David Brown (3:41)

changes and ain't it on TikTok, the response is equally blunt.

Podcast Commentator (3:46)

Users were not super impressed with this rebrand, just a lot of build up and people were just disappointed that these were all the changes that Bumble actually made. Overall, I really don't think this was an incredible rebrand for them, especially because they're trying to grapple with such huge issues at the business level.

David Brown (4:03)

Those issues aren't going away, they're getting louder. Bumble promises its users a wake up call, but what it delivers for many feels more like a snooze button. And now Bumble's users are asking a simple but dangerous question. What exactly is Bumble becoming?

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David Brown (5:59)

From audible originals I'm david brown and this is business wars. Whitney Wolfe Herd turned a breakup and a lawsuit into one of the most successful dating apps in the world. She built Bumble on a simple idea. Women make the first move and that idea turned Bumble into a cultural phenomenon and eventually a 14 billion dollar company. But the buzz didn't last since shortly after Bumble's 2021 IPO. Their stock price has come to resemble the north face of Mount Everest, one long, brutal slide downward. By the start of 2024, Bumble's worth was down to around $2 billion. And Wolf Hurd is out as CEO. After 10 exhausting years running the company, she's handed the job to a new leader, Lidiani Jones, who now has the task of turning Bumble around. Jones first move Relaunching the brand is bold. Maybe too bold, because in trying to fix Bumble, she may have broken the one thing that made it work. Now Jones will have to make more moves. But it will take a whole lot more than a rebrand to save the company. This is episode two, the Sting. It's May 3, 2024, in New York City. Bumble CEO Lidiani Jones walks onto an NBC News set and settles into a plush chair across from an anchor. Jones is dressed in soft blues, a long skirt and matching sweater. Her look reads calm and controlled. Jones took over from Wolf Herd four months ago with a mandate to take the brand in a new direction, and now Jones gets to explain that plan on television. She tells the NBC anchor that the centerpiece of Bumble's rebrand is a feature called opening moves. With opening moves, women can attach a question to their profile, something like, what's the one thing you'll never order at a restaurant? Men who match with them have to answer that question in order to initiate a conversation. It's intended to be a subtle shift that still leaves women in control. But in practice, it does something much bigger. It erases the one rule that made Bumble different from every other dating app. NBC's anchor asks the obvious question, why would Bumble make such a change? Jones tries to answer, but she can't quite stick the landing.

Lidiani Jones (9:03)

We hear our customers. That's the key message. Our customers are telling, especially women, that they are tired, that dating has become difficult. And we are really embracing listening to our customers and helping women make that journey more fun, more enjoyable, more you know what it's supposed to be. You're looking for love. You're supposed to be having a great time. So we are. This is the first step in our journey to making dating fun again and getting women to be in control and not be so exhausted by that journey.

David Brown (9:34)

Jones doesn't articulate how Bumble is going to make dating fun again, but she's right about one thing. Users are tired. A Pew Research survey finds that almost half of all online daters and a majority of women describe their experience on dating apps as negative. In fact, the media has coined a new phrase to describe dating app fatigue. It's what happens after the thousandth swipe or the fiftieth conversation goes nowhere. For a lot of folks, dating apps don't feel like a path to love. They feel like mature. As Jones stumbles through her answers on television, Bumble is already pressing ahead with the rebrand it hopes will reinvigorate users. There's reason to believe Jones might be able to pull this off. Just days after she appears on NBC, the company reports its first full quarter under her leadership. Revenue is up 10%, paying users are up 18%, and Bumble posts a profit of 33.9 million, a sharp turnaround after losing 32 million the previous quarter. Wall street likes what it sees. The stock jumps. But those strong financial numbers aren't related to the rebranding. And Bumble's users aren't watching the stock ticker either. They're watching what the company does next. And Bumble's next move is about to prompt another backlash. It's May 9, 2024, in San Francisco. Whitney Wolfe Heard walks on stage at the Bloomberg Technology Summit and perches on the edge of an oversized couch. It's been six months since she stepped down as CEO and became the executive chair of Bumble's board. She's still the face of Bumble, and her personal story still defines Bumble's brand. But today, Wolf Herd has a new vision to share. A moderator asks her about the future of human connection in a world where AI is quickly evolving. It's a big open ended question. Wolf Herd leans forward and clasps her hands and starts talking. She introduces the idea of an AI dating concierge, a digital assistant that learns who you are, coaches you through dating and helps you become your best self. And at first the audience seems to be eating it up, but then they start laughing, assuming that Wolfe Herd is pranking them.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (12:15)

For example, you could in the near future be talking to your AI dating concierge and you could share your insecurities. I just came out of a breakup. I have commitment issues. And it could help you train yourself into a better way of thinking about yourself. And then it could give you productive tips for communicating with other people. If you want to get really out there, there is a world where your dating concierge could go and date for you with other dating concierge. No, no, truly. And then you don't have to talk to 600 people, scan all of San Francisco for you.

