← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Why Veranda is bringing back nighttime photography. Plus: Dupe.com and Williams-Sonoma settle their lawsuit
01:11:11
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world. Later, editor Steele Marcoux and brand consultant Sean Yashar join the show to talk about the disappearance of nighttime design photography—and why Veranda is bringing it back.
Loading summary
Transcript160 lines
- [00:07]
A
This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully and welcome to the Thursday show. Later on, I'll be speaking with Veranda editor Steel Marcoux and brand consultant Shania Shahr about the disappearance of nighttime photography. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including an update on Duke.com, williams Sonoma earnings and a new platform for AI generated home goods. To do all that, I'm joined by business of Homes executive editor Fred Nikolaus. Hi, Fred.
- [00:36]
B
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:38]
A
Hanging in there.
- [00:39]
B
How about you? I'm doing all right. We both have colds, so we both are in danger of losing our voices and we both have that kind of low gravitas that makes the design industry a very serious place.
- [00:52]
A
It's gonna be a very serious show.
- [00:55]
B
Exactly. But quickly, let's look back on Monday's episode. A conversation with Emily Arthur and Sharon Dranko of Isla Porter. Really interesting kitchen cabinetry startup. They've been on my radar ever since they got off the ground, but it was great to sort of hear their story from in their own words. What'd you think?
- [01:10]
A
I agree. It was great to finally have them on the show. I've been eager to speak with them and a couple of West Elm alum. We're going to be talking about Williams Sonoma later in the show. Interesting to hear about their early careers and they latched on to some of the efficiencies that AI might offer in the kitchen cabinet specifying side of the business and later decided that maybe that wasn't what they wanted to lead with artificial intelligence. So it was interesting to hear how that evolved. And that very smart hire that they made of Samantha Coelho, former BOH staffer, seemed to be instrumental in their success. So good for them. People should definitely hire former BoH staffers if they can, but not currently.
- [01:53]
B
Their BoH staffers don't poach our people is the main takeaway.
- [01:57]
A
Exactly.
- [01:59]
B
Yeah, it was great. The AI thing was so interesting because when ILO Porter launched, a lot of the sort of buzz around the company was this is an AI power kitchen cabinetry company and they do use AI to do parts of the schematics for their kitchen cabinetry. But I think what they realized over the course of the past year is that really people connect with the actual design, the beauty of the product and they have really great marketing. So it's maybe no surprise there, but I feel like that's something that comes up again and again. It's like you have a company that has some sort of material innovation or some sustainability message or technology thing, and that's what they launch with. And then over time they're like, but seriously, this stuff is beautiful because I think that's really what resonates in the industry. People want it to be beautiful first and then something else secondarily. And I think that's a lesson they picked up pretty quickly. But cool company.
- [02:43]
A
Yeah, an interesting company and as they suggested, profitability might be coming for them in 2026. So we wish them well on that journey and hopefully that happens for them. We'll check in with them in 2026. In the meantime, we'll take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Eicholts, the European luxury designer brand with globally inspired appeal. Discover their whole home offerings across furniture, lighting, decorative accessories and outdoor icolds makes it easy to create timeless interiors with in stock pieces shipping in just one to two weeks from its North Carolina warehouse, plus a customizable upholstery program delivering bespoke pieces in just four to six weeks anywhere in the U.S. explore new introductions, unlock competitive trade benefits and find your local store@icolts.com that's E I C H-O-L-T Z.com this podcast is sponsored by Renewal by Andersen. Hey designers, here's a quick tip before we dive in. If you're juggling client projects that include replacing windows and doors, you need to know about Renewal by Andersen's Interior Designer loyalty program. It's a game changer. They take care of the window and door replacement side so you don't have to. You'll get trade discounts, exclusive rewards, and a team that truly knows what they're doing. Enjoy having a trusted expert who makes your projects run smoother. Apply today at renewalbyandersondesigner.com Terms and conditions apply. And we're back. First up, Fred, an oldie but a goodie.
- [04:31]
B
Dupe.com they're back more than a year after Williams Sonoma sued dupe.com, the two have come to a settlement. Coincidentally or not, dupe.com also just launched an app lot going on with dupe.com there. Did you miss them, Dennis?
- [04:47]
A
Well, I missed talking about them because it seemed to get people all worked up on both sides of the aisle there. What what do we make of this settlement and what are the details?
- [04:59]
B
Yeah, well, maybe let's rewind a little bit and just sort of catch people up on what dupe.com is. It's a website and also now an app, of course, that allows you to take an existing product that you see either online or in the real world. You point a camera at it or hit a few buttons, and dupe.com gives you a list of lookalike products. And they promise a cheaper price. But of course, you get prices up and down the food chain. So you like that product. From name your brand, go to dupe.com, you'll see a version that costs half as much is the promise of the company. Of course, this is beloved by consumers on the Internet and hated by everyone in our industry. So when it first debuted, there was a lot of kerfuffle around it. Indeed, there was this lawsuit that came out. Williamson, Elma sued dupe.com and the lawsuit was based around their marketing has always been this kind of viral, guerrilla e marketing thing where they get an influencer to go like, oh, my God, you guys, you cannot believe this secret. You are getting scammed by Williams Sonoma. Look at this furniture. I got it for half the price. Obviously, Williams Sonoma did not like the implication that it was scamming its customers. They did not like seeing their name all over advertising for a site called dupe.com, so they sued to try and shut it down. And here we are a year and change later, and both sides have settled.
- [06:14]
A
Also, this suggestion that, hey, guess what, a lot of this is just coming from the same Chinese factories that we can get it for you for a lot less. They seem to, as we talked about on previous shows, they seem to really want to be fighting on the side of people who feel like they can't afford good furniture. And dupe.com was in your corner and was going to help you get through the challenging times we're all facing where things seem so expensive and affordability is the hot button issue of the day.
- [06:45]
B
I think your take on this is implied by the tone of your voice and what you just said. But, yes, that was part of the lawsuit. And, you know, it's. It's kind of a shame it didn't go to trial because obviously that allows nosy reporters like me to read a bunch of background emails and everything that come out in discovery. But maybe it's no surprise that this settled. When a lawsuit settles, you don't often know how much money they settled for, who got what concession. I looked at dupe.com's marketing as of late, and I've noticed that they don't appear to be talking about Williams Sonoma brands as much anymore. They have the same technique of, oh, look at this crazy deal I got. But more often, it's not a Sonoma brand. They've been focusing a lot on Rove concepts for some reason, which is kind of interesting. So maybe they worked out a deal where some money changed hands and dupe.com said, sorry, William Sonoma, we're not going to do this anymore. Maybe Sonoma decided they just didn't want to pursue this lawsuit. But if anyone was waiting on William Sonoma to end the scourge of dupe.com with a big old lawsuit, it did not happen. And both parties are walking away here. It's interesting. I feel like over the course of doing this podcast with you, when we first started talking about dupes, there was sort of this question of, oh, are dupes becoming culturally acceptable? Do people think it's okay to use the word dupe? I would say that conversation is over. Day after day. You read articles like the New York Times that are just like, here's a great dupe. Can I get a dupe? Dupes are great. Dupes are good. I feel like whoever has been arguing that dupes should be taboo or we should look down our nose at dupes, I feel like that conversation almost feels like a settled matter and we have to move on to the battlefield for originality on a different front, because dupes appear to have won. I don't know if that's too pessimistic, but what do you think?
