A (5:06)

Well, and I wonder to that point, Wendy, I think so often when one has this conversation, there's an implied criticism of today's world moving too quickly and people being elevated without having all of the experience. But I wonder, turning that around, did we make so many brilliantly talented people wait too long? Did you have to be an assistant for far too long before you were exposed to the role that you would so fully blossom into and the authority that you would eventually bring?

B (5:45)

Well, that's a really interesting question. I think the answer for me is no. I think that what I learned and when I was an assistant to brilliant people, I learned, and I really wasn't ready, probably. But I think timing is so important in one's career as well. So I think it all worked out. The timing was right. And I think the thing about the timing is when you're offered something and you're scared of it. Like, I was scared of many of the. Well, maybe all of the opportunities I was given. But I knew I had to say yes. And I knew I had to challenge myself and overcome the fear of failing. You know, the problems and the mistakes are part of the job. That is the work. It's not outside of the work. It is the work. Problem solving is part of the work. And it's a really big part of the work.

A (6:40)

Yes. Yes. It's so true. So let's tell people a little bit about the many different steps along your career path and the remarkable people that you were assistants and working with over your career. For those who. Who might not be familiar. And I would encourage people. So Wendy and I had a fun conversation in person. Pre Covid. I was reminded this weekend we were at an opening of a new Upper west side furniture location. And we had had a fun conversation where we went through some of Wendy's career. And it's sort of remarkable to look back at that period of time and what we were imagining the world was gonna be like. And I wanna get into some of that because so much that we thought would stick around after that time is sort of fallen away. But let's talk about the early days for Wendy Goodman.

B (7:36)

Well, the early days for Wendy Goodman. I really did not see a career in magazines. I had this kind of romantic idea, which I studied very hard for, was to be an actor and to be in the theater. And so I went to NYU School of the Arts. And I studied again with extraordinary talent. Olympia decocus, James Earl Jones directed a play I was in. But I got out of NYU after all this study. I studied with Stella Adler at one point, and I started the process, and I realized that I was also busing tables. I was, you know, doing what actors do. And I thought, you know, I really want to work. I don't want to be told by people auditioning for them, you're not right. You're not this, you're not that. And I thought, no, I. I thought, I really want to work. So I took a job at Harper's Bazaar. And the job was through a friend of mine, Alan Morgan, who called me, who was working there and said, there's an assistant position that just came available. Do you want to come and interview with Carrie Donovan, who people listening to this may not know in fantastic fashion personality and editor. She hired me, and I worked for Anna Wintour, who had just Come to the United States from London.

A (8:50)

Yes.

B (8:51)

It was her first job. She was a fashion editor at Harper's Bazaar. I was her assistant. And then June Canai came into Harper's Bazaar, who is just extraordinary. Networks was Issey Miyake's right hand after she left Bazaar. Anyway, I worked for both of them, packing suitcases, getting coffee for the models, ironing the clothes, and putting out all the accessories. And you know what I learned from Anna, who was extraordinary, who really was the same personality that she is today? I mean, she was so focused at that point. She was, you know, she'd just come here. She was in a completely new environment, but she knew what she wanted to do and how she wanted to do it. And I thought, gosh, I'm really not like that. She's so amazing that she has such a strong sense of purpose. And I was kind of, you know, I didn't have any inkling that a. I would become a fashion editor first, a stylist. But the world of this magazine was wonderful to me because of the. Again, the collaboration. I loved working with people, learning from them and having fun. It was pre Internet. We were using the phone to book models. I had a big board with a pencil erasing and re erasing. So and so's available. No, she's not. So I think it's hard for this generation to understand. No Internet. Oh, my God. It was person to person is what it was.

A (10:28)

Yes.

B (10:28)

And that was a joy for me.

A (10:31)

And so that was a joy for you, even though you've often described yourself as not being one who sort of jumps in and is courageous in that way. But you obviously had to get really good at calling and reaching out to people and trying to get ahold of people, and so a skill set all its own.

B (10:49)

Yeah. I mean, I had to go outside my comfort zone. And I think for anyone, you know, in a career learning the ropes, that's, you know, unless you're Anna Wintour. She didn't seem to have that issue. Her comfort zone was, I'm in control and I'm an authority. And that's that which I really admired. And I thought, wow. But I did become very much more courageous because I was so interested in what I was doing, and I had so much passion to learn and be curious and. And when I started doing fashion stories myself, I just thought, I'm gonna do it in a way that interests me and hopefully will interest the readers. I'm making stories, you know, I'm casting models as characters. I'm dressing them as Characters. And I'm hoping that they will want to know what happened in this story after the photograph was taken, before the photograph was taken. So sometimes I did do studio shoots where the model was just on no scene. But a lot of the time it was storytelling, which I think is the key for me for so much of my work, even now.

A (11:56)

Was that a thread throughout your young life, storytelling? Were you writing? Were you creating things? Were you sharing things with your siblings and your family that were stories you created?

B (12:08)

I think yes. I mean, we came from a family of both our parents were artists. And even though my father was a surgeon, but he was also an incredible artist. My mother was an artist. And I was always interested really from a young age about people's houses. You know, when we'd go, when our parents would take us to grown up parties, I was always really intrigued and kind of obsessed by how people were living, how beautiful these apartments were, how odd they were or whatever it was. And that kind of, you know, I just remember being very young and going in our bookshelf and finding this one book, the Art and Technique of Color Photography, a Conde Ness book, very early color book, and just being mesmerized by these beautiful photographs. And I look back on that, there were two photographs. One was a fashion photograph and one was an interior photograph. And that's kind of been my career, both of those things.

