Shopping in the Social Media Age | 4

Summary

Business Wars: Shopping in the Social Media Age | Episode 4 Summary

Hosted by David Brown

In this engaging episode of Business Wars, hosted by David Brown, the discussion centers around the evolving landscape of holiday shopping in the age of social media. Brown is joined by Jordan Holman, a business reporter covering the retail industry and consumerism for The New York Times, and Kitty Guo, a writer for New York Magazine's The Strategist, specializing in beauty, fashion, and gifts.

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Early Holiday Shopping Trends

David Brown opens the conversation by highlighting the National Retail Federation's projection of $998 billion in holiday spending for the season running from November 1 to December 31. He notes a "return to pre-pre-pandemic normalcy," with consumers no longer caught in a pandemic-induced shopping frenzy. Instead, wage growth outpacing inflation is expected to drive both online and in-person spending, with a predicted sales growth of 2.5 to 3.5% over the previous year.

“We wanted to dig into some trends in consumer behavior and how companies are responding to meet demand,” Brown states at [00:28].

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Personal Gift-Giving Experiences

The hosts shift to personal anecdotes about memorable gifts:

• Jordan Holman shares, “The best gift I've ever received was a Fisher Price dollhouse when I was four or five” ([03:39]). He recounts gifting his parents a personalized wooden plaque during the pandemic, emphasizing the sentimental value of thoughtful presents.

• Kitty Guo values experiential gifts over material items. She recounts her partner securing a coveted 7 AM reservation at a desired restaurant for her birthday ([04:41]), and her own gift-giving focuses on personalized, handmade items like a customized wallet for her partner ([05:19]).

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Discovering Unique Gifts: The Role of Social Media

The conversation delves into how consumers discover unique gifts:

• Kitty Guo relies heavily on social media platforms like Instagram and Reddit's r/buyitforlife subreddit for recommendations. She appreciates the peer reviews and vetted suggestions that these platforms offer ([06:13]).

• Jordan Holman discusses the challenges of finding truly eclectic items on platforms like Instagram and Facebook, where algorithm-driven ads often lead to a homogenized culture of products ([07:15]).

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Influencers vs. Curators: Seeking Authenticity

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the authenticity of influencer endorsements:

• Jordan Holman observes a backlash against the homogeneous culture promoted by influencers, with a growing desire for authentic, non-sponsored recommendations ([08:08]).

• Kitty Guo echoes this sentiment, noting that consumers are increasingly sophisticated and skeptical of influencer marketing. She emphasizes a shift towards curators whose reputations are built on genuine taste rather than paid promotions ([09:33]).

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Quiet Luxury: An Understated Elegance

The episode explores the trend of quiet luxury, also known as stealth wealth or the old money aesthetic:

• Jordan Holman explains that quiet luxury focuses on timelessness and high quality without overt branding ([15:05]).

• Kitty Guo adds that brands like Kate Spade and Bottega Veneta embody this trend through their understated designs ([15:47]).

However, Jordan Holman notes challenges in 2024, where attainable luxury categories are seeing reduced performance due to consumers either maintaining their luxury purchases or opting for more budget-friendly options, complicating the definition and market positioning of quiet luxury ([16:39]).

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Personalization: Making Gifts Special

Personalization emerges as a key trend in gifting:

• Kitty Guo highlights the popularity of monogramming and personalized accessories, such as bag charms, which allow gifts to reflect individual personalities without significantly increasing costs ([17:32]).

• This approach aligns with the desire to move away from generic, trend-driven gifts towards items that have a personal touch and meaningful significance ([18:09]).

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TikTok's Influence on Shopping Habits

The impact of TikTok on consumer behavior is a focal point:

• Kitty Guo discusses how TikTok's peer-to-peer marketing and influencer-driven content can elevate brands and products, but also lead to a flattening effect where consumers desire unique items beyond viral trends ([18:54]).

• Jordan Holman acknowledges that while TikTok Shop is still ramping up, it significantly boosts sales for brands by making shopping seamless and impulse-friendly. He compares it to Amazon's recent launch of Amazon Haul, emphasizing the trend towards quick, low-cost purchases ([20:04], [21:15]).

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Retail Giants: Walmart vs. Target

A revealing discussion unfolds on the contrasting performances of Walmart and Target during the holiday season:

• Jordan Holman explains that Walmart's robust grocery business provides a steady revenue stream, unlike Target, which is more reliant on discretionary spending. This difference resulted in Walmart outperforming Target, as consumers continued to prioritize essential purchases ([25:25]).