- [08:21]
A
I don't disagree with you. I feel as though vintage and secondhand doesn't seem to have as good PR representation as dupes. I feel like the people who say, oh, no, no, buy it, buy it at auction or find it at a, at a flea market, all of that. I don't feel that that's winning as much support as, no, just, just buy a cheap copy on, on Duke.com or Quints or somewhere else.
- [08:48]
B
Yeah, there's something just sort of terribly ironic about it because, you know, people are rightfully upset about the affordability crisis and how expensive home and how expensive everything is, but it just seems so bizarre to me that the solution to that is let's steal everyone's ip. I don't know, I don't want to get a soapbox about it, but I do think it's kind of too bad that it's become kind of part of the cultural zeitgeist that dupes are cool. And I wonder if that will have long term effects on the design industry that we can't even predict right now, because I Feel like it's a relatively.
- [09:19]
A
New thing, I do feel. And when you talk to industrial designers, and I've spoken to so many lighting designers who say, honestly, it's been forever. Thus there's always been knockoffs. They're just much more sophisticated tools today to find the knockoff. But I mean, people were always being knocked off. And even in the high end of the industry, if someone got a sense that a particular product was doing well, a very similar looking product would soon appear.
- [09:49]
B
You're not, you're not wrong.
- [09:50]
C
Yes.
- [09:50]
B
Yeah.
- [09:51]
A
And so I certainly think in the custom sofa business and Vladimir Kagan, may he rest in peace, I feel like there's an awful lot of serpent sofas out there in the world that are not actually his design. So, I mean, I think it exists on every level. It is really, I think, how we choose to talk about it and how we feel about it. But I don't love that it is as easy today as some of these tools make it for copies.
- [10:23]
B
Yeah. I don't know. It's one of the situations where you wonder, like, does the technology just make it so easy that it's a different thing than the knockoffs of yore, you know, But I don't know. Time will tell. Things swing back and forth. But for the time being, duped.com is alive and kicking and we'll have to see if there's another lawsuit. I suspect there may be more in that site's future, but time will tell.
- [10:43]
A
And we'll see what happens for Quints as well, which calls out a lot of name brands as we discuss. So we will. We will definitely be talking about that more in the future. In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about earnings. Williams Sonoma reported higher profit and sales this week, leading the company to raise its full year forecast. Meanwhile, Home Depot and Lowe's both had a difficult quarter, each lowering their outlook for the year. Should we start with Williams Sonoma, Fred?
- [11:08]
B
Yeah, I'm surprised their entire earnings call wasn't all about the Duke.com lawsuit. Why didn't they talk about that? More on the chat with investors? Yeah, I mean, Williams Sonoma had an apparently great quarter. All their numbers were up. Net income went up. The sales rose to 1.88 billion each. One of the brands seemed to be doing up in terms of its comps over the last. This was like a really standout quarter in a bad time for the home furniture industry. Overall, Williamson appears to be doing very well and it was really interesting. It didn't seem like the stock moved that much, but it seems like it's hard to find them putting a foot wrong on this earnings call. What do you make of it, Dennis?
- [11:47]
A
Well, poignantly, the stock actually moved lower after this news. And you find yourself at first sort of scratching your head as to why did the stock react negatively when the numbers were so strong. And I think part of that, unfortunately, was the fact that they made it clear that they've been really good at moving that supply chain around and avoiding a lot of the impact of tariffs. And they had placed a lot of large orders in previous quarters, so that much of the inventory that they were bringing in was not at the new tariff rates that we'll be seeing much more of in the fourth quarter. And they were very candid about the fact that things might look and feel very different in the next quarter. But I, I think the numbers were as strong as they were. You and I have talked about this in the past. I think Laura Alber is one of the great unsung CEOs in the home furniture space and in the home world in, in general, because Williams Sonoma has a very diverse product offering. But I, I think you see a company that is trying to pull every lever available to them to keep costs down, to find efficiencies, to bring AI into the operation, to have lots of cash and carry merchandise ready. They lean into the holidays in a way that a lot of retailers don't do nearly as effectively. So I think that was a lot of the message of this call. What do you think?
- [13:12]
B
I hope Laura's ears are burning. Come on the podcast if you're listening, Laura. We gotta get her on, Gotta get her on, gotta get her on. Yeah, a couple things there. I mean, the tariff, tariff conversation is really interesting because I feel like we've talked about this on the show a couple times where people say, oh, well, the tariffs actually haven't shot inflation up that much, as this call made clear. People still haven't even worked in the tariff inventory into their system yet. I mean, we're seven months into this thing.
- [13:37]
A
Exactly.
- [13:38]
B
And they're still like, yeah, we've managed to hold off until now. So I do think that the full impact of the tariffs hasn't been felt. Clearly, it hasn't been felt for Williams Sonoma. And that's maybe why, at least part of why the stock isn't shooting up like a rocket based on these numbers, as you said. Yeah, williamstown is such a diversified company, as you said. It's like not every furniture company can Rely on holiday sales. They were like, Halloween is big for us and Thanksgiving is big for us. That gives them a lot of options. And they're famously good at sourcing, which is really helpful at a time like this. You mentioned AI. They have this assistant that they rolled out called Olive for their Williams Sonoma brand. It's kind of funny because I feel like a couple years ago Laura Albert was talking at some conference about we really need to be careful about incorporating AI into anything customers facing. And I was just reading an article saying they rolled out this AI customer assistant over the course of 30 days and it now handles some crazy percentage of their incoming. So it shows that if nothing else, AI can be used as kind of like a customer support tool in a way that's good enough for William Sonoma. So I don't know a lot to grab onto this call. Not too many downsides except for the stock number.
- [14:47]
A
No, I agree. And I think the interesting opportunity with Williams Sonoma is, and they talked about this a little bit on the call is that I think Williams Sonoma has an opportunity to wait for it, for climb that luxury mountain themselves.
- [14:59]
B
It's getting crowded up there.
- [15:01]
A
I think, you know, they heard Nidhi Kapoor talking about how she's up there on the mountain at Maidenholm and they want some company. Listen, Williams Sonoma I think can take itself higher. Williams Sonoma home, they never sort of fully executed on the scale that I think they could. But they also talked about the brand rejuvenation which they had bought years ago, which seems to be doing quite well and they're thinking is going to be the next billion dollar brand for them. I think they see real opportunity leaning into that. So as is the case with the next two companies we're going to talk about, I think everybody is focusing on how can we get more of that higher end business because we know the lower and medium consumer is going on dupe.com and trying to find other ways to save some money.
- [15:51]
B
I feel like you see that everywhere you look in the home industry. It's like you talk to interior designers these days. The very top of the pyramid is doing great. Their clients are still spending money even slightly below that. There's a lot of, well, maybe we'll put the project up till next year or hesitation around moving forward with things. So there's really intense stratification going on and no surprise, everyone from designers to Williams Sonoma wants to be at the very top of it. So kudos to Laura Albert. Come on the show, Laura, for pushing the company in that direction. And always interesting to see what's going on there. It really was a tale of two cities on Wall street, though, because if we're going to talk about our next two companies, Home Depot and Lowe's, they appeared to have sort of a humdrum earnings call. What'd you make of their numbers, Dennis?
