← Business of Home Podcast
Business of Home Podcast
The Thursday Show: Why Williams-Sonoma is suing Quince. Plus: 1stDibs revises a controversial pricing tool
00:41:55
Host Dennis Scully and BOH executive editor Fred Nicolaus discuss the biggest news in the design world.
Loading summary
Transcript91 lines
- [00:08]
A
This is Business of home.
- [00:09]
B
I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday show.
- [00:12]
A
Today we'll be catching up on the biggest news in the design industry, including Stark's latest acquisition, why Williams Sonoma is suing Quince, and whether tariffs will have an impact on style. To do all that, I'm joined by.
- [00:26]
B
Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nicholaus.
- [00:29]
A
Hi, Fred.
- [00:29]
C
Hi, Dennis. How's it going?
- [00:31]
B
Great.
- [00:31]
A
How you doing?
- [00:32]
C
I'm good, though. Why did we agree this?
- [00:35]
A
How did we get roped into it.
- [00:37]
C
Seemed like a good idea recording a show right before Thanksgiving, and then the day rolls around.
- [00:43]
A
Yes.
- [00:44]
C
So to the 15 people who are listening to this, as you do your turkey trot or as you baste your butterball, I'm very grateful to have our listeners. I don't know about you, Dennis, but.
- [00:55]
A
I feel the same way. Fred. Grateful. And perhaps we're spending Thanksgiving morning with them, which nothing could be nicer.
- [01:02]
C
Exactly. From our perspective. Anyway. Anyway, I'm also grateful for our Monday guest, Dan Cahoon of the Showroom, Jerry Pear, a venerable southern institution. Really fun to hear sort of war stories about how it used to be down in Atlanta in the design industry. What did you make of the conversation, Dennis?
- [01:19]
A
Well, you know, many people love to say, oh, I grew up in the industry, but I feel like Dan Cahoon can really say, yeah, yeah, I really did. I really did grow up around the industry. His mom was running the Jerry Pear showroom while Jerry Pear and all the outside salespeople were caravaning around the country in the 1970s, which I would love to know so much more about what that.
- [01:42]
C
Let's make a movie, a road trip movie about that.
- [01:46]
A
Yes, I. Staying in people's homes and. And who knows what these design firms were that they were calling on. But. But. But a business that therefore has been around for. For 50 years, and. And Dan eventually takes ownership of it over the years, and also very gently and gracefully allows Jerry Pear to stay on in the business. He didn't really go into this in great detail, but you can put the math together. Jerry Pear stuck around for quite a long time after he said, sure, you can buy my business, but also, I'll be here for a while.
- [02:21]
C
That tends to be the way, you know, a graceful, slow exit, I think, is often the situation in these. In these cases. Yeah. I thought it was just a fun conversation. I loved all those old history tales. I also just loved. You know, there's kind of a weird duality to the design industry, where on the one hand, you know, Dan was talking about like, well, the Internet changed everything. Atlanta's totally different and the way you talk to designers is totally different. We got to figure out AI. But on the other hand, he was like, you know, nothing really changes, does it? And it feels like that, you know, it's like so many of the surface level things change, but then there is also this continuity to it which kind of makes it a fun and reassuring place to be in equal measures. Do you feel the same, Dennis?
- [03:01]
B
I do.
- [03:01]
A
I mean, I think it is an industry that feels like so much is the same. But interestingly in the conversation, what's clearly not the same pricing obviously got a lot more discipline and rigor around it.
- [03:15]
C
Right. That's the thing. It's like it feels like everything's the same, but everything's different. It's one of those paradoxes. We're going to figure it out one of these days.
- [03:22]
A
Dan said at one point that invoicing and actually having paperwork for things wasn't a priority. So yeah, it's a great history and fun to see that Dan now has a cloud based computing software program for the industry. Right. So some things have changed quite a bit.
- [03:41]
C
Exactly. Not too many cloud based computing systems in 1970s on those road rep road trips. But anyway, fun shot.
- [03:48]
A
Absolutely. I hope that people will enjoy it. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news.
