The Thursday Show: Will your next client come from ChatGPT? Plus: Legendary industry analyst Jerry Epperson on the state of the furniture business

Summary

Business of Home Podcast - Episode Summary

Title: The Thursday Show: Will your next client come from ChatGPT? Plus: Legendary industry analyst Jerry Epperson on the state of the furniture business
Host: Dennis Scully
Release Date: June 12, 2025

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Introduction and News Roundup

Dennis Scully kicks off the episode by welcoming Fred Nicholas, Business of Home's executive editor. They discuss recent developments, including Schumacher's acquisition of Tillett Textiles and emerging trends within the interior design community.

• Trip to London & The WOW House:
  Dennis shares his excitement about the "WOW House" at Chelsea Harbor Design Center, praising the intricate design and inclusion of exterior gardens. He remarks, "There are landscape architects and a full facade, and there are incredibly detailed rooms, and it's really remarkable" (01:07).

• Recap of Previous Episode with Kim Skodrow:
  Fred reflects on their conversation with Chicago designer Kim Skodrow, highlighting her emphasis on kindness and practical business strategies. Dennis adds, "...she learned to charge what she was really worth. And that is often a transition that designers have to make" (02:36).

Major Industry News

• Schumacher Acquires Tillett Textiles:
  Fred announces Schumacher's acquisition of Tillett Textiles, a Massachusetts-based fabric house founded in 1946. Dennis expresses his enthusiasm, referencing Jackie Kennedy Onassis's admiration for the brand: "I think there was actually a letter from Jackie Kennedy at the time when Albert Hadley was working on the residence at the White House and she was referring to Tillett Textiles" (05:14).
  Fred speculates on Schumacher's motives, noting the trend of consolidation in the fabric industry: "I think this is a sign of things to come... it's harder and harder to make it work on your own" (09:33).

• Vesta's Acquisition of Krista and Home:
  The discussion shifts to Vesta Home's unexpected acquisition of South Florida design firm Krista and Home. Fred analyzes Vesta's strategic moves, suggesting it as an experimental investment rather than a trendsetter: "This may be just another experiment from the designer's perspective...an interesting potential buyer that I'd never really thought of" (17:39).

• Summer Thornton's Expansion:
  Summer Thornton doubles her portfolio with a new property, Meadow House in Michigan, following the success of her vacation home in Mexico, Casa Rosada. Dennis remarks on the strategic marketing aspect: "It's also a marketing opportunity... everything they do is both a business opportunity and a marketing opportunity" (21:32).

Emerging Trends

• Rise of the Dog Room:
  Fred and Dennis delve into the growing trend of luxury spaces dedicated to pets. They share anecdotes about incorporating pet-friendly designs without compromising on style. Dennis humorously notes how performance fabrics are partly driven by the desire for pet-friendly homes: "...they say it's about spilling red wine, but really it's our dogs coming onto the sofa" (27:27).

ChatGPT and Client Acquisition

Fred discusses his feature on designers optimizing their websites for discovery by AI chatbots like ChatGPT. He shares insights from a 2023 anecdote where a designer received a lead from ChatGPT and how this trend has significantly grown over the past two years.

• Impact on Designers:
  "Designers are absolutely getting work through ChatGPT searches... it's getting more common by the day" (10:13). Fred emphasizes the importance of niche marketing to enhance visibility in AI-powered searches: "...highlight exactly what you do. It's obviously not perfect, but it's more likely to deliver a good match" (13:32).

• Broader Implications:
  Dennis adds context about OpenAI's rapid growth, highlighting the importance for designers to engage with AI tools: "OpenAI has already reached $10 billion in revenue... everyone should be diving in and understanding them" (16:04).

Interview with Jerry Epperson: State of the Furniture Business

Dennis welcomes Jerry Epperson, a veteran furniture industry analyst, to discuss the current state and future prospects of the furniture business.

• Industry Overview and Challenges: (32:19)
  Jerry provides a historical perspective, noting a slump in the furniture industry over the past few years due to post-pandemic consumer behavior. "The last three years in particular for furniture have been really tough..."
  He emphasizes the importance of lower interest rates and increased housing construction to revitalize the market.

• Globalization and Manufacturing Trends: (43:16)
  Jerry critiques recent tariff announcements aimed at bringing manufacturing back to the U.S., deeming them unrealistic. He explains the dominance of imported furniture, with "some 85-90% of all wood furniture sold in the United States is imported" and differentiates between mass-produced and custom upholstery markets.

• Role of Interior Designers: (49:07)
  Highlighting the significant presence of interior designers at high-point markets, Jerry underscores their vital role in introducing innovation and catering to niche markets: "Designers fulfill a job that they see things in the marketplace that there's no reason for many consumers to see."

• Future Outlook and Innovations: (52:40)
  Jerry is optimistic about future innovations driving industry growth, such as power-motion outdoor furniture, which could revolutionize personalization and comfort in both indoor and outdoor settings.

Concluding Highlights and Industry Insights

• Tariff Impacts and Consumer Price Index:
  Fred discusses the recent drop in the consumer price index, questioning whether it's due to stable pricing or inventory levels. "Furniture inflation is not out of control... slightly good news" (61:09).

• Matt Sanders' Rug Burn Show:
  A lighthearted mention of former guest Matt Sanders launching an NC17 show, "Rug Burn", at the LA and Edinburgh Fringe Festivals, adding a touch of humor to the episode.

• Recommendations for Listeners:
  Fred and Dennis share favorite industry accounts and podcasts, including Mary Orton's design stories and the Middlebrow podcast featuring David Michon.

• Upcoming Topics:
  Dennis hints at next week's focus on RH's earnings, promising detailed analysis with Caitlin.

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Notable Quotes

• Dennis Scully on the WOW House:
  "There are landscape architects and a full facade, and there are incredibly detailed rooms, and it's really remarkable" (01:07).

• Fred Nicholas on ChatGPT Leads:
  "Designers are absolutely getting work through ChatGPT searches..." (10:13).

• Jerry Epperson on Industry Slump:
  "The last three years in particular for furniture have been really tough..." (32:19).

• Jerry Epperson on the Future of Furniture Manufacturing:
  "Wood furniture... somewhere between 85 and 90% of all wood furniture sold in the United States is imported." (46:10).

• Fred Nicholas on Pet-Friendly Design:
  "They say it's about spilling red wine, but really it's our dogs coming onto the sofa" (27:27).

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Conclusion

Dennis and Fred provide a comprehensive overview of current events, trends, and challenges in the interior design and furniture industries. The episode underscores the growing influence of AI in client acquisition, the impact of industry consolidations, and the evolving role of interior designers in shaping market dynamics. The in-depth interview with Jerry Epperson offers valuable insights into the future trajectory of the furniture business, emphasizing the need for innovation and adaptability in a rapidly changing global landscape.

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For more details and to stay updated with the latest in interior design, visit businessofhome.com.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, introductory remarks, and concluding segments that do not pertain to the core content of the podcast.