David Brown (12:51)

Let's pause for Just a second. AI tools had been around for a while by this point, but this isn't yet the age of AI generated emails and widely used chatbots like ChatGPT, Claude, and Gemini. So the audience's reaction to Wolfe Heard it makes sense. It makes even more sense when you remember how Whitney Wolfe Heard built Bumble on a single radical insight that women wanted more control over their romantic lives, not less. That principle shaped the very architecture of the app. By messaging. First, women could filter out unsolicited contact from men, especially, you know, creepy men. But now the woman who built all of that is on a stage in San Francisco, suggesting these same women hand control of their love lives over to a machine on the Internet. Wolf Herd's vision doesn't play any better than it did in the room. Some critics call the idea dystopian. Others call it a bad take. And now things are about to go from bad to worse for Bumble. Because while Wolf Herd is on stage imagining the future, back in Austin, Bumble's marketing team is finalizing a new campaign that will do serious damage in the present. It's early May 2024. Across America and Europe, new Bumble billboards are going up. The ads are hard to miss. Bright yellow backgrounds, bold black text, they're plastered across highways and subway stations from Los Angeles to London. The campaign is aimed at burned out daters, especially women who are thinking about quitting dating apps altogether. Women who've grown tired of the swiping and the ghosting and the endless conversations that never seem to go anywhere. Some may even be considering swearing off dating entirely, even if that does mean being alone. The billboards have a blunt message for those women. The bold text on one reads, you know full well a vow of celibacy is not the answer. Another says, thou shalt not give up on dating and become a nun. Within hours, the Internet fires back on TikTok. One marketing expert is stunned. I just have to ask, like Bumble, what focus groups or data led you to this campaign and messaging? And on top of all these seemingly tone deaf billboards, Bumble's founder is also claiming that AI Personas are the future of dating, which people are just having a field day with. On Twitter, the backlash spreads quickly as celebrities pile on. Khloe Kardashian, Julia Fox, Tiffany Haddish, Kate Hudson, Lenny Kravitz. They all publicly endorse the very thing Bumble had just mocked. Celibacy. On Instagram, Celibacy Forward creator Lainey Malnar goes even further.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (15:51)

Dear Bumble, I'M trying to understand the context. Besides gaslighting women who refuse to participate in hookup culture because what, your shareholders want to buy a third yacht, so you need men to get laid, so the premium fees that they pay you are worth it.

David Brown (16:06)

Soon, those billboards start coming down. But Molnar's point lands because it taps into a deeper tension inside Bumble's business. Bumble's user base actually skews mail. In 2024, 61% of users say they are men. And these days, the company offers several paid tiers, with men being more likely than women to pay for those tears. Which means that with opening moves and the cringy billboards, some women are starting to publicly ask a very pointed question. Is Bumble for us or for the guys? Weeks later, Jones and Wolfe Hurd appear together at a Wall Street Journal event. A moderator asks Jones about those billboards.

Lidiani Jones (16:58)

Yeah, you know, the intent really weighs. We support all choices people make. All of it, really. That's the intent, is that women are in control of making whatever choices they want to make. And we just made a mistake in how that landed. It was not good, and we felt really terrible about it. It was really important that we responded in a genuine and honest way, because the mission of the company is to support women.

David Brown (17:24)

Jones keeps talking, but her answer starts to wander. It grows longer and less certain. She glances toward Wolf Herd, and finally, the founder steps in.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (17:36)

We made a mistake. We will learn from it and we will overcome.

David Brown (17:41)

In one sentence, she does what CEOs are supposed to do. She stops the bleeding. But the damage has already been done. In less than two weeks, Bumble has managed to alienate its core audience and undermine the very thing that made it different. That's two strikes, and a third is on its way.