- [16:32]
A
Yeah, Home Depot, whose shares have been actually coming down for some time, giving us a foreshadowing of the fact that their numbers were going to be a little disappointing. And they were. They mentioned top line. We sometimes talk about this on the show, that one of the things that didn't happen for them in the recent quarter is, sadly, there weren't as many hurricanes for their business. And so, yeah, what a pity. Not as many people lost their roofs and they didn't sell as many generators, which is a big seasonal item that they do quite a bit of during this time of year. So fewer storms and fewer home sales was very much the trend in this call. And so things are stagnant. This is a company that is, again, brilliant financial engineers, but there's only so much that you can financially engineer without the business coming in. There's only so much they can do. And so the numbers were definitely disappointing. And they didn't suggest that they see a light at the end of the tunnel anytime soon.
- [17:36]
B
Yeah, I'm just going to take my quarterly opportunity to point out how huge Home Depot is here. So, you know, we were just talking about how Williams Sonoma is a really big company. You know, their earnings for the quarter were 1.88 billion. Quite a lot of money. Home Depot's were 41.3 billion. So it's an enormous entity. And, like, where goes Home Depot goes a lot of other stuff. So that's why it's a really important company to look out for. You know, it's interesting, I mean, like, to some degree, like. Like, it's kind of funny how Home Depot sort of decoupled from Williams Sonoma, because you'd think they'd be responding to the same market pressures. But it just goes to show you that this is tough sailing. And I think there was just only so much they could do. Lowe's appeared to do a little bit better, but maybe not amazingly well, just better compared to Home Depot.
- [18:19]
A
Right, well, exactly. And part of why Lowe's was doing better was because they've been trying to move higher up in the market. They've been made several big acquisitions to go after more of the contractor business, which is historically what Home Depot strength. Strength has been Lowe's was much more of the DIY brand and Home Depot was much more of a contractor driven brand. Lowe's has been aggressively trying to fix that and so they have had some success and so their numbers were actually stronger. Stock actually popped a bit on their news, so good for them. But again, same story, not a lot of optimism coming out of this call and no sense that they the housing market is going to be more robust anytime soon. And nor is there any great clarity around a resolution with interest rates and or tariffs. And so just more of the same I think is fair enough to say.
- [19:14]
B
Yeah, and we should say even, you know, we were just, you know, praising William Sonoma for having a great quarter. You know, their stock is not up and if you look at, you know, other companies in the industry, no one's stock is really popping right now. So I think no matter how good of a quarter any individual company has, I think Wall street is just looking at the overall conditions and going, yeah, housing doesn't seem to be getting better, so we're not going to buy this stock. And I think that's just the situation at the moment.
- [19:38]
A
I very much agree. It was interesting to see RH and Wayfair stock, both of those shares popped after Williams Sonoma's numbers came out almost as a sigh of relief because I think they thought if Williams Sonoma had come out with worse numbers then they too would have been dragged down. So they got a little bit of a boost even though Williams Sonoma shares were a little bit lower. But yeah, it's more of the same for now and hopefully we'll have better news to report in the coming quarters. In the meantime, we're going to talk about a new AI tool.
- [20:08]
B
Fred Indeed. Arcade, an AI platform that helps consumers create their own real life products, made its debut this week. The tool will allow users to develop custom designs for rugs, bedding, window coverings, sinks, lampshades and more, you name it. Dennis, what are you going to order first from Arcade?
- [20:26]
A
Well, I mean there's so much more that I want to learn about Arcade and understand. So do you want to break it down for us? What's going on here? Fred AI is helping you to create. Tell me how long you got.
- [20:39]
B
Dennis. This will be perfect in my cold addled state to try and explain this AI platform. So okay, I'll try and break it down. Arcade is the product of someone who's actually been on this very podcast, Maryam Nufisi, who is the founder of Minted, and she'd done a bunch of other stuff in the home industry. So basically you log on and you create a product using AI. It could be ceramics, it could be a rug, and you are then matched with a maker who is going to make that product for you. So let's say you've always wanted to make a rug that has the design of a hemlock tree on it with a red color tone. You go in, you plug those things into the AI assistant, it comes up with a drawing, you can sort of go back and forth and ultimately if you like it, you get matched with a maker and you're given a price, often right at checkout, so you know how much it's going to cost at the outset. So it's a really interesting kind of business where you're using AI to come up with a product, but ultimately you're pairing with a real maker. It's sort of a hybrid that's never really been tried before. I'm sincerely very fascinated by it. I don't know what was your first impression after clicking around on it for a little bit?
- [21:42]
A
Well, so I feel like we heard about it a while back and then the site just went live. Recently we saw our friend Dan Rosen shared that he had developed some product with it and I felt like he got some heat on his Instagram from some people, people who, some of whom I think thought he was kidding at first. And then there was, I don't know, people feel a little cynical around this AI generation artisan collaboration. What'd you make of that?
- [22:12]
B
Yeah, well, it's really interesting, right, because you know, so AI design product is not an entirely new concept. You know, I remember a long time ago we talked about Leslie Carruthers, the industry consultant who collaborated with Thompson Traders on an AI generated sync that she designed. And at the time it was sort of like, like, oh, AI is novel and interesting and it sort of felt like a cool experiment, you know, Whereas now a few years later, I feel like there really is this sort of growing AI backlash. People are using it more in their day to day life, but there is this fear around. Okay, this really is getting good. It's really going to replace our jobs. And the rise of so called AI slop has made people a little bit more circumspect around do we really want AI creating creative things for us, us? And so as you said, yeah. Dan Rosen is one of the people who's partnering with Arcade AI. He had like a line of textiles that he created with them and there was a lot of chatter on his Instagram post. About it saying like, please tell me this isn't real. Is this a joke? Come on, give me a break. There's a lot of negative sentiment around AI generated products. One person I was talking with about AI about Arcade Rather said, is this just like real world AI slop? I don't understand what this is. In Miriam's defense, I don't think it's really that. It's sort of an interesting hybrid of a couple different things. One interesting thing about the platform is that the way that they trained it was they took people on minted who consented to be part of this and they used their work to train the model. And if someone buys something that's based off of your work, you get a royalty payment. For example, let's say I designed a bunch of rugs. I agree that our Arcade can use my work to generate a new rug. If someone buys that rug, I get a payment. Which is kind of what we've always said we wanted from AI, right? Stop stealing all creatives work and start paying them for a little bit. So in a way I feel like I haven't really totally wrapped my head around all this. But in some ways she's doing what we've always said we wanted out of these AI platforms. But what do you think?
- [24:09]
A
Well, that's what I couldn't understand. It felt as if there was this AI bridge to partner with an artisan and the AI component was merely in the ideation or creative process before you. You sort of get matched up with who's going to help you. And it was interesting to see the variety of different brand partners. I mean the French silverware maker Christophe and the, and the cabana is on there and, and some other brands that people are familiar with. I guess part of my question is who do they imagine coming to this site and wanting to make product? Is this, hey, I've been looking for a great gift to make for when I go and stay at someone's home and maybe this is a fun way to create something or are they imagining that some other people are going to want to come on to make product, to sell and make things in quantity? I mean who's coming to this site to use AI and partner with these brands?