- [03:58]
B
This podcast is sponsored by Renewal by Andersen. Hey designers, here's a quick tip before we dive in. If you're juggling client projects that include replacing windows and doors, you need to know about Renewal by Andersen's interior designer loyalty program. It's a game changer. They take care of the window and door replacement side so you don't have to. You'll get trade discounts, exclusive rewards, and a team that truly knows what they're doing. Enjoy having a trusted expert who makes your projects run smoother. Apply today@realbyandersondesigner.com Terms and conditions apply. This podcast is sponsored by ICOULTS, the European luxury designer brand with globally inspired appeal. Discover their whole home offerings across furniture, lighting, decorative accessories and outdoor eicolts makes it easy to create timeless interiors with in stock pieces shipping in just one to two weeks from its North Carolina warehouse. Plus a customizable upholstery program delivering bespoke pieces in just four to six weeks to anywhere in the US Explore new introductions, unlock competitive trade benefits and find your local store@icolts.com that's Eich H O L T Z.com.
- [05:22]
A
And we're back. First up, Fred, the dupe wars continue.
- [05:28]
C
The Empire Strikes Back. It was, this was. This one was bound to happen. Last Friday, Williams Sonoma sued Quince alleging false advertising and unfair business practices. Now, did we call this? I kind of forget. I'm sort of, I've already mentally checked out for Thanksgiving. I don't remember if we said this was going to happen.
- [05:44]
A
I'm pretty sure at the end of the conversation last week about dupe.com we suggested, could Quince be far behind? And clearly the answer is no. So let's get into what the lawsuit's all about, shall we?
- [05:58]
C
Let's do it. And don't no one check the tape. Let's just assume we were right. So I guess we should start by just saying, what is Quince? So Quince, of course, is the direct to consumer company founded only a few years ago, already is apparently a billion dollars in annual revenue. So that's pretty impressive. What they do is produce very cheap goods and sell them online, often kind of targeting best sellers by other brands. They'll identify a real hit for another company. They'll find a way to do a very similar product for less and they'll sell it for less and they'll blast the Internet with their ads. They've been getting a lot more into furniture recently, which we talked about a few weeks ago on the show. And key to their whole marketing approach is they'll put their own product and they'll say this is like pottery barn but $100 less or this is restoration hardware quality for half the price. So sort of their entire like go to market strategy is we're like those brands but affordable. And you know, I think that probably creates no small amount of animosity in the marketplace. And apparently they, one of those people who was upset was William Sonoma. And now we have this lawsuit that's focused on these, these ads that Quints has been running.
- [07:03]
A
They're poking the bear, right? I feel like, I feel like they're asking, hey, come, come get us. Because they aren't shying away from calling out the names of different brands. And I wonder if this is just the kind of attention that they want in this lawsuit. Sort of curious.
- [07:21]
C
It's possible. You know, the lawsuit talks about how there was sort of back channel communication between William Sonoma and Quince. William Sonoma comes across as very much like in this lawsuit. They paint themselves as sort of the upstanding citizen. There's an element of like, we knew that Quints must be just simply mistaken that they're claiming they have the same quality at a lower price. So he reached out to clear up that confusion. And William Sonoma says that in communication with Quince, Quince said, we welcome a fight over this. So, yeah, potentially this is, maybe they welcome this fight, maybe they welcome the marketing attention that comes from it. There have been other lawsuits against Quince. The makers of Ugg boots sued Quince, as well as the people who make the Yeti coolers and tumblers also sued Quince. So maybe this is all kind of part of a bigger strategy on Quince's part. William Sonoma was in no mood to. Williams Sonoma was in a mood to find out. And it's interesting, of course, because this comes hot on the heels of this lawsuit against dupe.com, which was argued on very similar grounds. It's not that Williams Sonoma is claiming that Quince is knocking off their products. They're claiming false advertising. They're saying Quince is saying we have the exact same quality at a lower price. And William Sonoma is saying, no, you don't. And that's basically the crux of the lawsuit.
- [08:33]
A
And interestingly, William Sonoma is, in the context of these lawsuits, continuing to lean very heavily into, listen, we design 90% plus of our product internally. This is, this is our own proprietary product. And that's a very important part of their, their branding message. They're all about, we're a design led digital first company, which is always so funny to me since it's primarily a retail store company. And so it's funny that they've worked so hard to try and rebrand themselves as digital first and design led. But clearly Williams Sonoma feels like they cannot sacrifice any margin or any territory to whether it's Duke.com or Quince. They just can't afford to lose any sales to anybody who's saying they've got it for cheaper and it's the same product is how it comes across. Certainly, yeah.