Transcript

[Dennis Scully]

This is Business of Home. I'm Dennis Scully, and welcome to the Thursday Show. Later on, I'll be talking to veteran furniture industry analyst Jerry Epperson. But first, we're going to catch up on the news, including Schumacher's recent acquisition, how Designers are Gaming, ChatGPT, and the Rise of the dog Room. To do all that, I'm joined by Business of Homes executive editor Fred Nicholas. Hi, Fred.

[Fred Nicholas]

Hi, Dennis. Good to have you back. How you doing?

[Dennis Scully]

Did you miss me while I was gone, Fred?

[Fred Nicholas]

Of course. It's hard to read that intro. No one does it like you. Dennis, how was your trip?

[Dennis Scully]

Spectacular trip to London, I gotta say. Shout out to all the designers who worked on the wow. House. They outdid themselves this year.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yeah, it's funny, I feel like asking you how things went in London is gonna make listeners think we're in some sort of Groundhog Day trap, because it's like every week you're off to London again. Well, so the wow House, just briefly, is a design center showhouse, but it's. Well, I just kind of said what it is. It's a showhouse inside a design center, right?

[Dennis Scully]

Yes. Well, and I know many of the listeners have probably been to the design center Chelsea harbor, but it's a spectacular design center, thriving, I want to point out. But also what is remarkable about the show house is, yes, it is an artificial space that is created in a huge hallway in a design center. And yet there are landscape architects and there is a full facade, and there, there are incredibly detailed rooms, and it's really remarkable. And in fact, this year, there are also exterior gardens as part of it. So, yeah, it's really great.

[Fred Nicholas]

Interior, exterior gardens. Nice. Maybe that's the way forward for Charles Cohen. Let's quickly look back on Monday's episode, a conversation with Chicago designer Kim Scodrow. Dennis, what'd you think?

[Dennis Scully]

Kim Skodrow. So funny enough, Kim Skodrow in the conversation tells the story of getting to be alone in Marriott Himes Gomez's room at High Point. And I got to be alone with Kim Skodrow in her room at High Point.

[Fred Nicholas]

Did you get some good advice?

[Dennis Scully]

You know, I fell pretty hard for Kim Skodrow when I chatted with her about her fabulous collection for hickory chair, but also just how she first got into the industry. How often do we have a former Home EC instructor on the show to talk to us about making that transition a great conversation? She's all about kindness and hard work, and there's just so much to like.

[Fred Nicholas]

What did you think yeah, it's funny. Caitlin and I had a conversation about the Midwestern design scene last week, and I feel like, what better guest to represent what's so great about designers from the Midwest than Kim Skodrow? It was funny. I was just slacking with Caitlin. She's in Chicago this week and she was saying designers at the design Social were coming up and saying, like, yes, like Kim Skodrow. That's what the Midwestern spirit, like, you can go far with kindness. And I mean, you know, married her high school sweetheart, home EC teacher, you know, what more do you want? But, you know, lots of great little business takeaways as well. I loved her thoughts on, like, why designers maybe shouldn't have a project minimum that they stick to. Really hardcore. She's very candid about that. Very charming person. Just a really fun conversation, top to bottom.

[Dennis Scully]

No, I agree. Another thing that I loved in the conversation, there was a don't tell Sean moment. A nod to our. A nod to our Sean Lowe and his column, which. Which I thought was great that everyone would understand that. Yeah, don't tell Sean that I'm not always following his. But I loved that reference as well. And it was interesting to hear her talk about how she learned to charge what she was really worth. And that is often a transition that designers have to make. So, yes, there's a lot of good stuff in there. Gosh, I'm glad to be back, Fred. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll get into the news. This podcast is sponsored by Laloy, maker of rugs, pillows, and wall art for the thoughtfully layered home. This spring, laloy launched a new collaboration with beloved interior designer Jeremiah Brent. Featuring rugs and pillows with rich textures, bold lines, and deep tones, each collection is designed with a visionary outlook that encourages everyone to carve their own path. See them [e-mail] that's L-O L-O I rugs.com and follow along on Instagram and TikTok at Laloi Rugs. And we're back. First up, Fred Schumacher made an acquisition.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yes. The design company announced this week that it had acquired Tillett Textiles, a Massachusetts based fabric house originally founded in 1946. Dennis, did you know what Tillet Textiles was? Were you a fan?

[Dennis Scully]

I was a fan of Tillet, and I was so glad to learn about this acquisition. I know that Jackie Kennedy Onassis was a big fan and so were a lot of the Parrish Hadley folks back in the. In the day. So I was glad to Hear that? This company will continue.

[Fred Nicholas]

A favorite of the Upper east side.

[Dennis Scully]

Set, to be sure my people.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yes, exactly right. Yeah. Well, till it was a really. I mean, it still exists, of course, but Tillet is a cool company and it was fun. Founded by this very cool couple, Dede and Leslie Tillett. Started in the 1940s, went through all these different chapters, had all these different interesting stops along the way. It was never, I don't think, a particularly big fabric company. They did have a manufacturing facility in Massachusetts, but I got the feeling it was a sort of artisanal hand printed textile situation, not like an enormous factory. When Schumacher bought it, I think they're transferring over production to their side of the table. So this isn't an enormous company, but it's a very cool one. The second you look at their fabrics, you're like, okay, yeah, that's a fit for Schumacher. Like very lively, vibrant prints that feel of a piece with what Schumacher does.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, exactly. And again, I think the history here, I referenced Jackie Onassis and there was actually a letter from Jackie Kennedy at the time when Albert Hadley was working on the residence at the White House and she was referring to Tillett Textiles. Worth buying the company just to get that letter from the archives as far as I'm concerned. So well done, Timor. But yeah, I mean, I think it was one of these companies that a group of people knew about and were fans of and admired. So again, I'm glad that it continues. It's interesting to see another Schumacher acquisition.

[Fred Nicholas]

I mean, I think why Tillett wanted to sell. I do think in this day and age it's increasingly hard to run a small textile house, especially one that does hand printed textile. We just talked a few weeks ago about the closure of a hand printed textile facility. I think the costs are going up and the market isn't necessarily getting any bigger. It's not any easier to do business. I understand those pressures. I also think in the case of Tillet, there's some family stuff. I was reading a New York Times profile. It was, I think the step grandson of the original founder restarted the company in 2016. It's very complicated. There was a little bit some sort of family dispute alluded to in this Times article, and I'm sure that didn't make things easier. But why did Schumacher want to buy? I actually think it's insane. Some ways more interesting just because Schumacher is not like a. They don't buy a ton of little fabric companies. That's more of a Kravit move. Kravet has bought a lot of small fabric houses sort of opportunistically over the past couple decades. Schumacher's last acquisition was actually backdrop in 2021, the cool direct to consumer paint company. So it's sort of interesting that they're doing this. I don't know. I know we're going to have Timur Yuma Sakla Schumacher CEO on the show in the not too distant future, but let's speculate wildly and irresponsibly before we can get him. Why do you think they would want to do this?

