A (5:47)

Really gonna take on.

B (5:47)

Right? Exactly. And, you know, needless to say, it has. And I think what was so fascinating, I. I've mentioned to people that I. I feel like my time in the world of design was very blessed because I think I. I came in very young and I came in to a world that was dominated by these incredible designers. Mario Bora, Angelo Dangia, Mark Hampton, and, you know, these people that are just, you know, they were almost unreal figures to me as a young designer.

A (6:21)

Sure.

B (6:21)

And all of them had an influence, you know, in many different ways. But to come in and be part. Just like the style of photography was changing, well, there was room for this new generation of designers. And so there were a number of younger designers who were coming in, and it was very exciting. And I just loved being there, working with a photographer and actually, you know, exploring things and exercising my perspective. So I kind of loved that. But things change.

A (6:50)

Well, exactly. Things change and things evolve. Today, I get the sense from many that I talk to that they almost wish the designer wouldn't actually show up.

B (6:58)

Absolutely, yeah.

A (6:59)

On shoot day. Right. Because they are moving things around and they do feel very sensitive about it and they'd rather just have a free hand to put all those darn flowers in place and move some things around.

B (7:11)

It's like an artist having somebody else pick his frame. I'm like, well, no, I wouldn't frame it like that. But, you know, but also there's, you know, and there's trends. Like there is that trend with the kind of relaxed, thrown together thing. Right. Like what? You know, like the sofa's messed up, the pillows are tossed, the dog's on the sofa, you know, and, you know, that makes me a little uptight, but.

A (7:38)

That is not the look that Thomas Faisick is going for.

B (7:41)

Right, Exactly.

A (7:42)

It never has been, nor, I'm sensing, will it ever.

B (7:46)

Really. Yeah, I don't think I'm lightening up a bit, but I think for all designers and architects who are passionate about what they do and trying to express their voice, it's like we spend our time compromising with working as a team with the clients. And obviously our interior, our residential interiors, are really about building homes for other people. So obviously you want those people's voices seen and felt in the projects. But. But having a lot of outside forces putting their fingers on your work sometimes can be tough. But then there are people who get it, and basically they bring that fresh perspective. Just puts your work in a new light. So I can't say I'm against that.

A (8:31)

I want to come back to the early days of your career. But just while we were talking about Architectural Digest and that sort of magical time in the industry where, as you say, Mario Botta and Mark Hampton and Angelo Dangia. And you mentioned that they influenced your work or perhaps how you thought about the industry in general. Can you elaborate on that?

B (8:56)

Sure, sure. Well, you know, I remember being in New York. I think I was, like, 22, and I remember I was on Madison Avenue, and I was looking in a window, and all of a sudden there was another person looking in the window, and I could see, and I noticed the person's reflection, and it was Angelo Adangua. And I was like. I mean, to me, what I loved about him was that he had a very strong voice and he had a very strong connection to this whole idea of taking the past and creating classical forms, but creating these sort of new shapes that were very fresh and kind of clean, a little sometimes overscaled. And his upholstery was really fantastic. And he was a big influence. Because I started here in Washington, I had the benefit of all of this classical architecture and our museums, which influenced me, of course, as a kid. And we had a lot of traditional work. And what helped me raise my voice was I was this young guy, and I was taking these classical details and creating interiors that were a little more modern in their approach, and they weren't sort of simplifying details and simplified palettes. But here was this New York creator that I admired very much, who was doing it on a big scale. And, you know, the idea that he had his furniture collections and he was doing interior, so he was kind of representing this ideal that I would have loved to have had for. To have had for myself. So it's spectacular for me to feel that I have been able to do some of what he was able to do in a national way and create furniture collections and, you know, use my creative energy within my interiors to make my own Mark.

A (10:51)

Yes. And at 22, I'm impressed that you knew what Angelo Donghi looked like.

B (10:54)

Yes, I recognize him. Well, thank you, Paige. Rents for, you know, and that's true about that magazine, too, with ad, it's like, I remember getting it even when I was in college and studying design. And, you know, honestly, while, of course, I loved the idea. Oh, one day, if I could just get in there one time, you know, I didn't know, you know, if I could have told my younger self, don't worry, you're gonna. You're gonna get your fill of this, I wouldn't have believed me. But. But, you know, that's. That's. That's kind of great. But. And then there's people like Mark Hampton who, like, talk you know, such an elegant person. What connected me or what I connected with in his work was that he definitely had a way of taking tradition and making it feel fresh and unique in a way. And while he was much more of a traditionalist than I am, I love what he did and which he. I connect him and Mario with Blair House here in Washington, because I think in the mid-80s, they were brought in when they were doing the major renovation of Blair House. And I know I learned so many stories because the person who was the director of this project was Lucky Roosevelt. And she brought Mario and Mark in. And from what she told me, I don't know how much of this is true, although I think it all is true, that they drew, because, you know, it was like, who gets what room? So I think they basically drew numbers to decide who was going to do which spaces. And I mean, I would have loved to have been their assistant at that time, learning and seeing how that whole dynamic. And Mario had such an incredible sense of humor. And Mark, I never met him. I was at an event and he was there. I saw him from a distance, but I was too intimidated to say hello. But Mario, I had engaged. Cause he's such a character. So that must have been an incredible dynamic. But that too, I mean, for me. And here I'm a Washingtonian. And who knew that 30 years later, Lucky Roosevelt would come to me and asked me to come in. And it was time to refresh the rooms.

A (13:04)

And we should explain to listeners what Blair House is, who might not know because it's such a significant property.

B (13:10)

Yeah. Blair House is the guest house of the White House. So when all heads of any head of state or dignitaries are invited by the president, this is their lodging. And it's right across the street from the White House. And it's got an incredible history. But through Lockie, I had the chance. You know, she brought me in, and for about 10 years I worked with her before she retired on redoing guest rooms. Though we did redid the principal suites, the library, some corridors. The Truman Study was the last room that I did in 2022. But what an experience. Mario found out that I was redoing, that I was being brought in. So he sent me this beautiful note. And I ended up calling him, wishing me well and whatever. And I remember calling him, and I told him that what my intention was for one of the rooms that he had done. And of course, he was delighted. What was nice about that interaction with Mario was, you know, the humanness of him. I mean, that was a very special time for him. And he put in a lot of himself in those rooms, which got great notoriety, well deserved. And the idea that there are people outside of him that wants those rooms to survive and that, that, you know, that he did make a mark and, and he, you know, that while he's not in there, he wasn't in there presently, he is in there and that he's recognized. So I just thought as a creative person who, you know, times change, that it's, it was kind of a nice, well deserved way of thinking about the house. And, you know, I did. I remember the first time I met him was I was, I did a show house for ad. It was Central park south and he was one of the designers doing it. And I was in my room waiting for a delivery and I was staring out the window. It was way up one of the new towers. And I heard this guy go, don't jump. And I turned around and there he was standing there with his hat and, you know, he was full of jokes and, you know, funny. But it was a nice introduction to him.