• Moreover, Walmart has successfully attracted higher-income shoppers by enhancing their delivery services and product offerings, making it appealing beyond just budget-focused consumers ([26:34]).

• Kitty Guo adds that brick-and-mortar stores are leveraging nostalgia and well-curated displays to entice in-person shoppers, complementing their online presence through social media marketing ([27:39]).

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Future of Holiday Shopping: Projections for 2025

Looking ahead, the guests share their insights on the future of holiday shopping:

• Kitty Guo predicts that the trend of early and expansive holiday sales will continue, potentially evolving into a Cyber Month rather than just Cyber Week ([31:11]).

• Jordan Holman is intrigued by the possibility of Cyber Monday surpassing Black Friday in significance, reflecting the enduring shift towards online convenience ([31:52]).

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Gifting Tips and Tricks

The episode concludes with personalized gifting advice:

• Kitty Guo recommends focusing on fun, delightful, and unexpected gifts rather than mundane household items. She advises paying attention to the recipient's interests throughout the year to make gifting more meaningful ([32:33]).

• Jordan Holman emphasizes supporting independent bookstores as impactful gifts and encourages thinking beyond material items, such as providing gift cards for experiences like vacations ([34:30]).

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Final Thoughts

David Brown wraps up the episode by expressing gratitude to his guests and previewing future discussions, including an in-depth look at Boeing's unraveling in the next season of Business Wars.

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Key Takeaways:

• Early Holiday Marketing: Retailers are pushing holiday sales earlier each year to spread out revenue and gauge consumer demand effectively.

• Social Media Influence: Platforms like TikTok and Instagram significantly shape consumer purchasing decisions, often leading to impulse buys.

• Authenticity Over Hype: There's a growing consumer demand for authentic, curated recommendations over influencer-driven promotions.

• Quiet Luxury and Personalization: Consumers value understated, high-quality gifts and personalized items that reflect individual tastes.

• Retail Performance Dichotomy: Walmart's strong grocery sales and enhanced services have positioned it favorably against Target during the holiday season.

• Future Trends: The holiday shopping season is expected to continue expanding, with online platforms playing an increasingly dominant role.

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For More Insights:

• Jordan Holman can be followed on Twitter (@jordanjournals) and Instagram (@joholmey).

• Kitty Guo writes for The Strategist and can be found on Instagram (@itguo) or subscribed to her Substack newsletter, "Worn in Worn Out."

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Happy Shopping and Happy New Year from Business Wars!

Transcript

[David Brown]

Wondery plus subscribers can binge all four episodes of Business the Unraveling of Boeing early and ad free right now. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. $998 billion that's the amount of holiday spending the National Retail Federation projected for this season. Forecasters are describing this period, which runs from November 1 through December 31, as a kind of return to pre pre pandemic normalcy. Consumers aren't in the pandemic shopping frenzy anymore, but wage growth has outpaced inflation, which retailers hope will push spending online and in person. The federation predicts 2.5 to 3.5% sales growth over last year, and in an effort to ensure that this season meets those expectations, well, you probably saw a rash of emails, texts, mailers and in store holiday decor earlier than ever. And in fact, one of our guests put out a holiday gift guide on October 3rd. We're going to talk about all that. Plus, as TikTok's influence continues to expand, social media is a huge factor in what we buy and how we buy it.

[Kitty Guo]

There are a bunch of like cool girl Christmas gift ideas all under or around $50, but it's that time of.

[Jordan Holman]

Year and this is a boyfriend approved gift guide.

[David Brown]

Last year when I posted my gift guide, it got over a million views and the prices of vintage calendars on ebay skyrocketed by about a hundred dollars.

[Kitty Guo]

So let's see what happens this year.

[David Brown]

We wanted to dig into some trends in consumer behavior and how companies are responding to meet demand. So we're talking all things holiday shopping today and the repercussions for the American economy. I'm joined by Jordan Holman, a business reporter covering the retail industry and consumerism for the New York Times, and Kitty Guo, a writer for New York magazine's the Strategist covering beauty, fashion and gifts. All that's coming up. You know your team spends over half their time writing, and we all know how that happens. One confusing email turns into 12 confused replies and a meeting to get all lined up again. Well, Grammarly is a trusted AI writing partner that saves your company from miscommunication and all the wasted time and money that goes with it. What I love about Grammarly is that it doesn't just correct grammar, it helps you strike the right tone for your audience so you can improve both the substance and the style of your writing. And you know, four out out of five professionals say Grammarly helps them get buy in and action through their communication. Plus it integrates seamlessly across 500,000 apps and websites. So there's no cutting, no pasting, no context switching. Join over 70,000 teams and 30 million people who trust Grammarly to get results on the first try. Go to Grammarly.com enterprise and learn more Grammarly Enterprise Ready AI this episode is brought to you by State Farm. You've got to be kidding. It's something you might say when your small business has a problem, but that won't get you the help your business needs. What you should really say is something that can help. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Their agents are ready to help you with your claim to help you get back in business on the phone or in person. Your State Farm agent is there to help. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. From Wondery I'm David Brown and this is shopping in the Social Media Age for Business Wars. Jordan Holman. What's the best gift you've ever given? What about the best gift you've ever received?