A (13:12)

Well, exactly. And you were so early to going inside famous fashion figures homes and saying, will you, may I come in? Which is the title of your book that you would later do. But in the early days, you were trying to convince fashion luminaries to share the interior side of their life, which was often just as rich and colorful and textured as what we saw on the Runway.

B (13:39)

Well, exactly. And when I started at House and Garden the first time Nancy Novograd was the editor in chief, I had come from fashion, being a fashion editor, and I think my title was style editor. And I literally remember sitting in my when I got there and I thought, oh my God, what am I going to do? I don't know what to do because there were a lot of editors there doing wonderful stories. So I thought, well, I guess I should do what I know. I know fashion designers, so maybe I just will ask them, may I come in, may I Photograph. And the first one was Jeffrey Bean. And he said yes. And when I discovered his house in Oyster Bay, he had fabrics on his furniture that he used for. For his fashion collections. And I thought, ah, this is really cool. And this is something I wasn't aware of. And so in going further and further into that world, you know, discovering all sorts of fantastic things.

A (14:39)

Yeah. And discovering often, often the interiors reveals so much more about the character of the. Of the person. You get sort of a rich depth of who this person really is. You. You see what they create in the fashion world, but knowing the limitations of what they have to do there. Often you. You get a much better sense when you see how they're. How they're living privately.

B (15:03)

Well, my hunch was that what you'd see in the fashion collections was just spinning, weaving part of the story of what you'd find at home, because the story at home was really a little piece of their biography or their autobiography. And, you know, you'd see what they cared about, what they collected, what inspired perhaps that collection. So it was a very, very rich place to be.

A (15:29)

So you mentioned coming back to House and Garden. For you were there more than once.

B (15:34)

Yes.

A (15:34)

As was the case in so many of the places that you worked over the years, you'd leave and come back. Sadly, House and Garden doesn't pull through. And so tell us about that time.

B (15:47)

Well, it was a really, really. It was an amazing time because I was at New York Magazine. Adam Moss had just come in as the editor, and I was just sort of learning what he wanted, how he worked. And just at that time, I was offered this amazing job again at House and Garden with Dominique Browning, who I just thought was wonderful. So I thought, well, you know, it was a very, very, shall we say, attractive offer. And I thought, well, that's what I'm supposed to do, I guess I'm supposed to do, you know, keep going and keep going up and keep making more money and. But in my heart and soul, I was like, oh, I hate leaving this job I love so much. Anyway, I did leave it, and I went to House and Garden, and it was really challenging because as I. We were not in the mothership. We were in a building that was not on Times Square. And I thought, if you're not on the mothership, that's not good. That was my first sort of little red flag. And also, you know, there were a lot of stories when I arrived there at New York Magazine. The economy is. You shoot a story, it runs. You don't have the luxury of banking stuff and then killing it.

A (17:00)

You don't.

B (17:01)

And then I got to House and Garden, and the nature of a shelter magazine is there are a lot of stories in that drawer. And so I thought, oh, okay, this is a challenge, because those stories need to run, but maybe they won't run. And then we're shooting war stories, so it's all of that. And then. Then they closed House and Garden again after eight months. I was there eight months.

A (17:23)

Eight months.

B (17:24)

Eight months. And I. You know, I was. I just was sort of dumbstruck. I thought, I've left the job I love, and now I don't have a job. But it was a divine intervention, because the day that they closed House and Gordon again, I had a little red blinking light on my landline, which was message. And it was Adam Moss saying, would you like to come back and talk to me? And I thought if I could have gotten on my knees in my office and prayed to God that he was gonna offer me my job back, which he did. You know, it was a miracle moment for me. It was. And I went back.

A (18:03)

And by that time. Because of the experience that you'd had multiple times with House and Garden and everything else that you had done before, did you have a clear sense of what you wanted to do at New York magazine, the kind of editorial coverage that you wanted to do?

B (18:19)

Yes, I understood very quickly that New York Magazine was not a shelter magazine. I could not offer people a cover. Well, I did eventually, because we did two special issues, design issues a year, and there were covers. But I thought really, New York Magazine, and especially how Adam was positioning and what he was doing, it's storytelling. My job as the design editor was to tell stories of people in the city, how they lived, why they lived like that. And that didn't always involve a decorator. It involved doing it yourself in a very creative and smart way. So it was more about storytelling. Every space that we showed had to tell a story of the person who lived there, and it would reveal their passions, their collections, their, you know, where they came from, why they landed there. And so I knew that that was sort of off the beaten track. So, you know, a lot of subway riding, which I still do, to find places to really investigate, you know, off the beaten track places. And people.

A (19:24)

Well, and as you say, often people who didn't have a decorator, often people who have, shall we say, eccentric apartments. And you were mentioning earlier about collections. Often people who have fascinating collections and people who also seem to have lived in a space for a really long time and settled in. Which is. Which is such a fun New York thing, that people sort of settle into their apartments for decades at a time.