A (15:19)

He was a great character.

B (15:21)

Yeah.

A (15:22)

Do you want to weigh in at all with some of the recent renovations going on at the White House or the ballroom or some of the new decorations in the office?

B (15:32)

Yeah. What can I say? You know, I think it's, you know, it's like I'm less concerned about the decorations in the White House because obviously things can change. Right. We can change these things and, but you know, the ballroom and, you know, it's so far beyond the design comments. It's more about America and what we're doing and where is our focus. And with so many things that this country needs, unity being one, I just feel that whether that money is gifted or not, it certainly could go to the betterment of our communities and our environment. When, before you start hammering away at a national treasure, I think it's good to pause and get a collective moment. And, you know, you are just like other presidents have said, this isn't our house, it's America's house. Yes. And that's how I felt about the. Well, when I was doing Blair House, it wasn't. I didn't go in there thinking, I'm going to use Thomas Pheasant vocabulary and I'm going to put in some modern pieces and do that. I was really stepping outside of my studio and seeing, well, how can I support this project in a way that would serve it, you know, creative, be creative, but through a, through a different lens. And I feel that you know, any of these public buildings that are part of our heritage should be. Should. There should be a group dynamic and there should be an understanding of long.

A (16:59)

Term and that they deserve that sensitivity.

B (17:01)

Yes, absolutely. And, you know, one of the things is very sweet. So my godson is French, and he was 14, and his parents sent him to Washington to stay with me for two weeks a few summers ago, and he wanted to go to the White House. So I hadn't been in the White House since. Since elementary school when I would take tours. So we walk. It was funny, we walked through it and we got through it. We were standing outside and he looked up at me and he goes, is that it? And I spent.

A (17:31)

And of course, he's used to these grand palaces.

B (17:35)

Exactly.

A (17:37)

Where's the rest of it?

B (17:38)

Exactly. So, you know. But I spent time talking to him in the following days about American architecture and about our country and, you know, how Washington was developed, and he was fascinated. It was great to have that, you know, again, that perspective, because I loved the tour. But I was like, you know, I thought I was going to impress him, but so then I, of course, I took him to the National Gallery. He was impressed with that. He did like that building. But I love our city, and I've come to love the idea of how our architecture was formed and the simplicity of it. And the idea, like, you go to any fantastic building in Paris, it's filled with beautiful things and lots of it, and the gilding. And then you go to. You come here, and these beautiful things are collections, but they're limited, and each one is special. So I realized really early on in my career, my design aesthetic was the idea of creating these sort of thoughtful spaces that are kind of pure, and then fulfilling them with whether it's art or an antique or a painting or a sculpture, that they would be set up to be admired, as opposed to being one of many that it's sort of like you're looking at things through a very special lens and you're appreciating them as objects, whether they are functional or not. And so, you know, that I feel that's really washing my experiences growing up in D.C. what I kind of would walk away as I toured these great buildings.

A (19:20)

Well, that's what I'm so curious about, Tom, is the impact that growing up in and around D.C. had on you and your visual sense and how you came at the world.

B (19:33)

Well, I've told this story a lot, but when it was very fortunate. I was born in D.C. and then my parents moved to the modern suburbs when I was preschool. But the nice thing about being close to D.C. was every year we would have multiple field trips. When I was growing up, from elementary through junior high, we would come into D.C. to visit the museums. But my first trip was third grade and we went to the National Gallery. So it's my first experience. And I swear that I remember this. I remember single file, you know, going into the rotunda and we had to stand there. There were other kids groups, of course, school groups, and we had to be silent and no talking. But I remember standing there and looking up at this incredible space, John Russell Pope space, and looking at that dome and just being like overwhelmed. And I grew up, I mean, my experiences were a split level, modern house in the suburbs. So I had never seen something like this. And I remember going home and talking to my parents and saying, I could live there, mom, you know, and of course they're staring at me going, oh my God, what are we gonna do with him? But what I didn't realize at the time was I talk a lot about the human connection to environments and to architecture and that, you know, you see, I see a lot of beautiful things, but sometimes you connect. You know, you can see something beautiful, but you don't necessarily emotionally connect to it. You can understand it, but, you know, here I was, this eight year old, I guess, and that I was connecting to this architecture and I wasn't aware that's what I was doing, but that was indeed. And I know it's true because when I go to that building today, I have those same feelings. It all comes back, right? So. And that, you know, the purity of the classical vocabulary and just the space and how I feel. And so I try to translate that into what I do, whether it's furniture or interiors and modern or traditional. But, you know, I want my clients to capture that, I want them to feel that.

A (21:35)

But it sounds as though that state. And off you went to pursue that. And I don't know if you ever thought of pursuing anything else. I don't know if there was ever another path you thought about taking.

B (21:47)

I was always drawing when I was a kid. I didn't have. There weren't architects and designers riding around in our neighborhood. It was the case where your parents, if you want to call it decorating, whatever the house needed, they took care of it. So it wasn't like that. But I. When I was graduating from high school, I applied to the University of Maryland, to the architecture department because I loved architecture, but I really didn't know much about it, know if it was the right thing. I just. I didn't have a second choice really. So I jumped in and it was very interesting. I started in the architecture program and I had a wonderful professor who we. I had this project and it was. You had to. We had a given kind of a descriptive of what the project was about, and we had to present it to the professor. So I went back for my professor's talk response and he said, tom, you know, you were the only one of the group that took me inside and you connect it and you explained to me your choices based on the exterior. And he said, you know, we have an incredible interiors department. I really think it would be great if you took next three semester if you took some of these classes to round out your studies, because I think there's something here. And of course, this is so funny, but it's true. So I walk out and I'm thinking, he's telling me I should not be an architect.

A (23:11)

He's telling me I shouldn't be an.