[Jordan Holman]

So I would say the best gift I've ever received was when I was like four or five, my parents gave me a Fisher Price dollhouse for Christmas that I used all of the time. I love that dollhouse.

[David Brown]

Everyone's got one of those special gifts that they remember from when they were 4 or 5, you know, so yours was the Fisher Price dollhouse. What about the best gift you've ever given?

[Jordan Holman]

Well, when I think about that, one of the best gifts I would say I gave my parents was a few years ago during the pandemic. I went on Etsy and I got this handcrafted wooden plaque of the city of Chicago, where we're from. And I got it personalized to put a little star on the neighborhood where we're from. And it was like part of 30 years of them being in Chicago, but then also an anniversary gift for them. And so I see it anytime I come home. And I'm home right now, so it's.

[David Brown]

Hanging out and I'm like, this is wonderful. Those are great, Kitty, I'm not letting you off the hook. Kitty Guo, what about you? What's the best gift you've ever want to start with received?

[Kitty Guo]

Sure. Well, I think for me, I feel as if I have more than enough stuff already. So I really appreciate experiential gifts. There is a restaurant here that I really wanted to try that was very difficult to get reservations for because they open at 7 in the morning and they go really fast. I would never have gotten a reservation myself because I'm just not a morning person. And I have not woken up at 7am in years. But my partner managed to get one for my birthday, so I was very, very happy about that.

[David Brown]

Oh, that's so cool. What about the best gift you've ever given?

[Kitty Guo]

I like to think I'm a pretty good gift giver. Last year I got my partner a wallet because he mentioned that his was sort of coming apart at the seams. I found a small artisan leather worker in Youngstown, Ohio. I I got it personalized. It was all handmade, all hand stitched in his favorite color, green monogrammed with his initials. He loved it. He's using it and will probably be using it for years to come.

[David Brown]

Yeah, it's a lifelong gift. It's one of those treasures. That's wonderful, Kitty. In addition to working for the Strategist, you also have your own substack newsletter, worn in, worn out, where you talk about discoveries from scouting, independent makers and online vintage stores. Where do you go to search out these more eclectic finds? Where do you find things like, you know, the wallet or other wonderful gifts?

[Kitty Guo]

I do think social media is a big one. Every brand, of course, has a social media presence. So definitely Instagram is a large part of how I find things. Also, Reddit, I believe, is a really good source. I am scouring that subreddit buy it for life, always for recommendations for really well made, high quality goods. I really like having those sort of like peer recommendations from people who just have vetted things already and can give their like personal vouch for it.

[David Brown]

See, I get the Reddit approach because you do have that feedback loop, but sometimes I see on social media like Instagram or Pinterest or something like that, you see what look somewhat organic, but I'm just not so sure. I think sometimes some of those things are planted and I know that some people have really been burned. I'm not going to raise my hand here, but I'm curious. Jordan, have you ever done the social media route to find more eclectic stuff?

[Jordan Holman]

I have. Well, maybe eclectic's not the right word there, but social media has found me when I am already looking for things and then you go on Instagram and it's tracking you in that way.

[David Brown]

And how's that worked out for you?

[Jordan Holman]

I have ordered three things across Facebook and Instagram and every time I'm will I get this? You know, and I have, but it's just one of those things. I don't do it that often. But when you say eclectic, I would agree with the idea that it's kind of things that you Just see so much. It's sometimes hard to feel like, oh, this is a fine. No one else is getting this ad like I am.

[David Brown]

That's just it. It seems like there's something, maybe I'm wrong about this, but it seems like there's something of a backlash against the homogenous culture brought about by influencers. Do you think there's something like that going on here, Jordan?

[Jordan Holman]

Well, Even back in 2019, I remember talking to people about, they want to be de influenced, they want a de influencing movement. They don't want to see the same influencers hawking the same products and kind of getting back to, who can I go to for advice, that they didn't get a brand deal, that they just really like this? I think in some ways TikTok has provided that if it's not, you know, from an influencer. And then, like Kitty was saying, like, Reddit is really great for that. I think people have the assumption if they're going to Reddit, that's just a real person giving their reviews and their thoughts, and you can almost trust it a bit more.