- [09:29]
C
I mean, I do wonder around what the motivation is with William Sonoma here because as you said, I think maybe this could be tied into this idea that William Sonoma really wants to define itself as a high end retailer. And any association with these tawdry dupe merchants is bad for their brand. And so maybe they're trying to climb the luxury mountain as it seems like everybody is these days. That could be one thing. It's also possibly just sort of like a company culture thing. I think William Sonoma just does not like this and clearly their executives are sort of disgusted by this whole thing. And maybe this is kind of about trying to prove a point in the marketplace. I have to suspect that they settled with dupe.com out of court. We don't know exactly what the arrangement was made. I did look@dupe.com's Instagram page recently and there was nary a reference to Williams Sonoma brands on their Instagram feed. So maybe, my guess is maybe they worked out some arrangement where dupe.com is not going to. They're going to keep doing their thing, but they're not going to talk about Williams Sonoma brands. Maybe they're hoping the same thing happens here with Quince is that Quince is free to make its dupes, just don't do dupes of us. You know what I mean? I don't know. It's a complicated game happening on many different levels here as we talked about last week. I just think it's sort of like all these brands, it feels a little bit like fighting a losing game against dupes. This lawsuit, they may settle, they may win, they may lose. It doesn't feel like it will stem the tide of the general consumer's desire to have the look for less. That just feels like such a dominant thing in culture right now. And I think brands have to position themselves against that, not think that a lawsuit or something's gonna make it go away. You know what I mean?
- [11:04]
A
I do. And I feel to your point, the horses left the barn. And what I find so interesting is when I talk to designers and others about all of this, there's the clear recognition that whether you're buying something through dupe.com or you're buying something on quints. And I discovered that many a designer has a cashmere sweater from Quints, but they went into the purchase knowing full well that they were likely going to be getting a far less superior product than if they had spent several hundred dollars more. But it was worth it to them, A, just to see what it was like and B, to have a hundred dollar cashmere sweater and why not? And get them in every color and sure. And so I think the point was they don't think they're getting the same quality product. And I think more and more we're seeing people willing to settle for the less. And I think that's the big concern that all of these higher end companies have is just again, that chipping away. How many people will say, oh, you're right, I don't need a $5,000 sofa. I'm perfectly happy with $1,000 one.
- [12:07]
C
Yeah. I think that's the big challenge of this time is to sort of create a proposition that cuts through the dupe noise and demonstrates to people this is why you should spend the $5,000 or the $10,000. I just think it's tough because I think complaining to consumers that this is unfair, that this is IP theft, I think just doesn't resonate the way maybe it used to. I don't think there's as much of a stigma around knockoffs as there once was. That doesn't seem to work. So I really do think high end brands have their work cut out for them. I think there always is going to be a market at the very top end. But I think getting beyond that is a real challenge right now. And if I had the solution for it, I would not be a podcaster, I'd be a consultant making millions. But I know that that is a challenge and I hope someone will solve it.
- [12:50]
A
Well. And I think we talked about as last time we talked about dupe.com, i think the challenge on all these brands is continuing to be innovative in their design and whether that's great collaborations like what Pearson Ward did with West Elm or bringing other people on to just make the product even more special. Because I think what Williams Sonoma is seeing is that people are willing to settle for less. So you better have a really exciting product to offer to keep them there. And I think that's the challenge for the industry as a whole. Moving on, we're going to talk about Stark, who may also be trying to climb the luxury mountain here. Fred, the floor covering brand has gone shopping, acquiring ultra high end atelier Fort Street Studio Company that we had on the show a few years back with the original founders. Great great artists and high end rug merchants. What do you think?
- [13:42]
C
Fred? I think BOH podcast alumni are doing great things, including you know, Stark CEO Chad Stark, who we've had on the show show at least once. Yeah, this was an interesting deal. I guess we should maybe define exactly what Fort Street Studio is. As you mentioned in the intro, it's a very, very high end sort of small rug studio founded by these two artists in the 90s and they specialized or their claim to fame early on was this very luxurious silk rug made in China with this wild silk, very hard to get. Extremely luxurious. You're talking about rugs that range into the tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars, sometimes even cracking just above that for certain rugs. That's the rumor anyway. This is a company at the very, very tippy top of the industry. I think that's why Stark wanted to buy it. I think there was this element of Stark is certainly a high end company. And I think that in some markets, Chad told me that they are the kind of highest end option. You get into New York and la, where there's a real range ranging from very affordable options all the way up to these, these very tippy top ateliers and boutiques. And I think Stark is a little bit below that. So I think Chad was hoping that this acquisition would help clarify what Stark can offer to the very, very thin slice at the very, very tip top of the market. That was my impression anyway.