B (23:12)

Architect, go to another school. But I was so intimidated by him that I thought, okay, when I cross his path, I got to tell him I took his advice. So I did take his advice. And the next semester I added two extra classes in a design. And, you know, it was pretty immediate. A light bulb went on in my head and I'm like, I like this. And so it took me another year, maybe a year and a half before I shifted over completely to interiors. But it was one of those things. And I feel like I've had so many important people in my life, you know, who helped turn my head the right direction or, you know, like we're talking about Paige rents her coming in and. But this professor who just. He just opened the door and said, look, you know, take a look. And so it was just great. Although I do remember going home and telling my parents that I was changing my major and they were staring at me. Of course, these are the same people who were staring at me when I went to them and said, can I borrow some money? I want to go out on my own. I want to start my own business. And you know, the kind of silence you get the stares. But. But my parents were very. Were great. They were very supportive, very proud of my. My foreign.

A (24:28)

We're taking a quick break to remind designers about John Rosselli and Associates. Your go to destination for custom design solutions and an unparalleled selection of furniture, lighting, textiles and wall covering. Celebrating 75 years of innovation. John Roselli partners with leading brands to offer endless customization options, ensuring every project is as unique as your vision. With a reputation for outstanding service and inspiring collections, they're here to support you every step of the way. Visit genrasselli.com or explore their showrooms to discover how they can elevate your next design project. Follow them on Instagram for even more inspiration at johnrasselli Associates. And now back to the show. Well, I'm curious. Why is the schooling of architecture so different from what you learn in the schooling of interiors? Why is there still such a divide after all these years?

B (25:40)

Yeah, there is, right?

A (25:41)

And they seem to still be speaking a different language.

B (25:46)

Well, honestly, in the real world and stepping outside of the campus, you know, in the real world, there is a divide also. I mean, there's a lot of us who cross over and, you know, we work with. On our projects, you know, sometimes we're leading the architecture, sometimes we work with large firms, sometimes we work with independent architects. And it's a little bit like working with the client. You know, every office, every relationship is different. And when you have a architect, designer, client dynamic, you know, it's always interesting to see who's leading this, you know, and sometimes, you know, in the. Some. Sometimes during the process, the ball gets tossed, which is great amongst the three teams, but. But I think there is a divide. I think, you know, I guess it's a plus in my industry because you. So if someone says, I'm an interior designer, I'm not sure what that means. I mean. Well, what do you mean? You know, and that can be from somebody who has architectural background, who does. They do all of their detailing, they do the interior architecture, they do the specifications, they drive the design to people who do the decoration of an existing or a given interior, to somebody who is creative and does. Has workrooms and they create draperies, sofas, whatever, so. And a lot of in between. So it's a pretty broad. You know, when someone says they're a designer, I don't. I. That's great. I'm not sure exactly what they're doing, but, you know, I know what I do. But, you know, it's. Every office is a little bit different.

A (27:23)

Well, exactly. And that's why I wonder, do we need better descriptions or titles or greater depth?

B (27:29)

I don't know if that works. I think the cat's out the bag. I think, you know, we're all. I mean, I think there is beauty in that. You can, you know, just within interiors, there's residential, there's commercial, there's hospitality. Furniture, I mean, there's just so many avenues. I don't think you can make it. Maybe the word interior designer is just kind of a blanket term, isn't really the right term, but it's what we use so often.

A (27:54)

The architects will tell me that they think that the designer has more of the ear of the client, that they're listened to more. And so the architect tries to win over the designer because they feel like they're the ones closer to the client.

B (28:10)

I think that'd be true, but I think I spend time trying to win over the architect and win over the idea that it's collaborative. You know, I have really strong opinions and I want to be able to share them, but I also don't have a thin skin. I like working with outside people because it brings, you know, again, that new perspective. So that's why I spend so much time in Paris, to get out of my studio and discover the world just outside that door in front. One of the things that I think is a negative is that sometimes design firms, because it is intense and there is a lot of demand and there's not enough hours, so you get kind of caught up in your studio and in your computer and you're just generating work and that you don't take the time to get out and to step away from the screen, step away from your office. You get out of your own head. And I think that's a really valuable, a valuable tool not only in opening your creativity, but for longevity.

A (29:14)

Well, and as you were saying earlier, if you had told your younger self, oh, don't worry, you're going to be published in Architectural Digest 35 times or whatever incredible number it was, you wouldn't have believed it. But also, it's interesting that when you first got published very early on in your career, very little came from it. So unlike the fame and hopefully for you fortune that came in your later years when Paige Rents was supporting you in multiple projects being published in the very beginning, it didn't come quickly. Tell me about that.

B (29:51)

Well, I'd been working for a residential designer here in Washington. His name is Victor Shargai. He's a lovely, lovely person and he had a design firm here that he did very high end residential traditional interiors in Washington. And I worked for him for three years and I. We didn't see, we weren't on the same page creatively, you know, because I thought I knew a lot and I, and I had a more modern approach and he was doing tradition, but he was a great businessman and he was A great schmoozer. And I learned a lot about client designer dynamics and, you know, how to get your point or how to win a presentation. And I decided I wanted to go out on my own. And I had an opportunity to purchase a place in a not so great section of D.C. with very little money, was able to do a skin on my teeth renovation. But it was pretty cool, very modern, and we kind of gutted it. And there's a lot of painted drywall and a black carpet, because one of my heroes way back was Joe Durso, who did all those New York slick, you know, that Calvin Klein apartment, you know, that I remember, or Halston, that very designer look. And so I had enough money to do the black carpet and to do the dry. The drywall. And so. And I didn't have money for furniture. I mean, it was like I was kind of, like, doing what I could. And I remember getting pillows and tossing black pillows and tossing them around and borrowing art from an art gallery. And we did photoshoot for the Washington Star, which was a leading paper at the time, and they had a home section. And of course, they're, you know, like all these places, they're desperate for articles. So, you know, I was this new kid. So they said, we're gonna. We want to come and photograph this. This is great. And they did put my picture. Got my picture in it. And, you know, I thought, well, this is. This is going to, like, the phone is ringing. Here I go. I'm off. I'm rich. And so. So the article came out. They did a really beautiful job on the article. I was very proud of it. And nothing happened. Like, I mean, when I say nothing happened other than family and friends calling me to say, wow, nothing happened. And so. And I came to realize that here I am, I'm publishing something that really wasn't what I wanted to do. It was what I could afford to do and kind of copy somebody that I admired. But do it on a shoestring, so that's not so great. And so. And I realized that, you know, if. And I tell this to young designers all the time, when you're ready to publish something, please make sure that it represents the designer inside you that you want to be. Don't publish something just because you have an opportunity, but you really don't want to do that type of work, right? I mean, it seems like such a basic thing, but when you're young and you want. I mean, any kind of so eager.