[David Brown]

But that's just it. It's a real person giving their reviews and thoughts. I think that's a wonderful strategy. Any other ideas for trying to get real people's opinions here, Kitty?

[Kitty Guo]

I mean, I do think that people are sort of wising up to the influencer brand scheme. And I do think if a product is actually truly good, then it should be able to speak for itself. But obviously, too many times you'll see influencers just singing the praises of this or that, and it's because they got paid to. And then the average consumer will buy it and will be like, wait, this isn't really living up to the hype. But I do think people are looking more to curators, quote unquote, rather than influencers. They're looking for people whose tastes.

[David Brown]

Whose reputation is built on it.

[Kitty Guo]

Exactly. And they trust their taste. They trust that they're discerning and thoughtful people and won't sell you things that they don't like, put their weight behind 100%.

[David Brown]

In fact, Kitty, you confessed on your substack that even though editorial content about holiday shopping comes out as early as August. August. I mean, you feel better about dropping your recommendations in November. What do you think late summer's too early for a discussion of holiday giving or why is that?

[Kitty Guo]

Well, I mean, for me, the PR pitches for holiday gifting start rolling in around July and August, so it's sort of for my job. It's unavoidable to think about the holidays in the summer, but I do think the bulk of the shopping happens around Black Friday time in November. Or like maybe October, if you're really an early bird, but definitely November. December is the time when it's just foremost in everybody's minds. And summertime, everyone's trying to enjoy the last days of summer, trying to get as much warmth and sunshine as possible. It's not really something people are thinking about at that time.

[David Brown]

Yeah, I'm afraid that if I buy too early, I'm going to miss out on the deep discounts that they announce, like the day after Thanksgiving, that sort of thing. Jordan, what do you think is behind this push to move holiday content and marketing earlier and earlier?

[Jordan Holman]

The chili is a chicken or the egg situation?

[David Brown]

Yeah.

[Jordan Holman]

Like, are we seeing these deals earlier because retailers are putting them out earlier, so we're shopping earlier or retailers putting them out earlier because they know we're shop earlier. We want it in that way. But one of the big pushes is it allows retailers to just spread their sales across the season more easily. You know, historically, department store could get, you know, two thirds of their sales during the year in the fourth quarter. And so if you spread it out, get people to start there thinking about the holiday in late September, early October, then you can better gauge what they would say, their demand, what people want. If they sell out of a product, they still have a little bit more time to reorder it. So it helps operationally. But then the other argument I would say is you saw that people start buying Halloween stuff in July. People like buying things for the season.

[David Brown]

So why not give it to them early, I guess. But I would think that there might be a risk of consumers sort of getting holiday buying fatigue if we keep pushing it, pushing it, pushing it.

[Jordan Holman]

So I would say one thing. Walmart and Target and the like, they've all said, you know, as over the past few years, as people have pulled back on spending just across the board, one of the things that they see activates people is buying for seasonal holidays. People love costumes. People love like the doodads that you put around the house. So it actually is still a reliable category that people don't seem to have fatigue around. Right now.

[David Brown]

We're going to have to talk more about Walmart and Target and their prominent role in the holiday shopping season. But first we're going to take a break and when we come back, we're going to get into some specific trends in buying this year and whether quiet luxury is still driving purchases. Stick around. As business owners and managers, you use software for your business every day. You use one piece of software to manage your customers, another to manage your employees, another to manage your finances, and the list goes on. You buy these pieces independently and hope they fit neatly together like a puzzle. And then you find out the hard way that they don't. And you end up with a mess at the heart of your business operations. Does any of this sound familiar? Well, fortunately, Zoho offers a solution to this chaos. It's called Zoho One. Zoho One is a suite of around 50 pre integrated business applications that fit together beautifully. So instead of dealing with disparate software from multiple vendors with multiple contracts and price points, you deal with one vendor with all the pieces of the business software puzzle neatly put together, offered at a very attractive price. Now, if this sounds interesting to you, you gotta check out Zoho 1 at Zoho 1, that's Z O H O dot 1E. With Zoho, you're not just licensing apps, you're licensing peace of mind when it comes to finding the best financial products. Have you ever wished someone would do the heavy lifting for you? You know, take all that research off your plate? I sure have. And with NerdWallet's 2025 Best of Awards, well, that wish has just come true. The nerds already did the work for you, reviewing over 1,100 financial products like credit cards, savings accounts, and a whole lot more to bring you only the best of. You gotta check out the 2025 Best of Awards [e-mail] awards. Welcome back to Business Wars. My guests are Jordan Holman of the New York Times and Kitty Guo from New York Magazine. We've talked about what's driving people to buy gifts and how early marketers are targeting shoppers. Now let's turn to the kind of gifts that people are buying. There's a new trend that I want us to dive into. This is something called quiet luxury. Let's hear a clip from YouTube creator Cassie Thorpe. She put it like this.