B (19:51)

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I think that there's so many challenges about living in New York. There's an Economic challenge and there's a space challenge. So how people have sort of, you know, burrowed in and what they've done and what they haven't done is so interesting. And then, you know, there are the occasional, I think a lot of desires. Designers, you know, tend towards Shelter magazines for various reasons, even though I'm so hoping that some of them who are so brilliant and wonderful will show their, you know, show off their amazing projects with us. But it should be a whole grab bag for the reader. They should open the magazine every issue and go, oh, that's different because it's entertainment. But it also should be educating them in some kind of way that they learned some.

A (20:41)

Well, interesting that you say that you hope that designers will be willing to come and show off, because I've spoken to so many designers who credit you as one of the first people to publish their work or to get to know them and show off some of what they're doing. And it seems as if you've always been able to detect upcoming interesting talent well before we've really heard of them and seen them on the pages of Shelter magazines later on.

B (21:10)

Well, I think that's one of the really exciting aspects of my job is to be so, so curious and want to bring people to the fore. And, you know, you see a young designer or designer who's just starting and you go, that person just has it. And you know, as with any talent, sort of Starburst, you just have a sense that the work is so strong and so original and so good that you think this is a rising star. You just, you feel it, you know, you feel it when you go see a performance that you watch one person and you go, oh my God, that is so exciting. You know, you're watching real talent in action.

A (21:54)

We're taking a quick break to remind you about Ernesta. Designers know that proportions make all the difference. And that difference starts with. With Ernesta. Find a custom size rug that elevates your vision. When you join Ernesta's trade program, you'll receive dedicated one on one support, preferred pricing, and unlimited samples curated for your project. To apply for membership to Ernesta's trade program or to learn more, visit ernesta.com boh and now back to the show. I mentioned earlier that you and I last spoke publicly prior to Covid. And then Covid comes and has a massive outsized impact on New York City. And there was so much that we thought would never be the same again. And then within moments, it all did fall back to feeling routine again. Very Quickly. And things we thought in design that would change, they didn't really. I mean, what, if anything, can you point to or do you feel has had a meaningful impact as a result of that crazy period in all of our lives?

B (23:15)

It is so interesting what you say because, you know, I remember the despair I felt like nothing will ever be the same. I will be locked in my apartment forever. I felt a kind of something I'd never experienced before. Not after 9, 11, not after anything. And what's interesting that you bring up is our ability to process and go forward. So actually, we have recovered. We've recovered. It's a little different, I think, but I think our ability. It's like the body is a healing machine. If you get sick, if you. I mean, mostly it is. And I think our. Also our urge to keep creating, keep making, keep. Keep producing, that is an urge that is with us also. And so you just saw things sort of bloom again, come back to life. People, yes, took a great. You know, people were stuck in their apartments. But I think that people are always interested in home. It is the only place they can control in their life. They can put what they want in it. They may not have the money to do exactly what they want, but it is their own own little, little nest.

A (24:31)

Stylistically, did we change anything as the result of COVID We. Many of us became much more familiar with our home than we had been. Right. So. So I. I quickly discovered in interviewing people during that time, they had no idea how their oven worked because they were never home. Right. And they had this elaborate range in their kitchen that they didn't even know how to navigate. And it was fascinating to see them rediscover, in many cases, their home. But I wonder, did people make sweeping changes? And we've been in this sort of lag period for the last several years in the housing market and in the furniture and home world, waiting for people to come out again and want to replace everything that they, I guess, replaced during COVID

B (25:21)

I think people sort of made a checklist, perhaps, and thought, you know, I don't need to live with so much stuff. It's sort of like. It's sort of like smothering me. I don't need all of this. So I think there was a checklist in the sort of recalibrating of what do I need? What really makes me happy. So, yeah. And I think also people were very, you know, they're still cautious about. I've got to sort of be careful, because who knows what we're going to have next. I mean, we're in a period of great, great turmoil and great sort of, you know, we really don't know. So I think people are cautious. They're kind of making do with what they have, perhaps what they did invest in during COVID and they're going, well, I can live with this. Maybe I won't change the sofa. I'll just get new upholstering. So there are adjustments to it all.

A (26:17)

It's interesting because we were told for a time that people were neutralizing their spaces with the thought of resale in mind. And so you saw less personalization. You saw less of who people might really be. And there's a sense that maybe people are coming out of that and willing to show more personality and willing to, hey, I may be here for some time. I want this to be me. Is that what you're feeling as well?

B (26:49)

Totally. And also, what always makes me laugh is that when I go scout things and it's a rental, people treat a rental like it's their own home and they own it. They will do painting, they will do, you know, sort of architectural adjustments. And it's like, no, because I'm going to live here. While I live here, I want it to feel like me. But also, I think they realize that their landlords are really happy to have them do that work because it does usually really enhance the value of the property. And so I think people have more of a sort of devil may care feeling on the other end of that. They go, well, I'm gonna be here for this amount of time, and while I'm here, let's make hay while the sun shines.

A (27:30)

You mentioned this period of unease that we're in, and part of that unease seems to be how rapidly things seem to be changing. We're seeing technology whether we want to face it or whether we want interact with it or not. It is clearly here and making huge changes to our work lives. The media world is changing so quickly. How you and I are supposed to be talking about things or covering things, it's all moving very quickly. And I wonder how that is showing up for you.