A (32:46)

To be any kind of publish, right? I mean, of course, but it all worked out.

B (32:50)

I did get over it. I did get over it.

A (32:53)

You did get over it.

B (32:54)

And I sold that house. There you go. Just the way it was. I got a good deal for it and moved on. So that was good.

A (33:01)

And off you went on your career. And as you were saying, you went and told mom and dad you were starting your firm and at a young age. And so how did you. How did work come to you, and when did the meaningful breaks happen for you?

B (33:18)

Well, again, this is like all these nightmare stories. One of the things that motivated me to go out on my own was I had the opportunity through the design firm that I had worked for. One of Victor's clients was a great couple. They had some friends who were renovating a house on Massachusetts Avenue, a beautiful neighborhood in D.C. and they were younger, and Victor wasn't the right designer for them, so they had reached out to me. Well, I couldn't. It was clear in the office that I was in Victor's office, you weren't allowed to do side jobs or everything had to be for the firm. Right. So I was in the position where, if, you know, here I had this opportunity, and it was either stay with Victor and lose it or try. So. And I had a friend who advised, who really pushed me over the edge to do it, because he said, tom, you don't even own a car. What are you going to, you know, go out?

A (34:13)

What's the lose?

B (34:14)

You can always go work for someone. So I said, okay. So anyway, I did it. So I go out. So I go and I get my stationary, set myself up, and I go to my second meeting with this new client. And they said, we just want. Before we get started, we just want to talk about your contract, because we have family in New York who can purchase for us. So we'd like to pay you all your design fees, whatever you feel you deserve. But we're going to be purchasing all of the furnishings through our connections. So you just have to specify, well, this is where youth can kill you. This is the negative thing of youth. So basically, I had taken the basic standard contract from the firm, I. And adapted it the term, because it's the only way I knew how to work, which there was a percentage for procurement. You charge a fee, and that's part of what you earned. So I'm seriously sitting opposite this very nice person, and I look at him, and I go, well, I don't work that way. Now, I know that he knows this is my first project, but I don't work that way. And you know what? And again, I share this with students, the same story, because. And he said, well, we're willing to pay you. You can tell us what your fees are. And I just. I couldn't process that. And I didn't have the wherewithal to at least say, well, let me get back to you. I mean, that's the perfect phrase, right? And he says, well, if you can't. I said, I just don't work that way. And he said, well, then we're not gonna be able to work together. And I got up and I left. And I remember walking. Walking out his house and my old. My white used Datsun car was sitting outside. And sometimes it didn't start. I remember just wishing that, please start so I don't have to like, go in and ask him. Embarrassing scene, call a tow truck. But it did. But I, you know, but what a learning curve and that, you know, that this is where, you know, here I thought it was so ready, but I just needed a little more maturity to be able to navigate through negotiation. There's nothing wrong with negotiation. There's nothing wrong with approaching a project in a new way or listening to options, you know, but later, later, despite.

A (36:30)

Walking away from his first big job, just storming out of there, right.

B (36:34)

So eventually what happened was, it was. I think I got a. There were two clients that had been Victor's clients that were doing projects outside of D.C. and both of them came to me separately. And they were two families that had great connections and cared about me and were believed in me and gave me these opportunities to do these, like, second or third homes for them outside of D.C. so that kind of started the ball rolling and through again, word of mouth. You know, just like in any community, you start. It starts getting picked. You get picked up by people and, you know, you. You invest your. Your best and it pays off so slowly over time. And that time when Paige reached out to me, you know, I was doing great. I loved my. My work was more in the mid Atlantic area. Washington, Virginia, Maryland. Some guest, like, like sort of getaway houses in Aspen and Florida. But that was kind of my world. And the thing with Paige is when I started going into ad, it just blew. You know, there were no boundaries anymore. So I became more national and then through certain projects became. Started doing work outside of the U.S. so, you know, it's just been kind of a very beautifully paced growth.

A (37:58)

Well, and that's a remarkable thing. I mean, you mentioned the word longevity earlier, and I don't know if even you would have Imagined the kind of longevity that you've ended up up having. And here you are with all sorts of licensing collections and you've got multiple projects, and I know you're working on a book, which I want to talk to you about. So in this first client, you said, no, no, no, I can't work that way. If I can't do the purchasing, I can't charge my markup. Did you ultimately end up somehow changing how you charged as a result of that experience, or where did you land with all of that?

B (38:32)

I landed, quite honestly. The basic contract that I had originally has been pretty much the framework. The only thing that's different is obviously for hospitality or for commercial projects, it doesn't work that way. So there are design fees, which are always. That's painful to sort of lock yourself into a number, because honestly, I don't care who you're working with, you never really know the extent of hours that you will be pulled into. And, you know, a project, you know, they come, oh, the project's going to take 18 months. Well, there's no guarantee. It could take three years, depending on what happens with that property with, you know, with the company that you're engaging in. I've learned a lot of that through hospitality. Hospitality was something I really always wanted to do. And we've had some. We've done some work with Rosewood and some other groups that I've loved it, but it's always a lot more work and, you know, and it takes a lot longer, but, you know, it's kind of deciding what you. What are you willing to do to get these types of opportunities. Right. Where are you able to compromise? So. And it's competitive. I mean, well, you know, hospitality group can come to me. I'm not the only person on their list, you know, and they're very upfront about it. But once you establish a good relationship, that relationship can go on for a long time. And that's great, just like residential work.

A (39:57)

So in the end, you. You landed roughly where you. Where you begin. So you. You charge a markup on purchasing and procurement and all hourly fees for design. Fees and hourly fees for design.

B (40:07)

Those numbers have changed. They've gone up gratefully.

A (40:11)

They've gone up.

B (40:12)

Right. Yes, right, right.

A (40:14)

So when did licensing come along for you?