- [25:09]
B
I mean I think Mariam's answer would be yes. I think it's all of the above would probably be ideal. I mean I think that's a really interesting question. And this is so new. I think the pitch is like okay, people want custom things, right? You want something that is really specific to you, something that no one else can get. But it's very difficult and arduous to specify a custom product to work with a maker. That's something that most people can't really do. So I think that the pitch behind Arcade is that let's use AI as a communication tool so we can send a rough image to a maker. We can go back and forth using AI, get a workable design and then someone else can execute it. For me, I can have something that's kind of one of a kind, and AI sort of helped me get there. I think that's like the rosiest version of how this can work. The biggest question is, can the average consumer or average shopper really go through that level of complexity to arrive at something that they like? And is it the price that they want and is the thing they're looking for? And do customers really know what they want? I think Arcade launched last year and their first category they went after was jewelry. And I think Mariam told me that the biggest problem was that people don't really know how to interact with it. It's like they see a blank slate. They don't know what to type in, they don't know what they're looking for. And so a lot of the changes they've made turning the site on and off again have been to get to a place where people have a good customer experience. But I went into this with some skepticism around is this just creating real world AI? Slob. After talking to Miriam, I'm convinced that she wants to create a system that pays artisans and makers for their products product and pays people for their ip. I think that's really commendable. I do think there's a lot of unanswered questions here. And as we keep circling back to, there's a question of what exactly is the market for this. So we'll certainly find out. I'm excited to revisit this site. I think it's a really interesting experiment and we'll have to see. There's going to be lots more developments on this front, so let's keep an eye on it.
- [26:57]
A
In the meantime, we're going to move on and talk about should a hotel feel like a home? That's the question that Rita Koenig explores in her latest column for EL Decor, in which she takes a firm stance against unnecessary furniture, boring color schemes and hotel room TVs. Fred, did any of those resonate with you?
- [27:17]
B
Hot takes from Rita Koenig. I firmly stand against unnecessary furniture in hotel rooms. Yeah, I mean, I thought this was really interesting. And Rita Koenig is a great writer and really fun and engaging. And I do think there's so much about the confluence and divergence between domestic residential interior design rather, and hospitality interior design. They seem to come together and pull apart, and that's really fascinating. I just want to dive in really quickly on the hottest of hot button takes, where Rita talks about getting rid of the hotel room tv. Do you think there's a future without a hotel room tv? Because at this point, aren't you just looking at your phone all the time anyway? Is there a future without one? What do you think?
- [27:55]
A
You know, it's a great question, Fred. Several hotel rooms I was in recently, I actually was projecting from my phone to the TV in the room. Okay, Right. So that's. That is the thing. And it also brings up a lot of hotel rooms you check into. There's a lot of old tech that is still in hotel rooms. If you have a current iPhone, most hotel rooms can't yet accommodate you. And so I think the TV and some of the other high tech offerings are questionable. But it's interesting. What are the elements from home that would help these rooms feel warmer, better? Certainly. She mentions soft pillows, and I'm with her there. A couple of hotels have a long way to go there, but what else to you feels like home elements that you wish were on offer?
- [28:43]
B
I don't know. It's difficult because I do think we can all wax philosophical about how hotel design needs to be more like home design. But at the end of the day, a lot of it is just driven by economic imperatives. One of the things we keep coming back to on the show is most residential designers think, oh, if only I had a boutique hotel project, I could stop listening to all my clients who are whining all the time and just get a big chunk of money to just execute a project. I think the problem is once you get into that world, you're dealing with this thing called the purchasing agent, which is the intermediary in between you and the final project. And they really make all the final decisions about what gets specified. And your budget gets cut by the corporate office. And you have to make decisions around efficiency. And so I really think there's so much that could be improved about hotel design. Taking lessons from residential design, but. But I would suspect that oftentimes it's not really the designer who's failing, but more the budget. That's just a limitation. But I don't know. You travel more than I do, so I feel like You're a little more expert on this matter than I am.
- [29:38]
A
Well, I'm spoiled because when I go to London and I stay in a Kit Kemp Hotel and everything is just rub it in, Dennis is fabulous. And then you go and you stay at the La Quinta Inn, and it's a big change. But what's interesting to me and I. And maybe because I'm fresh off this trip that I just took to Chicago, where I was spending time with visual comfort, and now I'm so conscious of good lighting, but I mean, lighting. I'm amazed that we still haven't cracked the code on good hotel lighting when that seems so basic and everybody talks about that. So I think there's such an opportunity there. But I also think, what are the things that people are going to want when they get there? I'm amazed how many rooms don't have a way to. To just boil some water or have a refrigerator where you could have some of the food that you brought with you or those sort of offerings. I mean, all of these things seem so basic, but often they're not on hand.
- [30:35]
B
I think what you're getting at, and I think what Rita talks about this a little bit, and I think what probably is the truth of the matter is that it's not simply, oh, we need more residential type finishes in hotel rooms, or we need to get the look. We need to sort of think like the way a residential designer would think. Think in the sense of it's not just the look, it's how you're actually going to use the space. But I think there's a lot to learn here. And Rita Koenig is, as always, a reliable guide through the world of design.
- [31:00]
A
And she reminds us that there's a lot of opportunity in this space. And I think that, as you were talking about earlier, we went through a period where so many people wanted their homes to feel more like hotel rooms, and we moved away from that. And now I think we do want hotels to feel a little bit. Bit homier, only with those big, nice, white, fluffy robes, too. So definitely don't lose those. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including December's Can't Miss Design events and how a viral sofa pushed a Brooklyn store to the edge of bankruptcy. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break. Windows and doors might not be the flashiest part of a design project, but they can completely change the look and feel of a space. And when you're working with a trusted name like Renewal by Andersen, you know it's done right. Their interior designer loyalty program connects you with a dedicated expert who manages every detail so you can focus on your creative vision while earning exclusive rewards and trade discounts. It's smart, simple and saves you time on every project. Plus could be an additional revenue stream for your business. Apply today at renewalbyandersondesigner.com Terms and conditions apply. Eicult's atelier is designed with you in mind. Choose from a selection of their best selling upholstery styles to pair with a range of high performance fabrics for a completely bespoke creation. Atelier silhouettes are now available in muslin for design professionals to reimagine into a truly personal expression. Made to order in North Carolina, shipping anywhere in the continental US within four to six weeks. Learn more at icolts.com that's E I C H-H-O-L-T Z.com and now back to the show. And we're back. I've got two guests with me now. First up is the editor in chief of Veranda Steel Marcoux. Welcome back to the show.
- [33:12]
D
Thanks for having me. Dennis.
- [33:13]
A
So glad to have you. And Shaun Yashar, brand consultant for design professionals. Sean, welcome to the show.
- [33:20]
C
Thank you for having me.
- [33:21]
A
So glad to have you. And I'm excited to talk about the November December issue of Veranda, which is going to be part of our discussion today, which is this issue that's all about evening magic, how lighting changes everything. And it's such a fun topic born somewhat, Sean, out of a piece that you wrote for your substack about what the heck happened to nighttime photography in magazines. So let's kick it off there, Sean, and talk about why you chose to write about that and seem so passionate on the subject.
- [33:59]
C
Well, thank you. I'm passionate about a lot of subjects.
- [34:03]
A
Yes. As you know, those that know, Sean, know that. Yes.
- [34:06]
C
You know, I feel that we, we don't talk about design culture as much as we should. And so my substack is really born from that. It's about pushing the dialogue forward for decorative arts and interior design culture. And so evening photography is really one of those ideas that I've been playing around with for quite a while in my business. I produce a lot of shoots for interior designers. And I don't know, the elephant in the room or the thing that, that you can't do according to photographers, according to editors, according to people with taste, is that you can't shoot in the evening because it's coded in such a way. And I'm someone who likes to push against things that don't necessarily make sense to me.
- [34:56]
A
It's coded in such a way. So what's the code that is revealed if you say nighttime photography? What does it really mean to people?