B (28:14)

Well, it's showing up for me in just the challenges of technology, quite honestly, because, you know, I grew up where things were not changing that rapidly. I mean, when a fax machine came into the office, that was like a big deal. But, you know, it wasn't that. A fax machine came in Monday, and then Tuesday there was like some kind of weird robot that was doing something in the office. It just was There took time. You had time to adjust, and now you have no time to adjust. It's like, oh, just learn this now. So technology is challenging for me in how fast everything's going, but also, I think that we, you know, the way that we have to sort of turn on a dime with things is something that is unnerving for everyone, but it's something that we have to get used to because, you know, the landscape, the work landscape changes so quickly. And, you know, I knock on wood as I say that because we still have a magazine. We're really lucky, and incredible leadership with David Haskell and the whole team. And I'm always waiting for the shoe to drop, the other shoe to drop. You know, it's sort of this anticipation of, you're really lucky right today, but what about tomorrow? And then I think we'll just stay in the present. Just do your very best, you know, going ahead with what you can do and what you do do, and. But it's a juggling act. You know, it's a mental juggling act because we're so aware of everything that's going on outside of what we're doing.

A (29:50)

Exactly. I mean, it is. It's funny that you mentioned the fax machines, and today we think about the speed with which things are changing. And I still remember when the fax machine jumped from thermal paper to plain paper. And that was years in the making, but felt like such a huge innovation in and of itself.

B (30:07)

Right. And I was sitting at a fashion show, I'll just say, and the cell phone had just come, and I was sitting at a fashion show, and Anna Winter was across the aisle or the Runway, and all of a sudden, she pulled out of her bag this ginormous, which looked like a loaf of bread, and it was a cell phone. And then she pulled up the antenna, and I thought, oh, my God, Anna has the first cell phone. Of course she would. But it was the size of, like, you know, a big loaf of bread.

A (30:33)

Yes. Well, and I want to talk about Anna Wintour and poor Chloe, who had to do that interview with Anna, sitting there and looking disapproving a little bit. Did you get that sense?

B (30:49)

I mean, you know, I think what was interesting about that interview was Anna is not a warm and fuzzy person. Never has been, never will be. And Chloe held her own so beautifully. And also, Chloe, she knows who she's working with. She. And she knows. I mean, I think that interview was painful because of, quite frankly, Anna's body language. I mean, you know, she just wanted to Say, I don't know what Anna really wanted to say, to tell you the truth, but I think the differences in. What I've really been interested in is the way that my bosses lead people and how they deal with power. And I've really always been, you know, some of them have been really difficult to work for because they're very tough and they're not nurturing and they never approve of anything. And some of them are just wonderful, and they don't necessarily give you the approval, but you know that they're sort of working with you. So I think Anna is someone who. She's a very impatient person if you're not really seeing what she wants. And I think Chloe held her own beautifully. And I think, you know, it's a complicated situation for her and for Anna as well, because there's, again, Conde Nast is such a sort of epic beacon in this industry and Vogue especially. And, you know, so how do you hold the line with what, you know, with the tradition of what a publication is and then bringing it forward into the future? So you're always sort of playing that boundary, and it's a. A really tough one, honestly. And I think, you know, nobody really knows. I would imagine maybe I'm wrong, that they really do know what's going to happen in the future and where to take this, you know?

A (32:42)

Yeah, no, I think. And I'm sure I don't need to explain for our listeners, because I'll bet they've all seen this interview. But Chloe Maul, who has taken over at Vogue, and there's always. There has long been this succession question. Is this really Anna Wintour stepping away? And I think that many feel that that video made it clear that, no, she's not stepping away anytime soon.

B (33:09)

Well, I said before the video before, when Chloe, I said to myself, I said, anna will never step away. This is Anna's identity. It's Conde Nast's identity. It's Vogue's identity. And also, Ana is just too. She does not want to step away. But what she does want is someone to help her, I think, with the content. And also, she's doing so many things outside of Vogue, you know, the Met Gala, for instance, and all this other stuff. So I think, you know, I didn't need that video to see what I already really felt was the situation that Anna was never stepping away from Vogue, ever.

A (33:53)

Well, it's so interesting because. And I was having a conversation recently about Paige Rents and her long reign at Architectural Digest and what a huge part of the culture Architectural Digest became as a result of her long term role and the designers whom she elevated and the talent that the country learned about as a result. But also some of what we're writing about the AD100 list coming into being in the early 1990s and how much that changed. Oh, how do we point out who's important and who should you be paying attention to? And lots of other lists came along as well, and they seem to have played a big role in things. Do you think that that was a pivotal time when all of those lists came into being? And do you think that Paige Rentz's role is not dissimilar in a way to Anna Wintour's in the home world?

B (35:00)

Yes, I think that's a really good comparison. But note, when Paige left, she left. Paige did not sort of stick around and go, oh, I'm gonna get a content officer to.

A (35:13)

She didn't start a blog when she left?