- [15:01]
A
Yeah, that certainly is my impression as well. And I think that this was also very much an artist driven brand in the early days. This was taking Janice's art and saying, how can we work with craftspeople and artisans to create this artwork in silk and make it a rug? And so it's a really special heritage brand that won a lot of adoration from high end designers. And I think it's a little jewel for Stark. So I think it'll be interesting to see how they manage the legacy brand and incorporate it into what they do.
- [15:45]
C
Yeah, I mean, that's really the challenge, right? It's like you have a really big company that operates in various ways across different sectors of the market. They buy this little jewel, what do they do with it and how do they maintain what made it special while also taking advantage of what it does for the rest of their business? I know they want to open a new showroom focused around Fort Street Studio. I'm not at liberty to say exactly where that showroom will be, but I think listeners could probably put two and two together, get an idea. Anyway, that's another reason I think they wanted to buy the company was to have another presence in New York. I think they're going to roll it out slowly. Chad in our interview was saying it'll take at least six months to a year to really roll out Fort street to their sales reps. I'm sure they want to keep developing new product. It'll take time to see what they do with it. It's worked before. I think maybe something like Clarence House and Fabricut. You have a much bigger company buying something that's really known to very high end designers. You have to see how the pieces fit together. One question I had looking at this was why did Ford street want to sell? It was originally started by Brad Davis and Janice Provisor. We had them on the show that they sold to their vp, Paul Mello, who's the one who's now selling the company to Stark. I'm sure the tariffs have been really annoying over the past few years to deal with. We should probably talk about this directly with Paul. But I have to imagine even if you're operating at the very high end of the market, all those challenges of moving your, you know, production and dealing with this complicated geopolitical situation are probably a real drag. And, you know, maybe when someone comes along with the right offer, it's just, it's tempting to, you know, get out of the rug, production, shifting, rat race and make a deal. I don't know.
- [17:29]
A
As you say, we should talk to Paul at some point, but I am sure don't want to speak for Paul, but I'm guessing if he was here now, he'd be high fiving. Start taking over some of the headaches.
- [17:41]
C
Exactly. And I think this actually ties into our first story. Just talking about, like it's all about that luxury mountain right now. It really is about, you know, I think people perceive that, you know, the middle of the market has softened a great deal. You know, the housing is frozen, all the things we always talk about on this show, but the very top is still spending money. That's where the, you know, the dry ground is right now. And everyone is rushing up that hill to try and, you know, to try and find that sweet spot. And I think Stark, you know, is, is a big, healthy, strong company, but they want to operate up there too, because they know that there's a lot of strength up there. I think about this for designers too. It's difficult. It's no easy feat just to level up your clients with a snap of a finger. I don't know. It's a long term journey. It takes time. But I think that designers would do well to think about how they can make that change in their own business. Because you see these brands making moves and that's what's behind it.
- [18:34]
A
That is a constant message we are driving home on the show. Hey, speaking of high end, should we talk about first dibs?
- [18:41]
C
Let's talk about firstdibs. The platform has revised a controversial AI powered pricing tool after vendors revolted. But did they change it because of that or because we talked about it on the show? In all sincerity, it was not because we talked about it on the show, but we did bring this up a few weeks ago. And almost immediately it seems like first dibs has rolled back this thing that was getting their vendors tied up in a knot. What'd you make of this?
- [19:08]
A
Well, once again, I feel that FirstDibs, every move they make, they face vendor pushback. So I think it's very hard for them to implement changes. But we should explain what this tool was and why people did get upset about it.
- [19:28]
C
Let's explain it. So last year, FirstDibs rolled out a tool called their FirstDibs Price Estimate. The way it would work is you'd see, like, an Eames lounge chair, for example, and the dealer would give their price, and FirstDibs would have right underneath it, there would be a little range of prices. So let's say the dealer said this is $4,000. First dibs might have an estimate saying similar pieces have sold between $3,000 and $8,000. They'd look at their past sales data and use machine learning and come up with a range for what they felt was a reasonable price for what this was actually worth. And as you can imagine, that got some people upset because, of course, dealers are thinking, well, my price is my price. Why is the platform that I'm selling on giving information that seems weird? It occasionally led to weird errors. I think when they first rolled it out, sometimes it undercut the price by 20 grand because it didn't totally understand what the product was. They fixed a lot of those problems that they've been rolling out over the course of the past year. But I think while it maybe made some vintage and antique dealers a little bit annoyed or at least gave them pause, I think for sellers of new stuff, it really raised a red flag, because you think, I'm the maker of. Of, let's say, Windsor chairs. I have my price. It's $5,000 for this chair. Why is the platform I'm selling on giving a different price for a new good that I designed, that I priced out? It's like if you walked into Walgreens and it was like, crest thinks this toothpaste is worth $6, but Walgreens says 5 to 8. So if you want to make a deal, it created kind of a little bit of an absurd moment for a lot of the sellers, and that's what caused this anger. And now, First Dibs is rolling back this estimator tool for, you know, the seller of new goods. It's still up there for antiques and vintage, but they're pulling it back for. For new stuff.