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I mean, again, you know, I, I wonder if there were certain capabilities or if there were certain things that Timor and the group at Schumacher just didn't want to have go away. My bet is internally they were probably fans and admired this. There is a fun story in history which we've referenced, and I don't think this was a, hey, we've got to make this huge acquisition. We've got to hurry up before Kravit gets their hands on it like you were suggesting. But I think that they thought, okay, we can make this make sense in the same way that at the time you referenced Backdrop, a lot of people were scratching their head at the time back in 21 about that acquisition, and I think they folded that in nicely.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yeah, I agree. I think Tillet is a simpler acquisition for Schumacher. I'm guessing this was simply like the two companies knew each other. They knew it was up for sale. It probably wasn't a billion dollar acquisition. They could probably make it work. I wonder if this is a sign of things to come. I'm sure there are more companies like Tillet out there that are probably casually sniffing around for a buyer. And I wonder if they're going to start knocking on Schumacher's door, especially because it really is a time of consolidation in the fabric industry. What was it last year or earlier this year that Thiebaud bought Rosemary Hallgarten, Kravit bought that small boutique brand, Carolyn Cecil, or Cecil, rather. I just think it's harder, as I said in the beginning, harder and harder to, to make it work on your own and their safety in these sort of, you know, the big five fabric houses. So I don't think this will be the last deal of this kind we'll see in 2025.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I'm liking this as a theme for the Thursday show. The Woodard Weave story, the Vermillion story. Right. I mean, I'm liking people swooping in and saving or preserving some of these small boutique manufacturers and brands in the industry. So I'm happy to cover more of this, but glad that we could speculate. And again, it seems like a feel good story, which I'm always up for. Moving on, Fred, we've got to talk about ChatGPT. For this week's feature, you wrote about how design firms are optimizing their sites to get discovered by, wait for it, AI chatbots. So what'd you learn, Fred?

[Fred Nicholas]

I don't know if this is as a feel good, as feel goody of a story.

[Dennis Scully]

This starts to feel uncomfortable. But we'll see. We'll see.

[Fred Nicholas]

I was acquired by a robot. This is kind of an interesting one. So this one kind of started digging into the archives and looking back at 2023 when I was writing an article about all the ways that AI, then relatively new for a lot of designers, was working its way into the industry. And there was this kind of funny little story about this designer in Boston, Jim Cappuccino, who got a lead from ChatGPT when the prospective client sort of typed in to the chatbot, hey, I'm looking for a designer in Boston. Who would you recommend? And they called Jim. It didn't work out, but what a fun, cute story. And I think I wrote at the time like, this will likely not become a big thing. Very wrong. Here we are two years later and designers are absolutely getting work through ChatGPT searches. I feel like I'm seeing it anecdotally left and right. We did an Instagram poll. I found a few designers who had the same experience. I think for some it's a little bit weird and wacky, but it's getting more and more common by the day.

[Dennis Scully]

And I think part of the reason why it's weird and wacky is we've talked recently about how many people still weren't telling us that they were using AI or that they were employing ChatGPT in some helpful way. I think to many people they still haven't discovered everything that is going on with OpenAI and with all of this technology. And I think you and I were speculating that the penetration is probably much greater than even perhaps a few months ago when we were last talking about it.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yeah, I mean, I know First Dibs had some survey, I think it was last year where it was like only 10% of designers are using AI in some form. And I'm guessing that number is much, much higher now. I think a lot of designers are kind of like discovering that they're getting found on ChatGPT because they themselves are discovering New sources and new ideas through using the tool. And then they talk to their clients about it. And the client is like, oh, yeah, actually I did find you on ChatGPT. So it's like, it's much more in conversation. There's also been sort of like technical reasons why this has happened. Right. Because when ChatGPT first launched, it had this sort of fixed training data. They basically, legally or not, scooped up the entire Internet, plugged it into this AI and people were getting their information, but it was dated to a certain range. But last year they made it so that ChatGPT can crawl the Internet and sort of search like live data. And so I think people are using it more and more that way. It's less like, help me cheat on my homework or whatever it is that people were using before, and more like, give me a recommendation on a restaurant. And, you know, it gives remarkably good results. They're way more curated than what a simple Google search will give you. And in many cases, in my own experience, it beats the quote, unquote, classic Google search experience. So why not find a designer that way?

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and interestingly, in doing a bunch of experiments, and I always am asking ChatGPT how much it knows about our world, it definitely uses Houzz as a big source. So a lot of the references that come up for designers were actually profile pages from Houzz. And I think to your point, that might have been a main source because of certain limitations. I get the feeling that there are a lot more resources that will now be open to it, but it is growing. Yeah.

[Fred Nicholas]

And I mean, I think the thing is, it's not just chatgpt. What I'm really talking about, or what I was trying to talk about in the article is AI powered search. Because of course now when you type something into Google, it often gives you what's called an AI overview at the top of the search results page, which is really not that much different from what you might get from ChatGPT. And so Google is changing itself to be much more like ChatGPT in the way that search works. And I think the challenge for the past decade has been, can I get to the top of Google if someone, Google's Chicago interior designer, be among the top three results. And I feel like going forward, the new struggle, and there's always a new struggle, is going to be like, will I get mentioned by ChatGPT? And there's already this whole industry that sprung up around optimizing yourself for what's called an LLM, a large language model. ChatGPT is one of them. And it's interesting because it's not that different from SEO. You still want to have articles written about you, you still want to be cited by many sources. But the difference is that because AI powered search is a lot more specific, it's not like someone just says designer and gets a bunch of results. You'll actually have a conversation with ChatGPT and say, I'm living in Brooklyn, here's how big my apartment is, here's what I'm looking for. And it'll go out and look through the web or a version of the open web and find information that correlates to a much more specific search. So a lot of what the experts say about this is that you want to lean into your niche and you want your website and all the content that you put up everywhere to really highlight exactly what you do. I think a lot of interior designers, the tendency is your website is a beautiful picture and then the copy is just like I do. Timeless interiors that blend old and new. And some people don't even give their location. You want to move away from that and more into, here is who I am, here's where I work, here's what I do well. And that, I think, will make you more visible to AI search. So it's obviously not perfect. ChatGPT does get things wrong. It hallucinates. There's all kinds of ways that this can be gamified, and I'm sure there will be all kinds of weird shenanigans that go on as people try to get themselves on ChatGPT's radar, so to speak. I do think it is more likely to deliver a good match, at least in as much as a good match as a search can provide. When I spoke to designers about getting a lead this way, most of them said it was a good lead. Most of them said the project was a good one. I think this is probably not a bad thing for designers. Side effect, it's terrible for the media. Just going to toss that out there. It's not good for you and me because most people find their way to websites like Business of Home through Google searches, and we're going to have to figure that out. But for designers, I think this is maybe a small good thing, I think.