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David Brown (19:50)

It's November 2024 in Austin. Bumble's marketing team is putting the finishing touches on a new series of online video ads. Most of them follow a similar theme. A couple who met on Bumble shares how they found each other on the app, how their first date went, how the relationship grew from there. Each ad highlights a different aspect of the dating app's new features. In one ad, the focus is on Bumble's new updated Dating Intentions feature. It rolled out earlier in the year with the company's spring rebrand and allows users to pin their intentions to their profile. So if you're looking for something serious and a potential match says their intentions are casual, you just keep swiping. In the Bumble ad, both users have declared the same looking for a long term relationship. Their voices are layered over shots of the couple smiling, hugging, holding hands and kissing.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (20:45)

I knew you were looking for something serious from your profile, but you were like seriously serious.

Raza Jaffrey (20:50)

Why'd you say that?

Whitney Wolfe Herd (20:52)

Singing a full on love ballad on our first date kinda gave you away.

David Brown (20:56)

Oh God. Tragic?

Whitney Wolfe Herd (20:58)

No.

David Brown (20:58)

Refreshing, really. This is the ideal Bumble is selling. Join the app, meet someone great, find love. But investors aren't feeling quite so warm and fuzzy about the company itself. As the ads are being finalized, Bumble releases its third quarter earnings. Total revenue comes in at $274 million. That's down 1% from the same period a year earlier. It's the first time in Bumble's history as a public company that quarterly revenue has declined. Now, this may seem like a small decline, but when a company that's been built on growth suddenly posts even a 1% drop, that signals something structural has shifted underneath the surface. Investors don't react to the number. They react to what it implies about the future. In other words, this might not be just a dip. They're seeing it as a break in momentum. It is a warning flare. Buried deeper in the earnings report is an equally troubling number, a net loss of $849 million. Now, most of that is due to what's called a non cash impairment charge, which is essentially and admission that Bumble's assets, including Badoo and the Gen Z Friendly Fruits app it purchased in 2022, are worth far less than what Bumble paid for them. And look, I get it. Non cash impairment charge can sound like accounting trivia when it comes to judging the company's future. Investors read impairments like this as a signal about leadership or a failure thereof. And once that confidence cracks, raising capital or making the next big bet can get a whole lot harder. Soon after the earnings release, some of Bumble's top worker bees announced their departures from the hive. Bumble's chief financial officer is leaving. So too its chief marketing officer, the architect behind the brand relaunch that included those now infamous anti celibacy bill billboards. In a statement, CEO Lidiani Jones praises both the outgoing CFO and cmo, but she says nothing about her own future at Bumble. By this point, it's already slipping away. It's January 2025 in Montecito, California. Whitney Wolf Herd takes a call while sitting in the courtyard of her sprawling Spanish style home. Huge fountains bubble behind her. The scent of rosemary wafts through the air, the ocean and mountains there in the distance. It's a bucolic scene, but this call won't be relaxing. Bumble CEO Lidiani Jones is on the other end, and she has difficult news.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (24:01)

Whitney, listen, this job isn't working for me anymore. It's overwhelming. It's tiring. I just. I just don't think I can do it anymore.

David Brown (24:15)

Wolf Herd sits silently for a moment. What she's hearing sounds painfully familiar. In fact, it's the same thing she said to herself before she stepped down from the CEO role at Bumblebee.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (24:28)

I hear you, Lidiani. I've been exactly where you are when I first called you back in 2023 to see if you'd be interested in coming to bumble. I had 10 years of grind behind me. I wasn't sleeping, my health was bad, my sons were young, and I just kept thinking, what am I doing? So you know the feeling? Oh, I do. More than you know.

David Brown (24:56)