B (40:18)

It was 2001. And I. I mean, I had always liked the idea going back to my Angelo Dangia dream list. Right. But I didn't have a. It wasn't a company that I felt I wanted to target. And quite honestly, I was so Busy with my interiors. It was one of those things that would come into my mind, like, oh, this is what I would love to do, but you just go back to your studio and you're working through your interiors. But I got a cold call from a gentleman who was representing Baker Furniture, and he was very nice, and he said that the company had been watching my growth in the magazines, the publications. They loved my classical sort of refreshed look, and that they had had a lot of success with Barbara Berry in her California cool look. And they were looking for somebody who could do something a little more traditional, but with a modern feel. And they just thought you were. They thought that I was the perfect candidate, and they wanted me to come to Chicago to meet with them. And I said, I. It caught me off guard. But again, the great negotiator, I said, well, you know what? I don't think it's right for me right now. And what I was thinking while I was talking to him was I was doing so well, and I was developing my voice, and I thought, they're going to come in. They're a big company. I'm a small design firm, and I don't want to be railroaded, and I don't. I don't want to end up doing something that really isn't me. And then it's out there. And now I. How am I going to get back to where I want to be? So I just. I thanked him so much, and I said, well, you know, maybe in the future, but right now, I don't think it's the right thing. So a little bit late, a few days later, a week later, I get a call from Rachel Kolder, who's. The Kohler family owns Baker. And she was shocked. You know, she just would not accept my answer. And so she was.

A (42:15)

She couldn't believe you had turned her down, right?

B (42:16)

Exactly. And she was tough, but she. She was great, too. She was wonderful. And. But she. And so she said, tom, look, we want you to come to Chicago. Just be open enough to come for one meeting and talk to us. So I reluctantly said yes, because there's no saying no to Rachel.

A (42:32)

To Rachel Gola.

B (42:33)

And so I went. I remember flying to Chicago, and I remember walking into their seats, their offices, and stepping into a conference room, and I thought it was going to be Rachel and maybe the gentleman who had called me and myself. But I walked in, and it was this long conference room, and it was filled. There were like, 12, 14 people sitting at the table, and they introduced each person, and it was like, you know, the president of the company, other executives. They had some of the sales team. They had a showroom manager. They had people from the factory. They had a guy who built frames. They had two refinishers.

A (43:06)

They wanted you to meet the entire team who would be working on your exciting new collection.

B (43:10)

Right? So I was like, okay. And then. So they sat me at the head of the. At the end of the table, and they said, so, okay. So I'm thinking, well, they're going to start telling me what they want me to do, like how they see me in their world. And Rachel turned to me and she goes, tom, we're all here because we want to hear what you think we need. And that just knocked me off my chair. I mean, I thought, wow, that wasn't what I was expecting. Yes. And so it was a great conversation. It was very inclusive, and, I mean, everybody participated. And I was really impressed with the dynamic. Very different than what I expected. But I did, again, in caution, what I learned from my youthful lessons. I said, well, you know what? Let me think about this. And I said, let me get back to you. And so that was kind of like, met with a warm hand, like a cool handshake. So I went back to my office, and I contacted Rachel, and I said, I'd love for you to bring a few people to my studio here in D.C. and let's have another talk. So she. I think it was like, two weeks later, and that's all I said. But when she came in, I had. We met in my conference room, and I had done, like, I don't know, 40 sketches, hand sketches of furniture pieces, and I posted them all around the walls. So when they came in, they're, you know, they're looking. They're. They're not realizing this is for them. They think maybe I'm in the middle of a presentation, right? So I introduced them to the sketches, and I said, you know what? This is how I see tradition. This is how I think we could infuse some modern ideas. And they loved the presentation. And I said at the end, I said, well, if you're willing to go this route, I'm willing to try this. They agreed. And it was, again, one of these big, for me, learning curve. I had never been to High Point. I had never done this before. I had a strong vision, but I had no idea how it was going to. How you do it. So we began, and we remember launching. Going to High Point and launching the collection. And the response was incredible. But, you know, seeing how this Theater, this furniture theater works was, you know, it's like I was like, I felt like I was kind of in the way all the time, always moving out of people's way because, you know, I showed up a week before market and it was like my space was a disaster. And I'm like, what are they, what are they doing? Like, who's managing this? And they're all like, ah, this is the way it always is. Don't worry. And so I spent a whole week worrying, you know, but by the end of that week when they opened for market, my space was incredible and product was beautiful. And, you know, we got a, we. We got a lot of buzz from the different editors and it sort of set off what now will be in two years. In 2027, we're going to launch my 25th anniversary collection, which I'm very excited about. And it's going to be based on the same ideas of the first. Because my idea with the collection was not to do a collection every few years and wipe out the history. It was about building this collection throughout the year. So it's going to be great to go back and launch this sort of like new perspective on the same ideals. Right. So I'm very excited about that. But that was great. And that introduced. And they, through Baker, I got introduced to McGuire and it's been very successful relationship both ways.

A (46:38)

We're taking a quick break to remind you about Leloy. It's been quite a year for the design industry. That's why it's more important than ever to have have partners you can trust to help you get the job done. Laloy is known in the design community for its commitment to craft and to its trade partners. Laloy's dedicated personalized sales representatives are here to help for years to come. Learn more@leloyrugs.com that's L O L-O I rugs.com and don't forget to follow Loloy Rugs on Instagram and TikTok. And now back to the show. We always talk about sort of leveling people's expectations around what a licensing collection can really do for you and how much revenue you're really going to see and all of that. Did you have stars in your eyes when it first became such a big hit? Did you think, oh, my life is about to change. I've got this huge furniture collection.

B (47:42)

When I began, my mind wasn't really focused on royalty payments. I mean, I knew that was part of it. That was exciting. But.

A (47:49)

But you weren't really Thoughtful of it.