- [21:15]
A
So does this speak to, first of all, the. The challenge of these AI driven tools? Because I am. I am skeptical at the moment, having used several different similar tools to this and found lots of flaws with them. I'm skeptical about where we are or how ready these are for primetime. So is part of the issue here that it's just an AI driven tool? And yes, it's made some mistakes and still needs some work. But is it also about the fact that they are trying to provide more helpful information and that's a good thing? I mean, how should we be looking at this?
- [21:53]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think both those takes are right. I mean, to give first Dibs some credit. I mean, I think what they're trying to do is solve a real problem when it comes to selling high end home goods online. And this is the problem that everybody has to deal with. This is true of foreign firstdibs. This is true of paragould, this is true of RH. It's that like a $20,000 table doesn't look any better than a $2,000 table online. It's very difficult to convey the value of a very highly priced home good on the Internet. And I think what FirstDibs thought is if we give people a price range that puts them in the ballpark, we kind of anchor the consumer's expectation around what this is really worth. So it almost, I'm sure when they were conceiving of it, they were thinking of, of we're validating the dealer price. We're not trying to undercut it. We're giving the customer a sense that yes, according to our internal data, this is a reasonable price. Even if it's high, this is reasonable. Interestingly enough, Caroline, who wrote the article about this for Business of Home, spoke to their chief product officer and he was saying that this tool actually is effective. I think it was 42% more likely to lead to a sell through was the number that they had. So clearly this was a tool done for the benefit of the consumer. They thought it would benefit dealers. And there was some knock on effect that was positive. But I think it just leads to these absurdities where people feel almost disrespected by the platform. So I think that's kind of where the rubber meets the road. I don't think that it was the AI is so broken. I think it's just it almost as it rubs people the wrong way. But maybe that's too simplistic. What do you think?
- [23:20]
A
It doesn't take much to rub people the wrong way in terms of the vendors on first dibs. I think that they have for a long time felt under fire, under pressure and I get it. And ever since they Made that transition to be E Commerce. I think it's always been that way. I think interestingly, and I was talking to several people in the real estate world recently, this seemed so similar to me. Like the comp sale discussion that you always have in real estate. Realtors tell you, yeah, well, forget about the zestimate. They say, look around your neighborhood, see what prices have sold for. And that gives you a pretty good idea of what's a reasonable starting point.
- [23:58]
B
For your home price.
- [23:59]
A
And that seemed to be what this tool was somehow trying to do, was trying to give you some, some comparable sales data. Things like this have sold for X. But I think to the point of vendors getting upset. And Justin Nelson from Fernway, who was one of the people who took to social media and sort of expressed his displeasure most clearly and vocally and said he was leaving the site altogether. He felt like, well, this is a brand new piece. What do you mean you haven't sold anything like this? Because I mean, I just made this like, what are you talking about? And that's, that's what upset him so much. And so I get it. And that's why again, is it that they were just applying the tool to the wrong kind of merchandise on the site or was the AI just miscalculating or misunderstanding? And that's why it seems smart that they dialed it back to work out whatever the kinks or at least the perception challenges are.
- [24:55]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think that's all really well taken and I understand what First Tips was trying to do and I understand why it made people angry. I don't know. Justin was mentioning on his Instagram that he had to direct a conversation with First Dibs CMO and the guy heard him out. And maybe this is the beginning of a new day in terms of their communication with vendors, but it is. This kind of fascinating example of FirstDibs also spends untold millions on marketing. It's not like they're not trying to deliver for vendors, but it's just these little things keep coming. Every time they change something, there's some new drama. And I sort of feel like this is only the latest in a long time, long series of skirmishes and we'll probably be talking about another one next year, but who knows?