- [35:03]
C
Without pontificating or getting too much into it, we can all agree that. That at some point as we were getting to, you know, at the precipice of the millennium, there was a shift away from nighttime photography that was so popular in the 70s and 80s and even until probably mid-90s, I would say. And with the shift to the millennium, there was a new administration that wanted to differentiate and, you know, I guess in a way, like. Like revolt against a certain type of art direction. And it's miraculous to me, and this is why I propose us to have this conversation with my readers, is that about 25 years of this constant desire for, like, this evenly lit Endless Summer aesthetic is quite a wild amount of time. And I think it is kind of rooted in this idea of, like, evening photography and is somehow out of fashion.
- [36:05]
A
Okay, okay. So, Steel, were you part of this new administration? Steel that came in and didn't want there to be nighttime photography? Steele, is this.
- [36:14]
D
I mean, I think I was definitely trained that way. I don't know. My first magazine job was in 2006. And so I wasn't the president at that time. I was more just like an intern, literally. But I would say that I certainly was trained that way. All of the art directors just sort of scoff or turn their nose up if you, you know, if there was ever even a scouting shot with the light on, you know, someone would say, make sure when you're on the shoot, there are no lights. All the shades are open, you know, maybe even open the doors to let more natural light in. So I. I mean, when. When Sean's piece came out, which now has probably been a year, maybe a year and a half ago, it just resonated so strongly with me because, you know, I grew up reading AD, and before it was called AD, Architectural Digest in the 80s and 90s, and there was evening photography all the time. But, yeah, suddenly, you know, in the 2000s, it was like, that was dated. And maybe even as you said, Sean, like, in bad taste, you know, people just totally turned their nose up at it.
- [37:16]
A
In bad taste? Really?
- [37:18]
D
Yeah.
- [37:18]
A
We're speaking in such strong terms.
- [37:20]
D
We're going there.
- [37:21]
A
Well, so Sean and you brought it up in part because it sounded as Though you felt something was lost having nighttime photography go away. So talk to me about that. What were we losing? What are we missing out on?
- [37:38]
C
Well, ultimately, interior design has always been about the art of vibing. And if you really think about it in that context, the evening hours are a vibe, a vibe that enhances a lot of stories. And so for me, I think really what it's about is interior designers might design some homes for evening hours. And so not telling the story accurately is really what is lost. So every story can't be variations on the theme of endless summer. And really, what is happy. Some people are happy at night. There are also people who are nocturnal. I just feel that for us as storytellers, we should be able to work with the, you know, the biggest toolbox of tools, and that's what's missing.
- [38:30]
A
Well, and as you say, the reality, Sean, of this is when so many people are really home, at least back in the day when everyone left their house to go to work. That has changed a great deal, I understand, especially for myself. But, Steel, I'm wondering what. What particularly resonated about all of this with you and what made you want to jump all the way into this subject and actually create an issue out of it?
- [38:58]
D
You know, I think it was a couple of things. I mean, first of all, there was some nostalgia to it. Like I said, I remember paging through magazine design and shelter magazine issues in the 1980s and 90s and seeing all that great evening photography. I also think, think all of us, whether it was for six weeks or six months or, you know, six years, have been spending more time at home since the pandemic. And I think whether we wanted to or didn't, we became more acutely aware of how light changes throughout the day in our homes. And so for so many of us who were, you know, prior to the pandemic, only home, maybe from 6pm to 6am or thereabouts, maybe we didn't notice the change as much because there was less change. Right. But if you're there 24 hours in a day, you really see how dynamic your rooms become and how different they appear. All great designers design certain rooms to be enjoyed in the evening hours. Also during the pandemic, I'd had a conversation with David Netto where he talked about the night room. And this is something that we did a little story about, a couple of stories about, actually very inspired by David's idea of the night room. But there are obviously different paint colors. You would choose different, different upholstery, textiles, probably different rugs and carpets. I mean, all different selections that you would make for a night room. And so in reading Sean's newsletter, it just. It really did. Sean, I know you've laughed about this with me a little bit, but it seemed like a call to action. That's how I interpret it.
- [40:29]
C
I love that that's how you took it.
- [40:30]
D
It very much was. And we were, you know, a few weeks later, we were having a meeting with the top editor, sort of brainstorming new ideas for issue themes. Veranda has six issues a year, so we get very. Six issues is like. We can't quite be seasonal, so we get more thematic a little bit. And so somehow this idea of a theme of light, lighting, evening came up, and it just sort of. I said, oh, my gosh, has anyone read Sean's newsletter? And we just kind of took it and ran with it.
- [40:59]
A
Well, and it seems there were a lot of different ways that you. That you covered this topic, both in projects and showing projects at various times of day and in various land. And I think it's the Richard Keith Langham project that's actually in the evening and you see the dark out the window.
- [41:14]
D
Yeah, that one we shot entire. Well, maybe not entirely, but all. But like, two or three images or rooms we shot at night. And that one is the one that our creative director really. I think he was starting to think that I'd lost my mind, because, Keith, apologies, if you're listening, that house is beautiful during the day and during the night. And so the creative director was like, are you kidding me? We're gonna shoot this room in the dark, like, with the lights on? Because, look, we have a scouting shot, and we can see how beautiful it is during full daylight or whatever. But that's what we did. And we actually did. We shot most of the house in both day and night light, and we kind of used a mix in the layout. But, yeah, that one in particular, the creative director was starting to get a little nervous, I think.
- [42:01]
C
But being nervous is good.
- [42:03]
D
Yeah, I know, right?
- [42:04]
C
Yeah. I mean, it happens in fashion. There are eras where it's about skinny jeans and then it's about, you know, bootleg jeans, and it goes back and forth. And so it's just something about design culture where there are new people entering the design world, even as consumers as just interested. We have more eyes on the design world than we've ever had. We're really on the precipice of this, like, new era. And in this era, it makes sense for us now to step into Creativity in a new way, as you say. Steel. There are these houses that just, like, you know, that it's better in the evening, and it's such a disservice to have to shoot it that way. And in the case of the project you're talking about how wonderful that it's great for both, there should be two separate shoots.
- [42:52]
D
Exactly.
- [42:53]
C
Or maybe that's pushed to Socials or that's pushed to something else. You know, there's just, like, this opportunity to do more.
- [43:00]
D
Oh, you're inspiring me. Because actually, we do have a lot of rooms from that particular house where we shot it at two different times of day. And how fun. On Social. We should do a whole series where we sort of turn lights on, lights off, lights on.
- [43:12]
A
Well, and that's why, Sean, I was so curious when you were talking earlier about the coding behind nighttime photography. So I'm biased because the lovely Mrs. Scully worked for Architectural Digest for much of her career.
- [43:25]
B
But.
- [43:25]
A
But I think many look back at the. Let's call it the 80s and 90s of Architectural Digest's heyday, and even the early 2000s, there was a glamour, there was an elegance and a sophistication to that publication and all that it was showing you. And this was when Architectural Digest was such a part of the zeitgeists and was referred to on sitcoms and was just part of the culture in a way that magazines in general just don't have that kind of influence and power today. But part of that was this old Hollywood feel that it would sometimes have. And nighttime photography was certainly a key element in that, right?
- [44:11]
C
Oh, absolutely. And also I love, of course, glamour, of course, sophistication, also this kind of excess feeling of the 80s or the hedonistic quality of maybe disco era. And, you know, there's deeper stuff to talk about, you know, about why we would want to go away from anything that feels hedonistic starting in the 90s.
- [44:37]
A
Did we make a mistake turning away from all of that, Sean? Is that what you're suggesting?
