AI design and like AI Sloth and all that other stuff I think was really important to me in this world, in this market. And so as we think about what we're doing on the design side, I think it's like, how do we take the best parts of this industry and figure out, particularly now as you're starting to see more of a generational shift in the trade too, and bring them tools that our designers have used for years and have loved and really kind of enhance their ability to be sort of special in the world, be the artist in the world. I kind of hate the idea of AI taking over interior design. Honestly, sorry, ChatGPT. I want to embrace this community because I think it's like, there's a lot of anxiety around it and I feel like actually maybe the best thing to do is to invest in again, the humanness and the magic of like a specific designer and like the place AI or technology can come in is on the stuff that isn't special. But you're right, it's anyone's guess. And I can only imagine, I mean, frankly, like, you know, half our team that sits out there is anxious about AI. Like, our training team is like, are you guys going to automate accounting? And we're like, I don't know, maybe parts of it. I don't know. I think every company is undergoing showing this massive transformation of what it means to do knowledge work. But even things like sourcing, sourcing highly custom products just takes time. You're emailing back and forth and trying to figure out pricing and trying to figure out if it's doable. And I think just making it so that instead of it being six email touch points, making it so it's chatting into something and figuring it out and then adding it, just like any of us would if we were shopping for ourselves, adding it to some list that someone can then transact upon and then managing that order through all its phases. You know, that's like a lot of work that oftentimes interior designers don't want to do and their teams don't want to do. And so even something as simple as that is something that like, can reduce both the amount of time it takes, your kind of quality of service, but also just like, you know, isn't really fun work for anyone. It's not like people usually wake up and say procurement, like, that's what I want to do with my day to day. And so. So I think that's probably level one. Then we've got a whole vision around visualization and product search and sourcing and finding products. And that's kind of a lot of the stuff that I'm not sure everyone will like, but I think a lot of people will find, make themselves more efficient and again, serve the vision of their clients a little bit better. And then there's all sorts of project management. So that's anything from finances and invoicing and tracking and quoting and all of that fun stuff, which again can be made a lot easier with a much more modern tool. That's not phase one. That last part is in phase one. But there are elements of it that we'll start to develop. And again, if our trade clients want to use that, awesome. We're not forcing it down anyone's throat. It's just sort of, for now, a free service that we hope provides some value to our trade partners.
- [52:56]
A
The other interesting aspect of the expert and any of these tools that bring consumers in touch with designers, and in the past, we've talked about democratization of design as if it was just a financial thing, but more and more, I come to think that there's just a certain type of person who wants to work with a designer regardless of the money and all of that.
- [53:23]
B
Right.
- [53:24]
A
Because there are lots of different designers at lots of different levels, but you have to want or be willing to turn a certain part of that over to somebody else. Right. Which is a big part of it. I have relatives who have plenty of means, and yet I can't talk them into working with a designer, much to my deep regret.
- [53:42]
B
Right.
- [53:43]
A
And so it's not just that, but I do wonder, does this expand and create greater opportunity for more people to work with designers through the expert? All these other tools, Havenly, everything that you've been doing, does it bring more and more people into that space?
- [54:02]
D
I hope so. I mean, I think. Actually, I'll give you. So this is. This is data from the Havenly platform. So we've been doing a lot of research on. On people and their attitudes towards design versus DIY versus AI. And, like, so there are kind of a couple of things that are sort of interesting that I'll share with you. So the first is no one actually likes the idea that AI is doing, like, just, like, fundamentally, when you say, would you rather use ar? Would you rather use a designer? Almost every. And it's like, yeah, I'd rather use a designer or do it myself. But like, no, on AI, AI is bad. And then you, like, talk through some of the benefits that AI brings, and they're like, no, no, we want those benefits. And what we found is there's a component of people that say they want to do it themselves. And we're providing more and more DIY capabilities on Havenly, but also across our brands. And we're finding that in doing it themselves, what we do is we just prompt them. We say, like, hey, it feels like you might be stuck. Stuck. Would you like to use a designer? And so these are people that have actively chosen not to use a designer, not even an online one. And about 10 to 15% of the time, we find that they're upgrading to one. And this is Kind of, I think the point you were making, it's like actually sometimes people just need to like learn a little bit about design and like understand and like start to get into that space of doing things and then, you know, maybe they don't want the full thing, but they realize they do want expert guidance. That was not a pun, that was intended, but it is an applicable one. And I think that's sort of like an interesting thing with the expert. It's like, can we continue to expand access? And to your point, again, you know, the experts consult consultations are plenty spendy. You know, they're not, they're not as inexpensive as Havenly. So you know, you probably are sitting on quite a bit of disposable income. But like the accessibility isn't there. You don't know you need it. You don't know how much you need. And so this ability to sort of, of taste it I think is really interesting for people. And again can particularly as you see this sort of like generational shift in home buying and home furnishings hopefully bring this next generation a lot more sort of accessibility but also like of an understanding of what it can mean to work with a train designer.