- [25:33]
A
Well, and the poor CMO hasn't been in his position very long and he's got to deal with this right out of the gate. So I mean, I have sympathy for him and I know it's always a bit of a struggle, but I do think that again, I can understand the intention of where this was trying to go. And clearly it was helping some people. And as you and I were talking about before we came on the air, it's another reminder that First Dibs is trying to reach a lot of consumers who aren't necessarily well informed designers who might not know everything there is to know about many of the products that they sell and could use some help and could use some tools to help them understand how to think about the cost and the value. So we'll see what the next iteration looks like and where it goes. But in the meantime, Fred, we've got to move on to talk about one of our hot button issues, tariffs. But it's not gonna be the same old tariff conversation.
- [26:31]
C
Don't worry, everyone.
- [26:32]
A
We're not gonna go hot and heavy into tariffs. But Fred, last week you wrote for the Business of Home a feature exploring how tariffs may be having an impact on style. What did you find?
- [26:43]
C
I feel like this is not very kind to our 10 Thanksgiving listeners to make them listen to a tariff conversation. But yeah, I did write this sort of typically too long article about how tariffs have an impact on style. In some ways, this was really an excuse for to dive deep into the history books and look at past examples of this. There was one that really jumped out at me that I actually didn't write about in the article. It's too complicated. But let's roll it back to the 18th century, Dennis. That's what listeners really come to us for. At the time, there was this very young prime minister named William Pitt the Younger. And in England at the time, there was 115% tariff on tea. Does that sound familiar coming from China? And at the time, it was so expensive, they basically, the country was just completely awash and smuggled tea. It was like most of the tea in England was smuggled and therefore not tariffed. So what he did was he lowered the tariff to, I think it was like 12%, which allowed it to come into the country legally. And it also opened up so much more trade with China. And so as a byproduct of that, you had so much more porcelain, so much more silks, so much more design stuff from coming in China. It really sort of fueled the boom of Chinese motifs and design looks being popular in England. So really helped kind of like define British style of the period. Now there's a reverse on this. In order to make up the revenue from the tea tax, he started taxing windows. So basically it was like a property tax. So people, of course, wisely started boarding up their windows and creating these very gloomy homes. So it's just very strange kind of thing of like, you just change one tax policy and you end up completely changing the look of British style and changing architecture by having these, like, incredibly dark British homes that really define the era. So there's all kinds of fun examples like that throughout history. And I was thinking, well, we're in the middle of a period of a lot of change and the tax and tariff and global trade landscape, what impact is that going to have on the look of today?
- [28:41]
A
Okay, Ken Burns, so bring it home for us. How is this going to play out?
- [28:46]
C
Yeah, well, history is hard to write while you're inside of it. I was looking for some really fun example, like people boarding up their windows. I was not able to find that. But I do think there's a few basic takeaways like, so over the past year, everyone who develops product at the companies that we talk about all the time has been so consumed by trying to figure out how to make their existing selection work from a price point perspective. It's like every product team has had their total lives taken up by how can we figure out how to rejigger our supply chain to make what we already make at a reasonable price point? So as a result, they're not spending time on developing new product, or they're not spending as much time on developing new products. So I think in some ways, like, the biggest takeaway from this time is that I think at High Point market next year, or just hitting the market in general, you will see less new stuff, especially from American companies. And I think what you will see is going to be much more simple because you got a tax on aluminum, you got a tax on steel, you got a tax out of some country, tax out of another country. It's going to push people into opting for something that they know they can pull off, and I think that will result in a simpler look. That was the takeaway I got from talking to a lot of people who, who look at this kind of stuff. What do you make of that?
- [29:58]
A
That was certainly a conversation that I had with multiple people at High Point. It was as though there was a different kind of committee that was involved in the design decision these days. Okay, can we bring in the tariff department now? Because we need to clear this with them. You know, we've got the design here, we've got all these exciting ideas, we've got all these great drawings, and we're thrilled to move forward, but. Oh, no. Oh, the tariff team says we can't do any of that. And we need to. Yeah, I mean, so I do think that's real and I do think that companies were saying, sure, we're probably gonna be introducing less product overall because we gotta just dial that cost back. But also, yeah, if there were five, six different countries where all this stuff was coming from. Simplify that. You know, we gotta have a three country maximum on that product, right?