- [44:41]
C
There are no mistakes. There are only opportunities.
- [44:44]
A
Take us back is all I have to say on that note. But, Steel, I want to come back to you and talk about. So when you first broke the idea of doing all of this and creating this issue, what was the feedback that you got both internally from your team and then as you started to put it out there in the ether, as Shawn was referring to earlier?
- [45:06]
D
You know, I would say on our team, we have such a creative team, and it was pretty much wild enthusiasm from day One, you know, everybody from our editor who produces jewelry shoots, you know, she was instantly going, oh, my God, yes, there used to be a rule, you're not supposed to wear diamonds during the day. Let's do diamonds. Diamonds at night. And then to someone else, who one of our passionate flower and garden editors. Actually, she's a digital editor for us, but she thought, we've got to talk about moon gardens and flowers that bloom at night and that sort of thing. So there was a lot of enthusiasm from our editorial team. As I mentioned, our brilliant creative director was a little nervous being the standard bearer and all for the brand. So, you know, we, we worked under his, you know, his guiding sort of principles, of course, but. And then I would say, you know, then you start to. Anytime you plan an issue like this, it's sort of born internally. You start to work through what story ideas, how we're going to shoot them, et cetera. And then you start to take it a little bit outside of the four walls of veranda to say the sales team, and you go, listen to what we're going to do. What do you think? And they, they got on board pretty quickly, too. I mean, I think, you know, at first it was sort of like, well, there are only so many lighting companies. And I'm like, no, no, no, it's not just for the lighting companies. You know, it's just, it's anybody. I mean, Sean, again, as you say, like, it's anyone in the design world that they're going to understand.
- [46:35]
C
Yeah, but I actually think that, speaking of lighting, I think designers listening can agree with this. How many, like, websites of lighting design design brands tear sheets that show images of the light only off? I know it's really perplexing. Like, it's kind of wild that you're selling a light without the light and you might not even have that. Even if you, like, reach out and say, hey, I need an image of it with the lights on, they won't have it as a light brand. So I actually think this is such an, that was such an opportunity for lighting brands to show their lights on for the first time in, like a long time.
- [47:09]
A
And there's such an interesting. And we'll. And we'll get to this in a minute, but I mean, I thought the feedback from photographer Douglas Friedman. Sean, to your post about some of the lighting challenges that have evolved over the years because lighting has changed so much. But take us back, Steel, because there's an advertising component in all of this. So at some point, so at some point the advertising team must have said, hey, I've got an idea for this client.
- [47:34]
D
Yeah, they did. I mean, so the editor's letter is a native ad, which we'd only ever done once before for a fabric company. And we had this. That was a few years back, and we sort of. I don't want to say formula, but we had this kind of formula and this idea to take to fabric companies of like, oh, wouldn't it be cool? We can tie our issue theme to your textiles and we could do a little border. I mean, Cabana has nailed this idea. You know, Cabana does a whole, you know, textile cover. That would be my dream for Veranda, by the way, if anyone at Hearst is listening.
- [48:05]
A
A textile cover?
- [48:06]
D
Well, yeah, sure. Yeah.
- [48:07]
A
Cause I hear those are easy to put together.
- [48:08]
D
Very easy. Yeah. I'm sure Hurst wants to get on board with all of that, those costs.
- [48:14]
A
Absolutely. They're looking for innovative ways to spend a lot more money on print media, is what I understand.
- [48:19]
D
They put that message out a lot.
- [48:21]
C
Yes.
- [48:22]
D
So. So anyway, so then. So, you know, the marketing team was kind of like, well, how could we do this? But for Hunter Douglas, because they're interested. They got on board. They totally, you know, love the idea of the issue. And so anyway, it took a little more, I guess, tap dancing and finesse, but in the end, and I mean, this is what you want from a native ad, is that it actually was so supportive of the editorial mission, and it felt like bonus content that we weren't gonna otherwise have. And so it ended up working out really great. And frankly, even as we're sitting here talking, I'm like, oh, I have so many more ideas for a whole nother lighting issue.
- [48:57]
A
Well, and did anybody give you pushback? I mean, you said you've done it once before with a fabric company. Did anybody give you a hard time about there being an advertiser on the edit, like, letter? And did the sky fall? Did the heavens open? Did. I mean, dogs and cats living together? Did frogs come from the sky?
- [49:15]
B
What happened?
- [49:15]
D
No locusts so far, Vincent. On my house or whatever. But no, I. You know, Dennis, I appreciate the question, because the deal was inked before, you know, certain folks at Hearst even knew. But. But I did. I did realize that it was probably wise to give, you know, my mentor for a heads up. And in the end, she was very complimentary, both, mainly of our creative director, again, Victor Mays. But saying, okay, this actually really, to the point I was making earlier, this seems to actually thoroughly support the mission of the issue itself. And so well done. But, yeah, I did have a pit in my stomach for 15 minutes of like, oh, shoot, that's already kind of a done deal. So hopefully everyone will be.
- [50:03]
A
Hopefully everyone's gonna get on board with that really quickly. Well, it's interesting because, I mean, there is certainly an old guard, right, that will. That will faint at the mere mention that there is an advertiser involved in the edit letter. And I wonder if that speaks to, in part, this new age that we're in, and if an advertiser likes this idea of what we're doing with the issue.
- [50:27]
D
Let's go. I mean, perhaps, probably. But I will say, all joking aside, there are, you know, we have this wonderful editorial director at Hearst, Lucy Kalin, who's the mentor I was referring to, and she has the highest of standards and is not gonna compromise. She also is very aware of the economics of late 2025 or whatever. But I think I rely on her and I trust her, and I trust her judgment. And so that was where I was like, okay, let me at least get her eyes on this before it goes to press so that she's not caught off guard opening Veranda, like, a few weeks from now, going, what in the hell happened here? But in this case, it was so organic how it came up. It's not like someone came to us and said, would you ever do this? And then we sort of, hey, did.
- [51:16]
A
You ever do a nighttime issue?
- [51:19]
B
Yeah.
- [51:19]
D
And we tossed out all the work we'd already done and then, like, Reed did everything. No, instead, it really did stem from what I now understand to be a conversation between you, Dennis and Fred and then Sean. And then it made its way to me because I subscribed to Sean's newsletter. And anyway, but here we are. So in that sense, it was much more organic than. Which is the way we like things to work.
- [51:41]
A
No, no, no, Absolutely. And I'm so glad that you said that. And shout out to my devoted colleague Fred Nicholaus, who actually wrote a piece, a wonderful piece, a Shot in the Dark, way back in 2019. Such a good piece about what did happen to nighttime photography and the role of that Paige Rentz played. And then Martha Stewart kind of brightened things up. And that was an interesting discussion as well, but also so interesting to hear from the photographers of what some of the challenges were. And as we've talked about in the Paige Rent's days, she acted as though the photographers sort of, oh, they decided they wanted to shoot at night. And so we just went along with that we find that very hard to believe. Those that have any understanding of that administration, to use your word, Shawn. But I don't think people were too freewheeling in the Paige Rentz years. But I do think that she had enormous respect and regard for the photographers who worked with her. And they were incredibly talented photographers, certainly. But as we alluded to earlier over the years, in part because. And designers hate when this issue comes up. Incandescent light bulbs were forced to go away. Interior lighting, as Douglas Friedman pointed out in one of his comments to your piece, Shawn, that suddenly interior lighting changed a great deal. Lighting temperatures were all over the place. And actually you turned on five lamps and they might all have different kinds of bulbs and temperatures. So that issue certainly came up. But what else came up, Sean, after you put this piece and out?