B (35:16)

No. She gave up the throne and she passed the torch. And her reign was incredible because it was a reign. I mean, she elevated people. But remember, she had rules and you had to follow them. And one of the rules was, if you want to be in my magazine, you pay for the shoot, you pay for the flowers, you pay for every everything. That's really a tough one. And I think, you know, fashion is very, very different because, you know, interiors and design, and especially back when Paige was running the show, it was a slower, more gentle time in the sense of change. Right. And fashion changes every 15 seconds. I mean, I honestly have no idea who the design. When I look online and I see on Instagram all the these shows, I have no idea who. There's so many designers now, and it's like, if I went out into the street with a leopard bikini, I'd be a designer. Maybe because I just decided I was. I don't know. It's just such a. The fashion world I love. I think the invention of it and the talent is so incredible. But I have to say, I can't even pretend to understand what's going on in it anymore. I just. I don't.

A (36:33)

Yeah, well, you let me know when you're going out in the leopard bikini.

B (36:38)

Oh, yeah. Like, never. Okay. That will never happen.

A (36:42)

I look forward to that photo shoot. So we were talking earlier, Wendy, and this is related to designers and how they have to come at the World today. We were talking earlier about your early acting career and studying under Stella Adler, which I know you've shared with me in the past, was challenging. And she was Very demanding. But there's a bit of an expectation today that designers need to become actors and performers and get in front of the camera. Their work is not enough today, and that we don't want to see just these still images on Instagram. Everyone is much more fascinated and keen to see them speak to us and entertain us in some way. What do you make of all that?

B (37:35)

Well, that's so interesting. Such a good point, because I think, again, with social media, people need to brand themselves. You know, the work isn't enough. It's like, who are you as a personality? What extra ziz do you bring to the table? And I think the person that comes to mind is Peter Marino. Because when Peter started his career, sort of, I think the same time I was kind of starting mine, he was in a bow tie, he was in a tweed jacket. He was, you know, he was a preppy guy.

A (38:05)

Yes.

B (38:07)

And then I remember we did. I convinced him. I think it was one of our special issues. I said, can. Can we come in New York magazine and photograph you, do a portrait of you in one of your favorite rooms? So we came, and Peter comes out in black leather pants. He had a cashmere sweater on, and he had his little gorgeous dog under his arm. But I said, oh, my God, he's wearing leather pants. Are you kidding me? Something major is happening here because it was such a change from this preppy. But little did I know how far that character that he discovered within himself, that he, you know, Peter is a brilliant designer, architect, but he's also a master sort of actor because he said publicly that this Persona is a Persona that belongs to him and is one of the Personas. And so people are riveted, fascinated. And he understood the game way before, I think, anybody else and has gone to extremes with it just in, you know, And I think other designers may feel, well, they're not going to go to those lengths, but, you know, they might have. They're going to talk, you know, a live Instagram, and they're going to talk on a show that they've seen. And so there is this added pressure to be more than just your work.

A (39:39)

Yes. And I think. Exactly. I think there's an expectation that you're going to let us in in some way, right?

B (39:48)

Yes.

A (39:48)

And that you're going to have a lot more to say than simply, this is why I chose this color blue. And that is what I think is in many ways most challenging. That there is this expectation of a greater depth or some performative ability that many people just don't feel at all comfortable with. And I get it.

B (40:12)

I get it too. And also this anecdotal, like, you know, compulsion to be anecdotal and to give us the inner workings of. Well, sometimes it's just they really like stripes. Sometimes they really just always wanted to live in a pink room. I mean, it's just that deep. Okay.

A (40:29)

Yes.

B (40:29)

You know, we don't have any sort of psychological story more than that. And I think that, you know, this can lead to, if you feel the pressure to keep inventing, I don't know, sort of stories, they may seem ridiculous at the end of the day because you just have to be authentic to yourself. You have to really dig down and say, this is who I am. This is what I love. And you know, if you're really true to yourself, I think people will be interested because people love the stories of other people, but they really can smell out if those stories are just made up and they're ridiculous.

A (41:12)

We're taking a quick break to remind you about Sixpenny. Imagine for just a moment having a state of the art furniture brand as your very own bespoke manufacturer. Imagine the look your clients will give you when they realize you really mean custom, when you tell them their unique specs won't be a problem. Sixpenny is more than just a luxury furniture brand. They're a custom shop for trade members, offering customizations on any catalog pieces to suit the exact specifications of your next project. Add in a fabric catalog made entirely of all natural and recycled materials and you're well on your way to something truly special. So when you feel like a break from the same old, visit sixpenny.comtrade to sign up for exclusive discounts, customization options and one on one support. That's S I X P-E-N-N-Y.com trade and now back to the show. You seem to cover things without judgment. Despite all of the world renowned people that you have on your Rolodex and whose homes you've been to and, and the travel and the experiences that you've seen. You don't say this isn't good enough. You take us often into very simple apartments and without judgment or without feeling as though this is less than in some way.