[Dennis Scully]

I hope no. There are many industries that are being wildly impacted by all of this, and one of the things that I thought was so striking came out in the news just this past week talking about OpenAI and that they have already reached $10 billion in revenue for the company, almost doubling what they were on track to do last year. So I mean, the number of users, it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 million users. It's grown so dramatically. So I think to your point about that first dibs piece that came out that talked about the tiny fraction of designers that were saying that they were using AI, I hope that everyone is trying to understand these tools. And again, it's not just ChatGPT but Claude and many of the perplexity. There are many tools that are out there. I think that everyone should be diving in and understanding them. Particularly as we deliver this message that, that clients are going to be coming to you through these tools. Moving on, we're going to take a look at a few business moves from designers across the industry. Fred, starting with this acquisition from Vesta.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yes. A couple weeks ago, staging company Vesta Home announced a surprising acquisition. South Florida design firm Krista and Home didn't see this one coming. Vesta is an interesting company. What would you make of this one?

[Dennis Scully]

Well, exactly. I think you and I had talked recently about, well, there's a lot of reasons why you don't want to acquire design firms. I know that's tricky. And then wait a sec, here's Vesta. So we've had Julian Buckner on the show in the past to talk about.

[Fred Nicholas]

The CEO of Vesta.

[Dennis Scully]

Exactly. To talk about what an interesting company this is. It's a staging company, it's a design firm. They make furniture. They've got a whole array of things to help this industry along. This was interesting, the acquisition. My sense is that they didn't want to put up a sign saying, hey, we're looking to acquire a whole bunch of design firms. But they did want to make this one work.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yeah. It's funny, in the article that we wrote about it, Caroline Burke, an editor and a producer on the show, spoke to Julian for it and they made the point we're not trying to buy a bunch of design firms. And you and I were kind of wondering, well, are they really going to do that? They just don't want to have their inbox flooded with people trying to sell them. I don't know, maybe we'll have to gain that one out. But so Vesta of course does the staging, high end staging. And it's a very natural transition in many regards from staging to interior design. There's a lot of people who take advantage of that connection in one way or another because oftentimes when people move into a new place, they bought it because they liked the way it was staged. And so why not get the same person to do your design? So I think it makes sense that a staging company would buy an interior design firm in theory. The complicated part for me is just that Vesta has very national ambitions. And this is a Florida interior design firm. Does it make sense to then subsequently try and buy a design firm in every state? I'm a little bit interested in the dynamics of it. As you said, Vest is a very experimental company. They bought these furniture rental companies, feather and Furnish, and they try all kinds of different things. This may be just another experiment from the designer's perspective. Hey, if you want to sell your firm, the designer is staying on. This is, I think, more of an investment than a hand in the keys and walk away. But if you want to get some new money into your firm, get a payout. This is an interesting potential buyer that I'd never really thought of. So maybe this will be a sign of things to come. If not Vesta, then maybe others.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and I think, as you say, it's a laboratory like environment. I think they're, in a lot of ways, they've got a lot of different businesses going on under the hood. I think that they want to better understand how design firms might fit in the big scheme of things. And it's interesting to be able to offer Krista this back of house operation and an array of benefits and services that she might not have been able to have on her own. So it's interesting. It's definitely a space to watch. And I think about the fact, as we often talk about on the show, that the housing market isn't even thriving the way it once was. I imagine what a company like Vesta might be able to do if in fact, homes were really selling.

[Fred Nicholas]

Imagine that.

[Dennis Scully]

Exactly. So we'll see, and I look forward to hearing more. In the meantime, let's talk about Summer Thornton. So last year, the designer debuted a rental vacation home in Sayulita, Mexico, called Casa Rosada. Now she's doubling up with a property in Michigan called Meadow House. What did you make of this one, Fred?

[Fred Nicholas]

Well, the very first thing I did was go over to Airbnb and see how booked up Casa Rosada is. And I can report that it is pretty darn booked up.

[Dennis Scully]

Pretty darn booked.

[Fred Nicholas]

There are dates available in the summer, but if you start getting into the fall, there's times booked up in April of next year. So it is clearly, clearly working. What Summer is doing is clearly working. So my immediate thought looking at this was just simply like, all right, well, she probably wouldn't have done another one if, you know, if making a vacation home in Mexico did not work out. So clearly a success on some front. And cool to see another bite of the apple.

[Dennis Scully]

Absolutely. And Summer's been on the show and talked about how her home was to build this out as. I don't want to say her retirement plan, Fred, one day, but definitely another business operation that would perhaps make it possible to, as so many designers dream about, stop designing.

[Fred Nicholas]

Exactly. Every designer's dream to stop. Well, but, I mean, I think what's so cool about this? It's cool on many levels. I mean, I think, first of all, every designer like, like, dreams of doing a boutique hotel project. And I think that, as you pointed out before we hopped on the call, if you can't get it with a hotel chain, why not just do it yourself? And I think there's more capability for designers to set up something like this than ever. I think the really cool thing about Casa Rosada is that separate and apart from it as a business, as an Airbnb that makes hopefully money for Summer, it's also a marketing opportunity. She was posting a lot about the construction of it. I think it was on the COVID of at least one magazine, maybe even two. It's a beautiful project. You get a year's worth of content around it and a lot more opportunities to be in the press. And I think it's just very smart of her to do something she really wants to do, set up a new line of business and turn it into a marketing and PR opportunity. And the way that she announced this Michigan property, Meadow House, was also very cool. And it was like she pinged her followers, like, hey, guess what I'm up to next? There's a lot of engagement around that. So I just feel like the designers who are really operating at a really high level, it's like everything they do is both a business opportunity and a marketing opportunity and a way to engage with your audience and a way to have fun and be creative. And it's just. It's cool to see it working, you.

[Dennis Scully]

Know, I also think so many designers, as you were talking about, they say, oh, you know, if I were doing this, I would do this and this, and I would have one of these and this feature, and Summer gets to do that. So I'm looking forward to talking with her about it in the future and learning more about what Meadow House is going to be like. But I'm excited for her, and I hope it. I hope it leads to good things up Next, we're gonna talk about another show favorite, Athena Calderon. Fred?

[Fred Nicholas]

Yes. Last week, the designer hosted a tag sale selling off furniture from her Brooklyn townhouse, as well as props and decorative pieces from her former studio. How many things did you buy, Dennis? What'd you pick up from the Athena Calderon tag sale?

[Dennis Scully]

Well, you know, when I spoke with Athena recently at the New York School of Interior Design, we were talking about how people were a little sad about the Brooklyn townhouse being no more. Not that everyone's not excited about her new place, but apparently a lot of her. A lot of her fans were very attached to that house, myself included. And so I'm. I'm sorry to see it all be sold off for. For parts.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yes, I'm sure that's. That's exactly the angle she was hoping for. I mean, it is interesting when, like, a designer gets really, you know, catapulted in the spotlight for one particular home. You know, it can become like a kind of a, you know, a trap. You get stuck in this. This home that, you know, people associate you with. But Athena forces, you know, moved to Tribeca and has a very cool home there, which she's doing a lot with, and I'm sure we'll talk about that with her at some point. But, yeah, I thought this was really another example of the Summer Thornton thing, where I'm sure on some level, this was simply about, I have these pieces. I don't want them in my new home. How can I get rid of them? Of course, the simplest thing is just put them up on first dibs, just sell them that way. But where's the fun in that? This way, she gets to have a cool thing that engages her followers. It's a marketing opportunity. We covered it at Business Home because, of course, people want to know what Athena Calderon is up to. So I think it's another way of just don't just have a sale of a couple things you got lying around. Turn it into event. And I think Athena is great at that. And another good example of maximizing everything that you do from all angles and.