- [53:22]
C
Well, if we're talking about lighting, one of the other pieces of the shift is just technological advancements. So somewhere in the early 2000s in the business shifted from film to digital. What ended up happening was, sadly, a lot of those great photographers didn't make the shift change. And I think designers became very excited by the level of, like, perfectionism that you can create. So there's an aspect of shooting on film where you don't have live feed at a shoot. You know, shadows really help to get a better product, I think, when you can't lean into retouching in the same way.
- [54:00]
D
Totally.
- [54:01]
C
So there's like, that aspect of it. And imagine when everyone discovered, like, facetune, you know what I mean? Like, they started tuning their faces.
- [54:10]
A
Wasn't that a fun time?
- [54:12]
C
That wasn't that a fun time? And then they got over it. They realized, realize whatever they realize. And I think that happened too. So it was this idea of this new technology and people just being so excited to use it, and it turned into this, like, game of perfectionism and the ability to achieve a certain type of perfectionism. And that was like, perfectionism in the sense of, like, no shadows and everything being even. And I think that the pendulum has swung, though, and we realize that we can get perfect and perfect isn't as exciting.
- [54:43]
D
Well, and just to. Just to dovetail off of that a little bit. I mean, when people started looking at these same images that have been created using digital photography on a backlit screen on social media, I mean, now you really were really getting, like, very white and perfect and sort of bright, and, you know, there's just no shadow whatsoever, you know, And I think. I think you're exactly right that the combo of the two of those things again, many, many years in now, our eye may want to see. May crave even seeing something else.
- [55:18]
C
Yeah, for sure. I love that point. I'm going to add something else in that might. I don't think it's going to sound controversial, but it might be.
- [55:26]
D
Oh, bring it, Sean.
- [55:27]
C
Well, because I don't mean anything about it other than this is my observation, I don't know. But I would imagine that speaking to Paige Rentz and her responsibility, respect for the photographer as the artist, I would imagine there was maybe less collaboration. And we're living in this world where, like, everybody wants to collaborate, and I don't believe that that's right at all times. And I know sometimes when I'm doing a project, and I understand that the designer has a idea of the room, and you absolutely need to respect that and absorb that. But ultimately, you know that saying, like a camel is a horse designed by committee, like, totally. It can't be everything for everyone. And I've had designers who say, well, that fabric isn't that color. And sure, sure, it's not that color, but what are you trying to achieve by getting it accurate? So I also think that we had a time that. Where we respected people in their roles in a way that maybe we. I don't know if the word's respect, but we have gotten so obsessed collaboration, and I think that sometimes the work suffers from this need to be. Everyone is everything. Everyone has to contribute, and they have to contribute in this, like, democratic way.
- [56:45]
D
To your point, it's like, where who's the artist of the photograph? You know, who's the sort of creator of the art, art of the photograph, and who gets to have the kind of ultimate say on that? I mean, magazines are certainly guilty of it. With the dawn of digital photography, now you can send every single image back to the, you know, home office, and we can, behind a little screen, very wizard of Oz style, saying, like, no, no, move that one inch over, you know, whatever. And that is a quick way to kill any sort of spontaneity on a photo set, which obviously light plays such a role in spontaneity, and that's where the magic happens.
- [57:24]
C
100. And I'm big on the D all of the above when it comes to shooting a project. Because truthfully, when you're shooting a pro, when an interior designer is having their project shot, it's actually the product in a way. You know, it's not just the shadow. It is. It is a substance. Because how many people are actually going to experience that house and knowing that it makes sense to maybe shoot a project more than once. And of course, we're getting into, like, so many other variables that we don't need to get into. But, yes, variables aside, shoot a project during the day, shoot it in the evening. If it calls for the. Shoot it for documentation where you will have the fabric at the exact color, because maybe there's a reason why you need that. But this idea of cramming it all in, it won't work. What kind of film are we making? Is it a comedy? Is it a drama? What is it?
- [58:14]
D
Yeah, no, that's so true. That's so true. Yeah.
- [58:17]
A
Well, it's so interesting, too, Sean, picking up on this whole committee aspect of photo shoots today and how elaborate they've become. Rumor has it that back in the page reading A, there certainly weren't stylists around, and editors weren't usually allowed there on the shoot either. And so there were far fewer people. And they weren't shooting for Instagram, which is what the whole industry has contorted itself into making possible for that image to look as great as it does on your phone. And one wonders if nighttime photography lends itself very well. Well, to what those images look like there, which is another aspect of this. But we're living in this golden age of the stylus and the huge role that stylists have played. And many would say photography's gotten a lot better because of the stylist. But also, yes, it does change some of the look and feel. And many designers often feel very sensitive about how much gets changed in a project. When a stylist comes in and shoots it for a publication, you're often getting a very different feel, feel. And back in the day, it was how it was laid out, and that was what they came and shot, for the most part.
- [59:28]
C
So for sure. But that's why, as a. Yes. And that's why we don't work with. I mean, of course we have people that we love working with, but we have lots of options. And so during the period of time where you're developing the brand or refreshing the brand, some of the team building is part of it. And, you know, you try to find the photographer that's going to bring out what's natural and authentic to that design brand. And the same with the stylist. And that's what's so great. And I actually wrote another piece about stylists, my last piece, and I actually, I believe that we. And maybe still you could attest to this. Like, we're we're at a deficit of stylists.
- [60:06]
A
It's a great point. I mean, I ask people all the time, can you name 10 stylists? Because you can name, you know, you can name all the big ones. Yeah, but how many people can rattle off? I couldn't agree more, because I think we've learned so much about what a stylist can do and bring, and there is so much that is better. And to your earlier point, Sean, and then I want to come back to Steel and talk about this issue. But to your point, we've also learned so much more about how the photography can work in service of the designer, the project, all of it. We weren't as conscious of shooting for books and magazines and Instagram and all of that. And nowadays those Kips Bay rooms that become the ads for the Shade Store and all of the like, that's just changed the way we think, honestly, for the better. We've become so much more sophisticated about the power of what these images can do. But Steel, let's come back to other elements of putting this magazine together with this broad idea of the evening magic. So there were some fabric shoots that were done with this in mind. And so tell me about it.
- [61:13]
D
Yeah, the fabric. I'm glad you mentioned the fabric one, because that I just love. Thank you so much. Right before we hopped on, I was kind of refreshing my memory. It's so funny how that works. We're now working on our March issue. We're six months ahead.
- [61:28]
A
We so moved on.
- [61:29]
D
Oh, yeah. We're full spring now. But the fabric story was a great one. Our two style and market editors, who know the textile industry backwards and forwards, had this took inspiration from the evening sort of focus and thought, okay, first of all, let's select textiles with metallic threads and that sort of thing so that there's, you know, some sort of shimmer in evening light. And then second of all, why not take inspiration from, you know, fashion and couture and sort of style the textiles themselves, have them made into clothing pieces and style them on mannequins and dress forms and that sort of thing. And then third of all, we do. That's the kind of story that we shoot in studio here in Birmingham Ham with our staff photographer. She is excellent, but we really allowed her a chance to flex because normally what I would say she's excellent at doing is natural light in studio. And this time we were like, okay, remember how our studio has no natural light, but you make it seem like it does? This time we want you to go the opposite direction. And she did that beautifully as well. But, yeah, I think your average reader may or may not understand this when they glance at that story. But, I mean, that required us to find a different seamstress because the seamstress that we usually use to make, you know, a bunch of pillows or, you know, window treatments from the textiles that we call in and, you know, focus on for stories, it doesn't have quite the same skill set. So, you know, again, our style and market editors had to get super resourceful and find other craftspeople and artisans to work with on this issue. But that was part of the fun of it. Another funny thing from that story, many of us bought the item in a prop sale where you realize, like, oh, gosh, it's becoming expensive to work at Veranda. And I bought one of the gowns and I wore it to the Birmingham Antiques at the Gardens event back in October. So that was really fun, too, because I was sort of like a walking billboard for the issue. I love that. Yeah, it was really fun.