B (42:49)

Well, I think that first of all, I'm not going to bring anything to our readers that I don't believe in. That's number one. And I'm not going to bring anything to our readers that I'm going to make fun of. And I'm doing it In a way that, you know, oh, look, this isn't. This is how we don't want to live. This is a don't like to do in fashion magazines. But I have been criticized, and of course, you know, the online chatter is like, why would you show us that? Or, why do you, you know, you. You're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. If I show an apartment that actually shows people do have money, it's like, you get blasted. If I show an apartment where it's more modest, you can also get blasted. But I remember in fashion, when I used to show expensive clothes, I'd say, look, you go to a museum, you see a Picasso, you learn about artists and about the range of the work. It doesn't mean you can own a Picasso. It doesn't mean you can buy a Rembrandt. Of course you can't. But. But to know it's there is so exciting to know about that talent. So I think it's the same in interiors. I mean, I want to bring things that will engage people, and, yes, they'll have a conversation. It's like, I could never live there. Well, it's not about you living there. It's about that this person loves to live like that. And in my book. May I come in? I say, you know, one person's heaven is another person's hell. Because in the end of the day, taste and design are very subjective. It's what you like, it's what you want to live with. The colors, the patterns, the. You know, if you're a modernist, if you're not. So I don't have judgment. I only get very depressed reading comments where people are so vicious because they don't like it. And it's like, okay, I get it. But that's my mission here, is I wouldn't necessarily live like this person we are featuring. But this is a really interesting person and place, and this is why it's like the way it is.

A (44:53)

That's why I wonder. We talk a lot about why there isn't design criticism. Yeah, right.

B (45:01)

Yeah.

A (45:01)

So architecture, plenty of critics. Our good friend, the colorful art critic, who's very vocal and outspoken. Lots of worlds have critics in them. Ours doesn't. In the interior world.

B (45:15)

Yeah, it's so interesting. It's really true. And I think, again, the reason is because it's so incredibly personal and subjective. I mean, if you had criticism, for instance, it's really a slippery slope. Because if I'm gonna be a critic and say, you know, this Modernist house is cold. It's ugly. I'm gonna make a judgment about that person's taste and that person's proclivity towards, you know, living in a much different way than I would live. Well, what gives me the right to do that? You know what. Why? What gives me the authority to say, this is really bad? It's not bad necessarily. It is just different. And I think we are a society where people are so. Well, it gets into a whole other thing. But, you know, people will not. People are very, very punishing about differences. They're punishing about. Well, you know, and they become the authority. I mean, we have so many on. Everyone on social media is an authority and a critic, and those are our critics. I hate to say it.

A (46:23)

And interestingly, despite all of that, the rise of homeworthy and the rise of. Hello, homeworthy. Welcome. Here's my house and so many other home tours where, again, people feel no hesitation in often leaving scathing remarks and criticism or positive things, obviously, as well. But what do we make of that and how that has changed how we think about the coverage of the interior world?

B (46:56)

Well, it's really. It's a tough field because with. With this thing, the iPhone and social media, first of all, I think a lot of things are done for clickbait. I think that in fashion, and I could be wrong, but that's my feeling. And I think that, you know, people want to be this. This. This compulsion to be an exhibitionist. I think it is very strong because you think I have this tool and you can know about me and you can know who I am and I can be a star. I mean, I think there's a great sort of thing about Mimi. I want you to think I'm special, and here's why, you know, come into my home often it can backfire because people are not particularly kind on social media often. And I think being authentic to yourself, staying in your lane, competing with yourself, as someone said to me the other day, that they compete with themselves. That's sort of where it's healthy. Where it's not healthy is looking over in the other lane and going, oh, I'm not that, but I want to be that. How can I be that? And then doing things that don't feel good for you to do, to be that. I mean, don't even try to be that. Be really the most and best of who you are.

A (48:20)

And I think you're right that people. People are getting pushed to a limit, and I think many reluctantly and are struggling with forcing themselves to create A character that they just aren't. No. And I just think. And this is so many designers, this just isn't their comfort zone. They don't want to be out in front. They're more than happy to be behind the scenes, and they're happy to listen. If they create a furniture collection, they're happy to go and tell you why they designed this new chair. But that's different than, right, jumping into my kitchen and let me show you what I'm making for dinner tonight and how I love using saffron in all my cooking. And here's what I mean, whatever it is, I just feel people are being pushed to a level, and I think we're going to see the pendulum swing the other way, and I don't know what that's going to look like or feel like.

B (49:15)

Well, I think the whole idea of privacy, I mean, it's a beautiful concept, privacy. It's someplace you can retreat and be quiet. I think, you know, the thing about a designer is, aside from themselves, they are often. Which you know very well, they often are like they're in the middle of a very intense personal life of these clients.

A (49:39)

Yes.

B (49:40)

They're. They're marriage counselors. They're psychiatrists. They're. And often clients want their. They want the life of their designer. They want to be at those parties. They want to have that what they consider a very glamorous life. And so the designers are sort of under pressure to mediate their professional life with the client and then their personal life, which probably a lot of them just want to keep personal. But there is a push pull there.

A (50:09)

And interestingly, on the client side, it sounds like more and more clients want you to sign an NDA, and they want to be private. Right. The super wealthy seem to be building elaborate security systems, so you can't even see when they enter and exit their homes. And yet the expectation.

B (50:31)

That's so true. But I think there's always a counter to that. Look at, you know, the Bravo, the Housewives series. You know, if there's one Kelly bag, there are 40 in different colors, and we see the closets and we see the jewels, and then they get surprised that they're robbed. I mean, it's so crazy to me, this display of wealth and possessions, because that is very much part of the, you know, the Hunger Games of our society. But. But, you know, there is the NDA thing. There is the thing where. No, I can't. I can't show you this, because I did sign it. But there's also the Other side of it, where people want you to know how rich they are and they want you to know they can buy any Kelly bag in any color. And that's sort of amazing too. It's just incredible to me.