[Dennis Scully]

Another element in all of this. And Athena is so good at this, and Summer is, too, is the whole storytelling aspect of it. And why squander an opportunity to tell a story and go back to what you knew was a favorite space, this townhouse in Brooklyn. Let's reconnect with that while we're simultaneously telling the story about. But wait. Wait till you see Tribeca and what we're doing there. And I think it was so interesting in the Conversation with Stelline at El Decor, talking about the fact that we want designers to come to us with a story pitch that tells us what's behind this project. Tell me the story. It's not just show me some great images. And so I think in holding up Summer and holding up Athena Calderon, I think part of what we're doing is suggesting that these are two women who do a great job of sort of creating that story, creating some suspense around what they're doing and interest. And I think it's something that designers have even more opportunity to do. So a lot there. We've got to move on, though, because you know what, Fred? We're going to talk about dog grooms. That's right For Elle Decor this week, Rachel Silva wrote about dog grooms, a growing trend among homeowners who are building out luxury spaces for their pets.

[Fred Nicholas]

Do you have a luxury have you had a luxury space for your pets, Dennis? I know you used to have a dog, right?

[Dennis Scully]

And I miss having a dog. So this story pulls at my heartstrings a bit because I surrendered a former home of mine completely to my dog and allowed him to destroy a great part of it. And I never regretted it once. Fred.

[Fred Nicholas]

Yeah, I lost a red velvet sofa to my beagle mix. Definitely lost a few pieces along the way. Yeah. So this was a fun story. I mean, I think it's like we anecdotally know that pet owners love to spend on their pets, but when you see these numbers, you know, it's in 2023, Americans spent more than $147 billion on their pets. I mean, that is a staggering number. And I mean, I think, like, you know, not all of that is going to, you know, $6,000 dog beds, but some of it is. And I think that, like, interior designers are sort of taking advantage of that and working with people who love pets and giving them everything that their pets hearts desire. I mean, I, a former boss of Min, a little like pet nook, a pet alcove that was very luxuriously appointed and very fun. So I've experienced this in my own life, my own dog. Sadly, after we had the two young kids, there was less money, time and attention for a luxury dog groom. But she has the run of the place.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and I think that that is the case with so many people when you talk about, I think they laugh and say, ha, dog groom. What do you mean? The whole place is the dog room. I honestly think that one of the big drivers behind performance fabrics in this country, Fred. Sure. They like to pretend it's about spilling the red wine. And they say the children. But really what they mean is we want our dogs to be able to come up on the sofa. We want our dogs to be able to go wherever the heck they want to. And so I think that's actually been a huge driver behind performance fabrics.

[Fred Nicholas]

No, I think you're absolutely right. And it's funny, it doesn't really come up that much it in the design media, but I do think pets do drive a lot of design decisions in a real way. I mean, just a couple weeks ago, I was at a party and I met an interior designer. We were talking about shopping for a sofa, and I was talking about how difficult it is to choose the color of the fabric. And she was like, here's my hack. Same color as the dog's fur and you'll be happy. And I think that that's a very real consideration. And I think designers who know how to work with people who have pets have a little bit of a leg up when they they're talking to those clients. That's a niche. That's a niche ification that you can do for the benefit of our AI overlords. If you're great at working with pets, let the chatbots know, because I think clients really do appreciate that more than you might think. I feel like we've interviewed, what, five or six. Who was it that said, if you're nice to my goats, you've got me as a designer. Who is that?

[Dennis Scully]

I think Ed Hollander, when I was recently in his office, who had multiple dog beds under his design desk. He talked about the fact that it was a very dog friendly environment. And if clients come in and have any kind of problem with the dogs, then really they're quite hesitant about working with them. But I feel like we've spoken to so many people who use dogs and animals in general as just a barometer of whether or not this is a good person.

[Fred Nicholas]

Well, you know, this is bringing me back to Kim Skodra because she talked about how the number one thing when she's hiring a new person to work in her firm is kindness more than anything you asked her. I think, oh, it was a good question. What's the test for that? Are you nice? How do you answer that question? Or how do you ask that question? Here's a hack. Bring in a baby goat. Have the prospective job candidate interact with the baby goat, and I think that'll tell you everything you need to know.

[Dennis Scully]

I think it does. And I wish more people would Bring in a baby goat. Maybe we should have a baby goat. In the new business of home office. I don't know. We'll have to see. I know that. Designers. I was trying to think back to some great Kips Bay rooms and all the sort of dog references. I remember Sheila Bridges had a room, I think it was back in 2019. It was called actually Salon des Chiens, and it was all this great artwork. And she had actually, there was a powder room just off the side of the room, and you were drawn in by all this dog art. But little did you know that she actually had a motion sensor that would be activated when you would cross the threshold and a dog would start barking. And it was great and it took a lot of people by surprise. But I think there's been a lot of references. In the new wow. House. The team from Sims Hilditch created this wonderful boot room, as they call it in Britain, a mudroom. But there is a whole room that is dedicated to a little dog spa. There's a lovely delft tiled little shower for the dog. And there was was under the counter a bed and some bowls that were built in. And so I think a lot of designers are quite keen to try and find fun ways to take care of your dog.

[Fred Nicholas]

I think we should stop talking about this because my dog is listening right now, and I think she's getting extremely jealous of all these amenities.

[Dennis Scully]

What have you done for me lately? Yeah. All right, that's it for the news, but there's plenty more to check out on businessofhome.com including a look at Wayfair's retail expansion and what one designer learned from hiring an HR consultant. We'll be back in a minute, but first, a quick break. We're taking a quick break from the show to remind you about Leloy. For over 20 years, Leloy has been driven by strong foundations, a belief in beauty, a commitment to collaboration, and the quiet conviction that things made well and with purpose have the power to provide comfort for generations. From product designs until the moment a rug arrives at your door. At Laloy, we're all woven together. Learn [e-mail] that's L O L O I rugs.com and follow Laloyloi Rugs on Instagram and TikTok. And we're back. I'm joined now by longtime industry analyst and consultant Jerry Epperson. Jerry, thank you so much for joining me.

[Jerry Epperson]

I'm flattered at the invitation.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, I'm delighted to have you here. We've Got so much to talk about. First of all, let's tell people who the heck you are and what you've been doing all these years.