When the call ends, Wolfe Herd takes a long walk through her property, strolling past the horse stables, the pastures, before making her way back to the main house, an historic home that dates back to 1845. In a strange bit of real estate symmetry, the house was once owned by Tinder co founder Sean Rad, the same Sean Rad who was CEO of Tinder when Wolfe Herd sued the company the lawsuit that ultimately led her to found Bumble. Two years ago, she bought this place as a retreat from her hectic days at Bumble, the days that would eventually burn her out. Now, after a little more than a year away from Bumble's C suite, Wolf Herd finds herself wondering whether she should return to it. It's not an easy decision. Under Lidiani Jones, Bumble cut 30% of its workforce. Its C suite was hollowed out, the rebrand fell flat, and the marketing campaign infuriated users. And the company's stock has fallen more than 40%. Maybe worse, revenue per user is in a steep decline. In its push for growth at any cost, Bumble added users aggressively, often through promotions. But that growth came with a trade off. More profiles didn't mean better matches. It meant more low quality interactions. And that has weakened engagement with the app. Wolfe Herd has watched all of this play out from her seat on the board, and seeing Bumble fall from its peak has been hard. But the grind of the CEO job is also hard. She looks out the window of her ranch home toward the Wisteria branches that'll soon be in bloom. Her mind races. In her time since she stepped out of the spotlight, she believes she's changed. She's had a breakup. A breakup with her need to be liked by employees, by the tech press, by anyone close to Bumble. That constant need for validation, she now believes, led her to make compromises, ignore her instincts. But that need is gone. And now Wolf Herd's gut is telling her that Bumble needs her. It's telling her that she's the only one who can bring Bumble back. Wolf Herd calls her assistant to schedule a board meeting. She's going to ask for her old job back, and soon after she gets it, the board votes her in. She'll officially take over in March 2025. The original Queen bee is heading back to the hive. But she isn't returning to a thriving colony. She's walking into a company that's on the brink of collapse. It's May 2025 in Austin. Bumble's executive team gathers in a conference room, the same room with the framed print on the wall, all black letters on a yellow background that say LIFE Short. Make the first move, Whitney. Wolf Herd steps toward that print and looks at it for a moment. She's been thinking a lot about the old Bumble. She's also been thinking about what Bumble needs to be now, especially in a world where men can message first. She turns to face the room, and she begins with a diagnosis.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (28:28)

I want to talk about what has gone wrong here at Bumblebee. Not to assign blame, but to make sure we don't repeat our mistakes. Because we can't afford to repeat them.

David Brown (28:40)

She pauses, then walks slowly to the end of the table and turns her back to the team.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (28:45)

Let me put this simply. At some point our team started focusing on outputs. What are outputs? Outputs are revenue growth. Outputs are payers. Outputs are sheer volume of registrations. A good business does not focus on outputs. A good business focuses on the core inputs that matter most. So for us, what are those core inputs that are most critical? Are our users actually getting what they came here for?

David Brown (29:17)

She lets that question sit in the room for a moment.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (29:21)

I'll repeat that. Are our users actually getting what they came here for? We stopped asking that question because we were chasing growth. And when you chase growth, you get it, but eventually you lose it.

David Brown (29:38)

The executives in the room acknowledge her point, but I want to make sure we do too. You know, there's a reason experienced operators obsess over inputs instead of outputs. You know, revenue users growth. Those outputs are lagging indicators. They tell you what already happened. Inputs like product quality, user trust, real engagement. Those are the things that you have more control over and they determine what happens next. When a company starts managing outputs, it can juice the numbers for a while, but eventually you discover you've borrowed from the future and and the bill comes due in the form of churn distrust and declining value per user. Bumble managed to grow its revenue even as its stock slid. But any hope it might have had for driving revenue growth through growth acquisitions like Gen Z dating app fruits in early 2022 and the relationship focused app official in May 2023 that's now gone. Bumble has decided to shut down both of those apps. Bumble also tried to push growth by adding more and more user profiles without carefully vetting them. And more users for a time led to more revenue. But it hasn't always led to better matches. And there are also plenty of real users who have what Wolf Herd calls bad intentions. Some of them even have fake identities. In chasing revenue growth at all costs, Wolf Herd explains Bumble, has lost sight of what really mattered. Was the woman sitting alone on a Friday night scrolling through profiles on the Bumble app? Was she getting any closer to finding what she came for? For too many users, the answer's been no. Wolf Hurd again glances at the make the First Move poster.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (31:35)

We're going to engage a quality reset. That means we're getting rid of the bad intention users and focusing on serious, authentic users. It's going to cost us. Revenue will go down, but quality will go up. We're shifting from volume to value. We built Bumble as a house of love, but the foundation of this house has started to crack. So we're going to rebuild. Bumble is going to become the Love Company.

David Brown (32:09)

It's a rallying cry, and it sounds unmistakably like the Whitney Wolf Herd who launched Bumble in 2014. She's fired up, maybe even a little angry, and she's convinced she knows something the rest of the dating industry doesn't. Over the next several months, Wolf Herd will start drawing up plans for a new version of Bumble. But not long after she starts rebuilding the House of Love, she's going to swing a wrecking ball through her company's workforce. And they won't see it coming.