- [30:50]
C
No, for real. It's very real. You know, I was talking to a guy who's like, yeah, we had this ottoman that was like upholstered and had aluminum and steel and it had teak. And he was like, yeah, we're not doing that any. It just makes it far too expensive. I think that's maybe not quite as satisfying as boarding up your windows. But I do think you will see a simplicity in the next year. The other one is maybe not so surprising, but just there's this big tariff on upholstery that's set to go up to 30% by the end of the year. The general takeaway I got from that is that people aren't going to stop making sofas because of that. But you will see situations in which which something that might have been upholstered before will not be simply to avoid that tariff. You take a bar stool. Now, if that is going to carry an additional 30% tariff, there'll be an inclination towards, okay, let's just make it a wood surface. That's fine. Same thing with dining room chairs. Dining room chairs that are upholstered will be a little bit more expensive. I think people may try and explore more bare seating options just to get the look and the quality they want for a more reasonable price point. I don't think it's going to be night and day, but I do think you will see, see things that previously would have been upholstered will be less upholstered. So I don't know if that's a radical shift, but that was something that several people told me.
- [32:02]
A
It's a very upsetting thought going into Thanksgiving, Fred, to think about a less comfortable dining chair. And I hate to think about that. I think it was interesting talking to so many designers about this issue of how the tariffs might impact their design choices. Many of them said to me, I will be sad if we are forced to try and find the American alternative to this or that because it will just be so much less expensive when obviously some of these different countries around the world specialize in making these beautiful things. And it will neutralize design in a way that they didn't welcome. And I hate to think of that being one of the impacts from this.
- [32:51]
C
Yeah, I mean, it's complicated because I think probably the same designers would also say that it's good to have American manufacturing. So I think the risk is just sort of dulling down the palette of design by cutting off countries or. So many people said design is a global conversation, or it certainly has become a global conversation. And it seems a little bit of a pity to stifle that. It's interesting though, coming into this story. You're looking at history and I could tell you many more examples from the 18th century, Dennis, if you'd like. But you see all these examples where there was some material that was cut off by a war or there was. It feels like in the present moment, now the trade is so globalized, people can move production from one country to the other. There's so much more access to materials. I almost wonder to some degree if no matter what change is made to global trade, barring something truly catastrophic, it feels like aesthetics will shift for other reasons. Less so because of, oh, we can't get teak or we can't get marble. I mean, I think we've just. We're in a different era.
- [33:54]
A
Well. And we live in a country that is so prosperous and we are so fortunate that to your point, your client can have whatever the heck they want from wherever. And so if you're willing to spend the money, the world is your oyster like never before.
- [34:10]
C
Yes, that's a great point.
- [34:11]
B
Right.
- [34:12]
A
And so I think the question is, are people going to be willing to pay for it? And it'll be interesting to see what reaches the level of even the well to do aren't willing to pay that high a price for it. Will we see an area that stands out from that perspective that will be most interesting to see from a long term impact of tariffs perspective. Will there be some things that people just feel like, yeah, you're right, I don't need that Italian marble or I don't need whatever it is, is what will just be something that will just be too much. I hope it's not upholstered dining chairs, Fred, because that's.
- [34:48]
C
Yes, we need those.
- [34:50]
A
Right. That's just too important.
- [34:51]
C
Can we have nothing?
- [34:53]
A
Exactly. Is nothing precious anymore? All right, that's it for the news. But there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including a guide to Miami Art and Design Week and advice from.
- [35:04]
B
Gail Dobie on avoiding burnout.
- [35:06]
A
We'll be back in a Minute.
- [35:07]
B
But first, a quick break. Introducing the iCoult designer loyalty program, now with new benefits to enjoy starting in 2026. More than a discount, it's an elevated partnership offering exclusive pricing, flexible shipping advantages, early access to new collections, and personalized design support to help trade professionals grow with confidence and ease. Join the program and discover the benefits of partnership@icolts.com that's E I C H O L T Z.com Windows and Doors might not be the flashiest part of a design project, but they can completely change the look and feel of a space. And when you're working with a trusted name like Renewal by Andersen, you know it's done right. Their interior designer loyalty program connects you with a dedicated expert who manages every detail so you can focus on your creative vision while earning exclusive rewards and trade discounts. It's smart, simple, and saves you time on every project. Plus could be an additional revenue stream for your business. Apply today at renewalbyandersondesigner.com Terms and conditions apply.
- [36:38]
A
And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye. Fred, what caught your eye?
- [36:45]
C
It's holiday shopping time. Dennis, have you got your list going? How? What am I getting this year? What kind of am I getting? A fancy mic or maybe in a upholstered podcasting chair? Yeah, no, it is time to buy the gifts that you need to buy. And what better place to buy them than Field and Supply's new holiday market? You know, I'm a big fan of what Brad Ford, the designer, has done with Field and Supply. I love going there when I can, but it's sometimes tough for us New Yorkers to get up to Kingston where it's held. So they're having a holiday market in maybe Dennis, your least favorite building, this Tara Lei building.