[Jerry Epperson]

Well, for the last roughly 55 years, I've been studying the furniture and mattress industry. I grew up in a small furniture manufacturing town in Southside, Virginia. And when I got out of graduate school, I went to work for a regional brokerage house that back then, 1971, the furniture stocks were hot as a pistol. It was all we baby boomers, starting out homes, getting married, having kids, and we were the hottest thing on Wall street there. And there were a dozen or so public furniture companies, and I got to know them well. Some of my new basically through my father who worked on the railroad and used to run through their towns and drop off cars of coal or box cars at their factories. And that helped me a little bit in getting to know the industry. So got to have a good career in the investment community. And then my. My two good friends started a business in 1991, and that's now been successful for 34 years. And I just resigned there because I'm approaching 80 and I want to do what I want to do for the rest of my years. And so I'm working on a couple of big projects. My finding early in my career was that the furniture industry didn't have a lot of really good statistics. And so I started putting together information statistics, and I'd had a newsletter since 1974 that went out and talked about these statistics. And in my opinion, what was really going on, not just what some people, especially the public companies, wanted you to think. And the last three years in particular for furniture have been really tough. The consumer, after buying a lot of furniture with their free government money in 2020 and 2021, went sort of dead on us, and we've really been suffering. And so I just want people to look forward and recognize that there's a whole new younger generation out there that's going to replace we baby boomers. And there's going to be a lot of good news. We just got to get past where we are right now.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, so it's interesting that you say that, because we've talked about. And our colleague Warren Shoelberg wrote a column about you sounding the alarm about the furniture industry and the several years in a row that the industry's been in a slump. I wonder when you feel that good news that you've just described is coming. When can we look forward to that? Jerry?

[Jerry Epperson]

I still have hopes for the fourth quarter of this year.

[Dennis Scully]

Okay.

[Jerry Epperson]

But we need to get the interest rates to go our way and to have those interest rates promote the housing sector. Housing's got problems. In addition to not great interest rates, we still have not enough. Enough land out there that's being broken up for new freestanding housing construction. We still have got people in the home construction business that are building homes that aren't fulfilling. Where the need is. Our need is for single family, freestanding, affordable homes. Young people starting out. Dennis, I. My wife and I first home was built during World War II, and this would have been about 1971, when I just got out of graduate school. And our first home, we paid $14,900 for.

[Dennis Scully]

Stop it.

[Jerry Epperson]

The monthly payment was less than $100. Okay. Now, I don't care how you adjust that to today. Hey, young people don't have that kind of opportunity open to them. And we sold that house at a 10 or $11,000 profit slightly over a year later. And that gave us more than enough down payment to go into a house that did last us 10 years.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah. Which is just how it's supposed to work. Right. So you're supposed to buy that starter home and then. And turn it over and move on to the next home. And that's what's been so challenging in the current environment. With prices as high as they are.

[Jerry Epperson]

You could not be more. Right. We sold each of our homes that we bought over the years at a price substantially larger than we paid for them, giving us more than enough to make a down payment on the next home. And we progressed right up until our last home. Before we moved into our condo, we were in for 31 years, and we made a good bit of money off of that. And then when we moved to a much smaller condo, it was a good exercise for us. And that's what's facing a lot of people in my generation right now. I'm one of the older baby boomers. And all of us have been at homes for a long time. And the idea of leaving that home is a real shock. And one of the first things. I hate to break the news to you, but fellow baby boomers, your children don't want your furniture and precious collectibles. They've got their own. And the young people today are, generally speaking, thinking they've had better incomes, they certainly have better educations unlike any generations ever had before. But I'm telling you, the young people today have got the opportunity to go out there in the marketplace, work for someone else, or as I've learned, work for yourself back in the early days, when we were doing a lot of mergers and acquisitions and financing things with Asian companies, one of the really, really smart gentlemen that I got to work with, who started one of the most successful Asian furniture manufacturers, told me one day, he said, jerry, you'll never get paid what you're worth working for someone else. And the more I thought about it, the more I realized that that was true. And so my two partners and I, both of them, we all started our company in 1991, and we timed it well. It's been. It was 34 years of great success, and we were very, very blessed to be in an industry that was growing and consolidating. And we took advantage of it and have done very well. We're a little teeny fish in a great big pond, but we were able to go out there and compete with much, much, much bigger brokerage houses because we knew the furniture industry. And if I may be blunt, very few of them ever did well.

[Dennis Scully]

Exactly. Very few of them ever did and therefore didn't see all of the sweeping changes that would come to the furniture industry and have. How so much of the industry moved abroad, as you were just referring to, and all of the big conglomerates that you talked about in the early part of the conversation, they all went away.

[Jerry Epperson]

By and large, almost all of them. I can still remember visiting with Sperry and Hutchinson and Mahasco and just all these paper companies. All these big paper companies had forest holdings, and they thought the forest holdings would give them an advantage in furniture industry. But furniture is made out of hardwoods for the most part. And most of the paper companies had bought up pine and softwood forest even back then. That was a big something to misplace. But they did. And I can remember sitting down with a board member coming back from the west coast as a board member of one of the largest paper companies, and. And they had just announced they were getting out of the furniture industry. They'd been in it for less than 10 years. And I asked the gentleman, I said, forgive me for being so. So abrupt, but y' all just got in the furniture. Why are you getting out? And he said, oh, there are lots of good reasons. I could show you slide after slide after slide. That's the reason we're not in the right position or we're not situated properly or this, that or the other. He said, but the truth is, once all the top people in the company had bought the furniture they wanted for their. Their homes, they started looking at the numbers. That's being pretty honest. When you get right down to it. And a lot of those famous, famous companies I grew up with that dominated this industry don't exist anymore. They were acquired, and the acquirers didn't know what to do with them. And so I look back and again, story after story of smart people, but not interpreting the inevitability of the global economy.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and I'm curious your thoughts, Jerry. I mean, the recent tariff announcements, which in part seem to be based on this notion of Trump trying to bring a lot of this manufacturing back to the U.S. whether you think that's a good idea or not, it certainly seems to be in response to the fact that so much of this manufacturing, as no one knows better than you, has moved to Vietnam, to Cambodia, Indonesia, and of course, China. And I wonder what your sense is of whether it's realistic to think that a lot of that industry will return to the US if that would be be a good thing, if that's a realistic thing. What's your sense?