[Jordan Holman]

Early last year, we sort of heard the mumblings of what would be a huge trend. And this was quiet luxury, also known as stealth wealth, also known as the old money aesthetic.

[Kitty Guo]

It had a number of different nicknames, but they all basically meant the same thing.

[Jordan Holman]

And what sort of started out as a little, a little candle of a trend turned into a bonfire with a few sort of like cultural moments that.

[Kitty Guo]

Helped it cement itself as something that was going to stay or at the very least be Talked about for quite a while.

[David Brown]

Kitty, can you explain this quiet luxury term? Where does it come from? Have you heard it before?

[Kitty Guo]

Yeah, I have. So I would say quiet luxury is sort of an understated vibe. It's got elegance. It's more concerned with timelessness and high quality as opposed to something very flashy or extravagant. I would say some examples of brands that are synonymous with the quiet luxury trend would be Kate or Bottega Veneta or the Row that sort of don't have the logos splashed all over them. They're just very Chicago streamlined silhouettes that are going to last for. For years and years.

[David Brown]

Sort of an understated elegance, it sounds like.

[Kitty Guo]

Yes, absolutely.

[David Brown]

Yeah, yeah. Jordan, are you seeing consumers stretch in terms of buying gifts? And I wonder how much inflation is a factor in shopping in 2024?

[Jordan Holman]

Well, in 2024, you're seeing less of that. The categories that would be like, attainable luxury. So if you think, like, of a coach or Kate Spade or whatnot, that category, it's not doing gangbusters like it earlier because you're seeing the bifurcation. People are either they can already buy the luxury and they will continue to buy that, or they've traded down and they're trying to find cheaper prices. So it's interesting where quiet luxury falls right now. Just like looking from a company standpoint, that companies actually have to, like, signal that this is luxury a little bit.

[David Brown]

Because people wanted not just getting cheap here, folks. Yeah, yeah. This is luxurious, but it's price conscious.

[Jordan Holman]

Yes, exactly. So that's kind of. Kind of troubled, the definition of quiet luxury.

[David Brown]

Kitty, what are some of the other major gifting trends right now?

[Kitty Guo]

I might even go so far as to say that trends are dead. I mean, I think.

[David Brown]

Oh, whoa, Hot take.

[Kitty Guo]

Ooh, hot take. I do think personalization at the moment is quite popular, such as gifting, like monogramming things. Bag charms are a very big thing right now because people want to decorate and accessorize their bags in ways that are reflective of their own personality. I think just because our algorithmically dictated consumer tastes have been flattened and are all very similar at the moment, we're looking for more ways to distinguish them for ourselves.

[David Brown]

I really like that idea of the monogram or the inscription. Something that's personalized because it doesn't often add a lot to the cost of the good, whatever that is, or the gift. But it does clearly communicate. This is special because I got it for you. You know what I mean?

[Kitty Guo]

Yeah, absolutely. And it's such an easy Way to make a gift seem a little more special.

[David Brown]

Yeah, yeah. Over the past few years, I mean, to your point about the trends, I know whether or not we're over them yet or not, certainly they've sped up with the introduction of TikTok into everyone's hands. How do you think that platform's changed the way folks shop? Kitty, what have you observed on that score?

[Kitty Guo]

I mean, TikTok definitely has the power to elevate certain brands and products. The peer to peer marketing is super effective. When you see a bunch of people who are the same age as you, the same circumstance as you, it's why all the tween girls have drunk Elephant and Sol de Janeiro and laneige on their Christmas wish list. And it's why every influencer has an octobuddy on the back of their phone. And on TikTok, you can really see a product in action and see how it works before you buy it. So I'm sure the brands that get anointed by the algorithm are thrilled about it. But I obviously do also think that it has that flattening effect where everyone just ends up lusting after the same thing.

[David Brown]

TikTok shop has certainly made it easier to purchase gifts directly on the platform. I mean, easier than ever before. I mean, you just watch this video of a creator telling you why you have to get this latest what skincare tool or whatever it is and tap once and you've purchased it and you haven't even had to leave the app. Jordan, you have any data on just how many consumers are actually buying from TikTok shop?