- [37:20]
A
I didn't want to say. Fred, go ahead. The sturdily high building.
- [37:23]
C
Short, but it is cool to have Field Supply in the city for the holidays. It's December 6th and 7th, so if you need something really cool, a maker gift, something a little unexpected, that will be a fun event. And Brad always throws a good party, so I'm sure there'll be elements of that as well, too. So get the there. The other thing I noticed was food 52. There's a story in the ad week that apparently they're exploring a sale. Kind of maybe not exactly a shock there. There's been kind of years of revenue decline as the reporting, sometimes our own reporting has shown. And it's possible that they will be selling this business. It wasn't clear to me what exactly that meant whether they would be holding on to Schoolhouse and Dance or breaking it all up and selling it all to the highest bidder. I suspect that's probably more likely. But I don't know. You know, it's kind of sad. Like we had Meryl and Amanda, the founders of Food52 on the podcast at least once or twice. It was a really cool business and it just seems like they just hit so many roadblocks and you know, maybe it can find, you know, a happier period with a new owner. You know, nothing set in stone, but it does, it does seem likely based on the reporting. What'd you make of that?
- [38:27]
A
Yeah, I was really sad about it. As you say, we had Amanda and Meryl on the show in what I think was the, was the peak. As it turned out, they just gotten old.
- [38:35]
C
The exact peak was the appearance on our podcast.
- [38:38]
A
It was the moment to celebrate. They had just gotten all that new and investment. They were some hundred million dollar company.
- [38:45]
C
More than 100 million.
- [38:46]
A
Yeah, it was, it was a huge valuation and, and they were, and they were the queens of media and, and I was so happy for them. And I've always been a huge Food52 fan and there's some, there's some great products. Yeah, I mean the, the Scully family kitchen is adorned with many a Food52 product. So I'm, I'm sad to see and Schoolhouse and Date and many of the brands got acquired along the way. You know, I, I, I, I hope for the best. I'm sure we'll be talking about it more in the future. But I was, I was sorry to see about what's happened there.
- [39:21]
C
Yeah, knock on wood. Hope, Hope it all, hope it all pans out for the best. What caught your eye this week, Dennis?
- [39:26]
A
Well, Fred, I know that usually you are calling out the sub stacks but, but I wanted to, I wanted to give a shout out to, to longtime friend of the show Michael Boudreau who is along with editorial friend Kate Betts launching a substack that, that we might, we might have to have a little bit of a discussion about because the substack is, is called Editors at Large. Listeners might not know but Business of Home was once Editor at Large. And I just hope he doesn't have any orange in his logo. Go or I hope, I don't know. I mean I'm not saying Our lawyers are calling him about this, but I just want to say that editors at large, sure, I guess that's different enough. But no, I was excited about this and excited for him. He. He stressed the fact that he's going to be coming out with some. Some strong takes, some strong opinions. So I'm. I'm eager to hear what. What Michael Boudreau's hot takes are on Substack. I feel.
- [40:27]
B
I feel Substack seems freeing for people.
- [40:29]
A
To become more outspoken.
- [40:31]
C
Right. Michael Boudreau is a sharp guy with great takes. And, you know, sometimes those. Those great takes are off the record. I've experienced in the past. Maybe some of them can be on the record. I think it's. I think it's wonderful. I mean, I. I feel like there has been this impetus recently, and people trying to come out and be a little more, you know, controversial and say how they really feel. I mean, even, you know, World of Interiors has that column, and Dezeen is publishing a list of the 10 things that are wrong with the industry, and people are complaining, and I'm happy, is what I'm saying here. Dennis. No, I think it's great. I love Michael Boudreau, and I'm excited to see what he read, what he writes on Substack. I feel like the substack revolution has really, really taken off. I feel like every, you know, every week, there's some cool new person starting one. The design industry. It's really becoming a, you know, a robust ecosystem. And I think that's. I think that's all to the good.
- [41:13]
A
It's getting hard to keep up with them all, frankly. But I'm. I'm. I'm excited for Michael, who, as you say, I. I know, has really smart things to say. So I. I'm really looking forward to that. Congratulations, Michael. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with.
- [41:30]
B
The latest news, browse job listings or.
- [41:32]
A
Take a workshop, visit us online@businessofhome.com if you want to get in touch with the show, write to us@podcastsusinessofhome.com this episode was produced by Fred Nicholas and Carol Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great Thanksgiving, and we'll be.
- [41:50]
B
Back with you on Monday.