B (47:51)

Yeah. Because I had no idea. I didn't know if it was gonna, you know, was it gonna work out? Was it a flop? Was this A1? And actually, if somebody said, well, you're gonna be, you know, you're gonna have maybe nine collections and you're gonna be doing this for 25 years, that I would not have believed, right. That I thought. I don't think that's in my future. That doesn't sound like me. But I think one of the things when I talk to students, if I go to, like, a university or a design school, and I say to them, I said, well, you know what? You gotta be really kind of thoughtful. If your goal is to make money, then you have to, like, number one, you have to think about volume. So. And see, I wasn't thinking any of these things, but I lucked into it. Again, this, like, lucky path I walked. You know, they do. They have international dealerships. I mean, I think at the time they had 1,000 distributors globally. And so they did a great volume. But those weren't things that, when I was sitting doing the. I wasn't going, well, what's your volume? What's your sales? What's it, you know. And so financially, it has been very rewarding. And that's great, great for everybody. But that's also based on the. I mean, if your designs are not successful, then you're not making money. But also I say, you know, if that's what you're going for, then you have to really think in terms of companies that really sell volumes of work because your percentage is relatively low to the cost of goods. So you need multiples, right, to make money. But then there's also the point of view of the artistic expression. If you have beautiful ideas, creative ideas, and you want to explore that, and you want to go with a very boutique company or somebody who does sort of gallery presentations that's equally valuable. And if that's what you want, that's beautiful. You may not be selling just because of the price of goods and, you know, and. And exposure. You're not going to sell a thousand cabinets. You might sell three or four. But what is it inside? What do you want out of that? Are you trying to make a statement and fulfill an artistic dream, or are you going for a kill, financial kill? You know, so those are all. It's because it's business. You know, it's like, ultimately, this studio that I work in is a business.

A (50:16)

And thankfully, you have become a much better negotiator and a much Better business.

B (50:21)

Person over the years.

A (50:23)

Yes. And now you have this big opportunity to. And now Baker has new ownership.

B (50:30)

Oh, yeah, right. New ownership, New president.

A (50:33)

Yes. A whole new. Whole new team. And they just came to visit.

B (50:37)

Yes. Or. Yeah. Eric Ram, who's the new president. President who was. You know, I can. I hit it off with him from the jump street. We had a talk about a focus on the Baker legacy. And I said, you know, there's such a value in the past, and the idea of taking the art of craft and exploring it more and kind of getting back to techniques and bringing in artisans to achieve something special as opposed to the trends of, you know, kind of like these modern forms that you can buy at any price point. And, you know, does the world need another curved boucle sofa? I don't think so. Right.

A (51:18)

Thank you.

B (51:19)

Right. So. So, you know, it's kind of like, you know, like when, you know, it's interesting when I talk to friends who have had galleries, antique galleries, for a long time and the trends and sort of the stepping away from antiques. Well, trends are great because they introduce ideas. Right. I think you take what works and you let go what doesn't with trends. But I think that the idea of taking that narrow focus of what's happening in interiors and furniture and opening it up again and making it an inclusive world, from classical to modern to maximal to modern minimal to, you know, whatever, and I think that there's a need in that. And so I'm very excited. And we're talking to some of the artisans at Baker about sort of modern forms, introducing things like chinoiserie and crackle and parchment and, you know, all these different things to elevate the finishes and the vocabulary of the pieces. So. And maybe not doing it, you know, I'm not sharing anything that's secret because we haven't even developed it yet. But I'm having all these ideas about, you know, maybe it's not going to be. You walk in and, you know, here's the living room, here's the dining room, here's the. But really thinking of it as kind of looking back at the successful work pieces of the past and then giving them a new perspective and rethinking them in a way. So I don't know, we're still talking about that, but I'm very excited about the. But, you know, I was thinking, oh, it's 227. That's, you know, that's only 2025. But actually it is 2026 already. And so we have, you know, we were. We were here recently with his team and realizing that we really have like 14 months to design, fabricate, get it ready for shoots, get it. You know, it's like. It's not that long. It's not that far away in our studio. We're really moving. I would say we're really looking to more modern vocabularies and. And we're doing a lot of modern interiors currently. So that's kind of like the headset around here. But I got a call from the State Department, and they have. For people who don't know here in D.C. the State Department, they have a building, and it's like a 70s modern building not far from the Lincoln Memorial. And you get off on the seventh or eighth floor. When you open the door, you think that you've been transported in time because there's this. These two floors, which are all detailed in 18th century English paneling and paint, and the most amazing collection of American antiques I have ever seen. I had never been in. I'd heard of them, but I'd never been in anyway, so they were redoing the Benjamin Franklin room, which is the biggest room, which is where they. If they're having a major event, they do it there. These whole two floors were done in 1985, and other than touch up, a lot of them just have remained the way they were. So it really needed a refresh and so. So different from what I'm doing in my studio, you know. And again, like Blair House, this wasn't an opportunity for Tom Pheasant to come in and design some modern pieces and, you know, do. No, but put his name. Put on his name on. Right, exactly. But so. So I was so intrigued with it. And so I had this idea of looking at. It was all very kind of heavy red and gold, and I had this idea of lightening it up. But I looked to English architect Robert Adam, and he was amazing architect. And just researching him was fantastic. It was worth doing the project. But I was looking. He did these amazing ceiling decorations and wall decorations that were like over the top beautiful. So my first thing was I had. They had this enormous rug. I mean, it's like 100ft long or longer by 50ft wide. So I had this. I took my cues from Robert Adam and I created the design for this rug. And within the rug I punctuated with symbols that reflected some of the achievements of Benjamin Franklin, because it was a Benjamin Franklin room and created a fresh look for this space. So I presented it to the committee and I won everybody over very Quickly. So that was great. But it was such a great experience. And, you know, having that opportunity to mentally get out of my studio and look at something, and it wasn't so much. It wasn't about Tom Theasant furniture or, you know, somebody. Nobody's gonna go in there and see a photograph of the room and go, oh, Tom Pheasant did this. But Tom Pheasant is there. Yes. It is my perspective, and it's how I. How I look at 18th century style and digest it and present it in a new way, which is how I, you know, I describe inspiration. You know, it's a very misused word. I say to people, if you go to an antique store and you copy a chair, you're not being inspired. You're making a copy, and that's fine. But if you see an antique chair and you walk away and there's something about that chair that really strikes a chord, and you sit down and you, through your own digestion of that chair experience, you create a new form, that's inspiration. That's being inspired. And replication is replication. There's nothing wrong with it, but inspiration is a very. Is kind of this, like, heavenly thing that if you can tap into, it's really a brilliant resource.

A (57:06)

Was this prior to you developing a rug collection? Because that's something else that you've done with Ben Salmani?