- [56:12]
A
Does it feel like the future of all of this moves more and more on online? So we've been talking a lot about design centers and what role they will continue to play in the business and they're still important and they still seem such a huge part of how these to the trade brands show their product. And E commerce hasn't. It's become a big part of their sales, but it hasn't overtaken. Right. All of that in person and all of that and, and, and, and will it eventually?
- [56:47]
D
You know, I think sometimes you can get, when you talk about online versus offline versus retail, you can get pretty, it's easy to get really reductive. Like no, this is the, this is the trend that's going to shape the way. I think the reality is people are pretty complex and they want to interact in multiple ways. And we've noted, you know, we have a retail presence across our brands. We find them to be tremendously impactful. People really like them. We also so though transact most of our business online and it turns out like what I, you know, what I think most people want is at times they want to be able to go in particular in this category where things are so tactile and really require sort of a physicality. Like, you know, I think people do want to go in person and see things and they do sometimes want to meet people in person. And they do, they do want someone in their home. And, and, and oh, by the way, many of us are busy and are on the go and we need some way to like communicate and transact online too. And I think the folks that win in this space, I think are going to be people that understand that for this next generation there's a different balance. I don't know what that balance is, but, you know, millennials and younger might have more of a proclivity to do things online because that's how they mostly conduct business. But that doesn't obviate the need for in person design centers for designers coming to sort of like really understand the spaces. There's just like a piece of that that won't go away. And I think, you know, as you think about the expert, it's like, I do believe technology can interior designer's life a lot easier. Do I think it's for every interior designer? Probably not. But I think the reality is, what that means is like you can still do a lot of the things that you used to do the way you used to do them, while taking advantage of all the things that make your life easier. And again, it's sort of more of this hybrid approach. It's a. Yes and Right. It's like, oh, cool, there's technology and there's online and there's all sorts of things we could do and we can still have great experiences in person and in retail stores and with your design designer. And I think that's really like sort of where as a philosophy, I think all of our brands, like, it's not one or the other. This isn't like the death of anything. We're just trying to like really serve the customer where the customer is.
- [58:54]
A
Yeah. And, and you suggested that, that your plate is pretty full at the, at the moment. So I shouldn't, I shouldn't be expecting any, any other announcements for a little while or. I mean, but you never say, you never say, oh, no, no, no, I'm not going to be doing anything for a while. You always say, oh, well, you know, Dennis, it could be something. I mean, who knows which is it?
- [59:14]
D
Lee, I think here is just like the candid problem about Haven Li is we're like kind of big now. And one of the challenges that I like, I'm pretty open about talking about is like public markets are more favorable to companies like ours and private markets, unless private markets suddenly start to like, you know, come back into this.
- [59:33]
A
Right.
- [59:33]
D
And I think one of the things that we continue to think about is like, we're. We're big, so it's like, hard to get acquired. Like, no one seems to want to buy us.
- [59:40]
A
Are you announcing your IPO here on the show? This is great.
- [59:45]
D
I can't go public because I'm not big enough to go public. So there's a little bit of this. Like, if something great comes along, we'll always take a look at it. But the bar has gotten a lot higher for us too.
- [59:56]
B
Right.
- [59:57]
D
Like, it's like we're busy. There's a lot of stuff we need to figure out. We're like, you know, combining these kind of massive operations. And so I really love to see you, but.
- [60:09]
A
Well, I mean, that's the thing. I mean, I don't want you to say, oh, I'm going away, I'm not doing any more deals, and that I don't get to see you for a year. But I think that's an interesting point, though, about having to get to a certain scale to be appealing in the public markets and having it all make sense. And we've seen some companies that came public perhaps prematurely or, you know, just. Just didn't work out for. For different reasons. And, and as you say, you are Havenly itself is getting. Getting pretty big with. With all of this. I mean, do. Do Wall street types call you and say, what do you. What do you think?
- [60:47]
D
Yes, but I think Wall street types call anyone who's, like, somewhat active on the market. Not. Yeah, sorry. Not to be insensitive to my Wall street friends, but you do, do they do. Yeah, yeah. You know, we. We've been following a lot of what's been going on in sort of analogous spaces. There isn't a, you know, in our space, we've seen some of the more subscale players struggle a little in the public markets, to your point. So we know. We know we don't want to do that, but, you know, we always have like, a full stable of bankers, like, thinking about deals and trying to bring us interesting things. And we're grateful for them before. Course, even more grateful if they take us out to a really nice dinner. But pro tip, but, you know, it hasn't really been a serious point of consideration, but at some point, I'm guessing I have investors too.
- [61:37]
A
Sure.
- [61:37]
D
Some point. My. My guess is they'd like some money back, I would think. I don't. I don't. I don't.
- [61:43]
A
It's been a long time.
- [61:44]
D
It's been a long time.
- [61:46]
A
Yeah.