A (51:26)

And are we in a place. We were talking recently about how, interestingly, during the great financial crisis, people quieted down about how acquisitive they were. Right. People didn't want to appear to have wealth and people were not showing their fancy handbags as much as. And now there's a feeling that we've swung the other way. And people are very willing to. And lots of. To your point about influencers, there's lots of new, very wealthy influencers who are showing you they're taking off in their jets and they're going here and there and letting you into that world whether you want to see all of that or not, right? And it feels like a different time, a conspicuous consumption time seems to have returned in many ways.

B (52:13)

Oh, without question. I mean, I was at a dinner the other night and a designer told me that he has a client who has a yacht, a wonderful big, big yacht. And then a follow yacht. I said, excuse me, of what? He said, a follow yacht. And I said, well, what is that? And a follow yacht is another yacht, I would imagine smaller than the big yacht, but it has, you know, it follows the big yacht in case of. They need whatever that's on the follow up. But I think that we're talking about billions instead of millions, whereas we used to talk about millions, now millions, who cares? It's billions and how many and the power of those billions, what they can do. And I think it's in our face all the time, even if you're not on social media. It's just the chatter about wealth and about what wealth means I think is tragic because, you know, wealth has the power to do so many good things. And I just wish that, you know, people who did have this incredible wealth were invested in that because it would help us so much instead of, you know, showing that you have 40,000 Rolls Royces and 18 homes. I mean, it's just endlessly fascinating to me how people behave and what they think will make them happy and what they think will make, you know, a successful life. Because what's so clear in our society is the power of celebrity. It is so powerful. We are all so hungry to see celebrity, to get near celebrity, to celebrate or take them down. But in that power comes so much. You could be doing so many wonderful things to help people. And I think the Power of celebrity. I've seen it good and I've seen it bad from my work and just being out in the world, it's fascinating how people behave. It really is fascinating.

A (54:20)

Well, and that's why, Wendy, I wonder. I do some work with the New York School of Interior Design. And you have an honorary doctorate from the New York School of Interior Design.

B (54:30)

I do.

A (54:32)

And so I often think about the young design students coming out of school and how do we help them make heads or tails of this environment that they are entering into. It's so different today. How do we advise, counsel, guide them? What do you suggest from seeing. You've been there at the beginning of so many designers careers and seen how they've navigated today, the landscape is so much more challenging. What do we tell them?

B (55:10)

Well, it's so complicated and it's so hard. I think the best advice. I was just talking to Danielle Colding, who I'm doing a story on one of her beautiful projects very soon in the magazine, and I said to Danielle with the clients, the couple that she's working with, I said, so where did you start here? And she said, I always start with a walkthrough with the client, with what they have, with what they need, what they don't need, where they want to refresh. So I think that was so brilliant because of course, you start with your client, you start with the questions, you start with listening and for the designer to then go back and say, oh, this is so interesting. Maybe they didn't consider or know about xyz. I can bring that to them. It might be something they'd like for this. So, I mean, it's such a complicated world designers today have to deal with, so I would start there.

A (56:12)

I find myself feeling so positive about their skill set and how useful it can be in the world, but I sense that it's going to have to be applied in a very different way than we've seen, right?

B (56:28)

Oh, yes, because also they're dealing with clients who have, you know, they've been doing their own homework, they've been looking at a billion things, Pinterest. But whatever they're doing, so.

A (56:41)

So

B (56:44)

there are a lot of options. But the good thing is they've opted to work with professional. So that's already a plus. Because they're saying, I need your help. I need you to bring to me things I may not know. I need you to help me edit. I can't. With all these choices, I just don't know which. So I think they have to take Their cue again from, from what's positive and try to chip away at what isn't positive and kind of weed it out.

A (57:14)

I wonder, as we wrap up, Wendy, do you have a sense of some big change coming to people's tastes or desires? I see our friend John Edelman going to Haworth and I think, how big a market is the contemporary furniture market today? Traditional still feels like so much of what we see in all of the big shelter publications and elsewhere. Are we ready to move on from mid century? Heaven forbid? I don't know.

B (57:48)

No, I think, you know, I think things are really cyclical. I think everything changes and nothing changes. I think that I'm often. Oh, I just did a thing for New York magazine where I was asked about trends and I wish I had could redo it because trends are something that the market makes up to sell things. Okay, that's what trends are. That's really what I see.

A (58:10)

You all are confused what all that trend work is really about. Yeah, it's just to sell you stuff.

B (58:15)

It's like, it's, it like pushes retail, it pushes the economy, I think, in a good way. And trends can be so beautiful. But I think that, you know, again, people have, they love to have options. And I think, you know, you know, mid century versus classic. I think what's always the most exciting is the mix. If things are not just one thing, but you kind of, you know, you make things live together that you love. And they will make sense if you love them. And they will make sense also if they're placed in a way that they're user friendly. You know, it's easy for people to talk to one another. It's easy for people to read a book or a paper or, you know, use their laptop on their whatever, where they like to work. So I mean, my answer is, I don't see things changing that much, honestly. I think people are people and I think, you know, I think again, they may, you know, we may hear and we may see in the press, oh, yes, now we're into florals, we're into this. We're. Well, I think it's a marketing device, quite honestly. And I think that, you know, it's been a marketing device forever and more power to the people that are putting that out. But there are beautiful choices in every single area in mid century, in classic, in, you know, totally, totally highly modern. And I think it's really up to the person and designer to pick and choose.