Leon Neyfak (32:50)

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David Brown (34:02)

It's June 2025 in Austin. Whitney Wolfe Heard has called an all hands online meeting just three months after returning as CEO. She has news and it isn't good. Bumble's finances are continuing to sag. Revenue in the first quarter of 2025 was down 8% from the year before. Total paying users were flat at roughly 4 million and the average amount each user spends on the app, that's fallen by about 7%. To shore up the company, Wolf Herd has decided layoffs are needed. Big layoffs. She's already told the staff in a company wide email that Bumble's cutting around the 30% of the workforce. Most of the cuts will come from the London office where Bumble's European online Dating subsidiary Badu is located now. Speaking to the employees who will remain with the company, Wolf Herd tries to explain the urgency of this moment.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (34:59)

I'll be honest with you, I'm genuinely worried that if I don't act immediately and dramatically to reinvent this company, Bumble could collapse in the next six months. We need to take decisive action to

David Brown (35:13)

restructure the rooms in Austin and London. Go quiet. This is dire news, but the company's been here before. Just 18 months earlier, under Lidiani Jones, Bumble cut 30% of its workforce. Now it's cutting 30% of what's left. The employees who are connected by video chat can't keep silent. They start typing their reactions in the meeting chat mostly. They're flooding the screen with emojis, thumbs down, frowny faces. Wolfe Herd waves her hands in the air in frustration. And then, according to employees who were at the meeting, she tells her staff to calm down and start acting like adults. News of the tense meeting spreads. One magazine calls Wolf Herd's announcement a quote, masterclass in how not to deliver news about layoffs. Despite the misstep, Wolfe Herd presses on. But while she's staring at spreadsheets in Austin, Hollywood is busy dramatizing her demons. It's September 2025 in Toronto. British actress Lily James walks the red carpet at the Toronto International Film Festival. She's here to premiere her new Hulu film, Swiped, a dramatization of Wolfe Herd's time at Tinder, the lawsuit that followed, and how that conflict eventually inspired the creation of Bumble. James, who both stars in the film and helped produce it, fields a question from a reporter.

Lily James (36:52)

It's a very powerful story. It's very inspiring. And I was really profoundly moved by this woman who was. Was so young, in her 20s, not only achieving such greatness in her space and in her industry, but impacting, making real change and also having to put up with a lot.

David Brown (37:10)

You know, that's high praise. But if Wolf Heard had her way, James never would have been able to deliver it. When Wolf Heard first got wind of the film, she asked her lawyer if she could shut it down. She was told no. And now, on the eve of the movie's late September release, the Bumble founder is trying to get up the nerve to watch the movie's trailer. Some members of the original Tinder team aren't as hesitant. They've seen the trailer, and based on that alone, they've publicly blasted the film, calling it inaccurate. One former Tinder executive even disputes the idea that Wolfe Herd was a co founder of Tinder. He says she was actually more like an intern. Wolf Herd brushes off the dig she doesn't have time to get drawn into old fights with Tinder because over the coming months, Wolf Herd steps out of the C suite and into the trenches of the company. Starting in January 2026, she spends 90% of her time working alongside Bumble's tech and product teams. She's pushing them to develop Bumble 2.0, an AI powered overhaul of the app. The new version promises to change the entire Bumble experience. Wolfherd is focused on that core user experience. How do users onboard? How can Bumble make that process smoother? How are profiles created? How can Bumble make them better? And most important importantly, how are matches made? Can AI make the process more efficient? As spring grows closer, Bumble 2.0 is nearly ready. But first the company has to survive another round of grim financial news. It's March 2026 on Wall Street. At the end of the trading day, Bumble releases its year end numbers for 2025. Annual revenue down 10%, the number of paying users also down by almost 12%. Plus, the company reports losses of more than $900 million after another large impairment charge for the underperforming assets. Despite all of that, investors latch onto something else. In after hours trading, Bumble's stock price starts shooting up. As the stock rises, Wolf Herd and other Bumble executives dial into an earnings call from Austin. They explain that Bumble 2.0 is almost ready for beta testing. The new version of the app is built around AI, the very same kind of AI that drew derisive laughter when Wolf Herd first talked about about it two years earlier. But the world has changed quickly. AI tools are now part of everyday life for many of us, from writing emails and making spreadsheets to helping us figure out what to cook for dinner. Wow. Amazing how much the narratives flipped, eh? The idea of AI assistance didn't fundamentally change, but the adoption of the concept sure has. I'm reminded of the Newton. Ever heard of that? It was supposed to be Apple's digital assistant, only it came out a little more than a decade before we were all running around with smartphones to help us get stuff done. Back when Newton was introduced, people were laughing then too. Now seems almost visionary. This speaks to an uncomfortable truth about innovation. Being early and being wrong can look the same in real time. Sometimes the difference is whether you survive long enough and stay positioned well enough for the rest of the world to catch up. Now Bumble plans to use this same AI technology to transform dating. The redesigned AI driven app will help daters, Wolfherd says, but it will also include features that enable the kind of in person group meetups that are popular with Gen Z. On the earnings call. Wolfe Herd emphasizes that all of these new offerings revolved around one key principle. You guessed it, women first.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (41:30)