[Jerry Epperson]

Unrealistic would probably be the most accurate description. Dennis There were a lot of people who were furniture industry observers who, as our business migrated overseas that said that it was our fault for not reinvesting in the business, that, you know, our manufacturers got greedy and took that money out of those businesses and let competitors come in and take the business from us. And that's not exactly true. Our government did a good deal of pushing our industries out of the United States. If I may use wood furniture as just a good example. Wood furniture, we've got a huge advantage because of our natural lumber supplies here that we have, and we've built our factories where they can take advantage of that. But it's a dirty industry, what we spray on it. Getting rid of some of the other materials didn't make for a pretty picture. Whereas the factories that I walked through in 1981, 82, 83, in Singapore and Thailand and Taiwan, those countries were just glad to have jobs for their workforce. And they were finding ways of making wood furniture for the US Market. And one of the things that made it work for them was that they didn't have much in the way of lumber. And their number one wood that they were using was rubber. Wood. Wood. These are trees that are grown to get the SAP and make rubber tires. But once those trees were 30, 35 years old, they had grown all they were going to grow, and they used to just chop them down and burn them because if the tree got to the point where the SAP didn't flow out of the tree freely, it had no economic value anymore. So they just tear them down and throw them away. And the furniture industry, we began to get product brought over to the United States made out of rubberwood and you could make it look like a lot of our preferred lumber here in the US and so that's what got the industry started. Today, somewhere between 85 and 90% of all wood furniture furniture for the home that sold in the United States is imported. Now if, if I can take one step sideways and mention the other big side of the furniture industry is upholstered furniture.

[Dennis Scully]

Right.

[Jerry Epperson]

We've got two completely separate upholstery businesses in the United States. And one of those them is we take a really good selling style and put a good fabric upholstery on it and we sell a ton of it. And so there are factories out there that are making 300 to 3,000 identical sofas. And because they're making them in such quantity, they can make them at a fantastic price. Well, that goes into the bigger furniture stores. But because they're made in such quantities and because the price is so good and because the logistics to get it from there to here have gotten so extremely efficient, we're able to give the American consumer a price that I don't think anyone could have dreamed of 25 years ago. Meanwhile, back at the farm, if you were will, a lot of people don't want a sofa that's been mass produced and that others out there in town are going to have the exact same sofa. And there's still a market for a lot of Americans who want that sofa that is just for them and not for anybody else. And that's still somewhere around 45% of all the sofas that are sold in the United states. So that 45%, by and large, is still made in the U.S. we've still got a very healthy U.S. upholstery business and long production runs go primarily overseas, although there are some very competitive factors here in the US as well. So we've got two different businesses there and, and the custom upholstery can compete all day long with the mass produced upholstery because they're going after such a completely different demographic.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, and interestingly, we've seen that higher end, that custom upholstery market be so well served by the growth of the interior designer client. And I'm so curious to talk to you, you having been to so many high point markets, I believe 100 high point markets, if I recall, and we've been talking so much in recent years about the growth of the interior designer coming to that market. I think these past few markets it's been something like 60% of the attendees have been interior designers. And that's a major shift that we've really only seen in the past few years or the past decade certainly. And I wonder what you make of that to the point of the industry and the impact that it has.

[Jerry Epperson]

Well, first of all, I'm a huge fan of the designers and I don't think they get nearly enough credit for the services that they offer. We baby boomers. And again, one time there were 77 million of us. Not quite that many right now, but one time we were a real force to be dealt with with. But we didn't grow up in homes where our parents hired outside decorators. That just didn't happen except for the the wealthiest 20% of the American population. And remember the way style works. Style kind of begins at one end and becomes increasingly popular and then it goes to a broader mix, broader mix, broader mix of prices. And then, then eventually it ends up being so popular it's made in such huge quantities that it can be made affordably for just about anyone. But your designer community fulfills a job that they see things in the marketplace that there's no reason for many consumers to see. One of the criticisms I have of our largest furniture stores is they tend to be very redundant. There'll be certain styles that are popular and that have become such a good deal, maybe overseas that they're picked up over and over and over again. So if you're in a good sized city, you go into the five or six largest furniture stores in town, down, you're probably going to be unimpressed with the redundancy of how you can see the exact same looking sofa in five or six of those stores. And it's because it's made, because it's a popular style, because it's well, so well priced, it's such a high value. And that's what those stores that buy sofas in the hundreds, for example, example, are buying, bringing over here and giving the American consumer such a great deal. Now those items are fantastic and most of them, the average American would have a very difficult time being able to tell the difference between the handmade sofa made individually for you and no one else might like which each other. Whereas the sofa that's sitting on the retail floor down the street might, might be that they have that one in a blue and they've got, if you go up and say, boy, I'd like have that sofa but I really need it In a green. The retailer's probably going to tell you, well, I'm sorry, we don't have it in green, but we've got another 25 of them in the warehouse in blue. So that's what you run into sometimes.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, so, I mean, are you optimistic about the furniture industry in the US and do you feel that the challenging business conditions that we faced for the past few years, because as you pointed out earlier, demand peaked during COVID and everyone sort of had purchased so much of the furniture that they needed and were waiting to come out of that period. Do you think innovation is part of what, what takes us out of that slump?

[Jerry Epperson]

There's no question in my mind that we're going to see things that most Americans don't know they want until they see them. I'll use the power recliners and Power Motion as we call them in the industry. We used to have manual recliners and I can remember dad having one of ours. It was in a red vine panel and it had a big old handle on the side. And dad loved that chair. He just loved that chair. And I better not be sitting at it when he get home from work. These chairs changed everything. And when we put power to them, this took off and drove the industry to new levels of growth throughout the second half of the 90s and throughout the 2000s. And don't look down, but we're in the wave right now of outdoor furniture furniture receiving the same attention and more power. Outdoor furniture that's got built in heaters and other features that's going to make outdoor furniture be able to have the same kind of customization, same kind of comfort levels and options available on indoor furniture now.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, that's so interesting. I mean, I wonder. So, I mean, as you said earlier, we've got to get rates moving in the right direction. The Fed chairman has been reluctant to cut rates even though Europe and other countries continue with their rate cuts because he's concerned about the inflationary pressures that tariffs might bring. We're waiting with bated breath to see if this inflation really shows up in a meaningful way or if rates finally can be dialed back a little bit. Do you think that's going to have a huge impact on the market's recovery?

[Jerry Epperson]

Yes, I do. But I look back on the decade of the 90s and even the decade between 2000 and 2010, 2020 rather, and we got so spoiled with rates that were low that a lot of us who purchased homes back with double digit mortgage rates look at those rates and say, my Goodness, why didn't everybody run out and lock them in when we could? We had single digit mortgage rates for well over a decade.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah.

[Jerry Epperson]

And some people took advantage, but not many. But they, you know, if you happen to be one of those who was a year or two late getting those good rates, you know, you paid for it. And that's worth. We're paying for it now with that particular universe of people didn't get the same value out of buying homes and flipping home from home to home home. The truth was it wasn't just how much our homes rose in price, in value, it was also how much we had repaid the mortgage. And so you took that total amount of, you know, the appreciation of the value of the home and the, the how much we'd repaid on that mortgage. And then when you look at what you got to repay on that mortgage to get out of house number one so you can buy house number two, it's what made it all possible. It's what made it all so profitable and very easy on the American consumer and why our mobility stayed so high. Most people don't remember it, but in 71 and 72, when the baby boomers were just beginning to emerge out as a major factor, well, those people got out out and really hit it right on the button in terms of being able to buy homes. And in 1971 and 72, we bought more than 2 million new homes each of those years. This year, last year, we're not building a million homes. We need to get back to building those homes because that really fueled our entire industry. It would fuel our industry again if we had the rates to allow it and if some other things worked in our favor as well. The environmental regulations we have right now are a lot tougher on home building than I think most people realize. And the people that make those home building supplies have those exact same issues. And then your appliances and everything for the kitchen and your furnaces and your air conditioners and all those, those. Not many of those are made in the US Anymore either. So those issues come about. It's a real, real complex issue. And it isn't just furniture. Furniture is the most basic unit. And when we have the opportunity and when we have the capital, we've seen just how explosive the mattress and furniture industries can be. Look at 2020 and 2021. You give us us a few thousand dollars of discretionary money and then let us show you where we're going to spend it. And we just saw home furnishings explode to levels no one anticipated because we finally had the capital to be able to decorate our homes and show our homes off the way we've always wanted. That was an exciting, exciting period for us.