- [61:46]
D
We raised our first round of capital in 2015. So it's been. It's been over a decade for some of those folks. So, you know, I have to. I wouldn't be a good steward of. Of capital if I. If I weren't thinking about it. And that is something you know, we kind of continually, I would say, have in the back of our minds, like, where. Where do we need to be from a scale perspective to consider an ipo? What does that look like? Is it us alone? Should we fold into someone else? Like, how are we. How are we going to do that? And, you know, it's. It's been noted that apart from us, it doesn't seem like there are a lot of buyers in the space. So I was joking with an early investor where I was like, I thought I'd get acquired by now, because he was like, so when are you gonna. And I'm like, I thought I'd get acquired by now, but, like, I haven't. So I just started doing the acquiring. I guess, you know, this wasn't like, the. The original intent, but it is, you know, it's been a fun journey. So we'll. We'll see where we take it. Who knows?
- [62:39]
A
Okay. All right, well, stay tuned, and we'll see what happens first. You getting acquired or you going public? What?
- [62:48]
D
Yes.
- [62:49]
A
What can we put on the prediction markets for that? We'll have to set up.
- [62:52]
C
Right.
- [62:52]
A
We'll have to set up some betting there. But it does as you say, you've got investors that have been waiting around for a long time. So the clock is ticking.
- [63:02]
D
Yeah, I suppose so. No pressure, though.
- [63:05]
A
No, no. Well, Lee, it's always a pleasure, and I appreciate you making the time. And congratulations on another acquisition.
- [63:16]
D
Thank you. Thank you so much. It's good to see you.
- [63:22]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Tread. What caught your eye?
- [63:30]
C
Quinn's caught my eye. Now, if you remember, last year, I said, they're one of my companies to watch because they are really investing in home and hiring a lot of home people. Well, guess what? They hired somebody else ahead of time. Narrative, which I really had a brand, but head of narrative, a chief. Chief narrative officer Dakota Kate Isaacs. And, you know, there was a great business of fashion article about how, you know, they, you know, are hiring this person is sort of like as the headline to deepen her connect. You know, Quinton's connection with consumers, but also minimize its reputation as a purveyor of dupes. So I think she definitely has her work cut out for her. But I think it's, you know, another, another Quinn's hire that sort of speaks to sort of the future of what that company is doing. And certainly if we can get Dakota for the podcast, I'd love to hear what a head of narrative does. Another quick item is we got a great email from Grayson Glenn Ashton of a very cool lampshade company called Sorella Glenn. I met them at Design Social, so really nice to hear from them. But I had been complaining last week about how induction cooking makes it harder to make my scrambled eggs. And Grayson has a lot of. You have to be patient, Fred. Here's how you do it. Gave me a very good, you know, breakdown on getting good eggs out of an induction, you know, induction oven. So I loved, I loved hearing that. And there's hope, there's hope for me yet.
- [64:42]
A
Well, and that was such a lovely note and I was so glad that she sent that. And I'm sorry that she's having to deal with her flat bottom stainless steel sink.
- [64:49]
C
That's, that's another one. We can do a whole podcast on. Flat bottom stainless steel sinks.
- [64:52]
A
Indeed.
- [64:53]
C
What caught your eye this week, Dennis?
- [64:54]
A
Well, a couple of things caught my eye, Fred. You know, you were early on to calling out that a lot of people were going to be writing some interesting substacks in the future.
- [65:02]
C
And I did invent Substack.
- [65:04]
A
Yes, exactly. You are the father of substack. And interestingly, one of the things that caught my eye was designer Gil Malott, who has a substack called Design Alchemy, has written a piece with a pretty bold headline saying When Shelter Magazines had a Spine. And it's a pretty scathing piece about punches pulled, really. It's looking back at the 1980s and perhaps the glory days of Architectural Digest. Paige Rents is quoted in there and some other ad editors as well. But really it was talking about everything from Paige's feelings about not using a stylist on the photo shoots, more nighttime photography, and a lot of other issues, including when we weren't all so focused on celebrities and sort of how we position luxury. It's a thought provoking piece and I saw that he was getting a lot of response. I'll bet he's getting a lot of private DMs as well on the subject.
- [66:03]
C
Yeah, no fun style. And I love the hot takes on Substack. I think it's definitely keep them coming
- [66:08]
A
the other thing that caught my eye, just before we came on air, the Federal Reserve released the their minutes of the last Fed meeting. And in those minutes, it became pretty clear that not everyone is on board with a whole bunch of rate cuts in the near future. In fact, if anything, a surprising number of people were talking about rate hikes in the future because we, we mustn't forget that the Fed's target for inflation is actually 2%. And it's been well over 60 months since we've actually had 2% inflation. So I think a lot of people internally are saying, are we sure we should continue cutting rates? So we'll see. We'll see what that means for the future. But everyone who thought that rates were coming down dramatically in the near future, I'd say read those minutes and perhaps think twice.
- [66:58]
C
What about the end of cold weather being the spark, Dennis? I thought that was it.
- [67:05]
A
You know, apparently that didn't come up in the Fed meeting, but shock. But look for that in the next one. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with
- [67:16]
B
the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if
- [67:22]
A
you want to get in touch with
- [67:23]
B
the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode
- [67:28]
A
was produced by Fred Nicolaus and Caroline
- [67:30]
B
Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda.
- [67:33]
A
I'm Dennis Scully.
- [67:34]
B
Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.