[Jordan Holman]

Well, we know that TikTok shop started last year, but it's still a huge ramp up. I would say that it's unclear exactly how many people are using it right now, but just anecdotally a lot of people are going there first, seeing what there is to buy and then maybe, you know, they're not buying. But at least that is an impression that companies are looking at. I would also say the other things for brands who sell in TikTok shops, the ones I've talked to, they said that's a huge boost to their sales and in a way where they don't have to spend on marketing because TikTok shops, the way that the business model works is actually cheaper for them to sell there versus being on Google or like having to market on Instagram.

[David Brown]

See, I notice that it seems to. Oh boy, I'm about to reveal something. It seems like I buy more than I ever intended to and I'm wondering If that's not because TikTok has this, that it's kind of pushing us for those impulse buys, you know, whether we're buying for someone else or maybe for herself. Right. I mean, is, do you think that's what's happening with TikTok Shop, that there are more impulse purchases there?

[Jordan Holman]

That's definitely a function of TikTok shop. And you've even seen other competitors try to fall in line because I see that people are impulse buyers. So recently Amazon launched Haul, which is, a lot of people say a competitor to Temu, but it's the same idea, like, see this cool doodad, buy it quickly, don't think too much of it and everything's low priced. It feels inconsequential. But you know, if you keep doing that over time, you might look back and say, wow, I spent a lot.

[David Brown]

Yeah. How do you think this is affecting consumer shopping habits? I mean, we've seen the prices of things that creators are promoting rise just because they've gone viral. Right.

[Jordan Holman]

It's definitely a struggle for brands who might be small brands to handle rapid demand. So if they go viral, then they have to start fulfilling all of these orders and they might be just a sole proprietor. That's like a huge burden. So that's one dynamic to it. But I think on the consumer side, it just reinforces that everything should be convenient for us, it should be quick. If you want it now, you can get it now. And I think that's a huge mindset shift that's been happening over years, but it's sped up over the past few years.

[David Brown]

Kitty, you think that's right?

[Kitty Guo]

Oh, yes, absolutely. TikTok shop just makes it so seamless and frictionless to add stuff to your cart and check out same thing for Instagram shopping as well. You see an ad and within 30 seconds you could have it on the way to your door. So it really facilitates the sort of mindless scrolling and buying without really thinking about it. You could be scrolling at 3am and wake up the next morning and be like, what have I added to my cart last night.

[David Brown]

I learned a little tactic. By the way, I put it in the cart before I actually hit buy. Now, you know, it's, it's, that's something I've got to do now and I give myself 24 hours, otherwise I miss in deep trouble 30 days later. Coming up, we're going to sort out the winners and the losers of the 2024 gifting battle. Spoiler here. Target did not hit their mark. We're going to talk about that and more When Business wars returns, Imagine getting a message from your favorite brand that feels like it was created just for you. Chances are they're using Attentive, the SMS and email marketing platform designed to help brands build and connect with their IDE audience. See, Attentive helps marketers create unique messages for every subscriber, transforming the consumer shopping experience and maximizing marketing performance. But how does it work? Well, you see, Attentive's AI learns what subscribers actually want based on their real time interactions with your brand. That means it customizes the content, tone and timing of every message so they always resonate. Are you ready to take customers on a journey created just for them? Visit attentive.combusinesswars to learn more. What separates the true leaders from the rest? It's not just vision and ambition, it's the courage to take the road less traveled. For those with a palpable passion for life who lead by example, there's the Range Rover Sport. The Range Rover Sport is a new dimension of sporting prowess where sophisticated refinement meets visceral power. A dynamic launch delivers maximal torque for increased straight line acceleration. And with rapid DC charging and an estimated all electric range of 48 miles, the range Rover Sport Plug in electric hybrid delivers thrilling performance with an electric edge. Build your Range Rover Sport@Land RoverUSA.com Visit LandRoverUSA.com to configure your Range Rover Sport. Explore the Range Rover Sport@Land RoverUSA.com hey, welcome back to business wars. Jordan, you've said that Walmart's a bellwether of US Consumer trends. And you also noted that it was reporting higher than expected sales. But you also reported that another discount retailer, Target, was hurting this holiday season. What's the story there? Why the tale of two cities with these two competitors?