[Dennis Scully]

Well, exactly. And that's why so many people are eager for that time to return. And I don't know if it can ever really return at that level, but I wonder. We've seen so many retailers go away in recent years, and a lot of the big family businesses, often businesses that have been around for decades and many generations, closed up during the past few years. Some of the biggest big players, like RH and our house, I think, took some of the blame for why family businesses were losing out. What's your sense of that and what's your sense of these big stores that have become the predominant players? Has that been a good thing?

[Jerry Epperson]

Well, in that we were able to give the American consumer products that they probably wouldn't have been able to afford, yes. I think it was very good and very good for a lot of us. Selling furniture is very capital intensive. If you buy 300 sofas and put them in a warehouse, that's a lot of money to tie up until you sell them all. We've got some people that are very, very successful in selling furniture and mattresses, but we don't have a whole lot of them who are making good money doing it. It's so expensive to sell. It's not as easy as it looks. Books. So I'm still a big fan of brick and mortar retailers and thinking they're going to come back and do well in the long run. But there's no question there's a need for what the E commerce business has created for all of us. I'm guilty of just finding it so easy to go to Amazon myself and get whatever it is I need today because I don't want to make a trip to a store for just one item. All that's changed so much. And plus, to somebody my age, think about those of us who came along and we didn't have computers. I resisted the computer as long as I could. But nowadays, like everybody else, I've learned to use it and seen how it can benefit my life. A lot of the statistics and all we couldn't have kept. We couldn't have generated them to begin with, and then we couldn't keep up with them and calculate how they've changed if we didn't have our computers to help us with that.

[Dennis Scully]

Yeah, no question. And the role that technology has played has certainly been transformational. Well, there's so much more that I Want to talk with you about in the history of the industry. I could talk to you all day about it, but I, I'm thrilled to get to talk to you though, and I thank you so much for making the time.

[Jerry Epperson]

Thank you so much, sir.

[Dennis Scully]

And we're back. We're getting to the end of the show here, but before we go, we'd like to take a second to highlight anything going on in the industry that might have caught our eye.

[Fred Nicholas]

Fred, you thought you made it to the end of the show without the T word getting dropped, but I'm afraid I'm gonna have to say the word tariff because the consumer price index just dropped this morning and a lot of people were speculating that we might start to see the impact of tariffs on the economy and that inflation would go up radically. It did not. It stated a very muted amount of growth and I even dialed in on the furniture numbers which actually slightly went down. So furniture inflation is not out of control. Now the big question is, is this a sign that people aren't raising their, their prices as much as we think or is this a little bit more about the fact that people had a lot of inventory, you know, banked in the first quarter of the year and that we're really going to see the price hike start to hit later on in the summer? We'll see. But at the very, at the very least, this is, this is slightly good news. So I'm going to take it. That was one, one little thing I saw. The other thing is a little more random. Do you remember Matt Sanders? Dennis, the designer, the interior designer? Who.

[Dennis Scully]

Designer to the stars, Former guest on the show.

[Fred Nicholas]

Exactly. Who had the company Consort that we sort of profiled their, their trials and tribulations a long time ago. RIP Consort. Well, Matt Sanders apparently has a, he has a one man show that, that's appear. That's. It seems like it might be NC17. So I don't want to recommend this to listeners of all ages, but he's got like a show that appears to be kind of interesting and salacious. I wonder if there's details around his design business, but it's called, it's called Rug Burn and I think he's selling tickets right now at both the LA and Edinburgh Fringe Festival at the moment. So if you're curious about, you know, an NC17 lightly burlesque y show from a celebrity interior designer, check out Rugburn.

[Dennis Scully]

I remember when he said I'm high point famous.

[Fred Nicholas]

Okay, yeah, well that's all about to change.

[Dennis Scully]

Exactly. Now he's Going to gain even greater fame. Well, we wish him well.

[Fred Nicholas]

What country are they?

[Dennis Scully]

A couple things caught my eye. One, an account that I just love following the, the account is Mary Orton. Many designers I know follow this account already. This was a, this was a woman that I discovered. She did a fabulous and, and quite humorous tour of the Kips Bay Show House, I want to say, a couple of years ago. And she does a lot of sort of home related stories. She recently did her primary bedroom and created quite a fun real detailing. It's all done up in Schumacher fabric and there's actually quite a bit of Casabranca in there and even some Chaddock furniture that she gave a shout out to. But one of the things that I love about her coverage is not just the flair that she has with design, but the humor and the intelligence that she brings to all of it. They're quite fun. She's got a great sense of humor and so she is definitely worth a follow and checking out. And it's, it's just a fun space. And speaking of humor, the other thing that I wanted to give a shout out to was the middle brow. Not the, not the highbrow Fred or the low brow, but the Middlebrow podcast, which is a podcast that's co hosted by friend of the show, Dan Rosen. And, and this week he had on David Michon from the four scale substance deck. And, and they actually had sort of an interesting conversation about design criticism. White boucle came up in the conversation and, and even the dupes came up for a while. So they, they hit on, on some of the hot Thursday show topics. It was, it's always fun to hear David Michon talk about all of this because, because he's quite cynical about a lot of this.

[Fred Nicholas]

Delightfully cynical. Yeah. How are you the one bringing of substack for the first time in the show?

[Dennis Scully]

Well, you know, I, it, it popped up in my feed and, and I thought, oh my goodness, look at this. So I know, listen, I too get to be a fan of a lot of different substacks, Fred. You've, you've turned me on to many of them and I thank you for that. But, but I'm, I'm all for people listening to, to both Dan Rosen and to David Michon. So I'm, I'm glad those all came together. One of the things we forgot to mention is in the show is that what's coming up for next week, RH's earnings. That's right. So sadly, they continue to schedule them right after our show. Records because they know that drives us crazy. But we will be talking about that. You'll be away, but I'll be with Caitlin next week, hopefully breaking down the RH earnings in great detail. All right, that's all the time we have today. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to keep up with the latest news, browse job listings or take a workshop, visit us [e-mail] if you want to get in touch with the show, write to [e-mail] this episode was produced by Fred Nicholaus and Caroline Burke and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Have a great weekend, and we'll be back with you on Monday.