A (59:48)

I completely agree. Is there anything else coming up for you? Anything else that you're working on that. You want to tell us about?

B (59:54)

No, I do have a lot of. I have a lot of things in my mind.

A (60:00)

A lot of ideas.

B (60:01)

A lot of ideas. We've got the Milan Salone coming up where I'm going to be going off with Eric Maza, who's joined the magazine a couple of months, who is so great, and I'm so excited that we're going to be doing it together, the fair. And no, it's just more subway riding and discovering great places.

A (60:22)

Well, and I love the regular subway updates and seeing you around town. It's always fun. So I encourage any and all to follow Wendy Goodman on social media, but I don't get the sense that I'm gonna be seeing you making a lot of reels and performing for us anytime soon.

B (60:39)

Oh, well, no, no, Dennis, I might be doing that. You know, we did have a series called Interior Lives that I loved doing. And we are talking about not, you know, we're talking about a version of it because I do think bringing people into the places that we feature can be so much fun. And we can do it in a way that maybe isn't. The production isn't quite as big as it was, but it can be as intense and fun as it was. So don't count me out. Don't count.

A (61:09)

I never count me out, Don.

B (61:10)

Count me out, Dennis.

A (61:11)

I never count you out. Is there a place you're dying to get into that we haven't seen?

B (61:15)

Oh, gosh, there's so many. Yeah, there's one place. I'm not going to say because we're still working on it so hard. But yeah, we're doing another Hamptons issue for this summer, which is very exciting. And, yeah, there's something I'm really going to not accept no for an answer, even if I have to, but I'm not going to.

A (61:38)

Well, I know that you are nothing if not determined. Finally, Wendy, this question that we often get asked about. What would our younger self make of all of this? Your younger self thought you were going in a different direction and taking a different path.

B (61:57)

Right.

A (61:57)

Courses changed and things you learned about yourself. What do you think your younger self would make of it all? And what's the advice perhaps that you would give to your younger self in thinking about. About all of that?

B (62:09)

Well, I think what's really so interesting is that life leads you. I mean, in my case, I'll just use myself. It led me to where I was really supposed to be. This is the career I was meant to have. This is what I love doing more than anything. And so what I. And I always loved writing, and I always loved studying history of art and all that stuff. But I didn't understand when I was doing fashion, which I kept switching of chafing against because I thought, oh, no, that. But I didn't understand that if I could tell my younger self, it's okay, you're on the river, and the river's going to take you to the right spot. Because all the experiences that we have lead to the experience we're supposed to have. And if you just stay true to saying yes, I mean, I got to, I think, largely where I am because I said yes to challenges I didn't think I could do. And I think people have to have faith in. If you really have a passion for something and you really have a curiosity, you will get there. Even if you're doing something you don't think is the right thing to get there, it is helping you get there, if that makes any sense.

A (63:23)

It does. And often one has to be pushed.

B (63:27)

Yes.

A (63:28)

Right. And you've talked about stepping outside of your comfort zone, and. And often that's where the next exciting, amazing thing awaits you.

B (63:36)

Well, the other thing that I really want to say is that, you know, mentors are so important. I never would have gotten to do any of the things I've done without the amazing mentors. So people cannot work in a vacuum. They need to have help, and they need to have a community that they, you know, really feel part of. And all the mentors I've had, it's like I have been the luckiest person on earth.

A (64:01)

Well, I'm so glad that you raised that, because we often talk about, perhaps people aren't mentoring enough these days. And I wish everyone the opportunity of finding someone to really help them and guide them. And it doesn't mean adopting them as a big brother or big sister, but just being someone who can help them at. At pivotal moments so often.

B (64:26)

Absolutely. And I think, like David, our editor in chief now, his leadership is so different from anybody else I've ever worked for, but he is incredibly. He's mentoring just by being. And I think you need to sort of go towards that person. Eric Maza also is just an amazing person to work with. And as an editor, I mean, you cannot do it by yourself. And you need to seek out people and ask for their help.

A (64:58)

Yes.

B (64:58)

You always need help. You always need, like, you know, what if I did X? What do you think of. I mean, and collaboration is so much more fun. Than just in your own head thinking, is this really the right thing? Is this going to work?

A (65:12)

I mean, talking yourself out of things in your own head, you're most, you're mostly talking yourself out of it, right?

B (65:17)

It's like collaboration is so much fun. It's really fun.

A (65:22)

I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. Wendy Goodman, I'm mad about you and I'm so delighted that you were able to take the time to chat with me. And I thank you, Dennis.

B (65:31)

I am so honored to be with you and thank you so much for this time.

A (65:37)

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to keep up with the latest design industry news news, visit us online@businessofhome.com where you can sign up for our newsletter, browse job listings, and join our BoH Insider community for access to online workshops, a free print subscription, and much more. If you have a note for the podcast, drop us a line@podcastusinessofhome.com if you're enjoying these conversations, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps others to discover the show. Show this show was produced by Fred Nicholaus and edited by Michael Castaneda. I'm Dennis Scully. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next week.