[Jordan Holman]

So Walmart and Target, we always kind of put them in the same category. But I think the past few weeks showed one big difference that Walmart has that Target probably wishes it had is a larger grocery business. So Target is more discretionary, so they sell more candles and pillows and all of that compared to groceries. And that's where they saw the weakness. People are just not spending as much and they're not spending on big items like TVs, as Target said, they're spending more on vases. And so that's one of the reasons that saw weakness. And it kind of just rattled a lot of investors because it's like, wait, what does this mean for the economy? What does it mean for the consumer base? But I Think a big, the main thing here is that they're selling more things that you can kind of hold off on compared to with Walmart. You got to walk in and get your groceries every week.

[David Brown]

That's a really important point. But you reported that Walmart's success is not just, you know, targeting. Oops, I said it. Not just aiming for consumers with limited budgets, but it's also driven by more traditionally higher end consumers too, which I found to be somewhat surprising. Tell us more about that.

[Jordan Holman]

That's right. I mean, over the past few years with inflation, a lot of higher end consumers flock to Walmart for cheaper groceries. And what Walmart has done successfully, which they haven't been able to do in past downtimes in the economy, is hold on to those higher income shoppers. So we're talking about people who make over 100k and more. And Walmart has done that by improving their delivery time. So getting things to you same day or next day. They've upgraded their fashion so it looks better basically and you, you want to have it. And then they've also just added more things that a lot of people say looks like Target, so they have more vegan options and just brighter, you know, food in the canned aisles. And so all of these things together give people a reason to shop at Walmart, not just for the low prices.

[David Brown]

Kitty, do you have a sense of whether or to what extent these brick and mortar stores are harnessing social media to get shoppers literally into their door?

[Kitty Guo]

Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, I do think that there's a nostalgia brewing for in person shopping. I actually just worked on a story for the latest holiday issue of New York magazine. What it was like to go shopping in New York during the heyday of the department store when Saks and Macy's and all the Fifth Avenue stores would go all out for Christmas. And there were so many people in the comments reminiscing about that time and wishing we could go back. But I think that any brick and mortar store that has like a, a well curated, well organized display will always hook in person shoppers. But the convenience of online shopping is obviously hard to compete with. I do see a lot of brands posting their own gift guides on social media as well to showcase the breadth of products that they have in store and just to sort of hook in consumers who maybe wouldn't have stopped into the brick and mortar.

[David Brown]

You know, I think a lot of people do discount, no pun intended, the emotional factor there. And you talk about the nostalgia. Kitty Jordan, have you ever nostalgically yearned to go back into the store. You know, the whole, you know, let's go to Saks and let's go to Macy's, that sort of thing. Has that ever been part of the shopping appeal for you come holiday season?

[Jordan Holman]

Definitely. And hearing the music in store and all this, and smelling the scents in store, I think it's hard to tie, like, to break apart the holiday season with that shopping experience. Cause that's always kind of been part of it. And this is why retailers, they really lean into this time of year. In August, I had the opportunity to go down to Florida to hear how Walmart plans for the holiday season. And a big part of it was, was that merchandising, was that nostalgia reminding parents, like, oh, you played with Legos growing up. Let's put that, you know, towards the front of our toy aisle. So a lot of it is nostalgia and just knowing that, yes, people will be shopping online, but maybe let's put things in the store that's a bit whimsical that it kind of reminds them of something. So it's a different experience.

[David Brown]

Yeah. Kitty, thinking about your gifting guides, when you're making your list and checking it twice, do you think about those items you can buy buy in stores versus the ones you have to buy online? I mean, are you pushing folks more toward in store shops in your guides or not so much?

[Kitty Guo]

Well, definitely. At the strategist, we are E Comm focused, so everything that we recommend can be bought online. But for me personally and for my newsletter, I love recommending small makers, independent creators, people who maybe don't have as much of a ability to scale and create things that are very small, independent, and personalized. So that's an aspect that I prefer to promote personally. But at the strategist, it's definitely all about the ability to shop online.

[David Brown]

Yeah. Yeah. Let's fast forward if we can. Just coming out of Christmas, what about next year? What do you think holiday gifting will look like this time in 2025? Are either of you seeing any trends on the horizon that may affect the way we gift and shop for gifts?

[Kitty Guo]

I honestly don't see us going back anytime soon. I feel like every year the sales just start earlier and it just becomes even more of an event with a capital E. This year is my fourth Black Friday with the strategist, and our Cyber Week game plan just sort of gets more expansive every year. We didn't even used to call it Cyber Week. It just used to be just Black Friday. So maybe another year or two, we'll be calling it Cyber Month.

[David Brown]

Honestly, Jordan, what do you think about 20, 25? Maybe less. What's actually gonna happen and maybe what you wish would happen?