Women and the trust that we have with women. And the authentic design system of putting women first beyond just a function of who goes first or who doesn't. This is inherently what sets us apart.

David Brown (41:44)

Even though Bumble's turbulent 2024 severely dented that trust, investors appear willing to buy into Wolf Herd's new vision for Bumble's future. The next morning, shares jump 50% with news of the company's improved fourth quarter revenue and overhaul plans. Later that same day, a video goes up on Instagram explaining Bumble's new AI powered app.

Whitney Wolfe Herd (42:08)

Enter Bee, Bumble's personal dating assistant. Bee Powers dates a new, entire, intelligent way to take you from match to meet. Sarah starts a conversation with Bea to help discover what really matters to her. Then Bea gets to work searching. While Sarah goes about her day. Bea finds Jake, a potential match for Sarah, and explains why they're a good fit for each other. If Jake and Sarah are both interested, Bea will make the introduction and suggest a thoughtful date idea.

David Brown (42:41)

After two years of swings and misses, Bumble finally looks like a company moving forward again. Bumble was born from a woman saying no to the status quo. But to survive, it had to change. You know, if you invested $1,000 in Bumble on the day of its IPO back in February 2021, guess how much money you'd have today? About $50. That number tells a story of collapse. But Bumble's story was never just about its share price. Whitney Wolfe Herd built the Bumble Hive out of anger at a time when she felt dismissed, harassed, pushed aside. She turned that experience into a product that flipped the rules of online dating. Women go first, women choose, women decide. That was the founding principle. But in an effort to save the stock, that idea has been softened and reinterpreted. Opening moves lets men go first, and now an AI bot called Bee lets computers take the lead. The app's new promise is that AI, which other dating companies are rolling out too. We'll make better connections, both for daters and for groups of friends. But the thing Bumble originally set out to fix wasn't just dating. It was how people treat each other. And that's a much harder problem to solve. Maybe Whitney Wolf Herd can continue to rebuild Bumble, maybe the stock will climb back to those great heights of yesteryear. But maybe the thing that made Bumble work in the first place, that simple, powerful idea, was a singular stroke of insight that can't be replicated. Unless that is a supercomputer manages to figure it out. We'll see. For now, happy swiping. Follow Business wars on the Audible app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to all episodes of Business wars ad free by joining Audible from Audible Originals. This has been Episode two of Bumble's Stumble for Business Wars. A quick note about recreations you've been hearing in most cases, we can't know exactly what was said at the time. Those scenes are dramatizations, but they're based on research and if you'd like to read more, we recommend a story titled the Bumble Tumble from the observer in the UK and the Fortune Magazine story titled Whitney Wolf. Heard is back. I'm your host, David Brown. Joseph Guento wrote our story. Voice acting by Chloe Elmore. Our senior producers are Jenny Bloom and Emily Frost. Our producer is Tristan Donovan of Yellow Ant. Karen Lowe is our producer Emeritus. Our managing producer is Desi Blalock. Fact checking by Gabrielle Jolais Sound design by Ryan Potesta Kyle Randall is our lead sound designer Executive Producer for Audible Jenny Lauer Beckman, Head of Creative Development at Audible Kate Navy, Head of Audible Originals North America Marshall Louie, Chief Content Officer Rachel Gyazza Copyright 2026 by Audible Originals, LLC Sound Recording Copyright 2026 by Audible Originates, LLC.