- [63:29]
A
Well, so tell me, Steel, because I know we're running out of time. Tell me what the feedback has been, what people have had to say both internally and externally, what have you.
- [63:40]
D
I mean, it's been great. I think, you know, so much positive feedback. Again, I think we tapped into a little bit of nostalgia. And so either for readers who, you know, had seen this 30 plus years ago but hadn't seen it recently, there's been a lot of fun sort of trip down memory lane or nostalgia. And then for our prized younger audience that we do actually have, there's a novelty to it. So when you've got novelty and nostalgia, you've sort of hit on something pretty fun. The one piece of negative feedback that we have run into, which. Oh, my God, I have another pun. Has overshadowed the issue theme just a little bit. I have to be honest and admit my mistakes here.
- [64:27]
A
Tell me.
- [64:28]
D
But you'll notice this issue is our November December issue, which is normally our holiday issue. Yes, and that's coming. It's just that our. The timing of our issues shifted a little bit this year. And so anyway, long story long, that is what will normally. What normally would have been a January, February issue. We're just calling it holiday issue. It comes out first week in December. But I did get quite a few emails from folks saying, this is nice and all, but I'm confused. Why did you eschew, you know, holiday in favor of evening? And they said evening would have been great in your winter issue. We wanted Holiday in November.
- [65:03]
A
December.
- [65:04]
B
Right, right.
- [65:04]
D
So that was interesting.
- [65:05]
A
Did people feel this was an attack on Christmas? They did. Is that really Christmas?
- [65:10]
D
I don't know if you've noticed, but yeah, they felt it was an attack.
- [65:12]
A
On Christmas because a lot of people feel it's under attack. And here you are just giving support. Okay, Right, I know, right?
- [65:18]
D
Just arming those folks. We may go back to our regularly scheduled cadence next year. Let's just put it that way.
- [65:27]
A
Okay, Lesson learned. But did it? Okay, but if you moved it to a different issue, was there a reason to do something like this again?
- [65:36]
D
Yes. That has influenced many in art meeting. When we shoot a house instead, now we're saying, wait, actually that particular room or that particular space would be better shot at. I mean, we are starting to work that into any old photo shoot. Not just like, oh, let's do a whole issue about it, but rather, when we are going to shoot a house, we always have an art meeting. And we are now sort of working in and looking for opportunities to shoot something not at like that perfect magic daylight that we'd all become accustomed to. And that's been really exciting.
- [66:11]
A
Well, that's great.
- [66:12]
B
Yeah.
- [66:13]
A
Right. And so for you, Sean, a little bit of a feeling of mission accomplished here, do you feel?
- [66:18]
C
No, I love it. That's the whole point of this. So thank you so much. Steel.
- [66:22]
D
Oh, my gosh, no, thank you. And thanks to Fred. I missed the article in 2019. I've since read it, but yes. Yeah, no, thank you all.
- [66:30]
A
Well, and I'm thrilled when something like this comes up and there's a whole community discussion around it. And listen, it sounds like there were a lot of challenges with shooting at night and a lot of reasons why people moved on. And. And I get it. But now, as you say, steal a little bit of nostalgia, but also some learnings for the next generation about Right. Sounds like a win win to me. And so I hope that we will have more of these things come up. We'll be reading Sean's letter and seeing what else we can.
- [67:03]
C
Yes, please. The Culture Creative papers. I do it from a place of love, and I hope you can feel that.
- [67:09]
D
In addition to the business of Home podcast and the Thursday show. Yes, Sean's newsletter is one of my must reads. I mean, it is so good for those of you who are not subscribed. You absolutely should. It always makes me think, and it is true, Sean, that you can tell you're writing it from a place of love and just pure passion for this industry and this culture. And there are always good ideas. We're starting to talk about 2027 ideas soon, so I'll be mining your new set of ideas.
- [67:37]
A
Well, and, Sean, I hope that we can talk about some other things that you've written about as well, because. Because you've really been driving home a few points recently that I want to get into further with you. So I don't know if all of them will lead to a whole issue of Veranda being dedicated to it, but this has been great, and I thank you both so much for making this conversation possible. I'm thrilled to get to talk with you both.
- [68:01]
D
Likewise.
- [68:02]
C
Likewise. This was so fun. Thank you.
- [68:03]
D
So fun.
- [68:09]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [68:16]
B
Yeah, normally we like to focus on kind of fun stuff here at the end of the show, but I just want to bring up a little bit of news that was kind of too bad. We reported earlier this week that Hearst has laid off some of its editorial team across House Beautiful and Elle Decor, which is, you know, really too bad. Of course, I'm an editor and writer, so I, you know, really feel for those kinds of people. But these are very talented people. I'm sure they'll land on their feet.
- [68:37]
C
But.
- [68:37]
B
But I was just sort of sad to see that, you know, including, you know, really talented editor Ingrid Abramovich, who's been at El Decor, the executive editor for a very long time, extremely talented person. Gave. Gave me my start in writing for El Decor. So just shouts to her and the other editors, and I'm sure they'll land on their feet. But, you know, sign of the times, very, very crazy time for media, and.
- [68:58]
A
Just shouts to them, yeah, absolutely. Ingrid is so well thought of. And. And, you know, kudos to Shawn Santiago, who. Who turned the whole experience for him into. Into a music video that he dropped. And I think he's got a new career waiting for him. He's got a new single coming out on Spotify.
- [69:14]
B
Shawn Santiago is good at content. There's no question about that. But, I mean, it's. It's. It's just too bad. And I'm. I'm sure, like I said, I'm sure they'll be fine. But just that kind of sign of the times. And so if you're listening to this and you want to hire some great editors, those are two names right off.
- [69:27]
A
The back to be sure. First up, I wanted to talk about first dibs, which in addition to the meteoric rise in the price of the stock, it's more than doubled off of its recent lows and I think it was up about 10% today while we've been talking. But interestingly, we talked about an AI pricing tool that the company had been using on last week's show and apparently they're dialing that effort back and, and getting some more feedback from customers. I think our own Caroline Burke is going to be writing about it later this week, so perhaps we will talk about it more in another show. But we look forward to reading Caroline's piece. In the meantime on what's happening there, I also wanted to talk about a couple of dates that are coming up where I'll be talking with a couple of big name designers at the New York School of Interior Design. I do a program called Dialogues on Design at NISID. And December 4th I will be sitting down with Andre Malone. Very much like looking forward to that. And the week after that, December 11th Nicole Hollis is kindly flying in from San Francisco to sit down with me at nisid. So definitely come and come see us for those conversations at the New York School of Interior Design. It's one of my favorite spaces to be in and we get to have a lot of students in the audience, which is always fun as I try and convince them to become residential designers. All right, that's all the time time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholas and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend and we'll be back with you on Monday.