[Jordan Holman]

Well, one thing that I am really curious of is when Cyber Monday will be a bigger day than Black Friday. Even though Black Friday has flattened like it's not the peak anymore, people say it's more of a hill when it comes to sales for retailers. It's still so part of our culture, but so is online shopping, and it's just so convenient. So I'm always looking at that balance of, like, what does Black Friday mean anymore? So I think that's one thing that I'll be keeping my eye on next year.

[David Brown]

Well, before we let either of you go, how about your own gifting tips and tricks? Either of you want to unveil some secrets that the rest of us might be able to benefit from? Kitty?

[Kitty Guo]

Yeah, actually, I have a lot to say here. My personal gifting philosophy is to sort of just stick with stuff that's fun, frivolous, and delightful. Just no boring, everyday household items. I feel like no one really wants to unwrap a new vacuum on Christmas. I mean, unless your giftee specifically tells you, I want this vacuum, please do not get me anything except this vacuum, I don't think you should get them a vacuum. I also think that something that's fun and delightful is just a little unexpected is the way to go. Consumables are always good as long as you know about any food allergies or restrictions that they might have. I think in the end that gifting can be a little bit fraught in a way. I mean, the holidays themselves obviously always come with a good amount of baggage, obviously. And the cultural expectations around gifting do play a part in that. There's like an element of if you receive a bad gift, quote unquote, you sort of feel unseen or unknown by this person who's ostensibly close to you. And I think that's partly why so many people turn to gift guides or want suggestions because they just really want to get it right. But in the end, I don't know your giftee. You do. So if you really want to get them a good gift, I would just suggest paying close attention to them year round and noting down their likes and dislikes, or maybe even just keeping a document going and jotting down anything that they mention offhandedly that they really like so that when it's go time and it's holiday season, you already have a.

[David Brown]

Bunch of ideas gathered that's great and very practical advice. I really like that. Jordan, what about you? Any gifting tips and tricks?

[Jordan Holman]

Yeah, I love that. So I'm a huge book lover. I have friends and family who also love books. So during this season I always try to shop at independent bookstores. Just knowing that sales there can make a huge difference, especially during this time of year. It's a huge book selling time. And I would just also say that there's a lot of people. It feels like there's a huge trend of people just not wanting more stuff. So also if you can think about your friend who loves going on vacations thinking about giving a gift card for that, try to think outside the box. Kind of echoing what Kitty said about just noticing the people in your life and what they like and try to think about something that maybe isn't more stuff.

[David Brown]

Jordan Holman is a retail reporter for the New York Times. And Jordan, how can folks follow your reporting?

[Jordan Holman]

So you can find me on xordanjournals I spell it J O R D Y N or Instagram J O J O H O L M E Y.

[David Brown]

And Kitty Guo writes for the Strategist from New York Magazine. Kitty, where can folks read more about your guides?

[Kitty Guo]

You can find me writing hestrategist, you can find me on Instagram itguo and you can also also subscribe to my newsletter Worn in Worn out on Substack.

[David Brown]

Kitty Jordan, thanks so much for sharing the gift of your insights with Business wars listeners and Happy New Year.

[Kitty Guo]

Happy New Year.

[Jordan Holman]

Happy New Year to you too.

[David Brown]

Coming up in our next season. Boeing used to lead the $400 billion aviation industry. Now the American icon is a company on the brink of unravel. If you like Business wars, you can binge all episodes early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey from Wondery. This is shopping in the social media age for Business War. I'm your host. David Brown. Emily Frost and Kelly Kyle produced this episode. Our producer is Grant Rutter. Our audio engineer is Sergio Enriquez. Our managing producer is Desi Blaylock. Our senior managing producer is Callum Plews. Our senior producers are Emily Frost and Dave Schilling. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman and Marshall Louie. For wondering Life can be chaotic if you're running a retail business. Don't let disorganized order fulfillment add to the chaos. Use ShipStation instead. With ShipStation, you never have to worry about shipping and fulfillment again. Whether you're running a business out of your garage or you have multiple warehouses, shipstation is ideal for every phase of your business growth. Save time with one login for all your stores and by automating repetitive tasks. Plus, you'll save money with the best shipping rates from global carriers. Shipstation's industry leading features help you deliver a better customer experience. They'll get accurate and faster shipments, along with automated tracking updates with your branding. And with up to 88% off UPS and USPS rates and up to 90% off FedEx rate rates, ShipStation is the fastest and most affordable way to ship. Calm the chaos. Switch to ShipStation today. Start a free trial at shipstation.com audio that's shipstation.com audio.