B (57:12)

No, that's relatively new. And Ben is such a fantastic human being. And I met him decades ago. We were doing a project in Los Angeles, and he and his brother had this great place on Melrose Carpets, and I used them as a resource. And through the years, Ben is. You know, when we would run into each other or he would reach out to me, I would love for you to do a collection for me. And I would go, yeah, yeah, yeah, that would be great. And I meant it. But it was never. I don't know, it was like the timing just never clicked. And then last year, he reached out to me once again, and I just decided, you know, I got to do this. And so I said, well, you know, there was a semi sort of thing. Let me put some things on paper. And because his life is carpets and rugs and more, he's involved in many aspects of design, but I thought he sees everything. So it's like, again, you get down to, okay, does the world need another one of these? I mean, and that's kind of a good way when you're doing a collection is like, okay. The trick is, you know, when I'm working here creatively, if I'M designing a rug or a piece of furniture in my suit for a client. I know the place, I know the people. I know what it needs to be so I can design a unique thing for that situation. When you're designing a collection, a commercial collection, you're designing for a broad audience, for people you don't know, for interiors you're never going to see, Right? The reality is you want saleability. That's why the company is engaging you. They just don't want beautiful things. They want things that are going to appeal to a big group. Okay, so now they have to appeal to a big group, but they also have to be unique enough that your voice is being raised amongst the crowd. I mean, we're getting hit up daily with new product. You go to market is twice a year. You know, it's sort of like, what's new? What's next? And people, including my editor friends, you know, it's like, while this happened to me when I was showing, launching my McGuire collection in 2022, I think, and I was talking to an editor, and we hadn't even gotten through my space, and she started asking me, well, so what's next? And I literally said what? I said, can we just get through this? And, you know, but really. But that's our culture. It's like, you know, you flip the page and it's like, you know, you got two seconds and you're either going to make your point or not. So, you know, I think the challenge in any collection is that ability to project your voice and project it loud enough that you're going to be heard. And that's not easy. I mean, it's not hard to create something beautiful, but it's hard to create something beautiful that has that kind of power. So that's kind of the key. So, so, so with going back to Ben, so I, you know, he's such a sweet man, and. And so I presented him with my ideas and it was like, okay, that's great. Let's do it. And, you know, the next thing I know, I'm getting the, you know, he's. I'm picking colors and he's sending me samples. And, like, it was a really quick turnaround time. So. And then we, last month we did a soft opening in his gallery in New York. And the carpets are beautiful. And, you know, part of the test is, would I use it in my interior? You know, and so that's kind of my cutoff. If I wouldn't use it, then I'm not going to put it out. There, you know, I think that whole subject of licensing is such a big. I mean, that's like a week seminar that I would love to have with a group of peers talking about product and development, because I think it's a fascinating world.

A (60:52)

It is a fascinating world. And for many, it becomes almost a business unto itself. I think of Suzanne Kastler, right, Who just has all of this product and has. Has a whole separate team that's working on all of that and nurturing it. And then she goes to High Point and puts on the show, as you.

B (61:12)

Say, and she's great at it. And that gets. And that gets. Speaks also to the branding. I mean, you can. You know how I'm. I'm pretty, you know, in our industry as long as I've been here, but I'm the most private person. But I see people like Suzanne, who's wonderful. She's a lovely person and a wonderful designer. She is a brand. I mean, it's like she's. She's everywhere. And that's fantastic. And that's another design choice. Like, what do you want to be? If you're lucky enough to be a Suzanne Kassler or somebody like her who does it? That's fantastic. But when I talk about longevity is finding that balance, that, okay, this is what I'm going to do, and I'm going to do this for a long time, because I love it. You got to really love that. And it can be, you know, Suzanne's gonna go on forever, I hope. I mean, she's, you know, as long as she's enjoying it and her, you know, she's balancing her life and she. That's what counts. So I've had so much opportunities that I. That. And I've experienced so many different aspects. I've kind of found what I want for me right now, and I don't want to disappear, but I also want to be private, and I want to have life outside my studio. So it's, you know, we all ask a lot out of our world.

A (62:29)

Well, and that's. And I know we're running out of. But I mean, this question of longevity, because many struggle with. And often firms don't go on forever more. Right. For lots of different reasons.

B (62:45)

Well, I think the business of design is tough, right? People don't talk about that so much, but regardless of how successful you are in the public, with your magazine articles and licensing agreements, I think the problems that I have or the issues that I have are the same issues. Some independent designer who works in a relatively small world is having. And we're not going to even get into the idea of that. When we do a project, we're relying on a thousand vendors to show up and deliver things that are out of our control. So I think when we talk about the actual business design, it's a full time job. The creative, if you're lucky to spend 10% of your day creatively, I think you're doing really well.

A (63:33)

And that's the very challenge that so many aren't prepared for. When that. Right. You think you're just going to be doing so much design.

B (63:40)

Right. And that's another, you know, if I can, you know, when I advise other like young people or designers who have worked for me and gone out on their own, you know, one of the things that we talk about is the first thing they go, I had no idea because here they're kind of sheltered a bit because they don't have the same responsibility. But that whole idea of understanding what you want and being able to juggle the business aspect but finding time for yourself creatively. So when we were talking earlier about Paris, Paris is my shot of adrenaline. Right. And so with longevity, I think if you're just stuck in the business, you will get burnout. Like any business. Like there's a point where you're going, okay, I'm done. But if you have a creative soul and you want to, you've got to nurture that because you're the only one who will. Nobody's going to tell you. A client is not going to tell you, Tom, you should go away for a couple weeks. You know, that's not what they're interested in. But I think you have to find that way of making time for your creative self and explore new things and push yourself. If you can do that, then you kind of creating this incredible path and all of the business part and dealing with the realities of getting your design out there, that's just part of it. But you're kind of floating on this excitement, right? Creative excitement. And you have to find it well.

A (65:03)

And so often, and I think this is more challenging today than it ever was. Finding the balance of the right number of people in your studio and managing and developing your team. I don't know how big your studio is these days. If you found some magic number of staffers that have worked for you.

B (65:25)

So we're about 12 here now. We were up to 18 at one point. And what happened was I was saying yes to all these projects that were coming. We needed more people. But what I did, I didn't plan was that it was just I was dividing myself into all of the, you know, because we're. I'm involved in every project and you have to keep taking projects to pay for your overhead to have. So it's kind of like a hamster wheel. And there was one point, well, it was really pre pandemic that, that I was like, you know, this is like burning me out. I mean, it's just not sustainable. So we kind of got down to a really great number. It's always tempting because, you know, sometimes projects, you know, what you can take in, something really wonderful will come up and you got to really think, okay, what it will. Okay, I want to do this. What does this mean? And okay, what am I going to give up to take on this project? But those are just lessons learned. And, you know, you can explain it to somebody, but once you. The proof is in doing it and you kind of have to see what you're up for. But I do think the burnout idea and nurturing yourself, it doesn't matter who you are creatively. You need to find that outlet and you need to support that part of you because nobody else is going to do that.

A (66:44)

I know I have to let you go, but I mentioned your book earlier and I want to talk about it. I think it's coming out in 2027. But you're no doubt knee deep in working on it, at least. I want to tell Charles Myers you're working on it.

B (66:56)

Well, he'll be happy to hear that.

A (67:00)

But I'm wondering. A Designer's Journey. I gather the title. So tell me.

B (67:05)

I had a lot of success with Simply Serene and I'm very proud of that book. So they've been after me. Rizzoli's been after me for a while about doing a simply serene 2. And as part of my personal growth, I said to them, well, you know, yeah, I know I could do that, but you've got so many wonderful interior design books. I said, I'd love to. Like, I had this idea for a book called Reflection and it is design based, but it's using my personal photography outside in the world and how that stimulates my creative process. And, you know, it's. Well, originally I told him, I said, there's no text. Well, that didn't go for big.

A (67:44)

What was the look on his face when you told him?

B (67:45)

Well, I thought that would get me out of writing, but that was a negotiating thing. But, you know, so. And we've been talking. We talked about it for two years. And so we Decided I was going to put a couple chapters together and share it with Rizzoli. And I said, if you are in, I'm in. If this isn't right for you, I understand. So we had a great meeting, and I shared it, and Charles was so positive and excited about the book. So it is. There are my interiors who are featured in the book, but more as this is how I got there. Right. So I would say the ball. It's relatively large book. I hope I'm still working on it, but my due dates are coming up, and so hopefully we're aiming for either spring or fall of 2027. But again, it's sort of me sharing. I call it reflection for a lot of reasons, but it is me talking about this whole concept of feeding your creative soul and getting out of your studio. And I think any creative person, whether they connect to my work or not, will understand what this book is about.

A (68:54)

I wonder. And of course, I can understand why he's so eager to have you do another version, because your look, and it sounds like you feel this way even about the collection that you created for Baker. And so much of your work does seem timeless. And I don't know if. Because so much of it is just white interiors and if that helps. But, like, what have you discovered? Is the key to that the longevity of your.

B (69:20)

Of your work?

A (69:21)

That doesn't look dated.

B (69:22)

Well, it's not the white. Okay, just real quick. So I remember, you know, it's like the thing with interior designers is we all get paid, you know, even Paige rents was, you know, she put me in this sort of like, oh, he does neutral classical with a modern touch interior. And so that was my box. Really. That's really what she wanted. And, like. And what was kind of beautiful about the magazine is, you know, you recognize the designers, like, you know what they do, and you see it through, you know, which, you know, it's great. But, you know, there's a lot more to it than that. And, you know, we. We do work with color and.

A (69:57)

I'm teasing you.

B (69:57)

I know you are. I know you are. But I explain this constantly. I think it's my own insecurity. I don't know, but I'm more than that. I'm more than that. So, no, I think it's about, I think, you know, I think having this classical foundation and creating these spaces that are based in that classical vocabulary that are timeless. That's the timeless part. If a person collects modern art or traditional landscapes, to me, that's their personal. What they Love. And I always say that our spaces should be beautiful before the first piece of furniture enters the building. The spaces should fulfill a beautiful idea, right? And that regardless of what color the sofa is, what the artwork is, that we are creating these incredible backgrounds that will have longevity. And I think that point of view has served me really well and have served my clients really well. It's amazing. I posted something on Instagram a few weeks ago that was something that I had done 25 years ago. And I didn't say that. I just posted it. And I got such an incredible response to the room. Everybody assumed it was new, and it was just those elements. I'm still using this perspective and these elements, these classical lessons in what I do now, whether it's modern or traditional. People, like, when I travel, they go, oh, you gotta stay in this place. Cause it looks like you did it. Well, you know, quite honestly, that's like the last place I wanna stay is somebody who does what I do. I was in Madrid for a family wedding earlier in the year, and by fortune, nobody recommended it. And it was by happenstance, I stayed at this wonderful hotel, the Santo model. And it's this beautiful. It was once a private residence. And this Lorenzo Castillo is the designer. And he's very sort of maximalist in a way, with his decoration and lots of colors and lots of details. And he's like a master at it. I hated leaving. It was like he was giving me, here, Tom, here's a little lesson in decoration. Not that I left Madrid and started to, like, implement his skill, but I began to understand his perspective. And that perspective is really unique and beautiful, and it has informed some of my decisions since then. But that's, again, you know, it gets back to that. Getting out of my studio, but also experiencing designers. You know, are you. When you're looking at these magazines and you're seeing somebody whose work is so different, do you take the time to kind of, like, invest into understanding what are they doing? How did they come up with this? And, you know, it's kind of, you know, it's that time that people don't seem to have. Have any of, and that. That quick look. And when you think people, you know, invest years in a. In a project and it's just a flip of a page, but there's so much that you can learn. So I try to, you know, I think traveling, going to Japan or Egypt or wherever I've been recently, that was, you know, otherworldly. I don't know how it's going to inform me But I know it is, and I know it's going to come out right. So it's all about that nurturing.

A (73:16)

So if we see you moving towards maximalism, we'll know that this is Madrid.

B (73:22)

No, I think it's time to lock the door. I don't think. I'm not going to take that on.

A (73:27)

I would be very worried, frankly, if that's what I started to see.

B (73:31)

I'm honing my own voice here, but that doesn't mean that I'm not receiving instruction from some really fantastic people through their own voices. And I think that's important.

A (73:43)

As I say, there's so much more that I would love to talk to you about. I'm going to have to bring you to the New York School of Interior Design.

B (73:48)

Oh, I would love that. I would love that.

A (73:49)

Okay, so we'll talk in front of students one day and we'll talk more because I would love that. And I know you have a lot more to share, but for now, thank you so much for your time and it's been such an incredible pleasure to speak with you.

B (74:04)

Thank you, Dennis. Thank you so much.

A (74:09)

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line@podcastusinessofhome.com if you if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. This show was produced by Fred Nicholas and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.